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More Government Is Not The Answer  
User currently offlineGEEZER From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5649 times:

I mentioned on another thread that I would start this one, so as to avoid getting off-topic on that thread.
Every government entity that I mention is in plain sight, and It's common knowledge that what I've listed is as described. I have no means to check every figure to see if it's "to the penny" accurate, but it really isn't important;
I'm sure you'll see what I mean.

Listed below are some of the Federal Government's attempts to manage
things, none of which has "worked" all that well;


a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.
 
234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !


b.. Social Security was established in 1935.
 
74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.
I'm real lucky on this one........it looks like it will "outlast" me....(barely)

c.. Fannie Mae was established in 1938.

71 years to get it right but it's still broke
Again......Fannie Mae has had lots of publicity of late.
I'm not "sweating" Fannie Mae.........our house an land are free and clear

d.. War on Poverty started in 1964
 
45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our
money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
The "poor" have always been with us and
they will ALWAYS be with us. ( there are many good
reasons for this, but that's another discussion for another time.)
( Poverty......only thing I can think of that may "outlast" bed rock ! )

e.. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.  

44 years to get it right and it's STILL broke.
This is the one that I have LOTS of first hand knowledge of !
This one's gonna be close ! so far, so good

f.. Freddie Mac was established in 1970.

39 years to get it right and it's broke.


g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.  
32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.
(It does however provide a very "cushy" lifestyle to
16,000 bureaucrats…..all at taxpayer's expense.)
This monster is so big that shutting it down completely
would likely cause a recession !

So…. that's the Government's track record, from 1775 until the present;
Any major accomplishments that DID go well ? So far, we have prevailed
in most of the wars we've been in; at the moment, we have the best Army in history,
a very good Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps......(but that could change during the next 4 years)

Now, with this track record as "proof of it's expertise, government
now decides that it can better manage our entire health care system.

If you embrace the progressive mind-set, you no doubt believe
that "more government" is "better".

I believe government not only doesn't have the answer to the problem.
I believe government IS "the problem".


But that's just "my opinion" you say ? Yeah, it's my opinion, and it's based
on "what has worked", and worked pretty well; below are a few "facts"
that I base my opinion on; (just one example; there are many more)

Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March
17th) than Target sells all year.

4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target +Sears +
Costco + K-Mart combined.

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger and Safeway combined, and
keep in mind they did this in only fifteen years.

8. During this same period, 31 big supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.

9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.

10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are
Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had five years ago.

11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur
at Wal-Mart stores. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)

12. 90% of all Americans live within fifteen miles of a Wal-Mart.

The above information is from exhaustive research on the internet, and
my personal observation. (and a few more sources) You may not like Wal Mart; many don't;
I'm not suggesting that we should have Wal Mart take over and run the
Government; I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;
The government lacks efficiency at ANYTHING ! ( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

Another great example; Apple Computer…………you may prefer "PC's"'
again……it really doesn't matter what we as individuals "like" of "prefer";
it's about "what works" and "what doesn't work"; you don't need me to
remind you about Microsoft's "track record"………and you don't need me
point out how successful Apple has been; you can see both with your own
eyes!

All of this ranting and raving about Obama and Romney is really a
waste of time; If you still think Obama can do the job, after running up
six trillion in debt in less than 4 years, then vote for him. (and tell me you worry about Social Security!)
Afraid of "ruining Social Security ? I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;
you can just borrow so much money without paying it back; and you can only print
so much worthless paper money before people will be burning it for fuel; if you doubt that
I suggest you read about Germany, post WW 1.

I really didn't want to say this on a forum, because it violates a rule I
have with myself……..I don't like to criticize anyone's religion;
however…….I have read the entire history of the Church Of Latter
Day Saints…….and I've read much of the Book Of Mormon; I have
never felt that I would advocate someone who is Mormon to be the
POTUS; Under the present circumstances, I've changed my mind
about that. ( I really don't think Mitt Romney is out to "convert"
anyone to his religion. )

Regardless of who prevails in November, remember this: no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time.

That's my thoughts; You may now prove to me I'm wrong.

Charley


Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
134 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4382 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5638 times:

What is the point of comparing a for profit businesses to government programs or services?


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5629 times:

I find it incredibly ironic that in the same post you blast the poor for confiscating your money while all the while thanking your lucky stars you'll die before Medicare and Social Security run out. Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

Also while no fan of government post services, comparing FedEx to USPS is ridiculous. FedEx charges as much as they want and can decline to deliver something, USPS has to deliver to every address pretty much and charges 25c. Depends if you want an underclass of people without access to postage or not...


User currently offlinego3team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5586 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
74 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
71 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
45 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
44 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
39 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
32 years to get it right

I am going to go out on a limb and say that they are still not right.



Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2331 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Hello Geezer!  

I have my views on government and privately run businesses. And many government-run things are needed. I would love to hear your opinions if you let them run privately. Heck, the government could outsource the whole defense against military and terrorist threats to Blackwater and, for the case that they would fail, buy insurance on the free market.

It would be a real fun to watch.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.

It would be even worse if the postal services were privately run. In Switzerland, many offices were slashed and we are lucky if a town bigger than 1000 inhabitants still has one.

The problem isn't that something needs to be run efficiently and without a loss. The problem is defining a basic set of services that every citizen has a right to. As the U.S. is still a democratic country, most people seem to be happy with it.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
b.. Social Security was established in 1935.

74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.

I know what a Ponzi scheme is (and I've translated the Wikipedia article into German), but it only refers to investment. Social Security isn't one. And you know how broke Social Security is, while whoever runs a Ponzi scheme will withhold that information from you.

The Swiss AHV is also broke, and we discuss raising the eligibility age every year. It can build up reserves, but most of the money is spent at the same time - imagine how that'll work with all the baby boomers receiving pensions. 8.4% of my income goes to that AHV, and I do not want it (edit: the eligibility age) to be raised - the simple reason is that people in high-risk jobs (construction workers, builders) rarely reach the eligibility age (males 65 years of age, females 64), and I don't want to put them into a worse situation.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

e.. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.

44 years to get it right and it's STILL broke.

They are broke. 

But Medicare and Medicaid deliver the most medical care to the patients for the least amount of money! Try that with hospitals that your normal hospital and try to insure yourself without being employed or without drawing VA benefits or without governmental aid...

There are many things that will never fit into your views, but there are many things we are lucky to enjoy.

Edit: I often think of the first few words of the Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.


David

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:34:42]

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:37:44]

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:39:45]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

The majority of Wal-Mart employees qualify for government assistance (foodstamps, welfare, etc) because of their low wages. Wal-Mart is also the largest recipient of food stamps from its customers. Wal-Mart has aggressively lobbied to expand foodstamps even though it will increase government debt.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Any major accomplishments that DID go well ?

I guess putting a man on the moon was no accomplishment. You might want to tell Neil Armstrong's family that he accomplished nothing.

I guess building the largest interstate road network allowing for millions of businesses to thrive and grow was nothing. You know why Wal-Mart is successful, because they can easily ship goods across the country on a highway system that the government built!!

I guess managing the safest and largest (albeit not the most efficient) air traffic control system in the world is accomplishing nothing.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;

But you miss a critical point (that most conservatives miss), the government can take on projects that the private sector simply never would. Without government, there would be no military, no space program, no interstate highways, and no air traffic control because the risk of starting those programs was so high that the private sector would never touch them.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;

Social Security is easily fixable. Means test it so that the wealthy don't receive it and age adjust it a few years and Social Security would last FOREVER.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !

Because old people (like you!!!) insist on keeping it around. The only reason the USPS struggles is because a bunch of conservative, Republican congressmen demand it serve every money-losing podunk little rural town in America.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !

Bad example

Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to staff close to 10,000 offices in small towns which produce less than $50 income per day.

Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to send a truck by every address in the country six days a week.

To most actual voters in this nation - free delivery of mail is an ESSENTIAL GOVERNMENT SERVICE, not subject to the reqirements necessary to run a profitable business.

Now if Congress wants to vote to remove the requirements to serve rural America and small towns with daily mail service and free delivery - they are welcome to do that.

Then the USPS would be able to stop the deficit spending.

Of course most of those 535 people in Congress would be looking for new jobs after the next election. (Which would be a good thing in my opinion.)


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
b.. Social Security was established in 1935.

74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.
I'm real lucky on this one........it looks like it will "outlast" me....(barely)

I have no doubt that Social Security is a broken system, but you may want to check your definition of a Ponzi Scheme. A Ponzi Scheme would require an investment with promised incremental payouts to the investor. Social Security doesn't payout to the largest investors (those who pay the most tax) whatsoever.

Plus, a Ponzi Scheme requires vast amounts of fraud. If Social Security was that fraudulent, it wouldn't have lasted 74 years. All Ponzi Scemes come to a head sooner or later.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
d.. War on Poverty started in 1964

45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our
money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
The "poor" have always been with us and
they will ALWAYS be with us. ( there are many good
reasons for this, but that's another discussion for another time.)
( Poverty......only thing I can think of that may "outlast" bed rock ! )

I totally agree. Very few countries tackle poverty effectively. The two countries I've lived in (Canada and Australia) both have rather hypocritical (for lack of a better term) systems in place. We could probably start another thread on this topic alone.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.
32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.
(It does however provide a very "cushy" lifestyle to
16,000 bureaucrats…..all at taxpayer's expense.)
This monster is so big that shutting it down completely
would likely cause a recession !

Well there are a few factors that doom the Department of Energy no matter what they do:

1) Demand for oil in the US is consistently on the rise.
2) Lobbying has held back alternative-fuel development for years. (only now are we seeing hybrids and electric cars gaining traction)
3) Peak oil

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Wal-Mart
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;

Do you know why Walmart is so efficient? It's because they are an incredibly unethical business. If the government treated their employees the way Walmart treats theirs, there would be revolt.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

The Toronto District School Board just had a scandal like this as well. Mind-blowing how much contractors can take you to the cleaners if there aren't controls in place.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time

What do you consider to be a "significant" period of time?



Flying refined.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5419 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just a few item:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.


Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

Really? Not Apple?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

People in China speak English?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5413 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I believe government not only doesn't have the answer to the problem.
I believe government IS "the problem".

Are you suggesting that we need to outsource the Government to Wal-Mart?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March
17th) than Target sells all year.

4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target +Sears +
Costco + K-Mart combined.

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger and Safeway combined, and
keep in mind they did this in only fifteen years.

8. During this same period, 31 big supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.

9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.

10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are
Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had five years ago.

11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur
at Wal-Mart stores. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)

12. 90% of all Americans live within fifteen miles of a Wal-Mart.

Your love letter to Walmart., has NOTHING to do with proving that the Government is the problem. In fact, it pitches other private companies against Walmart - proving that other private companies are not successful.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
All of this ranting and raving about Obama and Romney is really a
waste of time;

Yet - here we are; in your post

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time.

Quick - mention a country without Government that has done a successful job?

For the last time:

GOVERNMENT IS NOT A BUSINESS, IT CANNOT BE SEEN AS SUCH



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
The above information is from exhaustive research on the internet, and
my personal observation.

Some how you have been able to do research and come up with a long post identical to a long circulated e-mail filled with bad 'facts' and unsupportable conclusions.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers?

The US Navy never paid $500 for a toilet seat. They paid $1,500 for a special build of an entire toilet enclosure for a P-3 aircraft after the production run was over and the stocks of spares was exhausted. That was a success of government procurement because Lockheed wanted $4,500 for the enclosure, and the Navy contracting officer challenged the price. Yes, it was listed as a 'toilet seat' because that is how the 7 foot tall by 3 ft wide by 28 inches deep item is described in the aircraft parts list.

The $150 hammer was a special alloy required for use in environments filled with possibly explosive gasses. It required custom alloys, special testing and certification. Yes it was expensive. Protecting the lives of our military troops often requires expensive items.

You've just quoted two completely false fictions invented by the media as fact. Perhaps more exhaustive research is in order.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

Wal-Mart - you left out some facts.

1. The biggest employer of illegal aliens in the United States through their 'contractor' system.

2. The biggest drain on Medicaid of any company in the US due to their low wages and limited medical coverage options.

Wal-Mart cost every taxpayer in the US for subsidizing many of their employees with Medicaid and Food Stamps.

Wal-Mart is great for shareholders and as bad as the War on Poverty for taxpayers.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Agree 100%, seriously.

But I do love how the older generation has suddenly come to the realization that the big wasteful government that they built, maintained, and are feeding off at this very moment is 'no good'. A day late and a buck short I'd say.

If you feel so strongly about this, then I suggest that you don't cash your Social Security checks and don't accept any government medical benefits. That's pretty much all you can do to help at this point.

[Edited 2012-08-28 07:48:27]

User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8795 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.

We deserted them when people started thinking that "promote the general Welfare" meant "providing for the general Welfare". Promoting the general welfare means setting up the foundations, such as a legal system where contract law will be enforced (so that people can do business). If you read the Federalist Papers (unfortunately no longer taught in school - back in the 50s high school students would spend 6 months on the Federalist Papers), it is very clear that "promote the general Welfare" did not mean actually giving you stuff, redistribution of wealth etc.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11536 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
I guess managing the safest and largest (albeit not the most efficient) air traffic control system in the world is accomplishing nothing.

So that for-profit companies like FedEx and UPS can make profits. Let's see them build their own airports, hire their own controllers, set up their own guideance and see how profitable they are.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Social Security is easily fixable. Means test it so that the wealthy don't receive it and age adjust it a few years and Social Security would last FOREVER.

Also, stop the politicians from writing IOUs from the SS fund.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

To for-profit companies trying to make even more money?

Companies like Wal-Mart, UPS, Black & Decker are there to make profits first and serve the consumer second. Unlike the government who, per the Constitution (which you say you love so much) is there for WE THE PEOPLE and not for profit.

Seems you have a problem with profit and greed, Geezer.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
That's my thoughts; You may now prove to me I'm wrong.

Your biggest problem is that you do not understand why we need governments. You complain about many things they do, which is fine. What isn’t fine is that you fail to understand why they do them and provide real alternatives.

You highlight private companies as examples of how it should be done. You completely miss the point that companies have one single task; put as much money as possible in their owner’s pockets. I’m not against that, it is how I make my living.

What you fail to consider is that companies are not interested in the good of anyone else. Everything they do is for the benefit of them. Nothing wrong so far because it means that as long as there is competition everyone benefits.

The problem is that there are many important things that are neglected in the company model. Companies do not care about the consequences their actions have on others. They do not care about employees's health. They do not care about what happens to their employee's when they no longer work there. They do not care about depletion of resources. They do not care about environmental effects.

This is why we need governments. To make sure everyone’s needs are considered. To balance the needs and rights of everyone, not just a few.

If you’re with me this far then we can start talking about how to make government more efficient.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5349 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

Really? Not Apple?

Apple is the most valuable, but by no means the largest.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

People in China speak English?

I'm sure your comment is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but all those manufacturers in China don't actually work for Walmart.

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):
You completely miss the point that companies have one single task; put as much money as possible in their owner’s pockets.

  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2989 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Companies like Wal-Mart, UPS, Black & Decker are there to make profits first and serve the consumer second

Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed. GM would be one right off the top of my head.

I am no particular fan of Walmart either, they are what they are, I get to vote every time I go shopping. No one at this point is forcing me to shop at Walmart.

Okie


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2331 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):

If you mean setting up foundations upon which the citizen can thrive (like the aforementioned legal system), I would be surprised if education, communication (like postal service and public roads) and healthcare wouldn't be meant by it. I agree with you if you say that the government has to fund and operate basic services.

I know that redistribution of wealth is a touchy subject here , but solidarity among citizen was, and I hope it still is, one of the core values of the U.S. More interesting than a crude wealth redistribution would be a tax on transferring money across country borders, thus forcing individuals and enterprises to spend and invest money at home. I have nothing against rich people, but seeing their money being invested in Asia and other emerging regions and seeing jobless people getting foodstamps in NY is bitter and unpatriotic.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed

I see where you're coming from but you put the cart in front of the horse. The drive for the company is profit. A smart company realize they make more money by treating their customers well.

The company is always first. Customer gets what is good for the company.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11536 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

Let's follow this logic through:

Federal government quits welfare of any kind. No food stamps, no WIC, no rental assistance, no assistance for college. There are billions wasted every month on corporate welfare, but let's keep it simple.

No food stamps for families means that minimum wage job they are working because the factory with the good paying job shut down and either decided not to reopen or moved to China can not pay the high rent (rental companies have to make a profit) and car payment (bank and car companies making profit) and utilities (water, gas, electric). "Oh, well, they can move" except they can not save any money to pay deposit at a smaller and cheaper place. "Sell the car" default on the loan and have no way to get to work. Transit would not work because government assisstance has been cut so mass transit is for-profit.

How long do you think a middle class family would survive?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2331 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5317 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed. GM would be one right off the top of my head.

I'd say that companies are interested in serving the customer if and only if there is money to earn. There are many, many things where customers could be made happy, but the business case for it is abysmal. For example, having a national company that carries out SAR by helicopter would be great. Which "customer" wouldn't want such a service?

If you can't look after your customers while ensuring your profits, you close your business and save what's left of the company's funds.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6539 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

EDF-GDF (Electricité de France-Gaz de France) was a state run utility company in France with no private competition. It owned every dam, nuclear power station, etc., and also provided natural gas to homes.

Since its privatization, it has been very successful as a company, buying utilities across Europe (it was a major sponsor of the London Olympics), providing good revenues to shareholders. Government agencies also allowed the company to keep its nuclear reactors running decades longer than what they were build for, a benefit of at least 100 billions euros. Of course, there is no private insurance in case of an accident, it will still be the taxpayer on the hook.

Consumers, on the other hand, see electricity and gas prices rise each year, several times a year even, and that's with the government still having a say on the matter and limiting the hikes, soon that will not be legal anymore. As far as I know water in dams is free, and uranium is cheap and doesn't account much in the cost of providing nuclear energy anyway.

At this point even right wing people regret the old public company, and both extreme right and extreme left parties' platforms include buying it back !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.

Better question, who funded the defense departement that funded Berkely where ARPANET was created? The forerunner of the internet?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.

At the expense of the very envireonment we live in, Private companies will ignore alternatives that are not immediately cheaper. Government has a role here.
Ozone, PFC's, DDT, Benzene, Lead, asbestos, coal emmissions, wastewater runoff, and many other isuses.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Another great example; Apple Computer…………you may prefer "PC's"'
again……it really doesn't matter what we as individuals "like" of "prefer";

Who funded ENIAC? The government of WW2 and beyond funded computers and development long before industry made them cheap and affordable in the 80's.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Afraid of "ruining Social Security ? I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;

It's not ruined. It needs to be adjusted, but that is due to advances in healthcare and services that keep folks that are beyond working years around quite a bit longer than they used to be. But we could do away with those services and see what happens? Is that what you propose?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
six trillion in debt in less than 4 years, then vote for him

Would you prefer the bailouts didn't happen, that folks didn't get government assistance? Would you prefer folks gave up on this country since it gave up on them and resort to violence to get what they need to survive?

Would you prefer to remember that of that 6 trillion in debt, 90% of it was guaranteed due to existing laws? Probably not. you would prefer to label it a vast liberal conspiracy berift of the cpnsequences involving actions of cutting taxes in 2001 , and going to war in 2001 and 2003 , With a housing bubble to complicate it all.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
huge, complex economy for

Here you say the key words. Huge and complex. In this world with multiplle needs. Complexity truly escapes the folks that try to oversimplify.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.

Yes America was finished the day that the meaning of promote the general welfare of the Union became provide for the general welfare of individuals with someone else's money



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2331 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):

The poor are always educated using somebody else's money. The poors' health is sustained using somebody else's money. Redistribution is always taking place in one form or another. Not sharing your success with your fellow citizen is, in my opinion, like a secession from the rest of the country.

In Germany, the rich do not whine - and we even have "Sozialpflicht" (social duty) in the constitution. Private property is respected, but it has to be used in a manner that benefits the common good.

And believe me, welfare is provided to the well-off. We could have let the failed banks rot and collapse, but we decided otherwise. Our "help" for Greece is mainly helping that country to pay interest to German and French banks, not helping that country run hospitals and schools.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
25 2707200X : Ever since Ronald Reagan said "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem", the right has been making the argument to shri
26 Post contains images Ken777 : The Post Office isn't "broke", but it is cash starved - a deliberate act of Congress. Guess which political party is pushing hard to get them out. Fe
27 cmf : It is hard for many to admit but the main reason welfare is needed is because companies are not paying people enough. It doesn't make sense that the
28 Post contains images WestJet747 : Well if there wasn't money to earn, the company wouldn't exist in the first place... I think you misunderstand the point being made. Nothing was said
29 SmittyOne : The government takes my money and uses it to directly support people on Food Stamps etc. The government also takes my money and spends it on agencies
30 GEEZER : This "experiment" is turning out just as I suspected it would; it has already caused a bunch of people to respond, some of which do have some good ide
31 SmittyOne : You can count on one hand the number of people in Washington, DC that have a genuine interest in a smaller, leaner government that collects and spend
32 casinterest : But this is where I disagree. The WH is not the end all be all of the issues we are in. They are the executive branch. Congress has more to do with w
33 Post contains images ER757 : Then you don't live as far in the boonies as you think you do Bingo! Here's how it should work - you are on welfare and you have a kid? OK, things ha
34 Post contains images casinterest : But, wait.... That might require Birth Control, Abortion, or Adoption services that would cost the government money . And out of those three, which i
35 Aesma : I'd say he and Thatcher had a strong influence around the world, mostly for the worst. Now, I don't know how much Reagan shrunk the government, if at
36 Post contains links flyingturtle : I've always wondered how lowered taxes would spur economic growth. High taxes make it harder to run a business, but not impossible. And even in the m
37 StarAC17 : People forget that postal services have an obligation to serve everyone and often people of the OP's age group are probably not as tech savvy to rece
38 cupraibiza : Maybe a tour of Mogadishu is in order. There has been no functioning government in Somalia for the last 20 years.
39 seb146 : Actually.... it is.... Sadly, people like Mitt Romney have shipped jobs over seas thinking it helps America because the individual (Romney) gets HUGE
40 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : This isn't a socialist thought. It is basic economy. Most if not all of the money given to a welfare aid recipient will be spent locally and almost i
41 Post contains images windy95 : But that is where we differ. I do share my success with my fellow citizens. But I share with the charity of my choice not the charity or YOUR choice.
42 casinterest : But the federal government, state Governments and Local Goverments do find themselves involvedin it. , as the failure by these folks to use birth con
43 Post contains images WestJet747 : What you propose is taking away the wealth from the job creators. Let's see how long they stick around under this "trickle up" plan. I liked Cracked.
44 SmittyOne : I can't really argue with that - you could make a very long list of state powers and responsibilities that have been taken usurped. Of course empower
45 KiwiRob : That'as not true Walmart is smaller than ExxonMobile and Royal Dutch Shell. Which is odd because withy the advent of internet shopping many postal se
46 mt99 : In the US most (?) package deliveries seem to go to UPS and FedEx, The post office used to handle bill payments, which can be done automatically or v
47 Post contains links LMP737 : You're going to vote for a republican becaue you think that they will fix the mess we are currently in? Here's a bit of news for you, we are in the m
48 GEEZER : Congress has more to do with where we are then anything else. It is easier to lay the blame at the WH, as it is one person. 535 folks are much harder
49 LMP737 : And who controlled the House and Senate for six of the eight years of the Bush Administration? What excuse do the republicans have for exploding the
50 seb146 : That is one reason. However, let's not forget all those people who had good jobs and could support their kids with that good job. But, then, good job
51 windy95 : How about answering the questions asked? And no the unemployment rate has not DROPPED since 2008.
52 PPVRA : Somalia has been fighting a war for all those years, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison, eh? And before that, they were communist...
53 ER757 : No, but the USPS still delivers to all those little podunk towns. Just because they don't have an office there doesn't mean they don't serve the area
54 casinterest : Organizing reports from various administrations to prioritize what needs to be looked at. Don't forget their are cabinet postions, there are secretar
55 FlyPNS1 : And most American's lived in abject poverty during that time. There's a tendency by conservatives to glamorize early America. But the reality was tha
56 cupraibiza : The OP as far as i can tell is pushing for dramatically less government. I am not saying its an apples to apples comparison. Just highlighting an ext
57 Post contains images Ken777 : Depends on the company, their design skills and their ability to demand volume discounts. Apple brought in a real pro when it comes to operations and
58 PPVRA : You're implying that what has happened in Somalia is because of little government, when in fact the government in place collapsed because of the war.
59 seb146 : Oh, that's right... I forgot right-wing math... 12% (Under Bush) - 8% (Under Obama) = increase. I forgot. Forgive me. We hate Obama and everything he
60 Ken777 : When you look at the "unemployment" situation be sure to look at jobs that have been lost, or created in the US. The size of the labor market is grow
61 GEEZER : How do you know all these thousands of post offices still exist ? Have you counted them recently ? I can show you three of them that, even though the
62 flyingturtle : Freerider problem anyone? If the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation already shells out millions to fight diseases in the less developed countries do
63 DarkSnowyNight : This is exactly why they simply can't be trusted . So far, we're 0 for 2 on social issues/priorities and economic relevance. Hell, they can't even fi
64 flyingturtle : Yeah, that's where solidarity has to kick in. And when you are unfit to drive, well... The village where my mother has her weekend home is served by
65 DarkSnowyNight : The Washington DC MetroRail was built with that mindset. In 1975, it did not exist. Today, it is 2nd only to NY (In the US at any rate) for number of
66 FlyPNS1 : And why is that the government's fault that someone chose to live in the boonies? And as you have repeatedly told us, there's FedEx and UPS, so these
67 PPVRA : It's also a myth that early America was somehow more of a free market economy than today. States were all powerful and they did, indeed, have a lot o
68 FlyPNS1 : Comparative to today, not really. While there was indeed some significant tariffs added, regulation was quite minimal. Safety, labor and environmenta
69 PPVRA : Other economic regulations, like price caps, were practiced. The privately built and owned turnpikes in the northeastern US comes to mind as examples
70 seb146 : Contrary to what the right-wingers on this board think, I actually like some policies of some of the true Republicans like the two senators from Main
71 Post contains images Ken777 : Get rid of the GOP laws that drain the PO of cash and you might actually see solid financial performance. Conservatives simply want to kill the PO, j
72 Post contains links flyingturtle : I've tried to download that study... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12425333 Well, the paper isn't concerned with about why the plant failed (alth
73 PPVRA : How is that a free rider problem? You're not benefiting from the Gates Foundation.
74 Post contains images Ken777 : Depends on the company, their design skills and their ability to demand volume discounts. Apple brought in a real pro when it comes to operations and
75 PPVRA : If pricing is indeed to be deregulated as you seem to imply, you should expect a price increase for a while. This will drive profits up, which will a
76 flyingturtle : You're not understanding it. Rich person A thinks, well, I've profited much, I've had luck, and I give my money to charity. I'll fund education for e
77 Post contains links SKYSERVICE_330 : Mrs. Obammy? ...classy. FactCheck.org says you are wrong: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/michelle-obamas-staff/ Mrs. Obama employed approximately 2
78 GEEZER : Hey...........hold it just a minute; A. You're damn right I'm a conservative ! B. "I started crying.....?" I hardly think that stating a fact that's
79 Post contains images flyingturtle : You're describing George W. Bush?
80 SKYSERVICE_330 : A few things: 1) I never used the word "only" in my post and at no time did I express a value judgement on the size of her staff as being too big or
81 Ken777 : Of course you're not going to be concerned about the environmental impact, or standards. Pure laze-faire mentality could care less how polluted the a
82 Smittyone : Most accurate and hilarious thing I've heard in weeks...well played. I think we're just getting trolled here by a guy with too much time on his hands
83 GEEZER : No, you didn't use the word "only", I did; but you DID do a marvelous job of making my point for me, namely that this arrogant woman has squandered o
84 PPVRA : Rich person B will analyze what Rich person A is doing and decide if more help is needed or not. If not, then Rich person B can devote their money el
85 PPVRA : Which of course is a blatant lie that you should be ashamed for repeating. LOL! They can sit on it if they want, but it's just gonna attract new entr
86 SmittyOne : The only thing that saved President Bush from being figuratively dragged through the streets Mussolini-style was the fact that it was politically unf
87 Post contains images WestJet747 : Sorry, but you still haven't proven any of these things. Do you have any references we can check? Any links? Any quantifiable statistics? You said it
88 Post contains images Ken777 : It can be, but Apple's investments have paid off in the past. I believe that they were very smart in projecting their component needs and who they wo
89 DarkSnowyNight : Conservation of their own wealth, yes. No, I think there's a lot of truth to that. It's almost never a conservative initiative to be environmentally
90 Post contains links PPVRA : Read this: http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-...ifference-1-million-at-a-time.html If you are talking about government-sponsored environmental legi
91 Ken777 : And who else can do it well? You really believe that you can put all that in the hands of private industry and have a better outcome? Maybe you shoul
92 PPVRA : You imply that the government is doing it well. The government you envision - and the one we have - works through pressure of different interest grou
93 petertenthije : Greenpeace have no where near the (financial) resources of any oil company. If you really want the market to run its course, then ANWAR would logical
94 PPVRA : A problem that perhaps would not exist had the original conservation groups acquired the land, rather than sought government-protection. In any case,
95 DarkSnowyNight : But that Horse is already out of the Barn, as it were.... I certainly agree, in principle. However I do not think that's all that practical in terms
96 mt99 : "Privatize" is a different animal. It implies that the start of it was from the government using tax money. The Governments started it, the private i
97 PPVRA : What are you talking about? No.
98 mt99 : That "privatized" companies start being governmental entities, which in turn are initially funded by taxes. Then what are you saying?
99 PPVRA : I wasn't talking about companies, but rather water rights - straight out of rivers, creeks and lakes. Exactly what I wrote in that reply is what I me
100 Post contains links mt99 : Incomplete thoughts then? Let try this again - direct question this time: If there was no regulation would thalidomide been released? Then you must n
101 PPVRA : Nope. Try getting the context in. Probably. Wikipedia says it's still in use today. Sure they also privatized those. But that's not what I was referr
102 mt99 : Ok. let continue this, another direct question: Do you think that the drug should continue to be sold? But it does! You needed the government to make
103 PPVRA : Apparently, yes. Just because that's what has usually happens does not mean it's the only way to do it. There are numerous examples of private invest
104 mt99 : SO you don't care about people who where affected by birth defects? I hope you misread my question. But not in Chile, not in the water Privatization
105 PPVRA : Of course I care about them. But I also care about the people who may be using this drug for other diseases. I am not aware of one in Chile. But, my
106 Post contains images Ken777 : I use a lot of government services and they are pretty decent. Starting with the Interstate System. I can get on a freeway about a mile from my house
107 PPVRA : 1. We were talking about environmental stuff, why are you drifting away from the topic? 2. Interstates are clogged and often in disrepair. It works e
108 mt99 : There is a private Ocean? Where? You have some examples? Did that happen in Chile?
109 PPVRA : Not oceans. The other stuff yes. The liberalization part? Yes, at least to a greater extent than some other examples.
110 Dreadnought : Actually most of the ones I know were private, got expropriated (with or without their owners being compensated), and then privatized again once it's
111 Post contains images SmittyOne : Unfortunately, that comes right from page one of the "Internet Combat Manual". When person A makes a particular argument or suggests a given course o
112 mt99 : Funny. The ones i know of where funded by taxes and then turned over to private companies, which in turn did a much better job that the government wo
113 Post contains images Ken777 : Happy Birthday! Of course there is - and you'll remember it in a quarter of a century. At 41 you can enjoy it more than you can at 66.
114 Post contains images SmittyOne : Sad but true! Of course I will also have been a far more handsome and intelligent 41 year old when I'm 66 than I actually am now Thanks Ken -
115 seb146 : Because that is what the right screams about all the time. Eleminate all government assistance for the poor and elderly, eleminate postal service, el
116 Dreadnought : Evidence please? I have never heard of any of these, with the exception of the postal service - which I think even you would agree is becoming more a
117 AirframeAS : That's changing as we speak, with the repairs, along with the bridges. Look up the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act of 2009. Colorado has done
118 Dreadnought : Only about 8% of the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act of 2009 went to infrastructure. The rest went to pay current bills, unemployment, teacher
119 Post contains links mt99 : A crap load went to "Tax Incentives" - the #1 cost it seems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...estment_Act_of_2009#Tax_incentives Is this proof t
120 Dreadnought : Those were tax credits, not tax cuts. Tax credits are givaways, and do not, as far as I can tell, create any significant positive effect on the econo
121 Ken777 : Funny thing that. For years we have been getting significant increases in health care because of the need to pay for those who cannot. Over the years
122 seb146 : Ummmm.... what??? Oh, wait... the right-wing has a different math standard than the rest of the world... Like on wars that had no basis for beginning
123 Dreadnought : What do you think stimulus is? It is nothing more than spending more than you bring in (assuming all the money stays in the country). It's a way of g
124 PPVRA : Indeed. It's also odd to read comments basically equating a free market condition to a free for all, despite the well known "free for all" issues ass
125 LMP737 : Example please.
126 Post contains links starbuk7 : Why a Democrat or Republican Congress won't be able to pass a budget. It can't be explained any easier than this. Click please: Why Congress Does Not
127 PPVRA : I already gave one: Chile.
128 Post contains images Ken777 : 9/11 was not the reason for the unnecessary invasion. Bush/Cheney used non-existing WMDs as their excuse, but basically you had 2 oilmen drooling at
129 LMP737 : I'm talking about here in the United States. What works in one country might not work in another, either due to cultural differences or different law
130 Dreadnought : That's funny, because Bush/Cheney had control over those oilfields for 5 years, and got how many barrels? Oh yes, NONE. The whole war for oil thing w
131 Post contains links Dreadnought : Back to the subject. A video played at the DNC convention contained the line “Government is the only thing that we all belong to. We’re part of di
132 starbuk7 : Gee, we did not find any WMD's that we knew that they had because Saddam sent them all to Syria so we would not find them. Now Syria is threatening t
133 FlyPNS1 : And no where in the clip you presented says otherwise. The government (at whatever level) is the only thing we all have a say in through our vote. No
134 Flaps : I often wonder how many of our elected officials have any understanding or respect for that paragraph. Few seem to show it and I wouldn't be surprise
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