Quote:
Friday night President Obama will host his fourth annual Iftar dinner in the State Dining Room to celebrate the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. During Ramadan, observant Muslims fast from sunup to sundown and often break their fast with a communal Iftar dinner in the evening.
Oh my! Obama celebrating the Muslim holy month in the open, right in the State Dining Room! See, he really is a Muslim! What is this world coming to???
Quote:
The tradition of hosting an Iftar dinner at the White House began under President Clinton and has been continued by both President Bush and President Obama.
falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 29 Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4515 times:
As long as they have dinners to celebrate other religious holiday's I'm fine with it. I have participated in events that are from other religions than mine and I like it.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4447 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): We all know how awful Dubya was as President, so I guess Obama is just as bad. After-all, he only compares himself to Dubya.
Nah, he compares himself to Clinton, who was the last President to have a balanced budget, although he has questionable taste in women (Hillary, Jennifer, Monica, etc.). I'd take Michelle over any one of them. BTW, is she a closet Muslim too?
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): The problem is that he is the ONLY President that had Ministers arrested for praying in front of the White House on the National Day Of Prayer.
So Obama had ministers arrested? Please cite your source.
Also cite your source that proves Obama is a Muslim.
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4406 times:
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4379 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 11): It's the opening line of the article. Obama lives in the White House.
I seriously doubt an Imam would have been treated like this.
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
Also, where is your link proving Obama is a Muslim?
Why bother?
So you won't support either claim in any sort of serious way?
Security arrested the minister following a set of rules established for all protesters. Getting arrested for protesting is nothing new and many groups - liberal, conservative and everything in between - break rules for gathering as a group as a way to get attention for their cause. Standard operating procedure.
To pretend this man was arrested for his religious beliefs is extremely dishonest.
And those who insist Obama is a Muslim in light of all we know are either willfully ignorant or simply mendacious.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4371 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 11): It's the opening line of the article. Obama lives in the White House.
I seriously doubt an Imam would have been treated like this.
Security told the group to move. They did not move, so they were arrested. They were NOT arrested for praying. They were not arrested by Obama himself. It was White House security who arrested them. They were arrested for not following the rules and being too close to the fence. This is not about religious freedom, as you (and the article) would have us believe. It is about a religous group breaking the rules. They were told to move and they didn't. If an Imam were told to move along and didn't, he would be arrested as well. Tell me again how Obama hates Christians?
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 13, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4369 times:
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 12): And those who insist Obama is a Muslim in light of all we know are either willfully ignorant or simply mendacious.
Continue with the insults with those you disagree with. It really helps the discussion.
I don't need to prove anything to you and besides, we've argued this over and over again. Not sure why you're expecting a different result.
Personally, I don't like his associations and he seems very comfortable with this religious group. If he was consistent, then I'd respect that but his is not. He makes many rosy quotes from the Qu'ran but the only time I recall him quoting the Bible was when he was mocking it. Personally I am not a religious person but I see Obama to have a religious bias that I am uncomfortable with.
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4350 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): I don't need to prove anything to you and besides, we've argued this over and over again.
...and yet you still won't cite any sources. And you never have. But you're content to continue smearing the President, using unfounded claims.
It seems you would like to frame this discussion as two parties who simply disagree. This isn't simply about disagreement; this is about one party in the argument who refuses to support his claim by citing facts.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 15): ...and yet you still won't cite any sources. And you never have.
Actually I have but after awhile, people get sick & tired of arguing. I had given you one source and you were not satisfied with it. I had been to the same fence those preachers were arrested. I seriously doubt an Imam would have been arrested in the first place. There is no way in hell that this current White House would do such a thing.
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 15): It seems you would like to frame this discussion as two parties who simply disagree. This isn't simply about disagreement; this is about one party in the argument who refuses to support his claim by citing facts.
...and there is so much information out there for you. But of course it's so much easier to just call people "ignorant" or simply "mendacious". Why even bother wasting my time having a discussion?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 12): Security arrested the minister following a set of rules established for all protesters. Getting arrested for protesting is nothing new and many groups - liberal, conservative and everything in between - break rules for gathering as a group as a way to get attention for their cause. Standard operating procedure.
And then they go "But we were praying! And we're Christian! You're persecuting us for being Christian!"
Next thing to happen is that a church bus will get pulled over for doing 95 MPH and some right-wing paper will say: "CHURCH BUS PULLED OVER FOR BEING CHRISTIAN"
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6050 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4314 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): I had given you one source and you were not satisfied with it.
And no where in your "source" does it say the Obama administration ordered the arrests, no where. So you have no source.
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4265 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): Why even bother wasting my time having a discussion?
...and yet you still won't cite a source. You really don't have anything, do you?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4193 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
So, Obama is allegedly Muslim but he sat in a Christian church for 20 years. But, that wasn't the right flavor of Christian church.
Classic hate speech tactic, really. "He's a Muslim."
This implies: 1) All Muslims are bad. 2) Once a Muslim, always a Muslim. 3) You are a Muslim by birth or by inherent characteristic; there is no way to convert away from being a Muslim, even if you sit in a Christian church for 20 years.
Just like Hitler saying that 1) All Jews are bad. 2) Once a Jew, always a Jew 3) You are a Jew by birth and renouncing your Jewish faith means nothing.
I don't casually draw Hitler parallels, but I calls 'em when I sees 'em.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): Actually I have but after awhile, people get sick & tired of arguing. I had given you one source and you were not satisfied with it.
OK. I'm still playing. Please cite the part of your source that states that Obama or his administration had anything to do with it. I will point out that no President or administration directly runs the the day-to-day operation of the physical White House, including security.
falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 29 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4118 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Yet he continues to offend Atheist by hosting these Ramadan dinners.
The atheists I know only seem to be offended by anything Christian and nothing by any other religion. They also claim to know more about religion than the faithful, but usually don't, they just can quote a lot of bible verses they don't make sense. Nearly all of the atheists I have met are people who were raised and Christians lost their faith for some reason or another. They seem to have more of a problem with Christians than religion in general. Maybe if I was in another part of the world where Christianity isn't as common I may find more atheists who just seem to dislike their former religion.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21): there is no way to convert away from being a Muslim
Some Muslims would say you cannot convert. I have had several Jewish friends who say that you can't stop being a Jew because it is a race as well as a religion.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 5): Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):We all know how awful Dubya was as President, so I guess Obama is just as bad. After-all, he only compares himself to Dubya.
Nah, he compares himself to Clinton
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4109 times:
Quoting falstaff (Reply 22): The atheists I know only seem to be offended by anything Christian and nothing by any other religion.
Well, then meet a different one. I'm offended by any religion that preaches that subscribing to that religion makes you better than other people.
I have no problem with any religion that preaches that you should simply be a good person.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 22): Maybe if I was in another part of the world where Christianity isn't as common I may find more atheists who just seem to dislike their former religion.
Most atheists in this country have a problem with Christianity because it is so-called "Christians" trying to ban the teaching of science in schools, abortion, birth control, gay rights (and sometimes even gay breathing), etc. So far, Muslims have not been on that bandwagon even though their religious beliefs would concur because those same "Christians" think that their religion makes them better than everyone else, especially Muslims.
I assure you have at least as big a problem with right-wing Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism. However, those religions aren't causing that much trouble in this country.
imiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4087 times:
The defining characteristic of muslims, the most important pillar, are the five daily prayers. There is a consensus amongst the scholars that if you intentionally forego your prayers then you're not a muslim. From the little I've read, Obama doesn't pray, therefore he's not a muslim.
One of two classic Superfly bailouts, the other being "give it a rest already".
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6): He said it in an interview. I doubt the voice was faked. It sounds like him.
Of course that's him. It's 100% clear from the video what he means by it.
How does that work - if I say "In all my life, it's never happened that I intentionally put somebody else's house on fire", you take out "[...] I intentionally put sombody else's house on fire", and suddenly I'm a convicted arsonist? I gotta remember that one.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 25, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4121 times:
Quoting falstaff (Reply 22): The atheists I know only seem to be offended by anything Christian and nothing by any other religion.
The athiests I know are offended by religous zealots who insist on believing their way. People who believe United States is a Christian nation or that if Isreal is not bombed off the face of the earth, you must be bombed off the face of the earth as well. As a Christian, I am offended by those who hate. That would include a lot of the right-wing political people in these United States.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 22): But he blames all of his problems on Bush.
Two wars, trillions of debt, crashed economy... .Yeah... that was all Obama....
sprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 2 Reply 26, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4111 times:
God I really hate these posts. I need to look to see if G.W. hosted any Ramadan stuff, bet he did. Lets get to the real point of this. PRESIDENT Obama hosted a dinner for a religious group,like all presidents do, and gets flame for it. Where was the outcry when he did it for the Jews?http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06/07/3097621/white-house-to-host-dinner-for-peres ?
Now if Mitt would only show me his TAX returns for the past 10 years.
blink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5430 posts, RR: 19 Reply 27, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4110 times:
Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 27): I need to look to see if G.W. hosted any Ramadan stuff, bet he did.
Yep, sure did. According to the article linked at the start of this thread, the iftar dinner was started by Clinton and continued by Bush. This happens yearly, and I don't think there has ever been any coverage until now.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 28, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4108 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 26): The athiests I know are offended by religous zealots who insist on believing their way. People who believe United States is a Christian nation or that if Isreal is not bombed off the face of the earth, you must be bombed off the face of the earth as well. As a Christian, I am offended by those who hate.
As an atheist, I find your religious views to be intellectually irrational. BUT I have no problem with you holding them if that's what pulls you through and makes you a better person.
I have a BIG problem when people think that their religious beliefs make them superior to others or that God will favor them because of their religious beliefs (rather than the way that they treat others).
Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 27): Where was the outcry when he did it for the Jews?
No no no. Not allowed to be anti-Semitic in the USA. Been unfashionable since the Holocaust. By contrast, a good portion of the GOP is blatantly and openly anti-Muslim because that *IS* fashionable at the present time.
sprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 2 Reply 29, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4097 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29): I have a BIG problem when people think that their religious beliefs make them superior to others or that God will favor them because of their religious beliefs (rather than the way that they treat others).
Doc, as a Christian, I take offense to you actually knowing why religion exists. You should be put to death as soon as the last connoisseur of 8-tracks is I.E. Superfly.
GEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1431 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4067 times:
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7): Also cite your source that proves Obama is a Muslim.
My "source" is right on my face; they're called "eyeballs" ! If you would use your's as much as you do your keyboard, maybe you'd be able to see what everyone else sees.............namely that Obama tends to "hang out" with a lot of "creepy people";
( such as known domestic terrorists, ( think: Bill Ayres ), and radical "rabble-rousers" pretending to be "preachers"........
Here's a test: if you start "hanging around" with as many "questionable people" as Obama has (and still does), you'll start "taking heat" for it as well !
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29): No no no. Not allowed to be anti-Semitic in the USA. Been unfashionable since the Holocaust. By contrast, a good portion of the GOP is blatantly and openly anti-Muslim because that *IS* fashionable at the present time.
Doc; Your rant about the GOP being "racist" is really wearing very thin ! (and I'm sure you already know it)
We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11; there were no jews among them, there were no Sikh's among them, there were no Buddhists among them............and there weren't even any Russians among them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they were ALL Muslims ! That's a hard, cold, fact ! Now.........does that PROVE that I hate all Muslims ? I'm afraid it may to some people,
( especially if they are closed-minded and want to believe that ) I don't hate Muslims; I only hate people who want to blow up MY country, and very many of those people are in fact, Muslims ! But I continue to interact with Muslims who do things I admire, such as Muneeb Mohamad, (a young man in the U.A.E.) who I consider to be a world class photographer. If I "hated" Muslims, I wouldn't have emailed him and told him how much I admire his photography.
You have heard me disagree with you about things; but you have never heard me say I "hate" any group, and you have never heard me insult you or anyone else ! All of this name-calling is so much crap ! Now, on with the discussion !
Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
Confuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3636 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4055 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 11): Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
Also, where is your link proving Obama is a Muslim?
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 32, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4034 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Yet he continues to offend Atheist by hosting these Ramadan dinners.
And not just dinners for Muslims but for Jews as well. Shock, horror!
On May 10, 2010, the White House issued a press release noting that on Thursday, May 27, 2010,
Quote:
President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama will host the first ever White House reception in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month. The reception serves as an opportunity to highlight and celebrate the range and depth of Jewish American heritage and contributions to American culture, with guests representing the many walks of life that have helped weave the fabric of American history. Invitees include a range of community leaders and prominent Jewish Americans from Olympians and professional athletes to members of Congress, business leaders, scholars, military veterans, and astronauts.
While the proclamation of Jewish American Heritage Month had been initiated by his predecessor, Obama was the first President to introduce a special dinner in recognition of it. Should I now conclude that Obama is a secret Jew? The fact is that the President hosts all sorts of dinners for all sorts of people and events. It goes with the job.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12338 posts, RR: 12 Reply 33, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4023 times:
I appreciate President Obama's openmidedness as to faith, not just giving in to Christian absoluists including acknowlgment of those of the Islamic faith by hosting such a dinner.
Confuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3636 posts, RR: 2 Reply 34, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4013 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31): Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
Also cite your source that proves Obama is a Muslim.
My "source" is right on my face; they're called "eyeballs" !
You just might be right...(no pun intended). Hmmm...
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 35, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3982 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31): We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11
Saudis and Yemenis, IIRC. Why does their nationality matter? Oh that's right... since Jews intertwine their religion with their nation it is the only thing that matters.
Blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11 is like blaming ALL Christians for the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers used religion as a weapon to do what they believed was right. It was not.
Plus, blaming all Muslims for 9/11 is stupid and false and getting really really tired.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29): I find your religious views to be intellectually irrational. BUT I have no problem with you holding them if that's what pulls you through and makes you a better person.
That is exactly what I am talking about. You believe what you want. I believe what I want. That does not make either of us any less of a person and does not hurt either of us at all. If those right-wingers would just understand that.
Quoting blink182 (Reply 28): the iftar dinner was started by Clinton and continued by Bush.
So they are both Muslim and need to be thrown in Gitmo immediately???
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14358 posts, RR: 26 Reply 36, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3983 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31): We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11; there were no jews among them, there were no Sikh's among them, there were no Buddhists among them............and there weren't even any Russians among them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they were ALL Muslims !
Who parked a bomb laden truck in front of the Murrah Federal Building? It wasn't Muslims.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Confuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3636 posts, RR: 2 Reply 37, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3979 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37): Who parked a bomb laden truck in front of the Murrah Federal Building?
....or Centennial Olympic Park...or UNiversity & Airline BOMber.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3926 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31):
My "source" is right on my face; they're called "eyeballs" ! If you would use your's as much as you do your keyboard, maybe you'd be able to see what everyone else sees.............namely that Obama tends to "hang out" with a lot of "creepy people";
( such as known domestic terrorists, ( think: Bill Ayres ), and radical "rabble-rousers" pretending to be "preachers"........
So okay, you have the extraordinary power of detecting Muslims simply by looking at them. You can also tell by pure context-free association that Obama is exactly like these "creepy people" who are presumably also Muslim? I honestly can't tell what angle you're trying to take here other than the extremely logical one that the person elected to be the President of the United States is actually a secret Every-Bad-Thing and is trying to destroy everything America cares about by virtue of.... existing?
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31): Doc; Your rant about the GOP being "racist" is really wearing very thin ! (and I'm sure you already know it)
Thin or not, true or not, you're doing an excellent job of proving it right. See below:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31):
We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11; there were no jews among them, there were no Sikh's among them, there were no Buddhists among them............and there weren't even any Russians among them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they were ALL Muslims ! That's a hard, cold, fact ! Now.........does that PROVE that I hate all Muslims ? I'm afraid it may to some people,
( especially if they are closed-minded and want to believe that ) I don't hate Muslims; I only hate people who want to blow up MY country, and very many of those people are in fact, Muslims ! But I continue to interact with Muslims who do things I admire, such as Muneeb Mohamad, (a young man in the U.A.E.) who I consider to be a world class photographer. If I "hated" Muslims, I wouldn't have emailed him and told him how much I admire his photography.
You have heard me disagree with you about things; but you have never heard me say I "hate" any group, and you have never heard me insult you or anyone else ! All of this name-calling is so much crap ! Now, on with the discussion !
Well you're off to a great start by assuming everyone thinks the same way you do about Russians as well.
Anyway, aside from what everyone else has already pointed out about the nature of the acts of terrorism committed against the United States in the past, the religious affiliation of the 9/11 attackers inferring ANYTHING about the attitude of Islam and its practitioners toward the United States as a whole isn't just one causation fallacy, it's at least a half dozen causation fallacies stacked on top of each other like cheerleaders making a human pyramid. Furthermore, regardless of the inherent racism of the whole "I only hate people who want to blow up MY country and by the way most of them are Muslims" attitude the debate of which I will leave to another time and hopefully another poster, it's that attitude, that you can generalize the enemy by lumping them into some (largely unrelated) group, that allows the people more bigoted than yourself, the real maniacs, to gain ground. Distrust, generalization, and scapegoating. It's how you make an entire nation hate.
CaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3890 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31): Doc; Your rant about the GOP being "racist" is really wearing very thin ! (and I'm sure you already know it)
yeah most of the GOP is racist though; just look at the 2008 election....
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 41, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3824 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): Continue with the insults with those you disagree with.
You can't agree or disagree with lies, in the same way that you can't agree or disagree with facts. They're not open to interpretation.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): Personally I am not a religious person but I see Obama to have a religious bias that I am uncomfortable with.
You're implying that being not anti-muslim is bad. If you think that's a tolerable attitude to have, then that my friend is something I truly strongly disagree with. Ironically, because your attitude is insulting to others you don't agree with.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): I had been to the same fence those preachers were arrested. I seriously doubt an Imam would have been arrested in the first place.
Yes, the United States is notoriously hospitable and accomodating of muslims.
Just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. It makes it a ''Truthiness''.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 43, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3775 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28): As an atheist, I find your religious views to be intellectually irrational. BUT I have no problem with you holding them if that's what pulls you through and makes you a better person.
Speaking of lumping diverse groups togethere, good job of characterizing all religious people as desperate people needing to be "pulled through" life by their "irrational" beliefs!
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30): My "source" is right on my face; they're called "eyeballs" ! If you would use your's as much as you do your keyboard, maybe you'd be able to see what everyone else sees.............namely that Obama tends to "hang out" with a lot of "creepy people";
( such as known domestic terrorists, ( think: Bill Ayres ), and radical "rabble-rousers" pretending to be "preachers"........
Well if your "eyeballs" are telling you that, may I suggest you get your "eyelids" examined, since they seem to be closed more than half the time?
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30): We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11; there were no jews among them, there were no Sikh's among them, there were no Buddhists among them............and there weren't even any Russians among them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they were ALL Muslims ! That's a hard, cold, fact ! Now.........does that PROVE that I hate all Muslims ? I'm afraid it may to some people,
( especially if they are closed-minded and want to believe that ) I don't hate Muslims; I only hate people who want to blow up MY country, and very many of those people are in fact, Muslims ! But I continue to interact with Muslims who do things I admire, such as Muneeb Mohamad, (a young man in the U.A.E.) who I consider to be a world class photographer. If I "hated" Muslims, I wouldn't have emailed him and told him how much I admire his photography.
See, you have all the facts right there, but just aren't making the connection.
Let me try to see if you can make the connection:
Just because SOME Muslims are terrorists, it doesn't mean ALL Muslims are terrorists, not by far, which means it has NOTHING to do with the Muslim faith!
SOME Muslims twist their faith to justify terrorism, but that does NOT say anything about the Muslim faith, it says something about those particular Muslims!
Quoting Superfly (Reply 42): Nah, he just has the ability to call a spade a spade.
In my experience, that expression often is used to indicate someone who is a close-minded simpleton. It takes no special "ability" to call a spade a spade, it indicates a strong lack of concern or sensitivity and in many cases, sensibility. So, I don't think you are paying anyone a compliment by using that expression.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 42): When is Obama gonna host a Players Ball?
Then I'll feel like I'm being represented.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 45, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3715 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 43): In my experience, that expression often is used to indicate someone who is a close-minded simpleton. It takes no special "ability" to call a spade a spade, it indicates a strong lack of concern or sensitivity and in many cases, sensibility. So, I don't think you are paying anyone a compliment by using that expression.
That's 'your' experience. My experiences have been different. Perhaps you need more experiences.
I show zero "concern or sensitivity" towards those that aim to kill and have zero tolerance for others with views that do not line up with their warped religious views.
Simple as that.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 43): Too bad you missed out on the ones Clinton held!
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 46, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3680 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 45): I show zero "concern or sensitivity" towards those that aim to kill and have zero tolerance for others with views that do not line up with their warped religious views.
Right, but we're talking about how others get lumped in with those that "aim to kill and have zero tolerance for others with views that do not line up with their warped religious views" because they happen to be one of (approximately) a billion and a half people who follow the world's second largest religion.
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 47, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3669 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 45): Too bad you missed my post acknowledging that.
We missed your post citing the evidence Obama is actually a Muslim too. Where is it?
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 48, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3643 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 46): because they happen to be one of (approximately) a billion and a half people who follow the world's second largest religion.
I don't care.
It's not incumbent on a US President to 'reach out', appease and apologize to any religious group. The burden is on the peace loving one's to prove to the rest of the world that they're not on board with terrorist.
Hosting dinners will not solve the problem.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 49, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3643 times:
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30): Doc; Your rant about the GOP being "racist" is really wearing very thin ! (and I'm sure you already know it)
Nope, the GOP's anti-Islam behavior is wearing thin.
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30): We all know who hi-jacked the planes that gave us 9-11; there were no jews among them, there were no Sikh's among them, there were no Buddhists among them............and there weren't even any Russians among them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they were ALL Muslims !
And all those right-wing terrorists in the US, like the one who shot up the Sikh temple and the one that blew up that Federal Building in OKC? ALL Christians! That's a cold, hard fact! I don't hate Christians. I just hate the ones who want to blow up/shoot up our country! And the ones who want to pass laws outlawing my very existence.
Great. Where were we now?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 43): Speaking of lumping diverse groups togethere, good job of characterizing all religious people as desperate people needing to be "pulled through" life by their "irrational" beliefs!
I'm terribly sorry if you're offended by my view of religion, but there it is. I can agree to disagree. You can find my atheism irrational (although it's not, by logical definition). I'm willing to let you.
Do you know why? Because I'm an American, too. And I have freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion if I so choose. And so if you want to believe in a magical man in the sky who loves you and who will punish you if you're bad, then you go do that and don't bother me about it. I don't need it, and I won't bother you about it. And if you want to be offended by my view of your religion, you go and be offended. Knock yourself out.
Meanwhile, I'll continue my work providing medical care to underserved kids and spending my off time homing homeless dogs because I don't need religion to remind me to be a good man.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3630 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 48): It's not incumbent on a US President to 'reach out', appease and apologize to any religious group.
He's not appeasing and apologizing. He's acknowledging that a prominent world religion has an important holiday. Not a bad thing for the leader of a supposedly pluralist nation to do.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 48): The burden is on the peace loving one's to prove to the rest of the world that they're not on board with terrorist.
Since when? Apply this condition to any other extremist member of a larger group and see if it still makes sense. Do evangelical Christians need to prove that they don't bomb abortion clinics? Do libertarians need to prove that they accept the existence of municipal fire departments? Do environmentalists need to prove that they don't set dealer lots full of Humvees on fire?
cargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1169 posts, RR: 9 Reply 51, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3625 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 48): At a bunch of right-wing sites you wouldn't approve of.
In other words, you don't have any sources.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): Actually I have but after awhile, people get sick & tired of arguing. I
I've watched you say these things again and again and again. It isn't that people get sick and tired of arguing, it's that there's nothing to argue over because you've never once provided any real evidence to support this outlandish claim.
Never, not once. The latest link you provided had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PRESIDENT'S RELIGION.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): But of course it's so much easier to just call people "ignorant"
If you make statements that are not true over and over and over again, about things which are pretty easy to find out, eventually people will make judgements about you because you're saying stuff that doesn't appear to have any basis in reality.
If you were saying "Obama has bright red hair, he just dyes it black (and gray)!" we'd be saying the same things. To any outside observer, that's what your claims look like.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Continue with the insults with those you disagree with.
It's not a question of disagreeing.
It isn't a debate. He's not a Muslim. He's never been a Muslim. And you've never been able to provide any evidence to even suggest that he is.
When confronted with the President's long history of being a Christian, you claim that he's only faking and then reiterate the idea that he's "secretly" Muslim, when there's no evidence to support that claim. Funnily enough, you've been happy to talk about the influence of Reverend Jeremiah Wright on the President, but also maintain he's Muslim.
This isn't "disagreeing" about a disputable point like say, "Ford Mustangs are better looking cars than Chevy Camaros," it's one party believing things that simply aren't true and discounting overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's more like saying "Kenworths are smaller vehicles than Lotus Elans."
It's sort of like you saying that 2+2=5. When we say that 2+2=4, you respond by saying "It's secretly 5 in a Halloween costume."
When asked how you came to that conclusion, you obfuscate or give sources that are only vaguely related to the subject at hand.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 52, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3604 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49): I'm terribly sorry if you're offended by my view of religion, but there it is. I can agree to disagree. You can find my atheism irrational (although it's not, by logical definition). I'm willing to let you.
I'm not offended, just pointing out that you are lumping all religious folks together. It's just as close-minded as someone saying all gays are members of the Man-Boy Love Association.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49): And so if you want to believe in a magical man in the sky who loves you and who will punish you if you're bad, then you go do that and don't bother me about it.
IMHO that's a pretty wrong-headed and close-minded view of what religion is, but if you don't want to change your mind, so be it.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49): I don't need religion to remind me to be a good man.
Neither do I, but I feel it helps me a better man (not better than others, better than I would be without religion).
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 53, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3582 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 52): IMHO that's a pretty wrong-headed and close-minded view of what religion is, but if you don't want to change your mind, so be it.
What exactly is wrong about it?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 52): I'm not offended, just pointing out that you are lumping all religious folks together. It's just as close-minded as someone saying all gays are members of the Man-Boy Love Association.
No. I'm just going with a factual definition. By definition, all ABRAHAMIC religious people believe in a supernatural deity who will punish them if they behave badly. Where they vary is what constitutes "behaving badly" and what constitutes "punishment." You cannot be theologically Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai'i and not believe in God.
What I did NOT say is that all religious people are hateful or violent. That would be like the accusation you make above.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 54, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3592 times:
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 50): Do evangelical Christians need to prove that they don't bomb abortion clinics?
No need to. All of those bombers have been tried & convicted and send to jail by other Christians.
Quoting cargolex (Reply 51): you've never once provided any real evidence
Yes I have but there is no reason to dig up old arguments when in the end it's just going to lead to insults and threads getting locked. I'll never convince you and you'll never convince me. So what is the point?
No need to raise your voice and type in ALL CAPS.
It's not that serious.
andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8298 posts, RR: 11 Reply 55, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3581 times:
Quoting comorin (Reply 2): (Iftar is the feast after sundown, for all you kaffirs!).
Come here and use that term, you will be in jail so fast your head will spin. That term is HIGHLY offensive to the majority of South Africans, it is our N word.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
SFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3569 times:
Quoting andz (Reply 55): Come here and use that term, you will be in jail so fast your head will spin. That term is HIGHLY offensive to the majority of South Africans, it is our N word.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 2485 posts, RR: 35 Reply 57, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3547 times:
Quoting andz (Reply 55): Come here and use that term, you will be in jail so fast your head will spin. That term is HIGHLY offensive to the majority of South Africans, it is our N word.
Almost every word has a bad meaning somewhere. Something my uncle and cousin love. The live on helping companies find least offensive versions of good company and trade names. Typically by changing spelling so it becomes different enough in the offending regions.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 59, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3489 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49): And so if you want to believe in a magical man in the sky who loves you and who will punish you if you're bad, then you go do that and don't bother me about it.
I'm a Christian who:
> Doesn't believe in a magic man in the sky
> Does believe there is a God
> Does believe God loves me and everyone else (although I can't define God or love to N degrees of precision)
> Doesn't believe that God uses punishment when I'm bad
> Does believe that God is about acceptance
It's a very complicated subject, and you certainly are free to not buy any of it, but I'm just as free to call you close-minded for lumping all religious people into one group.
The best thought I can leave you with is that it is hard to understand infinite wisdom with our non-infinite minds. I bet you'll think that's illogical, but we're talking about the realm of belief, not logic.
The usual suspects put out rumours that there wouldn't even be Christmas Trees at the Whitehouse but as the following link shows this, like pretty much everything the usual suspects say was itself suspect. In the video, note Obama's words, "wish you all Merry Christmas.
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 63, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3324 times:
@ SFBdude,reply=61
The first president who took official notice of Hanukkah was Jimmy Carter, when he lit the National Menorah. He was the first President to specifically limit his Christmas Address to “to those of our fellow citizens who join us in the joyous celebration of Christmas.” Previous Presidents had expressed views similar to F D Roosevelt who stated “the teachings of Christ are fundamental to our lives.”
Bill Clinton was the first President to light a menorah in the Whitehouse but it was G W Bush who hosted the first Hanukkah Party, a practice followed by Obama.
President Obama is the first President to participate in Diwali celebrations at the White House.
Then there is the annual Easter Egg Roll on the lawn of the Whitehouse. This event has been held since 1878 with the exception of during both World Wars.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3028 posts, RR: 17 Reply 64, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3317 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 45): I show zero "concern or sensitivity" towards those that aim to kill and have zero tolerance for others with views that do not line up with their warped religious views.
Simple as that.
Superfly, i am a Muslim, something you know already, i refuse your accusation that all Muslims are out there with the only aim is to destroy and kill. Now if only you can get it than only few hundreds of over a billion have such aims then you will stop your continuous attack on a great religion like any other religion on earth.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 48): The burden is on the peace loving one's to prove to the rest of the world that they're not on board with terrorist.
In the USA your are innocent till proven guilty. But you want me to prove my innocence before you have ant proof that i am a terrorist. Sorry that is not acceptable.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4813 posts, RR: 9 Reply 65, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3302 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53): By definition, all ABRAHAMIC religious people believe in a supernatural deity who will punish them if they behave badly.
Not really what I was taught as a Catholic, must be a Protestant thing. I was taught that god loves us no matter what and the punishment for sin was sinning itself. In a way I guess it made it easy to do away with the whole thing, not much risk involved ! But that was only getting rid of the religion, as I never could believe in the magical man.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 63): Bill Clinton was the first President to light a menorah in the Whitehouse but it was G W Bush who hosted the first Hanukkah Party, a practice followed by Obama.
President Obama is the first President to participate in Diwali celebrations at the White House.
Then there is the annual Easter Egg Roll on the lawn of the Whitehouse. This event has been held since 1878 with the exception of during both World Wars.
Reading that you start to see how it's becoming a hassle, soon the US president will be doing that every day, since I'm sure each day is a special one in some religion !
When former president Sarkozy went to see the Pope there was quite the outrage here ! Even though the French president is "first and only honorary canon of the Papal Archbasilica of St. John Lateran" in Rome.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 66, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3294 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 65): Not really what I was taught as a Catholic, must be a Protestant thing.
Really? You never learned about Hell? I find that very hard to believe.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 59): > Doesn't believe in a magic man in the sky
> Does believe there is a God
These statements are mutually exclusive. You either believe in God or you don't. You might not believe that he's "in the sky," (a little poetic license on my part), but he's a "magical/supernatural being." If you don't believe in a magical or supernatural being, you're an atheist.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 59): > Doesn't believe that God uses punishment when I'm bad
You cannot be a Christian and reject the concept of Hell because Hell is central to Christianity. All Christian views believe that Hell is where the souls of the unsaved suffer for eternity. However, what constitutes being "saved" vs "unsaved" varies greatly.
If you don't believe in Hell, you aren't Christian. You might be a non-denominational who uses Christian iconography, but you can't be Christian if you don't believe that the "unsaved" or "wicked" will be tormented in Hell. The closest you could get is "Unity Church," which is arguably not truly a Christian church.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 67, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3287 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 65): Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):By definition, all ABRAHAMIC religious people believe in a supernatural deity who will punish them if they behave badly.
Not really what I was taught as a Catholic, must be a Protestant thing.
ummm.... no....
I was raised in a Protestant sect. My partner was raised Catholic. So much self-hatred and self-punishment in the Catholic religion for going against "God's will". In my church, we believe that, as long as you try to live as Christ taught, you will go to heaven. No matter if you are white or black or gay or straight. Heck, you don't even need a huge building with stained glass and 24K gold icons everywhere. Just two or more people rejoicing in His name. Catholics, as I see it, pray to this saint and that saint and feel they will probably go to hell because they said the wrong word during services.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 69, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3187 times:
I believe in God, the exact form God takes is obviously up to debate.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 66): You cannot be a Christian and reject the concept of Hell because Hell is central to Christianity.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 66): If you don't believe in Hell, you aren't Christian.
So, is a closeted homosexual gay? Or are you only gay when you come out to your family, or you wear pink at your local Gay Pride parade, or only after you're first in line at the Jiffy Lube at Burning Man?
Point being, of course, that there is no litmus test for gayness nor Christianity either...
It took me all of two seconds to find some pretty detailed opposite views of Christianity's take on Hell.
Quote:
Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. This study will cause you to re-examine current teaching on hell and urge you to further study on what happens to the wicked after death.
I was righteously indignant when, a number of years ago, a caller uttered these words on a call-in radio show I was conducting. Perturbed by his haphazard use of Scripture, I pointed out to him and the audience, that hell couldn’t possibly be something invented by Catholic theologians because Jesus talked about it. I forcefully read some of the passages where Jesus did, and concluded that hell couldn’t possibly be the invention of an apostate church.
I now believe that hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante’s Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory—we know that’s not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism. The purpose of this study is to briefly analyze Jesus’ teaching on hell (more correctly gehenna, the Greek word for which hell is given), to see whether these popular concepts are grounded therein.
A lot of my understandings come from scholars who study the New Testament written in Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke. A lot of things suffer when they get slammed through Ancient Greek then King James English.
You might know this if you were a tiny bit open minded on the subject...
It also didn't take me long to find out that Catholics say such teaching come from Heretics, so there must be something to it, no?
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 70, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3102 times:
And, after all this discussion on Christianity, it has yet to be pointed out to me where in the Constitution it says there is a religous test for president. Where does it say the president MUST be Christian? Follow up question: Why does it matter what religous celebrations Obama hosts?
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5318 posts, RR: 47 Reply 72, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2991 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 66): If you don't believe in Hell, you aren't Christian. You might be a non-denominational who uses Christian iconography, but you can't be Christian if you don't believe that the "unsaved" or "wicked" will be tormented in Hell. The closest you could get is "Unity Church," which is arguably not truly a Christian church.
I'm not sure I believe in Hell actually. I feel that everyone (even Hitler) is loved and will pay in some way even if it's in extreme guilt but I believe God is completely "forgiving"
Quoting seb146 (Reply 67): Catholics, as I see it, pray to this saint and that saint and feel they will probably go to hell because they said the wrong word during services.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 73, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2984 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 69): So, is a closeted homosexual gay? Or are you only gay when you come out to your family, or you wear pink at your local Gay Pride parade, or only after you're first in line at the Jiffy Lube at Burning Man?
Point being, of course, that there is no litmus test for gayness nor Christianity either...
A Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the path to salvation. Salvation from... hell. What exactly hell means is up to interpretation.
Now, can I find arguments justifying just about ANYTHING based on either "the original aramaic" (or hebrew or whatever)? Yes. I've found justification that the Bible bans all alcohol, including wine. You could also argue that Westboro Baptist Church is following God's word.
But if someone is arguing that there is no hell, then it's a stretch to call that argument "Christian."
We can go back and forth because there is no absolute litmus test as to what is "Christian" and what isn't. Why? Because there is no absolute truth. So no, I can't "win" this argument, and neither can you. I've studied a LOT of Bible. I've read the OT three times front-to-back and the NT twice (and the Q'uran and the Book of Mormon). You are claiming that you have some access to an absolute truth that is in the Bible. That's religion for you.
And because there is no actual demonstrable truth, and because it can be "interpreted" any way you like, I argue that it is an absolute lack of rationality. So thank you for proving my original point.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 69): It also didn't take me long to find out that Catholics say such teaching come from Heretics, so there must be something to it, no?
But the Catholic church is the only true church, didn't you know? Ask them.
Oh wait. The Orthodox church is the only true church. Ask them.
Oh wait, they're both wrong. Ask Martin Luther... And round and around and around we go!
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 74, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73): But if someone is arguing that there is no hell, then it's a stretch to call that argument "Christian."
Well, you are just wrong. There are many Christian sects that do not believe in hell. There are many that believe Jesus died for our sins and thus has provided eternal victory over evil. There are many who feel that Jesus himself never taught about hell, and that it's an invention of Catholic writers (see above).
Sorry, Doc, but reading the Bible back to back a few times is no guarantee of anything, especially not being a judge of what other people get when they read the Bible.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73): And because there is no actual demonstrable truth, and because it can be "interpreted" any way you like, I argue that it is an absolute lack of rationality. So thank you for proving my original point.
One can just as easily say that there is no demonstrable truth that men should love men, therefore being gay is irrational.
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1528 posts, RR: 1 Reply 76, posted (9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2837 times:
Is there any evidence to suggest that Obama is Muslim? No.
Would there be a problem if he was a Muslim? No.
Can a non Muslim have a party to celebrate a Muslim festival? Yes.
Would that make someone a Muslim? No
I fail to see what the issue really is here?
Can someone explain because I'm having real trouble understanding why people gt so up in arms over him.
bhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2811 times:
flipdewaf, because like the 2nd Amendment, alot of folks here in the US do not REALLY understand what the 1st Amendment means. Hence all of the end runs politicians and voters try to do around laws like Roe v. Wade and flag burning. They believe Liberty is only "allowed" if you follow their tenets.
And I did once raise my right hand and swear to protect those rights.
As far as I understand it (as an outsider), the first amendment basically says anyone is free to choose any religion and believe what they like without consequences but they must not force their beliefs on anyone or let religion dictate the rule of law.
bhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0 Reply 79, posted (9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Flipdewaf, the original idea, as I understand it, was for the State to not recognize ANY religion such that recognizing it would have influence on the creation of Law. This is why my head wants to explode when the conservatives in this country always drag God and religion into their pandering for votes. Liberty and religion NEVER mix. Look at all of the historical cases the Supreme Court has heard over the years...
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 80, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2696 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 74): One can just as easily say that there is no demonstrable truth that men should love men, therefore being gay is irrational.
cws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 2 Reply 81, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2671 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
Also, where is your link proving Obama is a Muslim?
Why bother?
During the 2008 campaign, Gen. Powell made the astute observation that even if President Obama were Muslim - "so what?" Why is that necessarily a bad thing? He is an American citizen who has met the constitutional requirements of being the President of the United States. He was sworn in by the Chief Justice of the United States (twice).
What does his religion, or lack thereof, matter?
The person in the office matters, not his or her background. In fact, the first president born after the Revolutionary War - Martin Van Buren - didn't speak English as his first language - he spoke Dutch. Can you imagine how that would play today? And even if it played badly in the media, why would it really matter?
rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1829 posts, RR: 3 Reply 82, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2609 times:
Quoting cws818 (Reply 81): What does his religion, or lack thereof, matter?
By all likelihood, a Muslim would not be elected president in the United States. Whether for the wrong reasons or not, this is undeniably so. In that sense, the fact that he's not a Muslim carries some significance.
To be honest, I would have a problem voting for a Muslim. It would make me feel uncomfortable, in the exact same way as voting for a Christian would make me feel uncomfortable. I wouldn't like that fact that the person I vote for sees the world as the creation of an omnipotent being, serving which is the highest purpose humans can find. Not saying that it would completely prevent me from voting for a Muslim, but it would definitely be a factor in my decision.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 83, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): So far, Muslims have not been on that bandwagon even though their religious beliefs
Wait til they do then they'll want to kill all the homosexuals.
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30): Here's a test: if you start "hanging around" with as many "questionable people" as Obama has (and still does), you'll start "taking heat" for it as well !
As the old saying goes "You are the company you keep"
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 40): yeah most of the GOP is racist though; just look at the 2008 election....
Then by that logic 96% of black people in America are racist too because they voted for Obama based on the color of his skin.
In fact, as Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng explained to Jodi Kantor of the New York Times: "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."
She didn't say except for Lil' Barry.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4677 posts, RR: 17 Reply 84, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2571 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80): Quoting Revelation (Reply 74):
One can just as easily say that there is no demonstrable truth that men should love men, therefore being gay is irrational.
I'm sorry but... wait... what?
Look, his name is Revelation so we have to listen to him. As for Hell, I just finished reading The Divine Comedy and there is no way Mr. Alighieri could have made up all those graphic details...
As for my views, I think it is great that Mr. Obama has a unique background of being multilingual, multicultural, and multilingual and he did the right thing, just like Mr. Bloomberg, in respecting all beliefs.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 83): As the old saying goes "You are the company you keep"
Ah yes, old sayings: the weather vanes of opinion truth
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 83): In fact, as Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng explained to Jodi Kantor of the New York Times: "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."
As a half sister it would be dificult to dermine wheather she thought of Baracko as part of her family, I believe they did not spend their entire childhood together. Based on the fact that she said "My whole family was muslim" and Baracko said he has never been a muslim would suggest that she did not class him as a part of her family.
You will note however is that he may have been born into a Muslim family, and apparently muslims believe that makes you definitively a Muslim whereas in fact Barack was as much a Muslim at age 3 as you were a christian at age 3 or indeed your son will be a christian at age 3 I.E. Absolutely not a single tiny bit. In the Muslim culture you will still be determined to be so even if you have not made a choice. Seen any babies in church lately, you think they are Christians?
No one is born a christian, no one is born a Muslim just the same as no one is born an astronaut.
Why Are you so adamant that he is a muslim?
and what would be wrong even if he was? (and not the old "well if he was then why won't he admit it") What difference would it make if a muslim had been voted into office?
Can you answer those questions honestly bjorn
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3028 posts, RR: 17 Reply 86, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2516 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 83): Wait til they do then they'll want to kill all the homosexuals.
I am a Muslim and i have no intention of killing anybody, As for sexual preferences, it is not for me to decide if this is wright or wrong, your choice your life, so enjoy it.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 87, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2491 times:
Quote: ra·tion·al
[rash-uh-nl, rash-nl]
adjective
1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational.
4. endowed with the faculty of reason: rational beings.
5. of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers: the rational faculty.
Science suggests that "romantic love engages a motivation system involving neural systems associated with motivation to acquire a reward rather than romantic love being a particular emotion in its own right. The results lead us to suggest that early-stage, intense romantic love is associated with reward and goal representation regions, and that rather than being a specific emotion, romantic love is better characterized as a motivation or goal-oriented state that leads to various specific emotions such as euphoria or anxiety.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 89, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2311 times:
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 85): Why Are you so adamant that he is a muslim?
and what would be wrong even if he was? (and not the old "well if he was then why won't he admit it") What difference would it make if a muslim had been voted into office?
Same thing as: the bombing of Pearl Harbor was carried out by a country who practices Shinto. Therefore we can never ever have anyone in office who practices Shinto since all Shinto hate America. Carrying that logic forward: All Muslims are evil because those who claimed Islam as their faith carried out the 9/11 attacks. That is the logic of the far right who are most vocal in this country.
NASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3084 posts, RR: 5 Reply 90, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2074 times:
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 92, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2015 times:
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6): Also cite your source that proves Obama is a Muslim.
Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 93, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2014 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 92): Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5318 posts, RR: 47 Reply 95, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 92): Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
Also cite your source that proves Obama is a Muslim.
Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
There are a few nasheeds I like more than any Christian song I've heard... does that make me Muslim? (I'm Catholic btw)
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 97, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1904 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 92): Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
I'm surprised you can't believe that a person who belongs to one faith cannot appreciate and see the beauty in a ritual, song or prayer of another religion.
This type of mindset seems simplistic to me and much more in line with cheering for a high school sports team than truly embracing the great mystery of our existence and of the universe.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 98, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1901 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 92): Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
I like the story of St. Sebastian. I guess that makes me Catholic. I have seen some really cool yamikas. I guess that makes me Jewish. I also like the call to prayer. So, I am Muslim. Wow. Me... A Catholic, Jew and Muslim all rolled into one. Imagine....
How does someone liking the Muslim call to prayer make that person a Muslim?
Also: Where in the Constitution (the right-wing says they love the Constitution so much) does it say the president MUST be Christian?
bhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0 Reply 99, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1871 times:
Soon7x7....whot?????? I'm not Catholic or Episcopalian, but I often tune into Compline services on the radio. Very relaxing. You need to think REALLY hard next time before you let fly a thought.....
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3028 posts, RR: 17 Reply 100, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1858 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 92): Mr. Obama himself. The "call to prayer" according to the lips of Mr. Obama is "the most beautiful sound in the world". Right from the sources mouth. Don't think Christians or Jews would agree.
I know and sing few Xmas songs, does that make me a Christian?
I studied in a catholic school does that make me a Christian?
I have a lot of Christian friends, Jews also, what religion should i join?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10494 posts, RR: 20 Reply 101, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1819 times:
Guess liking Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is an automatic baptism?
Quoting bhill (Reply 99): You need to think REALLY hard next time before you let fly a thought.....
Wasn't a thought...it was a fact.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 100): I know and sing few Xmas songs, does that make me a Christian?
Your statement is not in the same context.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 100): I studied in a catholic school does that make me a Christian?
I have a lot of Christian friends, Jews also, what religion should i join?
You are a moderate Muslim and if the muslim movement here in the US was populated by those such as yourself their would be fewer issues. The reality is issues do exist here in the US with Muslims. Many will respond with "What issues, cite your sources"...If you an air breathing American living here in the US and you watch, listen or read the news, then you acknowledge that we do have issues here. Do I really have to remind anyone what 9/11 did for the reputation of Muslims here in the US or the world for that matter. View footage of Muslim Festival , an annual event in Detroit and witness the hate that goes both ways. So for most in the US and I say most...Having a Muslim president at this juncture does not bode well with just about any one I have had dialogue with. If the moderate Muslims were to become a more outspoken sect of American society and try to reverse the underlying sentiment in this country, our population at large would probably respond much more favorably. But this has not been the trend. You and I have spoken many times. I read the "Noble Quran"...thanks to you. I am a Christian but my reading of the Quran no more makes me a Muslim anymore than your enjoyment of Christmas music makes you a Christian.
Personally, I don't like Obama, he lies, he is not the transparent one he purported to be. He panders to anyone he get get a vote or a campaign dollar from. Given the status of muslim relations here in the US, I also don't believe if he is in fact a Muslim, then he should not be running this country. SOHBI. Would a Catholic ever be allowed to be in the drivers seat in Saudi Arabia. I doubt that day will ever come. I was born in the US while it was for the most part a Judea/ Christian nation, etc, etc. And our Constitution as everyone knows was based on the aforementioned. I have been fully aware of the existence of Islam in the US since the 60's. I could have cared less until I and the world witnessed the extent that hate can go to. (9/11). The black panther party was the initial kick off since the 60's for my realization. But who cares?...this is a large FREE country and anyone is allowed to practice whatever they please. But freedom does have its limits. 9/11 occurred 35 miles from my home...Since 9/11 we have been under constant threat, our lives have changed considerably, I am reminded every time I travel why I am groped by TSA characters. So in short I feel the US would be better off with the absence of Sharia law in its legal fabric, I feel the existence of "Mercy Killings" of daughters by their fathers in this country will never be understood...it shouldn't...it is murder here in the US. Many here agree with me but none will express it. Only the ones that will just tell me to "source" or attempt to remind me that I'm ignorant. Well my favorite cliche..."Don't piss on my head and tell me it is raining".
This country has come a long way. Unfortunately it has regressed in many ways. Mr Obama in many ways has done a lot to contribute to its regression, more than his predecessors. And the future here looks grim for now as I really don't see any other solutions. Radical Islam still threatens the US and everyone in it...even Muslims. So next time we are attacked and many more killed and everyone stands around the ruins snapping photos with their smart phones, just think of how much more freedom your personal life will be lost. Why?, because the wrong people are running this country. The beliefs of a President of any country should fundamentally be alligned with the countries doctrine or constitution and the desires of its people. Most here in the US liked it here just the way it was...To campaign 4 years ago on the premise that "I will fundamentally change America" and move forward "hope and change"...really?!, We were doing fine, struggling, but doing fine....so who is this guy........really?
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 104, posted (9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1726 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): The reality is issues do exist here in the US with Muslims. Many will respond with "What issues, cite your sources"...If you an air breathing American living here in the US and you watch, listen or read the news, then you acknowledge that we do have issues here.
Yes, of course we will demand you cite sources and examples.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): Having a Muslim president at this juncture does not bode well...
We don't have a Muslim president. And yet you continue to assert that.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): ...this is a large FREE country and anyone is allowed to practice whatever they please. But freedom does have its limits.
And what are freedom's limits? Do we limit freedom when it comes to our citizens who happen to be Muslim?
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): So in short I feel the US would be better off with the absence of Sharia law in its legal fabric...
Please demonstrate/cite how Sharia law is our country's legal fabric.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): Mr Obama in many ways has done a lot to contribute to its regression, more than his predecessors.
Let's see, he started two wars, started a torture program, reversed a surplus and turned it into a trillion dollar deficit, established two very expensive government programs whose costs didn't kick in until after his presidency was over.
Oh wait! That was the president before Obama!
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): The beliefs of a President of any country should fundamentally be alligned with the countries doctrine or constitution and the desires of its people.
How is the President's doctrine fundamentally misaligned with the constitution and the desires of people? Please cite examples.
I am stunned and amazed at the degree of fantasy you have exhibited in this most recent posting. Very little of it has any standing in reality. Do you realize that? These sound like a handful of far right wing talking points, none of which are based in actual fact.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 106, posted (9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1698 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): If the moderate Muslims were to become a more outspoken sect of American society and try to reverse the underlying sentiment in this country, our population at large would probably respond much more favorably.
No because a majority of the media is controlled by right-wingers who believe all Muslims are evil. Which is really too bad that they can't tell the difference.
You keep mentioning 9/11. So, let me put it in perspective. The terrorists who want to kill Americans and see America brought to it's knees are a small sect of Islam. Translated to Christianity so you understand: It would be like 9/11 carried out by members of the Church of God With Signs Following and the entire media calling all acts of terrorism from then on "carried out by Christian terrorists", no matter what their denomonation or where they are in the world AND pointing out the evils of Christianity at every turn.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): Would a Catholic ever be allowed to be in the drivers seat in Saudi Arabia.
Since Saudi Arabia is it's own country with it's own rules and does not and has no obligation to treat it's citizens like Americans....
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 108, posted (9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1662 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): C'mon...I know your smarter than that.
I am. Some people apparently aren't. When you asked to cite a source "proving" that Obama is a Muslim, you said that his contention that the Call to Prayer is beautiful is proof.
Now you are all askance when I call you on it?
I do wonder... Suppose that Obama made a concerted effort to celebrate Jewish, Christian, Bahai'i, Hindu, Bhuddist, etc. holidays in the White House, but absolutely avoided Muslim holidays. What would the "Obama is a Muslim" crowd say then?
I can tell you EXACTLY what they would say. They would say that his avoidance of Muslim celebrations proves that he's hiding his Muslim beliefs.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 101): Guess liking Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is an automatic baptism?
Good thing I don't... Although I do like some carols. Hmm... little did I know I was Christian!
Then, call him for what you really don't like in his way of running the country. But accusing him of being a Muslim is not one of his shortcoming, if he has any.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): But freedom does have its limits. 9/11 occurred 35 miles from my home...Since 9/11 we have been under constant threat, our lives have changed considerably, I am reminded every time I travel why I am groped by TSA characters.
My friend, if you allowed the terrorists to make you live in fear since 9/11, then i am afraid to say that they won, being careful is accepted we all should be, but living in fear is not the way to go.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): So in short I feel the US would be better off with the absence of Sharia law in its legal fabric, I feel the existence of "Mercy Killings" of daughters by their fathers in this country will never be understood.
I lived in the USA for over 25 years, never saw Sharia law there. As for the killing, well take them to court and judge them, they deserve whatever sentence they get.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): I also don't believe if he is in fact a Muslim, then he should not be running this country. SOHBI. Would a Catholic ever be allowed to be in the drivers seat in Saudi Arabia. I doubt that day will ever come
There nothing in the USA constitution which says what religion the president should be. On the other hand there no Christian Saudi.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): If you an air breathing American living here in the US and you watch, listen or read the news, then you acknowledge that we do have issues here.
I breathed American air for over 25 years, was there on 9/11. What i can not understand is why some there can not understand that whoever was behind 9/11 represented a very tiny fraction of Muslims world wide.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
No wait a minute, you can't do that to us. I'm all about listening to various opinions, but really, how does him thinking it's the most beautiful sound make him a Muslim? He lived in Indonesia as a child, he heard the call to prayer a lot, it's probably really nostalgic to him. I don't discard that he may have been a Muslim as a child but isn't now (not like it really matters) but you've got many Atheists here that love the childhood religious traditions they used to (and many still) do. Please explain you're line of thinking, because it really looks like we're making a huge assumption there.
Plus, I don't see a problem with American Muslims. I've known a few, they were great people. I really hate the whole "Christian terrorism" bandwagon (the one that claims we have a Christian terrorism problem, although small) but there seems to be more of that here than American Muslims. You had the Ft Hood shooter, some taxi driver that killed his 2 daughters, and I can't really think of anyone else (but I'm sure some more isolated incidents existed.) But then you have Christian abortion bombers, Tim McVeigh, etc
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 111, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1603 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): What i can not understand is why some there can not understand that whoever was behind 9/11 represented a very tiny fraction of Muslims world wide.
Simple answer might be that they don't want to. The old, old story: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 113, posted (9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1585 times:
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 107): I would certainly love to see a source for this comment!!!!
FOX is on everywhere. Dial around AM radio and you hear right-wing rhetoric. This board is constantly quoting and citing right-wing sites. Yet, when anyone, and I mean ANYONE even thinks about quoting the only three "liberal" sources (MSNBC, salon.com, HufPo) there is hell to pay. The media is right-wing based and controlled. Don't even give me that.
IMO, Indonesian Muslims are vastly different than Saudi or Yemeni Muslims. I have taken two cruises. The crew is about evenly divided between Indonesians and Phillippinos. And Dutch on the bridge. The demeanor of the Indonesians are very different than those of Middle Easterners. Portland has an Islamic community mainly from Africa and the Middle East. Having lived in Portland with them for five years, that is an observation I made.
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 115, posted (9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1548 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5): Obama: "My Muslim Faith"http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&f...ture=player_embedded&v=bMUgNg7aD8MHe said it in an interview. I doubt the voice was faked. It sounds like him.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): Then, call him for what you really don't like in his way of running the country. But accusing him of being a Muslim is not one of his shortcoming, if he has any.
I will...I don't like his policies, his arrogance and quite frankly his skin color nor his religion have anything to do with how I feel about his Presidential Performance. I am open minded. I wouldn't care if the President was pink or married to a man. Just perform the job according to the will of the country. If he is in fact a Muslim, then that proves what a great country to date, the US has been, especially after an attack such as 9/11. After Pearl Harbor, could anyone envision a Japanese President?. It is or could have been possible here in the US if the individual proved his capabilities. He is failing the American people where it matters most...economics, health care and he ignores the core of the American people until he campaigns again. Another 4 years of his policies will ruin beyond repair, America.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): My friend, if you allowed the terrorists to make you live in fear since 9/11, then i am afraid to say that they won, being careful is accepted we all should be, but living in fear is not the way to go.
If this were an isolated event, fine, but the threats still keep coming. Remember, I reside 35 miles from what is perceived as the global ground zero. While fear is not the correct term, situational awareness would be a better approach. Others that reside in the central US or other coastlines here only know the emotion they experienced through TV or other means of communication. And to make your point, where the government is concerned...the terrorists did win. I'll give them credit for execution of a plan. The beltway boys in DC should operate so efficiently. Takes congress 51/2 months to make a decision on something then they go on 6 week vacations.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): I lived in the USA for over 25 years, never saw Sharia law there. As for the killing, well take them to court and judge them, they deserve whatever sentence they get.
Sharia hasn't been even discussed here until in recent years...same with mercy killings, they are a relatively new occurrence here.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): There nothing in the USA constitution which says what religion the president should be. On the other hand there no Christian Saudi.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109): I breathed American air for over 25 years, was there on 9/11. What i can not understand is why some there can not understand that whoever was behind 9/11 represented a very tiny fraction of Muslims world wide.
I rest my case...then moderates here such as yourself in the best interest of all Muslims should make an attempt to quell misconceptions if they in fact do exist. This has not happened. The result would be suspicion.
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1829 posts, RR: 3 Reply 116, posted (9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1545 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 114): The obvious fallout from such an event would be anti muslim sentiment...does it really have to be explained?
Yes, but..... wait, what? Is THAT the justification of your own anti-Muslim sentiment? That other people think so too?
First you say that Obama is a Muslim. Then you say you dislike American Muslims because there are "issues". The biggest issue for you is 9/11, and when pointed out that 9/11 had nothing to do with American Muslims, you say it nevertheless caused anti-Muslim sentiment? How could that possibly justify anything?
Seeing your comments and the kind of response they elicit here, I'd go easy on the wallbanger-smiley, by the way.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 118, posted (9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1526 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 116): Yes, but..... wait, what? Is THAT the justification of your own anti-Muslim sentiment? That other people think so too?
If I pocessed Anti-Muslim sentiment I would not have any dialogue with SOBHI51...think about it. In fact I look forward to dialogue with him. He is one of the most level headed and fair individuals I have met here on the threads. As I also stated above...I don't care what religion or skin color the president, as long as he is qualified to perform the job well and in a positive fashion that has no detrimental effects on its people...something Mr. Obama has not achieved nor does he care. Finally, I have been to your country many times and have first hand witenssed anti muslim sentiment so lets not throw stones here. Gutentag...
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1829 posts, RR: 3 Reply 119, posted (9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1519 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 118): If I pocessed Anti-Muslim sentiment I would not have any dialogue with SOBHI51...think about it.
What's there to think about, it's a nonsensical statement. What does one thing have to do with the other. You could theoretically hate someone and still have a conversation with them.
Your reply #103 exhibits quite a bit of anti-Muslim sentiment, and the fact that you respect SOBHI51 (as we all do) sounds suspiciously like "really, some of my best friends are black/gay/Jewish, BUT...."
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 115): moderates here such as yourself in the best interest of all Muslims should make an attempt to quell misconceptions if they in fact do exist. This has not happened.
What? This is happening in every country, every day. It's become a standard routine for many Muslims to "quell misconceptions". No I don't beat my wife. No I don't hate your country. No I don't arrange my daughter's marriage. It must be extremely tiresome for them, and I don't envy them.
You make it sound like SOBHI51 is some noble exception, while in fact he's very representative of most every Muslim I've spoken to in the Western world.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 118): Finally, I have been to your country many times and have first hand witenssed anti muslim sentiment so lets not throw stones here. Gutentag...
Again, what does that have to do with anything? There's LOADS of anti-Muslim sentiment in Germany, in fact it's becoming something like a mainstream view in certain circles. The mosque in my street is a regular target for vandalism (pigs' heads dropped into the courtyard etc.). Why would you even mention that - does it make your views better if many Germans think the same?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 120, posted (9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1508 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 119): Your reply #103 exhibits quite a bit of anti-Muslim sentiment, and the fact that you respect SOBHI51 (as we all do) sounds suspiciously like "really, some of my best friends are black/gay/Jewish, BUT...."
LOL...that's kind of funny actually but no, it's not the case. I reside in an extremely diverse area and have my entire life. Live and let live. It is hard especially coming from the NY area to demonstrate that 9/11, an obvious tragedy, an obvious fact of life and will go down in the history books...having said that to pretend such an event could never create a bias towards the ideologies/people behind it would be naive. I never stated that I hate muslims nor did I state all Americans do. I don't much like the IRS but does that mean all IRS agents suck? If what I have stated so far is not true then why has the president danced around his very quiet relationship with Islam? If he were a christian then why does he celebrate Ramadan. Why does he embrace the Muslim brotherhood. Shoot straight with American people Mr. President.That's all we ask.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 122, posted (9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1471 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 120): Shoot straight with American people Mr. President.That's all we ask.
So he is part of a group that attacked us on 9/11 and we should hate every single one of them but he also sat in a Christian church for 20 years whos leader we should hate. In other words: we should hate him because he is a Muslim and we should also hate him because he is not the right brand of Christian. Make up your minds, people! That's all we ask.
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 123, posted (9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1460 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 122): So he is part of a group that attacked us on 9/11 and we should hate every single one of them but he also sat in a Christian church for 20 years whos leader we should hate. In other words: we should hate him because he is a Muslim and we should also hate him because he is not the right brand of Christian. Make up your minds, people! That's all we ask.
Think we are beyond this rhetoric...So he celebrates both Christmas and Ramadan...good to keep everyone confused...think Mr. Obama is the one that should make up his mind. As for the people?...this November ...we will see...
mbmbos From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 124, posted (9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1449 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 123): think Mr. Obama is the one that should make up his mind. As for the people?
President Obama, not "Mr. Obama" (please show some respect for the office at least!), has made up his mind long ago and I accept his statements of belief and also think he conducts his life in ways that are consistent with Christianity.
The notion that just because you don't like the man you can question the authenticity of his religious beliefs is abhorrent and deeply disrespectful.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 125, posted (9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1427 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 113): FOX is on everywhere. Dial around AM radio and you hear right-wing rhetoric. This board is constantly quoting and citing right-wing sites. Yet, when anyone, and I mean ANYONE even thinks about quoting the only three "liberal" sources (MSNBC, salon.com, HufPo) there is hell to pay. The media is right-wing based and controlled. Don't even give me that.
Nice that you conveniently left out ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN, the other liberal news sources and the only one of the top six is conservative so this does not fit in with the other quote of
Quoting seb146 (Reply 106): because a majority of the media is controlled by right-wingers
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 126, posted (9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1417 times:
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 125): Nice that you conveniently left out ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN, the other liberal news sources and the only one of the top six is conservative so this does not fit in with the other quote of
Has it occurred to you that these are not actually liberal news sources, but balanced news sources?
It turns out that reality has a strongly liberal bias.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 103): was born in the US while it was for the most part a Judea/ Christian nation, etc, etc. And our Constitution as everyone knows was based on the aforementioned.
No it was absolutely not. There is again, that unfortunate liberal bias to reality in the Treaty with Tripoli from 1797 that was unanimously ratified by the Senate and almost unanimously ratified by the House:
Quote: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 127, posted (9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1394 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 126):
Has it occurred to you that these are not actually liberal news sources, but balanced news sources?
It turns out that reality has a strongly liberal bias.
It's all relative. While I don't consider any of the major American news networks to be neutral, most are not inherently "liberal" or "conservative", but rather will publish the stories that bring in the most ratings. And lately, politics has dominated everything.
Of course, MSNBC and FOX news are nothing more than mouthpieces for the Democratic and Republican parties, respectively. Other than that, it's just a bunch of trash designed to get ratings. Very few stories are original, most are pulled from either the AP/Reuters wire or blogs.
People continually mistake a person's background for their motives. While Christianity was a large part of people's lives back in the day, the Constitution was probably the most secular legal document of its kind since the Magna Carta.
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 128, posted (9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1364 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 115): I rest my case...then moderates here such as yourself in the best interest of all Muslims should make an attempt to quell misconceptions if they in fact do exist. This has not happened.
By and large these have been ignored by mainstream media. Your question could be rephrased, why is the media ignoring what the majority of Muslims are saying?
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 120): If he were a christian then why does he celebrate Ramadan.
As pointed out above, the President has also celebrated Christian, Jewish and Hindu festivals. So, if by your suggestion, celebrating Ramadan makes him a Muslim then he is the US's first Hindu-Judeo-Christian-Muslim resident of the Whitehouse. But of course, he could simply be a President that wishes to recognise and embrace the diversity that is America and respect the beliefs of all Americans. Aren't diversity, tolerance and respect attributes that make America stronger?
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 14 Reply 129, posted (9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1351 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 126): Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Art 11. is a dog with no teeth. I really don't see its relevance to anything discussed here.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 128): Aren't diversity, tolerance and respect attributes that make America stronger?
Yes they are. I stated that earlier. Religion aside , Mr. Obama has not delivered in his first term. While he did inherit a train wreck from the Busch Administration...at this juncture, the current mess is his own. I just hope he is replaced during this election and he can take Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Joe Biden and Eric holder along with him.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9835 posts, RR: 17 Reply 130, posted (9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1350 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 123): think Mr. Obama is the one that should make up his mind.
PRESIDENT Obama should make up his mind about a private matter that means ABSOLUTLY NOTHING per the Constitution of the United States of America? Why does it matter if he practices Islam or Christianity? Where in the Constitution of the United States of America does it say a president MUST be Christian?
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 128): Various Muslim organisations, both in the US and elsewhere, have published condemnations of terrorism. Just one of many links to Muslim condemnations of terrorism:
Good luck getting that on FOX or any AM radio talk show...
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 129): I really don't see its relevance to anything discussed here.
Because the United States is not a Christian nation. As much as the right would love to legislate what we do in private.
Stick your fingers in your ears all you want, but it exists, it was ratified unanimously, and it completely and utterly destroys any argument that the US is a nation founded on Christian ideals.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 132, posted (9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1329 times:
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 129):
Art 11. is a dog with no teeth. I really don't see its relevance to anything discussed here.
It is relevant to any revisionist (revisionism is by definition lying) that claims that this government was founded on Christian principles. It was not.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 129): Yes they are. I stated that earlier. Religion aside , Mr. Obama has not delivered in his first term. While he did inherit a train wreck from the Busch Administration...at this juncture, the current mess is his own.
No, again, I really try to stay objective because I am not a partisan. I actually am not. But it is very obviously the GOP congress that has blocked anything.
The GOP has very obviously done everything possible to hijack the economy and make it fail. They SAID that they were going to do this right at the beginning of their 2010 Congressional session. Then they have managed to blame it on Obama because the President is always the most visible. The idea that you have a GOP that says that they would not accept $1 in tax increases on the upper classes in exchange for $10 in spending cuts proves that they are not out to negotiate, but out to obstruct the system.
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