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Downs Syndrom Girl Faces Death For Blasphemy  
User currently offlinevictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 537 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

Why do things like this happen? This disgusts me.


http://now.msn.com/girl-with-down-sy...arrested-for-blasphemy-in-pakistan

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Hi!

It is sad to see definitely. Speaking as a Christian also from the Middle East (Iraq) I think the main reason for the rise of Islamic fundametalism and persecution is more because of power. I believe for many generations christians in these regions identified a lot more with the powerful mostly Christian Western countries and superpowers and enjoyed an elevated position in society with better jobs, more money and power etc. Now there is a lot of hate directed at them for this and they suffer a lot. Of course it is not everyone but even a minority of extremists can make things very hard and can wield a lot of power. That's how I understand it works from stories from my relatives and stuff and how I feel. I may be talking garbage though!

Thanks,

Pierre


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 2):
It is sad to see definitely. Speaking as a Christian also from the Middle East (Iraq)

Its very sad to see the way the Christians are being wiped out in the Middle East . Iraq/Egypt/Lebanon etc... each to a different extent.

As for this news item what a wonderful world that we live in .  


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4812 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
Its very sad to see the way the Christians are being wiped out in the Middle East . Iraq/Egypt/Lebanon etc...

It show's me how these country's are progressing backwards. They are in what we were 300 years ago in the dark ages.

It's even more tragically as the old arabs(old Koran) were a very advanced and honorable culture.

Religion is a enormusly powerful tool to control the masses and lead them to the direction desired.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4805 times:

Hi!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
Its very sad to see the way the Christians are being wiped out in the Middle East . Iraq/Egypt/Lebanon etc... each to a different extent.

Yes I know many muslims and arabs from many countries like Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc. through my aunt and other relatives. They are all without exception respectful, hard-working, intelligent, honorable men and women. But they are mostly from the older generation. A good friend of my aunt is the brother of Omar Suleiman, the right hand man of Mubarak in Egypt who's funeral was recently. He is an accountant and a very nice man, tough and a shrewd businessman but with honor. But this new generation is becoming more and more different. Even in a place like the UAE embassy where my aunt used to work for 30 years some of the new staff are not tolerant of people of different religions and races and have a hard time working with them and ultimately get them fired. The moderate times are becoming a thing of the past.

It's the little that I've seen anyway,

Pierre


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 2):
I believe for many generations christians in these regions identified a lot more with the powerful mostly Christian Western countries and superpowers and enjoyed an elevated position in society with better jobs, more money and power etc. Now there is a lot of hate directed at them for this and they suffer a lot. Of course it is not everyone but even a minority of extremists can make things very hard and can wield a lot of power. That's how I understand it works from stories from my relatives and stuff and how I feel. I may be talking garbage though!

Nope, I call BS on this argument. Pakistan was formed as an islamic country based on religion. Many non-muslims migrated over to India. So there is no probable cause of anger against christians or any non-muslims.

They treat all hindus, christians, sikhs, ahmedis(sect of islam, whom other mainstream sects don't consider islamic) etc the same. It is very common to kidnap underage hindus/christian girls, and rape them/marry them, and then claim that they converted to islam voluntarily and married muslims. The Blasphemy law is used to settle private scores. Anyone can claim that a non-muslim violated the law, and onus of proving innocence is on the accused. A lynch mob will soon form to destroy the non-muslims' home/property/women. If the blasphemy accused are convicted and sentenced to prision, there is a very good chance that a religious prisioner will maim/kill the blasphemy accused!

It is no wonder that non-muslims population which was around 12-15% at time of creation of pakistan is now less than 5%.


User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Hi!

Quoting blrsea (Reply 8):
Nope, I call BS on this argument. Pakistan was formed as an islamic country based on religion. Many non-muslims migrated over to India. So there is no probable cause of anger against christians or any non-muslims.

They treat all hindus, christians, sikhs, ahmedis(sect of islam, whom other mainstream sects don't consider islamic) etc the same. It is very common to kidnap underage hindus/christian girls, and rape them/marry them, and then claim that they converted to islam voluntarily and married muslims. The Blasphemy law is used to settle private scores. Anyone can claim that a non-muslim violated the law, and onus of proving innocence is on the accused. A lynch mob will soon form to destroy the non-muslims' home/property/women. If the blasphemy accused are convicted and sentenced to prision, there is a very good chance that a religious prisioner will maim/kill the blasphemy accused!

It is no wonder that non-muslims population which was around 12-15% at time of creation of pakistan is now less than 5%.

I can see your point. I'm not sure how much of that happens in the middle east but I imagine it does sometimes. Sometimes Christian girls in the middle east marry Muslim men by choice and that is fine and their choice. Sometimes Muslim girls marry Christian guys and they should be free to do so too if they both wish. I think the problem in Iraq is there is too little national unity. Everyone is trying to carve out their little piece and fighting each other. The Kurds, the Muslim fundamentalists, the Christians, the Sunnis the Shiaa. They are used to being ruled over and when all under a foreign ruler or dictator the people unite much more. Now they are free they don't know what to do. Even though they suffered and were pretty much kicked out my parents and relatives still feel proud to be Iraqi and me too (even though I have never been there). They tell me always that the Iraqis are the nicest people and can't believe when they see stuff on TV and say it must be from outside the country. I would love to go back to Iraq at least for a visit but it is extremely unlikely in the near future. It is my real home. But there is so little national unity and peace. The only thing that brings people together is the Iraqi football team and the singer Kadim Saher! It is sad. I don't really know much about the problems between muslims and hindus and other non-muslims in Pakistan and India but it would be interesting to learn more. What is good in India is that even though there are so many different kinds of Indians from different regions with different languages and stuff they have a national identity and have united. I guess we will have to see what happens in the Middle East but things don't look good at the moment and are only getting worse.

Many thanks.

Pierre


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4645 times:

Quoting victrola (Thread starter):
Why do things like this happen? This disgusts me.


http://now.msn.com/girl-with-down-sy...istan

I guess it wouldn't help the girl much to ask the mob why exactly their "all-powerful supreme being" would need protection from assault by an 11 year old in the first place.

They are more mentally retarded than she is, at the hands of their own irrational beliefs. Congratulations!


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4640 times:

This is pathetic hope she gets justice, there are alot of mischief makers who try to ignite trouble amongst muslims and non-muslims, and of late they have even started pitting muslims against one another.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 8):
It is no wonder that non-muslims population which was around 12-15% at time of creation of pakistan is now less than 5%.

Not surprising, given the opportunity even the muslims would leave here for greener pastures.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4469 times:
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Quoting victrola (Thread starter):
Why do things like this happen? This disgusts me.

It not only disguts me it make me so angry. The only good thing i heard is that the Pakistani president took charge of the case, those those retarded still living in the 5th century religious judges are not in control of the fate of that poor girl anymore.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineqantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5870 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

Quoting victrola (Thread starter):
Why do things like this happen? This disgusts me.

seriously, do you think they are going to convict and execute this child? This story has been aired down in Australia for a few days now and what it comes down to is the fact that mobs were threatening Christians and the police decided to take her in for the safety of herself and others.

originally the police wanted nothing to do with this.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3679 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 34):
seriously, do you think they are going to convict and execute this child?

The Guardian article I was reading today was painting a very bad picture of the forced hardships that the Christian populations endure in Pakistan. It also talked about how this act could start a chain of violence against the whole Christian community in the area. From what I read, most of them have fled their neighborhood. Even if the child is not convicted, her whole community will end up suffering because of this "event" (according to the article, no real eye witnesses apart from a person that saw her holding some pages written in Arabic).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...tensions-quran-burning-allegations


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

Muslims too have faced similar harassment and threats in pakistan after being accused of blasphemy, its not limited to non-muslim community. I see some accross the world and here are trying to paint it as an only happening to non-muslims situation.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
Muslims too have faced similar harassment and threats in pakistan after being accused of blasphemy, its not limited to non-muslim community

True but when you also see well documented reports of ''Land Grabbing'' from Christians and jobs advertised as ''Christians Only'' as they are deemed too low for Muslims it does shock many of us in the West .


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
Muslims too have faced similar harassment and threats in pakistan after being accused of blasphemy, its not limited to non-muslim community. I see some accross the world and here are trying to paint it as an only happening to non-muslims situation.

There are a few other factors that draw more attention:

- it's a kid
- it's a mentally disabled kid
- it's a mentally disabled christian kid
- it's a mentally disabled christian kid whose family and co-believers are likely to get killed if they don't run for their lives

Now let's take the christian part out of it:
- it's a mentally disabled kid who and whose family and co-believers are likely to get killed if they don't run for their lives

How is that any less barbaric? Point is, there are many western christian support organisations which are able to reach the press with this story and make it go viral, where there aren't so many when the same happens to a muslim kid. (and if there were, they maybe wouldn't give any publicity to it because the case painfully shows the flaws of islam, or what we know as the islamic world?)



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3679 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
Muslims too have faced similar harassment and threats in pakistan after being accused of blasphemy, its not limited to non-muslim community. I see some accross the world and here are trying to paint it as an only happening to non-muslims situation.

Of course, as also mentioned in the article:

Quote:
In 2011, Salman Taseer, the former governor of Punjab province, was gunned down by his own bodyguard after he spoke out against the case of Aasia Bibi, another Christian woman accused of blasphemy.

But I cannot get it out of my head that such "accusations" are being used to settle other differences, just because such accusations will cause a large part of the local Muslim community to riot and seek to punish the offenders themselves - no surprises there.

Quote:

"They have done this to provoke the Muslims, like they have with their noisy banging and singing from their churches," said a local mullah, who would not give his name. "We are not upset the Christians have left and we will be pleased if they don't come back."

It looks as if this event is more connected to religious antagonism than some would like to admit.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
and jobs advertised as ''Christians Only'' as they are deemed too low for Muslims it does shock many of us in the West .

Thats misinterpretation on your part, Christian only jobs are because Christians are honest and hardworking, ask any one in Pakistan and they will tell you this, and Christians are not the only people enjoying this status so do Hindus and Parsis as well as Muslim sects like Bohra, Memon, Ismaili and Gujrati (immigrant community from Indian Gujrat state) all these are preferred employees, most of our maids have been Christian and were treated like part of the family, we have always preferred them over muslim maids when hiring, infact there are non-muslims in the armed forces and atleast one Christain retired as a high ranking Army man.

I hope you are also not getting the impression that Christains only work as janitors and house maids, they are doctors, pilots, air hostesses, stewards, secreteries, bank CEOs, multinational executives, succesul self employed entrepreneurs, teachers, principals in some of the leading private educational institutes, some of which are Christian owned, it all depends on the education, poor Christians share the same fate poor Muslims in Pakistan who also do not get good education or nice jobs, while better off Christians can and do make it big here.

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 41):
How is that any less barbaric

Its not less barbaric at all, she and her family could have been muslim and in the same situation.

Quoting lewis (Reply 42):
It looks as if this event is more connected to religious antagonism than some would like to admit.

Its no secret non-Muslims are despised by fanatics and their uneducated followers, as are liberal and westernised muslims like Salman taseer and his family and Shias, why dont you also discuss what the peace loving bhuddists are doing to muslims in Myanmar.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3679 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

[quote=777way,reply=43]why dont you also discuss what the peace loving bhuddists are doing to muslims in Myanmar.[/quote

I wouldn't mind reading about the situation -which I admit I have no knowledge in- and discussing it, unfortunately it has no connection to this news report.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 42):
It looks as if this event is more connected to religious antagonism than some would like to admit.

It has some connection to this comment of yours, as that is exactly whats happeining in Myanmar.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):
Its no secret non-Muslims are despised by fanatics and their uneducated followers, as are liberal and westernised muslims like Salman taseer and his family and Shias, why dont you also discuss what the peace loving bhuddists are doing to muslims in Myanmar.

We aren't talking about Bhuddists right now. We're talking about people using religion as a weapon. It happens everywhere. It's just that they're more successful at it in the Mid-East than they are in most of the rest of the world at this time in history.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3679 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 45):

It has some connection to this comment of yours, as that is exactly whats happeining in Myanmar.

Which I do not condone either. As a non-religious person, I find this whole issue silly at best. Burning a book, touching a book with dirty hands and all that is just trivial to me because we are talking about a book. This would not be an issue in a country that does not embrace a specific religion but unfortunately this is not the case. The fact that such a law can be used in such a way in order to settle inter-faith issues of a community is disturbing, especially considering that anyone, at anytime, can accuse someone else without real evidence, in order to settle a religious spite that goes back centuries.

You are right about the same thing happening over and over around the world from all sides. This is why I believe my country and our neighbor were blessed by the forced population exchange. No matter how much of an extreme measure it was, it still saves us from a lot of trouble today. In places where the measure was not enforced there is still friction, they should have gone at it 100%!


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

That law is considered draconian by many Muslims here as well, only the zealots support it and have vowed chaos if its ever altered let alone be dropped, thats why Salman taseer was killed as he said something about changing it, he was not asasinated for pleading the cause of the girl accused.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):

Pakistan is not Middle east if you are lumping it with that region, and yes why isnt anyone discussing What is happening in Myanmar, yet there is concern for muslims of Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iran etc.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 16):
Thats misinterpretation on your part, Christian only jobs are because Christians are honest and hardworking,

I go by reliable news reports and Pakistani friends I have of whom ALL are Muslim . Whilst they are quite defensive of their ''clan'' they admit the issues that exist. Jobs are often advertised as ''christian only'' for working in sewage and other un pleasant jobs. Can Muslims not be trusted to work in sewage plants?

The latest updates with regards the topic in hand are :

Muslims looting the homes of the Christians that had to flee the colony.

Local authorities advised the Christians that their safety cant be guranteed if they return.

So is it not the job of the Pakistani authorities to protect ethnic minorities in the country ?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4133 times:
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Quoting 777way (Reply 22):
yet there is concern for muslims of Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iran etc.

I am not sure i understand this.  



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 21):
That law is considered draconian by many Muslims here as well, only the zealots support it and have vowed chaos if its ever altered let alone be dropped, thats why Salman taseer was killed as he said something about changing it, he was not asasinated for pleading the cause of the girl accused.

If the Zealots have that much control. Many muslims is not enough.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

I dont know about Muslims not doing sewage jobs but neither do Christians from the Goan community in Pakistan, nor do any of the other non-Muslim minorities here except some Hindu sects, infact these Christians are converts from the untouchable class from pre-partition and perhaps for some of them sewage cleaning was a traditional trait so the converts carried on with it.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 24):

I'm surpridsed they have a say for issues in these muslim countries and for people of places like such or even Saudi, but not a peep on the Myanmar killings of Muslims by peace loving bhuddhists.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 27, posted (2 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3863 times:
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Welcome to the world of after 9/11. But we really should not put all the blame on them, there are people within the Muslim world giving them the reason to be the way this is going.


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 28, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

According to the Guardian:

Quote:
Islamic leaders in Pakistan on Monday came out in support of a Christian girl with learning difficulties who is being held in prison, in an unprecedented public denunciation of the blasphemy law by hard-line mullahs.

The All Pakistan Ulema Council, an umbrella group of Muslim clerics and scholars, which includes representatives from fundamentalist groups, joined hands with the Pakistan Interfaith League, which includes Christians, Sikhs and other religions, to call for justice for the girl, Rimsha, who is accused of blasphemy. They also demanded that those making false allegations be punished.

Following a history of assassination of politicians, including the Minister for Minorities who have spoken out this is a welcome move. Let us hope that this leads to serious efforts to end discrimination and persecution against religious minorities.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 29, posted (2 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 3548 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 27):
Welcome to the world of after 9/11. But we really should not put all the blame on them, there are people within the Muslim world giving them the reason to be the way this is going.

That's right--they're not to blame. They're victims, right? BS. Those poor opressed Muslims who are forcing their values on everyone else, subjugating women's rights, still mutilating genitalia, living in a backwards culture of submission to Allah that doesn't permit any divergence from the doctrine....yup, it's all OUR fault for making them do that.

Your way of life needs a reformation but since that's not possible either (for a slew of reasons we've debated here ad nauseam) I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.

Why, hello there, self-fulfilling prophecy. You've clearly made up your mind, as you've already said. "Yes, this oppressive, backward way of life cannot be reformed. They will keep behaving this way." If that's the way everyone thought, yes, then it's quite obvious that the only way to solve it will be some massive existential struggle.

No, it's more important to recognize that injustice and cruelty are a potential part of everyone, regardless of culture or creed. Us here in the "Western world" are just lucky enough to have, by little more than historical coincidence, found a system that holds it back more readily than many other places in the world.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
it's all OUR fault for making them do that.

I tend to think its our fault somewhat.

Instead of just leaving them alone to "do what they want", we are the ones trying to instill our values on them.

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.

Or until the "west" and the US, decides to let them sort it out.

Not all of them are bad (Muslims that is) This lot in Pakistan want to help this girl.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/islamic-...asphemy-charge-20120828-24yur.html



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (2 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 3460 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
Your way of life needs a reformation but since that's not possible either

There are major differences in countries that are nominally Muslim. Not all practice genital mutilation, a practice that predates Islam and appears to have originated in Africa. Strabo, the Greek geographer, reported the practice's existence in Egypt when he visited in 25 BCE, some six hundred years before the rise of Islam.

It does not appear to be practiced in Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia, for example, all of which are Muslim countries. In Mauritania Islamic scholars have issued a fatwa banning the practice and Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Togo, and Uganda have legislation against it. The Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, has stated that FGM had no basis in Islamic law.

The variations in practice and the several different Islamic schools of thought would suggest that Muslims are capable of reform.

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
yup, it's all OUR fault for making them do that.

If you read SOBHI51's post you will note that he places the blame "within the Muslim world". That makes your point a bit redundant.


User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1427 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (2 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
Your way of life needs a reformation but since that's not possible either (for a slew of reasons we've debated here ad nauseam) I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.

Until? There already is a clash.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 34, posted (2 years 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
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Quoting slider (Reply 29):
That's right--they're not to blame. They're victims, right? BS. Those poor opressed Muslims who are forcing their values on everyone else, subjugating women's rights, still mutilating genitalia, living in a backwards culture of submission to Allah that doesn't permit any divergence from the doctrine....yup, it's all OUR fault for making them do that.

Your way of life needs a reformation but since that's not possible either (for a slew of reasons we've debated here ad nauseam) I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.

Please before you start attacking full force, try to read and understand what i wrote, otherwise the BS is coming from you.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6963 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (2 years 4 months 12 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Having grown up in a country with a significant muslim population, I can attest that the large majority is fine. I can also attest they were even finer before 9/11 and the two wars that ensued. The idea of a clash is causing the clash to happen, in my opinion. Of course, some countries financing certain teachings to young muslims to spread doesn't help, but after all, they're just imitating what the catholic church has been doing for centuries, and evangelicals and other christians are doing now, with no regard for the consequences.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 36, posted (2 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 30):
If that's the way everyone thought

Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 33):
Until? There already is a clash.

True. Except the West doesn't fully understand or acknowledge it. We hide behind this multicultural PC crap and refuse to acknowledge that yes, some cultures, some societies, and some ways of life ARE in fact better than others. That's heresy in the 21st century to make that claim, but tough.

And it's not that I want MY values inflicted upon them. Frankly, I don't give a damn how they live--I'm a libertarian--but what I DO take exception to is their perverse mandate and call to violence. Islam was born by the sword and has a bloody history that, unlike other religions or cultures who've had reformations and evolutions, has NOT ameliorated from it's scimitar wielding origins.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (2 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.

Another example of how if something is repeated often enough it becomes the truth.


User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 3337 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 37):
Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.

I don't think there would be many non Muslims living in Muslim majority countries were that the case. As a matter of fact, I don't think there would be any countries that have Muslims and non Muslims living together, so something isn't right here.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 39, posted (2 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 37):
Another example of how if something is repeated often enough it becomes the truth.

It's in black and white, baby.... facts are curious things.

And if they denounce the words of their prophet, then he's fallible. Which craters the entire belief system. We've been over this before, try to keep up.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 36):

Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.

Yet somehow the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates, i.e. the closest successors to Muhammad when he was alive, both had significant non-Muslim populations, and in fact depended on them for tax revenue, as "People of the Book" who weren't Muslim paid an extra amount. Of course, you just said you were a libertarian, so maybe that's just like being killed?


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6972 posts, RR: 76
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.

Fact: I am a Muslim.
Fact: I don't go around looking for people who want to be converts.
Fact: I don't go around killing people who do not want to convert.
Fact: Some people won't understand the combination of the above 3.
If by the above, you say I am therefore, not qualified to claim to be a Muslim, congratulations, your mindset has joined those of the suicidal Jihaddists!

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
yup, it's all OUR fault for making them do that.

No it is not. SOBH151 didn't say it's your fault. He's saying welcome to the realities of post 9/11... These scumbags ultimate aim is to polarize Muslim society using their "struggle with the west" as cover. Bush went "either you're with us or with them", these suicidal Jihaddist use the same method, although very in-your-face with direct harm risks upon refusal instead of "on TV and from several thousand feet above"

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
I don't expect this to end until there is a clash of civilizations.

I see you really have been successfully brainwashed by the suicidal Jihaddists.

  



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

acording to Islamic do's and dont's in marital sex, the woman has to be arroused fully and brought to orgasm, therefore this genitalia circumcision/mutilation crap some of you keep bringing up as an Islamic practice is just that i.e crap, as mutilated female genitalia does not allow enjoyment of sex nor orgasm.

User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

I hope they can get the whole family safely out of the country, if the international pressure stays on...

Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
Muslims too have faced similar harassment and threats in pakistan after being accused of blasphemy, its not limited to non-muslim community.


What are the chances of improving the legal system in Pakistan and how might it be done? Is there hope for improvement in the short term?

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
Well, it's not MY opinion--it's the very words of their prophet that calls muslims to jihad. Convert or be killed. Those aren't my words.


Except, just as with the bible, there are plenty of interpretations. Only some people are crazy hardliners. You have created such an information filter, only seeing the information and examples that already fit with (or that you distort to fit with) your extreme judgement, that you have made it impossible for yourself to judge people independently.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3021 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting n229nw (Reply 43):
Except, just as with the bible, there are plenty of interpretations. Only some people are crazy hardliners. You have created such an information filter, only seeing the information and examples that already fit with (or that you distort to fit with) your extreme judgement, that you have made it impossible for yourself to judge people independently.

Well said.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

The whole case took a new twist:
First the Pakistani Muslim assembly, which also contains more fundamentalist Muslims, has condemned the accusations and demanded a review of the blasphemy laws, since according to them they were too often used to settle private grudges and often accusations were based on lies. e.g. to get the property of the accused party. The assembly demanded a strong punishment for those abusing the laws.

Then now the Imam who had allegegedly planted the burnt Q´ran pages in the girl´s rubbish bag, has been arrested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19454739

As for the girl and her parents, they are still in police custody, but now it seems rather to protect them from the mob.

Jan


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3556 posts, RR: 17
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2980 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting n229nw (Reply 43):
You have created such an information filter

He should read this.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18911...-probably-believe-about-islam.html



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

New information came out during the day:

The Q´ran pages were apparently planted into the girl´s rubbish bag as part of a conspiracy by the arrested Imam and others to "get rid of the Christians from the neighbourhood".
According to the prosecutors he will now be charged under the same blasphemy laws he tried to use against the Christians for desecrating the Q´ran.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19454739

There is a village not too far from where I live, where during the Nazi rule the locals ganged up against their Jewish neighbours, and after they had been forced to flee deported to the death camps, divided up their property. The Jews had to sell their property to "Aryans" at prices well below market level.
It is still known which families got rich during this time.

Jan


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 47):
The Q´ran pages were apparently planted into the girl´s rubbish bag as part of a conspiracy by the arrested Imam and others to "get rid of the Christians from the neighbourhood".
According to the prosecutors he will now be charged under the same blasphemy laws he tried to use against the Christians for desecrating the Q´ran.

No surprise here. Anyone want to take bets against the Imam getting a slap on the wrist or less?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Anyone want to take bets against the Imam getting a slap on the wrist or less?

Actually I would be surprised. I think, because the uproar this case caused both in Pakistan and abroad (the Uleima, the assembly of Muslim community leaders in Pakistan, which includes also some fundamentalists, has voiced that any abuse of the blasphemy laws should be heavily punished), this case might be used to set an example and he might be in for exemplary hard punishment.

In any case, according to the BBC,most blasphemy convictions in Pakistan get later overturned by higher coursts and the accused aquitted, mainly due to lack of evidence and because pressure was put on lower courts by local Islamists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12621225

Jan


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6108 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

I have a feeling too this Imam will go free after a while, the girl and her family should be taken abroad.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 8):
This is pathetic hope she gets justice, there are alot of mischief makers who try to ignite trouble amongst muslims and non-muslims, and of late they have even started pitting muslims against one another.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 47):
The Q´ran pages were apparently planted into the girl´s rubbish bag as part of a conspiracy by the arrested Imam and others to "get rid of the Christians from the neighbourhood".

Sad how quick people can be to judge. She could have easily been killed over something she did do (and if she did, probably didn't know any better--down syndrome and all)

I find it sad you can be killed for blasphemy. Wow



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 22):
yet there is concern for muslims of Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iran etc

Only Muslims killing other Muslims

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
I tend to think its our fault somewhat.

It's our fault they wanted to come to the West?

And when the West finally realizes that Islam is a political system instead of a religion they'll be much better off.

[Edited 2012-09-07 08:34:15]


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

The girl has been bailed now by a judge. It is the first time in Pakistan that somebody accused of blasphemy has been released on bail. But it is also the first case where three witnesses, among them the deputy of the arrested Imam, came out to testify that the evidence for the blasphemy has been faked. This means the religious thugs lost their power, at least in this case.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19498970

Jan


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