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Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5140 times:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...hooting-sikh-temple_n_1744256.html

Quote:
OAK CREEK, Wis., Aug 5 (Reuters) - A gunman killed six people and critically wounded three at a Sikh temple during Sunday services before police shot him dead in an attack that authorities are treating as an act of domestic terrorism.

Witnesses said the gunman opened fire when he entered the kitchen at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee at about 10:30 a.m. CDT (1530 GMT) as women prepared a Sunday meal, sending worshippers fleeing to escape the barrage.

The suspect was a bald, white man, approximately 40 years old, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Authorities did not release his identity.

Also:

Quote:
Turban-wearing Sikhs are often mistaken for Muslims, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation is overseeing the probe into shootings, Edwards said.

"We're treating this as a domestic terrorist incident," he told reporters. Officials had no details about a possible motive.

So already the motive is starting to appear that this is an anti-Muslim (or anti-Subcontinental?) attack.

In other news, Westboro Baptist Church has released an official statement in the form of a Tweet:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...o-wisc_n_1745173.html#slide=402351

Quote:
God sent another shooter? MT @BreakingNews: Scanner reports indicate people shot at Sikh Temple,Oak Creek,Wisconsin @DanODwtmj @620wtmj

So? Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons? Time to start racially profiling middle-aged White men? Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this? Thoughts?

228 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4527 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5128 times:

Something has to be done about the gun insanity in this country.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons?

First, you're being disingenuous and jumping the gun since

Quote:
Edwards said he had no identification for the shooter nor information on what kind of weapon or weapons he had. The victims' identities and descriptions were not made public.

If you're going to make a point, make it. But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Second, the answer is no. No matter whether you think it's good for people to have such weapons or not, there's no practical way to get them off the streets. Americans didn't get less drunk during Prohibition and it's not likely they'll get less violent if you take away their guns. The people who are going to comply with additional laws and turn over their weapons aren't the people who are posing a threat.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?

You want to repeal the First Amendment?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

My sympathy and condolences to all of those who died and their loved ones in yesterday's shooting.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Thoughts?


It sickens me when some people gloat and celebrate when there is a heinous crime simply because the assailants isn't Muslim. Happened with the Colorado shooter and the Gabby Giffords shooter. It also sickens me when politicians take advantage of these unfortunate crimes and use it to push their agendas.
Luckily this man WILL be prosecuted in a court and punished by other middle-aged White men, some of whom also own guns.
Wisconsin doesn't have an official death penalty but he may get the Jefferey Dahmer treatment......



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The suspect was a bald, white man, approximately 40 years old, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Authorities did not release his identity.

Unusual name for a spokesman.

This is a tragic event where many innocents were killed at a place of worship. Sikhs have their origins as a martial people who took up arms against Mughal (Muslim) rulers back in the time.

On to the subject of guns. Unfortunately, there is no national dialogue on guns and we have become a completely polarized country. Half of America is not on speaking terms with the other half; and an unspoken civil war is already under place. If an insurrection actually takes place, let us not forget which side is better armed...

The US is also under a severe economic upheaval, and every other issue takes a backseat. The otherness of Sikhs will mean this shooting will not remain in the national consciousness beyond today.


User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5087 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Luckily this man WILL be prosecuted in a court

The suspect was shot and killed at the scene by police.


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5079 times:

It surprises me that people advocate owning assualt rifles as a matter of right. While I can understand some of the arguments for owning hand guns (which I still don't think is needed), the argument for assualt rifles is simply ridiculous. It doesn't matter if background/mental checks are done before granting license. Who knows when someone will fly off the handle and start shooting up people?

Innocent people got killed today, for no fault of theirs other than being part of a religion which had not harmed US in any way, and only because the shooter was too stupid to distinguish between religions. Should we blame the US education system for this? or its lack of social supporty system to ensure disturbed people have a shoulder to lean on?


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5055 times:

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 5):
The suspect was shot and killed at the scene by police.

Even better!



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

This isn't the first attack on Sikhs in the US.

This looks like: an uneducated idiot, saw turbans and thought: "this must be muslims – I have to kill them!"

An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

[Edited 2012-08-06 00:52:12]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4976 times:
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Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Unusual name for a spokesman.
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Unusual sounding job title too?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
You want to repeal the First Amendment?

I don't think anyone is looking at that just yet but what Doc actually said was.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?

To ask the question is always a good thing and one should not assume that if something is written in the constitution that it is right. Times change, feelings change, situations change.

Many countries already have laws against incitement and it seems to work fairly well.

Fred


User currently onlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

This is a shameful tragedy. Condolences to victims and their families.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
You want to repeal the First Amendment?

I actually don't think that's necessary. I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far. Fraud, yelling fire in a crowded theater, disturbing the peace, and soliciting for the overthrow of our gov't are already not covered under the 1st.

Hate speech and groups are more dangerous than at least a few of those things. We shouldn't have to mess with the Constitution to get this taken care of. But if an amendment is needed to tweak the 1st on this issue, than that's fine too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No matter whether you think it's good for people to have such weapons or not, there's no practical way to get them off the streets.

Bullshit. This is very easy to defeat. But even if it weren't, that is no excuse whatsoever to continue distribution going forward.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):

This looks like: an uneducated idiot, saw turbans and thought: "this must be muslims – I have to kill them!"

I'd be surprised if it were more complex than that, yes.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):

An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

Can't say that they specifically are at fault just yet. But let's just say it wouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone if this guy does have tea party written all over him. He already can't tell the difference between a Sikh and an Arab after all... (And that's not to say that killing folks because they're Arab would have made this any better...)



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2670 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

A violent, very probably racist, a-hole opened fire and viciously murdered people in a Sikh temple.

How in the hell does anyone draw a straight line from the Tea Party to this?



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14027 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4943 times:

Lone gunman armed with a 9mm pistol.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...sin-shooting-idUSBRE8740FP20120806

The FBI are treating it as a rightwing terrorist attack.

On the other hand:
"Chinese Teenager kills eight with a knife after argument with his girlfriend"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

Guns are extremely difficult to get in China, but there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing Chinese going beserk with knives.

Jan


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far.

Threats and fighting words along with the incitement of imminent lawless action are already excepted. Plus there are conspiracy laws as well. I don't see what further restrictions you could add without just scrapping the whole thing.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far.

Except that it shouldn't be outlawed. Part of freedom is the freedom to be an idiot. And as long as you are not stepping on anyone else's rights, there should be as few restrictions as possible on what people can and cannot support. People should be allowed to hate or not hate whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish provided that they do not incite imminent lawlessness, threaten others, commit crimes, or engage in a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
This is very easy to defeat. But even if it weren't, that is no excuse whatsoever to continue distribution going forward.

If you think that further restrictions on guns is going to end gun violence you are extraordinarily naive. There's plenty of guns floating around as it is, and there are plenty of shady characters willing and able to sell more.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 12):
How in the hell does anyone draw a straight line from the Tea Party to this?

I wouldn't bet against his being in the Tea Party or sympathizing with it. That said, the Tea Party may be a group with racists in it, but it is not a racist group. We had plenty of those before. The KKK popped up just after the Civil War and American Nazis appeared not long after German ones, starting with the Bund and on through the American Nazi Party. Nobody needed the Tea Party to be a racist.

The Tea Party movement has run way off the rails to become an ultra right group that doesn't stand for much of anything other than defeating Kenyan presidents. It's a bunch of idiots who, along with the Occupy movement, are basically the Yippies of the 21st century. As such they'll attract pretty much anyone with a beef against the administration, whether it's social issues, fiscal issues, or they just don't like black people. It's not a viable movement, just like the Occupiers. Reasonable people will find other things to do while Tea Party clowns are off shooting their guns or trying to levitate things.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons?

Reports are that a 9 mm pistol was found at the scene. It doesn't appear than an assault weapon was used in the attack.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

When ignorance is combined with hatred the most shocking things can happen. Truly a tragedy. My condolences to those who have lost a loved one, both among the Sikh community and to the family of the policeman who died in the performance of his duty, and a speedy recovery to those injured during this latest outrage.

Sadly there are plenty of people who are prepared to fan the flames of hatred and there are those who will act out that same hatred. No country is totally immune and we are lucky that so far the US has not seen the sort of sectarian violence prevalent in a number of others.

I am not convinced that restricting the right to bear arms, let alone amending the Constitution, will make much of a difference. It is not simple possession of arms that lead people to kill. If that were so a number of other countries would have equally high firearm homicide rates as the US (and yes, some countries actually do.)

Let us compare two countries: the US and Switzerland. I choose those two because they are relatively stable countries with democratic systems of government, are governed by the rule of law, have advanced economies and an educated population.

As in the US the right to own a firearm is guaranteed by law in Switzerland, although there are restrictions on fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Weapons may be carried openly but a valid reason must be given to carry a concealed weapon. In terms of privately owned firearms out of 179 reporting countries Switzerland was ranked at number 3 with the US ranking at number 1.

Yet the incidence of firearm homicides is very different. In 2010 the rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 in Switzerland was 0.52. In stark contrast the 2009 rate for the US was 2.98 (see www.gunpolicy.org )

So why is it that one country seems to have a propensity for gun violence while the other doesn't? Until that question is adrressed any attempt at restricting gun ownership may simply be treating symptoms and not the underlying causes.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Its on the headlines today out here.......there is quite an outburst over this attack for obvious reasons.....still dont get the gun law out there.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4858 times:
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Absolutely shocking! A shame that the gunman was killed, would have been nice to know/understand his motives to help prevent this in the future.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The Tea Party movement has run way off the rails to become an ultra right group that doesn't stand for much of anything other than defeating Kenyan presidents.

What on earth have they got against Mwai Kibaki?

Fred


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Attacking a Religious prayer location by a gunman is obviously targetting that particular community........Or presumes to target one particular community & got mixed up....


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4815 times:

Loaded (but justified) questions in the OP aside, it is really time the country started to ask itself about the causes and effects of the nationwide gun fetish. People say it's cold, irreversible reality that we have enough weapons and ammunition lying around in civilian hands to down the world's entire elephant population six times over (note: 56% of all statistics are made up on the spot) but it's not. This is a reality that our country has over time created.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?



Can you please cite some sources that links this murderer to the Tea Party?
That is a grave accusation to make, especially without any source to back it up.
Ironically, the only 2 Indian American governors in the US happen to belong to the Tea Party.
South Carolina governor Nikki Haley has commented about yesterday's tragedy.

http://standrews.patch.com/articles/...ov-haley-responds-to-wisc-shooting



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

It is hate speech like this that ensures that americans can't seem to work together these days. The idea that the Tea party is racist is pure propaganda, straight from the Joseph Goebbels School. Find enough fools to repeat the lie often enough, and it becomes accepted by enough people to make a difference at the polls.

And for your information, the Tea Party had its origins in the fall of 2008, before Obama was elected, when millions of people shuddered in horror at the idea of bailing out all those banks for their poor business decisions. We wanted to let the banks fail if they had to, and then bail out the FDIC who would have to cover lost deposits. Better the money go to blameless depositors than stupid bank management. The TP then really got going when he started his massive stimulus spending (which still isn't over, BTW). Absolutely nothing to do with his race.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4787 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Can you please cite some sources that links this murderer to the Tea Party?
That is a grave accusation to make, especially without any source to back it up.

Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

Fred


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 21):
Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

And it also protects our right to call the maker of such statements an unmitigated jerk and rake him over the coals for it (figuratively speaking, of course).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 21):
Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

All I'm asking for is a source of information.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4758 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
It sickens me when some people gloat and celebrate when there is a heinous crime simply because the assailants isn't Muslim

So in your opinion all heinous crimes are committed by Muslims?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
25 windy95 : He did not use one but nice try... How do you silence hate speech? Correct Why? it is a natural thing for American's to own weapons of all types. Ple
26 Revelation : Fruedian slip? It's something we're just stuck with. Our Constitution's framers intentionally put "the right to bear arms" right into the document, a
27 Post contains links and images NWAESC : What's so weird about "Ahern?" I believe the officer is expected to survive... It is?! Since when? A pistol or rifle is one thing; a high powered ass
28 fr8mech : So, this was an act of domestic terror, but the Fort Hood shooting wasn't? I won't even address the gun control issues. My position on my right to def
29 Revelation : Ahh, the old "too black for some, not black enough for others" troll...
30 MD11Engineer : I didn´t check on the statistics, but I´m quite sure that most of these massacres were committed at close range, either in buildings, with no chanc
31 SOBHI51 : There was also the gunman in the clock tower of Austin university in Texas.
32 blrsea : With a knife, the ability to shoot multiple people in a matter of seconds isn't there, as it depends on the knife wielder's reflexes. And people can o
33 wingman : These Sikhs really should do themselves a favor and guy giant "We are NOT Muslim" banners for their temples. In a country so overloaded on hate, guns,
34 flipdewaf : Oh come on! Don't you know that if you tell a member of the KKK that you are Bi-racial and not black they will stop chasing you with you hunting rifl
35 Post contains images Confuscius : Some people are just plain dumb and stupid. With the internet it's so easy to research things unless the shooter went to a right wing website...or wi
36 Smittyone : I see a guy occasionally on the expressway sporting a license plate frame that says "Sikhs Love America. Google "Sikhism". Now I know why! The WBC ar
37 fr8mech : Must resist urge to explode into laughter.......and tears.
38 PHX787 : It's pretty clear. The guy's a vet. Here's the problem: It's all about the person's upbringing. We cannot be so strict on hate speech because that cr
39 Post contains images BMI727 : Good one. That said, Kibaki and Obama have both done about the same amount of work to separate Americans from their guns. Those origins are pretty mu
40 LTBEWR : The gunman's name has come out. He used a handgun legally obtained about 10 days ago. He served a number of years in the US Army (1992 -98). He appare
41 blrsea : So you are comfortable with people walking around with deadly assault rifles and higher caliber guns? Even if it threatens your family or loved ones?
42 GEEZER : NWAESC.........this statement indicates to anyone having any knowledge of firearms, that you have very little; a "pistol" or "rifle" is "one thing"..
43 Smittyone : The more I read about this guy, the more I think the whole "must have mistaken the Sikhs to be Muslims" angle of this story is bogus. Page was just a
44 Post contains links windy95 : Yes as Revelation stated below Actually just stating a fact. Being that he is the first bi-racial President. You have to be kidding? Have you seen wh
45 windy95 : Exactly And we all know that skinheads are a core conservative group that partake in the Tea Party. Yes They will then have a group of weapon's point
46 BMI727 : Not really, but that doesn't mean that I can tell people that they shouldn't own them if they want them. The people who will threaten me or my family
47 cmf : Only the naive bring up the END of gun violence. The reality is that it is very difficult to END anything. But it is very often easy to REDUCE occurr
48 Dreadnought : I disagree. The intent of the Swiss keeping guns at home is because of the small size of the country and the need to be able to instantly mobilize in
49 acidradio : I am jumping into the thread here as somewhat of a traffic cop. I'm starting to get a lot of Suggest Deletion requests in this thread. There is much a
50 Post contains links and images KiwiRob : I'm pretty surprised that a person can legally buy a Barret M107 .50 cal in the US, I would have thought a weapon like this would be highly illegal i
51 mdsh00 : I think there should be a different thread for this gun control bs. It's an important topic but should be done somewhere else. This thread should inst
52 MD11Engineer : I´ve got mixed feelings about this issue. On one hand I don´t want guns (or anything else which can be used to injure people) in the hands of nutca
53 DocLightning : I didn't say that. It is an option that it could be modified. Germany states that the first priority is that human dignity must be protected. This is
54 fr8mech : How in God's name do you make that leap? Because he is a vet, he hates Muslims? Yes. Yes, I am. The more folks carrying around firearms, the lower th
55 fr8mech : In your opinion. They don't ignore it...they know that a preamble does not limit a clause.
56 DocLightning : Well, yes. But I meant in Germany's opinion in that particular case.
57 Smittyone : I'd say the intent was to maintain a healthy fear of the several States on the part of the Federal Government. Militia is by the definition of that t
58 GDB : Interesting points. But does the US Constitution not state the right to bear arms within, or at least implied, the context of a 'well regulated milit
59 BMI727 : How? It already restricts threats and inciting imminent lawlessness, which is fair since that infringes the rights of others. But it should not be th
60 Smittyone : I think the issue is that in the time period that the Constitution was written, militia members generally provided their own weapons...so the ability
61 MD11Engineer : Nope. The idea behind Swiss militiamen having their personal weapon at home is that a) they will keep current on marksmanship (there are shooting ran
62 Smittyone : Sure, but the preamble sheds a lot of light on the intent of the people who actually wrote the Second Amendment. The context they had in mind for wea
63 Superfly : Not saying that at all. It was "hate" and "mass stupidity" that got Obama elected with a MAJORITY of the vote. True and they hate everyone that is no
64 Bongodog1964 : Have just returned from a trip to the US, during my time there, not only were there two massacres, but the local news reported the usual daily toll of
65 BMI727 : That is bizarre. Walmart should totally be allowed to sell liquor.
66 Post contains images Maverick623 : A good assessment, but this guy never deployed into a warzone. What is interesting is that he was demoted from being a mechanic at the rank of Sergea
67 DocLightning : Because some of us who have been the target of discrimination get tired of hearing Muslims trashed because we know that if we give into that, we'll b
68 Post contains images cmf : They are both addressing dire times. Neither is intended for people to be constant armies of one wherever they walk. I think gun attitude is a very i
69 Post contains links Revelation : Ok. The current context really undermines your arguments. The SCOTUS decided in the 2008 Heller case: Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_C
70 Maverick623 : As I said above, that goes both ways. People today think "militia" means "professional army", when it doesn't (and didn't), which is why many support
71 DocLightning : It did NOT say, however, that you may own any type of weapon that you like. And that was what I was getting at. The only reason that assault weapons
72 Revelation : That's correct but irrelevant. My point is that it will indeed take a massive change in public opinion in the US. It seems that what is needed is som
73 Max Q : Welcome to America. Where the right to have as many guns as you want is literally treasured more than human life.
74 Post contains links fr8mech : And, 75, somewhat, years ago a substantial number of German citizens and a whole gaggle of their political leadership felt that world domination and
75 LTBEWR : The big factor, in this mass murder is not so much his guns, but more his open racist beliefs. Unlike many other countries, expressing hate for a fait
76 DeltaMD90 : Not in GA at least... I think that is a sensible measure that should be implemented
77 DocLightning : I don't think so. It's going to take a massive amount of public OUTRAGE. Opinion is probably against the NRA. Just not strongly enough. Which is exac
78 fr8mech : And, what was one of the first things the Nazi government did when they consolidated power? They took the guns away from the Jews. When you outlaw sp
79 Flighty : I hope the military simply takes these groups out. Thought that was our solution to terrorism? I'd have no problem with this guy's whole cell being t
80 GEEZER : I assume you are referring to Gov. Bobby Jindal / La. and Gov. Nikki Haley / S. C.; Confuscius............You are a very bright, very smart young man
81 BMI727 : Nor would I, seeing as they've now committed an act of terrorism. His skinhead buddies definitely have some explaining to do if they don't want to be
82 DarkSnowyNight : It's really not that hard. Incentive people to turn them in. Despite what the gun lovers here think, there's virtually no american out there who will
83 Bongodog1964 : Are you sure ? the last two masasacres were carried out by licenced gunholders, both of whom appear to be total nut cases, the latter one having a lo
84 MD11Engineer : That and also concerns about privacy, which prevent the establishment of a database of people with mental concerns. E.g. certain psychological or psy
85 Post contains images scbriml : Seriously? Hmm, that flawed argument hasn't stopped a mass murder yet, has it?
86 MD11Engineer : Refering to post #84: You could make such a licence a MUST ISSUE item. This means that unless there are valid reasons speaking against gun ownership,
87 Post contains images cmf : Success isn't measured by the number of occurrences that have what you classify as good news because every occurrence is bad news, no matter the outc
88 MD11Engineer : Contrary: I would suggest a "gun ownership qualification licence", which would have to be presented on request by anybody purchasing or owning a gun.
89 Revelation : Common sense? Peh. I wish it were that simple. If common sense ruled, we would have legalized marijuana and prostitution a long time ago. There's a l
90 NWAESC : No, I get it, but thanks for being condescending. My (rhetorical) point was that there's this idea in the US that a home packed with weaponry is as "
91 windy95 : I protect my own dignity Nothing controversial about it. It is well documented on why they wanted it and what the Militia was as others have stated i
92 Revelation : If you compare and contrast: To: ... then I think one can see how wide the gap is. Add in thoughts like: And: and the gap grows even bigger. One side
93 comorin : Hallelujah. This is why Obama is not wasting any time on either issue. It's all happened before, and it will happen again. Hopefully liberals will ex
94 NWAESC : If you were referring to me as the one "who has probably never shot a firearm," you'd be wrong. I have many many times, and enjoy target (and skeet)
95 Bongodog1964 : Yes wine and beer, but not whiskey, gin, tequila or any other spirit, why are these considered a bigger danger than a bullet ?
96 slider : He can't and won't. It's a gutless cowardly statement. But ust as with the Aurora CO shootings, the media made an outlandish accusation of same. Agai
97 Post contains links helvknight : Maybe this is just a coincidence but the mosque in Joplin, Missouri was torched at the weekend as well. http://news.yahoo.com/joplin-mosque-...re-2nd-
98 Post contains links fr8mech : To quote federal law on he matter: [i](d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person
99 Post contains links cmf : It was always intended for dire times. Not for normal days. I think you're wrong. Every problem is solvable. But it requires a will to solve it. Givi
100 Revelation : No, I didn't mean to single any one individual out. FWIW, I was trained on BB guns and 22s at Boy Scout camp, eons ago, and joined a gang of quite dr
101 Smittyone : I don't think so. Rather, I think that in 2008 the Supreme Court (deliberately) retroactively attributed a different intent to the minds of authors o
102 fr8mech : I'll suggest that anytime your life is put in danger by a 'bad' person, you are in dire times. Interesting and compelling argument. I'll think on it
103 D L X : Their agendas are ending these unfortunate crimes! The pro-gun people need to understand this: people who are anti-gun aren't simply against guns bec
104 Superfly : They are? Last time I checked, murder was illegal. If a crazy person or criminal has no respect for life and willing to break the law and kill people
105 GDB : Windy95 said; 'They will then have a group of weapon's pointing back at them.' Yeah, that really happens a lot.......in movies maybe. You do know that
106 DocLightning : Utter un-availability. It won't happen overnight, but the manufacture of precision, semi-automatic assault weapons requires factories with large supp
107 Superfly : Sure about that?
108 cmf : There is no question today's circumstances are very different. I was hoping you would understand the difference between dire times and a bad situatio
109 DocLightning : When was the last time that fully automatic weapons were used for a mass shooting in the USA?
110 fr8mech : And, quite suddenly, or even over time, criminals will stop using guns because they have become illegal, or even hard to come by? Fully automatic wea
111 Revelation : I'm sure you realize it, but as above, this isn't about logic, it's about some people's primal fears that get amplified by those who just plain old l
112 MD11Engineer : Of course I meant legally held by private persons as opposed to e.g. held by a sheriiff´s department. In the last case there has IIRC a murder commi
113 Superfly : Happens on a weekly bases in your native Detroit. For example; an AK-47 and many other rifles can be illegally modified to a fully automatic rifle. N
114 Post contains links MD11Engineer : If you have access to a basic machine shop you can churn out copies of the British WW2 Sten subm,achine gun without a problem. Blueprints are availabl
115 Maverick623 : Really? Is there a 28th Amendment I don't know about? :shudders: Change "weapon" to "Jew". :shudders: It is sad indeed. I was rather surprised that m
116 zckls04 : There are no "official statistics"- you can only extrapolate based on the info available, and the best guess is a 70% drop for the first year, and a
117 fr8mech : Jan, I'm aware of the differences in the weapons and their classifications Unfortunately, to many folks, including those in the media and those that
118 Aesma : Don't you think that what is done in Germany is working better to keep it as a democracy, I mean education ? And also strong laws/constitution that a
119 MD11Engineer : Armed resistance would be the absolutely last means, if everything else has failed. But I can imagine a group of populist politicians trying to use a
120 Post contains links LTBEWR : We are not going to change the gun/weapon laws in the USA for the foreseeable future. We can take actions as to the extremist groups and racist behavi
121 fr8mech : I'm not sure if it's racism that is the driver or a lack of mission or purpose that these hate groups are able to fill through charismatic leaders an
122 Post contains images YVRLTN : Lets focus on this guy Page. In a short period of time, "a lot" of info has been unearthed about him and his radical views, which did not come over hi
123 BMI727 : First, I never said anything about unlimited. Second, you simply cannot have the government deciding which opinions are alright to hold and express a
124 JJJ : The swiss severely restrict the availability of ammunition. So, fellow Americans, follow the Swiss road and start requiring a special permit to purch
125 Post contains images DarkSnowyNight : I have plenty of clues Here's one. I said "that's the carrot." Go ahead and don't turn your's in. Your $15,000 goes to your neighbor instead when she
126 fr8mech : Sure you can. So long as you don't assault them or incite others to violence, you can just about say anything you want. You might get a disturbing th
127 ogre727 : or how some criminals are finally found? dont see your point.
128 MD11Engineer : Many of these hate groups also propagate unconditional obedience to a strong man ("Führer, befiehl, wir folgen!" "Leader, give orders, we´ll obey!"
129 Post contains links Revelation : That's just crap logic. Jews were targeted out of racism, and here we're talking about an effort to target a behavior, gun ownership, not an accident
130 Flighty : You are of course aware of how the USG treats terrorism suspects and associates. They are targets for the fire control system to lock onto. GWOT is n
131 windy95 : Here are a few quotes from that time Like I said before welcome to the CCCP comrade...
132 JJJ : And therein lies the root of the US problems with guns. XVIII century solutions to XXI century problems.
133 windy95 : The problem is that the Guns are not the problem. The breakdown in our society is. Is the car the problem or the people driving them? Drugs and alcoh
134 JJJ : Traffic-related deaths, drugs and alcohol are a problem every developed society in the world shares with the US. Firearm violence in the US is unique
135 mham001 : I see they are looking at the music he made and listened and are asking what to do about it. That's an easy one. They need to do the same things they
136 DeltaMD90 : Oh brother not this again. I listen to some songs with controversial lyrics, I don't go capping police or beating women. If music really does push so
137 Post contains links and images Smittyone : Interesting - but I stand by my contention that the Constitutional Convention was worried about the more immediate concern of protecting state's righ
138 DocLightning : Yes, because all of Western Europe, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand are Communist dictatorships. It is inevitable. You can turn in a weapon. You ca
139 Revelation : IMHO that's nonsense. The countries of Europe have approximately the same number of social problems as we do, but they also have gun control, and no
140 Smittyone : I'm not discounting what you say here, but I personally believe there is something broken in the cultural DNA of the US behind the propensity toward
141 Post contains images Maverick623 : Having neighbors spy on neighbors, for a cash reward? You don't see the folly in that? The only time I ever see rewards offered is for violent fugiti
142 Post contains images cmf : You may want to consider what other people said at the time too. Robert Whitehill for example wanted it to be clear that hunting on your own grounds
143 Revelation : It's funny how people then argue that somehow they're different than the data would suggest. It's kinda like folks who argue that they can drink and
144 Maverick623 : The only political statement is yours: Notice how I was speaking about protection from non-governmental oppression: I don't give a hoot about "poor u
145 DeltaMD90 : Isn't that kinda a given? If you have no gun it's 0% but even with the most safe individual around, the odds of an accident are at least 0.0000001%.
146 Revelation : Huh??? I didn't tell you had to do anything, I just said "you really should consider where you live", and pointed out statistically and logically the
147 Max Q : It's good and refreshing to see some more realistic attitudes towards guns and the misery they cause in this country. Particularly from Americans. But
148 BMI727 : It's sad that people even have to conjure up arguments about self defense of being able to resist an oppressor. The only reason anyone should ever hav
149 LTBEWR : Two interesting stories came out today connected to the killer. From the preliminary of the autopsy and review of witnesses, that after taking a few (
150 DeltaMD90 : It goes both ways though. I've been told crazy things on this board, like shooting a 1000 rounds at a range in a day is absurd (which it really isn't
151 zckls04 : On the whole gun rights thing, I don't know whether this is just my perception (too lazy to research today), but it does seem that a lot of these nutc
152 BMI727 : You can already get stuff way worse than assault rifles alarmingly easily just by sending money. It's a shame people didn't keep better records durin
153 zckls04 : Actually crimes and health problems are the most frequently used metrics to determine the effect of prohibition on drinking levels, since alcohol con
154 MD11Engineer : See post #88. If I were living in my fiancée´s place in the Philippines, I also would want to have a gun for every adult in the household, but each
155 Maverick623 : I know it didn't come across too well: I don't think there's going to be a need for me (or anyone I know) to "resist oppression" from the government.
156 DarkSnowyNight : Nope. If my neighbor had a meth lab or was making her living trafficking humans, I wouldn't think twice about calling it in. We're talking about this
157 BMI727 : In a country that values freedom, it does not matter one bit whether or not I have a need for something. All that matters is that I want it. Does any
158 JJJ : You can have a huge SUV, but still need a driving license, insurance, inspections, etc. Same with guns. I am the proud owner of two fantastic shotgun
159 Smittyone : Obviously I'd feel a lot different if I was personally affected, but when I try to be objective about this - in a country with over 300 million peopl
160 Revelation : I don't know what else to do to make myself clear. Let me try the dictionary: Do you understand the difference between me telling you to consider an
161 CaliAtenza : ok, this thread veered totally into gun control. How bout we discuss how henious this crime was and how ugliness, racism, and hate is starting to take
162 Smittyone : I wouldn't say 'once again', or even that it is 'taking hold'. It has been and always will be there...at the national level we're just focusing on it
163 mham001 : Gun control advocates lose me when they start whining "he was able to buy 1000 rounds!!!". So what. He only used a small fraction of them. Totally ir
164 Smittyone : Same here. Or someday when somebody goes all "Blackbeard" and takes a bunch of people out with muzzle loading pistols and cutlass. The behavior is wh
165 cmf : Glad you understand 1,000 rounds is an absurd amount to bring to public spaces.
166 Revelation : And if the jackass had used a low yield nuclear device, would it still be all about the jackass?
167 Post contains images CaliAtenza : sadly this is true .
168 fr8mech : I actually have, well over a thousand rounds, in my car, right now. I'm selling my house and I don't want boxes of ammo laying around where anyone ca
169 Post contains images Smittyone : Haha, very well played! I see what you did there and from a logic standpoint you have me beaten, hands down. But in my mind, I draw the line where it
170 DeltaMD90 : You do know that I am not against some forms of weeding out people, right? I'm not in that 5% that I mentioned. I keep equating shooting to drinking.
171 YVRLTN : And here is the rub. To repeat myself, it was ascertained very quickly page was not mentally competent to own a weapon. Same with the clown in Aurora
172 DocLightning : And about $20,000. And there are fewer than 200,000 in the US. Oddly, they don't seem to fall into the hands of psychopaths. Really? Cite it. I have
173 BMI727 : What do you want to do with her? Put her in jail for being stupid? If you have any evidence, I'm sure the FBI has a phone number.
174 DocLightning : In a number of Western European countries she would be in jail for hate speech. Hate speech is unfortunately not a crime in this country. That does n
175 BMI727 : No it isn't. And if anyone escalates to actually committing or conspiring to commit a crime, then there is the criminal justice system to deal with t
176 DocLightning : No, that's not true at all. I can't help being gay. Bachmann, Page, Santorum and friends can all help being bigots. Bigotry is a choice. Bigotry is h
177 BMI727 : Oh yes it is. And answer me this: when skinheads have a rally or a conservative minister decries the "gay agenda", exactly which rights of yours are
178 DocLightning : It's the equivalent of firing a bullet at me and missing. Intent matters for something.
179 BMI727 : So then the answer is that no, none of your rights actually have been infringed upon. Actually the equivalent of firing a bullet at you and missing w
180 DocLightning : I would argue that hate speech incites lawlessness. How imminent it is winds up being the sticker. If you can't tell the difference between advocatin
181 BMI727 : ...which is exactly why you are wrong. Any hate speech that actually threatens anyone already falls into an excluded category. The rest is legal, and
182 Max Q : The power of the gun lobby is becoming so great in this country that pretty soon every gun lover will be allowed to 'open carry' The NRA is already tr
183 JJJ : The fact that anyone can hoard hundreds or thousands of rounds without raising a single eyebrow is relevant. Not to mention body armour.
184 fr8mech : There are states and jurisdications where this is already legal. Heard of any random gunfights? The anti-gun lobby (gun-haters?) hemmed and hawed and
185 HAWK21M : Can guns be banned & sold to those who justify its need......
186 fr8mech : Short answer: No, not here in the United States. At least not at the federal level. States have a lot more control, but are still restrained by The S
187 Smittyone : While almost four are killed on the roads and FIFTY die of smoking related illness. Every hour. Where would our time and energy be better spent? Thes
188 Superfly : Are you talking about 'fully automatic firearm' from the factory or modified?
189 Revelation : It's pretty complicated. First of all, an old American saying goes, "it's no use closing the gate when the horse has already left the barn". There ar
190 Smittyone : Honestly, this may sound terrible to you but 10,000 people a year is a rounding error in the annual butcher's bill for bad decisionmaking in the US.
191 DarkSnowyNight : Which is exactly what hate speech does. We really need to get out of the dark ages here.... As are you with the rights of terrorists. So why do domes
192 cmf : Misuse of statistics. You need to account for the benefits of roads and the requirements. You also need to consider the changes that have been requir
193 Smittyone : Agreed - but I'm not trying to do anything more than put the size of the problem suggested by the phrase "one person every hour" into some kind of re
194 Post contains images Revelation : I just heard on the radio that a Harvard Med School study said that 45,000 people die a year in the US due to lack of medical insurance. Does that me
195 Flighty : 100% of all people die of something. What people shouldn't be dying of is ridiculous Nazi and/or Joker gun rampages.
196 Smittyone : I'm not sure, since I haven't really thought it through...but my decision process would have to fold in the impact to "the rest of us" that these fol
197 BMI727 : Not imminent lawlessness. And if any skinhead rallies or concerts do cause imminent lawlessness, the answer is simple: arrest the offenders and those
198 DocLightning : Again, for the 20th or 30th time, there are free democratic countries that ban hate speech. They do this without a problem. They have done this in re
199 fr8mech : And, for the 20th or 30th time, I happen to have a problem with that. Fair question. 2 of the handguns, I use for personal carry, depending on what I
200 Smittyone : Doc, I intended your Camp C to fit into my Camp B. I'm saying that the way you deter decision making that harms a third party is by hammering people
201 BMI727 : There are, and the US is not one of them. And indeed the US should not become one of them. Of course free is not an either/or proposition. Germany mi
202 DocLightning : OK. That's fine until it comes to murder. The trouble with murder is that it's either a crime of passion, in which the perp is not thinking about con
203 BMI727 : What rights do they have that we don't? It's already established that they do not have freedom of speech or the press. Granted, for you or I it makes
204 fr8mech : I don't think anyone is 'going to get me'. I grew up in Brooklyn, NY, where firearms were and still are tightly regulated. There were home invasions,
205 Post contains images PHX787 : PTSD or something related (albeit upon further review he never was in the middle east, apparently?) You cannot arrest someone for saying something. D
206 DarkSnowyNight : No problem. These things happen. I once had to convince a boss that it was a genuine mistake (and not just me being me) when I emailed a visiting (LD
207 Revelation : So, how does that play out in your head? You're in bed, you wake up because you hear a noise, you go for your gun as quietly as possible so you aren'
208 HAWK21M : Then its High time it was......
209 Post contains images DocLightning : In an actual home invasion, you are going to be in close quarters. It's going to be dark. You may not know it's happening until it's over. You're muc
210 cmf : You shoot your daughter trying to sneak back to her bedroom after having gone to that party she was told not to go to....
211 Post contains links helvknight : Or you shoot your son thinking he's an intruder like this poor guy http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-police...son/story?id=16837822#.UCgGcKHiZGo
212 fr8mech : Chances are, the dog will have already awakened me and with any luck, run anyone off. Pretty much up to the person I confront. Who knows, I may piss
213 Flighty : It's very like the people who say, "I want to be safe in an auto accident, so that's why I don't wear a seatbelt. That way, I can escape out of the v
214 Post contains images scbriml : Bizarrely, in the UK the average house-breaker doesn't have a gun. I wonder if the fact there's next to no chance the householder has a gun has anyth
215 fr8mech : You know what? I don't care if the person coming through my door is armed or not. He is there, against my wishes, and more than likely wishes to do m
216 MD11Engineer : Best if you have both. A big, barky dog to give you the alarm and to wake you up, while he keeps the burglars busy, while on the other hand you can g
217 scbriml : No, more than likely he's just after your stuff or cash.
218 fr8mech : And, exactly how will I know that? The only fact available to me at that time is that this person entered my home, without my permission. How do I kn
219 HAWK21M : Shoot first ask questions later.......
220 fr8mech : If he's in my house, without my permission....quite possible. Can you provide me a valid reason why someone would break into my home? A reason that d
221 flipdewaf : A burgular looking for material items, drunk person walked into wrong house, mentally challenged person goes in to wrong house, teenage children retu
222 fr8mech : He is in my home without my permission. He is a threat. Whether any harm comes to him (other than the dogs getting at him) would be up to him. Locked
223 DarkSnowyNight : Yup. While somewhat complex, the litigation involved with this is much harder to dismiss than the gun-addicts here would have you believe. No, if ove
224 Post contains links fr8mech : Did I say I would shoot the person? Did you see that anywhere? No, you did not. What you have read is this: It's his choice at that point whether I r
225 starbuk7 : I just love how all the assumptions are made that us gun owners will just shoot at anything that enters our homes without no second thought about it.
226 Post contains images flipdewaf : I actually kind of agree with you and I come at this from a very different society where the person coming in my house isn't likely to have a gun any
227 DeltaMD90 : Or if you carry a concealed weapon and saw a shooter you'd immediately pull out your weapon and spray and pray, shooting in between bystanders' heads
228 HAWK21M : Anyone not approaching the door thru a normal route is a threat & will be taken care of accordingly. If not that person would have rang the doorb
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