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Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2932 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

What the heck is happening in the US ??

3 mass shootings in 1 month   and yet I bet, because of the up coming elections, US politician's will remain mute, on any discussions/debate regarding gun control. Perhaps this is because they don't want to upset the apple cart (NRA)

I just don't get it, I'm sorry.

After reading all the threads on gun ownership in the US, and the endless discussion about the "constitution" with the right to bare arms, it certainly appears that things are only going from bad to worse.

So why do so many of our American friends, want to continue with the status quo ???   

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10826790

And

http://www.smh.com.au/world/three-de...-us-university-20120814-245bf.html


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20243 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

"If only there'd been more armed people there..."

Oh wait, there were.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5798 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
3 mass shootings in 1 month

Three mass shootings where?

This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a constable serving an eviction notice - and the person being served the warrant reacted by shooting the officer. Afterwards, the shooter and other police officers exchanged a lot of shots, resulting in the death of one bystander and injuries to at least one other civilian and a couple police officers.


Yes, we do have a lot of shootings in the US.


On Jul 24 in Dallas we had a police officer who shot and killed an unarmed suspect who was attacking him

On Jul 23 in Dallas a man with permit to carry a concealed handgun accidentally fired the gun in a Walmart store, injuring one person with chips from the broken floor concrete flying into the air.

Also in the past couple weeks in Dallas, a 14 year old girl was shot in her bed in her home by 'friends' who had become upset over posts on Facebook, and confronted the girl at her home. After being ordered to leave by adults, the young girls returned in the early morning hours and fired several shots at the house, hitting the girl with whom they were having the argument.

We also had two murders over the past three days in the Dallas area where the weapon used was a knife.

No I don't have an answer on how to lessen the carnage. But when we have people who have passed training courses, and passed background investigations accidentally discharging guns in crowded stores - such gun control measures are not the final answer.

Nothing is going to solve people being stupid.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8171 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5778 times:

FYI - the situation in the United Kingdom (pop 62.6m).

The number of homicides per year committed with firearms is about 50 per year (highest on record in the last decade is 97). Two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales between 1998 and 2006. Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5761 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
So why do so many of our American friends, want to continue with the status quo ???

I think the majority of Americans would not like to continue status quo. But guaranteed there is no way to get all the guns back that are distributed all over the US, and if they are out there in the wrong hands, then people who own guns legally will want to keep theirs for protection if required.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 3):
Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.

So are the other 94% beaten to death with a stale crumpet?  


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3286 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5746 times:

The United States is simply going insane, in my opinion.

A good friend works for a major bank here. He was servicing a bank ATM located in a rough section of Washington, DC yesterday. A young woman with a baby in a baby carrier was using the tandem ATM to the one he was fixing. She walked away from the ATM, leaving the baby there. My friend yelled to the woman "Hey, you forgot your baby!" and the woman took off running. Police are still looking for her. The baby is with Child Protective Services.

And my friend's company van was broken into while he was interviewed by the cops - the sliding door was crow-barred open and some of his work tools were stolen. While the cops were half a block away!!! Insanity reigns.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinedanielmyatt From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5729 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 4):
So are the other 94% beaten to death with a stale crumpet?  

Silly person, stale crumpets go soft not hard, don't you know anything?  
Now a frozen steak and kidney puddingon the other hand!


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6159 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5692 times:
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Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 5):
The United States is simply going insane, in my opinion

Drugs..... I blame most of the problem on the huge number of junkies.

Day after day there are murders in Detroit and nearly all of them involve drugs in some way. I have a friend who manages a scrap yard and daily the police are there arresting thieves who are brining in stolen metal and most of them are junkies. The people next door to me were fighting and steeling on a regular basis (until they were evicted) drugs were the reason. The brawls and arrests were all about drugs. Much of the violence I have seen at my job is related to drugs. Since I have been teaching I have lost 20 former students(maybe more that I don't know of) to drugs and drug violence.

I was washing my car at a car wash up the street from my house one and three teens jumped out of a van and started running at me, or so I thought. One had a baseball bat and one had a golf club. I jumped into my car but when I saw them run past me I knew they weren't coming after me so I continued to wash my car. They ran up to another teenager and asked "where my money" He said he didn't have it and the other said "Then give me my shit". The guy said he didn't have that either. They proceeded to beat him and when he was on the ground he pulled out a wad of money. The one guy counted the money and said "don't let this happen again". They walked away and one of the guys said to me "Just Business". That was drug related violence and is everywhere. If you get rid of the drugs the junkies go away and a lot of our problems will go away.



Drugs and a huge problem and the cycle has gone on long enough that people just have created more junkies.

I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):
Three mass shootings where?

This wasn't a mass shooting.

No it wasn't and it only got national attention because it was close to a big name college campus. Back when I was doing post grad stuff at the University of Detroit a drug dealer (or so the police said) was shot right in front of the campus and his car crashed through a store. That didn't even make the Newspaper

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
"If only there'd been more armed people there..."

Only if there were less degenerates who were armed. I have 40 guns and between my friends and I we probably have well over 200. None of us feels the need to shoot, rob, steal, etc. So it isn't the gun it is the worthless derelict that holds it.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 4):
But guaranteed there is no way to get all the guns back that are distributed all over the US

When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 3):
Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.

That statistic shows that those that want to murder still do. I would say that those that kill without a gun are more twisted than those who do. Without a gun you usually have to get right next to a person to kill them.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20243 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

I'm sorry, but drugs don't fire weapons. The guns are the problem.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Only if there were less degenerates who were armed.

So you DO support stricter gun regulation?


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

I hope this isn't the case, but this makes it sound like you support the murder of police officers when they are posing no threat to anyone's life.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I'm sorry, but drugs don't fire weapons. The guns are the problem.

Do you expect cartels to be showing up to the police station turning in their guns when the anti-gun law passes? Or are they going to use their rather considerable resources to ensure that they remain armed to the teeth no matter what the law says?

And by the way, when was the last time two bar or quickie mart owners decided to shoot at each other over alcohol sales the way bootleggers did?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5620 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems. Legalizing drugs won't stop the problems they create. At least we could probably benefit from taxing them but it won't solve a thing.

The problem isn't guns or drugs it's the idiots that have no business functioning in society that can get their hands on them.

I'm with the "if guns kill people, then pencils fail tests and spoons make you fat" crowd.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5568 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems. Legalizing drugs won't stop the problems they create.

You don't see people shooting or stabbing other people because of difficulties involved in getting alcohol. You did back in the prohibition era.

Legalizing drugs won't stop all of the problems they create, and there is the question of where you stop (i.e. if you think marijuana should be legal, what about cocaine or amphetamines?), but it would reduce drug-related gun violence.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10256 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5556 times:
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Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Drugs..... I blame most of the problem on the huge number of junkies.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Drugs and a huge problem and the cycle has gone on long enough that people just have created more junkies.

I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

A drug is no more the cause of a crime than a gun is. The person wielding it (the drug or the gun) is the problem.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

People being out of their minds is the problem. The legalization of drugs would only create more people walking and driving around in impaired states of mind. Those people, like drunks, are more likely to commit crimes and in general are a drain on society. They often can't or don't work and drain precious medical resources. If anything, we need harsher treatment of drug dealers and smugglers. Perhaps we could take a page from Middle Eastern or Asian countries in that regard.


User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
After reading all the threads on gun ownership in the US, and the endless discussion about the "constitution" with the right to bare arms, it certainly appears that things are only going from bad to worse.

Dear Mr. Commodore;

I notice you have the word "constitution" in quotation marks; I sincerely hope you mean no disrespect towards our Constitution ?
Also I might point out, animals "bare" their teeth and people "bare" their "butts" (occasionally), but they "bear their arms".

As for things going from "bad to worse", I believe you may have that "backwards"! I have good reason to believe that if you watch carefully, you will likely see things start going from "terrible" to "much better" (in the very near future)

One thing that has always perplexed me.............it seems that many people in other countries are in strong disagreement with some of our laws; the thing that I have such difficulty understanding is, if everyone thinks the U.S. is such a terrible place to live, what with our obvious high crime rate and all, I simply don't understand why so many hundreds of thousands of people from all of these wonderful countries keep sneaking into OUR country illegally each year ?

In case you were wondering why we have such a high crime rate, that's very easy to explain ! We have an AWFULL lot of criminals ! And as I'm sure you are aware, criminals DO commit an awful lot of crimes ! As a matter of fact, I would be willing to wager, they commit 100% of all the crimes in the U.S !

If you'd like, (and if you're wondering WHY we have so many criminals, I would be most happy to point out a few dozen excellent books which explain it quite well. ) ( Please let me know )

Rgds;

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5470 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
If you get rid of the drugs the junkies go away and a lot of our problems will go away.

Drugs will never go away, it's failed legalisation of drugs that's the problem.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

completely agree, make drugs legal, tax it, make them cheap, rather like prostitution, make drugs easy to get and safe to use then the criminal element won't be able to control distribution.


User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5463 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):

completely agree, make drugs legal, tax it, make them cheap, rather like prostitution, make drugs easy to get and safe to use then the criminal element won't be able to control distribution.

I don't think most drugs will ever be 'safe to use'. Alcohol, which most of us enjoy regularly, can become dangerous quickly. People can't even use many prescription drugs responsibly. I agree that legalization may start to reduce criminal enterprises involved in the sale and distribution of drugs. I contend that that is only a symptom of the greater problem. The problem with legalization of drugs is that more people will be high or stoned and that has a real effect on our economy and scarce governmental resources. It also does nothing for the battered wife or child, person killed by an impaired driver or citizenry paying for a junkie to sit home and collect welfare. As evidenced by senseless crimes you see on the news, we need less people leaving touch with the realities of life, not more.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5454 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):

This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a constable serving an eviction notice - and the person being served the warrant reacted by shooting the officer. Afterwards, the shooter and other police officers exchanged a lot of shots, resulting in the death of one bystander and injuries to at least one other civilian and a couple police officers.

Had something in Germany a few months ago. A guy with a hunting licence (which he shouldn´t have had at this time anymore, the authorities were sleeping) and therefore guns, opened fire on a bailiff´s party who came to evict him and his girlfriend from their house for not paying the mortgage. The bailiff, a locksmith and somwe other workers got killed. This guy simply wanted to stick it to the "man" and blamed everybody else for losing their home.

Unfortunately I have to say that acts like the lunatic in the cinema attract a lot of copycats, especially if the culprit is seen to have died a "glorious" death. After the cColumbine shooting there were a few incidents the world over, where suicidical teenagers wanted to copy the event and get their famous 15 minutes on the news. Weapons used were not only guns (where the teenagers or early twenties guys (and some girls) could get them, but anything ranging from knives to homebuilt bombs).

Jan


User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5446 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
I'm with the "if guns kill people, then pencils fail tests and spoons make you fat" crowd.

Futureuapilot...........thanks for reading my thread ! (But spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat, not "you" )

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
A drug is no more the cause of a crime than a gun is. The person wielding it (the drug or the gun) is the problem.

Your statement is correct, but it doesn't answer the REAL question..............WHY do we have so damned many knife-weilding,
drunken, doped up, irresponsible, lazy, no good people in our country in the first place ? That's the real question; and like all questions, there's an answer; Obviously, no one is going to put an end to something that has been getting worse and worse for the past 67 years, overnight;

Let me put it this way; I was 13 years old when WW 2 ended; "things" weren't like they are now in 1945; but they DID start going down hill soon after that...........and they have continued to go further and further down hill ever since; and it's certainly no mystery WHY all of this has happened, and is STILL happening; in the 40's and early 50's, most people had never even heard of "pot", or "coke"; there have always been heroin addicts around, but the "supply" was rather minuscule, and you only saw it in big cities; Something else that was much different back then............illegitimacy was about 10% of what it is now;

Ask yourself this question; Let's say you live in a city where 90% of kids live in single parent households; and let's say, 60% of those single mothers is a crack-addict, or an alcoholic, has no job, no outlook for ever getting a job, and is just an all around piss poor parent ! Here's the question............do you suppose the likelihood of children growing up under those circumstances is likely to produce a bumper crop of first rate, gainfully employed "citizens ?.....) IF they "grow up"......( because many of them die long before they even reach voting age ! Oh. and the ones that DO reach voting age.........who do suppose they will vote for ? That's easy to answer..........who ever GIVES them the MOST !

Do you really think anyone who has had free this, free that all their life is suddenly going to run out and look for a job loading 100 lb sacks of cement on flat bed trucks all day, when they can sit on their ass, collect, collect, and just keep on getting "free stuff" ?

Hey Falstaff.........ever see anything like I'm talking about in the motor city ! Guess what........ever hear of "Chicago" ? It's the next Detroit ! And it's well on it's way right now !

I think someone mention they have 680 (or so ) murders per year in the U.K. ? Chicage has that many on some weekends !

Now.........I'm getting tired of typing, so I'll sit back while everyone tells us why it's "all George Bush's fault"

You know, there are REASONS for everything; if you drop a basket ball on a hill, which way is it going to roll ? (for anyone saying "up", you just flunked out !)

Drugs.......everyone thinks drugs is the big problem; look a little deeper..........drugs is just the inevitable "effect"! Same with "booze".........the deeper question is........why do so many people insist on doing drugs, and drinking themselves to death ?

What's the point really, of even discussing all of these problems if no one is willing to hear the answer ?

I'm sure you may think I'm going to say it's all Obama fault; put it like this........he hasn't made it get any better; but the main problems started before he was even born ! So we can't blame everything of him.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 14):
People being out of their minds is the problem. The legalization of drugs would only create more people walking and driving around in impaired states of mind. Those people, like drunks, are more likely to commit crimes and in general are a drain on society. They often can't or don't work and drain precious medical resources. If anything, we need harsher treatment of drug dealers and smugglers. Perhaps we could take a page from Middle Eastern or Asian countries in that regard.

The above reply comes closer to explaining the problem than any yet..............

I gotta go to bed now.........

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5432 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 19):
in the 40's and early 50's, most people had never even heard of "pot", or "coke"; there have always been heroin addicts around, but the "supply" was rather minuscule, and you only saw it in big cities; Something else that was much different back then............illegitimacy was about 10% of what it is now;

Actually pot and opiates were used long before (there exists a famous cartoon series from the 1830s by a German artist named Wilhelm Busch about two boys trying granddad´s pipe and from the halucinations they are getting the content of the pipe definitely wasn´t tobacco). Heroin was sold in the late 19th century as cough drug made by Bayer. Cocaine was an ingredient of the original Coke recepy. And I know American songs from the very early 20th century describing a cocaine habit.
Pot (and harder drugs) were quite common among jazz musicians from the 1920s on (Billie Holiday and Charlie "Bird" Parker died of drug abuse, Mezz Mezzrow spent some time in prison during the late 1940s for using and selling pot, joints were known as "reefers" back then).
I think, like the American prohibition of the 1920s made the Italian Mafia strong, the puritan American anti-durg policies from the 1950s on made new gangs powerful and rich.

Jan


User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5427 times:
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Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

So you are totally safe with your guns but you are willing to shoot government workers because you disagree with them.

DING DING DING! PROBLEM RIGHT HERE!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Do you expect cartels to be showing up to the police station turning in their guns when the anti-gun law passes? Or are they going to use their rather considerable resources to ensure that they remain armed to the teeth no matter what the law says?

Would that be the Duane reade Cartel? I think you misunderstand.

Fred


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
Had something in Germany a few months ago. A guy with a hunting licence (which he shouldn´t have had at this time anymore, the authorities were sleeping) and therefore guns, opened fire on a bailiff´s party who came to evict him and his girlfriend from their house for not paying the mortgage. The bailiff, a locksmith and somwe other workers got killed. This guy simply wanted to stick it to the "man" and blamed everybody else for losing their home.

He killed the new buyer of the house as well.
The killer had his Germsn hunting licence revoked and had to get rid of the guns he had under the German licence, but nobody knew that he also had a hunting licence in a neighbouring country (IIRC Belgium) and had guns there as well. So he simply brought those guns across the border (where they would now be illegal in Germany).

Jan


User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.
Taking drugs only harms the person who takes them. Nobody makes anybody go and shoot and kill a guy for drugs. Nobody forces them to rob people for their habit - it's their own doing and while unfortunately it ends up making victims out of it, the physical act of smoking a joint or injecting yourself is a crime that only harms yourself.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
So he simply brought those guns across the border (where they would now be illegal in Germany).

Which is part of the reason gun control will never work in the US unless it's a federal effort geared for long-term results.

It's also part of the reason gun control doesn't work in Mexico, because guns are cheap and readily available across the border.

Regulating a legal market when there's an ample and cheap black market will never work.


25 MD11Engineer : I´ve read that there are about a million registered and legal firearms in private hands in Germany (with a population of 60 million). But there are e
26 Post contains images PPVRA : Yeah, because keeping drugs illegal NEVER causes any problems. As we know, alcohol causes much more crime - especially murder - than drugs because it
27 something : 43% of Americans believe that global warming is an intricate system of lies. 70% of adult Americans believe in ghosts. 41% of Americans reject the the
28 KiwiRob : If the drugs are manufactured by reputable pharmaceutical companies they will be safer than the crap cooked up in the jungle, then cut with god only
29 windy95 : Correct The ones on the books already do not work. What would more do? Yes more legal Alcohol and drug users running around the streets is what is re
30 wingman : It' such a daft debate, kind of like balancing the budget. People are the same everywhere. The Chinese and Japanese and Spanish are just as bat shit c
31 PHX787 : Lets not blame the gun, but the people carrying the gun. You can't control guns simply based off the shootings, but we can control who has access to
32 Post contains images windy95 : How many drunk driving death's do we have every year? No one ban's the alcohol or tries to blame GM for putting that care in the hand's of an alcohol
33 falstaff : That isn't murder... When you have armed men going house to house and taking firearms that are legally owned by the citizens it is an act of war. You
34 vikkyvik : There are plenty of people who don't know how to be responsible with alcohol/drugs. Same as with guns. Taking the drug (marijuana in the case of the
35 daedaeg : What happened at Texas A&M was not a mass shooting. Unfortunately people get killed by the hands of guns everyday in the U.S. and this was just on
36 falstaff : and only because it is a big name school. Like I said, a guy was murdered (drug business related) in front of the University of Detroit and it wasn't
37 casinterest : I'd love for our worldy critics to explain how without law changes the violent crime index rate has dropped by over 100% in the US. These mass reporti
38 falstaff : Keep in mind that the NRA is funded by millions of law abiding citizens, like me. People always talk about the NRA like it is some monolithic lobbyis
39 something : My point exactly.
40 n229nw : Sounds very damning (and it is), but people are just as dumb everywhere else. They just believe slightly different illogical things. Belief in astrol
41 something : Oh my friend, you are of course absolutely right about that. I didn't mean to suggest that ''Americans are stupider than other nations, therefore, th
42 futureualpilot : Did I say anything about keeping them illegal? I really don't care what we do with them, legal or otherwise if you're dumb enough to harm your body w
43 Post contains links DocLightning : So, from the shooter's facebook page: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...l-texas-am-shooting_n_1774282.html And: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/201
44 PPVRA : You effectively call them stupid, then you make a stupid mistake yourself. Nobody is saying there isn't a correlation between the prevelance of guns
45 PPVRA : So you do want rough men to do violence on your behalf?
46 treebeard787 : I have to say I agree with you on this point, if they start taking away our rights to legally own firearms or our rights to free speech, where does i
47 falstaff : "Academic Elite"??? what does that really mean? People in what fields of academia? I have several friends with Doctoral degrees, two in chemistry, on
48 DocLightning : Bingo. You can kill me with a gun. I can't kill you with my marriage. Your 40 guns are a threat to my safety if you have a psychotic break. And given
49 treebeard787 : @DocLightning...Somebody could kill you or others with a steak knife too...does that mean we need to ban those too? Just because somebody owns a firea
50 PPVRA : I have no problem with a society violently restraining a violent man. But the threat made above was one made in defense of his rights, not as an aggr
51 windy95 : Sorry but he nailed it. You talk about equality and rights and equal protection but only when it goes for what you stand for. We can keep our guns an
52 vikkyvik : Wait, I thought this was a gun control thread, not a "Doc's preferences" thread..... Everyone prioritizes things. It's human nature. Believing one ri
53 Aaron747 : Clearly it is a cultural problem. There is some undertone in American society that leads many people to believe the best way to resolutely solve a di
54 Post contains links NWAdeicer : These things don't happen in some other cultures because for individuals, committing crimes and bringing harm to others permanently shames you, your p
55 Post contains images DocLightning : A steak knife has a use other than killing. A gun has only one primary use; killing. And 40 guns have one primary use: killing. Good, I'll quote you
56 LTBEWR : In the USA a literally volatile mix of intentionally weak gun laws, weak mental health care access, strong rights to deny mental health treatment and
57 DocLightning : You forgot the dangerous mix of religion and patriotism preaching violence in the name of God and Country.
58 falstaff : I think the right of all people being able to vote is more important than owning guns. I have only missed one election since I was old enough to vote
59 comorin : I think if we banned all single, middle-aged white people with middle names these mass shootings would end. Even the baddest drug lord from the ghetto
60 cws818 : Well, those sneaking across the southern border from Mexico and Central America are not the ones who criticize American gun laws/culture.... Fine, bu
61 casinterest : You forget Columbine was done by teenagers. The shooting in Aurora was done by a 24 year old. . Hardly middle aged. The crime rate is going down, as
62 comorin : Fair enough - I stand corrected.
63 rara : I think you're answering your own question there.
64 mham001 : Getting it is one thing, what you do while you are on it is conspicuously absent in your argument. Approximately 75,000 die in the US every year from
65 Post contains links travelin man : Crime Rate in US Lowest Since 1963: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now Just thought I'd throw this out there...
66 globeex : There is in fact a heavy correlation. HOWEVER, it doesn't really have anything to do with the race per se. Unlike 30 years ago, we now know that inte
67 falstaff : My degrees in a technical field gave me job skills that are in demand. I can't tell you how many people I have run into who are waiting tables or ten
68 Post contains images AirframeAS : So, in the Olympics, the rifle competition is "killing" as you put it?? Really?! Seriously?! Gawd, I had no idea that the rifle competitors were murd
69 rfields5421 : And News Media blowing every single incident into a huge national tragedy at the highest rate in US history.
70 daedaeg : Exactly, people seem to forget that gun violence in the 70's, 80's and 90's was far worse. The U.S. has always been a fairly violent country. This is
71 rara : If that's how you draw conclusions, then perhaps you're very good in the field of technology, but in not much else. I'm not saying that's the case, b
72 falstaff : I get tired of seeing people with no skills, but college degrees, complaining they can't find a job. I get tired politicians saying that students nee
73 Ken777 : We have a right to guns in the Second Amendment, We also have the NRA who will pounce on any effort to moderate what is available. That means that ass
74 DocLightning : No, it is using a weapon for killing for target practice. The primary function of a rifle is to kill. Just like a sword. The fact that you are having
75 AirframeAS : So, using your logic, Olympic competitors are competing and winning medals to kill later? Wow.
76 Post contains images rara : I know two people with a degree in philosophy, and they both have steady jobs. Does that disprove your argument? Obviously we'd need proper data, whi
77 Post contains images AirframeAS : You're right. I didn't, as it was not a required part of my aviation degree.
78 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Not really. But I do find talk about, never being able to change/alter said document, rather perplexing. Nothing stays the same forever, so therefore
79 PPVRA : The problem with "guns = killing = illegitimate, therefore guns = illegitimate" is that not all killing is illegitimate. Self-defense comes to mind.
80 zippyjet : A lot of citizens believe that the 2nd. Ammendment of our constitution allows them to gun ownership and usage. Actually, if you want to split hairs w
81 cws818 : Using an example that is relevant once every four years does not advance your point. Guns have an inherent lethal potential and effect.
82 MD11Engineer : As I have stated before, gun ownership should be available, but only for qualified people. This means not just a background check (to be repeated e.g.
83 falstaff : Made up of people like me. The second amendment has nothing to do hunting. You wouldn't use an assault weapon to hunt dear anyway, the rounds are too
84 Post contains links Ken777 : I'm not against membership, or a lot of work the NRA does in the areas of safety, etc. The NRA does take a hard like whenever we have major shootings
85 Post contains images windy95 : Nice try but these are semi-automatic versions. You could not legally import the full auto version.
86 globeex : That's a relieve, since a bullet from a semi-automatic weapon can't kill somebody.
87 AirframeAS : What do you mean by this? I fail to understand you here. Are you saying that the NRA is supporting all these shootings that has happened as of late?
88 Mir : But, by virtue of screaming bloody murder every time even relatively benign gun control bills (getting rid of the gun show loophole, for instance) co
89 TheCommodore : Nice try yourself Do you really have to split hairs ? Whatever your opinion, The US is now the biggest market for these Russian killing machines...si
90 Post contains images AirframeAS : I fail to see how that relates to what I just said.... I'm not talking about bills being passed that the NRA is against. I'm talking about the NRA no
91 Mir : They don't support them, but they do view their actions as acceptable. -Mir
92 AirframeAS : Source?
93 luv2fly : It is unfortunate that we have these shootings in the first place, though I don't see it ever changing. The NRA is to powerful.
94 Post contains links TheCommodore : This looks like it could be a source, partially at least. http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/26/opinion/etzioni-guns/index.html
95 Ken777 : This is a pretty good answer: When the Fast & Furious uproar was at full speed there was an article about 800+ gun dealers in Phoenix. One legal
96 Post contains images Mir : They'll never say they accept the fact that there are shootings, of course. But just look at their actions after a shooting. They put out the "millio
97 Pyrex : There are two fundamental rights without which freedom cannot exist - freedom of speech and property rights. To protect freedom of speech, the First A
98 MD11Engineer : I see this whole discussion not based on reason anymore, but on ideology: On one hand you´ll have the "ban every gun in civilian hands, everybody who
99 cmf : Talk about twisting things. I don't think this is representative of how most people look at it. I have not seen many people advocating removing every
100 Mir : Actually, the Second Amendment itself is very clear on why it was created: it was for the purpose of a well-regulated militia. -Mir
101 windy95 : There is no splitting hairs. You stated that they are "machine guns" which they are not. And yes they are an amazing weapon. Every home should have o
102 Post contains images globeex : And they are fun to play with as well The sad thing is that this isn't sarcasm.
103 MD11Engineer : Yes, they are. At paper targets. BTW, the one you are showing did not come from Izmash in Russia, but from former Yugoslavia. I think there is a bit
104 Post contains links globeex : like that?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC6SYfmIfe4 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFfqNCblmxo&feature=fvwrel (looking really responsible w
105 Mir : I agree with much of what you said, but I've got to object here. If one wants gun owners to be proficient in the use of their weapons (and I do), the
106 Pyrex : "People should not be afraid of their government, government should be afraid of their people." - Thomas Jefferson You can say argue that the Second
107 Rara : There you go with your paper targets again. Hey, I know where you're coming from and you're totally right. But you're missing the point. Read this th
108 Post contains images globeex : Or they are heavy users of that kind:
109 mham001 : Yes, we split hairs because the difference is stark. It is really quite easy to spot gun critics who have literally no idea what they are talking abo
110 globeex : So what is the point then in buying a Kalash?
111 mham001 : The vast majority of guns are bought by hobbyists. The Ak has an incredible history but was not always available here for purchase. It also has a goo
112 globeex : See, and that the issue. Guns are neither a toy nor a fashion object. It's not a god damn ipod. It's an object built in order to kill not to show off
113 Post contains links and images falstaff : [ read my entire statement before you misquote me. I said it wasn't legal, but if you did have one that was here before 1968, with documentation it w
114 Mir : They wouldn't be that stupid. It's what they don't say that's telling. No I'm not. I was only talking about the rationale behind the Second Amendment
115 mham001 : That is your opinion. The definition of a toy can be very different to other people. Many feel the same way about other things, such as cars. To most
116 MD11Engineer : You don´t get me, no? I like to shoot at paper targets and I like to be good at it. I´m also interested in historical military weapons (Alllied sid
117 windy95 : The accessories and bling make for better use of the weapon. Not to show off. Where do these stats come from? Somebody killing themselves while showi
118 globeex : If you exchange "Nazis" with "extreme right" + religious fanatics you have the groups of people that are buying the most guns in the US.
119 MD11Engineer : Well, with me you have somebody who has voted for the social democrats during most elections in the past (and on some occasion the Greens and the FDP
120 Post contains links globeex : http://www.newscientist.com/article/...sk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/20.../04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/ or
121 ManuCH : Which leads to an interesting question: does the US have a democratic possibility to alter the constitution, if 50%+1 of the population wanted it? In
122 mham001 : Source please. Yes. The initiative process has been wreaking havoc on the State of California for several decades now. Gridlock is much more preferab
123 globeex : 1) In the US 25.9% of Liberals own a gun, while 40.0% of conservatives own a gun. 2) 68% of protestant (that tend to be more fundamentalist than its
124 MD11Engineer : You can argue that in Germany rightwings and neo-Nazis tend to volunteer for the military (probably due to some inbreed obedience to some authoritari
125 globeex : Yes you can argue this and it is probably right. You can also argue that people that go to the military instead of civil service are less intelligent
126 MD11Engineer : Sure, they´ll have the guns and the power, while you have the moral high ground. Typical German Prinzipienscheisserei. And the less intelligent guys
127 globeex : No, maybe im just rational enough (and don't have so much paranoia) to think that is more likely to become a victim of a rising of a second Nazi part
128 cmf : As I said above I'm with you in theory but I don't see how it can practically be implemented. What do you do when a kid is accidentally injured or ki
129 Post contains images globeex : Same as involuntary homicide or other negligent acts. The first question should however be... how did the kid get it's hands on the gun when it shoul
130 Mir : Well this is one area where I fully support ramming it down their throats no matter what they say. Forget selling two or more guns in 5 days, there s
131 globeex : Two guns only make half the profit...
132 cmf : I'm saying that when comparing the potential benefits of carrying a gun for self defense with the chances of negatives everything is pointing to that
133 Mir : The ability to make a profit is not affected by filling out and submitting a form that says "I sold a gun of model A, serial number B to person C who
134 AirframeAS : Gun sales records are destroyed after 30 days from the sale date per Federal Law, I believe.
135 Mir : Then the law should be changed. These things need to be kept track of. Guns don't start out being illegal, yet somehow many of them get that way. If
136 Post contains images zippyjet : Government tries to get into our personal business and track almost everything else we say, do, breathe. Where's pompous asses like Nanny Bloomberg o
137 Mir : He's been pushing it. NYC has a problem with criminals coming over from other states with guns that they purchased there from private sellers, who ne
138 Post contains images TheCommodore : Most surely they do, and each and every owner from the first. This is so basic, I find it hard to believe that its not already tracked. The only reas
139 HercPPMX : A firearm (gun) in itself does not kill people. It's a man made machine that is incapable of emotion, incapable of decision making. In itself it is a
140 Rara : Ah okay, that makes it alright then. Phew. Yes, I may have one too if I lived there. I would also own a gun if I lived in South Sudan, and possibly I
141 MD11Engineer : Remember, I grew up in West Berlin during the 1980s (Kreuzberg Hausbesetzungen) and knew many of these guys personally. First, they have absolutely n
142 cmf : Thank the gun lobby. People without guns do not shoot people. Now with guns, not without. Question is where we have least problems. They are. Almost
143 falstaff : I would believe that; a couple of leftist friends of mine own guns. Once I was at a bar in San Francisco and I was sitting next to a liberal vegan wo
144 PPVRA : Reply #44 applies to you, too.
145 PPVRA : I live in the US, in the South for that matter, and I do not live in fear of somebody shooting me at all. . . and no, I don't do anything special. Yo
146 mham001 : So, I'll ask again, what source do you have that "right wing extremists" and "religious fanatics" buy "most" guns? Does being Protestant equate to re
147 PPVRA : Highly disagree. The first thing dictators like to do is to disarm the populace. They are gonna have a tough time doing that in the USA! The Nazis li
148 SA7700 : This thread has run its course and will be locked for further contributions. Please note that any posts added after the thread lock, will be removed f
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