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Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..  
User currently offlinevarigb707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

No end on those shootings. It's a shame the way we're living these days. My heart goes out to everyone.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...in-shooting-at-nj-supermarket?lite

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Where did the hell did he get an AK-47 from ? Don't tell me you can obtain one legally  


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Don't tell me you can obtain one legally

Sure can , looks like you can get one for about $900.


User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Where did the hell did he get an AK-47 from ? Don't tell me you can obtain one legally

You do realize there is a significant difference between a battlefront AK-47 and one sold in the US. Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic. But hey, believe what the press wants to you believe, that all AK's are horrible lead hoses.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
Sure can , looks like you can get one for about $900.

900 would be a steep price for an AK, IMO.

So the guy went crazy, killed 2 people and himself. Probably would have killed more had he decided to use his vehicle as a weapon than an AK-47. But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic.

It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4317 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.

Nearly never done, and highly illegal. This is taken very seriously by the Feds. You will go to prison. By your reasoning all evil looking semi automatic guns can easily be converted to full auto. Wrong.

Find me one story that involves a crime being committed by a fully automatic AK47 in the US ever, if you're going to imply its easy then prove your point.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
900 would be a steep price for an AK, IMO.

For a decent AK they are running that now. The Romanian WASRs are about half that. But they have stamped not milled receivers.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4306 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic.

It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.

Nope. There are several key components, namely the safety sear, missing from the semi-auto version and the attachment parts are not there either. It would require some pretty accurate machining on the receiver to get them fitted for fully automatic parts, not something you can do quickly with your hand drill. It would be easier to build a fully automatic AK from the scratch.

And the US have something called "contructive intent". This means if the cops find the parts and e.g. a machinist´s drawing for the illegal conversion with you, but no illegal gun yet, they can get you the same as if you had made an illegal gun already.

The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.
And legal ones take a lot of legal hoops to jump through since 1934.

Jan


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4300 times:

Tragic story and it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47 but this isn't "one" of those shootings again. 2 innocent people were killed not 12, and not 12 completely random people. The majority of homicides in the U.S. something around 80% or so are between two people who know each other. So tragic story yes. Something to say look at where we are living? No.
Why no? Because this stuff has been happening for a long time, this type of situtation is nothing new unfortunately. If you just realized it well then what can I say, you've been lucky not to notice them before I guess.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4287 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
And the US have something called "contructive intent". This means if the cops find the parts and e.g. a machinist´s drawing for the illegal conversion with you, but no illegal gun yet, they can get you the same as if you had made an illegal gun already.

I was at a range with a buddy once and we were firing a couple of older AR15's. One of the rifles "multi-fired", i.e. 2 rounds discharged on a single trigger pull. My friend immediately cleared the weapon, pulled the upper, popped the pins on the lower and gutted it. He then tossed all the lower components (sans lower) in separate trash cans and called it a day.

It seems, that the BATFE will prosecute you for having a "machine gun" even if it's just a malfunctioning semi-auto. Will they win? Who knows, but why risk it?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.

You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
I was at a range with a buddy once and we were firing a couple of older AR15's. One of the rifles "multi-fired", i.e. 2 rounds discharged on a single trigger pull.

I've never heard of a slam fire on an AR, did he clean the gun regularly? That's a common problem with surplus SKSs. It took me a very long time to get the cosmoline out of my SKS bolt/firing pin so that wouldn't happen.

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Tragic story and it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47 but this isn't "one" of those shootings again.

It's more a problem with workplace violence. The shooting in NYC was similar to this.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.

You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.

They can as well build their own guns. I know you live in Norway. Check with your local resistance museum about the secretly mass produced copies of the British Sten Submachine guns in Norway during WW2. A lot were made by a resistance underground group called Milorg right under the noses of the Gestapo (more than thousand were made).
If I want a live gun and I don´t care about breaking laws I can get one any time.

Jan


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.

Still waiting for you to show me one time a fully automatic AK was used in a violent crime here in the US. Feel free to use other fully automatic weapons to prove your point. The last one I know of happened in 1992.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently onlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1935 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 12):
Still waiting for you to show me one time a fully automatic AK was used in a violent crime here in the US. Feel free to use other fully automatic weapons to prove your point. The last one I know of happened in 1992.

The North Hollywood shootout in 1997.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4186 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
So the guy went crazy, killed 2 people and himself. Probably would have killed more had he decided to use his vehicle as a weapon than an AK-47. But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

I've asked this many times before on gun-related threads, and have never got a reasonable answer, so I'll try again. Vehicles provide a widespread utility to society that far outweighs any deaths caused by them, accidental or otherwise. What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?

I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 13):
The North Hollywood shootout in 1997.

So, we're still talking about a criminal offense that happened 15 years ago. This doesn't happen often. And, in your example the only two deaths in that event were the two perpetrators of the crime.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):
I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being. Perhaps its just how Americans vs the rest of the world think/are raised. I grew up learning how to shoot properly and have zero problems with law abiding citizens owning firearms.

The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7979 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

These gun threads are getting as annoying as the thousands of Sarah Palin threads back in 2008-2009... I don't think anyone is changing their opinions and we're really beating a dead horse here. RIP to the victims.


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 10):
I've never heard of a slam fire on an AR, did he clean the gun regularly? That's a common problem with surplus SKSs. It took me a very long time to get the cosmoline out of my SKS bolt/firing pin so that wouldn't happen.

I don't think it was a slam fire, per-se. I'm thinking more along the lines of a worn disconnector or a spring somewhere. He really didn't even bother looking for a cause. Disassemble and trash.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

Not to mention the non-law abiding.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Apparently the shooter was a former US Marine, discharged after less than 2 years service. He also may have had psychological issues including depression. He was 23 years old, lived in the same town as where he did hid deed, he apparently had gone home to get his guns.. He was working at the supermarket where the shooting took place for less than 2 weeks, an uncle worked for the same supermarket company. He allegedly wore 'camo' during his shooting. One of his victims was only 18 years old and just graduated from high school. The store was closed at the time to customers, those inside were doing stocking and cleaning work. No word yet if the guns were legally obtained or if he had the proper licenses.
Sadly, this may be another case of someone with mental health or psychological problems and access to guns.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47

Do you know what would have made a difference?: If he didn't have a gun of any sort.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):

And, there was a high school shooting in Perry Hall, Md. on the first day of school last MOnday. I didn't see it in a thread here.

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):

  



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):

You do realize there is a significant difference between a battlefront AK-47 and one sold in the US.

Sure. Not a lot of difference in how much kinetic energy a bullet downloads to its target, however.

For the record, I have enough (just enough) experience with full auto vs semi to know that full-auto is essentially useless anyway. You get an aimed first shot, and the next two that might get close to their targets, and then after that recoil effect takes over and one tends to "rock and roll" all over the place. IMHO, the danger (and hence illegality) of full auto weapons is much more a matter of errant shots winding up all over who knows where than being able to mow down a specific crowd.

I think we all know that a well made semi-auto is far more deadly, in that accuracy, as well as conservation of ammo is greatly improved.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

And the gun lovers will try to tell us that somehow the solution to gun violence is either A. nothing, or B. more guns.

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
The majority of homicides in the U.S. something around 80% or so are between two people who know each other.

Oh good. They had it coming.


Seriously though, this is an interesting phonomenon, where we believe something like this (and I'm not, by the way, debating the accuracy if this) and leap to the conclusion that the act is indeed, not random, and that the victims had a clue something wasn't right. By saying it's not really random, we feel safer, knowing that the crazies in our lives either don't exist or are well controlled.

The truth is that even if you get murdered, and knew your assailant, there's a very good chance you didn't see this coming. To me, this makes it every bit as random as an act of terror, or an accident. Of course after such an incident there are great bunches of "warning signs" from the attacker, but I think the truth is closer to the fact that nearly everyone exhibits something that can be taken for such at some points in their lives.

This certainly doesn't make everyone out there automatically guilty before the fact by any means. But I feel it sides more with "random" than not.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):

I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually %u201Cwrite off%u201D deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

It isn't because they want to be jerks. It's that they don't want their guns taken away (regardless of the obvious benefits to the greater good), and also by calling everything bad that happens an accident, or crime of passion, we're alleviated of the responsibility involved. To a man, every gun owner claims to be responsible and "safe." Now we know this is either a lie, or an inaccuracy. Gun owners (legally or otherwise) constitute 100% of the perpetrators of gun violence. Since it's impossible to get away from that fact, the next best thing is to assume that people who commit acts of gun violence are somehow stupider, more prone to violence, have more issues, or are more neglectful than average. Anything but accepting the possibility that they themselves could ever go down that road. An indignant "Well I would never do that. In fact, if I had a gun at that time/place, I'd be a hero now, you'll see" is usually the response.

I'd like to think that most such people would be deeply affected by such a tragedy.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 15):

So, we're still talking about a criminal offense that happened 15 years ago. This doesn't happen often. And, in your example the only two deaths in that event were the two perpetrators of the crime.

Good. So we can extrapolate then that if we tightened the laws up some more WRT semi-autos & assault weapons then we'd have a better record still.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):

Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being.

Possible. But that doesn't mean we're obligated to stand by and make it easy for them either.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):

The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

I think we can allow the ownership of breach and muzzle loading weapons only and still be way inside the 2nd amendment. To be honest, Law enforcement having firearms and me not scares me far less than the myriad other things they can already do that I cannot. Particularly, everything in the Patriot Act.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
These gun threads are getting as annoying as the thousands of Sarah Palin threads back in 2008-2009...

Then don't post here. I probably run across about a dozen threads a week that I consider inane, stupid, repetitive, fill in the blank; whatever it is I feel is beneath me. But I haven't yet felt the need to pontificate about it. People like to talk about things. Sometimes a lot. In fact, I'd wager that if there were to be another 8 threads on this subject, you'd probably see Fr8mech and myself in all of them. Using those two as examples, I think we're well aware we won't change one another's minds. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he has to say about what I had to say. People like to debate stuff, and there's no harm in doing so here. If you have a problem with that, I'll bet real money that no one here will lose sleep if you were to simply take a pass on reading and then complaining about it.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):
I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms.

Correction:
The deaths are not caused by firearms. The deaths are caused by mentally instable people or criminals.

Jan


User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

Why do we keep haveing repeated threads about shootings in the US ? Its not as if they are rare occurences, when I was in the SU last month the local news featured a fatal shooting more or less every day, and that was in relatively safe Florida. Why don't we all agree to wait for a really big massacre before commenting again, and not one of these minor distrubances               

25 Post contains images soon7x7 : I find it most interesting that a great many of these cases involve individuals that were currently being treated for depression/anxiety, disorders,
26 MD11Engineer : I think that in the medium run there will have to be changes in the US. While I don´t think a toal ban on guns is desirable, I see something like a d
27 fr8mech : Let's look at his, because, as a responsible gun owner, this is my biggest concern and I see no clear answer. When we legally purchase a firearm from
28 Post contains images cmf : Great post! Because the big massacres are not the big problem. Most of them are planned and they would largely happen anyway, at least until we can c
29 fr8mech : But, we are not other developed countries, are we? Nor, do I think we want to be. Say what you want, but American culture is different. We think and
30 cmf : Of course we can compare different nations, it is done all the time. Stop hiding behind being different. Do what we do everywhere else we see somethi
31 fr8mech : Of course it is. That's why I gave that to you as a choice. Go ahead and try to change the culture. Good luck. I think you're going to have a real ha
32 cmf : Isn't that the typical last hurrah before things start to change quickly? Slavery, women's suffrage, segregation, the list goes on. It is time to acc
33 pvjin : Semi automatic or not, having heavy weapons (other than hunting ones) being legally and easily available to public is pure madness. Though sure these
34 Maverick623 : There's also no end on drunk driving deaths, but we don't see a thread about it everytime it happens. No kidding.
35 airtechy : Because of the Treyvon shooting near here, a motorcycle group whose meetings I attend have had many gun discussions. I have given up on the idea that
36 canoecarrier : In the two instances you mentioned the kids were safe. There's a big difference between having a gun in the house and shooting someone that's in your
37 Post contains links KiwiRob : I'd say the kids were lucky. Some other kids who weren't so lucky http://www.newson6.com/story/1910557...ly-shoots-herself-with-parents-gun http://ww
38 jetmech : How many "law abiding" gun owners have flipped in the heat of the moment, and reached for the closest and most effective tool at their disposal (i.e.
39 DarkSnowyNight : Not only that, there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving. This removes a good deal of the parallels there.
40 Post contains images KiwiRob : About all I can think of is some chicks look really hot with a gun!
41 MD11Engineer : What about doing something about these people? E.g. lots of homeless actually have mental problems. But mental treatment has often been cut back due
42 DiamondFlyer : Considering just a week or so ago, in NYC, a man shot and killed another man, only hitting the intended target, while law enforcement managed to shoo
43 GEEZER : It's more like "within the realm of possibility", and then ONLY if one happens to be a competent gunsmith, have access to parts, machine tools, ete e
44 Maverick623 : You both completely, and totally, missed the point. Let me phrase it another way: We don't see a thread demanding alcoholic beverages be banned every
45 DarkSnowyNight : Read what you're writing. Alcohol consumption isn't the problem. Operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated is. Separate the two, and again, there i
46 BMI727 : People used to. And then we tried it. It didn't work.
47 GEEZER : I'm afraid I'm unable to understand exactly what you mean by "there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving........why on earth would anyone w
48 cmf : Start them if you feel they are missing. Why are pro gunners only thinking binary? There is a big area between all free and all banned. Just as the a
49 windy95 : Your opinion Drugs, alcohol and cars create far more devastation and risk to Americans but I do not see you create threads for evey accident that hap
50 Yellowstone : Your post seems to contradict itself. First you say that the problem with drunk driving isn't having alcohol, it's doing something dangerous with alc
51 ROSWELL41 : Everyone: Nothing will change in the US. Guns are here to stay. This is a mere academic discussion.
52 cmf : I can't tell you what changes will happen, but I can guarantee there will be changes. Nothing is constant.
53 KiwiRob : If there weren't firearms involved there wouldn't be deaths by firearm would there, it's a moot point.
54 Post contains links Maverick623 : No, you read what you're writing, because frankly, it makes no sense. First you say there is a problem, but then you say there isn't. Which is it? Or
55 ALTF4 : LOL. We use the same argument for allowing guns legally... do you really think the nutjobs who shoot people really care it is illegal to shoot people
56 jetmech : You make the huge assumption that you would have done better in the situation. Nope, I believe you have. This all relates to the question I posed ear
57 Post contains links Maverick623 : :sigh: I pose the question to you: what is the equivalent utility of alcoholic beverages that justifies the number of deaths associated with them? Un
58 fr8mech : Aside the obvious, that a firearm can be an effective self-defense tool which proves to be an equalizer during a confrontation, I can add one or two
59 jetmech : So, you pose a question after me, yet I'm expected to answer first? Nothing, and just so it is known, I have never advocated for more alcoholic bever
60 fr8mech : Because, applying your "equivalent utility" standard, since more people are killed by drivers not using their vehicles properly, the utility of the v
61 Maverick623 : LOL WUT. "By definition, a legally obtained car operated in a legal manner has killed no body". Because guns never jam, misfire, etc... not to mentio
62 cmf : Really. How often do people go to jail because their kids got shot? Or someone stole their guns? Many supreme court rulings have not stood the test o
63 jetmech : That comment of mine was in response to fr8mech. I deliberately worded it that way to avoid opening a side debate about accidental deaths vs. suicide
64 fr8mech : Would you be willing to apply the same standard to the First and Fourth Amendments?
65 cmf : I'm not the one leaning on a 1791 ruling about about balancing federal power to justify carrying weapons in public areas 200 years later.
66 fr8mech : Neither am I. I'm leaning on a 2008 ruling by The United States Supreme Court that says I have an individual right to keep and bear a firearm. I brou
67 cmf : No you are not. The 2008 ruling has nothing to do with "deterrent to a tyrannical government."
68 LTBEWR : The Pathmark store the site of the shooting reopened today. They probably had to wait for all the investigations to be done, then go in and clean up,
69 fr8mech : I guess we have a slight communication disconnect here. As I've said, I've used the deterrent argument in the abstract or as a low level reason for t
70 cmf : It isn't a low level reason. It is a reason that was applicable at the time the amendment was created but not today. But as most pro-gunners you do n
71 DarkSnowyNight : We already do. See what happens when you slander someone, or the complete lack of outrage over the Patriot Act. Almost never. Killing someone, is abs
72 fr8mech : You're splitting hairs. The use of deadly force, whether by a civilian or by an police officer, is killing someone. And, is legal under certain circu
73 DarkSnowyNight : I don't think so. Killing someone intentionally, even in self-defense, will get you hard time. As it should. Use of deadly force resulting in death,
74 fr8mech : Splitting hairs. Killing someone in self-defense is not different than using deadly force to protect yourself. They are the same thing. Not when you'
75 DarkSnowyNight : And the idea that it's somehow that easy is a total fiction. The burden you'll need to exculpate yourself from such a situation is much greater than
76 DeltaMD90 : Do you have a source on this? I was under the impression that it was quite the opposite. In fact, I heard that if you shoot someone in self-defense y
77 Post contains links fr8mech : This incident is fairly local and recent. The homeowner will not be charged, even though it can be argued that he could have exited the structure and
78 Post contains links cmf : What do you predict will happen in this case? http://www.whiotv.com/news/news/loca...hooting-girl-12-with-bb-gun/nR2rj/ What about this case? http://
79 fr8mech : I'm guessing you would be surprised at my reaction to these. In my opinion, the instant a minor touches a gun with malicious intent, he is an adult.
80 cmf : Your answers are actually what I expected. They are after the fact reactions that will not solve anything and most importantly, not help the victims.
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