Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Posted (2 years 5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quite a massive scale and seems to be getting worse. I wonder how they can get themselves out of this mess. Seems like they need to invest alot in their power grid or face social/economic issues.

India's power grid crisis deepens

A massive power breakdown has hit India for a second day running, leaving more than half the country without power.

Officials said the northern and eastern grids had both collapsed. All Delhi metro services have been halted and staff are trying to evacuate trains.

Monday's power failure caused severe disruption and travel chaos across northern India.

It was unclear why the grid collapsed but the power minister said some states may have been taking too much power.

Sushil Kumar Shinde said power would be restored in "another 90 minutes".

After Monday's cut, engineers managed to restore electricity to the northern grid by the evening, but at 01:05pm (0735 GMT) on Tuesday, it collapsed again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-19060279

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quite unfortunate. I hope power is restored swiftly!


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7860 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

Personally, I would have gone with the millions that Air India spends on parked 777s, but to each his own...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.


User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 15 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 15 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20377 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected

Who, of course, can't hear you until it's over.   

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 4034 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.

You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7860 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.


User currently offlineFaddypainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure  

User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago.

Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate? Perhaps not as woefully so as the Indian one, but still far from advanced.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

An interesting article which goes some way to explaining the situation of India's electricity problem.

Day Two of India's Blackout Hits Half the Population

Northern India’s electricity returned with a pop, as light bulbs in south Delhi exploded, refrigerators groaned from the surge in power, and electricity sockets spat out smoke.

Twice in two days, much of India lost electricity in back-to-back grid failures, with massive traffic and railway snarls.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-blackout-hits-half-the-population

As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those .


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3983 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Faddypainter (Reply 10):
I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure

Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.

You can place fail safes for 99% of "credible situations" - but no matter how sophisticated a system is there is always a chance that a perfect storm of events occur that you are just not able to plan for.

Now - depending on the system "sophistication" .. they might not be covered for 99% of the faults, but for only 75%.

It is part of of the post-mortum to understand how this happened - and how (or even IF) it could have been prevented.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3976 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate?

Not necessarily. One of big contributors was trees and human errors

"2:02 p.m. The first of several 345 kV overhead transmission lines in northeast Ohio fails due to contact with a tree in Walton Hills, Ohio.

2:14 p.m. An alarm system fails at FirstEnergy's control room and is not repaired.

3:05 p.m. A 345 kV transmission line known as the Chamberlin-Harding line fails in Parma, south of Cleveland, due to a tree"

... and the "perfect storm" begins..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northea...lackout_of_2003#Sequence_of_events



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 14):
trees

That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3946 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.

You can hardly blame the tree trimming mistakes of a company and cast a "inadequate" blanket on the US Grid.

Remember it wants just a tree - that was one of the contributing factors. If the tree would have fallen even minutes later the outcome could have been different,

Trees hit lines all the time - you font see blackouts like this every time that happens.

Again, outages like that have many factors contributing

[Edited 2012-07-31 14:29:04]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!

Since when did they pass China up in being most populous?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 3807 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.


User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Where any of these at night? any satellite pictures?


Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

The grid is slowly coming online. It happens, and there is lot of factors. There is more than 10% gap between supply and demand. There is shortage of coal. There are problems acquiring land for power plants, from acquisition costs to environment concerns. Plus power is sold at subsidized rates to many in rural India, so most of the power companies are under heavy losses. The list can go on. But on the positive side, there are many more power plants coming up. So in another 5-10 years time, we may get rid of power shortages.

As regards to outages, in 2006, power was down in Greater Seattle area of Washington state here in US, and my home was without power for seven days! Yup, that is right! And it is much more worse off here in US because almost everywhere electricity is heavily used. Couldn't make a cup of coffee at ho, me! There was gridlocks on the streets, restaurants were closed, no ATMs, no gas stations. Took two-three days for power to come back up in many areas. Unfortunately for me, a tree had uprooted the powerlines near my apartment, so we were some of the last people to get power back.

At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20377 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

If they don't have power and running water, then a blackout won't affect them much, will it?

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's not the point. The point is that they are equipped to live without electricity for a time. We in this country melt down without electricity.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those.

Actually, for power disrupted I bet the 2003 US/Canada outage was larger. And for land area affected by the disruption, I wouldn't be surprised they are around the same, a very large region was affected across North America. Population affected of course there is no comparison, India just has so many more people in a similar land area.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!

No, not really, mostly Enron/unethical traders. The regulation may have had flaws but that doesn't mean "Go ahead, f**k us", it just doesn't. There was no real excuse for what the traders did, for the manipulation of the market.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.


Correct. Many widespread black-outs occur because more than one event or action happens at the same time or in sequence to cause the black-out. See the write-up on the 1977 NYC Black-out. Lightning strikes followed by some mis-communication led to the black-out.

Basically, absent a large scale, external influence (storm, earthquake, EMP, etc.) in a properly designed and maintained system, a wide-spread black-out happens only when all the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up. Any individual event would not cause a wide-spread outage.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.


Any system can fail. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. You can not proof a system against every threat, especially a threat that you haven't seen before and only have a theoretical understanding of.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 21):
At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least


That statement right there indicates to me that the Indian power grid is inadequate to its needs. If there are scheduled outages to manage load, then there should really be a plan in place to increase capacity, not just shed load. Load shedding is a temporary fix.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
We in this country melt down without electricity.


Or freeze. We had a power outage here in January 2009 after an ice storm a) brought trees down on power lines and b) powerlines snapped from the weight of the ice. Some areas were without power for 5 or 6 days. We lucked out and didn't lose power. We had 16 people stay at the house for a few days.

We also had an extended, wide spread power outage when we had high winds from Hurricane Ike blast through the area in 2008. We did lose power for 6 days. It was a pain in the ass, but the weather was cool, the kids' school still had power. I would shower at the YMCA (cue the Village People) and did a lot of barbecuing. I was able to snag a rather large supply of dry ice and some coolers , so I was able to keep most of the meat cold. The beer was a problem, so I switched to bourbon.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (2 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):

Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade,



Hardly.


Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):

but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.


What you're thinking of is called a Coronal Mass Ejection. Not quite a solar storm, but hardly something to be brushed aside if we're ever in the wrong place at the wrong time, along our orbit. "Normal" occurrences in the range 100 Billion or so kg of mass are no big deal per se. But we have witnessed plenty of incidences that are far more severe. We will see what happens one day, no doubt...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7860 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (2 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's my point the govt spent billions on nukes and is spending large on defense yet the average Indian lives in squallor

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
If they don't have power and running water, then a blackout won't affect them much, will it?

Might not affect them at home but what about at work, travelling to and from work, this will hit everyone.


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
That's my point the govt spent billions on nukes and is spending large on defense yet the average Indian lives in squallor

One cannot trade defence for economy or vice versa. India still spends very less on defence (~2% of GDP) on defence compared to our neighbours like Pakistan and China which spend more than 5% of their GDP on defence, or even other western countries. Given the neighbourhood we are in, we can't affect to be lax. Otherwise, India would have succumbed to the "death by thousand cuts" strategy adopted by one of our neighbours to defeat India. That is OT for now. Countries like Australia, Canada etc which don't face any threats spend lots on defence, either for prestige or to act as representative of an imperial power  . They might as well give it to the poor in their countries  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
That statement right there indicates to me that the Indian power grid is inadequate to its needs. If there are scheduled outages to manage load, then there should really be a plan in place to increase capacity, not just shed load. Load shedding is a temporary fix.

As I had mentioned in my post, there is a gap of 10% between demand and supply. Even though India is adding capacity at a high rate, it is not sufficient. I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 27):
As I had mentioned in my post, there is a gap of 10% between demand and supply. Even though India is adding capacity at a high rate, it is not sufficient. I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.

Please don't take offense. I read your post and understand that India is doing what it can. But, this 10% gap didn't appear yesterday. It was years in the making.

I see the same thing happening here. As our population grows our power demands will increase; especially, if the the growth results in suburban sprawl (not sure that's the case right now with the current economic situation). But, we are not building new power plants, in fact, we taking coal fired generators off-line. I'm afraid that 5 or 10 years from now, the US will suffer widesrpead, rolling black-outs because we're cutting capacity. Instead of these one-off events caused by external factors, we'll be dealing with planned outages.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 27):
I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.

Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

.

.


How much do you think this kind of stuff contributes? How do you fix all the "loss" that is going with a lot of this?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14144 posts, RR: 62
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 3782 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 5):
Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.

I find this snide remark by our Chinese forum member way out of place. So in the People´s Republic of China everything works fine because a strict and paternalistic government, which knows what is best for the people, takes care of everything?

Jan


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7860 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):
Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

Would really hate to be a linesman in India.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 32, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):
Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

 Wow!  Wow! And to think I didnt like the one they put on my land .



I'm always prepared for the rare event we have an outage. Usually its due to a bad storm and majority of times its fixed within 2-3 hours. Just in case I have a stock pile of coal for the coal fire and torches. I also got a gas hob in my kitchen so can cope quite well if it ever goes on for a longer period.


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):

Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

How much do you think this kind of stuff contributes? How do you fix all the "loss" that is going with a lot of this?

Tugg

For one, I think they are telephone cables, that are usually drawn from a pole outside on the street to the homes , and I see some cable TV lines there too mixed in  
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Please don't take offense. I read your post and understand that India is doing what it can. But, this 10% gap didn't appear yesterday. It was years in the making.

Nope, no offence taken. I am more frustrated than you are because it directly affects us  
Yes, the politicians know that the situataion is unsustainable and have known it for a long time. They just want to kick the problem down so that whoever is at the helm during the collapse can take care of it.
The problem is that during elections, these politicians promise free power to some segements of the society, like farmers etc. However, they don't have a plan to make up for these subsidies. So many of the power transmission and distribution companies are in losses because the government doesn't fully pay up for the subsidies offered. So they cannot invest in upgrading their networks.

And new power plants have their own share of problems. Hydel and nuclear power plants cause all sorts of NIMBY protests. Coal is getting expensive, and India needs to import it a lot. And there have been NIMBY protests even for the coal plants due to the pollution they cause. Add the greedy politicians to the mix, and you have the situation in India today.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 34, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3650 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 23):
No, not really, mostly Enron/unethical traders. The regulation may have had flaws but that doesn't mean "Go ahead, f**k us", it just doesn't. There was no real excuse for what the traders did, for the manipulation of the market.

Morally, you are right. But for being dumb and/or lazy California regulators and legislators are still at fault.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
Morally, you are right. But for being dumb and/or lazy California regulators and legislators are still at fault.

yes - you are right.. they should have been regulating more.

That is is change from your usually - "less regulation:" is good mantra.

I guess residents of CA are also at fault for using electricty..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 36, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 35):
yes - you are right.. they should have been regulating more.

That is is change from your usually - "less regulation:" is good mantra.

That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 35):
I guess residents of CA are also at fault for using electricty..

If you have nothing constructive to say. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3594 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

Care to give some details?

This ought to be good

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:35:17]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 38, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
Care to give some details?

"- Staff concludes that supply-demand
imbalance, flawed market design and
inconsistent rules made possible significant
market manipulation as delineated in final
investigation report. Without underlying
market dysfunction, attempts to manipulate
the market would not be successful."

http://www.ferc.gov/industries/elect...act/wec/enron/summary-findings.pdf

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
This ought to be good

REALLY good!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3577 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
"- Staff concludes that supply-demand
imbalance, flawed market design and
inconsistent rules made possible significant
market manipulation as delineated in final
investigation report. Without underlying
market dysfunction, attempts to manipulate
the market would not be successful."

Yes.. that means that stronger regulation was needed.. not less

How do you fix "market dysfunction"? By taking rules away or placing stronger rules?

It depends on which rules right? since you are an expert on the matter -which specific rules cause the "dysfunction"?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

REALLY good!

Indeed!

[Edited 2012-08-01 09:05:27]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 40, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 39):
Yes.. that means that stronger regulation was needed.. not less

I thought this was supposed to be good? I am highly disappointed.

The regulations were at fault, just as I said. You can choose to confuse immediate versus fundamental causes all day long, but you will not confuse me.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 39):
Indeed!

So much for that. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 41, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3574 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's not the point. The point is that they are equipped to live without electricity for a time. We in this country melt down without electricity.

O RLY??  

There are 300 million middle class people of the 600 million affected that live in concrete homes and high-rises which can become suffocating when the power goes out. Power outages may be common in India, but prolonged systemic blackouts are not.

. July in Delhi is unbelievably hot. The only fallback they have are generators and UPS's that are good for a few hours - after that, it's an inferno. The other 300 million are also affected by the lack of public amenities. Hospitals, trains and buses are affected too. No electricity also means no water in a lot of cases.

The cause of this historic blackout is till unknown, so we should be careful of jumping to conclusions. No doubt the power grid and infrastructure in India is woefully inadequate, but this is something else.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3540 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):

The regulations were at fault, just as I said. You can choose to confuse immediate versus fundamental causes all day long, but you will not confuse me.

What specific regulations are you complaining about? Which "fundamental" regulation caused this?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
I thought this was supposed to be good? I am highly disappointed.

Me too ! Here i was thinking you were informed in the matter. Oh Well..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 43, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 42):
What specific regulations are you complaining about? Which "fundamental" regulation caused this?

The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 42):
Me too ! Here i was thinking you were informed in the matter. Oh Well..

You are blaming market dysfunciton on the free market, despite the fact that these dysfunctions were caused by regulations. And despite the fact that obviously there was no free market at work, given the regulatory environment imposed.

You are not even being honest in this discussion, let alone well informed.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 44, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3467 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Ohh so.. every single regulation was to blame?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Yes- and you are making them the poor victims the circumstances..Boo hoo..

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
And despite the fact that obviously there was no free market at work, given the regulatory environment imposed.

For the third (or is it forth time?) show me how.

Describe the regulatory environment that cause these poor souls to lie and say that a power plant was under maintenance to artificiality bring up the cost of power.

"Enron CEO Kenneth Lay mocked the efforts by the California State government to thwart the practices of the energy wholesalers, saying, "In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money.

Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[6][7] Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value.

"The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[9] The crisis cost $40 to $45 billion.[10]

"Enron traded in energy derivatives specifically exempted from regulation by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 45, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

On its face, that comment is ludicrous. The regulations didn't "cause" what happened. They may have accidentally "allowed" it but it was caused by traders operating in unethical ways, working to manipulate and defraud the market.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

It was the Enron traders! If it was as you say then why didn't EVERY traders do it? Why? Because it was wrong and it was market manipulation and was unethical. If it was as yup state then every other trader was stupid but the fact is that the Enron Traders went out of business because of their corrupt business practices while most of the rest of the market continued and prospered.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 46, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Ohh so.. every single regulation was to blame?

Even a single regulation can have a big enough impact to reshape the environment.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Yes- and you are making them the poor victims the circumstances..Boo hoo..

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I never said or ever implied such a thing.




Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
For the third (or is it forth time?) show me how.

I am not doing the leg work for you. I already posted one link, it's up to you now to inform yourself.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Describe the regulatory environment that cause these poor souls to lie and say that a power plant was under maintenance to artificiality bring up the cost of power.

"Enron CEO Kenneth Lay mocked the efforts by the California State government to thwart the practices of the energy wholesalers, saying, "In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money.

Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[6][7] Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value.

"The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[9] The crisis cost $40 to $45 billion.[10]

"Enron traded in energy derivatives specifically exempted from regulation by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. "

You should really do your homework - and make sure you understand it - before you go out making bold statements.

Regulatory environment that caused them to lie??? That just screams you are not paying any attention to the issue.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 47, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
On its face, that comment is ludicrous. The regulations didn't "cause" what happened. They may have accidentally "allowed" it but it was caused by traders operating in unethical ways, working to manipulate and defraud the market.

That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

We live in a world where people sometimes make unethical choices. Knowing this, you can't exonerate a system that is vulnerable to these character flaws.

I assure you that if a CFO implements a poor system to manage company cash and something gets stolen, yes, the government will send the criminal to jail - but the shareholders will place the blame squarely on the CFO's failure and will want his head for failing to protect what belongs to them.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 48, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

Boy, you are great at making my point! Thanks!

I am not "exonerating" the regulations or the legislators that created them. But can you tell me how many other traders did this too? And if it is "OK", and the regulations fault, why didn't they do it (or why didn't their companies fire them for not doing it)?

But again, thanks for making my point so well!  

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-01 16:32:48]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 49, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3413 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
Even a single regulation can have a big enough impact to reshape the environment.

For this case - mention one. (Fifth time asking now?)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
I am not doing the leg work for you. I already posted one link, it's up to you now to inform yourself.

One link that does not show anything. You are the one trying to make a point. Burden of proof is on you..

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
Without underlying
market dysfunction,

What created this "dysfunction?" Lack of regulation and oversight? or too much of it? Its your story - finish it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
Regulatory environment that caused them to lie??? That just screams you are not paying any attention to the issue

That is what you have been saying all along. "Lazy" and "dumb" regulator cause the crisis..

What percentage of blame do you put on the traders? 50% ? 10%?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

Right - and in this case the "lock" are regulations to keep everything in check. You choose not to have regulations or not have the proper ones you car gets stolen



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
I find this snide remark by our Chinese forum member way out of place. So in the People´s Republic of China everything works fine because a strict and paternalistic government, which knows what is best for the people, takes care of everything?

First of all, my background has nothing to do with this. Gets a little personal doesn't it? Based on your other replies, you do seem to have a habit of getting personal.

Second of all, bringing in China or Chinese into otherwise a thread about India, is off the topic. If you are interested in a China vs India topic, open a new thread and I'd be happy to chime in.

Thirdly, Why can't I question their political system?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14144 posts, RR: 62
Reply 51, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 50):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
I find this snide remark by our Chinese forum member way out of place. So in the People´s Republic of China everything works fine because a strict and paternalistic government, which knows what is best for the people, takes care of everything?

First of all, my background has nothing to do with this. Gets a little personal doesn't it? Based on your other replies, you do seem to have a habit of getting personal.

Second of all, bringing in China or Chinese into otherwise a thread about India, is off the topic. If you are interested in a China vs India topic, open a new thread and I'd be happy to chime in.

Thirdly, Why can't I question their political system?

So why this remark?

Quoting B2443 (Reply 5):
Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.


To me it looks like :

Democracy = inefficient government

Centrally controlled government and economy = high efficiency and thing like the power failure won´t happen (or at least won´t be made public)

You have in the past many times defended the authoritarian ways of the Chinese government.


Jan

[Edited 2012-08-02 09:04:39]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20377 posts, RR: 59
Reply 52, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
You have in the past many times defended the authoritarian ways of the Chinese government.

Perhaps he's concerned that if he doesn't, they might come for him.


User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
To me it looks like emocracy = inefficient government

You said it. But to me, not necessarily. Without $$$, you are just not going to be efficient, regardless what system you have.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Centrally controlled government and economy = high efficiency and thing like the power failure won´t happen (or at least won´t be made public)

And you said it again, not me. You should really ask the question why it happened in India as it has the superior political system, for 60 years, over China. And my question is as the largest democracy in the world, what the hell have they been doing for the people? They make China look a lot better, at least for now.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
You have in the past many times defended the authoritarian ways of the Chinese government.

Timeout here, I am not defending anyone. It's just I am disappointed and am constantly asking why a superior system as claimed by many isn't working as it should. Besides letting people vote and have all the 'freedoms', what else do they do for their people? Again, this is a topic about India, not China. So I am going to leave my criticism of China elsewhere.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 52):
Perhaps he's concerned that if he doesn't, they might come for him.

what an a**. If you don't know how to contribute, just stop.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 54, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 53):
You should really ask the question why it happened in India as it has the superior political system, for 60 years, over China.

No one said democracy was a "superior system". A philosopher-king has long been considered the "best" form of government as the "father" (or mother quite frankly) will take care his "kids". But the truth sooner or later people are grown ups and grown ups need to be independent and make their own decisions and succeed or fail by them. And they will sooner or later fight their "parents" for that.

If you recall, Winston Churchill made one of the most famous statements on it: "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

It is simply better because the people at least have a say in what happens to them.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 53):
Timeout here, I am not defending anyone. It's just I am disappointed and am constantly asking why a superior system as claimed by many isn't working as it should. Besides letting people vote and have all the 'freedoms', what else do they do for their people?

And this is where this part of the discussions end.... you obviously have no grasp of the fact that FREEDOM is THE thing that a democracy provides to it's people (provided a good Constitution/whatever is written and followed). You apparently don't grasp that FREEDOM to make decisions for themselves, their nation, and society, even freedom to fail, is the most important thing a government can offer.

Freedom is very important, the most important thing a government can provide (yes even more important than electricity).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 54):
No one said democracy was a "superior system".
Quoting tugger (Reply 54):
It is simply better because the people at least have a say in what happens to them.

a little contradictory one might think...

Quoting tugger (Reply 54):
Freedom is very important, the most important thing a government can provide (yes even more important than electricity).

There goes my original comment and obviously MD11 doesn't agree with you.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 56, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 55):
a little contradictory one might think...

Of course one might think it, it is! Democracy can very much be contradictory! But the fact is we are talking about a system of government, not a company or factory. We aren't talking about "superior" per se, all systems are basically the same but democracies allow people to have a voice in their lives and in how they are governed. That is what make's it better (if you value freedom).

Quoting B2443 (Reply 55):
There goes my original comment and obviously MD11 doesn't agree with you.

??? I doubt that.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 56):
Of course one might think it, it is!

I meant your comments were contradicting to each other.

Quoting tugger (Reply 56):
??? I doubt that.

Read my original comment again. I am not disagreeing with in that some people like yourself consider freedoms are more important then electricity. Nothing's wrong with that. But you can't expect everyone to think that way and agree with you in everything. Important thing is whether the 600mil Indians agree with that as THEY are the people that are suffering from the inconveniences, not you or me.

[Edited 2012-08-03 10:47:17]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 58, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3024 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 49):

Burden of proof is indeed on me, and I have provided enough information for you to educate yourself. But there is absolutely nothing I can do if you refuse to lift a finger to educate yourself.

And no, I refuse to spoon feed you.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3015 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 58):
Burden of proof is indeed on me, and I have provided enough information for you to educate yourself. But there is absolutely nothing I can do if you refuse to lift a finger to educate yourself.

Hmm no you haven't.

But -as the kids say - whatevs... i have been around a.net long enough to know that when people throw out this kind of response its a last ditch effort to conceal (and thereby accept) their own lack of evidence when debating a point.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 60, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 59):

Sure I have. And you can also do a google search for more links if you need more info.

What I haven't gotten from you is a single reply that indicates you even looked into the issue. No specific questions about the investigation, no points trying to refute the FERC's findings, absolutely nothing. . . So no, I will not be putting any any extra effort until you show me you are willing to do the same.

[Edited 2012-08-04 10:08:57]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 61, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 60):
Sure I have. And you can also do a google search for more links if you need more info.

See i was right..

Quoting mt99 (Reply 59):
i have been around a.net long enough to know that when people throw out this kind of response its a last ditch effort to conceal (and thereby accept) their own lack of evidence when debating a point.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 60):
What I haven't gotten from you is a single reply that indicates you even looked into the issue. No specific questions about the investigation, no points trying to refute the FERC's findings, absolutely nothing.

The one-page report you provided does not even contain the word "regulation" - Are you aware of that? It does, however include the following

"- Staff found that many trading strategies employed by Enron and other companies violated the anti-gaming provisions of their FERC-approved tariffs for the California ISO and PX markets. Staff recommends the Commission initiate proceedings to require companies to disgorge profits associated with these tariff violations.
- EnronOnline gave Enron knowledge of market conditions unavailable to its competitors. This informational trading advantage from EOL was highly lucrative for Enron, which could absorb losses in physical markets because of its profits in financial markets. Enron manipulated thinly traded physical markets to profit in financial markets. Staff estimates Enron’s profits from EOL exceeded $500 million in 2000 and 2001. EOL was a primary driver of wash trading, which created a false sense of liquidity, which can cause artificial volatility and distorted prices.
- Electricity prices in California’s spot markets were affected by economic withholding and inflated price bidding, in violation of tariff anti-gaming provisions. Staff recommends proceedings to require disgorgement of profits associated with these tariff violations."

http://www.ferc.gov/industries/elect...act/wec/enron/summary-findings.pdf

In summary: Tariff Violation, and price manipulation.

I have asked at least 5 times to point to me the specific "regulations" you think cause (forced even!) these traders to act the way they did, IE forced to violate their tariff and force to manipulate prices?

Want me to ask a sixth time?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 62, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 61):
See i was right..

See, you think that providing that one page with a summary means you do not have enough information to perform your own research. That's wrong. What you want is to be spoon fed.

Even your own wikipedia link - a decent place to start research - has plenty of information about what I have been talking about.

For the Nth time, I will not spoon feed you.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 63, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2723 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
See, you think that providing that one page with a summary means you do not have enough information to perform your own research.

Ive done the research. This California Power Crisis had a prominent part on my Masters Thesis on Power Markets in the US. So no need to wait for me, i know the facts. I am waiting for your "facts" so we can have a discussion.

Should I ask a seventh time for some facts?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
For the Nth time, I will not spoon feed you.

But you have nothing to feed! your plate is empty buddy.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 64, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 63):
Ive done the research. This California Power Crisis had a prominent part on my Masters Thesis on Power Markets in the US. So no need to wait for me, i know the facts. I am waiting for your "facts" so we can have a discussion.

Sorry buddy, but your comments in this thread make it clear you know nothing about economics, incentives, trading, and how all this relates to the California energy crisis. And the part you quoted from the wilkipedia article is so devoid of substance that it makes it abundantly clear that you are just an amateur.

[Edited 2012-08-08 08:15:18]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 65, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2704 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 64):
Sorry buddy, but your comments in this thread make it clear you know nothing about economics, incentives, trading, and how all this relates to the California energy crisis. And the part you quoted from the wilkipedia article is so devoid of substance that it makes it abundantly clear that you are just an amateur.

HAHHA.. ..! Come on man.And your 1 pager from FERC does? (which in fact proves my point not yours) show you in depth knowledge of the subject.

I am challenging you to a discussion between facts and facts but you say "what i mean to say is in the internet - go look for it?" (its a bit cowardly if you ask me) and shows that utterly lacking in your conviction to your point.

"Regulations" pfft - Give me a break!

Mention ONE: - (Eighth time for those who are counting)

[Edited 2012-08-08 08:23:49]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 66, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 65):
And your 1 pager from FERC does?

See reply 62.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 65):
Mention ONE

See your wikipedia link.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 67, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 65):
which in fact proves my point not yours

Are you referring to reply 39 here? Because that's a great example of how confused this stuff makes you and, if you were at least familiar with the anti-regulatory arguement, you would not have written any of it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 68, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2681 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 67):

Are you referring to reply 39 here

Sorry, like you , I am not going to spoon feed you. My point is perfectly clear "somewhere in the thread" Look for it yourself.  
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 67):

Are you referring to reply 39 here? Because that's a great example of how confused this stuff makes you and, if you were at least familiar with the anti-regulatory arguement, you would not have written any of it.

But OK, fine explain why you think i am mistaken in my reply 39? That is how a debate is had. I make a statement, your either agree to it or not. If you don't people generally give their reasons behind their disagreement. (no. saying "look for it on the internet" does not count.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 66):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 65):
Mention ONE

See your wikipedia link.

Lets take one regulation at a time. Which one do you want to discuss? Pick one from the "myriad" listed in the article.

(Actually the Wikipedia link is a pretty scathing account on how De-regulation caused this mess - opposite your point, i assume)

Look, if you do not want to have this debate - for whatever reason (laziness, lack of substance or whatever) or - you don't have to. I'm beginning to think that you are OK with everyone knowing that when push comes to shove, you cannot back up your arguments with out the help of the good of "look it up on the internet" claim.



[Edited 2012-08-08 09:30:00]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 69, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 68):

Are you referring to reply 39 here

Sorry, like you , I am not going to spoon feed you. My point is perfectly clear "somewhere in the thread" Look for it yourself.

Just needed confirmation of what I was thinking. Didn't ask you to do anything else.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 68):
But OK, fine explain why you think i am mistaken in my reply 39?

I already did in reply 43.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 68):
Lets take one regulation at a time. Which one do you want to discuss? Pick one from the "myriad" listed in the article.

Can't, because there are a couple that work together to create a "perfect storm". The FERC's final report has an entire discussion on this topic already, so no need to do this all over again. If you have any disagreements with the report you are welcome to post them here and we'll discuss them.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 68):
(Actually the Wikipedia link is a pretty scathing account on how De-regulation caused this mess - opposite your point, i assume)

You say this despite the fact that it makes it abundantly clear that there were lots of regulations in place and that this was part of the problem? Heck, arguably California's energy markets were FAR more regulated than what you see in other states.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 70, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2658 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 69):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 68):
But OK, fine explain why you think i am mistaken in my reply 39?

I already did in reply 43.

That's as good as asying " Oxygen in the air" cause the crisis. Specifics would be nice.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 69):
The FERC's final report has an entire discussion on this topic already, so no need to do this all over again. If you have any disagreements with the report you are welcome to post them here and we'll discuss them.

No, YOU feel free to post the link and specific paragraphs that YOU think bolster YOUR argument. You have already admitted that the burden on prrof is on you.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 58):

Burden of proof is indeed on me
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 69):
Heck, arguably California's energy markets were FAR more regulated than what you see in other states.

Before deregulation? or after..you are not clear.

Are you ready to prove that CA energy market was FAR more regulated that other states? or are you going to point to me the the "internet" once more?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 71, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 70):
No, YOU feel free to post the link and specific paragraphs that YOU think bolster YOUR argument. You have already admitted that the burden on prrof is on you.

I didn't ask you to prove anything. . . I asked you what's your issue with it.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 70):
Are you ready to prove that CA energy market was FAR more regulated that other states? or are you going to point to me the the "internet" once more?

I said arguably, so no strict proof. I mean, what sort of deregulation actually creates an additional TWO government-mandated organization like PX and Cal-ISO? Just saying. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 71):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 70):
No, YOU feel free to post the link and specific paragraphs that YOU think bolster YOUR argument. You have already admitted that the burden on prrof is on you.

I didn't ask you to prove anything. . . I asked you what's your issue with it.

I have no issue it. I agree with its finding which are summarized in the handy dandy one-pager you provided. (see reply 61)

Quoting mt99 (Reply 61):
In summary: Tariff Violation, and price manipulation.

You were asked to prove otherwise and to show me were you draw your conclusions that "regulations" caused the crisis. Still waiting,

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 71):
said arguably, so no strict proof. I mean, what sort of deregulation actually creates an additional TWO government-mandated organization like PX and Cal-ISO? Just saying. . .

The 1992 passage of the Federal Energy Policy Act It is the same regulation that allowed energy wholesalers to exist (i.e. the likes of ENRON).

I dont know if you are aware of how power generation and dispatch occur, but the basic physics of power generation, transmission and distribution NEED an oversight and rules. The ISOs are the result of Physics, really.

An added benefit is that the keep everyone (private generators, consumers, utilities) "honest." - Which ENRON was not. They violated the rules. As Ken Lay said:

""In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money." "

What you are suggesting is akin to me saying: I ran a red light only because the red light existed. It is the fault of the red light that i got a ticket. If it had not been there, i would not have committed a violation.

The rules were set - they choose to violate them.

Also, ISOs were stablished throughout the country - and not just California as you seem to suggest. PJM had been operating and they didn't not run into the same problems. ISOs currently operate (PJM, NYISO, IESO, MISO, SPP) and they don't run into the same problems as CA did.

[Edited 2012-08-10 17:25:47]


Step into my office, baby
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Welcome Iran As The New Nuclear Power posted Fri Dec 13 2002 00:58:58 by Artsyman
How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime? posted Wed Jul 25 2012 22:41:59 by Pyrex
US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes posted Mon Jul 16 2012 18:18:26 by TheCommodore
Nuclear Power Discussion posted Sat Sep 4 2010 10:25:36 by connies4ever
Iran: Its Nuclear Power Plant posted Sat Aug 21 2010 13:28:23 by simonriat
Car-Know-It-Alls: Sunroof, Power Windows & Locks posted Fri Jun 25 2010 06:34:55 by LASoctoberB6
Anybody Know Anything About Old Power Lines? posted Thu Mar 25 2010 09:45:31 by N766UA
Power Of Attorney To Purchase A Car? posted Tue Mar 9 2010 19:42:26 by mNeo
Man Dies After Urinating On Power Line posted Wed Mar 3 2010 13:09:06 by KaiGywer
Confusion Over Power Plant Blast In CT posted Sun Feb 7 2010 10:51:02 by Andz