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Why Not Gun Control  
User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5405 times:

This seems to be a rather controversial subject on this forum recently; It's a subject that I think about a lot; and almost always, anything I think about a lot, I read about a lot, and I study a lot. I have read several books on the subject recently, done some "research", (google, wiki, and a few WW 2 history books) I have even gone to a few gun shows to see how people there think about gun control. I have talked at length with our county sheriff who is a good friend of mine, and now I'm willing to hear what people all over to world have to say about this matter.

I picked up some really good ideas on the subject recently from a fellow selling posters and calendars;
More about them in a minute..............

In reviewing threads dealing with gun control, one thing "stands out"............many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

I have guns, and I can assure you, I'm not "nuts", nor am I a "nut"; If I, (or anyone else who owns a gun) is "nuts", then there's a tremendous number of "computer nuts", "car nuts", "guitar nuts", "camera nuts", "cell phone nuts", "iPod nuts", and many more kinds of "nuts" on Airliners ! But I really don't think people can be considered to be "nuts" because of what things they own. I think a better understanding of people can be had, by looking at WHY they own these things. Forgetting all of the other stuff, let's look at WHY people own guns; they vary from person to person, but mostly it's because people want to feel "safe"; (wanting to feel safe shouldn't make one a "nut", IMHO)

Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I have ! At midnight, downtown Louisville, Ky. while unloading a load of new cars at a "get ready" place. I used to go to this place all the time at night; never had any trouble before..........but this time, two "thugs" decided to see what they could steal out of my truck while I was driving a unit into the building; as I came back out, there stands two "perps", one with my suitcase, and one with a gun in his hand ! Oddly enough, my first thought was, "this can't be real" ! No one with any brains commits armed robbery over a damned suitcase full work clothes ! My next thought.........ANGER ! I became VERY angry ! As I approached, meaning to get my tie-down bar, the perp with the piece started shooting ! In my direction !

Being familiar with guns, I'm thinking........it's just a .22 (from the sounds), and either the perp is the worst shot in town, or else he's shooting blanks ! ( To this day, I never found out which ) As they headed towards an alley, I retrieved my tie-down bar, and gave chase, down a dark alley; after maybe 50m yards, it hit me..........I'm out of breath, and I can't see my hand, (which is white), and it's a foot from my face ! The perps would have been much harder to see, even if I could have caught up with them, which I definitely couldn't.

On the way out of downtown I stopped at the main Police Station; what did they tell me ? ( unloading at night, un-armed ? you're lucky you're not dead ! Better get yourself a piece !

For the next few weeks I thought and thought.......finally, I talked to a guy who was a brother-in-law to my then wife; he was a Hamilton cop; He: You gotta get you a piece, bro! So we went to a gun show, and I was about to buy me a model 66 S&W 357; then I thought some more.........it was just a damned suit case ! almost no problem replacing it; but if I'd had that 357, there would have been at least one, possibly two dead perps ! Think of the lost work, the lawyer fees, the bad publicity.........plus, my company didn't allow us to "carry" ! I would have been fired ! So I changed my mind; (but I also changed my "tactics"; next time I unloaded at night in Louisville, I was "prepared" !

Now, 30 years later, things have changed; and NOT for the better ! Now things are MUCH worse ! So now, at least I have a CC permit ( which is only good in Indiana ) when I go to Chicago, it's back to square one. ( Obama's buddy, Rahm Dead-Fish
don't allow no no citizens protecting themselves in HIS town; (which has a murder rate higher than Mexico City, BTW)

OK, enough about why I want to feel safe; back to the posters & calendars at the gun show.............
I didn't buy one, and I didn't take photos; but I have a descent memory; here's what was on just a few of them;

1. Guns don't make you a killer; killing people makes you a killer; you can kill people with a ball bat or a car but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game !

2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

For all you young guys, I remember almost all of this happening ! Stalin murdered millions of his own people; So did Hitler;
I found a photo in a book that showed a Chinese Officer shooting a young girl in the back of the head, just above a ditch full of dead bodies. This is a REAL photograph folks ! This really happened !

3. A poster depicted a similar scene, with the caption: "Gun control works great as long as you are the one controlling the guns" !

4. To me, gun control means a balanced stance and a smooth trigger pull.

5. This is probably the best one of all..........(because it's so very true)............We cannot replay history but we can learn from it; if every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and 20 rounds of ammunition, and the will to use it, Adolf Hitler would be a little known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic. By Aaron Zelman

6. these two are going to be on my front door and my back door..........

"Have an EMERGENCY ? Use 1911
Average 911 response time........................around 15 minutes

Average 1911 response time....................... 2 seconds

( For those unfamiliar with weapons 1911 refers to the model 1911 Colt semi auto 45 cal. pistol. (the most widely copied design of all time )

And lastly..........."My alarm tells me you are in my house; my gun tells me "not for long"

So.........all of the above, over quite a few years, is why I choose to be able to defend myself and mine; you may think that makes me a "nut"; the U.S. Constitution thinks it makes me a law abiding citizen.


It's easy to think a great Army is a "waste" if you can never remember a war...........

It's easy to think a fire extinguisher is a "bother" if you've never had a fire............

It's easy to think all of that insurance is a "waste" if you've never had a tornado demolish your home.........

Hell.......Miss Arlie thinks it's a "waste" for me to have $...........in my new Glock when we've never even had a home invasion !

But if we ever do have, I can assure you, there will be one less "perp" to invade homes !

Do you think that makes me a "killer" ? I think it make me a very healthy 79 year old, law abiding citizen who intends to become at LEAST 100 !


And your thoughts on gun control were.....?

Charley


Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5386 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night,

Knife point, back in '84 or '85, but that hardly makes a difference.
Dad was mugged in the early '80's, by someone using a gun (heavily regulated in NY, then and now).
Mom was the victim of an attempted home invasion back in '86 or so.

[Edited 2012-08-11 01:30:22]

[Edited 2012-08-11 01:32:04]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 925 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Forget about gun control (or lack thereof), you guys need a serious, nation-wide attitude adjustment. Last week, a Michigan police officer wrote our local newspaper about how he was walking through a park with his wife here in Calgary when he was "aggressively approached" by two men, who asked them if they'd gone to see the Calgary Stampede (a glorified county fair, to be honest). When he ignored them the first time, they asked him again, prompting the man to step between them and his wife, saying "I have nothing to talk to you about". He then went on and on about how he felt threatened by these two people (who, it turned out later, were handing out complimentary passes to the Stamepede) and how he was outraged that he couldn't carry his gun to "protect" himself because of our laws here in Canada. Sure, it might seem like a reasonable response to some, but to the vast majority of Canadians, pro- or anti-gun, it's utterly absurd in every way.

From where I'm sitting, this fear of everything and everyone gripping the US is spiraling out of control and if it isn't addressed soon, will surely become self-perpetuating.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I've had two such incurences, one in a home, one at a light rail stop. Perpetrators were armed with a pistol and a rusty, broken knife, respectively.

I solved the first one with a fire extinguisher, and in the second incident I simply took the knife out of that particular junkie's hand and offered to have a nearby police officer examine it.

Things got a little messy the first time, and a little awkward the second, but in no case did I need a firearm, nor would having one have made things any better. Plus, I figure I've now used up about six lifetimes' worth of home invasion probability (for me and virtually everyone I know). Which is why I do not buy the "protection" bullshit. There are simply too many other ways to skin that cat.

For the record, that fire extinguisher did a bit more damage than I would have done with a firearm. Just saying...

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I think it make me a very healthy 79 year old, law abiding citizen who intends to become at LEAST 100 !

Hopefully you will do just that. But I don't see how having guns around will do anything for that...

Quoting MrChips (Reply 3):

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

I can assure that we're not all like that. In fact, an inexorably growing number of Americans are fed up with the gun lobby's exploitation of events like what we've seen over the last month, and it will lead to removal of the hardware involved sooner or later. The real question is how hard it's going to be fought.

And yes, you're right about our 'fear' outlook, but again it isn't everybody, or even a majority. Trust me when I say I'm not the only one who'd be embarrassed that one of our citizens felt like pulling a gun on a promoter. I'm not sure whether that's silly or sad, but it isn't a good thing.


Edited to reply to MrChips' comment

[Edited 2012-08-11 02:38:58]


Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 4):
For the record, that fire extinguisher did a bit more damage than I would have done with a firearm. Just saying...


So, you carry a fire extinguisher around???   

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 4):
I can assure that we're not all like that.


You're right, we're not all 'that'. I'm really not fearful of much. I carry a firearm to provide an additional set of options in the remote chance that I may need those options. In fact, I feel better when I know that I'm in a community where others, who have passed a background check and have passed a competency test, are similarly armed.

It's not a matter of being scared, it's a matter of being prepared. Much like insurance, I hope to never have to use it, but if I need to, I'm glad I have it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5335 times:

I agree that possessing a gun does not make one a killer. However, I think the comparison with a car is false.

A gun is by its very nature designed to kill. It is not intended purely for decoration, digging pastures or playing music: it is meant to be used to kill.

A car is designed as a means of transportation. Yes, it can be used to kill deliberately and it can result in accidental homicide but its primary function is to convey the driver and passengers from one physical location to another.

People may argue that a gun may act as a deterrent, but it is only so because of its primary purpose and the willingness of its owner to use it for that purpose.

Do I believe that people in general should not have the right to bear arms? No but I do think that reasonable limits on the type and quantity, together with appropriate training and character assessments are called for. Safe storage is a must but I am not too sure about being allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Maybe carrying it openly would be better.

But whatever laws are in place, there will always be those that wish to break them either for profit or because they think the laws shouldn't apply to them.


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
So, you carry a fire extinguisher around???   

Lol, no, that was the home invasion. I do, for the record, keep a fire extinguisher on every floor of my dwelling.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):

It's not a matter of being scared, it's a matter of being prepared.

But prepared for what, exactly? There's really nothing that you're going to able to do with a gun (and not go to jail for anyway) that's going to save the day. People have this illusion that they can be heroes when a bad guy breaks out a (legally bought in all cases thus far) rapid fire weapon, and use their own CC weapon to save the day. But the reality is that that never happens. Even in cases like AZ (The Tucson/Giffords) event, where there were people in the crowd with guns, no one fired back. There were good reasons for that, all of which completely negated the value of 'defensive' weapons.

The reality is that the wannabe heroes are actually much more likely to end up like Zimmerman, who shot an unarmed citizen, then ever helping anyone out. And that's a problem that requires dealing with.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
Lol, no, that was the home invasion. I do, for the record, keep a fire extinguisher on every floor of my dwelling.


Same here, because I want to be prepared in the unlikely event of a fire. Hope I never need it.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
But prepared for what, exactly?


For the unlikely event of needing to use a firearm. Like, say a

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
home invasion
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
There's really nothing that you're going to able to do with a gun (and not go to jail for anyway) that's going to save the day.


If the firearm is used within the law, you will not go to jail.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
People have this illusion that they can be heroes


I am under no illusion that I will be a hero. All my training is range training (though, it is the range used by the local police forces and has all sorts of 'distraction' options that are available to the public) and have never been under the stress of combat. I have no idea how I may react. Those I know that also carry, feel the same way. We talk about these things.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
But the reality is that that never happens.


Do yourself a favor if you have a Facebook account: 'Like' NRA News for a week or so. They post 'armed citizen' reports almost everyday. You'll be better informed on this particular subject.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
Even in cases like AZ (The Tucson/Giffords) event, where there were people in the crowd with guns, no one fired back.


Because if there were armed citizens, they acted responsibly and did not fire into a crowd. They paid attention to what they were doing and their surroundings.

All I want is to have additional options should I ever find my self in a bad situation. That's all.

Much like insurance or a fire extinguisher, I hope I never have to use a firearm to defend myself, but I feel better knowing that option is available to me.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

It sounds like downtown Kabul, not the US!

I come from a country were guns are highly regulated - you can get a gun but only with a hunting licence, the Police do a home check to make sure you are keeping it in a locked cabinet with the ammo separate etc but guns are starting to become the weapon of choice (although nowhere near the amount of knife crime there is).

My feeling on the situation is this - if you have a gun, then you must be prepared to use it (and kill with it if the situation calls for it). If you are not prepared to kill somebody then you should not have a gun, simple as that. I personally am glad that I live in a country with highly regulated guns (for Christ's Sake, the Team GB shooting team isn't even allowed to train here as their weapons are illegal! They have to go to Switzerland to train).

Lack of gun control has led to events like Columbine and Virginia Tech happening and while we have had similar events here (Dunblane for instance) it is good to have some sort of gun control.

That being said, an example of why gun control is a good idea is gun crime in the US. I'm not bitching about the US - I love it as a country - but there is a horrendous amount of gun crime there, and it's so easy to get a gun provided you aren't a convicted felon and have a week to wait for a background check.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

One good thing about gun related homicides in the US is that you don't have the petty happy-slapping and chav stuff going on here. You touch someone here and you never know if he has a gun and then its all over for you.   

Personal Space, man, is where its at.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11128 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Just the ones who arm themselves to the teeth for no reason. I understand people who own one or two pistols or shotguns. People hunt for their food, people live in bad neighborhoods. That's fine. But why do people *NEED* automatic and semi-automatic weapons and thousands of rounds of ammo? That should send up a HUGE red flag to the feds.

Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Don't know how you can have missed how often it is used to describe anyone suggesting there should be requirements on those who have guns.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

No, and not for lack of spending times in bad neighborhoods. If we expand a bit i have experience from several burglaries. Once at one of our homes and twice at my grandfathers place. Several times at warehouses, including where we have had guards.

All of that is minor compared to the too many women I know who have been raped.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
1. Guns don't make you a killer; killing people makes you a killer; you can kill people with a ball bat or a car but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game !

Guns make it easy for people to become killers.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

I don't think people having guns at their homes or on them would have made much difference.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
But if we ever do have, I can assure you, there will be one less "perp" to invade homes !

Do you think that makes me a "killer" ?

I think that between you and the "perp", you are the one most likely to end up dead or injured. If not you then someone among your family or friends. Most likely without any "perp" showing up.

I'm not against people owning guns. I have absolutely no problem with hunting and I have just as little problem with people using them at a range.

I do have a problem with people having them for protection without proper training. Police is supposed to have proper training but last year they shoot over a hundred rounds in to a car and the people behind it here in Miami beach. With the training I have received there is no way you open fire just because a car doesn't stop. You follow it until it stops. If someone in the car had been shooting it would be different.

I also have problems with the amount of accidents there are because they are not stored properly. Too often with the excuse to have them available for protection.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3334 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
In reviewing threads dealing with gun control, one thing "stands out"............many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Gun nuts are defined by me as the people who fawn over guns and get a high off them, it is joked that they are compensating for something   

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

This was true in the 1800's but can the US populace really defend themselves against their own government with the high tech weaponry that the US military has, using citizen organized militias as the 2nd amendment is written. If the US government wanted to take out US citizens with unmanned drones there is nothing stopping them and the fact that people have guns would be useless.

What would prevent this is that the individuals in the military likely wouldn't fire upon their own people but that is a different discussion that has nothing to do with guns and its all about democracy. Also last time I checked countries like Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan etc. enjoy the same freedoms as Americans (in some cases we have more) with gun control.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I have ! At midnight, downtown Louisville, Ky. while unloading a load of new cars at a "get ready" place. I used to go to this place all the time at night; never had any trouble before..........but this time, two "thugs" decided to see what they could steal out of my truck while I was driving a unit into the building; as I came back out, there stands two "perps", one with my suitcase, and one with a gun in his hand ! Oddly enough, my first thought was, "this can't be real" ! No one with any brains commits armed robbery over a damned suitcase full work clothes ! My next thought.........ANGER ! I became VERY angry ! As I approached, meaning to get my tie-down bar, the perp with the piece started shooting ! In my direction !

I am sorry for your unfortunate experiences, and haven't been in that situation myself.

However if held at gunpoint any remotely competent mugger I would assume would shoot if you went for your gun. They have the advantage unless the one being mugged has some serious training in the ability to disarm at gunpoint, which is a skill I would think few have.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Because if there were armed citizens, they acted responsibly and did not fire into a crowd. They paid attention to what they were doing and their surroundings.

Good on them!!

In the gun debate I wish people would see the problem with the "More Guns" side. I cannot see that if people were packing In Aurora that they would have been able to take down James Holmes without adding to the death toll.

Here are the reasons I see it this way.

- He had weapons that cops don't have easy access too.
- He was armored so it would be very difficult to take him down.
- It was dark and he used a smoke grenade.
- I simply do not trust the marksmanship of the average gun owner.

In fact in the case of this shooting the fact that assault weapons are so easy to get

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?

Same thing in DC, people buy in the neighboring states, people in Canada buy guns illegally in the US also. All this argues is that any gun control has to be federally mandated or it won't work. The reality as Michael Moore has even said its not really about the guns. There is merit that gun control would have done nothing to stop a shooting like Aurora however easy access to guns makes it much easier and raises much less red flags than had James Holmes been in say the UK.

People other countries play the same violent video games and see the same movies as Americans do but we don't kill each other with guns at the same rate, not even close per capita. As said in reply 3 the issue with gun violence in the US is more about the culture of fear and aggression than what exists in other countries.

That is the first question and gun control is the second one, figure out why you are more likely to kill each other with guns.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8876 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5184 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 3):
Things got a little messy the first time, and a little awkward the second, but in no case did I need a firearm, nor would having one have made things any better.

And what if you were a diminutive female, or worse, someone with a disease that makes you very weak?

A gun makes the weakest person as strong as the strongest. It's a great power equalizer.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8876 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
As said in reply 3 the issue with gun violence in the US is more about the culture of fear and aggression than what exists in other countries.

The high crime rates in the US come from a much lower tolerance of drugs use. You want to take on the drug gangs, they will push back.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3334 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5166 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
The high crime rates in the US come from a much lower tolerance of drugs use. You want to take on the drug gangs, they will push back.

Then makes those gangs and cartels irrelevant by legalizing drugs, but that is a discussion for another thread.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5254 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
And your thoughts on gun control were.....?

First off, there are two types of guns:

Guns for hunting and guns for interpersonal assault.

Guns for hunting are fine in book, they have a fine tradition a heritage of care, education, family values being passed down from one generation to another and of course are used for "life" i.e. human sustenance. People care greatly for their hunting firearms and how and when they are used. The education that goes along with hunting is relatively very good.

Interpersonal assault guns, handguns and assault rifles are used for killing people. They are all about fear, either instilling fear in others or addressing your fears of others. The education that goes along with them is not the same, is not caring and loving. They are "remote control off switches". They are often owned by people who have next to no training on their use. They are owned for a reason of "fear" (as I noted above) and so the mindset of the person carrying them is already an issue. I am not saying that ever person carrying a handgun is bad, but the mindset is different.

My family is a hunting family, I personally do not hunt but have gone hunting with them and have fired my family's guns in a controlled setting. Some of my family also owns handguns but again the mindset is different and you can see it, when they are teaching, and showing their skills during a hunt vs when they are firing their handguns at the range. A hunt is careful, planned, and patient. The time you would use a handgun is not (generally).

So for me I say control interpersonal assault firearms and not hunting firearms. Of course "the gun lobby" (you know, dislike "lobbies" of almost anything in general) "if you let them control one, in time they will take away the other! No gun control!" I am all for serialized ammunition, I am all for some forms of control on the ownership of guns (based on what I noted above) and for controls on sales of guns (too many end up in other countries, in the "criminals hands, no not all and it is a smaller percentage than are used legitimately here but it still needs to be addressed). Fewer guns are not a bad thing and the ability to trace them is not terrible, it will not embolden the government to "take over the people".

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):

And what if you were a diminutive female, or worse, someone with a disease that makes you very weak?


What if you're a convicted felon? Imagine that for second, you're Martha Stewart, being assaulted by someone with a legally bought semi-auto who while being a total psychopath, has a clean enough background to have been enabled to attack you in this way. How does that fit into your universe?


To answer your question, I had a broken arm at the time. That good enough? A fire extinguisher is a great home defense article. As I learned at the time, it's actually two weapons. You have step 1, discharge contents at assailant, step 2, it's a decently heavy & solid object, you do the math.

Also, they're really good at putting out actual fires. I do not know of anyone who's ever been saved from being burned to death or smoke inhalation from a P-90.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?

No, they are not too stupid. In fact, I'm sure criminals, that are able to get guns because they haven't been convicted, do it all the time. Where does that leave the law-abiding citizen that lives in those cities? Unarmed and defensless waiting on a police force that has no duty to protect them.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
- He had weapons that cops don't have easy access too.
- He was armored so it would be very difficult to take him down.
- It was dark and he used a smoke grenade.
- I simply do not trust the marksmanship of the average gun owner.

Police have plenty of access to the AR-15 platform and shotguns. Two of my good friends are police officers and both have shotguns in their vehicles and one of them has an AR-15 since he's a member of the tactical team.

While he may have been armored, getting shot would have distracted him. Get hit by a big enough round and you're going to get knocked down.

Fair enough, it was dark and he used a smoke grenade. That does work both ways. It also means that he would not be able to see people moving on him. He was wearing a mask for God's sake. Ever wear one? Your vision is retricted to what's in front of you.

Neither do I. I trust my markmanship, but would question it under a stressful situation. Someone firing back at this lunatic would still have been better than waiting for him to run out of ammunition.

Like I said, I have no clue how I would behave under similar circumstances, but it certainly is comforting to know that I may have options other than "I hope he doesn't get me...or my family". I hope to God I never have see how I react.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
I think that between you and the "perp", you are the one most likely to end up dead or injured. If not you then someone among your family or friends. Most likely without any "perp" showing up.

I understand what you are saying, and I partially agree with you; But here's what YOU don't understand; there are exactly two adults in our house, myself and Miss Arlie; no children, no friends, no "family" except for when they come to visit a few times a year. You have been reading about all of the "accidents" caused by un-trained people shooting family members; That's the part I agree on; no one should keep a loaded gun for any reason, UNLESS he / she has been properly trained, and actually has a "plan" to prevent such accidents. I didn't just run out and take a quick course on how to shoot a pistol..........I have been shooting pistols since I was 15 years old; but just knowing how to "operate" the gun is only the beginning; you must also be VERY familiar with the law where YOU live; I constantly read about that all the time; That's where my friendship with our county sheriff has been invaluable.

I'm not against people owning guns. I have absolutely no problem with hunting and I have just as little problem with people using them at a range.

About "hunting"........I live in a very rural area; we have a very large deer population, squirrels all over the place, and I could shoot wild turkeys anytime if I so desired, as they are quite common around here. But I'm NOT a "hunter"; I love animals; I buy my "meat" at the grocery store, and I eat my "steak" about 3 times a week at Ryan's in Terre Haute. ( I don't even like venison ) If I wanted to kill a deer, I could do it any morning from inside my front door, as they always come out of the woods across the road about daybreak to forage in the field. But I have no interest in killing any kind of animal; (the possible exception being the few starlings which make such pests of themselves at my bird feeders in the back yard  so far I have even refrained doing that, as I don't wish to frighten my woodpeckers and chickadees !

Now........about my pistols;

[quote=seb146,reply=10]I do have a problem with people having them for protection without proper training. Police is supposed to have proper training but last year they shoot over a hundred rounds in to a car and the

The key words here being "without proper training"; Not only do I have "proper training", I regularly go to a indoor / outdoor range only 5 miles from here and shoot targets; I ENJOY shooting targets, and I enjoy meeting and interacting with like-minded individuals who regularly come to the range, including many LE officers.

Fire extinguishers; I'm very BIG on them; I have several different kinds, from a 5 lb CO2 bottle with horn, and about five 40 lb Ansul dry chemical units. When I was in the Navy, as I was a ship fitter / metalsmith, I received a lot of intensive training on damage control; from the time I was a small child, (with a brother-in-law who was on the Cincinnati Fire Dept) until I went into the Navy in 1951, I learned a LOT about fire fighting; But I have a few more things that are even more "effective" for deterring criminal intent; one of the best, easy to carry, easy to use, easy to obtain "perp" control items, (even better than pepper spray), is an aerosol can of wasp & hornet killer; ( I get mine at Menard's for $3 a can ); shoots a 32 foot concentrated stream, very easy to aim, and VERY "effective"! One alert citizen with one can could have drastically reduced the fatalities at the recent theater incident; ( I personally wouldn't have been any help though, as I never go to movie theaters any more. )

About Chicago (and their gun control law); I love to go to Chicago; we always ride the Metra to Union Station; until just 2 or 3 yrs ago, we even occasionally WALKED over to Lake Shore Drive, but no more ! Now, you risk being "set upon" by gangs of teen-age thugs ! (see recent headlines, Chicago Tribune) So now we take a cab; however........anyone attempting to harass, rob, or otherwise molest me or Miss Arlie.........will be getting a face full of wasp & hornet killer; and while they are trying to regain their sight, they very well may receive a thrashing from my tactical baton !

See, what law abiding people who don't care to fight back, don't understand is.........street criminals do what they do because they don't expect victims to fight back ! I may be 79 yrs old, I may only be 165 lbs/ 5' 8", but I STILL fight back ! And I AM trained ! I can still give a very good account of myself if I'm attacked; it's really not just about size, or age.......it's also about "will"; I'm the type of person that while I never meet a stranger, and I love people, I also REFUSE to be anyone's victim. The older I become, the more dangerous I become to anyone with criminal intent; while I was still working for a living, I defended myself with my hands, and I did a pretty good job of it; now, I'm at the point in life now where society no longer expects me to fight back with my hands; now I use my experience, my "wits", and anything else necessary to prevent me from becoming a victim.

Gun control is just one more attempt to make me a victim.

Charley

(P.S. Sorry it took so long to say all that, but it's not something you can say in a few words )



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Why Not Gun Control 

It needs to be people control, not gun control.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2):
Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Because we are fearful of wackos like James Holmes.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 20):
Because we are fearful of wackos like James Holmes.


You know, there always has been, and there always will be wacko's, however, when I was a kid things were a lot different than they are today; we didn't have any computers, so there were no computer or video games encouraging young kids to murder people, and most kids had two parents, and usually only the father worked at a job.

Also, we didn't have movies showing people having sexual intercourse, talking like trash, and back then, you could actually believe most of what you saw on NBC, ABC, & CBS; but those days are long gone ! It's far too complex to really get into, but it's really obvious why we have so many more nut-jobs like this Holmes creep. But we do have them, and not all of them are "home grown", as the British found out when their trains were blown up.

I never imagined I'd see the day that I would be reluctant to walk from Chicago's Union Station to Lake Shore Drive either; but just three or four weeks ago, a 40 yr old man in Chicago on business was attacked and very nearly beaten to death by a gang teen agers, all within an hour of a lady and her husband nearly being killed while exiting the "elevated". If you think about this for just a minute, it's very clear; these "sidewalk criminals" know everyone is un-armed, and thereby quite defenseless; so they run amuck ! If a few of them tried this crap on someone who pulled out a (legal) weapon, and "ventilated" their skulls with a few well placed shots, the incidence of street crime would go WAY DOWN !

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15487 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2):

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Of course you'd also have to wonder what is wrong that we're all so fearful of each other that we'd feel the need to take everyone's guns away.

Personally, I neither feel the need to own and carry a gun nor do I feel the need to ban others from owning or carrying guns.

[Edited 2012-08-11 18:19:54]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

I just did a bit more research; (mainly to make sure I spell the names right)

Remember Elian Gonzalez ? Go to google and type in his name; you will shortly be looking at...........Elian as he looks today, 10 yrs later. and you'll also see a photo of Janet Reno, Bill Clintons famous Attorney General. Miss Reno is a prime example or "government power run amuck"; she is the Government bureaucrat who, due to a complete lack of judgement, common sense, (and who knows what else), ordered ATF agents in helmets and full combat dress, and armed with automatic weapons,
(yes, real machine guns) to break down the door, (without knocking), barge in and stick their machine guns in the faces of family members of this young Cuban boy, who was at the heart of an immigration dispute at the time.

(You will also see the ATF guy with his automatic weapon sticking in a frightened citizen's face)

This is the SAME Janet Reno who ordered the ATF to attack a bunch of wacko "religious nut-jobs" with automatic weapons, a battle tank, and burn down the whole building, and thus cremating several dozens of idiot men, women and little children ! (The little kids weren't idiots, only victims)

Still think YOUR government would never "do such things" ?

I'm certainly not supporting the fools who got this fiasco started; I AM pointing out, a liberal President, Bill Clinton, appointed such an idiot as Janet Reno to a position of power that was about 39 pay grades over her head ! I'm NOT a seditionist, I DO NOT advocate the violent overthrow of our government, I merely advocate electing a president capable of appointing people of sufficient common sense to be able to handle these jobs of tremendous responsibility !

Neither Bill Clinton nor B. Obama has been able to do that; and they BOTH advocate gun control................

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

Why Not Gun Control?

Gun control is hitting the target.
Enough said.


25 cmf : Remember it very well. A bunch of idiots ignoring every rule there is to keep a kid from being returned to his father because he is in Cuba. If he wa
26 GEEZER : So.... now family members who love this child, are taking excellent care of him, are IDIOTS ? Because they don't want this child to return to what...
27 aerorobnz : I don't own guns, and sure it would be nice if the gun laws were made stricter as to the type/quantity of weapon one can own, but the fact is the hors
28 scbriml : It's the same thing - paranoia. Other "First World" countries manage perfectly well without the 2nd Amendment and their murder and gun-crime rates ar
29 Post contains links something : There is a direct correlation between the prevalence of guns in an area, gun-related crimes and gun-related accidents. The tiny number of lives that h
30 cmf : I'm sure that if Cuba wasn't involved you would condemn anyone who suggested the kid should be brought up by relatives instead of his father. And yes
31 Post contains images TransIsland : McVeigh was so pissed off by the Elian Gonzalez affair, which occurred in the year 2000, that he blew up a building in Oklahoma City in 1995? Excelle
32 PPVRA : What difference does it make if a convicted felon is trying to kill Martha Stewart and he shows up without a firearm? She will still end up dead. And
33 PPVRA : If you are able to attack an assailant with a fire extinguisher using only one arm while the other is broken, that makes you a pretty physically capa
34 cmf : Martha is the convicted felon...
35 bjorn14 : Tell that to the people of Chicago and DC some of the most gun controlled cities in the US where an avg. of 8 people die a day. The research shows wh
36 cmf : Explain how that applies to Chicago and DC but not the rest of the industrialized world.
37 TransIsland : The murder count for Chicago was 433 in 2011, or 1.19 a day, or 85% lower than you claim. The murder count for Washington, DC was 108 in 2011, or 0.3
38 GEEZER : [quote=scbriml,reply=28]Have you actually been to Cuba? As a matter of fact, yes I have! However it was sometime before the "bearded one" took over...
39 DarkSnowyNight : What? So if you disagree with someone, you're automatically wrong about something? Is that what you're saying?
40 Max Q : It's more than just the 'right to bear arms' (which incidentally doesn't specify firearms) The issue for many is a feeling of being helpless without a
41 seb146 : Sweden, Norway, Canada and Japan must be like hell. Whereas Somalia and Sudan are paradise. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security
42 fr8mech : Where does it say they can't? You always bring up that specious comparison. We don't advocate for 'no government'. We advocate for smaller, more effi
43 StarAC17 : Fire back at him all you want to, but if your's or anyone else shots add to the body count you should be held responsible. No government is perfect b
44 windy95 : His quote says the average in gun controlled cities not in each of those two individual cities. And I am sure he forgot the . before the .8 which wou
45 fr8mech : I never said I shouldn't be held responsible. Everyone should always be held responsible for their actions or inactions. There should be accountablil
46 Post contains links bjorn14 : Let's start with that. Chicago murder rate will probably exceed 500 this year. http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cri...ers-for-2012-likely-to-exceed-2
47 seb146 : I see. So, just keep giving everyone guns and that will make the problem go away? Exactly. Somalia and Sudan have small governments. That's what the
48 StarAC17 : Here is the issue with that logic, you are not going to be the only person that thinks this way and unless you prove otherwise this will likely add t
49 mt99 : And the follow up question is: were all those murders performed with the types of weapons that are banned?
50 Post contains links fr8mech : I won't debate this point with you. You know it's specious and disingenuous. You shouldn't try to make a connection. Shall we read the Supreme Court
51 seb146 : Really? So, people can own as much firepower as they want? One person? Why? Why does one person need 100 automatic rifles? They are two different thi
52 Post contains links zckls04 : http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...near-texas-m-campus-183653265.html
53 YVRLTN : Its paranoia & insecurity gone mad into a vicious circle which now cant be broken. Here in Vancouver (and we are connected to the US border) we ha
54 fr8mech : I know they are different, but The Supreme Court says you don't need to draw a connection. The preamble: "A well regulated militia being necessary to
55 Max Q : This is a standard NRA line and it appeals to the most paranoid of gun lovers (ie most of them) it is also the most ridiculous. The US Government has
56 stratosphere : I think after reading your posts you are a liberal in regards to gun control and thats fine. I am actually pretty far from a gun nut. I do not hunt a
57 ROSWELL41 : Most of what you say is accurate. Owning a firearm in the United States is not a privilege - it is a right. Rights do not come from men but from God
58 Max Q : Rights coming from god eh ? Where was your god the other night in Colorado ? Your so called 'culture' is destroying this great country of ours. The w
59 ROSWELL41 : I suggest you read about the founding of your country. The answers are all there. Freedom isn't free and living in a free society has its consequence
60 aerorobnz : Rights apply to all law abiding citizens, whether they believe in God or not. They are in fact Civil privileges which can be added to/taken away at a
61 Max Q : GMAFB, As much as you don't like it that Constitution you habitually misquote gives me the right to free speech. Your relentless pursuit of guns and
62 ROSWELL41 : Perhaps things are different in Rwanda. Rights, in the United States, are not privileges and for all intents and purposes cannot be 'taken away at an
63 ROSWELL41 : I support your right to free speech. I never suggested otherwise. Nothing I've ever done has ever effected you. A gun is an inanimate object. I doubt
64 aerorobnz : Right to a civil trial by your peers (sure unless you're deemed a terrorist) Right to your freedom (unless you're one of 110000 law abiding Japanese
65 ROSWELL41 : Those are/were mistakes made in the U.S. No doubt. We have rectified two out of the three of your examples. Regardless, I believe it is the most perf
66 MD11Engineer : In the Philippines owning a firearms is also a right (under the current constitution, under both Spanish and American colonial rule as well as under
67 bjorn14 : Driving a car, flying a plane, etc. is not a right it is a priviledge. Owning an arm is a right.
68 soon7x7 : My co-worker as others here are from the Dominican Republic. They are constantly trying to get me to vacation there. One of my co-workers just went ba
69 rara : I think the cause for gun control is lost in America. Even if you guys wanted to, the cat is truly out of the bag on that one. It's become a prisoner'
70 windy95 : Because unlike some of the others mentioned gun ownership is a right not a privilege. That so called culture is what created and made this country gr
71 MD11Engineer : FFS, AUTOMATIC WEAPONS have been regulated in the US since 1934 (National Firearms Act, introduced after the Mafia gun battles and the gangsters like
72 windy95 : And no automatic weapons have been used in any of these mass killings.
73 Post contains links windy95 : One of the greatest weapons meetings in world. If you have never been to Knob Creek you should try it. Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot Night Shoot http:/
74 seb146 : And that's fine. If people want to have two or three or four shotguns for hunting, that's fine too. I understand the need for multiple hunting rifles
75 rara : Sounds about right.
76 bjorn14 : As MD11 said it is very difficult for the average Joe to get an automatic weapon. All fully auto guns have been banned for a long time in the USA. Wh
77 globeex : You mean a town with 30.000 people where, in the last 30 month, 5 people were deliberately killed by fire weapons (accidents and suicide not included
78 something : Bjorn, according to your profile you are a Norwegian and between 46-55 years of age. Based on what you have expressed in this thread, I am willing to
79 bjorn14 : I guess the 8 years I spent in Chicago and DC being educated was a total waste of time. The fact that English bobbies now have to carry guns should b
80 fr8mech : God was right there, but the right of the patrons to carry guns was taken away by the movie theater (as is their right).
81 MD11Engineer : Did you ever shoot (at cardboard targets)? You should try it. I know, it is almost impossible for me here in Germany, since I´m not a "Vereinsmeier"
82 bjorn14 : From Wiki: Gun rights activist David Kopel has claimed that there is evidence that this gun law has reduced the incident rate of home burglaries citi
83 PPVRA : The ordinance is not enforced. Though it is a city where one would expect gun ownership to be fairly common, but I have absolutely no idea if it's to
84 Post contains links and images rara : Yeah, I've shot alright. In America. Not my thing. I get the attraction of it - it makes you feel powerful. It also makes me feel like I'm wielding a
85 MD11Engineer : I explicitely mentioned PAPER TARGETS. I´m not running around getting a hard on about the though of having an excuse to kill somebody or something.
86 rara : I wasn't implying that. But we both know that firearms weren't invented to shoot paper targets. I know shooting can be a sport (and it's part of hunt
87 DeltaMD90 : Tired of debating in these gun threads, but I'll throw it out there, that's NOT what I feel... If I felt the way you did I probably wouldn't like gun
88 fr8mech : I agree. I feel satisfaction when I hit a target 600 yards away with my rifle. Or I fire a 3 inch group at 7 yards with a pistol. But, feeling "power
89 ROSWELL41 : Whatever the reason, gun control is not a serious debate in the United States. Public support for it has declined over the last 20 years and gun owne
90 YVRLTN : I do realize that, but the USA needs to realize they have a problem to a far greater degree than the rest of the western world doest. They need to fi
91 fr8mech : I'd like to be a little more clear on what the standard would be in my world, because we are dealing with a right and to deny someone that right, the
92 GEEZER : OK, it's real clear that you two don't believe citizens should have guns ! Let me tell you what I "don't believe........... I "don't believe" anyone
93 aerorobnz : Actually you are wrong about me, as I said in my first post on this thread I believe that changing the laws from what they are now to restrict guns m
94 MD11Engineer : What about the level of competency of gun safety and shooting you´ll need to pass military basic training in your respective country? Over here all
95 bjorn14 : .....or outlaws
96 Max Q : Well, I'm an American and I'm telling you its time to do something about this gun insanity. Maybe you should start listening to other people.
97 flipdewaf : Shoot first ask questions later!
98 Newark727 : I've had this debate too many times before, and don't feel compelled to jump in again. But really. Are we still holding onto the "we might need to ove
99 fr8mech : I don't espouse the belief that the reason to own and carry firearms is to keep a tyrannical government at bay, though the Founders and signatories o
100 Max Q : What on earth are you talking about ? That literally makes no sense at all !
101 Newark727 : Fair enough. I'm kind of wondering what the vision was for who would be carrying out such anti-tyrrany measures and how, given the connection with mi
102 fr8mech : That's the point I'm trying to make. It's the deterrence argument. We are, literally, at a point where a potentially tyrannical government can not ma
103 Newark727 : I think we're talking past each other or I don't quite understand you, at least when you say we are literally at a point. As in right now? Because th
104 Post contains images YVRLTN : You didnt read my post carefully enough then as I said And But then I said Bury your head in the sand if you want, maybe next time it will be you or
105 fr8mech : Yes. Right now, a hypothetical, nascent, tyrannical government would have no choice but to move first against The Second Amendment and then onto its
106 Newark727 : Eh, I'd say it depends on what type of tyranny we're talking, here. But it's all hypothetical, anyway. Don't attribute to Rahm Emmanuel, what's been
107 StarAC17 : Then don't post your opinions on guns in a forum that has international members who you know will disagree with you. We do but you asked people in an
108 fr8mech : But, if you're intent on keeping power, what prevents you from seizing power 'undemocratically' if the populace is unarmed? I'm a staunch defender of
109 TransIsland : Then way I read reply 26, it refers to Elian Gonzalez, but whatever. So... you are suggesting that American citizens should not tell Iran what weapso
110 MD11Engineer : Posted this on another thread (we currently have three threads running about the same subject): As I have stated before, gun ownership should be avail
111 Post contains images scbriml : So how does a US government keep power against the wish of the people? An incumbent president loses the election and decides he doesn't want to go -
112 MD11Engineer : I think that enough like-minded people could start an assymetric (guerilla) war, gradually extending the scope. I also think that individuals or even
113 rara : I think the main mistake people make is that they think of a "them versus the government" scenario, in which the government is put at a disadvantage
114 Post contains images cmf : True, you did not use the word hate. You did use poor, pathetic old maid, incompetent and a fair number of statements that she failed to do things as
115 scbriml : That's exactly my point - the US military is not going to turn on the American people. That's what's stopping a rogue US government, not the fact tha
116 MD11Engineer : Um, from 1933 to about 1944 a majority of Germans were actually quite supportive towards an authoritarian dictatorial and criminal regime. The armed
117 scbriml : Yes, they supported it. The exact opposite of what I'm talking about - claiming that US citizens need be armed to protect themselves from a tyrannica
118 MD11Engineer : Just BTW, I know at least one case where, during the "Night of the Long Knives" in 1934, when after Hindenburg´s death Hitler crashed down on his in
119 bjorn14 : Source? Tell that to the Jews and Germans who opposed Hitler.
120 fr8mech : No, it's my opinion that, absent a major crisis (say a nuclear weapon being detonated in the US), it would be near impossible for a sitting president
121 globeex : Really? Using the argument that you need firearms in order to be prepared to overthrow a president that unrightfully takes over power? If that really
122 cmf : How many people staying in a safe room have been shot compared to people confronting with a weapon. I.e., so you can overthrow them. Whatever is done
123 scbriml : As was pointed out above, the majority supported the actions of Hitler's government. That's what the Supreme Court ruled, but even then there were fo
124 fr8mech : I am not, and I don't need to be, according to the US Supreme Court. If you look at my post in reply 91, I think our standards of competency and/or a
125 Post contains images YVRLTN : Obama is not going to turn into Hitler. I can not see such an occurence as the rise of the Nazi party happening again in the western world and certai
126 fr8mech : I didn't know he had a DUI. Then yes, under my critrea, he would not be allowed to own a firearm until such a time as that DUI has lapsed. Now, I kno
127 Newark727 : Most hobbies and industries that require regulation generally adopt some minimum level of standards for their members, if only to raise the entry bar
128 MD11Engineer : Depending what you were convicted of, over here in Germany criminal convictions are generally disregarded (means they still appear in some police dat
129 bjorn14 : Maybe not Obama but the US is already seeing it at the local level with SWAT teams and "no knock" warrants in which deadly mistakes have been made (i
130 Post contains links bjorn14 : .......and then there is this US Police Chiefs Adopt Drone Code of Conduct http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...e-chiefs-adopt-drone-code-conduct/ I
131 cmf : I would be happy if they are but from what I see you focus on the technical part. I think that part is required but in my mind it is 10% and knowing
132 yyz717 : Of the many Canadians that love the US, we all shake our heads in dismay at the gun-crazy US culture. You are killing each other. Guns simply are not
133 Post contains links ajd1992 : Tell that to people in the UK who have a lot of gun control. There were 11227 incidents in 2010 (not murders, just a gun being fired or whatever) in
134 Post contains images StarAC17 : Having a gun no matter how powerful isn't likely going to protect you from an unmanned drone. This is an issue with how the US is governed and I have
135 Post contains links us330 : How about bullet control? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II
136 bjorn14 : When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
137 cmf : When I see statements like this... I think probably would be better with only outlaws having guns. Ignorant one liners isn't contributing to a soluti
138 Post contains images StarAC17 : Doesn't happen in other industrial nations, there are shootings in Toronto being used from illegal guns purchased from the states. Its an issue but a
139 PPVRA : Curious thing is, suicide in Japan is higher than in the US by a lot. You'd think that accessibility to firearms would mean higher suicide rates, but
140 StarAC17 : Yes that is the big issue. What is it that causes these mass shootings in the US?? Speaking of Toronto, the shootings are gang related and they are k
141 PPVRA : Mass shootings are abnormalities, whether in the US or in Europe. Do away with all mass shootings and I doubt the stats will change significantly. Ho
142 Mir : If that's true, then the argument that having more guns available to citizens reduces gun violence doesn't hold water either. -Mir
143 PPVRA : How does that follow?
144 Max Q : Very well said. The gun nuts love the inane one liners as they can't think beyond that. Well said.
145 pvjin : Yeah I think US should definitely get better gun control... We here in Finland have also one of the biggest amount of guns / population, although it's
146 PPVRA : Hey, there's a one liner! A second one-liner, too, in response to the first and both are completely devoid of any substance!
147 bjorn14 : Legally, only US citizens and 'green card' holders can buy guns in the US. Since 1986, automatic weapons have been banned in the US.
148 Post contains links fr8mech : No, as I recall, the law in question (Firearm Owners Protection Act) banned the manufacture, importation and/or transfer (to civilians) of "machine g
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