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Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities  
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Climate change may be the subject of debate in some places but in South Florida it’s become a costly reality.

In Miami Beach, where prolonged flooding in low-lying neighborhoods has become the norm after heavy storms, city leaders are weighing a $206 million overhaul of an antiquated drainage system increasingly compromised by rising sea level.

The plan calls for more pumps, wells to store storm runoff, higher sea walls and “back-flow’’ preventers for drain pipes flowing into Biscayne Bay. Those devices are intended to stop the system from producing the reverse effect it often does now. During seasonal high tides, the salty bay regularly puddles up from sewer grates in dozens of spots, such as near the local westside bar Purdy Lounge. Extreme high tides — like one in October 2010 — can push in enough sea water to make streets impassable, including blocks of the prime artery of Alton Road.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/we...h-florida-cities/nR2Qw/#cmComments

Reality is catching up with us. When I moved here 10 years ago flooding wasn't an issue. Now I fully expect the road outside my house to be under water ever so often. Another 10 years like this and it will be too deep for cars to get by when it happens.

It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
doesn't matter if it is man made or natura
Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Time to act.

If it's natural how are we supposed to act?

Even if it is natural I believe that cleaner alternatives to primarily coal and oil must be developed for other reason (notable pollutants such as soot) however the religious zeal with which many environmentalists champion uneconomic energy methods such as wind is incredible.

Honestly living in low-lying areas close to meteorologically active areas and then complaining about flooding is silly when you're depending on up to a century old infrastructure.

Also complaining that 'extremely high tides' that cause flooding prove climate change, would be the same as saying a plane crash proves planes are unsafe. You will always have extreme events that are hard to predict and deal with however you can't claim that a individual extreme event proves a trend.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.



Sounds like it's time for you to move to higher ground.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
When I moved here 10 years ago flooding wasn't an issue.

Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Time to act.

Pick a mountain. Any mountain.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

Nice to see one of a.net's most right wing regulars on the side of logic! Yes indeed, ten years is climate not weather. Very frustrating when right wingers insist, we've had a cold winter / we've had a mild summer (these are rarely the case anyway but of course there is variations in weather, outliers) as though that disproves climate change.

I just hope the cute waitress at the Clevelander Hotel doesn't get wet. Well, maybe just a bit. Oh god.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3296 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

I've always wanted beachfront property. The sooner, the better...


"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
If it's natural how are we supposed to act?

Like we have done throughout history. We are not saying cold is natural so sit there are freeze. Instead we build houses...

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Even if it is natural I believe that cleaner alternatives to primarily coal and oil must be developed for other reason (notable pollutants such as soot) however the religious zeal with which many environmentalists champion uneconomic energy methods such as wind is incredible

Glad you think we need cleaner alternatives. Why can't wind be economic?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Honestly living in low-lying areas close to meteorologically active areas and then complaining about flooding is silly when you're depending on up to a century old infrastructure.

Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Also complaining that 'extremely high tides' that cause flooding prove climate change, would be the same as saying a plane crash proves planes are unsafe. You will always have extreme events that are hard to predict and deal with however you can't claim that a individual extreme event proves a trend.

It isn't individual events.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Sounds like it's time for you to move to higher ground.

Sound like it is time to figure out how we will handle the exodus.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

You should learn to read. It isn't single events. It is a clear increase in occurrence and size. It has taken place over long enough time to make it clear it isn't a warm winter or dry summer but it is increasing fast.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 5):
I've always wanted beachfront property. The sooner, the better...


     

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Pick a mountain. Any mountain.



        

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Sound like it is time to figure out how we will handle the exodus.


Plenty of open space on higher ground in Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Nevada, Colorado. You have an abundance of choices.  
U-haul, Bekins, Ryder, Mayflower and other moving services will make a killing in profits.

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.


I thought Obama promised to make the sea levels recede.   
Don't believe me? Here goes....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGD5O8_Thhk

I guess Romney was right. Obama isn't working.

Florida is overdeveloped and too much overbuilding has gone westward in to the Everglades and there is less wetlands to handle flooding.
My best advice is to get out.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

Ignorance at full speed. Combined with some Obama hate. I see how you take your kool aid.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
I see how you take your kool aid.



Is that how you were taught to have a discussion with someone you don't agree with?
Just insult them?
That is very rude.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Combined with some Obama hate.


That link was from a pro-Obama group on YouTube. How was any of that "hate"?
I just gave you a comment he made about this very subject.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Ignorance at full speed.


Ignorance is sitting in a flood plain and not having a back up plan for when there is a flood.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Is that how you were taught to have a discussion with someone you don't agree with?
Just insult them?
That is very rude.

Don't dish if you can't take it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
That link was from a pro-Obama group on YouTube.

You consider pushbacknow.net a pro Obama group.....

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Ignorance is sitting in a flood plain and not having a back up plan for when there is a flood.

Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them. Calling for dealing with them is the exact opposite.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Don't dish if you can't take it.


Where was I insulting you?

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
You consider pushbacknow.net a pro Obama group.....


Ooops! 
Well the speech sounded good at least.   

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them.
Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Calling for dealing with them is the exact opposite.



Hey I'm no scientist. Just reading your post complaining about the rising sea levels when you live in Florida.
If it bothers you that much, then leave the state and go somewhere else.
Don't expect others here to have pity for you for choosing to live in the low swamplands of Florida.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Yes indeed, ten years is climate not weather.

Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
You should learn to read. It isn't single events. It is a clear increase in occurrence and size. It has taken place over long enough time to make it clear it isn't a warm winter or dry summer but it is increasing fast.

Forgive me if I don't consider the larger puddles in your neighborhood to be proof of anything. Not that I care anyway.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.

This makes quite a bit of difference, don't you think!? If it's man made any real change will probably take a while, and if it's natural then you're really screwed. Either way, and I'm not joking or being facetious, but move to higher ground, bro. I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Perhaps we need to act on global warming... there are a multitude of reasons, but I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for people building things slightly above (or even underwater, New Orleans, for example) and then complain about the ocean... just like people living in Tornado Alley shouldn't be complaining about tornadoes or people that live in SFO shouldn't complain about earthquakes...

Kinda on a related note, I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land, but I'd NEVER live there (the underwater parts.) That's just asking for trouble, and God forbid if it ever does flood, what can you say? They took a gamble against nature and nature won



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land


The Dutch have big dykes.
I'm sure it's safe and they don't have earth quakes or hurricanes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Plenty of open space on higher ground in Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Nevada, Colorado. You have an abundance of choices.



I forgot to add Nebraska.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land


The Dutch have big dykes.
I'm sure it's safe and they don't have earth quakes or hurricanes.

I don't doubt the Dutch's engineering... that being said, I still think living underwater is asking for trouble. JMO. Choosing to live near the ocean when the water is rising... sorry, but a move is probably in order.

I think there are plenty of good reasons to combat global warming... I just don't see choosing a poor housing location as one of them. I'm really not trying to be a dick either...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3656 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I thought Obama promised to make the sea levels recede.   
Don't believe me? Here goes....

He doesn't say that. He says in the speech that the "rise of the oceans" would "begin to slow". That's not promising very much, is it. The oceans can still rise, only less quickly than before. He could still do that.

Ironically, if Obama has indeed caused a worse economy (as conservatives claim he did), then he has indeed done a lot against climate change, because an economic cool-down is the most effective weapon against CO2 emissions that we currently have.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

   That's my understanding as well.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Reality is catching up with us.

Seeing how it has not warmed in 15 years I would say reality is here. No excessive hurricanes, no excessive tornadoes, it has been hotter before...etc...etc...etc....

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming

Yes and stop funding it and start living in reality

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.

Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them

Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology. All of this is happened before and will happen again. Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.

By doing what? In my line of work its not uncommon to have an archeologist find evidence of a native american beach camp several miles inland from what is today's beach front.

We can debate the causes of climate change, but what we can't debate is that it has happened before and the fact that it did is one reason people where here when Columbus showed up. People forget that at one point a mile of ice was over Seattle and that there were times when ocean levels were much higher and lower. Its one of the reasons they find ancient ruins well out to sea.

So? what do you suggest we do? Other than prepare for an inevitable change in sea levels that will flood a significantly populated part of our planet by moving people.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Extreme high tides — like one in October 2010 — can push in enough sea water to make streets impassable, including blocks of the prime artery of Alton Road.

A lot of cities on the coasts will have issues. Also a lot of cities have destroyed the natural dune barriers that used to protect and build the beaches up. If you can't stand the rise, it will be time to move. Lousiana this week is a good example that all the levees and pumps down's matter if they get breached , and you are below sea/river level.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-us-science-nature-climate-change/

Nope, they are rising over a long average. Whether Natural or human induced, the levels are rising.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology. All of this is happened before and will happen again. Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.

Ignorance is standing around and doing nothing, especially if this does turn out to be human induced. Rising sea levels are not the only consequence. Higher temperatures will lead to more droughts, (how's that rain fall in the US Plains and west)? More poweful storms where cold and warm air does meat. . Hurricanes with warmer waters will get much more intense. Species may die off , or invade into unfamiliar zones.
To debate the man made, vs natural causes is fine until we have an answer, but investment still needs to be made to understand the full consequences.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The Dutch have big dykes.


-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

I realize that, I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does. I feel sorry for them when they lose their house but I look at them with a "well what did you think would happen?" look



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does. I feel sorry for them when they lose their house but I look at them with a "well what did you think would happen?" look

Somebody's got to do it. The nation's economy would not be nearly what it is without the ports of LA, NYC, New Orleans, Miami, Seattle, etc. The nation's military wouldn't be nearly what it is without San Diego and Norfolk. And you need people to staff those ports and run the businesses that make money catering to the needs that those ports have. Those people deserve support when things go bad as a result of living someplace that the nation needs them to live, not blame.

And that will always be the case. Access to, and control of, the oceans will never go out of style, no matter where the oceans actually end up.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Kinda on a related note, I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land, but I'd NEVER live there (the underwater parts.) That's just asking for trouble,

When proper precautions are taken it is just as safe as anywhere. But you need a combination of long term and short term precautions. Long term by building flood defences, pumps and a strict inspection and maintenance regime. Short term by evacuating people, putting in sandbags or mobilising the army in case a storm surge is expected (or in New Orleans's case a hurricane). Both the long term and the short term precautions where done on the cheap in New Orleans, and New Orleans paid a terrible price.

Same for those living in earthquake teritory, hurricane alley or areas where forest fires are common.

Short of a meteor strikes or tsunamis there is little that nature can throw at humanity that is not surivivable with proper preparations. Whether it is economically justifiable is entirely debatable. In the Netherlands there ain't a debate on it for the simple reason that half the country is at or below sea level. We don't have a choise.

[Edited 2012-09-03 22:47:44]


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The Dutch have big dykes.


-Not sure if using innuendo-
-Mir


Thanks for catching that. I was thinking of a different kind of dyke.  
The Dutch have big dikes.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
He doesn't say that. He says in the speech that the "rise of the oceans" would "begin to slow". That's not promising very much, is it. The oceans can still rise, only less quickly than before. He could still do that.

Sorry but he ain't Moses.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
Sorry but he ain't Moses.

No need to. In the grand scheme of things it's not very hard, we'd "only" have to stop burning fossil fuels. I realize we're not going to, for various reasons, but we're talking about a practical matter here, not a biblical one.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
Where was I insulting you?

The stupidity of your suggestions. Exemplified by this:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
Hey I'm no scientist. Just reading your post complaining about the rising sea levels when you live in Florida.
If it bothers you that much, then leave the state and go somewhere else.
Don't expect others here to have pity for you for choosing to live in the low swamplands of Florida.

Two thirds of the worlds large cities are by the ocean. There is no consensus on how many people live in low lying areas but they start at around every tenth person.

This is not a problem about where I live. It is easy for me to move. This is about how we handle moving a tenth of the worlds population and rebuild all the transportation infrastructure, manufacturing capacity and replace affected farmland. Then redo it a bit later as it keeps rising as we can't build it too far from the ocean.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

Head in the sand mentality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Forgive me if I don't consider the larger puddles in your neighborhood to be proof of anything. Not that I care anyway.

Obviously you care enough to respond.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Seeing how it has not warmed in 15 years I would say reality is here. No excessive hurricanes, no excessive tornadoes, it has been hotter before...etc...etc...etc....

Only if you don't treat data scientifically.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...

Again, only if you ignore scientific data.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology.

That would be ignorance. Just as it is ignorance to deny it on ideology.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
All of this is happened before and will happen again.

But according to you not now.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.

Because what you describe as natural can't happen while you're alive.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 18):
By doing what? In my line of work its not uncommon to have an archeologist find evidence of a native american beach camp several miles inland from what is today's beach front.

That is what we need to decide. Do we ban start moving cities inland? Do we build levies? Do we change something in the environment to counter the rise?

Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 19):
Ignorance is standing around and doing nothing

  

Quoting casinterest (Reply 19):
especially if this does turn out to be human induced. Rising sea levels are not the only consequence

It really doesn't matter if it is natural or man made. We do not make a difference if a house is on fire by lightning or because someone played with matches.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I realize that, I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does.

Do you apply this to everything? Should we move everyone out of earthquake zones or do we build to withstand? Do we move everyone away from tornado areas or do we build protection? Do we stop growing crop in flood zones or do we build levies to to protect them. Do we stop growing crop in areas that have experienced drought?

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 23):
But you need a combination of long term and short term precautions.

  
It takes time to be prepared.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

I have not noticed anything unusual in the Miami area. If anything I have noticed less flooding than years ago. South Florida is not flood prone because the water just seeps into the ground, or goes into the everglades or back in the bay and ocean. The real problem here is a city like Miami Beach which is very dense and areas near the coast are building up now and becoming more and more dense. There is no more building west into the Everglades. Miami Beach and much of the older and now densely populated areas of the city have flood control and sewer lines from the 40s. That is the problem. An upgrade is needed no matter what happens. More people, more problems.

Ocean levels are going to change whether it is man made or not. It does not matter what is causing anything ocean tides always change. In 10,000 years Florida might have less land or more.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
If anything I have noticed less flooding than years ago. South Florida is not flood prone because the water just seeps into the ground, or goes into the everglades or back in the bay and ocean.

There is much less flooding after rain storms because
- they are much more active in lowering canals
- they have installed pumps allowing canals to be emptied even at times of high tide
- They documented all standing water areas after one of the storms around 2000 and learned where the actual trouble spots are and installed pumps in those locations.

The problems we are talking about here is something completely different. This isn't based on rain. This is based on the ocean going higher than before. It is especially clear around Miami Beach but also down town and mid town.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
That is the problem. An upgrade is needed no matter what happens. More people, more problems.

That too is a problem.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
Ocean levels are going to change whether it is man made or not. It does not matter what is causing anything ocean tides always change. In 10,000 years Florida might have less land or more.

But are we going to sit here and pretend they don't as it relates to the trillions of dollars we have invested and continue to invest in these areas?


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
That is what we need to decide. Do we ban start moving cities inland? Do we build levies? Do we change something in the environment to counter the rise?

Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

I don't think building levies or trying to change the environment will solve the problem. Feel free to simulate a sea level rise yourself and see just how big an issue even a small increase in water levels will be.

http://www.csc.noaa.gov/slr/viewer/#

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Do you apply this to everything? Should we move everyone out of earthquake zones or do we build to withstand? Do we move everyone away from tornado areas or do we build protection? Do we stop growing crop in flood zones or do we build levies to to protect them. Do we stop growing crop in areas that have experienced drought?

That's really not an apples to apples comparison. You can build structures to withstand large earthquakes and you can rebuild a house after a tornado with a reasonable likelihood that you won't be hit again. You can't have a bunch of coastal cities built like New Orleans once they are effectively below sea level.

As I mentioned, I work somewhat in this field. It's not uncommon for people to build their home within 50-100 feet of a beach only a few feet above sea level. In the short term that results sometimes in large logs or storm surges being swept into peoples homes. In the long term it means that beautiful view may go away and your home be flooded for 1000 years. There is some personal responsibility on the homeowner when they themselves don't take that into consideration.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades,

I have not heard of any scientist who said that the number of tornadoes had increased.

The argument of the skeptics that climate change had not led to an increase in tropical storms is a strawman anyway (as always), because the IPCC report says that there is confidence in stronger tropical storms but less confidence as far as the number of tropical stormes is concerned, but chances are that the number will decrease.

[Edited 2012-09-04 10:27:51]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Head in the sand mentality

Ten years is not climate anything. That's weather.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Obviously you care enough to respond.

I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):All of this is happened before and will happen again.But according to you not now.

No according to many scientist that think CAGW is crap. CO2 and man is not the driver of the ever changing climate.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

No we do what we have been doing since the beginning. Adapt and roll with the changes.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):
I have not heard of any scientist who said that the number of tornadoes had increased

I understand that but here in the states every time we have a some tornadoes break out we get some talking head on the news telling us about climate change.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):
because the IPCC report says that there is confidence in stronger tropical storms but less

And we have not had any proof of stronger storms happening despite the supposed rapid rise in temps the last twenty or so years that climate alarmist having been yelling fire..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is

Bingo



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1207 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Now I remember why I haven't posted here in weeks. Its because crazy people who can't stand people they think are crazy post crazy things they'd be crazy to say in public.

Exhibit A:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Ignorance at full speed. Combined with some Obama hate. I see how you take your kool aid.

Classy.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
I don't think building levies or trying to change the environment will solve the problem.

I don't think levies is the solution but I do think it is part of the solution. I do think there is plenty we can do to affect the environment,

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
That's really not an apples to apples comparison. You can build structures to withstand large earthquakes and you can rebuild a house after a tornado with a reasonable likelihood that you won't be hit again.

The only difference is scale. We have ways to handle flooding. Question is if it is cost efficient.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
It's not uncommon for people to build their home within 50-100 feet of a beach only a few feet above sea level.

Look at the keys. You are required to build on stilts. easy way to handle flooding. Problem is if stops being flooding and instead is occasional dry land.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Ten years is not climate anything. That's weather.

I remember arguments a cold winter was a sign nothing is happening. But you're missing the point. It isn't 10 years. It is much longer. The 10 years is the period where it has pushed things over the top here. Before then we still had margin. Now the margin is gone and we wasted the time arguing about if it is happening instead of preparing for it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is.

So you do care.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
No according to many scientist that think CAGW is crap. CO2 and man is not the driver of the ever changing climate.

There are still people arguing the moon landings took place in Hollywood. They claim to have science on their side. Concensus is solidly on global warming happening. Even most people claiming it isn't man made agree it is happening.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
No we do what we have been doing since the beginning. Adapt and roll with the changes.

That is why it is time to act now. Adapting doesn't happen in an afternoon.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 33):
Classy.

Nice to ignore the beginning.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

Wine makers here are considering irrigation. That has never been needed before and wine making isn't exactly new. The Sahel is becoming the Sahara. Island nations are disappearing under water. But we are "ecotards". I wonder what you will tell your grandchildren.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
It isn't 10 years. It is much longer. The 10 years is the period where it has pushed things over the top here.

You said you moved there ten years ago. That's the data you're working with and that's not enough time to make any determination about climate.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
So you do care.

I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):
I wonder what you will tell your grandchildren.

I'd take them for a ride in my Hummer.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
You said you moved there ten years ago. That's the data you're working with and that's not enough time to make any determination about climate.

I said it has crossed the line from not being a problem to being a common problem in that period.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

Take responsibility for what you create and there is no problem.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Deal with it.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life.

Nobody gets a say except me. It's my life, my car, my credit card going in the gas pump. If driving a hybrid or buying carbon credits makes you sleep better at night, feel free to do so. But I sleep just fine as it is.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Deal with it.

That argument can be used for just about anything... it's where you draw the line. Some value more personal freedom even if it costs society a little more. We can get into a debate, but the bottom line is it's an opinion, not a fact



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Nobody gets a say except me. It's my life, my car, my credit card going in the gas pump. If driving a hybrid or buying carbon credits makes you sleep better at night, feel free to do so. But I sleep just fine as it is.

Incorrect. For instance, you can't live at a river and routinely dump toxic garbage into it which then kill a farmer's sheep downstream. You may consider it part of your personal freedom and value it very much. You may also believe the dead sheep aren't that much of a big deal. However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
That argument can be used for just about anything... it's where you draw the line. Some value more personal freedom even if it costs society a little more. We can get into a debate, but the bottom line is it's an opinion, not a fact

No, it's quite factual. My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins. You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people, those people will come and meddle with you. Now whether that's good or bad, we can debate, you're right - but the basic fact should be undisputed. Well, BMI727 disputes it, so maybe it's not as undisputed as I thought.  



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
No, it's quite factual. My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins. You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people, those people will come and meddle with you. Now whether that's good or bad, we can debate, you're right - but the basic fact should be undisputed. Well, BMI727 disputes it, so maybe it's not as undisputed as I thought.  

Well like I said, just about everything one does "affects" society. I ate fast food today instead of cooking my own meal because I was running late... that's less healthy so I may develop more health problems, putting a burden on society. My friend lives further away from work than I do, burning more fossil fuels. I have a friend that likes to ride motorcycles, increasing the chance he'll go to the ER, placing a burden on society. See how silly it can get? There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I don't agree to take away BMI727's (imaginary) Hummer just because some people live close to a rising ocean.

Which actually brings up a good point... people living close to the ocean are trying to get me to change because they live close to the ocean that is rising. "You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people..." then don't put a burden on me for living by the ocean!

That's what I meant about it being a war of opinions, not facts. Sure some R&D and new technology that is greener can be researched, but if someone wants to drive a Hummer, let them. We can't measure every single person's individual costs to society, and we shouldn't have to. Price of freedom IMO. Not black and white of course



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Which actually brings up a good point... people living close to the ocean are trying to get me to change because they live close to the ocean that is rising. "You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people..." then don't put a burden on me for living by the ocean!

That's sophistry, and you know it.   The key is "affect" - people have always been living by the sea, so they're affected; but they don't affect the people further inland. Though I agree that someone who just moved to the seaside has less of a case, particularly if he knew that sea levels would probably rise.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Well like I said, just about everything one does "affects" society. I ate fast food today instead of cooking my own meal because I was running late... that's less healthy so I may develop more health problems, putting a burden on society. My friend lives further away from work than I do, burning more fossil fuels. I have a friend that likes to ride motorcycles, increasing the chance he'll go to the ER, placing a burden on society. See how silly it can get? There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I don't agree to take away BMI727's (imaginary) Hummer just because some people live close to a rising ocean.

I agree that there has to be a middle ground. We don't want a dictatorship and total mind control, but we don't want poisoned rivers either. I think people should simply take responsibility for their actions. Your friend with the motorcycle may potentially affect society, yes, but he also endangers his own life, so there's a deterrent and he has to weigh his options carefully. If motorcyclists would really drain the health system (hypothetically), we could ask them to pay more health insurance. I don't think that would be unfair in principle.
The imaginary BMI727 with his Hummer is literally a freerider: he causes damage to other people, but doesn't want anything to do with the cost. Obviously with negligible impact, but if there are millions of BMI727s with millions of Hummers, it becomes a factor. I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions. Note that don't have the faintest idea whether that's feasible and how much it would be, I'm just speaking in principle.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
The stupidity of your suggestions.



Suggesting that someone move to higher ground if they're concerned about floods is considered "stupidity" in your eyes?
Wow!
So much for a civil discussion.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
You may also believe the dead sheep aren't that much of a big deal.

They aren't.

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Time to cut a check to the cops and lawmakers.

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins.

What gives you any more right to swing your fist at my life than me to drive whatever I wish?

Quoting Rara (Reply 43):
I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions.

First of all, that's been done and it didn't work. In fact it backfired.

Secondly, I'm the one paying for the gas. I use more gas, I buy more gas. It's that simple.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 43):
I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions.

It sounds like you've never filled up a Hummer  

(I haven't either but I thought it was pretty witty)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Time to cut a check to the cops and lawmakers.

Isn't corruption great?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 47):
Isn't corruption great?

It's not necessarily corruption. Just making a deal. More people benefiting from a factory or whatever is a good thing.

Maybe it isn't necessary to write a check. Don't want the factory, fine. Just take all that tax revenue and jobs to someplace with more vision. And make sure to tell all the unemployed people why it happened.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Suggesting that someone move to higher ground if they're concerned about floods is considered "stupidity" in your eyes?
Wow!
So much for a civil discussion.

Stop pretending you're a victim. earn up to what you did.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's not necessarily corruption. Just making a deal.


How is writing a check to the cops not corruption?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
Stop pretending you're a victim. earn up to what you did.

What did I do?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3146 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
You may also believe the dead sheep aren't that much of a big deal.

They aren't.

Sometimes I'm tempted to add you to my Respected Users list.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
It sounds like you've never filled up a Hummer  

(I haven't either but I thought it was pretty witty)

Haha, no, I haven't. In fact I rarely fill up any car, because I don't drive. So in a way I'm not really qualified to write about raising the price of fuel, because it's all to easy for me to stipulate something which wouldn't affect me.

Oh well. I can only hope I would have the same opinions if I did in fact drive.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Perhaps we need to act on global warming... there are a multitude of reasons, but I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for people building things slightly above (or even underwater, New Orleans, for example) and then complain about the ocean... just like people living in Tornado Alley shouldn't be complaining about tornadoes or people that live in SFO shouldn't complain about earthquakes...

We can't all live in Wyoming. People are going to live everywhere. To say that people who are injured by tornados shouldn't complain is insulting. Anyone can suffer a blow from Mother Nature anywhere. There's nothing wrong with planning for it.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
He doesn't say that. He says in the speech that the "rise of the oceans" would "begin to slow". That's not promising very much, is it. The oceans can still rise, only less quickly than before. He could still do that.

Actually, if reducing the growth of spending is a "cut", then I'd say his claim to "begin to slow" the rise of the oceans is claiming to lower them. At least, if I"m following that liberal point of view.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
Ironically, if Obama has indeed caused a worse economy (as conservatives claim he did), then he has indeed done a lot against climate change, because an economic cool-down is the most effective weapon against CO2 emissions that we currently have.

Touche'.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Which actually brings up a good point... people living close to the ocean are trying to get me to change because they live close to the ocean that is rising. "You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people..." then don't put a burden on me for living by the ocean!

I always resented how the people living in sunny, beautiful, prosperous California wanted our Washington State water sent to them, which would cost us significatnly more here. Hey, you want the water, come live in a perpetual shower with the rest of us chumps rusting up here in western Washington. Or is it have your cake and eat it too?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

I'm always surprised to see that every time a US tornado makes the news here, a lot of homes and even malls are reduced to nothing because they were made of plywood. I guess planning is not a priority. My house is 100% concrete, even the roof, and there is no tornado or any kind of weather here.

Rara : well I'm sure people are not happy with current prices of gas in Germany, but it's far higher than in the US, and I'm guessing you don't see that many Hummers or pickup trucks, just like here. Because at the end of the day, money talks, if gas is priced with a conservation goal in mind (and I'm not talking environment, since that's not why taxes were imposed to begin with).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1262 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I'd take them for a ride in my Hummer.

Good luck with that. There might still be plenty of oil, and the seas may not rise, but the chances of your Hummer still working in 2040 are negligible  



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):

I don't think levies is the solution but I do think it is part of the solution. I do think there is plenty we can do to affect the environment,

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to propose. Levies only hold back surface water they do nothing against groundwater. The groundwater table can and typically does rise when sea levels do. That's why cities built below sea level have massive pumping stations.

Or, are you suggesting that we purposely manipulate our climate? Which, is something we really know nothing about. As I said, natural or otherwise our climate has changed many times since the dawn of the earth.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):

Look at the keys. You are required to build on stilts. easy way to handle flooding. Problem is if stops being flooding and instead is occasional dry land.

That is completely impractical. If, as some say, storms will increase in intensity in the coming decades homes like that are likely to be destroyed.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3109 posts, RR: 6
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Plenty of open space on higher ground in Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Nevada, Colorado. You have an abundance of choices

I could swear that the same camp suggests that desolate, open places don't deserve infrastructure support. "They choose to live there, don't expect to be connected," to paraphrase. Doesn't this come up in the EAS debates? Well, maybe we'd better shore up the interior hinterlands, and not discontinue EAS, because I guess now it's a legitimate plan to deal with global warming? Move Houston, New York City, and Miami to Williston?


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39706 posts, RR: 75
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):


So what's upsetting you?
58 replies and no suggestions from you. Just you insulting and calling on everyone to "act". Can you be more specific?
Can't really make heads or tails of what you're trying to accomplish here.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to propose. Levies only hold back surface water they do nothing against groundwater.

I'm proposing levies for areas that will experience flooding at times of high tides combined with storms. I'm sure large land areas can be protected that way but I also expect it is a small part of the total.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
That is completely impractical. If, as some say, storms will increase in intensity in the coming decades homes like that are likely to be destroyed.

It can't be completely impractical since it has already been in effect in the Keys for many years and there is plenty of construction.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
Or, are you suggesting that we purposely manipulate our climate?

We are manipulating it today. Not for the purpose of changing the climate but pollutants released by man are bigger part of the atmosphere than ever before.

If you don't like the idea of calculated manipulation shouldn't the very first step be to pull back on what we are doing now? At least until we have consensus on what effects they have.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
As I said, natural or otherwise our climate has changed many times since the dawn of the earth.

Why shall we take a "do nothing" attitude to global warming when we don't do that with anything else?

We don't leave land natural. We have converted it to farmland, cities, roads. We remove unwanted vegetation from forests. We have filled up swamps and lakes. We remove water from rivers and have changed river bed routes, even redirected water flow in a few rivers. We manipulate plants and we try to control animals and insects.

Why shall we leave global warming alone?


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
Which, is something we really know nothing about. As I said, natural or otherwise our climate has changed many times since the dawn of the earth.

The fact that climate has changed before is just another strawman. It is like saying that there have been forest fires all the time when you know very well it was your cigarette this time.

We have known for more than 100 years that CO2, the most important greenhouse gas, is opaque to certain frequencies and that atmospheric back-radiation will increase the more carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 60):
We have known for more than 100 years that CO2, the most important greenhouse gas

That would be water vapor that is the most important green house gas. CO2 is down the list a bit. But that would not fit with the anti oil and coal lobby.

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
Why shall we leave global warming alone?

Nothing we can do about it. Easier and cheaper to adapt as we always have.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 56):
If, as some say, storms will increase in intensity in the coming decades homes like that are likely to be destroyed.

Well actually they have been saying that for some 15 to 20 years and it has not happened yet.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
That would be water vapor that is the most important green house gas. CO2 is down the list a bit. But that would not fit with the anti oil and coal lobby.

*Sigh* That would be the main greenhouse gas for the natural cycle, limited to low altitudes. Besides, water vapor resides in the atmosphere for only one or two weeks, and in the form of clouds water vapor is probably more cooling rather than warming.
CO2 stays in the atmosphere for centuries and can therefore accumulate over a much longer time.

Water vapor only has a marginal effect on climate change, and the causal chain goes like this: more CO2 -> more backradiation -> on global average temperatures raise -> more water vapor

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Nothing we can do about it. Easier and cheaper to adapt as we always have.

Well, it could indeed be too late already. But what you say here ist bull on three accounts.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
I'm proposing levies for areas that will experience flooding at times of high tides combined with storms. I'm sure large land areas can be protected that way but I also expect it is a small part of the total.

I really don't think you realize the massive project that would entail. A 5' sea level change is not a high tide combined with a storm. Did you run the simulation I linked to? I've purposely stayed out of the man made vs natural caused climate change argument for a reason. You shouldn't be sure that large land areas could be protected because they can't be. If sea levels change 5' in the positive that displaces 10s of millions of people. That kind of migration has never been done in the history of our planet.

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
It can't be completely impractical since it has already been in effect in the Keys for many years and there is plenty of construction.

I've worked in areas that have occational coastal flooding, what a 5' sea level change would require much more than building your house on floats to deal with. Imagine basically having millions of people living on houseboats and traveling to dry land on a boat. That completely ignores hurricane or storm damage that could occur to these homes. Who bales them out if they decide to stay there and their home is destroyed? It's better they move somewhere else.

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
If you don't like the idea of calculated manipulation shouldn't the very first step be to pull back on what we are doing now? At least until we have consensus on what effects they have.

Yes, stop letting people build in storm surge or flood prone areas. That's a great start. Anyone that suggests that we can hire a bunch of scientists to manipulate our climate for our advantage ignores that there might be unintended consequences to that decision.

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
Why shall we take a "do nothing" attitude to global warming when we don't do that with anything else?

I suggest we plan for it. What would you suggest we do if our civilization was 10K years more advanced than it is now and we had a glacier advancing on the Empire State Building? That's not a crazy idea. There are glacial erratics all over Manhattan. Would you suggest we warm the climate up or devise a plan to accommodate people affected by that? I think it's the latter.

Quoting cmf (Reply 59):
We don't leave land natural. We have converted it to farmland, cities, roads. We remove unwanted vegetation from forests. We have filled up swamps and lakes. We remove water from rivers and have changed river bed routes, even redirected water flow in a few rivers. We manipulate plants and we try to control animals and insects.

Why shall we leave global warming alone?

This is true, but only in our recent history. We can mitigate the man made effects we have on the environment but we can't change our environment.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1207 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):
Wine makers here are considering irrigation. That has never been needed before and wine making isn't exactly new. The Sahel is becoming the Sahara. Island nations are disappearing under water. But we are "ecotards". I wonder what you will tell your grandchildren.

The Sahel is becoming the Sahara? Wow. In the unlikely event that statement is true, have you ever considered the origins of the Saraha desert?



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Nothing we can do about it. Easier and cheaper to adapt as we always have.

That is patently false in the sense that certain aspects of global warming come from greenhouse gases that are produced from manmade activities. To shrug our shoulders and say "Oh well, adapt..." is the wrong way to look at it. To me, it's much easier - over time - to adapt the manmade activities than to adapt to the weather.

However, I think we need to approach it with a reasonable, conservative plan that doesn't require us to turn to bicycles for transportation, use candles to read by, and basically go back to Little House on the Prairie days. There has to be a better way without an all or nothing approach, but there has to be something done regardless.

I don't believe, though, that it's entirely - or even mostly - manmade causes that create global warming. It's part of it, though.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 63):
Who bales them out if they decide to stay there and their home is destroyed? It's better they move somewhere else.

Apparently the US Taxpayer. It seems our new mantra post-Katrina is "We will rebuild it" even if it's below sea level, on a fault line, or otherwise in a very risky location.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 63):
I really don't think you realize the massive project that would entail. A 5' sea level change is not a high tide combined with a storm.

I think you're missing where they would be built. The idea isn't to keep existing areas. They would be built to protect areas that would on occasion be under threat after the 5' rise.

Same for stilts. You would not use it to keep living on the keys. You would use it at the locations that after the rise become under similar threat as the keys are today.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 63):
What would you suggest we do if our civilization was 10K years more advanced than it is now and we had a glacier advancing on the Empire State Building?

I very much advocate we should try to warm up the planet.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 63):
That's a great start. Anyone that suggests that we can hire a bunch of scientists to manipulate our climate for our advantage ignores that there might be unintended consequences to that decision.

I much rather take calculated risks than certain doom.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 63):
We can mitigate the man made effects we have on the environment but we can't change our environment.

Look at what you said. If we can't change the environment then there can't be man made effects either. Personally I think there is plenty of proof that we have changed the environment. Question is not if we can change it. Question is if we can change it to what we want.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2816 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 66):
I think you're missing where they would be built. The idea isn't to keep existing areas. They would be built to protect areas that would on occasion be under threat after the 5' rise.

In that case they wouldn't be necessary. Did you bother to simulate a 5' sea level rise on the link I posted? I suppose if we just replicated the same structures we already have on the coast then fine, I see no problem with that.

Quoting cmf (Reply 66):

I very much advocate we should try to warm up the planet.
Quoting cmf (Reply 66):

I much rather take calculated risks than certain doom.

There is no "calculated risk" if you want to manipulate our environment purposefully. We've never done it and there's a real chance that we could do much more harm than good.

Quoting cmf (Reply 66):
Look at what you said. If we can't change the environment then there can't be man made effects either. Personally I think there is plenty of proof that we have changed the environment. Question is not if we can change it. Question is if we can change it to what we want.

And, why would we want to purposefully manipulate the environment? As an earth scientist I know that glaciers at one point were as far south as the Missouri River. They've also been much further north than they are now. We need to stop looking at our climate in terms of a generation or two in human lifespans. We need to be more adaptable.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 67):
In that case they wouldn't be necessary. Did you bother to simulate a 5' sea level rise on the link I posted? I suppose if we just replicated the same structures we already have on the coast then fine, I see no problem with that.

Glad to see you come around in one paragraph.  
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 67):
There is no "calculated risk" if you want to manipulate our environment purposefully. We've never done it and there's a real chance that we could do much more harm than good.

Sure we have. Not climate but certainly environment. Plenty of planes flying around spraying poison to kill mosquitoes around here. I mentioned several things before and there are many more. Buildings dams, irrigating desserts. We have done plenty.

And while we do not have certainty in every detail we certainly know plenty. But if you really want to take the no risk let nature have its way then take it the full way and advocate we stop all the things we do not have evidence are perfectly safe. Or at least those where we have strong evidence they do affect the climate.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 67):
And, why would we want to purposefully manipulate the environment?

Because we want it to allow us to have the best possible lives we can for us and future generations. That is why we have have turned land in to farm land, built houses, roads, harbors and so on. You really have to go out of your way to find areas we have not manipulated in some way.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2805 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 68):
Sure we have. Not climate but certainly environment. Plenty of planes flying around spraying poison to kill mosquitoes around here. I mentioned several things before and there are many more. Buildings dams, irrigating desserts. We have done plenty.

I should be more clear. When I'm saying "why would we want to manipulate our environment" I'm fully aware that we have dammed rivers, filled wetlands, etc. I'm specifically talking about our climate.

Quoting cmf (Reply 68):
Because we want it to allow us to have the best possible lives we can for us and future generations. That is why we have have turned land in to farm land, built houses, roads, harbors and so on. You really have to go out of your way to find areas we have not manipulated in some way.

And why do you think that our lives could not be just as good if oceans rise? There's a greater risk of doing irreparable harm if we purposely try to change the temperature of our planet. I'd rather we just plan for a change in the ocean levels. As I said earlier, people need to stop thinking of our environment in terms of our lifespans. Our climate (e.g., ocean levels, ice fields, atmosphere) have changed many times over the life of our planet.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 69):
And why do you think that our lives could not be just as good if oceans rise?

I have not suggested we can't. I have stated we need to prepare for it.

But it will however take incredible capital (monetary, material, manpower and time) to move all infrastructure so we better get started, if that is how we think it is best to play it out.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 69):
There's a greater risk of doing irreparable harm if we purposely try to change the temperature of our planet.

If you're so worried about that then you should advocate we stop all the things we do today.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 69):
Our climate (e.g., ocean levels, ice fields, atmosphere) have changed many times over the life of our planet.

So what? We have done everything we can to change the environment to be better for us.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 67):
As an earth scientist I know that glaciers at one point were as far south as the Missouri River. They've also been much further north than they are now. We need to stop looking at our climate in terms of a generation or two in human lifespans. We need to be more adaptable.

However, we have only been releasing pollutants into the atmosphere on a large scale for a little over 200 years. So the relevance of drawing conclusions from data from thousands of years ago has limited relevance.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
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