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Cadillac Confirms Production Of ELR - Volt 1.5  
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Cadillac last week officially confirmed production of the ELR Coupe, a takeoff from the Converj concept shown in 2010, attempting to build on the growing success of the Voltec drivetrain.




By expanding the plugin hybrid platform, GM expects to lower costs through volume. Voltec v1.5 may include the long-rumored bump in electric-only range that CEO Ackerson has recently been talking about. All electric range is rumored to increase to 70-100 miles and the car will have a 4 cylinder generator. Performance figures have not been released,

The car will be officially introduced at next year's Detroit show.

140 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

Looks like something you'd win inside of a bubble-gum machine.
Is this where our tax dollars went to?
No wonder G.M. is about to ask for another bailout.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

I dislike GM. But their car and truck lines circa 2014 are looking exceptional.

User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 403 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4060 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The sides and front look alright, but I am not a fan of the pointy rear ends Cadillac has been doing. Kills it for me.

User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Is it me or does the above-pic look more like a shortened CTS coupe?


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4046 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
Is it me or does the above-pic look more like a shortened CTS coupe?

It does...

I assume this car is built on the Delta II platform, like the Volt.

I know I am odd, but I like the Volt and would buy one if I could park the thing inside to charge it. My garage is for my toys and stuff, not for modern cars that will be sold in a few years.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Looks like something you'd win inside of a bubble-gum machine.

Cadillac also debuted a flagship concept in Monterey. Another hybrid with a 425hp V6 combined with an electric system. Nearly 200 inches long, Cadillac looks to get back in the boat market.



User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Another hybrid with a 425hp V6 combined with an electric system.



I wont believe it until I see it.
I'm sure there will be an available V8 or larger for the serious driver that does want to fool around with hybrid gimics.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3394 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
attempting to build on the growing success of the Voltec drivetrain.

Success measured how? Certainly not on sales figures.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I'm sure there will be an available V8 or larger for the serious driver that does want to fool around with hybrid gimics.

Unlikely. I could see Cadillac doing several models with Voltec only. It is a great way to get around CAFE and costs are more easily swallowed in the luxury market. I read the ELR price point is rumored at $60k.

[Edited 2012-08-20 09:33:30]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
I could see Cadillac doing several models with Voltec only.

I doubt it will even go in to production.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
Success measured how? Certainly not on sales figures.

Last I read, it leads all cars sold in customer satisfaction.

Here is the list of cars that the Volt outsold last month...

Pos Model July /11 Jun 2012 /11 Pos 2011
134 Chevrolet Volt 1,849 n/a 144 10,666 272% 149 204
135 Chevrolet Avalanche 1,823 12% 147 12,825 24% 132 143
136 Mercedes M Class 1,790 -36% 111 22,416 32% 97 112
137 Buick Regal 1,784 -49% 124 16,612 -35% 119 84
138 Volvo XC60 1,782 73% 148 10,292 21% 151 153
139 Cadillac XTS 1,739 new 186 2,492 new 222 -
140 Audi A5 1,732 32% 149 9,734 7% 154 151
141 Lincoln MKX 1,724 -10% 136 14,152 11% 127 134
142 Scion xB 1,708 43% 137 11,914 22% 137 144
143 BMW 7 Series 1,696 159% 211 7,300 20% 167 168
144 Audi A6 1,691 67% 145 10,275 124% 152 192
145 Toyota Avalon 1,690 -37% 142 18,341 14% 114 117
146 Lexus GS 1,662 410% 131 12,732 429% 133 214
147 Scion FR-S 1,649 new 117 4,419 new 195 -
148 Lexus CT 1,499 -3% 155 10,945 106% 146 189
149 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport 1,462 -7% 154 9,512 1% 156 150
150 Chevrolet Spark 1,460 new - 1,460 new 232 -
151 Acura ILX 1,410 new 164 2,659 new 220 -
152 Hyundai Veracruz 1,370 37% 198 5,153 0% 183 184
153 Nissan Quest 1,368 -4% 133 12,111 83% 136 171
154 Nissan Armada 1,363 -8% 143 10,837 6% 148 142
155 Mitsubishi Lancer 1,354 -31% 152 9,849 -20% 153 136
156 Mazda6 1,289 -49% 125 26,658 47% 87 105
157 Toyota Yaris 1,271 -9% 132 21,242 62% 106 125
158 Range Rover Sport 1,212 4% 158 8,419 4% 158 156
159 Kia Sedona 1,181 -58% 139 11,793 -15% 139 133
160 Porsche Cayenne 1,119 2% 169 7,606 -7% 163 158
161 Ford Police Interceptor Sedan 1,106 new 156 3,962 new 204 -
162 Suzuki SX4 1,098 -7% 160 7,555 4% 164 161
163 VW Routan 1,094 -32% 166 6,116 -21% 172 160
164 Toyota FJ Cruiser 1,037 -18% 165 7,415 -9% 165 159
165 Toyota Sequoia 1,020 -1% 162 7,269 5% 168 162
166 Mazda5 994 -16% 167 7,939 -39% 161 124
167 Chevrolet Corvette 987 -23% 153 8,009 -2% 160 157
168 Honda Ridgeline 981 160% 159 8,250 48% 159 172
169 Scion xD 977 37% 170 6,479 10% 169 174
170 Hyundai Azera 977 578% 172 4,143 234% 201 229
171 Mazda2 905 -16% 176 11,056 30% 143 154
172 Audi Q7 891 13% 196 5,340 -3% 180 180
173 Infiniti QX56 890 -12% 168 7,359 11% 166 165
174 Lincoln MKS 878 -20% 163 7,682 22% 162 173
175 Mercedes S Class 852 -4% 174 6,362 -1% 170 166
176 BMW 6 Series 843 50% 203 4,420 164% 194 227
177 Lexus GX 813 -2% 182 5,701 -12% 173 164
178 Smart Fortwo 780 138% 171 5,528 1590% 178 206
179 Volvo XC90 773 -21% 185 5,611 -7% 175 175
180 Dodge Dart 772 new 234 974 new 240 -
181 VW Touareg 740 42% 183 5,254 45% 181 196
182 Lincoln MKT 738 57% 194 4,386 47% 196 210
183 GMC Canyon 720 -49% 177 6,361 14% 171 185
184 Porsche 911 684 42% 178 5,517 46% 179 195
185 Ford Police Interceptor Utility 684 new 209 2,857 new 217 -
186 Range Rover 672 -16% 188 4,832 -17% 186 176
187 Mercedes CLS Class 665 -5% 184 4,593 126% 191 224
188 Nissan 370Z 654 19% 189 5,127 1% 184 182
189 Infiniti M 652 -6% 181 5,593 -9% 176 167
190 Nissan NV 651 -4% 187 5,536 212% 177 201
191 Audi A3 651 49% 205 4,229 11% 199 194
192 Mitsubishi Outlander 632 -34% 197 4,699 -18% 189 179
193 Porsche Panamera 627 1% 206 4,732 14% 188 193
194 Range Rover Evoque 621 new 199 4,976 new 185 -
195 Mazda MX-5 590 4% 204 4,016 10% 202 197
196 Audi A7 578 -18% 200 4,827 79% 187 216
197 Nissan Cube 578 -48% 191 4,663 -63% 190 128
198 Mitsubishi Galant 576 -64% 151 11,202 -6% 142 137
199 Scion iQ 557 new 192 5,641 new 174 -
200 Dodge Cargo Van 555 new 161 3,998 new 203 -
201 Lexus LS 536 -14% 217 3,572 -26% 205 183
202 VW Eos 533 -54% 190 4,221 -13% 200 191
203 Land Rover LR4 532 -17% 195 4,296 -9% 198 186
204 Suzuki Kizashi 526 -21% 213 3,544 -20% 206 190
205 Lincoln Navigator 525 -9% 207 4,381 0% 197 188
206 Dodge Caliber 520 -84% 173 9,502 -62% 157 87
207 Chevrolet Caprice PPV 500 456% 226 1,680 984% 228 250
208 Infiniti FX 498 -23% 208 5,195 -7% 182 178
209 Subaru BRZ 498 new 180 1,587 new 230 -
210 Jaguar XF 485 3% 216 3,458 20% 208 212
211 Suzuki Grand Vitara 473 23% 221 3,035 3% 214 207
212 Mercedes SL Class 449 383% 224 2,024 94% 225 236
213 Jaguar XJ 421 9% 220 3,089 -10% 212 198
214 Volvo XC70 420 -28% 218 3,042 -4% 213 205
215 Honda Insight 419 -57% 215 4,460 -63% 193 129
216 Ford Ranger 413 -94% 175 18,855 -48% 112 65
217 Audi A8 401 -11% 210 2,949 -11% 215 202
218 Nissan LEAF 395 -58% 212 3,543 -26% 207 187
219 BMW 1 Series 379 -43% 193 4,543 -14% 192 181
220 Hyundai Equus 362 20% 223 2,347 39% 223 220
221 Porsche Boxster 359 77% 219 983 -25% 238 228
222 Honda CR-Z 330 -62% 222 2,734 -69% 219 148
223 Mazda CX-7 324 90% 157 10,983 41% 144 104
224 Volvo C70 306 -27% 179 3,170 -6% 210 199
225 Lexus LX 306 16% 225 2,874 65% 216 219
226 Land Rover LR2 283 33% 229 1,788 26% 227 226
227 Volvo C30 271 -13% 230 1,638 -16% 229 218
228 BMW X6 259 -55% 202 3,095 -7% 211 203
229 Toyota Land Cruiser 259 162% 228 1,448 51% 233 237
230 Ford Crown Victoria 243 -95% 232 2,820 -92% 218 64
231 Mercedes SLK 235 -79% 227 2,499 13% 221 230
232 Volvo S80 231 -50% 214 2,148 -28% 224 208
233 Infiniti EX 215 -62% 231 2,011 -42% 226 200
234 BMW Z4 173 -62% 233 1,585 -36% 231 215
235 Audi TT 169 -5% 236 1,311 7% 235 231
236 Suzuki Equator 167 -22% 235 1,115 -9% 237 233
237 Subaru Tribeca 151 -36% 237 1,242 -18% 236 225
238 Nissan GT-R 128 129% 239 711 -19% 244 238
239 Jaguar XK 105 -17% 240 970 -11% 241 235
240 Mitsubishi Eclipse 93 -88% 238 977 -84% 239 170
241 Acura ZDX 85 -17% 246 501 -52% 250 234
242 Lincoln Town Car 77 -91% 243 764 -89% 243 163
243 Mercedes G Class 64 -44% 248 525 -30% 248 242
244 Mercedes SLS AMG 59 20% 241 618 58% 246 246
245 Audi R8 55 -33% 245 558 -18% 247 243
246 Dodge Nitro 45 -98% 242 3,182 -77% 209 122
247 Acura RL 40 -43% 251 254 -72% 257 239
248 Mercedes CL Class 39 62% 247 426 -20% 254 244
249 Mitsubishi Endeavour 34 -97% 249 452 -93% 252 169
250 Mitsubishi i-MiEV 33 new 250 366 new 256 -
251 Mercedes R Class 32 -43% 201 1,402 -25% 234 217
252 Cadillac DTS 20 -97% 244 449 -95% 253 141
253 Dodge Dakota 19 -98% 255 478 -95% 251 146
254 Porsche Cayman 14 -89% 252 415 -51% 255 241
255 Buick Lucerne 11 -99% 254 954 -94% 242 110
256 Cadillac STS 7 -95% 253 149 -94% 258 209
257 Lexus HS 4 -99% 257 626 -62% 245 221
258 Lexus LFA 3 -57% 260 27 -25% 262 253
259 Mazda Tribute 2 -99% 261 503 -69% 249 223
260 Chevrolet Aveo 2 -100% 259 58 -100% 260 89


http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2012/...012-new-gen-nissan-altima-up-to-5/


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Is this where our tax dollars went to?

Nope.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Voltec v1.5 may include the long-rumored bump in electric-only range that CEO Ackerson has recently been talking about. All electric range is rumored to increase to 70-100 miles and the car will have a 4 cylinder generator. Performance figures have not been released,

As electric vehicle development progresses I look forward to the use of battery/generator combo's expanding and the performance to increase greatly as the direct electric drive systems mature.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
I know I am odd, but I like the Volt and would buy one if I could park the thing inside to charge it. My garage is for my toys and stuff, not for modern cars that will be sold in a few years.

I too like the Volt and look forward to its technology and drive-train to be used in an expanded lineup of cars. For a long time I have thought that its concept is just the best and most effective for a commuter car: A battery and electric drive-train with a generator connected to it for "assist". I think ultimately all drive-trains will go electric and the power source will vary (battery, fuel cell, generator.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I'm sure there will be an available V8 or larger for the serious driver that does want to fool around with hybrid gimics.

A V8 May be available but I suspect the "hybrid gimmick" version will begin to outsell them enormously as the electric performance can blow a gasoline version out of the water. Just give it time.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Last I read, it leads all cars sold in customer satisfaction.

Here is the list of cars that the Volt outsold last month...

   You can't say that, the car is a FAILURE and only exists because of gub'ment commandment. It's really horrible....

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Cadillac Confirms Production Of ELR - Volt 1.5 

The Volt isn't expensive enough?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Is this where our tax dollars went to?

No, those are probably going to keep Opel solvent.   

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
Is it me or does the above-pic look more like a shortened CTS coupe?

You know how some people make those awful F355 replicas off of a Fiero chassis? The ELR looks like someone tried to make a CTS coupe replica off a Honda Civic chassis.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
Success measured how? Certainly not on sales figures.

With the Fisker Karma now being recalled for catching fire (again), the Volt is the default winner in the electric car wars.

Besides, when has having a subpar product ever been a problem for Cadillac? After the Cimarron, Allante, et. al, it's basically Caddie's schtick. Put it on billboards: "The New 2014 Cadillac ELR: Because You Know It Can't Be Worse Than The XTS"



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
No, those are probably going to keep Opel solvent.


Got it.
Thanks.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The Volt isn't expensive enough?


Good point. I forgot about that.

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
A V8 May be available but I suspect the "hybrid gimmick" version will begin to outsell them enormously as the electric performance can blow a gasoline version out of the water. Just give it time.


The more powerful version of any car always gets outsold by the cheaper credit option. Mercedes sales a hell of a lot more V6 and V8 models of their S-class than they do the V12.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
With the Fisker Karma now being recalled for catching fire (again),


Wow, I passed up those stories. Seriously?
Our tax dollars went overseas to make flamable cars in Finland?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Besides, when has having a subpar product ever been a problem for Cadillac? After the Cimarron, Allante, et. al, it's basically Caddie's schtick. Put it on billboards: "The New 2014 Cadillac ELR: Because You Know It Can't Be Worse Than The XTS"


Haha!  
The Allante wasn't a bad car. The Cadillac failures were the 1981 4/6/8 engine, gas to diesel engine (1979-1985) and the HT4100 aluminum engine (1981-1989).
ALL of their failure were to confirm to government mandated CAFE laws.
Government needs to butt-out of the auto industry and let people buy the cars they want and let the manufactures build the cars people want to buy without any government coercion to buy specific vehicles.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The Volt isn't expensive enough?

People who buy it say it compares favorably with other $40k cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
With the Fisker Karma now being recalled for catching fire (again), the Volt is the default winner in the electric car wars.

Except that the Volt is not in the electric class.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Besides, when has having a subpar product ever been a problem for Cadillac?

And yet they outperfom Acura, Audi and BMW in reliability, and that's only the A and B names on the list.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...study=909201235&catStudy=909201236


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
People who buy it say it compares favorably with other $40k cars.



In terms of what?
Niche market vehicle owners (myself included) will always have a favorable opinion of their vehicle of choice. They are loyalist. Other vehicles in the $40K range off the top of my head would be the Ford Mustang GT convertible, Chrysler 300C SRT8, Cadillac CTS (fully loaded), Mercedes E-class (base model) or Lexus GS-series.
There is no way that the Chevrolet Volt can stack up against any of these vehicles I listed.
The Volt would only win in terms of efficiency but someone concerned about cheap transportation shouldn't be looking in the $40K range anyway.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Cadillac also debuted a flagship concept in Monterey. Another hybrid with a 425hp V6 combined with an electric system.

Certainly a nice-looking vehicle.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Nearly 200 inches long, Cadillac looks to get back in the boat market.

Sorry, but 200 inches OAL is not even considered full-size in my book, let alone a boat. For comparison purposes, the last Lincoln Town Car (standard length model) was about 215", the '96 Cadillac Fleetwood was about 225" and the gigantic '76 Fleetwood was about 233".

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
It is a great way to get around CAFE

Which is only one-election (and not just the Presidency, mind you) away of being fully-repealed.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Here is the list of cars that the Volt outsold last month...

I know that you personally didn't compile that list, but there are several vehicles in that listing that have been out production during this past year. That said, any vehicle could conceivably outsell a discontinued model.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The Cadillac failures were the 1981 4/6/8 engine

If memory serves, many of Chrysler's current engines offer a variable displacement of sorts; not sure if Caddy quietly revived that concept in some of their engines but didn't use the old V8-6-4 moniker. Cadillac's old V8-6-4 looked good in paper, but like everything else from that era, it was rushed into production too quickly.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
In terms of what?
Niche market vehicle owners (myself included) will always have a favorable opinion of their vehicle of choice. They are loyalist. Other vehicles in the $40K range off the top of my head would be the Ford Mustang GT convertible, Chrysler 300C SRT8, Cadillac CTS (fully loaded), Mercedes E-class (base model) or Lexus GS-series.
There is no way that the Chevrolet Volt can stack up against any of these vehicles I listed.
The Volt would only win in terms of efficiency but someone concerned about cheap transportation shouldn't be looking in the $40K range anyway.

This article has what I think is a fair comparison of the Volt and other vehicle. It rates the Volt as #8 out of 19.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...cks/rankings/Upscale-Midsize-Cars/

Probably the best/closest comparison could be the VW CC, and the Acura TSX. You could always throw in the Lexus Corrol... I mean HS.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 17):
Which is only one-election (and not just the Presidency, mind you) away of being fully-repealed.



I can't wait!   
Luckily Romney is a car guy and comes from a car family that knows how to run a car business.

Quoting tugger (Reply 18):
This article has what I think is a fair comparison of the Volt and other vehicle. It rates the Volt as #8 out of 19.


Sorry but I'm skeptical of any vehicle that gets as much media hype and government support as this vehicle.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Sorry but I'm skeptical of any vehicle that gets as much media hype and government support as this vehicle.

Sorry, but that is just silly. One could say the same about any post you make because we all know your preference in vehicles. But we don't because you make your case and work to support what you say.

The article I posted is simple in what it presents and compares it against a fair range of vehicles. Whatever "support" you think is going on has nothing to do with the comparisons being fair and valid.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 20):
One could say the same about any post you make because we all know your preference in vehicles.



My taste in vehicles don't receive media hype, tax credits, carpool lane access (in some states), nor were produced with taxpayer dollars to achieve a desired result.
See the difference?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Niche market vehicle owners (myself included) will always have a favorable opinion of their vehicle of choice. They are loyalist. Other vehicles in the $40K range off the top of my head would be the Ford Mustang GT convertible, Chrysler 300C SRT8, Cadillac CTS (fully loaded), Mercedes E-class (base model) or Lexus GS-series.
There is no way that the Chevrolet Volt can stack up against any of these vehicles I listed.
The Volt would only win in terms of efficiency but someone concerned about cheap transportation shouldn't be looking in the $40K range anyway.

From what I read, it draws from BMW 3 series and Lexus in the midsize sedan catagory, in addition to those moving up from the Prius. Owners say it is quick, it handles better than anybody expected (low CG), they seem to enjoy the interior features, it is well built and it has been very reliable so far. The problem with the critics is that they try to compare it with economy cars. It isn't. One drawback seems to be lack of a middle rear seat.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
My taste in vehicles don't receive media hype, tax credits, carpool lane access (in some states), nor were produced with taxpayer dollars to achieve a desired result.
See the difference?

How much "media hype" have you seen? I have seen very, very little if any "hype" about the volt. I saw some in the beginning because it was "the next big thing" and then when it became "the next big failure". But I have not seen much hype on it beyond the scale it has for the market it is in. In my opinion I have seen about the same amount of info on most other cars as I have for the Volt (beyond what I just noted above).

Tax credits? Car pool lane access? That is available to any vehicle that meets whatever criteria is set, the Leaf and other cars meet them too. While I don't fully agree with such concepts it is not just the Volt.

Now assuming you are not trying to continue the popular but incorrect trope that the Volt was funded by and driven by government, the taxpayer has supported production of almost every one of the the vehicles currently produced (including those in the past that you love so). The tax rules are fully utilized for R&D spending and development of every car. Not just the Volt.

Do you see the difference?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 23):
How much "media hype" have you seen?

Lots, including a Presidential visit to the production line.

Quoting tugger (Reply 23):
That is available to any vehicle that meets whatever criteria is set, the Leaf and other cars meet them too.

Throw all of those in there too.

Quoting tugger (Reply 23):
Now assuming you are not trying to continue the popular but incorrect

It's very correct.


I'm not here to argue. If GM can keep people employed then I am all for it.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
Lots, including a Presidential visit to the production line.

And he visits plenty of other places too.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
Throw all of those in there too.

Fair enough.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
I'm not here to argue. If GM can keep people employed then I am all for it.

I agree. Ultimately I hope they keep many, many people employed for many, many years to come. Their success will be determined by the product they produce and I hope they keep their eye on the ball and produce good products that consumers will buy. I very much support American manufacturing and want it to thrive.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 25):
And he visits plenty of other places too.

Like Solyndra.   

Quoting tugger (Reply 25):
Ultimately I hope they keep many, many people employed for many, many years to come. I very much support American manufacturing and want it to thrive.

  
We can agree on that.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
I too like the Volt and look forward to its technology and drive-train to be used in an expanded lineup of cars. For a long time I have thought that its concept is just the best and most effective for a commuter car: A battery and electric drive-train with a generator connected to it for "assist". I think ultimately all drive-trains will go electric and the power source will vary (battery, fuel cell, generator.

It's funny here how some whine about the distinctive look of the Prius yet now we see a car that looks pretty mainstream and that's no good either.

I wouldn't be too surprised if I give this car or one like it a good look at some point in the future. I like the idea of a stylish electric car and I could live quite well with a predictable 70 mile range.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Other vehicles in the $40K range off the top of my head would be the Ford Mustang GT convertible, Chrysler 300C SRT8, Cadillac CTS (fully loaded), Mercedes E-class (base model) or Lexus GS-series.
http://www.cadillac.com/cts-luxury-coupe/build-your-own.html shows that the "premium" CTS starts at $49k, and without leaving the first page I got over $50k by adding all wheel drive. Premium paint += $1k. Power Sunroof += $700. Various odds and ends brings you to $53,375 but minus $2k for 'cash offers' to $51,375 but then add in title, tags, any warrantee coverage, etc makes it hard to call the loaded vehicle a $40k class car.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 17):
I know that you personally didn't compile that list, but there are several vehicles in that listing that have been out production during this past year. That said, any vehicle could conceivably outsell a discontinued model.

Of course there are, it is a list of vehicles sold, not vehicles produced.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 17):
Which is only one-election (and not just the Presidency, mind you) away of being fully-repealed.

As a good Conservative, I will be voting for Obama as I don't believe there is anything more important for the future of the USA than losing its foreign oil dependence.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5509 posts, RR: 28
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
As a good Conservative, I will be voting for Obama as I don't believe there is anything more important for the future of the USA than losing its foreign oil dependence.

President Obama has shown no inclination at all towards achieving that laudable goal.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
I assume this car is built on the Delta II platform, like the Volt.
2013 Cadillac ELR


Indeed, it is a based on GM's Dellta II platform - shared with the Volt, Chevy Cruze, and the Buick Verano - and numerous Opel & Holden models. I have seen the Converj concept vehicle "in the flesh" from which the ELR is spawned - and the Converj was really beautiful. Cadillac took time to evolve the CTS' edgy "art and science" design language for the new ATS and the big XTS sedans - but the ELR is exceptional, in my opinion.

The next-generation "VOLTEC" system will give the ELR the electric range of the Volt, maybe a little more. The ELR will be somewhat heavier than the Volt - thanks to all of the standard Cadillac power equipment and the use of more sound deadening materials - and the range extending internal combustion engine/generator is rumored to be a 2.0 liter turbocharged Ecotec 4 cylinder petrol engine. Cadillac also plans to extensively use expensive high-strength, light-weight steel in the construction of the ELR. And the price tag for the ELR should be about $60K USD, as was mentioned above. In the days when we have Porsche hybrids and movie stars driving Prius hatchbacks, I think the ELR will be a popular car with wealthier buyers.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):
How about the base CTS?

Base CTS is approximately $36000 USD while the base ATS sedan is priced from $33000. The ELR (meaning "Electric Eldorado" perhaps?) is meant to be upscale, more of a Fisker Atlantic (the Karma's little brother) competitor.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
Base CTS is approximately $36000 USD


Thanks for the correction.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
The ELR (meaning "Electric Eldorado" perhaps?)



Oh God no!   
There is NO comparison to the majestic Eldorado.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
Cadillac took time to evolve the CTS' edgy "art and science" design language for the new ATS and the big XTS sedans - but the ELR is exceptional, in my opinion.

I'd say it's an improvement, but that's as far as I'd go.

They've toned down the 'grinning idiot' front end to 'bucktoothed moron'.

Still too garish for my tastes.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
In the days when we have Porsche hybrids and movie stars driving Prius hatchbacks, I think the ELR will be a popular car with wealthier buyers.

I do wish them well. For my dollar, I better totally be in love with it to spend $60k+, and I don't think this will do it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
As a good Conservative, I will be voting for Obama as I don't believe there is anything more important for the future of the USA than losing its foreign oil dependence.

You do realize that w/Obama, you also get the likely return of Interior Secretary Ken Salazar (who would shut off all domestic oil drilling if given the chance) and/or Energy Secretary Stephen Hu (Mr. "$8/Gallon Gasoline").

Everybody wants to get off the use of imported oil but the most Democrats & liberals don't believe in the use of domestic oil and gas. That's where the two political views differ the most.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3644 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
That's where the two political views differ the most.

I think the difference is that one party wants to get off petroleum as fast as possible, and is willing to do a few things to seed the alternative fuel industry, whereas the other ...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 29):
President Obama has shown no inclination at all towards achieving that laudable goal.

It is already happening. You may not have noticed but our fuel consumption is down.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
The next-generation "VOLTEC" system will give the ELR the electric range of the Volt, maybe a little more.

I think there is little doubt that the V1.5 will have a bump in electric range. Ackerson, as late as last week, has been touting battery advancements and 200 mile range coming.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
Everybody wants to get off the use of imported oil but the most Democrats & liberals don't believe in the use of domestic oil and gas. That's where the two political views differ the most.

If that were the case, Limbaugh and his Republicans would not have spent so much energy trying to kill the Volt. These people are not Conservatives but oil mongers, paid for by lobbyists. Our natural gas is good, and for 1/3 the cost of drilling and refining oil, we can use our gas to create electricity. Or we can just burn the NG direct, albeit less efficiently. After 3 oil wars in 20 years and the BP accident, there is no doubt that oil needs to be yesterday's news.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
After 3 oil wars in 20 years and the BP accident, there is no doubt that oil needs to be yesterday's news.

It seems to me that "conservative" minds just don't want to go there...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
For my dollar, I better totally be in love with it to spend $60k+, and I don't think this will do it.

Here's what you do: go to your local BMW dealer and buy a 3 Series hybrid. That way you get two more doors, a better driving experience, and another $10k in your pocket. The only potential downside is not being obviously a hybrid from a distance.

That dumb Chevy Volt commercial with the girl who wants to go to Hawaii drives me up a wall. If she'd just bought any normal compact car instead she could have been to Hawaii and back already. Every time I see it I want to reach through the television and strangle the bitch.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
If that were the case, Limbaugh and his Republicans would not have spent so much energy trying to kill the Volt.

It's not a matter of killing the Volt. If it can sell on its own good for GM. But stop throwing tax credits and bailing out the company.

And I'm sick of the government pushing their way into my life telling what I should or should not drive. If you have a problem with fuel costs, by all means ride a bike, but leave me alone.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
You may not have noticed but our fuel consumption is down.

Recessions have been known to do that. More unemployed people mean less people are driving to/from work.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Our natural gas is good, and for 1/3 the cost of drilling and refining oil, we can use our gas to create electricity.

Last time I checked , it was the liberals that are presently protesting fracking (for natural gas) in Pennsylvania (a state where I reside BTW). And if memory serves, it was the liberals that were protesting the use of nuclear power and the addition of more power plants; despite the fact that some European countries use it more often. A report from 15 to 20 years ago mentioned that 90% of France's electricity was generated from nuclear power.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Limbaugh and his Republicans would not have spent so much energy trying to kill the Volt.

Their beef regarding the Volt go beyond the vehicle itself; their beef includes the combination of the bailout money and the government mandating the electric vehicle (via CAFE) as opposed to letting the actual market decide.

Let me see if I am reading you correctly: you're not just against the use of imported oil (which I can agree with you on) but you're against the use of all oil regardless of origin. Is that correct? My earlier replies were based on the assumption (which may not be correct based on reading your later posts) that you were only against the use of imported/foreign oil.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
As a good Conservative, I will be voting for Obama

Write in Ron Paul instead, you'll likely get the same result.  



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Nice looking small coupe, I'm sure it would also sell well if they made a non hybrid version.

User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Recessions have been known to do that.

Even with some growth, consumption is down the last months.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Let me see if I am reading you correctly: you're not just against the use of imported oil (which I can agree with you on) but you're against the use of all oil regardless of origin. Is that correct?

No. I am not against the use of our oil. I do understand however that we will not drill our way out of this with domestic oil. Not only that, we will still be paying world market prices, still in need of ensuring worldwide supplies and still bent over the barrel. Unless you are suggesting we nationalize the oil fields, electric will always be the cheaper energy source. It is time for this country to lead us on to other, better means. It is coming, Volts owners have documented proof that tremendous percentages of transportation oil can be supplanted. And if it happens to be cleaner, so what?


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Recessions have been known to do that.

Even with some growth, consumption is down the last months.

Any recent growth (if one wants to call it that) has been anemic at best. We've been in a Real World recession for several years now. Which explains why oil/gas consumption is still down. A mild winter in the northeast also helped greatly in that as well. Not to mention rising gas prices again.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
electric will always be the cheaper energy source.

Are you sure you mean electric there? Electricity needs a source to be generated from, be it hydro, nuclear, or oil, etc.

The batteries that power an electric vehicle (trying to get back on topic here) had to be made or generated from some source or component.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
Nice looking small coupe, I'm sure it would also sell well if they made a non hybrid version.

Why would anyone buy that instead of a CTS?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3516 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 42):
Any recent growth (if one wants to call it that) has been anemic at best. We've been in a Real World recession for several years now. Which explains why oil/gas consumption is still down. A mild winter in the northeast also helped greatly in that as well. Not to mention rising gas prices again.

You aren't getting it. Gas use is down this year, a stable year.

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/charts/inflation/gasoline-volume-sales.gif

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 42):

Are you sure you mean electric there?


I know, I went for speed over quality there. How about, the generation of electricity is cheaper and cleaner than the generation of fuel from oil.

Voltec technology has so far allowed Volt owners to drive 77 million all-electric miles, saving 4 million gallons of gasoline (not sure how they got that), as of today. http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electr...tml?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_49641403

Lutz was right. This is a game changer.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3516 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
If you have a problem with fuel costs

Fuel prices, you mean ? That doesn't really cover your costs. 8$ a gallon is the price here currently and while it's not good news life still goes on (meaning most people are currently on a beach and they got there with their car).

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
A report from 15 to 20 years ago mentioned that 90% of France's electricity was generated from nuclear power.

It's 75 to 80%. Then 10% is hydroelectricity, 10% coal/oil/gas (peak power) and the rest is renewable.

But the new socialist president has a long term plan to go down to 50% nuclear by shutting down the oldest plants.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
You aren't getting it. Gas use is down this year, a stable year.

Many factors -- population is urbanizing. Still high unemployment. Moving average 10-year fuel cost is still spiking (this is what informed the existing vehicle fleet). Plus, the newest vehicles are just plain more efficient. So, vehicle miles are not going down so much. Our cars are just getting better all the time. From that alone, our gas burn should continue to fall for the coming decade IMO.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Looks like something you'd win inside of a bubble-gum machine.
Is this where our tax dollars went to?

You've become a bit predictable. If this car had a V18, got 2 MPG and had seats fashioned with Black Rhino skin would you like it better?

Or would you only like it if it were 28 feet long, rear wheel drive and styled in the early 1970's?


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):

Why would anyone buy that instead of a CTS?

Price, think about it like this why would anyone buy a 1 series coupé or a 3 series coupé when (if we followed your theory) they should be buying 6 series coupé.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 48):
Price, think about it like this why would anyone buy a 1 series coupé or a 3 series coupé when (if we followed your theory) they should be buying 6 series coupé.

They'd have to seriously drop the price on the ELR for that to make sense. We'd have to be talking cut in half with the ATS also on the block. Buicks too for that matter.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
They'd have to seriously drop the price on the ELR for that to make sense. We'd have to be talking cut in half with the ATS also on the block.

It would be pretty easy to make a non hybrid version of this car, plus there isn't an ATS coupe. Also BMW doesn't appear to have any problems selling 1, 3 & 6 series coupes, nor Mercedes with C, E & S class coupes, so no reason why Cadillac couldn't do likewise.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 50):
It would be pretty easy to make a non hybrid version of this car, plus there isn't an ATS coupe.

No, there isn't an ATS coupe. (It's worth noting that the ATS sedan is lighter than the Chevy Volt by a several hundred pounds).

I still don't see the virtue of a non-hybrid Cadillac ELR. Take the electric power train out and you're left with the most expensive, ugliest Mini Cooper. Why would someone want that instead of an ATS, a Buick Regal GS, or a Camaro? If you're looking for something to compete with the BMW 1 Series on the street or track it's going to be Mustangs or Camaros rather than any Cadillac that doesn't have V in the name.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
Everybody wants to get off the use of imported oil but the most Democrats & liberals don't believe in the use of domestic oil and gas. That's where the two political views differ the most.


  

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
our fuel consumption is down.


So is people's income.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Recessions have been known to do that. More unemployed people mean less people are driving to/from work.


Exactly. There are fewer jobs to drive to.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 47):
If this car had a V18, got 2 MPG and had seats fashioned with Black Rhino skin would you like it better?


Well of course. That's what luxury brands make. Mercedes and Rolls Royce has large V12 sedans. Cadillac needs to be in that market. As far as this little ELR goes, I'd be ok with it if it were an Oldsmobile. That had been GM's experimental brand.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
I still don't see the virtue of a non-hybrid Cadillac ELR.

  
It's like having a non-hybrid Toyota Prius.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
I still don't see the virtue of a non-hybrid Cadillac ELR. Take the electric power train out and you're left with the most expensive, ugliest Mini Cooper.

Take the electreic power train out and the price would drop considerably, then you have what I think is an attractive cheapish coupe, it should be cheaper than the ATS.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 52):
Mercedes and Rolls Royce has large V12 sedans. Cadillac needs to be in that market.

I very much doubt many if any people would cross shop a Rolls Royce with a Cadillac, may a lower spec S Class but not the V12. The Ciel is a great looking car, especially if they build it as is.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
I very much doubt many if any people would cross shop a Rolls Royce with a Cadillac, may a lower spec S Class but not the V12. The Ciel is a great looking car, especially if they build it as is

Cadillac is the American Mercedes-Benz. If Volkswagen owned the Cadillac brand, they would have a flagship model in the spirit of '50s and '60s (even '30s) Cadillacs. The brand itself can do it. Whether it is managed to its full potential is another thing. With that said, I am _amazed_ by the improvement at GM 2008-2013.

It's actually realistic to talk about GM as a modern, competitive carmaker.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
Cadillac is the American Mercedes-Benz.

Really, quality isn't as good, range isn't as extensive, not the same class of vehicle at all, I don't see many folks shopping for a Mercedes making a detour past the Cadillac dealer for a look, I can't actually think of a European brand I would compare to Cadillac.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
It's actually realistic to talk about GM as a modern, competitive carmaker.

Maybe in the US, but folks outside the US aren't going to be interested. Cadillac doesn't mean anything outside North America.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
Our cars are just getting better all the time. From that alone, our gas burn should continue to fall for the coming decade IMO.

Yes, and I'm sure the automakers did that all on their own due to their care for their customer's wallets, their care for their customer's safety, and their care for the air that their customers breathe - NOT!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 52):
Well of course. That's what luxury brands make. Mercedes and Rolls Royce has large V12 sedans. Cadillac needs to be in that market. As far as this little ELR goes, I'd be ok with it if it were an Oldsmobile. That had been GM's experimental brand.

Olds is dead, for good reason. It may have been a place to try an experiment from time to time, but in recent times it was mainly just another different badge put onto the same old GM dreck.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
Cadillac is the American Mercedes-Benz. If Volkswagen owned the Cadillac brand, they would have a flagship model in the spirit of '50s and '60s (even '30s) Cadillacs. The brand itself can do it. Whether it is managed to its full potential is another thing. With that said, I am _amazed_ by the improvement at GM 2008-2013.

They need to walk before they run.

This means establishing the prestige of the brand first, then putting the cherry on top.

The house is only as strong as the foundation.

Why would you put the big bucks out to buy the penultimate model of a shaky if not shoddy brand?

If they wanted Caddy to be a prestige brand, then indeed they should only be putting it onto high end high quality prestige models, but that's not the approach GM is taking. Indeed they are taking the approach of BMW and Merc to have a full lineup of premium vehicles and build up towards the prestige class, but IMHO it's just not re-established itself well enough yet to justify a true prestige car.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 56):
They need to walk before they run.


???
The brand has been around for 110 years.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 56):
in recent times it was mainly just another different badge put onto the same old GM dreck.


That's GM's fault. They should have kept the brand around and all of these new green-tec experimental models should be their mid-level brands such as Cadillac.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 56):
If they wanted Caddy to be a prestige brand, then indeed they should only be putting it onto high end high quality prestige models, but that's not the approach GM is taking. Indeed they are taking the approach of BMW and Merc to have a full lineup of premium vehicles and build up towards the prestige class, but IMHO it's just not re-established itself well enough yet to justify a true prestige car.



They've been toying around with small cars and other non-luxury vehicles for the past 30 years, starting with the Cimarron. Cadillac has been neglecting their large sedan market to the point that they don't even offer one anymore.
Even their last few years of their last true full-sized luxury sedan - Fleetwood Brougham (which was a phenomenal luxury sedan) had zero marketing. The front-drive DeVille and DTS was a joke compared to the Town Car and other rear-drive luxury cars in that price range. Yes Cadillac has put out some great smaller sedans such as the CTS-V and the STS-V but still no competitor to the S-class, 7-series and XJ.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
If Volkswagen owned the Cadillac brand, they would have a flagship model in the spirit of '50s and '60s (even '30s) Cadillacs.


You raise a good point. Chrysler under the Germans (Mercedes) pumped new life in to the brand with the 300C, Magnum, Charger and Challenger. They pulled Chrysler away from the front-drive cesspool they've been swimming in since the K-car.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
I still don't see the virtue of a non-hybrid Cadillac ELR. Take the electric power train out and you're left with the most expensive, ugliest Mini Cooper. Why would someone want that instead of an ATS, a Buick Regal GS, or a Camaro? If you're looking for something to compete with the BMW 1 Series on the street or track it's going to be Mustangs or Camaros rather than any Cadillac that doesn't have V in the name.

What makes you believe this car has anything to do with the BMW 1 series? Or a Mini Cooper? Or Mustangs and Camaros?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 57):
The brand has been around for 110 years.

Right, but as you point out, it's been putting out some pretty mediocre stuff (or worse) for the last few decades.

I've seen the Caddys of the 30-70s and think they're very impressive but that's all history now.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 57):
That's GM's fault. They should have kept the brand around and all of these new green-tec experimental models should be their mid-level brands such as Cadillac.

I doubt many would agree that the Olds brand was worth saving.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 58):
What makes you believe this car has anything to do with the BMW 1 series? Or a Mini Cooper? Or Mustangs and Camaros?

I think he was saying that if it had a gasoline engine, it'd be competing against those models, and quite possibly losing.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
Right, but as you point out, it's been putting out some pretty mediocre stuff (or worse) for the last few decades.

I've seen the Caddys of the 30-70s and think they're very impressive but that's all history now.



That is true but the name 'Cadillac' still conjures up luxury automotive brand and they can easily win the luxury car market back by making luxury cars again. It would be an easy sale for them. As you noted about the 'foundation' of this brand, they have the bottem end covered. The CTS is a good selling vehicle. They don't need another small car, nor should they be chasing those looking for Honda Civics. They need to be in the higher end luxury car market where they belong.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
I doubt many would agree that the Olds brand was worth saving.


It would have been worth saving to make these government mandated experimental vehicles instead of dragging Cadillac in to it.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 60):
That is true but the name 'Cadillac' still conjures up luxury automotive brand and they can easily win the luxury car market back by making luxury cars again. It would be an easy sale for them. As you noted about the 'foundation' of this brand, they have the bottem end covered. The CTS is a good selling vehicle. They don't need another small car, nor should they be chasing those looking for Honda Civics. They need to be in the higher end luxury car market where they belong.

It conjures up a lot, as you say above, Cimarron, the 4/8 engine that never worked, Escalade, etc.

We both have no way of knowing who's right till they try what you suggest, but I have a hard time thinking it'd be an "easy sale" for them. I think it'd be a costly development with lots of down-side risk. You can say the same about ELR too, but one thing that can be said is it'd bring in a new set of customers that currently don't look at Caddys.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 60):
It would have been worth saving to make these government mandated experimental vehicles instead of dragging Cadillac in to it.

Personally I feel an all-new nameplate would be better off than using Olds. Olds just reeks of rebadged Chevy Citations driven by blue-haired ladies to me.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

The first one was alright but this:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):

Is probably the ugliest car I have ever laid my eyes upon. There is absolutely no point in making it a hybrid, it's not going to achieve anything, it'll still drink fuel quicker than a 707.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
We both have no way of knowing who's right till they try what you suggest, but I have a hard time thinking it'd be an "easy sale" for them.

It would be much easier for Cadillac to sale a $80,000 car than Honda or Ford.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 62):
There is absolutely no point in making it a hybrid, it's not going to achieve anything, it'll still drink fuel quicker than a 707.

It's not a hybrid, it's an electric car with on-board generator. The gasoline engine never turns the wheels, it just charges the battery. The rest of your post is just as inaccurate.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
It's not a hybrid, it's an electric car with on-board generator. The gasoline engine never turns the wheels, it just charges the battery. The rest of your post is just as inaccurate.

I think the Volt engine does help turn the wheels under some circumstances when the battery is depleted. GM spoke of another set of gears that sits right/rear of the engine for engaging the driveshaft. This impressed the auto engineer types.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7519 posts, RR: 24
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
Voltec technology has so far allowed Volt owners to drive 77 million all-electric miles, saving 4 million gallons of gasoline (not sure how they got that), as of today. http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electr...tml?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_49641403

Lutz was right. This is a game changer.

If you feel that strongly about the Volt; go knock yourself out and buy one. With the 2013 models coming out (if they haven't rolled out already); you might be able to get a good deal on a 2012 left-over.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
I doubt many would agree that the Olds brand was worth saving.

Once upon a time, the best-selling (and most stolen) car in the U.S. for several years was indeed an Oldsmobile (Cutlass Supreme). It was after GM cancelled the RWD G-body after 1988 that the brand started going south. The 1st-generation Aurora sedan revived the brand somewhat during the mid-90s.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
Personally I feel an all-new nameplate would be better off than using Olds.

GM could have used the newer Saturn brand for such experimentation. After all, the brand was marketed as "a different kind of company for a different kind of car".



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
It's not a hybrid, it's an electric car with on-board generator. The gasoline engine never turns the wheels, it just charges the battery.

Fine, be pedantic if you wish. It may not be a hybrid in the traditional sense, but it still relies upon a petrol engine. More to the point its a 425hp, V6 engine. It is an inexcusably pointless car.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
The rest of your post is just as inaccurate.

It doesn't use fuel as quickly as a 50 year old jet aircraft! Well, you learn something new every day...


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 66):
Once upon a time, the best-selling (and most stolen) car in the U.S. for several years was indeed an Oldsmobile (Cutlass Supreme).

It's still one of the most stolen cars today in the ghetto.
The street thugs especially love the 1982-1988 coupe versions.
I like the car too but would probably never buy one because of the risk associated with owning one. You're best carring a gun if you own one and driving through a rough part of town.
Still are great cars. Big car comfort with soft supsension in a very nimble, compact size car that's still body on frame, V8, rear-drive and very durable. Great getaway cars too!  


Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
Olds just reeks of rebadged Chevy Citations driven by blue-haired ladies to me.

Most punk rock girls with blue hair ride a skateboard or ride the bus.

[Edited 2012-08-22 22:45:32 by SA7700]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Last time I checked , it was the liberals that are presently protesting fracking (for natural gas) in Pennsylvania (a state where I reside BTW).

I thought it was the property owners that were protesting having their livestock's water supply contaminated and wanting suitable protections in place to protect against this? I think property ownership is a conservative thing as well. I also know that it was Red blooded property owners that were protesting the alignment of the Keystone pipeline across their property and watersheds. It was the company (a foreign company at that) that decided to bring politics into it when they attempted to run roughshod over the property owners property rights and push it though with legislation. Isn't that what you accuse "liberals" of doing?


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
fuel costs

We do not actually know the true cost of the fuel we use. There is a lot of subsidies, tax breaks, and costs that are not accounted for in the production of fuel, from its source to it's final refined state. I know it is an old trope but it is true, imagine of the costs for protecting the oil in the Gulf were factored into the cost at the pump?


Quoting U2380 (Reply 67):
Fine, be pedantic if you wish. It may not be a hybrid in the traditional sense, but it still relies upon a petrol engine. More to the point its a 425hp, V6 engine.

Where on earth are you getting your info? The OP notes:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
the car will have a 4 cylinder generator.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-22 10:33:56]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 70):
imagine of the costs for protecting the oil in the Gulf were factored into the cost at the pump?


Ask the countries that use that gas.
Most of the gas consumed in North America comes from Canada, the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 72):
Most of the gas consumed in North America comes from Canada, the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

Come on fly. I understand your republican values, but please don't embarrass all republicans with these tired and mythical arguments. Outside of nationalizing the oil fields of Canada, the Gulf and Venezuela, we will always be beholden to world market prices and squeezes. If you think not, why are we paying more right now for Persian Gulf tensions?


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 72):
Ask the countries that use that gas.
Most of the gas consumed in North America comes from Canada, the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

I hope you understand that the world market is a common market for oil and that all oil use is reflected in the pricing for all oil produced in the world (there is some "blackmarket" oil such as Iran's but it isn't significant). It is what is known as a fungible asset.

There is some pricing difference due to ease of getting to the greater market, hence why WTI is generally lower in cost than Brent. While lower, its prices are directly influenced and controlled by the world market prices. The WTI is lower due to the glut of oil that gets "stuck" in Cushing OK. That is why TransCanada wants to get Keystone pipeline to run to the Gulf of Mexico, so they can get higher prices for the oil they produce (which interestingly enough will mean overall higher prices for the USA as there won't be a glut at Cushing).

By the way, an interesting result of the lower gasoline consumption in the USA has meant that the excess capacity at the refineries is available for refined gas to be sold to the world market. The USA is currently a net exporter of gasoline. So the less gas we use the more we can export, an export where we take a lower cost "raw material" refine it and "add value" and then sell it at a profit to the world market.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-22 11:23:09]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 57):

The brand has been around for 110 years.

And for the last 50 it's been asleep.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 57):

They've been toying around with small cars and other non-luxury vehicles for the past 30 years

The problem is they based them on cheap budget vehicles, and they looked like it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
I think he was saying that if it had a gasoline engine, it'd be competing against those models, and quite possibly losing.

Those cars are sell on looks/image first, driving pleasure isn't the main selling point with most owners style is, this small Caddy looks good, without the hybrid crap it would probably be able to be sold at a nice price.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 72):

Ask the countries that use that gas.
Most of the gas consumed in North America comes from Canada, the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

That would be the US, about 20% of your gas comes from the Gulf States, it also increased last year over 2010 and looks like it's increasing again this year.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 73):
I understand your republican values



Huh?
I'm still a Democrat.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 73):
If you think not, why are we paying more right now for Persian Gulf tensions?


Why are we paying for Muslim Brotherhood tensions?

Quoting tugger (Reply 74):
I hope you understand that the world market is a common market for oil and that....


You forgot the usual "it's all America's fault" tagline.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 76):
You forgot the usual "it's all America's fault" tagline.

Why is it "America's fault"? Your statement doesn't make sense.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
Why is it "America's fault"?

That kind of language is usually laced with some sort of America bashing along with it.

[Edited 2012-08-22 11:38:11]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 75):
That would be the US, about 20% of your gas comes from the Gulf States, it also increased last year over 2010 and looks like it's increasing again this year.

I was just reading yesterday that they thought they could eliminate the use of all mid east oil fairly quickly, but point taken. Also factor in OPEC's influence on Venezuela. Not that Hugo is not in need of our oil money to stay propped up.


Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
That kind of language is usually laceed with some sort of America bashing along with it.

Huh? It's just a fact. Do you have another economic solution to the perils of a world oil market?

[Edited 2012-08-22 22:39:23 by SA7700]

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
That kind of language is usually laced with some sort of America bashing along with it.

OK, so yo are saying that you are not bashing the USA but instead that I am? How on earth does:

Quoting tugger (Reply 74):
I hope you understand that the world market is a common market for oil

equate to any kind of America bashing?

It's a simple fact, the market for oil is a global market which dictates its pricing.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
Take the electreic power train out and the price would drop considerably, then you have what I think is an attractive cheapish coupe, it should be cheaper than the ATS.

Cheaper than the ATS would put it in the high 20s, so right on top of the Camaro, but on an econobox platform with less performance. Or if luxury is more your thing there's the Buick Regal. Basically you'd have to really, really like how the ELR looks to buy a non-electric one.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 58):
What makes you believe this car has anything to do with the BMW 1 series? Or a Mini Cooper? Or Mustangs and Camaros?

It doesn't. But it could.

Assuming that gasoline costs $4 per gallon and you can find an especially generous dealer that lets you drive off in an ELR for $50k, here's how some others stack up. The same money could buy a $45k CTS and some 20,000 miles of gas. Spring for a Chevy Camaro and you get to choose between a $36k SS and $25k V6 versions. The price difference is worth 49,000 miles of driving fun in the SS or upwards of 130,000 miles in the V6. One might want to give up a bit of that and pay a bit extra for a rag top instead.

Or for a more European flavor, a $40,000 BMW 128i leaves enough change for 52,500 miles of fuel. Or you can go wild at the Mini dealer and spring for a top of the line John Cooper Works car that runs about $38k and cruise around for about 80,000 miles before spending as much as the ELR costs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 81):
It's a simple fact, the market for oil is a global market which dictates its pricing.


True but somehow people love to say the US are the bad guys for using oil...blah...blah.....blah.
I'm sure you've heard it million times too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
an especially generous dealer that lets you drive off in an ELR for $50k,


I think a lobotomy is an order for the buyer.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
here's how some others stack up. The same money could buy a $45k CTS and some 20,000 miles of gas. Spring for a Chevy Camaro and you get to choose between a $36k SS and $25k V6 versions. The price difference is worth 49,000 miles of driving fun in the SS or upwards of 130,000 miles in the V6. One might want to give up a bit of that and pay a bit extra for a rag top instead.



  
You're thinking like a smart consumer that wants bang for the buck.
With $50K to spend on a car, I'd keep my eyes open for a low miles Cadillac STS-V.
Bigger an more luxurious than the STS, yet still has the power of the V-series.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):

A V8 May be available but I suspect the "hybrid gimmick" version will begin to outsell them enormously as the electric performance can blow a gasoline version out of the water. Just give it time.

It already does in a lot of ways. Whenever I drive a normal car with just an engine and no electric motor, I am always disappointed by the lag time between stepping on the accelerator and the car actually starting to accelerate. In the Prius (or any hybrid) the response is instant.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
Everybody wants to get off the use of imported oil but the most Democrats & liberals don't believe in the use of domestic oil and gas. That's where the two political views differ the most.

Because even the petroleum companies will tell you that we simply don't have enough domestic capacity to stop all imports. Even if we started drilling everywhere tomorrow and had all the wells at full production the next day we would still be reliant on foreign oil. Furthermore, gasoline prices are not simply a matter of supply and demand. So even flooding the market with oil does not lower the price of gasoline at the pump.

So that is not a viable solution. Furthermore, customers do not want to dump money into gas pumps, so there is also a FREE-MARKET (yes, there's that word) force that is driving development of electric and hybrid vehicles.

The big barrier to electric vehicles is range, which is easily dealt with by putting a generator on-board. Also, more and more gas stations will be installing high-voltage charging stations that can charge an electric vehicle in as little as 15 minutes. That will also drive the technology.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
Assuming that gasoline costs $4 per gallon and you can find an especially generous dealer that lets you drive off in an ELR for $50k, here's how some others stack up. The same money could buy a $45k CTS and some 20,000 miles of gas.

So you are saying that for an equivalent car, your fuel costs significantly decrease (Yes, I know it's not without cost, the costs of electricity to charge it, etc.) after a few years? That's not a bad situation at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 84):
The big barrier to electric vehicles is range, which is easily dealt with by putting a generator on-board. Also, more and more gas stations will be installing high-voltage charging stations that can charge an electric vehicle in as little as 15 minutes. That will also drive the technology.

You know I have to laugh at the arguments that many use here against electric drive now being instituted in cars. I am positive there were arguments just like this in the past when people were moving from horses to cars. I mean think of it, the cars had no decent range,they broke down a lot (even caught fire!), there was no infrastructure in place to fill them up, the refined fuel was fairly poor quality, the roads were in poor condition and weren't built out extensively. Meanwhile a horse was inexpensive, relatively low cost to keep and care for, could be fed in many places, and could go most anywhere. I mean why would anyone change?

Oh wait, they didn't "just change", the changeover occurred slowly over many years as car improved and infrastructure was added. Just like this will occur (though at a faster rate as the overall technology is not significantly different). But I guarantee you a bunch of horse owners and lovers argued how stupid and what a waste cars were.

I think the "electric w/generator" is a very good mid-step during the transition. It allows one to take full advantage of the installed infrastructure while at the same time allowing continued development and improvement of the electric technology and infrastructure.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-22 13:07:02]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 70):
Where on earth are you getting your info? The OP notes:

I was referencing the car in post 6.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 71):
Not really, you can run it 100% off the batteries, something impossible with hybrids, till the 'plug-in hybrid' was offered.

Fine. This is a waste of my time, the car is neither fully electric nor is it an exclusively powered by an ICE. If it's not a hybrid then where does that leave it?


Quoting Revelation (Reply 71):
I've learned a lot about you today, none of it good.

 


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 86):
I was referencing the car in post 6.

Ahh! Gotcha!

Quoting U2380 (Reply 86):
Fine. This is a waste of my time, the car is neither fully electric nor is it an exclusively powered by an ICE. If it's not a hybrid then where does that leave it?

It actually makes perfect sense, as I mentioned in my post before yours (which I realize I edited while you were posting), an electric system with a generator is an excellent mid-step. It lets the electric do the primary job but takes advantage of the installed infrastructure. I mean electric w/generator is used everywhere in industry, almost any company where ensured power is required, a back up generator is part of the power solution.

Why would it not work here as well?

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-22 13:16:47]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
Cheaper than the ATS would put it in the high 20s, so right on top of the Camaro, but on an econobox platform with less performance.

So what, lots of people don't want Camaro's, people buy MINI's which cost more than Camaro's, it's a different buyer and a different market. As I said it's not just performance which drives people to purchase cars like the Citroen DS3, MINI, Opel Adam, it's image.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
Basically you'd have to really, really like how the ELR looks to buy a non-electric one.

I think the ELR is the best looking car GM (the US part) has ever shown. I would look at a non hybrid ELR if it was sold in Norway. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this.


User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
It actually makes perfect sense, as I mentioned in my post before yours (which I realize I edited while you were posting), an electric system with a generator is an excellent mid-step. It lets the electric do the primary job but takes advantage of the installed infrastructure. I mean electric w/generator is used everywhere in industry, almost any company where ensured power is required, a back up generator is part of the power solution.

Why would it not work here as well?

Don't get me wrong, the technology itself is very useful on a smaller, less powerful car. In fact even in the ELR from the opening post it makes (more) sense.

I am questioning why it is necessary on such a large car which needs a large and relatively thirsty engine even with the electric system. It just seems to be counterintuitive and unnecessary. Well to me at least.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 89):
I am questioning why it is necessary on such a large car which needs a large and relatively thirsty engine even with the electric system. It just seems to be counterintuitive and unnecessary. Well to me at least.
OK, and again I missed that you were referring to the car in post 6, my bad, sorry.

I guess my answer would be that it all depends on what the car is attempting to do and be. If it is to be a "luxury performance" car then they need to give it the capabilities that the buyers of such a car want and would expect. Looking into the car the first thing I noticed is the horsepower being specified is the combined power of both the engine and the electric drive train:

Quote:
Power comes from a twin-turbocharged 3.6-liter V6 and an electric motor, with a combined output of 425 horsepower.

Second as I looked further the enigne is a new one beign deveolped at GM that is targeted to get 30 mpg or so. So it is already substantially higher mileage than any other car like it. Throw in the electric drive-train's ability to "instantly" accelerate and could have a very healthy performance capability and one that a performance luxury car owner would expect/demand. It is also likely quieter than most any other car at cruise, another demand for luxury (though some want some type of background "growl" which the engine could legitimately provide , instead of doing what BMW is doing and piping in "motor sounds").

Additionally I suspect that the owner won't have to do anything special to keep it "charged up", they could just gas it up and run. Or they could also charge it at home. If there is anything a luxury car owner doesn't want, it's to be inconvenienced by their car.

Remember the larger market of performance luxury cars owners don't really care about "how" it is done, only as long as it is "done" to their satisfaction. It first has to be a great car and one that is desirable.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-22 14:49:13]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3190 times:

I did a quick search, and as you would expect for a concept car that will likely never be produced, there is not much information about the Ciel powertrain. A powerful gas engine clearly suggest an "old school" hybrid like U2380 is talking about, which is, will be, and has always been, pointless on a big car/truck, you get far better fuel economy with a diesel engine. To make a big "electric with generator" car, you would first need an enormous amount of batteries, costing a crazy amount of money. Then you would still not need a very big gas engine, because when cruising you don't need that much power, so big batteries and a powerful electric engine are enough to accelerate when needed.

The only reason to use a big gas engine with an "electric with generator" vehicle would be to directly provide electric power at all times, like with diesel electric trains and vessels, but that wouldn't make any sense in a car.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3171 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
You're thinking like a smart consumer that wants bang for the buck.

It depends on what bang is.

If you're looking for a well equipped smallish car with low costs of ownership, the ELR would probably be a poor choice. If you're interested in driving fun as well then it's probably an exceptionally poor choice. But if you want to be the first on the block to drive an electric car and be on the front end of the trend while helping the environment or at least feeling like they're helping the environment, you'll put up with the downsides just like Volt owners.

There's a reason why the median income of Volt owners is as high as it is. Those people are alpha consumers who are the first to buy and the first to try. Such people like trends and being ahead of them, plus they likely already have a second car so the downsides don't bother them much. If the next big thing isn't quite ready for prime time, it doesn't bother them much.

Quoting tugger (Reply 85):
So you are saying that for an equivalent car, your fuel costs significantly decrease (Yes, I know it's not without cost, the costs of electricity to charge it, etc.) after a few years? That's not a bad situation at all.

It could be depending on how many years it takes and how long you keep your cars. It's a common affliction of hybrids and even diesels: it just takes too long for them to get into the black from a cost standpoint. The Volt/ELR probably gets this a bit worse, since if you drive a lot you'll derive less benefit from the plug in aspect.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 88):
I think the ELR is the best looking car GM (the US part) has ever shown.

You must have missed the Ciel. The ELR looks like someone hacked a Batmobile out of a Civic.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 89):

I am questioning why it is necessary on such a large car which needs a large and relatively thirsty engine even with the electric system. It just seems to be counterintuitive and unnecessary. Well to me at least.

It needs a much less thirsty engine with the hybrid drive. The size of an engine in a conventional car is determined by the maximum power and torque required, which is typically starting from a standstill.

A hybrid drive means that the engine can store energy in the battery for use by the electric engine during those periods of high demand. Also, electric motors have good torque from a stop, while engines do not. Because of this, the engine can be made MUCH smaller. That means that the engine can be run at a higher percentage of its output when it is running (which is more thermodynamically efficient) and it can be shut off when not in use.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
If you're looking for a well equipped smallish car with low costs of ownership, the ELR would probably be a poor choice. If you're interested in driving fun as well then it's probably an exceptionally poor choice.

The main cost of car ownership is gasoline. And I guarantee you that an electric motor will give you more kick than a gasoline engine. It will give you that kick a lot faster after you step down on the gas, too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
It could be depending on how many years it takes and how long you keep your cars. It's a common affliction of hybrids and even diesels: it just takes too long for them to get into the black from a cost standpoint. The Volt/ELR probably gets this a bit worse, since if you drive a lot you'll derive less benefit from the plug in aspect.

I get about 45MPG on my prius and I have a 50 mile commute each way. My car has more than paid for the difference in price over a similar sized conventional car by this time (three years). I barely notice changes in gas prices.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 93):
It needs a much less thirsty engine with the hybrid drive. The size of an engine in a conventional car is determined by the maximum power and torque required, which is typically starting from a standstill.

A hybrid drive means that the engine can store energy in the battery for use by the electric engine during those periods of high demand. Also, electric motors have good torque from a stop, while engines do not. Because of this, the engine can be made MUCH smaller. That means that the engine can be run at a higher percentage of its output when it is running (which is more thermodynamically efficient) and it can be shut off when not in use.

I know you are saying this but just to reiterate:

Probably the biggest benefit of a "electric drive w/generator" is that the ICE only has to run as needed and when it does run, it can run at its highest efficiency. It could even run quietly while the car is parked (outside). I would also think that you could also then allow for alternate fuels if desired by just dropping in a different generator, propane being an easy and obvious choice (which means it could also charge while in your garage) but natural gas could be another option.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
If you're interested in driving fun as well then it's probably an exceptionally poor choice

Careful. Porsche has a hybrid version of the Panamera that features very good handling (as good as other models of the Panamera) and the Fisker Karma also has surprisely good handling for a car its size. The ELR will feature lots of light but high strength steel, and the torque available from the electric engine is very good, and nearly instantly available.

Will it go 155 mph on the Autobahn - no. Will it be fun to toss around on Mulholland Drive - probably. Will the ELR be as much fun on Mulholland Drive as the absolutely excellent new Cadillac ATS turbocharged sedan - we shall see.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 95):
Careful. Porsche has a hybrid version of the Panamera that features very good handling (as good as other models of the Panamera) and the Fisker Karma also has surprisely good handling for a car its size.

I was talking specifically about the ELR. A mild hybrid makes sense in some cases because you can probably do it about the same weight as a normal AWD system. It's carrying around basically two full propulsion systems and a bunch of batteries that causes problems. That's why the Fisker Karma weighs 5,300 lbs.

Building a fun electric car isn't that hard, people have done it before. The trick is keeping it fun when you hit a corner (the Panamera hybrid is about 350 lbs. heavier than the all wheel drive V6 version and about 400 heavier than the V8 powered S version. And making an electric car that runs far enough, unlike my old RC car.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
If you're interested in driving fun as well then it's probably an exceptionally poor choice. But if you want to be the first on the block to drive an electric car and be on the front end of the trend while helping the environment or at least feeling like they're helping the environment, you'll put up with the downsides just like Volt owners.

There's a reason why the median income of Volt owners is as high as it is. Those people are alpha consumers who are the first to buy and the first to try. Such people like trends and being ahead of them, plus they likely already have a second car so the downsides don't bother them much. If the next big thing isn't quite ready for prime time, it doesn't bother them much.

What are these "downsides" you keep mentioning? And how exactly do you know it will not be fun to drive? Do you have any idea what instant torque feels like?

I am not a huge Caddy fan but I have no doubt a division that gives us a 650 hp 6 speed station wagon will make its luxury-sport coupe very quick.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 97):
What are these "downsides" you keep mentioning?

A compact car that weighs 3,700 lbs, has a 9 second 0-60 time, and a $40k price tag.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 97):
And how exactly do you know it will not be fun to drive?

Well, it's a $60,000 car. So, to look at it in that context it doesn't just have to be fun. It would have to be fun like a Porsche Cayman or Mercedes SLK.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 97):
Do you have any idea what instant torque feels like?

Yep.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 94):
Probably the biggest benefit of a "electric drive w/generator" is that the ICE only has to run as needed and when it does run, it can run at its highest efficiency

The only problem is, at least with the Volt, that it doesn't translate into good gasoline only fuel efficiency. I still can't believe that they used an obsolete engine in a technology demonstrator. Fortunately, it looks like it won't be a problem with the ELR. However, GM should consider upgrading the Volt as well.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 97, posted (2 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
A compact car that weighs 3,700 lbs, has a 9 second 0-60 time, and a $40k price tag.

Marco Andretti, after getting 47 electric miles in a Volt, “This is the future," he said. "This car's performance isn't measured by horsepower, but it is so smooth and has so much torque at the bottom that it really accelerates. I am looking forward to this in my racing future." http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-volt...-woodward-dream-cruise-123940.html

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 99):
The only problem is, at least with the Volt, that it doesn't translate into good gasoline only fuel efficiency.

We've come a long way when we complain about 37 mpg.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 100):
“This is the future,"

Future. As in later but not now.

I don't care how clean it is, I really have no interest in anything that will lose a drag race with a Honda Fit.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 99, posted (2 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 100):
“This is the future,"

Future. As in later but not now.

I don't care how clean it is, I really have no interest in anything that will lose a drag race with a Honda Fit.

So you don't support the original development of the car? I mean, as I noted in my earlier post, the car when it was first introduced was terrible when compared to modern day versions. A horse would beat them in races and a horse would go farther and outlast any car. It took years and years to become what it is. But the electric based vehicles are a much smaller leap and use most of same technology so the transition will be faster, better, and easier.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 96):
I was talking specifically about the ELR. A mild hybrid makes sense in some cases because you can probably do it about the same weight as a normal AWD system. It's carrying around basically two full propulsion systems and a bunch of batteries that causes problems. That's why the Fisker Karma weighs 5,300 lbs.

What battery problems? My Prius has 103,000 miles on it and the battery is fine. When it does go, it'll be $600 to replace.

Surely GE has a product that's at least that good.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
Future. As in later but not now.

How we gonna get there?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
A compact car that weighs 3,700 lbs, has a 9 second 0-60 time, and a $40k price tag.

Where do you get the curb weight and pickup time?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 100):
We've come a long way when we complain about 37 mpg.

Finally, all this engineering is rolling out. Quite amazing to see these 30% gains in mileage. Everything is being baked in. Ford's upcoming 1 liter 3 cylinder is supposed to be good enough for a lot of people...


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 102):
So you don't support the original development of the car?

Not on the government dime unless the government plans on using them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 103):
What battery problems?

High weight and too long charging times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 103):
How we gonna get there?

Private investment in developing the technology.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 103):
Where do you get the curb weight and pickup time?

Google. This stuff isn't secret.  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Not on the government dime unless the government plans on using them.

The government was heavily involved in the early development. How do you think roads got done? How do you think the fuel was developed and standardized? Government involvement was also on the side of engine development for military applications. It also set policies that protected the industry and encouraged it development and growth.

Government was involved all over the place, just like it was involved in the development of the railroad earlier in the country's history. Or its current involvement in the aerospace sector. The simple fact is the industrial development is something that every government in the world is in someway interested in and assists.

Why on earth do you think the government was not involved?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 104, posted (2 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 89):
if you want to be the first on the block to drive an electric car and be on the front end of the trend while helping the environment or at least feeling like they're helping the environment, you'll put up with the downsides just like Volt owners.

Reminds me of this photo.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 89):
There's a reason why the median income of Volt owners is as high as it is. Those people are alpha consumers who are the first to buy and the first to try. Such people like trends and being ahead of them, plus they likely already have a second car so the downsides don't bother them much. If the next big thing isn't quite ready for prime time, it doesn't bother them much.

Sounds like we're subsidizing the rich and supporting their lavish spending habits.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 105, posted (2 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 97):
We've come a long way when we complain about 37 mpg.



We undoubtedly did. However, we have to realize what we are talking about. At the Volt's price tag one would expect a vehicle that beats everything around. And yet the much cheaper Prius cleanly beats it in fuel economy. The difference in the city value is incredible. Considering that the Prius is now available in plug-in version as well, it may seem that it only needs a larger battery pack to eat the Volt's lunch. And dinner too. And by the way, did I mention that the Prius runs on regular fuel?

Let me go back to the fuel economy. 37 mpg average may seem incredible. But, in the past, that was the number I was used to. I was used to it as a average, everyday's value, not some number generated on a track. Yes, it was a smaller car than the Volt (but not that much smaller), without 375 airbags so it was lighter too and it had a small, 85 hp engine. But I drove it way faster than we drive around here, with no divided highways and I used to tow a 1000 lbs trailer regularly. So, If I think about it, the Volt's 37 mpg average doesn't seem stellar at all.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 106, posted (2 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 105):
At the Volt's price tag one would expect a vehicle that beats everything around. And yet the much cheaper Prius cleanly beats it in fuel economy.

I too feel that the Caddy needs to be better to justify its price (at least to me), but I'd also point out that the Prius buyer and the Caddy buyer are in two different market segments. Caddy is trying to open a luxury market for electric cars, kind of like how the Escalade opened up a luxury market for large SUVs. The Escalade sold, even though you there were many other SUVs that were both better and cheaper. Even better for GM, they brought in a lot of money, and they brought in a lot of new customers to the brand. I'm not at all convinced that this car will do the same, but then again I thought the Escalade was a dumb idea!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 107, posted (2 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 104):
Reminds me of this photo.

Yep, them gas fueled things is so safe, they never catch fire!

Funnily enough that garage was burning due to a gas ignited/fueled fire.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 108, posted (2 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Paris is deploying "AutoLib", thousands of public electric cars, available for occaisional users at a nominal cost to encourage city dwellers who only make occaision car trips to avoid car ownership.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/bu...term-rentals-of-electric-cars.html

3000 cars and 1000 charging stations by the end of 2012.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 109, posted (2 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 105):
We undoubtedly did. However, we have to realize what we are talking about. At the Volt's price tag one would expect a vehicle that beats everything around. And yet the much cheaper Prius cleanly beats it in fuel economy.

It did (at the time) and yet it didn't. At the time, there wasn't a plug-in Prius. Remember, for the first 45 or so miles, the volt had infinite gas mileage because it didn't use any. I am not sure how the plug-in Prius compares now, but I'm guessing that it's better.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 108):

Paris is deploying "AutoLib", thousands of public electric cars, available for occaisional users at a nominal cost to encourage city dwellers who only make occaision car trips to avoid car ownership.

Yes, but France is a socialist dictatorship and we don't want to be anything like them.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):
Private investment in developing the technology.

Sounds to me like that's what's happening. The government is encouraging it. No problem with that.

Still not able to find detailed performance specs on the vehicle.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 110, posted (2 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 105):
We undoubtedly did. However, we have to realize what we are talking about. At the Volt's price tag one would expect a vehicle that beats everything around. And yet the much cheaper Prius cleanly beats it in fuel economy. The difference in the city value is incredible. Considering that the Prius is now available in plug-in version as well, it may seem that it only needs a larger battery pack to eat the Volt's lunch. And dinner too. And by the way, did I mention that the Prius runs on regular fuel?

I don't understand why critics insist on comparing the Volt to cheaper, lessor cars. The Volt, by all indications (including owners of both) is a magnitude better car than the Prius in most every way, except that gas only mileage, yet on the other hand, it has the potential to trounce the Prius in fuel costs with very little effort of the consumer.

And BTW, the Prius city figures include electric assist, so that is not a 'gas only' figure.

The new Ford C Max hybrid gets 47 city, 47 highway. What will critics complain about when the C Max plugin arrives in November?


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 111, posted (2 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
I am not sure how the plug-in Prius compares now, but I'm guessing that it's better.

Not better - different. Electric only range of ~13 miles.

[Edited 2012-08-23 10:41:37]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 112, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
The new Ford C Max hybrid gets 47 city, 47 highway. What will critics complain about when the C Max plugin arrives in November?

It's this weird, American concept of masculinity which would never countenance such things as driving an electric vehicle.

My guess is that BMI727 has never sat in the driver's seat of a car with an electric motor. Nor has Fly.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 113, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
never sat in the driver's seat of a car with an electric motor. Nor has Fly.

Umm, I was in the driver's seat of an electric motorized chair several weeks ago. It was in my trip report to Taiwan.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/TaipeiTaiwan176-1.jpg


Typhoon Saola On China Airlines 747 Bangkok-Taiwan (by Superfly Aug 3 2012 in Trip Reports)

I was the dominant one all throughout the exercise.
I just didn't want to break any of the forum rules.  
Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
The new Ford C Max hybrid gets 47 city, 47 highway. What will critics complain about when the C Max plugin arrives in November?

My 1981 Volkswagen Rabbit diesel got 50MPG.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 114, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 113):
My 1981 Volkswagen Rabbit diesel got 50MPG.

How was it's acceleration? How was it to start? How comfortable and quiet was it? Did it have the same amount of room? Did it have all the luxury amenities that are now considered almost required? Are there any trade offs or is this supposed to be a direct comparison?

Not trying to be picky but seriously, when comparisons like this are thrown out without any context it is just ridiculous. I mean, I love ya Supe, respect your contributions and that you tell it how you see it. but I gotta call ya on stuff like this.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-23 11:48:03]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (2 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 108):

Paris is deploying "AutoLib", thousands of public electric cars, available for occaisional users at a nominal cost to encourage city dwellers who only make occaision car trips to avoid car ownership.

BMW has 70 ActiveEs for short term rents in San Francisco.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/08/bmw-parknow/


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 116, posted (2 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 114):
How was it's acceleration? How was it to start? How comfortable and quiet was it? Did it have the same amount of room? Did it have all the luxury amenities that are now considered almost required? Are there any trade offs or is this supposed to be a direct comparison?

Not trying to be picky but seriously, when comparisons like this are thrown out without any context it is just ridiculous. I mean, I love ya Supe, respect your contributions and that you tell it how you see it. but I gotta call ya on stuff like this.

It had style.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 117, posted (2 years 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 103):
The government was heavily involved in the early development. How do you think roads got done?

Infrastructure is different because that's one of those things the government has to do. That's fine. What bothers me is the government using their money to pick horses in the race and try to tell me what should be in my driveway.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
Sounds to me like that's what's happening. The government is encouraging it.

The encouragement needs to come from the market, not the government.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
Still not able to find detailed performance specs on the vehicle.

Half the magazines and blogs on the planet have tested the Volt. Google isn't hard.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
My guess is that BMI727 has never sat in the driver's seat of a car with an electric motor.

Nope, but I would if there was one worth sitting in. But as of now electric cars are basically one or more of the following: slow, heavy, short ranged, or long charging times. And since I don't care about the environment, I'm not willing to make any of those trade offs for an electric car.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 118, posted (2 years 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):

My guess is that BMI727 has never sat in the driver's seat of a car with an electric motor.

BMI727 has never even driven a manual  


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 119, posted (2 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
Remember, for the first 45 or so miles, the volt had infinite gas mileage because it didn't use any.

Doc, you know very well that electric power doesn't fall from the sky...it has to be generated and in case of the USA, 80% of it comes from fossil fuels. So the only advantage is the lower price per energy unit for the Volt owner. For now.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
The Volt, by all indications (including owners of both) is a magnitude better car than the Prius in most every way, except that gas only mileage, yet on the other hand, it has the potential to trounce the Prius in fuel costs with very little effort of the consumer.

Magnitudes better? By what measure? Performance? Handling? Payload? Because not by fuel (or better said, energetic) efficiency. According to fueleconomy.gov, the "model" owner of the Volt spends yearly $100 less on fuel and electric power than the "model" owner of the Prius. It means that he can recoup the difference in list prices in no time - 100 to 150 years, depending on the Prius' model. Of course, the real situation may vary depending on everyone's situation, but the comparison doesn't look good for the Volt. Not by a wide margin. And that was a comparison with the non-plug in Prius.
One more word about criticizing - I'm criticizing the Volt as a lost chance. GM had better gasoline engines already available. A small Turbo DI engine could make all the difference.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
The new Ford C Max hybrid gets 47 city, 47 highway. What will critics complain about when the C Max plugin arrives in November?

I will personally complain only about one thing - it is the preparedness (or rather lack of thereof) of the North American power grid to plug-in hybrid owners charging their cars any time of the day. I guess I better start looking for some good power generator to bridge the blackouts. Otherwise I have nothing to complain about. I wouldn't buy it however - I don't need a small MPV and if I buy a car with less than 3 pedals, it will be a pure electric car.

Quoting tugger (Reply 114):
How was it's acceleration?

Well, I don't know the acceleration, but I have an example where the acceleration was rather good: The car was a '98 Skoda Octavia TDi PD 81 kW, traveling from Trebisov, Slovakia to Humenne, Slovakia mostly on narrow and winding side roads. According to the board computer, the average speed was 96 km/h (60 mph) and the fuel consumption was
4.8 l/100km (49 mpg US). Of course, today's Euro 5896661 engines are not capable of such fuel economy anymore.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (2 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2917 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
The encouragement needs to come from the market, not the government.

The government's upcoming CAFE regs are the only reason these mileage technologies are coming to market at this time.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 121, posted (2 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Nope, but I would if there was one worth sitting in

How would you know that?

I actually got to drive a Volt today and I was very impressed with its performance and feel.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 122, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 121):
How would you know that?

I can read spec sheets. I'd love some seat time in EV West's electric M3, but the Volt just doesn't do it for me. Granted no car with performance like that does no matter how it's powered, but few of them cost as much. If I were to ever seriously consider paying over $30,000 for a Volt I sincerely hope one of my friends would punch me in the face and rush me to the closest Porsche dealer. Or at least a nearby Camaro.

By the way, when it comes to green motoring, this is more my style:
http://jalopnik.com/5937220/this-200-mph-sports-car-runs-on-biodiesel

Quoting Flighty (Reply 120):
The government's upcoming CAFE regs are the only reason these mileage technologies are coming to market at this time.

My feelings on CAFE are well known enough.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 123, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 108):

Paris is deploying "AutoLib", thousands of public electric cars, available for occaisional users at a nominal cost to encourage city dwellers who only make occaision car trips to avoid car ownership.

Yes, but France is a socialist dictatorship and we don't want to be anything like them.

Funny thing is, like the bikes, it's all funded by entrepreneurial CAPITALISM!!! Read the article....



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 124, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
The encouragement needs to come from the market, not the government.

  

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
So the only advantage is the lower price per energy unit for the Volt owner.

and it makes them feel 'special'.  
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 123):
Funny thing is, like the bikes, it's all funded by entrepreneurial CAPITALISM!!! Read the article....

Bicycles also use fossil fuels.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (2 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 122):
I can read spec sheets.

Reading spec cheets and actually driving a car are two completely different activities.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 122):
rush me to the closest Porsche dealer

How many people are going to cross shop a Volt with a Porsche, it's more than likely the Porsche owner would buy a Volt for the nanny or one of his kids.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3619 posts, RR: 3
Reply 126, posted (2 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
Doc, you know very well that electric power doesn't fall from the sky...it has to be generated and in case of the USA, 80% of it comes from fossil fuels. So the only advantage is the lower price per energy unit for the Volt owner. For now.

It doesn't get much notice, but our use of coal for energy is dropping quickly. 20% just this year. http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/data.cfm?type=figures
And only greenies lump all "fossil fuels" into the big evil basket.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
Magnitudes better? By what measure? Performance? Handling? Payload? Because not by fuel (or better said, energetic) efficiency. According to fueleconomy.gov, the "model" owner of the Volt spends yearly $100 less on fuel and electric power than the "model" owner of the Prius.

Like many critics, you either evade or miss the point - but then admit the Volt owner will still spend less on energy (proving the Volt more efficient overall). The Volt is much more car than the Prius and it was meant to be. Better handling, more comfortable, more features, different drivetrain, longer electric range and more expensive. You can't say one is "better" than the other because they are different.

Why is it so difficult to understand that some people will pay more for more?


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 127, posted (2 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 116):
It had style.

Supe', somehow almost everything you do seems to have style!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Infrastructure is different because that's one of those things the government has to do. That's fine. What bothers me is the government using their money to pick horses in the race and try to tell me what should be in my driveway.

It has always been that way. Remember "the government" decided to pick a winner back at the revolution and sided with revolution rather than contrition. It is a normal part of governing. And we can't just leave it to foreign companies to have dominance in critical future technology, as many foreign governments Japan, China, Germany etc, provide incentives or subsidies to ensure their industries lead in new technologies, I am not content to let that happen (when possible).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Nope, but I would if there was one worth sitting in. But as of now electric cars are basically one or more of the following: slow, heavy, short ranged, or long charging times. And since I don't care about the environment, I'm not willing to make any of those trade offs for an electric car.

Well to each their own but two things: I highly doubt your statement "I don't care about the environment" as I am positive you do things that are outside in the environment (fishing, camping, offroading, whatever) that you cherish. And two, you really should go and "sit in" and even test drive some of the cars as it will actually inform your decision. Falstaff, a fairly well respected poster here on A.net has made several good posts on what he has seen in the car. He respects and likes what it is but also noted that it need to be lower in cost. He makes good a valid and well informed comments on it.

I myself like the concept and truly hope it survives this "teething" stage and the technology expands into many other platforms across the GM line up. No car is perfect and neither is the Volt but it is a good car (if expensive but those who buy it choose to do so and are not forced). And I truly believe that the future of cars is an electric drivetrain (powered by a variety of power sources from battery's that need outside charging to fuel cells to a small ICE). And I think that GM needs to be in the lead on this development if it wants to be successful.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
Doc, you know very well that electric power doesn't fall from the sky...it has to be generated and in case of the USA, 80% of it comes from fossil fuels. So the only advantage is the lower price per energy unit for the Volt owner. For now.

The big advantage of "generated power", whether it is done by the power company or an on board generator, is that the generator is able to run at peak efficiency all the time which is not possible with current vehicles. The engines revs up and down all over the place and is very comparatively inefficient, why do you think we now see 6, 7, and even 8 speed transmissions?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
Magnitudes better? By what measure? Performance? Handling? Payload? Because not by fuel (or better said, energetic) efficiency. According to fueleconomy.gov, the "model" owner of the Volt spends yearly $100 less on fuel and electric power than the "model" owner of the Prius. It means that he can recoup the difference in list prices in no time - 100 to 150 years, depending on the Prius' model. Of course, the real situation may vary depending on everyone's situation, but the comparison doesn't look good for the Volt. Not by a wide margin. And that was a comparison with the non-plug in Prius.
One more word about criticizing - I'm criticizing the Volt as a lost chance. GM had better gasoline engines already available. A small Turbo DI engine could make all the difference.

The problem is the cost of those engines. The Volt was already expensive and so a low cost, very reliable engine that provided sufficient benefit was selected.

I don't think the Volt is a "lost chance" any more than the Prius was when it was first introduced. Toyota didn't sell many at first but kept developing the technology (and utilizing government offered incentives) and now has a high volume, lower cost of production vehicle.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 126):
The Volt is much more car than the Prius and it was meant to be.

I don't know that the Volt can be called "much more car" than the Prius but it is different. This is a pretty good article that compares the two cars as best as they can be compared. It seems to be fair in its opinion:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...-volt-vs-toyota-prius-compare-cars

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 128, posted (2 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Quoting tugger (Reply 103):
The government was heavily involved in the early development. How do you think roads got done?

Infrastructure is different because that's one of those things the government has to do. That's fine. What bothers me is the government using their money to pick horses in the race and try to tell me what should be in my driveway.

Does it bother you that big oil and GM in the US conspired to shut down the extensive public transport networks across the US in the 30s and 40s, backing their horse? Is anti-competitive manipulation fine with you so long as its private money, but public attempts to help level the playing field to breakthrough technologies are all you oppose?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 129, posted (2 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 128):
Does it bother you that big oil and GM in the US conspired to shut down the extensive public transport networks across the US in the 30s and 40s, backing their horse? Is anti-competitive manipulation fine with you so long as its private money, but public attempts to help level the playing field to breakthrough technologies are all you oppose?

Of course it does. Sand Diego ripped up its light rail network and other tracks around then and replaced them with raods and buses etc.

I don't oppose public funding or monetary policies that motivate private money to invest. I think both can be good tools for development of technologies and industries. There is no hard and fast rule as to what "anti-competitive" because the "competition" is pushing their preference as well. Everybody wants to be treated as special. Sometimes we get it right and sometimes we don't. I personally do believe that electric systems are absolutely the future and should be encouraged, so I support the tools being used to develop the technologies and keep industries here (as much as possible).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 130, posted (2 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
Reading spec cheets and actually driving a car are two completely different activities.

Reading a spec sheet tells me enough about whether or not I want to drive the car. I'm not missing anything by not driving a Volt, Fit, Yaris, or Smart.

Quoting tugger (Reply 127):
I highly doubt your statement "I don't care about the environment" as I am positive you do things that are outside in the environment (fishing, camping, offroading, whatever) that you cherish.

Fishing is boring. Camping is basically self imposed homelessness. Offroading is fun enough but not my cup of tea.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 128):
Does it bother you that big oil and GM in the US conspired to shut down the extensive public transport networks across the US in the 30s and 40s, backing their horse?

Actually most of the companies GM bought were bleeding money beforehand.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 131, posted (2 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Fishing is boring. Camping is basically self imposed homelessness. Offroading is fun enough but not my cup of tea.

Aaaaand....?

What do you do outdoors? Out in "the environment"?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Reading a spec sheet tells me enough about whether or not I want to drive the car. I'm not missing anything by not driving a Volt, Fit, Yaris, or Smart.

Actually you are missing something, you may not care that you are missing it, but you can not deny that you are missing something.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 132, posted (2 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 131):
What do you do outdoors? Out in "the environment"?

Walk from my car to whatever building I need to be in.

And the occasional baseball game, but hot days and sunburn are a really convincing argument in favor of domes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 133, posted (2 years 6 days ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Reading a spec sheet tells me enough about whether or not I want to drive the car. I'm not missing anything by not driving a Volt, Fit, Yaris, or Smart.

Reading a spec sheet tells you nothing about what it is like to drive. A car can still be fun to drive even if it is slow or low on power (e.g. older Civics). In addition, driving a car powered by electricity feels (and is) fundamentally different from one driven by an ICE.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 134, posted (2 years 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 127):
I myself like the concept and truly hope it survives this "teething" stage and the technology expands into many other platforms across the GM line up.
Quoting tugger (Reply 127):
I truly believe that the future of cars is an electric drivetrain (powered by a variety of power sources from battery's that need outside charging to fuel cells to a small ICE). And I think that GM needs to be in the lead on this development if it wants to be successful.

Funny how some here wax all nostalgic about Caddys from decades berore, and forget GM and Caddy got their place in this world by being innovative. Caddy was the first to have electric start, which meant one didn't need to be able to turn over the engine by hand to start the car, making it very much more usable by many more people. Yet now that Caddy takes on the next major change in the auto industry (it's a matter of when, not if) and many of the same people crap on them. Seems to me some can't get their heads out of their   ...

Some praise Merc for investing in the Chrysler 300C but forget there would not be a Chrysler to invest in if it wasn't for a gummint bailout in the Iococca era.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5509 posts, RR: 28
Reply 135, posted (2 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 134):

Some praise Merc for investing in the Chrysler 300C but forget there would not be a Chrysler to invest in if it wasn't for a gummint bailout in the Iococca era.

Important fact: not a single federal dollar ever flowed to Chrysler in the Iacocca era; the feds issued loan guarantees to motivate funding a recovery program by lenders.

The federal government actually made a raft of cash on the deal, through stock warrants which were exercised and stock sold at a gain.

So that first time? Not a bail out.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 136, posted (2 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 135):
So that first time? Not a bail out.

Ok, fine. Do you feel better if it was rephrased as "Chrysler would have gone under without federal loan guarantees that could have become a bailout"?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5509 posts, RR: 28
Reply 137, posted (2 years 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 136):
Ok, fine. Do you feel better if it was rephrased as "Chrysler would have gone under without federal loan guarantees that could have become a bailout"?

Yes, absolutely. That is precisely correct.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 138, posted (2 years 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 56):
If they wanted Caddy to be a prestige brand, then indeed they should only be putting it onto high end high quality prestige models, but that's not the approach GM is taking. Indeed they are taking the approach of BMW and Merc to have a full lineup of premium vehicles and build up towards the prestige class, but IMHO it's just not re-established itself well enough yet to justify a true prestige car.

GM has been trying to "rehabilitate" Cadillac for the past 10 years - the CTS was the very first step in that process, while the XTS, ATS, and ELR are the follow-ups to the CTS' sales success. But an unfortunate thing happenned on the way to Cadillac's utopia. General Motors went bankrupt and ended up with the American taxpayers as a part owner of the business. Thus, Cadillac launches an Opel Insignia based V-6 powered luxury sedan (the new XTS) and a Chevy Volt-based ELR to please their government over-lords I personally like the looks of the new XTS and think that the XTS' interior materials and design in top-shelf. And the ELS looks gorgeous. At least the new ATS sedan managed to stay on engineering track (Cadillac sacrified their rear-wheel drive flagship sedan to launch the ATS)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 121):
I actually got to drive a Volt today and I was very impressed with its performance and feel.

What did you think of the Volt? I test drove a Volt at a ride and drive event here in Phoenix last year, and found that it drove remarkably like the Chevy Cruze - but with a high-tech interior/dash and was uber-quiet when performing city driving in all-electric mode.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 139, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
The encouragement needs to come from the market, not the government.

The market has no incentive to care about air pollution and the related health care costs nor the cost of defending oil producing nations and the related military pensions and health care costs.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 119):
Doc, you know very well that electric power doesn't fall from the sky...it has to be generated and in case of the USA, 80% of it comes from fossil fuels. So the only advantage is the lower price per energy unit for the Volt owner. For now.

The internal combustion engine is of course even more tied to fossil fuels and inherently inefficient. One can produce synthetic petroleum from hydro or wind but that's damn inefficient.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 122):
My feelings on CAFE are well known enough.

Way to be open-minded!

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 138):
But an unfortunate thing happenned on the way to Cadillac's utopia. General Motors went bankrupt and ended up with the American taxpayers as a part owner of the business. Thus, Cadillac launches an Opel Insignia based V-6 powered luxury sedan (the new XTS) and a Chevy Volt-based ELR to please their government over-lords

Not this again. Both the GWB and Obama Administrations did what was needed. If not, there'd be no GM recovery to discuss. If anything, the current administration has been too quick to sell the GM shares, depriving the taxpayers of the benefits of recovery to try to pacify people who would have gladly watched GM go down.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 140, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 128):
Does it bother you that big oil and GM in the US conspired to shut down the extensive public transport networks across the US in the 30s and 40s, backing their horse?

Actually most of the companies GM bought were bleeding money beforehand.

There's a well researched documentary on the topic call, "Taken for a Ride". You can watch the whole thing on YouTube. The show how GM conspired via fronting companies set up for the purpose to buy up SUCCESSFUL local public transport companies, mainly street cars, and deliberately run them into the ground and progressively cut services to discourage use and generate dissatisfaction in preparation for acquiecense to their replacement, by guess what, a GM supplied bus company and private cars!!!



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
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