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Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador  
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 644 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

Not sure how to feel about this... Assange, wanted for questioning in Sweden over rape allegations has been granted asylum in Ecuador after living in the embassy in London for 2 months. The UK has made Ecuador aware of a law that would allow it to go in and arrest Assange anyway, essentially by closing the embassy so it becomes British land and entering the premises. The justification for this is the fact that he's broken his bail, and is due for extradition to Sweden.

While I'm "in favor" of Wikileaks, or at least what they're trying to do, I have serious problems with Assange's conduct. His argument simply does not hold up. He doesn't want to be extradited to Sweden in case he is then extradited to the US to face trial there, over Wikileaks, and possibly receive the death penalty.

However, extradition between the UK and the US is much easier than between Sweden and the US, and Assange has been on house arrest in the UK for 2 years - if the USA wanted him so badly, why not charge him during that time? He could have been on trial in the US already if that's what they wanted. I've heard the argument made that the US is trying to keep this secret and charging him would "blow their cover", but their "cover" would be blown regardless of *when* they charged him, whether now or when he's in Sweden.

Plus, the death penalty is illegal under EU law, and it's also illegal for any EU member state to extradite someone for a crime which they face the death penalty for, so Assange's worry of being executed is baseless. If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

Which begs the question - what is he scared of? He's either really, really paranoid (and stupid) or he knows he's guilty of the crime he's wanted for in Sweden.

Also, asylum in Ecuador? Really? That free-press loving country?

What does everyone else think of this?


Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
205 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

User currently onlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

The minute he steps out of the Ecuadorian Embassy he will be subject to arrest and extradition. I'm not sure how long the Ecuadorians want him to live in their embassy.


Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
The embassy is not Ecuadorian

Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

[Edited 2012-08-18 02:47:40 by SA7700]


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

They are not sovereign territory at all. They are still under the jurisdiction of the host country but are given privileges like diplomatic immunity from most local laws.

If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

[Edited 2012-08-17 04:47:01]

User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2077 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

I think it is incredibly hypocritical of the UK to even suggest they'd expel diplomats for something this petty when they got all up in arms over their Iranian embassy citing treaties the Iranians had broken by not protecting their embassy. The UK Foreign Service is a highly respected institution and William Hague is doing them quite some harm with this rhetoric. In particular they will instantly turn much of South America heavily against them while they're locked in another diplomatic battle over the Falklands.

As for the actual asylum, it is mutually beneficial that he's granted asylum, its just whether he feels like leaving at all in the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately for Assange the Ecuadorian embassy would be difficult to get out of unlike other more compound like ones in other countries.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

No they cannot just waltz in and arrest him and under centuries of international law, it is indeed Ecuadorian soil. The only way the UK could legally get him is if they revoke Ecuador's right to have an embassy in the UK. This is one of the most serious things two countries can do against each other short of going to war and should never be done lightly, even with one's enemies or others who's conduct you may be displeased with.

[Edited 2012-08-17 04:51:29]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2414 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

No, it will be a serious breach of international treaties. The Ecuadorians could even declare Mr. Assange a diplomatic messenger, hand him the documents he has to carry to Ecuador, and off he can co. Nobody has the powers to delay such a messenger.

When Tehran occupied the U.S. embassy there and held the hostages, they let "students" do the job. They knew how delicate it would be.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
The UK Foreign Service is a highly respected institution and William Hague is doing them quite some harm with this rhetoric. In particular they will instantly turn much of South America heavily against them while they're locked in another diplomatic battle over the Falklands.

And you think protecting him from the USA is getting them kudos on the Northern part of the American continent?

British law isn't codified and if some crafty lawyer really wanted to, he could always find a loophole special circumstance situation to circumvent EU law to extradite him to Sweden.

I must say though.. I had always held Scandinavian and Northern European countries in highest regard. Sweden has really lost all credibility with me over this.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
However, extradition between the UK and the US is much easier than between Sweden and the US, and Assange has been on house arrest in the UK for 2 years - if the USA wanted him so badly, why not charge him during that time? He could have been on trial in the US already if that's what they wanted. I've heard the argument made that the US is trying to keep this secret and charging him would "blow their cover", but their "cover" would be blown regardless of *when* they charged him, whether now or when he's in Sweden.

Plus, the death penalty is illegal under EU law, and it's also illegal for any EU member state to extradite someone for a crime which they face the death penalty for, so Assange's worry of being executed is baseless. If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

Pretty much sums up what I find strange about it.

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
Also, asylum in Ecuador? Really? That free-press loving country?

They offered  
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

How do you know they are bogus?

Quoting something (Reply 7):
I must say though.. I had always held Scandinavian and Northern European countries in highest regard. Sweden has really lost all credibility with me over this.

Why have they lost credibility for insisting to to bring him to Sweden?


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5991 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

No EU country would allow someone to extradited to a country where the death penalty is waiting. Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism. Only in very extreme cases of immiadiate danger (large-scale terrorism or genocide) I do understand that its being enforced. Certainly not for a journalistic traitor.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

The UK forces have all the right to enter if acts of criminalism have to be prevented. The Ecuadorians cannot keep him in the house forever, and they cant transport him to the airport. Assange is being wanted for sexual assault. Wether this is a set-up nobody knows. But he is accused for it and has to stand trial like everyone else. Otherwise he could do it again and use the same excuses.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2077 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5968 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
How do you know they are bogus?

Assange went to an activist conference with one who had agreed to let him stay over, he slept with her and then three days later slept with the other whom he met at the conference.
They were both boasting (via SMS that is now public) that they screwed one of the most wanted men in the world but then didn't like that he'd slept with both.
They tried to get in contact with him afterwards and one hosted a party in her house for him.
They went to the police as you're well within your rights when you regret having sex in Sweden, on the condition that you're a woman. The warrant was withdrawn the day after with a Swedish prosecutor saying 'I don't think there is reason to suspect that he has committed rape'.
The women appealed and eleven days later another prosecutor reopened the case and here we are.

Any inconsistencies in there? Do most people boast about being 'raped'?

This is a crime almost nowhere else in the world, Assange was extraordinarily stupid for going there. Being cautious to the point of paranoia about things like phones and internet, he then pisses off a pair of Swedish bureaucrats by having sex with them both in the same week and they promptly seek to destroy his life with the assistance of the Swedish government. Note to all mankind, don't have sex with avowed feminists in Sweden. Swedish Roulette anyone?

Here is a letter from a former lawyer of Assange's, biased of course but even if half true would exonerate Assange.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/02/...are-making-it-up-as-they-go-along/


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 5939 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
No they cannot just waltz in and arrest him and under centuries of international law

There is no such thing as "international law", there are treaties and there are conventions - in this case, its the Vienna Convention that describes diplomatic statuses.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
it is indeed Ecuadorian soil

No it is not. This is one of those common miss-beliefs.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
The only way the UK could legally get him is if they revoke Ecuador's right to have an embassy in the UK

That's one way, the other way is that they can temporarily revoke the embassies diplomatic status for the purposes of apprehending a criminal. This is not the same as revoking the countries right to have an embassy.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
The Ecuadorians could even declare Mr. Assange a diplomatic messenger, hand him the documents he has to carry to Ecuador, and off he can co. Nobody has the powers to delay such a messenger.

Nope, they can't do that as all diplomatic personnel that the embassy wishes to have diplomatic immunity status must be agreed with the British Government prior to entry into the country - Ecuador cannot simply "grant" immunity status on their own.

This is the common approach held by pretty much all countries - the guest country cannot simply send whomever they wish.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
When Tehran occupied the U.S. embassy there and held the hostages, they let "students" do the job. They knew how delicate it would be.

Completely different state of affairs - in this case we are talking about a country that has defined a specific set of laws which allow it entry into a guest embassy, using proper due process (a weeks notice and the ability to challenge it in court) and normal judicial approaches. In your case we are talking about an uprising in a country that had been held oppressed by a dictator put in power by the US and UK.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Any inconsistencies in there? Do most people boast about being 'raped'?

Lots of inconsistencies are claimed - unfortunately, I havent seen any corroborating evidence from Assange supporters that back up their claims of inconsistencies.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
This is a crime almost nowhere else in the world, Assange was extraordinarily stupid for going there.

Yup, its a crime almost nowhere else in the world.

Except the UK.

And France. And Germany. And the US. And New Zealand. And Australia. And pretty much most of the western world.

This was one of those "inconsistencies" covered by the British Judges in quite some depth in their rulings - one of the things they consider in extradition requests was if the allegations made are also crimes in the UK. And the Judges found that all the allegations (not just one, at least four allegations made) would be a criminal act in the UK.


Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Here is a letter from a former lawyer of Assange's, biased of course but even if half true would exonerate Assange.

You do realise that the legal team that that barrister was a part of in October 2010 was severely reprimanded by the British Judge in his ruling statement, as he found that they deliberately misstated positions, lied to the court and generally were incompetent...?

Court rulings in this matter:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/2849.pdf


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 5933 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

The UK might find that view very damaging for all of their embassys throughout the world, particularly in less friendly states.

The UK look, again, like a lap dog of the US over this unseemly acquiescence,

[Edited 2012-08-17 08:00:17]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 5916 times:
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Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

As you pointed out, he could only be extradited to the US if they agree the death penalty would not be imposed.

If they give that agreement, then, subject to meeting the criteria of the extradition treaty between Sweden and the US, he could be extradited. The only way I see the ECHR getting involved is if Assange claimed that "imprisonment without parole" (a possible punishment in the absence of the death penalty) constituted a cruel and unusual punishment under EU law (which it well might).

Quoting something (Reply 7):
And you think protecting him from the USA is getting them kudos on the Northern part of the American continent?

Who's "protecting" him from America? Has America issued an arrest warrant and applied for extradition?

Quoting something (Reply 7):
British law isn't codified and if some crafty lawyer really wanted to, he could always find a loophole special circumstance situation to circumvent EU law to extradite him to Sweden.

No, that ship has already sailed. The legal process has been exhausted and Assange lost. That's why the police are standing outside the Ecuador embassy waiting to arrest him.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

No, embassies are not extraterritorial - they remain sovereign but with special privileges as defined in the Vienna Convention. See following comment.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

No they can't - if it were as simple as you're suggesting they would have already gone in. One of the privileges granted under the Vienna Convention is that the host country may not enter the embassy without permission.

The only way the police could enter the embassy to arrest Assange is if Hague, as he's threatening, were to revoke Ecuador's diplomatic status. However, this is a very dangerous game that could undermine the whole fragile house of cards that is international diplomacy. This could easily backfire and present a serious issue to British citizens that need assistance from embassies around the World.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 5909 times:

At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

As I understand it, the country whose authorities want Mr. Assange for prosecution is Sweden; and (best I can tell) the defensive strategy as it is now is, basically, to claim that "If Julian comes out of the Ecudorian Embassy, the US will swoop in and grab him, taking him to the Great American Gulag from which he will never emerge..."

As if Sweden would remotely consider being a pawn in such a game!

Methinks you doth protest too much.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 5897 times:
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Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Well, the American government seems to be rather keen to have a cosy chat with Mr Assange about all the secrets he's been publishing on his Wikileaks site.

Assange's claim is that if extradited from UK to Sweden, he will subsequently be extradited to the US to face spying charges, for which he could possibly face the death penalty (but see previous posts about extradition from EU and death penalty).



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Any inconsistencies in there?

Seems to miss several important events.


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):

At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Assange's supporters claim that the US secretly want to charge Assange with treason and endangering US troops (like with Bradley Manning), despite no evidence supporting that view... It basically comes from a few over zealous republicans (Michelle Bachman etc) who insinuated that they would like to put him on trial in the US, and for him to face the death penalty. This was of course simply political waffle to capitalise on the outrage many right-wingers felt when wikileaks released the documents, but some decided to take her and others seriously.

So basically, it doesn't seem like the US actually is related but many seem to think otherwise and Assange seems to be using this to justify avoiding turning up in Sweden for questioning.

Quoting na (Reply 9):
Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism.

I think Gandalf sufficiently sums up my feelings on the issue:

"Many that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement; even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Obviously more JRR Tolkien than Gandalf but whatever



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5871 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Well, the American government seems to be rather keen to have a cosy chat with Mr Assange about all the secrets he's been publishing on his Wikileaks site.

Assange's claim is that if extradited from UK to Sweden, he will subsequently be extradited to the US to face spying charges, for which he could possibly face the death penalty (but see previous posts about extradition from EU and death penalty).

Exactly. What is more, sccutler, many of your GOP figures have called for his 'death' on grounds of 'treason'    They seem to be too dense or too busy chest-beating to notice that he is an Australian citizen, not a US one, so whatever he has done, it is not 'treason', nor has whatever he has done occurred on US soil, nor has it been suggested that he has stolen any information (spying), just that he provided the platform for release of said information. The US government are having a hard time using their own law (which seems not to apply) nor international law (what charge) to pursue their insensed hunger for retribution. However, as recent precedent clearly documents, the US will set aside nicities such as the law if it gets in the way of retribution (extrordinary rendition on foreign soil, torture camps on foreign soil, etc). The clear suggestion is that the US pressured Sweden to reverse the dismissal of the assault case in order to create a path of rendition from UK to the US. The suggestion has always been that if he ends up in Sweden, the US will 'get him' and do what they like, law or no law. Time will tell.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5868 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 13):
If they give that agreement, then, subject to meeting the criteria of the extradition treaty between Sweden and the US

You need to add UK in this case. That is one of the "funnies."

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

The main reason Assange was in Sweden was because he applied to become a resident. Reportedly because of Swedens whistle blower laws. Essentially he was trying to get protection in Sweden for the US documents wikileaks released.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
"Many that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement; even the very wise cannot see all ends."

  

All I can add is that those who deserve death do not deserve to have their earthly punishment shortened.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5858 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
Assange's supporters claim that the US secretly want to charge Assange with treason

Then Assange's supporters are idiots since America cannot charge Australians or any other foreigners with treason.

Either way I think that if it's Americans that he fears, Assange will be safer in Europe than Ecuador.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1229 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):

I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

Really? That would do two things:
1) Show that the UK and Iran are pretty much on the same level. Would you like that?
2) Create a precedent where the UK embassies in some less than friendly countries would be raided. Thats what happens when you open a can of worms.

The fact that your government OFFICIALS actually stated the same thing as you shows alot.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5840 times:

Quoting na (Reply 9):

No EU country would allow someone to extradited to a country where the death penalty is waiting. Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism. Only in very extreme cases of immiadiate danger (large-scale terrorism or genocide) I do understand that its being enforced. Certainly not for a journalistic traitor.

You don't rehabilitate the rabid dog, you put it down...


He posted information that could get people killed, why not kill 1; to save the herd?

[Edited 2012-08-17 09:39:02]


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5828 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
1) Show that the UK and Iran are pretty much on the same level. Would you like that?

Thats hardly the situation is it - once again, a country using established domestic law that has been around for decades to allow civilian police and judiciary to enter and apprehend a fugitive is not the same as a random mob storming an embassy for political reasons.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
2) Create a precedent where the UK embassies in some less than friendly countries would be raided. Thats what happens when you open a can of worms.

The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies, so once again its not the same situation.


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 22):
You don't rehabilitate the rabid dog, you put it down...


He posted information that could get people killed, why not kill 1; to save the herd?

He facilitated the publishing of information that we should already have known. Democracy relies on having an informed electorate. I'm not defending his hiding from the law - but the death penalty would be outrageous on the part of the US, not least because the US has no jurisdiction over him. Plus, as already said, the death penalty is illegal in all EU member states (and most civilised countries) and extradition to the US, were he to face the death penalty, would be illegal.

Comparing a rabid dog - an animal with a much lower intelligence than humans, with a disease that makes them crazy - to a person who has not technically done anything illegal (about wikileaks, not the sexual assault charges) is ludicrous, and undermines your argument rather than helping it.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1229 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
Thats hardly the situation is it - once again, a country using established domestic law that has been around for decades to allow civilian police and judiciary to enter and apprehend a fugitive is not the same as a random mob storming an embassy for political reasons.

Both show blatant disregard for the Vienna convention. One is an angry mob and the other is an official attack (based on whatever you want to call it).
I would actually say that the angry mob is the better of the two. If you can get a large enough mob, the authorities might not be able to contain it in time, however authorities going in is an official response. The country with the angry mob probably has the higher moral ground here.

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies, so once again its not the same situation.

Well the British Government is in the habit of harbouring fugitives (including terrorists) to escape local judicial proceedings but not through embassies, so you are right, it is not the same situation.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
25 bueb0g : Where do you draw the line? If Mr Assange had gone on a killing spree in London, would it be legitimate for him to then claim asylum in Ecuador and g
26 moo : And deliberately harbouring a fugitive doesn't show blatant disregard for the basic rule of law itself? If a legal construct can be used to circumven
27 GDB : For wanting to question over alleged sexual assaults? As in saying he'll wear a condom then not doing so. Sweden is a model of Liberal Democracy, to
28 GDB : At least we are not so frightened of 3 young women, that the 'judiciary' (that's a laugh in itself), gives them 2 years hard labour, where in the civ
29 tu204 : You want to actually provide some proof to back up your opinion? I can for my statement.
30 Acheron : He is wanted for interrogation by the swedes for something that happened in Sweden(right?), yet the swedes for some reason want to extradite him to th
31 Ken777 : My bet is that they wish he was gone a month ago. IIRC, the guy's problem is that he had sex again with one of the gals and didn't use a condom as sh
32 moo : Yes. No. Sweden hasn't said anything of the sort - those accusations are, right now, baseless. Nothing. However, they have a sealed indictment for As
33 scbriml : Why? I don't believe the US has sought his extradition, but the Swedes have. The legal process has been followed and the ruling is that he can be ext
34 greasespot : Sadly as coming and working in the Capital of Canada I get to deal with embassies all the time It is sovereign territory. And yes if the embassy wants
35 mbmbos : 1. Sweden has not actually charged Assange saying only that they wanted to question him. 2. Assange made several overtures to be questioned by Swedis
36 mham001 : I have searched, but I have not found any information on what he could be charged that would draw the death penalty. To anybody who has claimed such,
37 DocLightning : You are incorrect. An embassy and its grounds is foreign soil by international law and agreement between two countries with formal relations. If the
38 Aesma : He's not stupid. He's paranoid yes, for good reasons, and after years being paranoid I don't doubt you can become too paranoid. What about spies ? We
39 Dano1977 : The Ecuadorians cannot unilaterally give him diplomatic status: Were he to be given a diplomatic passport, that would not alter the situation: immunit
40 gingersnap : I think Assange is right to fear extradition to the US. The way the Swedish have acted throughout this suggests that they simply could act as nothing
41 moo : Swedish law says that they cannot charge someone in absentia. How does that help Sweden charge him? Rubbish - "wanted for questioning" and extraditio
42 Post contains links flyingturtle : http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Consular_Relations Article 31 says that consular premises shall not be entered by forces of the hos
43 cmf : You need to do a fact check. They don't. Because as part of the extradition from UK to Sweden needs UK's approval to extradite him to another country
44 mbmbos : Wow, you speak Orwellian quite fluently. Doubleplusgood! They can charge him via a warrant. By the way, the original prosecutor declined to do so and
45 cmf : How is stating that no immunity is given and any potential request will acted on based on its merits doublespeak? Trying to avoid the issue by introd
46 DocLightning : Agreed. He is well aware that --although the United States should not be (and AFAIK is not) formally involved-- we sure as hell have our unofficial f
47 BMI727 : I'm not saying that he shouldn't be taken care of, it just won't be by charging him with treason.
48 DocLightning : I wonder if that's ever been abused... I bet it has.
49 Aesma : Because they supposedly want him ? Arrangements during extradition processes are common. And why would anything concerning the US turn up during a qu
50 connies4ever : The issue about revoking a foreign nation's 'right' to have an embassy in your capital is a delicate one. If HMG treid to go ahead with that, a prece
51 Quokkas : Fairfax media has obtained under Freedom of Information laws classified documents showing that the US may still be interested in seeking Assange's ext
52 LTBEWR : This is a no-win situation for all concerned. He is still stuck in an embassy. There is no doubt that the UK government would seize him and extradite
53 connies4ever : That I think underscores my position: what Assange did was beard the tiger, but if he came into possession of US diplomatic cables etc and published
54 Acheron : Not entirely. If I remember correctly, Ecuador was trying to broke a deal where they would handle Assange over if they agreed to not deport him to th
55 scbriml : Which could hamper any potential extradition from an EU country if the ECHR decided that was a cruel and unusual punishment. A chest-beating claim of
56 Mir : They could still try to get him on espionage. -Mir
57 GDB : We might be being presumptuous here, after all, how much of this story has been aired on Putin approved channels - that is nearly all of them - if th
58 Dogbreath : This guy (and his supporters) makes me sick. What a coward. Showing his true colours by hiding behind the apron strings of the Equadorian embassy. He'
59 Post contains images RAGAZZO777 : In these cases, political (or diplomatic) refugees rarely fly on commercial airlines. He would most likely be transported to Ecuador aboard the Ecuad
60 na : He surely put people/soldiers at risk, but being in danger is a soldiers job in wartime. Also the reason behind publicising secret documents was not
61 Post contains images flyingturtle : It has, at least in a James Bond movie... Thanks to na for mentioning that sentence. It would be an even bigger problem because it would simply be un
62 bjorn14 : I seem to remember a fire( of dubious origin) in the 1980's at the US embassy in Moscow. The US told the Soviets they had it under control but they i
63 mham001 : So it seems nobody can tell us how Assange would be executed under US law. So we can put that myth to rest. Are you saying these women don't have the
64 flyingturtle : Right. You're bsolutely right. If the same thing is punishable under Swedish as under British law! But because the Swedish definition of rape is much
65 connies4ever : Quite. That would be the equivalent of being required to prove a negative. It is the prosecution's responsibility to demonstrate guilt. Unless you're
66 Post contains links Acheron : Because being falsely accused of rape and still being jailed for it, is totally unheard of, right?. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...=news/loca
67 MD11Engineer : I don´t mind the publishing of US diplomats telling that Westerwelle (our foreign minister) is a stupid tw@t and that Seehofer, the leader of the Ba
68 cmf : The suggestion that this is a CIA setup is pretty much conspiracy theory territory. Why would they make it this difficult? Is he a horny idiot, possi
69 rutankrd : This man needs to answer the assault allegations and as such should present himself to the UK authorities for removal to fellow European Court member
70 Post contains links flyingturtle : You're saying that prosecutors are free from human fallacies. Like "anybody ending up in prison deserved so", because... judges are infallible. AFAIK
71 cmf : Where have I said anything such? You're blatantly wrong. You should inform yourself better. This is not even a disputed fact.
72 Post contains links connies4ever : Listened to Assange's speech this AM on CBC. To me, it started off well, thanking supporters, Ecuador, etc. Then he seemed to careen into an anti-Amer
73 mham001 : Perhaps they noticed an unhealthy pattern and felt it their duty to prevent it from happening to others?
74 scbriml : Well, it takes two to tango and it seems the ladies involved only complained about being dragged onto the dance floor after they found out Assange ha
75 LTBEWR : About 60 Years ago, the USA convicted on grounds of Treason and executed the Rosenbergs for questionable allegations of them disclosing nuke bomb secr
76 AA7295 : Can someone please explain to me how, even if the US government is actively trying to charge him, it is against freedom of speech? I mean he (Wikileak
77 NoUFO : No Doc, you are incorrect here. If a an embassy was indeed foreign soil, how could your Secretary of State expel the Syrian ambassador? According to
78 connies4ever : Illegal where, exactly ? In the US, for sure. Outside the US, American laws do not apply to non-Americans. To Americans, to some degree. So I would a
79 luckyone : That's what I was thinking. In Ecuador he will be under even further fear as the security situation in Ecuador is not what it is in Europe. If the US
80 Ken777 : Reality is that Assange isn't worth the costs or efforts to go through a long legal battle and trial. He is, IMO, simply a pizz-ant who should be kept
81 us330 : You mean there is no such thing as international common law, per se. International Law is indeed the common term used to describe international treat
82 Quokkas : It would surely depend on the nature of the laws that are infringed. Plotting a terrorist offence against the US, for example, would definitely see y
83 ROSWELL41 : Assange will end up in a US prison eventually. All of this talk of him facing the death penalty is unsubstantiated. I saw him interviewed on a documen
84 DocLightning : AFAIK, if Ecuador has such an aircraft, it is an A320 or 737-type aircraft. I don't think they have any government planes that can make that flight n
85 JJJ : An Embraer Legacy actually.
86 bjorn14 : In Norway, we have terrorist Mullah Krekar living off the taxpayer dime who won't be sent back to Iraq because Iraq can't guarentee he won't be put t
87 Rara : He's not a nice man. His mission is total transparency and freedom of information. He believes this will eventually lead to a better world, and if th
88 Post contains images connies4ever : (Applause) I'd add Rummy, Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, and a few others. For all his faults, Al Gore would not have made this blunder and caused the traged
89 Post contains links NAV20 : Full video of Assange's speech from the Ecuadorian balcony. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...-the-ecuadorean-embassy-in-london/ To my mind this
90 connies4ever : Agreed. All along (i.e., from the creation of Wikileaks) this seems to be his main driver. For what reason, I cannot fathom. There are many reasons t
91 bogota : People hiding out of embassies in car boots happen only in movies and dictatorships, when unruly governments decide not to adhere to international tr
92 connies4ever : I am dubious about that statement. Assange has no diplomatic status and is wanted on a criminal warrant. In Cold War times people, usually from Warsa
93 GDB : While on one level Assange can cite the illegal practice of 'Extraordinary Rendition', (which likely recruited to terror as many as it deterred), he a
94 AirPacific747 : I think Assange is a whiner and should stand trial in Sweden for a crime he may have done. He is just being paranoid or using wikileaks as an excuse t
95 sccutler : "My" GOP figures? I assume you meant, GOP figures in the USA? In any event, apologizing again for my ignorance, can you help me out by telling who it
96 NAV20 : With respect, bogota, the situation is actually the reverse of what you describe. The Swedish government has formally requested that Assange be extra
97 Post contains links scbriml : No, he's already exhausted the legal process of appeals against his extradition. Hence the large numbers of police outside the Ecuador embassy waitin
98 bogota : All that is irrelevant at this time, if the Ecuadorian government decided to grant his asylum is exactly because the Ecuadorian government did not agr
99 Post contains images cmf : Much more complicated than that. Deliberately breaking the condom is one accusation. There isn't. But as the UK judge said, in UK he would have been
100 bogota : Plenty more, exact reason why the UK can not be at the same level of that type of governments. And it is also the right of the Ecuadorian government
101 Ken777 : Obviously there are Afghans and Iraqis would would love to run into Assange somewhere in Sweden. Look at family members of those who have been killed
102 Stratofish : There is no denial that Assange is arrogant indeed. However the repeated ASSUMPTION (because that's all it really is) that people have been killed be
103 scbriml : Can you provide anything to support this claim of deaths due to documents published on Wikileaks?
104 Aesma : So you're saying that the case is either dodgy or would grant him at most a few years in jail. So why then does he act like he does ? Doesn't what yo
105 scbriml : It's entirely possible that the whole "I'll be sent to the US" claim is a ploy to avoid the need to return to Sweden to face whatever awaits him ther
106 Post contains links NAV20 : Have to disagree, Aesma - in my opinion 'they' - or should I say 'we' - DO have to do it. The Western democracies, over the years, have developed a c
107 ozglobal : On what basis? He is not a US citizen, so whatever he has done, it is not 'treason', nor has whatever he has done occurred on US soil, nor has it bee
108 Ken777 : Look at the post I was responding to: I don't have to provide death certificates. It is an assumption based on possible damage/hard exposed individua
109 bogota : You are absolutely right and the British Government is no exception. And International Treaties are considered international law and unless the Briti
110 luckyone : "It's entirely possible that the whole "I'll be sent to the US" claim is a ploy to avoid the need to return to Sweden to face whatever awaits him the
111 scbriml : So that's a "no" then? OK, for my education, enlighten me as to which treaty, of which the the UK is a signatory, states that the British Government
112 Rara : Why even ask? If there was even ONE documented case, you know it'd be all over the net and endlessly cited as proof that Wikileaks is the devil's see
113 Aesma : I guess we must all live in dictatorships then, because bail jumpers and criminals are roaming the streets and clearly all costs are not put on the t
114 bogota : As for your education and ignoring your attitude when trying to keep a civilized conversation, the safe passage is granted to those people other gove
115 Post contains links ozglobal : No need to apologise, just use Google. Here's a non-exhaustive list of (mainly) conservative Americans who've called for Assange's execution: http://
116 Maverick623 : That's the funny thing: AFAIK, he hadn't been in the US during this whole affair (and has never been a US citizen), therefore, he isn't subject to US
117 Quokkas : It is a common misconception to believe that to be subject to the jurisdiction of a country you have to be either a citizen of, or present in that co
118 BMI727 : Or just do it the illegal way. Who's going to step up for Assange? In reality though, the only person who thinks that Assange is worth some huge cove
119 Maverick623 : It is not a misconception. The fact that the US continually violates the sovereignty of other countries and their citizens does not make it legally c
120 Post contains links and images NAV20 : I think that's probably dead right. Indeed, this current story strongly suggests that the odds are against the USA being able to mount any sort of 's
121 Quokkas : Not the same logic at all. Assange stealing or receiving stolen US property is a different matter altogether. There might also be the question of his
122 AR385 : Maybe things have changed, but I can assure that during the Argentine dictatorship, a few people, including an ex-president whose name I can´t remem
123 ozglobal : And be just like any other despotic banana republic with no respect for the rule of law....
124 Rara : So what you're saying is, if you were in power, you'd have him assassinated or abducted when possible, and yet at the same time you say he shouldn't
125 Post contains links Quokkas : Sweden has assisted the US in the rendition of "suspected terrorists" in the past. Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery were packed off to Egypt where th
126 cmf : What do you think will be the consequences? Not just in this case but in all other cases. You pretty much authorize state sponsored terrorism. You're
127 Quokkas : Now that Sweden has made an extradition request and Britain has acceded to that request, the US has to wait in the queue, so to speak. Hence the poss
128 Post contains links and images scbriml : Attitude? Something lost in translation, me thinks. So I'll ask again. Which treaty do you believe the UK has signed that guarantees they provide saf
129 cmf : The accusations made from the Asange side is that all of this is an attempt to have him extradited to US. If everything that happened in Sweden was a
130 OzGlobal : You perhaps are forgetting the scramble at the time in the US to find any legal basis on which he could be charged under US law. Great legal luminari
131 bogota : For starters: wanted criminal...in my side of the world people are innocent until proven guilty. Second if you just keep reading Anglo views on the s
132 scbriml : We have the same quaint concept here as well. I was talking generally, not specifically about Assange, but the principle still applies. However, give
133 BMI727 : Not really. There isn't much reason for all of the legal hand wringing going on since he could be dealt with by means outside the legal system. But f
134 cmf : ??? So US could not find a way to charge him but they did manage to get a woman working for the socialist party to invite Assange, stay in her place,
135 luckyone : A question that has not been asked: What's in this for Ecuador? What do they really get out of this? And what did they want out of this? I don't recal
136 bogota : He obviously jumped bail, if not he would have never made it to the Ecuadorian Embassy that is obvious, so judging him for that obviates the whole go
137 cmf : I don't understand why you think political asylum is applicable. Seems abuse to bring it up.
138 bogota : Of course, how do you think he got to the Embassy to search for asylum. Just questioning it is ridiculous. That is what Ecuador wants to do from now
139 bogota : Have you even read what the far right in the USA and other Anglo nations have said about Mr. Assange? Regardless if anybody likes the guy or not, fin
140 cmf : Ridiculous is the inconsistent logic you apply. First you claim he is innocent until proven guilty. Ignoring that by jumping bail he became guilty. H
141 Post contains images NAV20 : Probably because you're a bit young, bogota. As cmf indicates in his reply to you, the proper term is not just 'asylum,' it is 'political asylum.' An
142 OzGlobal : Have you been paying attention? There are no rape CHARGES, only demad to face questioning. It is also unprecedented that the UK EXTRADITE someone who
143 NAV20 : That's just 'playing with words,' IMO mate. We all know that there is 'a case to answer' - and also that (very fairly) Sweden cannot lay formal charg
144 MD11Engineer : IIRC under Swedish law they can´t charge him in absentia. This also the reason why the crazy Swedish motorbiker, who regularly and highly dangerousl
145 ogre727 : He doesn´t "become guilty" for jumping bail! This is nonsense... if, for instance, he feared he would be unfairly tried and he fled, even if innocen
146 MD11Engineer : He is now by British law guilty of jumping the bail and evading arrest. Jan
147 ogre727 : I might be explaining myself wrong... he is not guilty of whatever he is being accussed of, just guilty of jumping bail. There is a big difference
148 MD11Engineer : But for the British it is an arrestable offense now. And he is basically showing the bobbies two fingers. I wonder what´s in for Ecuador. If it is j
149 cmf : As explained by others, it does not make him guilty in the rape/molestation case. He is however, with no possibility of doubt, guilty of not followin
150 bogota : What a ridiculous argument on your behalf, trying keeping you arguments at a decent level and we might have a decent conversation. You have no idea a
151 bogota : I totally agree, the logic applied has no reasoning when we are talking about political asylum.
152 bogota : Please read my explanation on the subject.
153 Post contains links scbriml : I understand how asylum works and what it's for. It isn't for avoiding due process of law in a civilised country. No, it's designed to enable people
154 NAV20 : Please note the 'smiley' at the end of my sentence, bogota - which you didn't quote. My post went on to refer to a truly historic UN Resolution that
155 Post contains images cmf : I'll grant you it is for political reasons. Not for his opinion, not for political reasons in Sweden, UK or even USA. It clearly is politics why Ecua
156 bogota : Wrong, asylum works for all countries, plus who is to judge what is and what is not a civilized country. That is not how the world works. So why can
157 Acheron : You should really read more on this matter before making claims like the bolded one. Just saying. As for guyanans not wanting to be venezuelan, they
158 cmf : Because USA have not made any charges so UK and Sweden can't know if there may be validity to a potential future charge. Why doesn't he have the righ
159 Hywel : Sweden had plenty of time to question him in the Ecuadorian embassy, but they refused to do so. I wonder why they insisted on having him present in Sw
160 cmf : Spend a few moments on how the Swedish system works and it is very understandable why. It is pretty much guaranteed he will be charged soon after the
161 bogota : That is exactly the problem, Ecuador does not believe that Assange will not be extradited to the USA in the future and if Ecuador is to hand out Assa
162 cmf : Sweden would certainly not grant it if there is a chance of death penalty. If there is a request from US I think it would be solid and thus Sweden wo
163 Acheron : What about the sealed indictment mentioned in leaked Stratfor mails? Tell that to Kim Dotcom and the half-assed extradition attempt with New Zealand.
164 cmf : I am not aware of any possibility for a secret extradition request in Sweden. Do you really think US want one more of those.
165 Post contains images Acheron : That would imply governments aren't prone to fucking up things repeatedly
166 bogota : So that means you agree that the only solution is asking for asylum now because he could not do it later. And maybe Sweden might decide to not grant
167 Post contains images cmf : There is absolutely no chance he will be extradited from Sweden if there is a chance of death penalty. Nor is Guantanamo an option. Of course he has
168 bogota : I simply rest my case, you simply do not understand that no Government has the right to override international relations, treaties just to try and sho
169 cmf : It has never been questioned if someone can ask for asylum and if a country have the right to grant it. But you try to take away the rights of the co
170 bogota : So that means if tomorrow a US- American citizen is being persecuted inside Ecuador and he asks for protection inside the British Embassy, then Ecuado
171 cmf : Based on what should free passage be provided? I have never said anything such. Actually I have said the exact opposite of what you attribute to me.
172 NAV20 : That word 'persecuted' seems to be where this discussion is starting to go off the rails. Assange is in no sense being persecuted. He came to Britain
173 bogota : On friday the 34 nation members of the OAS have issued a resolution stating the support for the Republic of Ecuador and have stated the obligation of
174 Post contains links Quokkas : Interesting snippet from the Guardian. They have published excerpts of what appear to be briefing notes on how the Metropolitan Police intend to preve
175 Post contains links cmf : The way you write you make it sound as Ecuador had a major victory and all nations involved agreed with Ecuador. Here is the resolution as adopted, h
176 Maverick623 : The issue becomes not one of whether the trial will be fair, but whether the US has jurisdiction. Again: I have issues with a foreign power charging
177 GDB : Britain is. And it's a bit rich to be lectured in law or worse, freedom, by some tinpot leader who has a very, very poor reputation as regards press
178 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Purely in the interests of entertaining everyone - I thought that I'd better draw attention to what is, IMO, the neatest headline coined so far about
179 bogota : You simply do not grasp it, do you. The United States decided to agree to (not forced but decided to, so did Canada): and you still do not think it w
180 bogota : Totally agree, that is why a nation such as the UK must adhere to International Diplomatic reasoning before resorting to what they have done. What a
181 bogota : Totally entertaining, just out of the imagination of somebody who is definitely in denial about the whole situation. Sad also, that XXI UK government
182 GDB : And who says they are not? There is a law here that in extreme circumstances, an Embassy could be entered, it was brought in after a British Policewo
183 bogota : I am just glad that the US, regardless of what they might think of Assange, has a pretty good understanding of what an asylum is and has realized wha
184 cmf : US, Canada and other nations disagreed with the statement Ecuador wanted. Instead it became an no issue statement about respecting embassies. UK agre
185 bogota : Yea right, if your point of view makes you happy, suit yourself.
186 Post contains links cmf : In that case all the reasons for Assange to stay at the embassy are over as USA obviously will not charge him... On the other hand, you may not have
187 Post contains links Quokkas : I have no doubt that were Assange to appear and be taken to Sweden he would receive a fair trial. But I think it is too much to state with 100% convic
188 cmf : This plus the stink they got after the Egypt disaster mean they will not dare to go down that route again.
189 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Occurs to me that the building owners and the other tenants will be pretty annoyed with the Ecuadorians. The building (No. 3 Hans Crescent, London SW1
190 GDB : What part of proper legal process don't you understand? Since you also seem to have a fantasy about the US somehow supporting Ecuador on this, not a
191 Post contains images scbriml : On one hand you argue that Britain is not meeting it's diplomatic and international obligations but on the other Ecudor expects Sweden and Britain to
192 Post contains links Acheron : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rape-claim-Is-photo-clear-him.html
193 Post contains links scbriml : Well, it seems there's no obvious end in sight. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19427141
194 Derico : The UK's reputation as a human rights conscious democracy has been eviscerated in Latin America. I mean the Pinochet affair had slowly been forgotten,
195 DeltaMD90 : So I'm trying to be very open minded here, but what is stopping Ecuador or any other country from granting political asylum to anyone? I don't see any
196 Post contains links NAV20 : My feeling is that Assange has 'run out of steam,' DeltaMD90. The Wikileaks site hasn't 'leaked' anything (apart from his own balcony talk) for a lon
197 GDB : Lot's of irony behind that statement! Unintentional or not.
198 Derico : GDB, I can't help but noticed that virtually all of your responses are platitudinal ad hominems, no one can criticize the UK apparently if you deem th
199 NAV20 : Derico, what 'human rights' are Assange being denied? He has been accused of a serious criminal offence; so his 'human rights' extend only to him bei
200 weebie : Assange will be walking out the door and heading to Ecuador within the week if you believe what the Australian Media are saying.
201 Post contains links Quokkas : Yet the ABC News site is reporting that it will take between 6 months and a year of diplomacy to resolve the matter. The being 'in denial" that NAV20
202 babybus : That was my thought too. Everyone talks about transparency but he exposed a lot of state secrets. That was very good of him and he shouldn't be polit
203 Post contains links cmf : That isn't how it works in Sweden. Not even the name of the accused is published unless in cases where it has become public knowledge. As to the accu
204 GDB : And he was held until a legal process for extradition to Spain could be enacted, which it was not, sadly. When we talk about the history of human rig
205 Post contains links NAV20 : Don't understand that comment, babybus? The women concerned aren't 'anonymous,' their names and the basis of their complaints have been published. Th
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