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Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane  
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Ruling that the mass killer is sane, Breitvik has been sentensed to the maximum 21 years cistody by a court in Norway.

This follows conflicting testimony from experts on Breitvik's mental state and capacity.

Breitvik himself wanted to be ruled sane so that his act could be seen as political and not simply an act of madness.

The prosecution had argued that he be ruled insane so that he could be held indefinitely. Guilt was never in doubt as Breitvik accepted what he had done and argued that it was "cruel but necessary."

The courts ruling allows for the 21 year period to be extended if it is deemed necessary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-2...-verdict-on-breivik-sanity/4221236

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

As far as I'm aware he will remain in custody for life, beyond his prison term.

User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
The courts ruling allows for the 21 year period to be extended if it is deemed necessary

Only allows it to be extended in blocks of 5 years, plus Brevik will be elligible for parole in 10 years. Norway’s legal system is based on a strong tradition of belief in rehabilitation and the return of criminals to society, I have my doubts that Brevik will ever see 21 year in gaol. If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5743 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2367 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.

That is kinda nuts .. a politically correct, warm fuzzy legal system that might see this whackjob back on the streets in the prime of life .. ready to do it all over again.

That is just as bad as the imprison without trial totaltarian regimes.

I can be critical of the legal system here in Aus and the sometimes inappropriate sentences handed out but I doubt Breivick would be treated like a jaywalker!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 3):
That is kinda nuts .. a politically correct, warm fuzzy legal system that might see this whackjob back on the streets in the prime of life .. ready to do it all over again.

Norways justice system is crazy, the last major serial killer in this country, Arnfin Nesset, convicted of killing 22 people, although the authourities believe he may have killed 138 people was given 21 years like Brevik, he was allowed out after 12 years.


User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
I have my doubts that Brevik will ever see 21 year in gaol. If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.

I don't think so. The law was changed so that someone can be kept in jail not just if he is a danger to society, but also for cases where society is a danger to the criminal. In other words, he can be kept in "protective custody" for as long as someone holds a grudge. That's gonna be a loooooong time! The law is nicknamed "Lex Breivik", which should give you a clue for whom the law was written!

I've only got a Dutch source on this:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/1...el_zeker_levenslang_Breivik__.html



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13195 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

I think in large part this was a deal done to keep away from the public disclosing the terrible failures of the government and the police in preventing the initial and subsequent events of Breitvik. Even here in the USA, we have convicted killers who when they come up for parole under old and since changed laws the prisioner never gets out. I suspect Breitvik will never be free, that somehow the government of Norway will find some way to keep him in some kind of confinement at least to prevent him from being killed by the 'people'.

User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 5):
he can be kept in "protective custody" for as long as someone holds a grudge.

Not true a private individual can't hold a grudge and keep him in, it's up to the parole authourities to make the decision. The authourities may well take publis feeling into account, but that's not how the system works in Norway, if the authourities think you've repented and learn't you lesson you will be allowed out. They only way Brevik will remain in gaol for life is if he continues to believe in his manifest. You have to realise justice in Norway is all about making the criminal repent and bringing him back into society and a functioning individual, Norwegian justice couldn't give a crap about the victims.


User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
it's up to the parole authourities to make the decision. The authourities may well take publis feeling into account, but that's not how the system works in Norway,

Of course it is up to the parole officer to decide. But as mentioned the rules have changed. They no longer look ONLY if the convict (Breivik) is still a danger to society. The autorities now also look at how society is likely to respond to the convict upon release. If people are likely to try to hurt or kill Breivik when his time in prison is up, then Breivik can still be held in protective custody till the (perceived) threat is gone. This is a new law introduced June 22nd.



Attamottamotta!
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 8):
If people are likely to try to hurt or kill Breivik when his time in prison is up, then Breivik can still be held in protective custody till the (perceived) threat is gone.

That's not the way I've heard preventative detention explained, so long he he is no longer a danger to society he can come out, if someone kills him when he gets out, I doubt many woulkd shed a tear.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
I suspect Breitvik will never be free, that somehow the government of Norway will find some way to keep him in some kind of confinement at least to prevent him from being killed by the 'people'.

The sentence can be extended, and potentially indefinitely, if, after 21 years, he is considered to still pose a threat to society. Not so much for the reason you mention.

The possibility of being eligible for parole after 10 years probably only exists in theory in cases like this.

In the U.S., Breivik would face either death or life without parole. The main difference I see here is that those verdicts would basically tell the offender that the state doesn't care if he actually repents and - somehow - manages to become a respectable citizen. While the likelihood that this is going to happen is close to zero, the Norwegians at least don't *completely* rule it out.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
While the likelihood that this is going to happen is close to zero, the Norwegians at least don't *completely* rule it out.

They don't not rule it out because they expect the criminal to repent, be released and become a contributing member of society again.

As I pointed out above another Norwegian serial killer was sentenced to 21 years, he was let out in 12, IMO Nesset should have been kept in gaol for the full 21 year sentance but he apparently reformed and was no longer judged a danger to society. So whilst legal experts and talking heads are talking about Brevik remaining in gaol for the rest of his life a lot can happen between now and his first parole hearing or when his sentance is up in 21 years. This is Norway, strange things happen here, especially concerning crime and punishment.


User currently offlineAviRaider From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

While I think Norway's justice sytem is noble in it's efforts to rehabilitate, it's obvious it was never set up to handle offenders of this kind. This is not justice for the 77 victims. He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Norwegian Containment

■ Containment may be imposed on dangerous offenders accountable when an ordinary temporary imprisonment is not considered sufficient to address social protection.
■ Containment scheme's purpose is primarily to protect society against new serious crime from the convicted person's side.
■ The reaction is the only punishment that is indefinite, but the court must still determine a timeframe for detention.
■ A Containment may be considered again when the detention period expires. If the court concludes that the recurrence risk is present, the frame can be extended by up to five years at a time.
■ There is no upper limit on Containment, so the punishment can last a lifetime.
■ Containment should be inserted in a prison or a department that is specifically designed for this.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2301 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

No civilized country does that. Which in effect makes states like Texas uncivilized. Since that was never an option, it was never an option. 21 years is the maximum sentence. You can't change a legal system for one criminal, no matter how heinous.

Taking a life should not be a judiciary option. At most, it's a cost-cutting measure. The convicted murderer suffers more being deprived of liberty for 21 years than getting humanely executed.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

Is it? How does it help anyone? If you want him to be punished isn't life in jail much worse than being put to death? One stops the punishment.


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

I can imagine that some inmates will let him have a special treatment.   


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 998 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Is it? How does it help anyone? If you want him to be punished isn't life in jail much worse than being put to death? One stops the punishment.


  

There is no death penalty in Norway, not in EU, not even in Russia.

Death penalty would make Breivik a martyr for the neo-nazis, his wet dream I guess.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2536 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):

Recently, in BSL a man who killed his female friend was sentenced to 17 years in prison. He had a narcisstic personailty disorder, but was nevertheless held capable of being guilt. After the woman told him she didn't want to marry him, he stabbed her while she slept. He let her body lie on the bed, closed the bedroom, and for four days, he lived with the children of the woman, pretending everything to be normal.

17 years, and it is really scratching the upper limit for criminal sentences here. Breivik got 21 years.

I always think of the world and all its opportunities, getting to know friends, marrying, having children, flying by while you are in prison for such a long time. All the time, you're awake and you can't sleep years at a time, waking up at the day you'll be freed.

As a person who has found great joy in caring for other people, spending time with my friends and having a "live and let live" philosophy, I do not think of a 21-year prison sentence as being less harsh than being executed. After such a long time in detention, I would have lost all my connections to the current world. Science and technology will have advanced, job requirements will have changed. The things I loved and used to do can't be found again easily. The live of a crippled, so to say, a freedom one cannot call freedom.


As an alternative to capital punishment, I've always thought of servitude. For basic clothing, medical care, board and lodge provided by the government, the criminal would have to be at the service of the victims until the damage done is either fully restored, or he is pardoned by the victims.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2119 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 14):
No civilized country does that. Which in effect makes states like Texas uncivilized.
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 14):
The convicted murderer suffers more being deprived of liberty for 21 years than getting humanely executed.

You can't have it both ways. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2536 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 16):
I can imagine that some inmates will let him have a special treatment.

He will be kept away from the other prisoners.

Some photographs, just click here: http://bazonline.ch/ausland/europa/2...den-Rest-des-Lebens/story/26168072

He'll get a three-room "cell". One with exercise equipment, a work room, a bedroom. Each one has 8 square meters or 86 square feet. It's reported that his laptop will have an offline version of the Wikipedia, and he's assumed to write books while in prison.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Norways justice system is crazy

It's only crazy if it doesn't work. Norway is not known for its rampant criminality...



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 920 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
I always think of the world and all its opportunities, getting to know friends, marrying, having children, flying by while you are in prison for such a long time. All the time, you're awake and you can't sleep years at a time, waking up at the day you'll be freed.

I doubt this looney will be thinking about these things while locked up. I really don't think this turd of a human being would have friends or anyone else to care for. Pointing a gun at a child and pulling the trigger, and doing it over and over again and then claiming it's for a good cause? Sorry, I just don't see how the court decided he was sane in the first place. Maybe they were examining a different case...?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
■ A Containment may be considered again when the detention period expires. If the court concludes that the recurrence risk is present, the frame can be extended by up to five years at a time.
■ There is no upper limit on Containment, so the punishment can last a lifetime.

Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system. I wouldn't care if the man was thrown to the lions, but a trick like this from a country like Norway is surprising.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

We also have a law like that in France since a few years, a lot of people do wonder how it passed constitutional muster. In fact a part of it was scrapped as it was retroactive and there was no way that could pass. So the worst offenders judged before that law can still be released after 23 years. The difference is that the new law mandates someone to be judged unfit for life in society, so after the prison sentence you get committed to a mental facility (built like a prison). In the opinion of many (including me) it really highlights a major problem of our system in that we judge people to have a medical condition but actually do nothing to help them.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system. I wouldn't care if the man was thrown to the lions, but a trick like this from a country like Norway is surprising.

Read more about it here:

http://www.ilafengsel.no/preventive_detension.html


25 NoUFO : Little correction: As I said above, life without parole would indicate that it does not matter to the state if a murderer surprisingly becomes a much
26 cmf : I'm pretty sure this law have existed for many years already. It certainly existed at the time of the bombing/shooting.
27 Post contains links canoecarrier : There were a number of threads about Breivik after the Oslo bombing/massacre that discussed this part of Norwegian law. Mortyman has been really good
28 OV735 : Thanks for the heads-up about the law having been made years before Breivik snapped. I agree regarding life without parole, however I didn't mention
29 flyingturtle : I don't agree with your words here. He has surely lost the touch with reality, but there is no reason not to give him a honest chance to repent and r
30 canoecarrier : So, can he write books about his political views while in prison? He obviously considers himself a martyr for his cause. Just curious, even Hitler wr
31 NoUFO : I understand what you mean, but I think the definition "sane" is: he can be held liable for what he did.
32 Quokkas : There were two assessments done with the first deeming him to be suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, mainly through an argument that he had clumsi
33 Post contains images flyingturtle : Hitler wasn't in a (real) prison. He was under "Festungshaft", a prison sentence which wasn't meant to take away the prisoner's honor and dignity. Pr
34 Pyrex : Nope, just whipped. Totally missing the point of a criminal justice system. First and foremost, the judicial system exists to PUNISH - it was created
35 KiwiRob : Amongst ethnic Norwegians, the problem is immigrants who commit the vast majority of crimes and are filling up prisons, they see Norwegian justice as
36 dc9northwest : The US has the death penalty (fine, I know, at the state level, and only some states) and it's a good few times more dangerous than Europe. There has
37 Maverick623 : 33 states currently have the death penalty on the books (although a few of them I believe have de facto abolished it), plus the federal government st
38 dc9northwest : As far as I know there's a moratorium by the Federal government on the death penalty, so they won't put anyone on Death Row for now. I don't see that
39 Maverick623 : Nope. There are about 50 people currently on federal death-row (the last was actually executed in 2003), and there's talk of Nadal Hassan (the Ft Hoo
40 LTBEWR : I wonder if in Europe, with growing unrest due to economic problems, modern media sensationalism of major criminal events, terrorism events, the rise
41 Post contains images zkojq : What? At the very least, part of his punishment should be that he has to share a cell with a prisoner who is Muslim. For the families of the victims,
42 bjorn14 : He will have full internet access. I'm sure he can write a book but not sure if he can profit from it. Nope. He will be kept in isolation away from t
43 Aesma : Society decides what is the goal of the justice system. As for the victims (or rather their relatives) I saw a few on the news and they seemed conten
44 Mortyman : No, he will not have internet access at all. The PC that he has has no connection to internett and basically is just a typewriter. This has been publ
45 cmf : Not only does he not have internet access. It is now up for review if he will be allowed to keep the computer.
46 AviRaider : Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. He should, burn in hell for eternity. This man gave up his life when he executed children, PERIOD. He de
47 cmf : To use your own words: "Just because you say it, doesn't make it so." The reports I have seen have stated victims and relatives are happy with the ve
48 PPVRA : The adequate severity of punishment is subjective, so there is nothing necessarily wrong with this sentence. If Norwegians feel justice has been adequ
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