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Proud To Be Conservative?  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3983 times:

I hear a lot of people using the word conservative with great pride these days.

Here's what the thesaurus at dictionary.com lists for synonyms for "conservative":

Tory, bourgeois, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, in a rut, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old line, orthodox, quiet, reactionary, redneck, right, right of center, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread

Doesn't sound like much to be proud of, eh?

Here's what it has for liberal:

advanced, avant-garde, broad, broad-minded, catholic, enlightened, flexible, free, general, high-minded, humanistic, humanitarian, indulgent, intelligent, interested, latitudinarian, left, lenient, libertarian, loose, magnanimous, permissive, radical, rational, reasonable, receiving, receptive, reformist, tolerant, unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced

Comments?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePACOTS From Austria, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3959 times:
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one thing: I wouldn't call "catholic" a synonym for liberal.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Comments?

Sounds like Dictionary.com got hacked.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
catholic

LOL

I'll be making excessive use of that, especially when liberals don't like religious folks. "Wait, but aren't you catholic?".

Classic.

Anyway, if we constrain our lives to a dictionary, we've reached a new low. I don't need a dictionary to tell me how to live - it is not a moral compass.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinerara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2014 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3936 times:

There is a certain Elitist bias in those definitions. Generally, the more intelligent and educated people are, the more progressive they will be. The strongest conservative views are commonly found at the other end of the spectrum. Now, dictionaries and thereby definitions are commonly written by highly educated people. They’re by no means neutral or objective. It’s no wonder they’d associate conservatism with otherwise negative attributes.

By the way, the conservative/liberal dichotomy is an American thing. In Germany, for instance, conservatives and liberals share one end of the political spectrum (the right), the other being progressive / socialist (the left).



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3285 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting PACOTS (Reply 1):
one thing: I wouldn't call "catholic" a synonym for liberal.

It's small "c" so it means universal.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting PACOTS (Reply 1):
one thing: I wouldn't call "catholic" a synonym for liberal.

But catholic as an adjective means,
1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.

2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.

3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church

But most people probably think of the corporation that has its headquarters in the Vatican City.

Quoting rara (Reply 4):
In Germany, for instance, conservatives and liberals share one end of the political spectrum (the right), the other being progressive / socialist (the left).

Oddly enough, here in Australia the conservative (i.e. pro-business / hostile to unions) party is called the Liberal Party.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

Both conservative and liberal are misused in the US in my opinion. The "liberals" want more regulation and socialized stuff, that's every true liberal nightmare. The "conservatives" want to scrap everything and conserve nothing.

By comparison liberals here are right-wing (because of their emphasis on the free market above all) and almost irrelevant, the main right-wing politicians certainly don't want to be seen as liberal. On the other hand they don't want to be called conservative either, as it indeed implies that "things were better before", and that would not make them win any election. So, while being proud to be right-wing (something relatively new) they also say they're progressive and want to advance society, they just don't think the way the left wants to do it is the right way.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
So, I must admit I'm not well versed in politics outside the U.S., but party names and relative alignment have always interested me. I'd love to find a non-biased (are we all done laughing now?) source that 'maps' political spectrums among different countries. Some things, I think, are simply cultural differences in one country but a politicized issue in another, so that 'map' would have to take into account different hot-button topics globally and compare them.

I think it would be eye-opening for most, including myself.

[Edited 2012-08-09 15:28:46 by srbmod]


The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 5):
It's small "c" so it means universal.

Indeed. Growing up in a Protestant church, we used to pray for the Holy "c"atholic Church!

I asked why, and was told exactly what you said, "c"atholic means universal.

Quoting rara (Reply 4):
There is a certain Elitist bias in those definitions.

Yeah, kinda.

Some of the things it says about "conservative" that I think fit pretty well:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
fearful
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative

Some of the things it says about "liberal" that I think fit pretty well:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
humanitarian
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
reasonable
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
receptive
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced

It's strange how many "un" words I find fit.

I guess I might be said to have an elitist bias, but IMHO I'm far from an elitist . I was raised by immigrants and am the successful product of public schools and universities.

The part that does fit well is educated.

If I had to rely on private sector education, it just wouldn't have happened. I was told that at the time, and I still believe it 100%. I probably at best would have spent the last two decades working in a factory (not that there's anything at all wrong with that!), and probably would now be unemployed like many of the people in my hometown now are. Now I'm contributing a lot to society via my work and my efforts to educate others, and am paying back what I was given earlier via taxes.

If that makes me sound like an elitist, so be it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 8):
So, I must admit I'm not well versed in politics outside the U.S., but party names and relative alignment have always interested me. I'd love to find a non-biased (are we all done laughing now?) source that 'maps' political spectrums among different countries. Some things, I think, are simply cultural differences in one country but a politicized issue in another, so that 'map' would have to take into account different hot-button topics globally and compare them.

I think it would be eye-opening for most, including myself.

I think I've seen that but don't remember where right now. You're right that some topics are more politicized in some places than others, for example abortion in the US is always mentioned during campaigns, when here even the extreme right has dropped its ban from its platform because it proved too unpopular (and it was a right-wing government that legalized it in the 70's, not a constitutional court decision).

Another problem is that each country has a different society/laws and history, and so something progressive that Obama is trying to do with health care is something that others have been provided with for more than half a century and that no politician would dare to significantly touch. Same with gun laws, a French politician advocating free sale of handguns would be looked at as a loony, when it's perfectly normal in the US across party lines.

It has been said that the democrats would be right-wing on the French political spectrum, based on the current situation of the US vs France, but to me it's not the appropriate way to look at things. What is important is the direction a party wants to steer its country towards. And clearly Obama is aiming left, while the GOP would be extreme right (if they really intended to apply what they preach, that is).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

I think one area where US and EU sees similar left/right divides is over immigration policy.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9413 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3693 times:
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Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 3):
I don't need a dictionary to tell me how to live - it is not a moral compass.

This is only very loosely related, but I feel the same way about God.

And yet people (mostly conservative it seems) ask me how I know right from wrong.

Anyway, just thinking out loud; I have nothing against either side, really. Or I should say, I am equally biased against both sides.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3285 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Sounds like Dictionary.com got hacked

   Those definitions are so biased its not even funny. Liberals are so opened minded that their brains fall out. Except when it comes to someone who disagrees with them then they arwe the most intolerant people you ever want to meet.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8623 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3607 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Both conservative and liberal are misused in the US in my opinion.

   misused and overused

None, not a single one, of these "either ... or ..." dichotomies is anything but a counterproductive oversimplification. It does no one but the simplest of minds any justice and helps only the people who make money from that simplicity.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9413 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3600 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
None, not a single one, of these "either ... or ..." dichotomies is anything but a counterproductive oversimplification. It does no one but the simplest of minds any justice and helps only the people who make money from that simplicity.

Well said.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Comments?

I don't know... someone using dictionary.com to define people is pretty sad.

If we are talking about conservative pride, keep in mind, I know many of them, and they aren't exactly impressed with the far-right, Tea Party AFTER it got hijacked, religious-right, the Republican party, etc.

Very anecdotal, but when I see people's political views on FB, they will say "conservative" way more than "Republican." It's hard to define what conservative is... I would think it would be someone against the Patriot Act, yet it was started by Republicans and so called conservatives...

There is socially conservative and then there's fiscally conservative. People can be both, one or the other, or neither. The fiscal conservatives are not just the 1%ers... my fiancee's dad at one time was eligible for food stamps for his family but refused them... he believed it was his responsibility, not the governments, to put food on his table. So he worked even harder and achieved that goal by himself.

tl;dr conservative is a very broad term, and this thread looks like it is just flamebait or at the very least, accidental stereotyping. I don't think anyone is proud to be:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Tory, bourgeois, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, in a rut, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old line, orthodox, quiet, reactionary, redneck, right, right of center, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21129 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 3):
Anyway, if we constrain our lives to a dictionary, we've reached a new low.

   This thread would have a whole lot more value if it were actually comparing policies (i.e. "are you proud to support trickle-down economics? are you proud to support increased government spending on the military?, etc.).

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 13):
Those definitions are so biased its not even funny.

No, those are the English definitions that you'd find in a dictionary. It doesn't mean much when it comes to describing political views, but it's ridiculous to accuse the English language of having a liberal bias (if it did, why would so many conservatives want it to be the official language of the US?).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3824 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

This whole thread is so ridiculous it is probably not even worth commenting, but here are a few observations on your definition of liberal anyway, just for shits and giggles.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
libertarian

In the U.S. political context, nothing could be further from the truth.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
broad-minded

Tolerant of everybody's beliefs provided it matches their own.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
radical
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
rational

How can you be these two things at the same time? These things are opposites, which one is it?

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
reformist

(just picked one word at random because, surprisingly, Progressive, that most ridiculous of words, is absent)

Liberals would be protesting the loss of good-paying, local, buggy-whip manufacturer jobs in front of Henry Ford's factories if they lived in the early 20th century... not to mention their reaction every time someone suggests reforming one of their pet programs even in the face of obvious failure.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4089 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

I have always thought it's ironic that the right wing in this country call themselves 'conservative'



This is the same group of people who support no limits for anyone on gun ownership.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8623 posts, RR: 44
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
None, not a single one, of these "either ... or ..." dichotomies is anything but a counterproductive oversimplification. It does no one but the simplest of minds any justice and helps only the people who make money from that simplicity.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Well said.

Thanks... it does seem to be a wasted effort, though.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Liberals would be

Oh well.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):

I have always thought it's ironic that the right wing in this country call themselves 'conservative'



This is the same group of people who support no limits for anyone on gun ownership.

I know plenty of conservatives that are for some reasonable gun measures, how come if they fall short of your opinion they are "nuts?" What makes your opinion better? And what is ironic about your statement? Traditionally, conservatives have been more pro-gun... more randomness in this strange thread...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
How can you be these two things at the same time? These things are opposites, which one is it?

Since when does being rational prevent one from being radical? Do not forget that the Founding Fathers were in many ways both rational and radical. Rational may mean open to reason, being lucid and having sound judgement. Radical may mean going to the root of things, which I would have thought necessary for any rational thought.


User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
I have always thought it's ironic that the right wing in this country call themselves 'conservative'

Max; there is a lot of "irony" about these days !

This is the same group of people who support no limits for anyone on gun ownership.

Inasmuch as I don't wish to wander "off topic", I'll refrain from mentioning "gun ownership" ( I will shortly be starting a thread on that topic )

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Comments?

So..........you have a dictionary that says liberals are "brilliant" and conservatives are "idiots", ( or words to that effect ) ?
( I wonder why that doesn't surprise me ? ) I'm guessing that if you were do a little research you would probably find that the company who printed that "dictionary" is either owned or controlled by George Soros. ( Who has about as much credibility in my book as Rosie O'Donnell )

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently onlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5444 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):

No, those are the English definitions that you'd find in a dictionary

Thesaurus, which is slightly different. Also, dictionary.com is not very reliable for that sort of stuff. It lists both "inflexible" and "not extreme" as synonyms for conservative, and "tolerant" and "radical" for liberal. Clearly contradictory.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):

I know plenty of conservatives that are for some reasonable gun measures, how come if they fall short of your opinion they are "nuts?" What makes your opinion better? And what is ironic about your statement? Traditionally, conservatives have been more pro-gun... more randomness in this strange thread...

He's been going around all the threads trolling in the same fashion. Just ignore it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
25 Post contains images Superfly : I've always prefered wheat bread. Does that make me a liberal? So all liberals are 'bottoms'?
26 aloges : "Radical" is not the same as "extreme".
27 rara : Elaborate? I could easily construct a radical-rational position. For instance, finding it okay to eat meat from humans who died naturally could be ca
28 Revelation : Communication is important yet imperfect, and we're stuck with the words we have, at least till other ones come into common use. I didn't say anythin
29 us330 : Interesting that people have noted the difference in meaning between Catholic and catholic, but none have bothered to point out that Conservative and
30 mham001 : Who writes the thesaurus?
31 Revelation : I completely disagree. The Catholic Church based their name on the word "catholic" because it meant "universal", not because it meant "ham sandwich".
32 Acheron : Along with "left", "communism" and "socialism". Most americans wouldn't notice any of those things even if it smacked them in the middle of the face,
33 PSA53 : Then,ok you're a racist by them.Get it out.(lol) I would say that greatly applies more to ultra liberals.Not liberals.Not Moderate left. But these de
34 Mir : Nobody writes a thesaurus. People edit them, but the content itself isn't really up to them - that comes from common usage of the English language. -
35 Post contains images tugger : It's them pointed headed, ivory tower living, edumacated, teacher type's, that think they know better then us! Those SOB's! Damn if them colleges and
36 Maverick623 : Not necessarily, but it's not just the definitions, it's the context in which they are presented. Other issues with the MIT professor's assertions as
37 DeltaMD90 : So dictionary.com is the end-all when it comes to definitions? Aren't people saying these definitions got trolled anyway? Who cares what dictionary.c
38 cedarjet : Don't know about the US, but in the UK, it's been the left that has traditionally been at the forefront of progress - from building tower blocks (in
39 Pyrex : "Progress" defined as "everything I believe in". Typical leftist attitude.
40 Post contains images flyingturtle : In French-speaking Switzerland, the liberal party is called the "radical party". I really agree with you, you conservative! You'll also find very con
41 Post contains images Revelation : I'll accept that, one intelligent a-hole to another! But here things really are polarized. I can see why some liberals can be viewed as being unwilli
42 rara : No, "progress" defined as "progress". Do we concentrate on conserving good things, or do we concentrate on replacing bad things with good things? Con
43 Post contains images aloges : Errr... thanks for making my point, but I don't think it was necessary. It can be used and/or interpreted to mean the same as "extreme", as much as s
44 Maverick623 : We're in a discussion about the English language. So it is, but it isn't. Guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is?
45 flyingturtle : But it is illustrating the other meaning of "radical", Maverick.
46 Maverick623 : In French.
47 Post contains images flyingturtle : You're a little averse to the French language. English is a very old German with lots of very old French words. Entrepreneur? Surveillance? City? Pol
48 tugger : But what are the roots of all English words??? That leads to their definitions and use in the language. Simply put, English has many, many words form
49 yyz717 : I'm a proud Canadian conservative, which means: 1. Strong belief in the private sector to grow the economy (similar to US conservatives), 2. A strong
50 DeltaMD90 : How is this ever a good argument for anything?? "Getting on the bandwagon" often is disastrous. I'd argue those points out separately IMO
51 yyz717 : As long as US conservatives keep arguing about dead issues like gay marriage, gun control, abortion (which the rest of the Western world accepted lon
52 DeltaMD90 : I generally agreed with your points but not because of the "bandwagon" mentality. I think I just missed the point of what you were saying
53 Post contains images Superfly : Long ago? Really? Was gay marriage legal 40 years ago in other western countries? How about abortion laws in Ireland? Why do you feel the need to com
54 Revelation : I read a book by an English mountain climber who pointed out all the mountaineering terms (indeed the word "mountain" itself) are French, because, we
55 DeltaMD90 : Actually many who claim to be real conservatives (take whichever definition you want) want a small government, but most of the "required functions" i
56 Revelation : Sure, defense is a required function, but it is a matter of scope. Why do we feel we need to spend more than the rest of the world combined, year aft
57 mham001 : You are right. Not delighted, but it hasn't been disastrous - in part because of a republican Congress. Split party government is not a bad thing. If
58 BMI727 : Neoconservatism has been in existence for several decades and it is not really what you describe. Neocons actually have more in common with liberals,
59 Aesma : Tax money is used to finance the oil wars, as pointed out. Wouldn't it be better to put the tax directly on the gas ? That way, you can still chose yo
60 Maverick623 : That bridge is still up for sale...
61 aloges : "Can be" is not the same as "is". I do not know how I could make my explanation any simpler.
62 vin2basketball : Thankfully... I'd rather have neither and develop shale oil at home. There is a cost, less than what environmentalists make it out to be, but a cost
63 krisyyz : The issue is not being proud of ones political ideology or position, the problem in today's world is the isolation based on ideology. People seem to h
64 Post contains images Rara : Is that some sort of joke, or did you just group all countries with a fast-growing economy under "conservative" and all countries with a slow-growing
65 jetblueguy22 : I really used to be proud of being a conservative. I really did. But as I get older and mature more I hate the blanket labels. You have these conserva
66 vin2basketball : North Korea is a communist nation....
67 bestwestern : I'd consider myself a consevative, but in the US I would find it difficult to vote with the ultra right Republican party as it stands today.
68 Max Q : You can't be a 'Neoconservative' it is a contradiction in terms. The reality is that todays Neorepublicans are as far from being 'Conservative' as yo
69 BMI727 : You'll have to take that issue up with the people that actually are neocons and coined the term a couple decades before I was born.
70 Rara : Yes, cheers for the info. In other words it's the opposite of liberal. You listed it under "liberal", perhaps by mistake, I don't know.
71 Dreadnought : Yes, cheers for the info. In other words it's the opposite of liberal. You listed it under "liberal", perhaps by mistake, I don't know.[/quote] To be
72 Post contains links Rara : Sort of. At the heart of liberalism has always been the idea that citizens should be able to live their lifes as they chose, without having the state
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