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Should Obama Be Reelected?  
User currently offlineYankeesFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 216 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8136 times:

Should Obama be reelected? My answer is NO! Why? Because he is a HORRIBLE president and he didn't keep his promises.
What do you think? And why?

[Edited 2012-09-07 23:43:53]


I hope you stand by your promises Obama. I will be really mad if you don't
231 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

He should NOT be re-elected!


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8121 times:

Quite an aimless thread, given the bipartisanship of US politics. It is really just a question of "Are you a Republican or a Democrat"

A much more interesting question is whether anyone is changing from being a Democrat voter to a Republican as a result of Obama's presidency.


User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8113 times:

Resoundingly YES. I could never vote for a president who has a horrible view on social issues such as women's rights, gay rights, and helping those in need. Mitt and Co just do not understand the average person in this country.


lol I probably wont return to this thread, I've stopped eating popcorn and I'd need a lot for this one.


User currently offlinearmitageshanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3645 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8109 times:

I don't think he should. I don't think he's done much to advance the economy of the country- I certainly haven't felt anything personally or seen much improvement in my community.

However, I don't think Romney is the answer either, and that's what's so difficult about all this. I definitely won't be voting for Obama, and I would not vote for Romney if the election were tomorrow. Its looking like I'll make a token vote to the Libertarian party, which I belong to.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8094 times:
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Should Obama Be Reelected?

No, absolutely not. Quoting James Carville, "It's the Economy, stupid." And President Obama has done a disastrous job in handling it.

In thinking of the Obama Administration, I'm reminded of this quote from "The West Wing" where Republican attorney Ainsley Hayes is explaining why she would not choose to work for the Democratic Bartlet Adminstration:

"Gosh, let's see if there could possibly be any other reason why I wouldn't want to work in this White House? This White House that feels that government is better for children than parents are. That looks at forty years of degrading and humiliating free lunches handed out in a spectacularly failed effort to level the playing field and says, 'Let's try forty more.' This White House that says of anyone that points that out to them, that they are cold and mean and racist, and then accuses Republicans of using the politics of fear. This White House that loves the Bill of Rights, all of them - except the second one."

Sounds an awful lot like our current Administration, doesn't it?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8094 times:

havne't left yet, lol.

but people seem to forget there were two crashes under republican reign. The 2001-2 period under Bush, and the 2008-09 period under Bush. I was a victim under both of those. Geez I so remember the Clinton nineties and especially 2000 when the $ was at such a high.

There is nothing anybody on here could say that would convince me Obama could have cleaned up 8 years of Republican ruin in that time. His first year alone he saw the economy crumble all around him. I so remember early 2009 and wonderingn what the he@@ was going on in the world.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2083 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8080 times:

Obama being reelected will only mean our dollar will appreciate even more, so as a travel and gadget loving foreigner. Vote 1 Obama!!1!

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
Obama could have cleaned up 8 years of Republican ruin in that time.
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
2001-2 period under Bush,

Can you not see your fantastic inconsistency? 2001-2002 was Bush's fault and yet 2009-2012 is...still Bush's fault? Lefty logic...


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8080 times:

President Obama didn't think he should be re-elected:

"And a year from now I think people are going to see that we're starting to make some progress, but there's still going to be some pain out there. If I don't have this done in three years, then there's going to be a one-term proposition."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...09_i_will_be_held_accountable.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6agoHtqu7lg

Neither do I.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8069 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):

Should Obama be reelected? My answer is NO! Why? Because he is a HORRIBLE president and he didn't keep his promises.
What do you think? And why?

Pointless thread. You're not actually pointing to any specific issues or even real reasons why you think he is horrible.

Furthermore, the whole premise is nonsense. As far as the election is concerned, it's not about saying "Choice A sucks, so I can't choose that." It's more a question of "Are we better off with sucky Choice A or steaming pile of crap B?"


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8049 times:
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Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 9):
As far as the election is concerned, it's not about saying "Choice A sucks, so I can't choose that." It's more a question of "Are we better off with sucky Choice A or steaming pile of crap B?"

Well, how does the saying go about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?  

Seeing how the last 4 years haven't worked, saying, "Let's try four more," seems a bit insane to me.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8036 times:

Yes

* Neither Romney or Ryan has alot of foreign policy experience, wich for a country like the USA who is so very much involved around the world, is essential to have..

* Anyone who thinks that the economic problems of the USA will be over by getting a new president is naiv as hell. Just like the ones who thought that Obama was actually gonna clear up the economic mess, the foreign policy and relations mess, the war mess after Bush in only one term were naiv. The economic problems of the United States are so grave, that it will take several terms, possibly several presidents, a congress that cooperates and understand the importance of putting their country in front and ahead of their personal and local community and business agendas and a patient American people.

* The US needs stability in it's leadership in order to solve the problems that it face. Changing president now is not gonna help.


User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 10):

Well, how does the saying go about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?  

Read the the first part of what I wrote. You're not even expecting to have a real discussion and would rather blather on with vague, petty nonsense.

Can we actually being to discuss issue rather than reading off bumper stickers?


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8031 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
* Neither Romney or Ryan has alot of foreign policy experience, wich for a country like the USA who is so very much involved around the world, is essential to have..

Obama had none when he was elected; your point?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
Anyone who thinks that the economic problems of the USA will be over by getting a new president is naiv as hell.

Is that so?

Signed,

The 43.9 million Americans who voted for Reagan instead of Carter in 1980.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8027 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Obama had none when he was elected; your point?

He had a vice president with that capability

[Edited 2012-09-08 01:32:11]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8026 times:
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Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 12):
You're not even expecting to have a real discussion and would rather blather on with vague, petty nonsense.

How was what I said vague or petty?

You've opined that both are lousy choices. Fair enough, that's your opinion - however, my point is that we already know one of these lousy choices SIMPLY DID NOT WORK.

Therefore, he's no longer a lousy choice - he's a "can't-be-a-choice."

Say your car battery dies, and you happen to find one on the side of the road. Sure, that one you found may not work, but if you can only try one, you have to try it because you know the other one doesn't work at all.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8001 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Sounds an awful lot like our current Administration, doesn't it?

Not really. First of all, when it comes to Aaron Sorkin the only way you know someone is a Repbulican is if they are either a) explicitly stated to be such and rarely do or say anything to that end or b) are a raging blowhard or a-hole.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
This White House that feels that government is better for children than parents are.

With some parents that's the case. Education and law enforcement are necessary government activities.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
This White House that loves the Bill of Rights, all of them - except the second one."

Obama has actually done basically nothing to restrict access to firearms. Why the right wing thinks he's coming to take their guns away is beyond me, seeing as the Brady Campaign has seen fit to give him an F on their report card. People keep insisting that Obama is hell bent on disarming Americans, but there's just nothing to indicate that to be the case.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
but people seem to forget there were two crashes under republican reign.

The time in between wasn't so bad, although some of it was a bubble.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
The 2001-2 period under Bush,

9/11 had something to do with that. And for what it's worth, the tech bubble was built up and began to burst under Clinton, not unlike the housing bubble and Bush.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
Geez I so remember the Clinton nineties and especially 2000 when the $ was at such a high.

The meteoric rise of the internet (and the bubble on top of it) isn't really something that you can really pin on the president.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
* Neither Romney or Ryan has alot of foreign policy experience, wich for a country like the USA who is so very much involved around the world, is essential to have..

People leveled the same criticism at Obama in 2008. Clinton did not have much foreign policy experience either.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7998 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 14):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):Obama had none when he was elected; your point?
He had a vice president with that capability

While Biden has been in the Senate forever, he was Chair of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations for just two years. That's it. Then-Senator Obama didn't even serve one term in the Senate.

Romney was Governor of Massachusetts for four years, was a corporate CEO and the CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics. Ryan has been in the House since 1999.

I'd say in the area of foreign policy experience, Romney and Ryan are on-par with the credentials of Obama/Biden in 2008.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
I'd say in the area of foreign policy experience, Romney and Ryan are on-par with the credentials of Obama/Biden in 2008.

Perhaps back in 2008, but today in 2012 ?


User currently offlineklmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

So is there anyone here who voted for him 4 years ago, but won't this time?
That would be interesting to know. I suspect that these avid nay sayers on here where barking up exactly the same tree
four years ago.


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7962 times:

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 2):

A much more interesting question is whether anyone is changing from being a Democrat voter to a Republican as a result of Obama's presidency.

Superfly is the only one I know of, though I'm sure there are more. And while this has happened, for each of him, there is one of me, who has gone the other direction, as a result of the sheer lunacy of the tea party and the GOP's endorsement and adoption of their extremist ideals. I really didn't have a problem with the likes of Regan or Bush I. But I doubt either of those two would run as GOP members today.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 3):
Mitt and Co just do not understand the average person in this country.

Correct.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 7):

Can you not see your fantastic inconsistency? 2001-2002 was Bush's fault and yet 2009-2012 is...still Bush's fault? Lefty logic...

Or it was really just that bad. We don't often see damage that bad, I admit. I didn't vote for Obama in 2008, but the shear unrepentant nature of the GOP for the harm they've caused last decade, and are now attempting again (since 2010) has more or less terminated their legitimacy here. The issue isn't that Obama hasn't done a "good enough" job solving these problems since 2008, it's that the GOP still insists that there are no problems for middle class americans in the first place.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):

Perhaps back in 2008, but today in 2012 ?

Yeah, I think they're fine here. Not only that, but their obviously much faster learners than the GOP choices are. The Obama administration has spent the last term mending fences and building alliances the GOP contenders would not have attempted. In fact, these folks call activities like that "weak" or "unamurrikan." Really shows what we're having to deal with here...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7945 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):I'd say in the area of foreign policy experience, Romney and Ryan are on-par with the credentials of Obama/Biden in 2008.
Perhaps back in 2008, but today in 2012 ?

Nice try; re-read what you wrote:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 14):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):Obama had none when he was elected; your point?
He had a vice president with that capability

In other words, we were talking solely about the candidates' electability from a foreign policy perspective, and you implied that Obama was fine in foreign policy in 2008 because of Biden's presence. If that duo was acceptable from a foreign policy perspective then, Romney/Ryan would be equally as acceptable from a foreign policy perspective today.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7942 times:

Statements like "We should not worry about how much money we have but how much we help our community".

and

"There is no connection between financial wealth and success, It's how you help others that count"

scare me. They come across to me as socialistic.

And even though the pundits say it is going to be a very close race, Michelle Obama has said that there is no chance at all that they will lose. Barrack Obama WILL be reelected!


Obamacare? Ha!

And I saw a report on the news that said Obama has only performed 35% of his 2008 campaign promises. Promise them everything give them little seems to be the order of the day!

And I still want to know how he could afford to go to Columbia and Harvard just after making $12,000 per year working in Chicago as a housing and community activist!

No vote for Obama, The Manchurian Candidate here.

[Edited 2012-09-08 03:44:04]

User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):

And I saw a report on the news that said Obama has only performed 35% of his 2008 campaign promises. Promise them everything give them little seems to be the order of the day!

Just out of curiosity, do we have similar numbers for other presidents? This is relevant as it would benchmark what should be expected here.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):

And I still want to know how he could afford to go to Columbia and Harvard just after making $12,000 per year working in Chicago as a housing and community activist!

And this implies what exactly? Are you saying he had a good deal of scholarships? Or maybe that he was somehow exempted from his Student Loan obligations? What is this supposed to be getting at?



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12596 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

In answer to the thread, my answer would be "yes", because I don't trust Romney/Ryan (Ryaney?) on social issues; four years of more Republican rule would only serve to copperfasten social divisions - more wealth concentrated in the top 1-5% and the rest of the population be damned. And God only knows how they'd stuff up foreign policy. I still have a strong suspicion that Romney's meeting with Netanyahu may have committed him to support an Israeli attack on Iran; basically, Romney will sub-contract US Middle East policy to the Neocons and the Israelis, with someone like Bolton as Secretary of State. Yeah, that's going to end well ...

Has Obama been a disappointment? Some might argue that, BUT given the mess left by THE MOST disastrous US government in history, in almost every possible way, it was always going to be a tall order to repair the damage in a four year period.

There is a bigger worry here, however. It's like Responsible Adult and Irresponsible Adult. Irresponsible Adult (guess which party) plays fast and loose with the country's finances, taxation system and foreign policy, leaving an appalling mess behind. Responsible Adult comes, finds an awful mess, tries to tidy it, but gets derided and mocked, ironically by Irresponsible Adult (among others) for not cleaning up the mess left behind, and then, Irresponsible Adult could (potentially) get back in, make an even bigger mess, and so you had a downward spiral; this is what I fear is happening at the moment. Obama is acting as Responsible Adult and no-one really likes to be told to tidy up after a wild party, but someone has to do it. There is nothing about Ryaney that suggests that they will be any better than Bush, so the warning lights are there. The fact that they will decrease taxes for the rich, abolish Obamacare and continue an essentially neocon foreign policy must ring some alarm bells. Hopefully, there will be enough to stop them getting in.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8028 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 10):
Well, how does the saying go about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

The relevant saying is: The grass isn't greener on the other side.

The Republican marketing machine keeps repeating: Are you better today than you were when Obama took office. The smart voter ignore that question and instead ask: Is the nation better today with Obama than it would be with a Republican president?

For reference you may consider: Was the nation better after 8 years of Bush?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9746 posts, RR: 31
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

[quote=Mortyman,reply=11]* Neither Romney or Ryan has alot of foreign policy experience, wich for a country like the USA who is so very much involved around the world, is essential to have..
[/quote

The secretary of state makes the difference on that point plus the staff they hire. Having little own experience is not such a tragedy as long as you have brilliant people around you telling you what you should decide. The US President has, of course, a major word in the clubs that run the show in the world, like ASEAN NATO G20 etc. but others have too. I mean, has anyone ever seen Mrs Merkel wearing skirts? .

Domestic politics is what the people feel much more direct than foreign policy and concerning the economy, the US may soon , well, in a couple of years reach the point where labor in the some areas of the US is cheaper than in the big centres of China. That is something the economic advisors should watch closely and make the right decisions ahead.

To answer the question, 4 years ago I said YES to Obama, but 50% of that choice was because of Sarah Palin and 10% because McCain was too old already then.

I stay with that vote and this time it is 10% because Romney does not drink coffee or tea, 40 % because he does not drink alcohol and 10% because he has no humor. That may sound silly but I have a strong feeling against people who obey rules that ake no sense, sorry to say that. They can do that , whatever they like, but they should not run a country.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8016 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 9):
Furthermore, the whole premise is nonsense. As far as the election is concerned, it's not about saying "Choice A sucks, so I can't choose that." It's more a question of "Are we better off with sucky Choice A or steaming pile of crap B?"

You know, people often say that, "we have to choose the lesser of two evils" etc. I totally disagree with that. Look at the coming election. US citizens really have a brilliant choice. They can choose either a successful business man with a good management track record, great people skills, who has in the past proven that he can handle complex tasks (like the Winter Olympics) and has a good feel how the economy works, or a visionary with the power to inspire millions, who believes in giving every American a chance, who had the strength to for the first time institute universal healthcare, who began to end the wars, and who is so respected around the world that he single-handedly reshaped America's image.

Not too shabby a choice, I'd say. Which ever man is elected, Americans know they're getting a competent and strong leader with some good ideas how to bring the country forward.

Compare this to, say, 12 years ago, where people had the choice between an intellectually challenged redneck who strung one gaffe to another, and a strange cold guy who couldn't connect to people and thought he was the smartest man in the country.


As to the topic question: should Obama be reelected? I'm undecided. If I was an American, yes I would want him to remain president, because his view of how society should be resonates with mine. From a German perspective, I'm not so sure. We really benefit the most from an economically strong America (which buys our stuff), so the more business-friendly America is run, the better for us, even if it means rising inequality and people being left along the wayside. From that regard, Romney might be pretty good for us.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 2):
Quite an aimless thread, given the bipartisanship of US politics. It is really just a question of "Are you a Republican or a Democrat"

A much more interesting question is whether anyone is changing from being a Democrat voter to a Republican as a result of Obama's presidency.

I am a Democrat that will vote for Romney this November.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7953 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Quoting James Carville, "It's the Economy, stupid." And President Obama has done a disastrous job in handling it.

Has he, though? Would McCain have done better had he been elected in 2008? Would Romney have done better had he won the primary in 2008 and then the general election?

The economy was in a freefall when Obama was elected and took office. Now it's not. That's something positive, and I think you can attribute that to Obama. The economy hasn't taken off the way we all would have liked, of course, but considering where we were, I'm not sure that was even reasonable to expect. So I don't think we can conclusively rule on Obama's handling of the economy until after he's left office and we see how someone else does it.

Then we look at Romney's plan, and see how it's rather devoid of specifics about how he intends to balance the budget while cutting taxes. To me, that sounds like the sort of "cut taxes first and figure out how to pay for it later" mentality that ran around the GOP during the Bush years that results in never actually figuring out how to pay for it, and leads to an economy that looks good on the surface but has no solid foundation. And eventually, as the deficit keeps going up, that results in everything falling in on itself. So I'm very wary about giving him the reins.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7908 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 10):
Seeing how the last 4 years haven't worked, saying, "Let's try four more," seems a bit insane to me.

And" let go back to what caused the original problem" - seem even worse!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
e CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics

Which was bailed out by the Fed Govmt.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Romney was Governor of Massachusetts for four years

And how did he do there?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
was a corporate CEO

Was he a good one, or a bad one? Maybe his tax return would show how great he was

This needs an accompanying thread "Should Romney be Elected"

[Edited 2012-09-08 08:09:03]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7907 times:

I have never elected a Republican for President or any Federal office since I started to vote in 1972 and that won't change this year. I do have very serious problems with President Obama, but to me a Romney-Ryan win would be far worse for me.

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7895 times:
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I just saw a news report that feature an "undecided voter" - her complain about Obama is the he did not stand up strong enough to Wall Street in 2009.

And she thinks that Romney will?

Can someone explain.. What am i missing?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7979 posts, RR: 51
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7848 times:

I think this thread would have been less inane if it asked "Do you think the President should be reelected, despite how you feel about Mitt Romney?" Because the way it's worded now, all it's asking is "do you want the President or Romney to win in 2012" which really changes the dynamic (for the worse lol)


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):

And I still want to know how he could afford to go to Columbia and Harvard just after making $12,000 per year working in Chicago as a housing and community activist!

1) He went to Columbia *before* he worked in Chicago

2) The same way anybody goes to a college they couldn't otherwise afford - financial aid via scholarships or student loans?



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7828 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 34):
2) The same way anybody goes to a college they couldn't otherwise afford - financial aid via scholarships or student loans?

Prove it.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7797 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 15):
Say your car battery dies, and you happen to find one on the side of the road. Sure, that one you found may not work, but if you can only try one, you have to try it because you know the other one doesn't work at all.

Unless you're afraid that that the battery you found (by the looks of it) is going to leak acid all over your engine compartment, trash your battery cables etc. Then it might be better to wait until the tow truck shows up  

It does strike me as ironic that the sentiment at work for Gov. Romney in 2012 - "Anyone is better than the guy we've got now" - is strikingly similar to the "We need change" that propelled President Obama into the White House in 2008.

And I predict we will see similarly disappointing results. I may just sit this one out.


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7785 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 34):
2) The same way anybody goes to a college they couldn't otherwise afford - financial aid via scholarships or student loans?

Oh, that's right, he went to Columbia as "Barry Sarento" as a foreign student before coming to Chicago. When was it that he spent quite a bit of time in Pakistan?

Is there any record of his student loans?


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7767 times:

Yesterday's jobs report was really a scathing, objective indictment of the failures of Obama's economic policies. People can try to spin it however they'd like, but numbers don't lie: 300,000 dropping out of the work force creating the smallest labor force in over 30 years and a meager 96,000 jobs created (between 400,000-500,000 jobs a month are needed for recovery) nowhere near enough to even keep up with population growth, so the net number of people unemployed continues to grow. Obama can crow all he wants about how he really cares about the middle class and wants to rebuild it, but chronically high unemployment and a long-stalling economy are in fact destroying it, no if's and's or but's about it.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 3):
women's rights

Just because he doesn't believe that I shouldn't have to pay for Sandra Fluke's birth control does not mean he's trying to disenfranchise women. There are a whole heck of a lot more issues important to women than just birth control and abortion (though the Democrats would have you believe that's all they care about) and it shows in Obama's eroding edge among women voters in recent polling.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 3):
There is nothing anybody on here could say that would convince me Obama could have cleaned up 8 years of Republican ruin in that time.

Obama did. The incredible thing is that by Obama's very own standards he has failed. And if you honestly believe the Democrats played no part in the financial ruin with the frat house that was Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, the Community Reinvestment Act, the repeated blocking of attempts to audit Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, and the ramped up deficit spending post-Bush (whatever happened to their "pay-go" rule?) then you're a partisan beyond constructive discussion.


Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
The 43.9 million Americans who voted for Reagan instead of Carter in 1980.

   It is indeed possible to cut taxes, balance the budget, and create 25 years of economic prosperity for all income levels, it's been done before.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
The 2001-2 period under Bush,

9/11 had something to do with that. And for what it's worth, the tech bubble was built up and began to burst under Clinton, not unlike the housing bubble and Bush.

Exactly. People seem to act like Obama (himself included) was the only one who ever got dealt a rough hand during his presidency. Bush inherited the post-tech bubble recession and 9/11....now this isn't to say that I agree with how he reacted to them, but it most certainly doesn't excuse Obama's performance either.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
GOP's endorsement and adoption of their extremist ideals

They've had the same planks in their platform for the past 30 or so years, not sure why you think they all of a sudden harbor "extremist ideals" especially with such a moderate like Romney at the top of the ticket.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
I really didn't have a problem with the likes of Regan

Reagan had multiple failed presidential runs before he finally got elected and was routinely labeled "extreme" and "radical" by the establishment in both parties, so you're right in that respect as the mainstream in the Republican party opposed Reagan until he finally secured the nomination. But because he was so "extreme" and "radical" I'm sure you would have had issues with him, especially seeing as he was farther to the right than Romney  
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
it's that the GOP still insists that there are no problems for middle class americans in the first place.

Actions speak louder than words. You can believe Obama all you want about how he sympathizes with the middle class and wants to rebuild it, yet it's his economy and his economic policies which have us teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession and chronically high unemployment which is actually destroying the middle class...do you really want to reward that kind of job performance?

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
The Obama administration has spent the last term mending fences and building alliances the GOP contenders would not have attempted. In fact, these folks call activities like that "weak" or "unamurrikan." Really shows what we're having to deal with here...

You're joking right? China routinely laughs at us (literally), Putin has no respect for our leaders which shows in Putin's diplomatic relations with the US (that "reset" US-Russia relations went so swimmingly well didn't it?), and Obama remained eerily silent during the election upheavals in Iran a few years ago. Combine all that with his disastrous endorsement of the Arab Spring revolts which have seen Al Qaida come to power in Libya and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, increasing tensions in the region like never before and setting back any human rights progress made over the past decades. He may have "mended the fence" with countries like Iceland, but in every other example where it's really mattered, his foreign policy has been a failure.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 24):
because I don't trust Romney/Ryan (Ryaney?) on social issues

Well a lot of good progress on social issues does if the majority of the country is dirt poor because of the failing economy. Not that Obama has done anything at all to advance social issues with a record number of Americans in poverty and on food stamps.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
I stay with that vote and this time it is 10% because Romney does not drink coffee or tea, 40 % because he does not drink alcohol and 10% because he has no humor. That may sound silly but I have a strong feeling against people who obey rules that ake no sense, sorry to say that. They can do that , whatever they like, but they should not run a country.

Very silly indeed that the majority of what is apparently deciding your vote is nothing substantive at all.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
The economy was in a freefall when Obama was elected and took office.

That is such a ridiculous argument IMO as the economy would have bottomed out with or without government intervention...and then trying to use it as a positive for Obama's job performance? "Hey great news! The economy isn't freefalling anymore, now it's just going to stay the way it is for the next 10 years."

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Then we look at Romney's plan, and see how it's rather devoid of specifics

This is such a line of bull thrown around by both parties that I find patently annoying. Both candidates honestly do have specific policy proposals laid out...just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're suddenly not specific.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):

Should Obama be reelected? My answer is NO! Why? Because he is a HORRIBLE president and he didn't keep his promises.
What do you think? And why?

   One or two promises not kept i can see.But most of them."Yes, We Can" went to "No,You Didn't"

Also,in simplified form:
1)800,000 job visa's given to illegals on a already job stress market.
2)The best POTUS in recent memory to me to dis-unionize and polarize the union.Battle of Red Vs.Blue.
3)Name calling and bad behavior of the democrats in which Obama is allowing is just petty.Using Nazi terms.It just says it's ultra tactics of hiding Obama's failures.UGH!
4) Anti-Christ? Maybe.One example out many.God had to be brought back to the platform after protest.And even that and the Israel capital issue got booed at the convention which the LA mayor had trouble with.
5)Fast and Furious and Eric Holder.
6) In no time I can recall that a POTUS got such media protection even it when it was unethical like the pardon of the black panthers after the 2008 voter intimidation case.
7)Obama's Executive orders like "In Case Of War" that gives the government endless powers to absorb any private company.
8)JUST RECENT:The claim at the DNC of former employers of Bain Capital proven later that they we're never employed with Bain.
9)The war continues after countless promises to end it.
10)The DEFICIT continues to grow.Not stop it!
11) Two media sources,one is Yahoo,says the Obama's job report,plus or minus,going up against other POTUS in their first term, is one of the lowest in 40 years.Jimmy Carter actually had one of the highest job growth of over +2%.Obama didn't even break 1% jobs hired vs.loss.
12)Banning the pipe line.

Voting Obama,IMHO,will put us into 3rd world status.Vote Romney,even you don't like the man ,get a better democrat later on.But Obama has to go.Even some liberals are just plain scared of this man's ultra liberal,unethical tactics.

[Edited 2012-09-08 12:28:42]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

I am voting for Obama because sets tax cuts for middle class, expand healthcare to those who can't afford it, not start pointless wars of political ideology, knows global warming is real and something has to be done, sees public school teachers as people who can inspire learning and does not think elections should not be bought by a guy named Karl and eccentric recluse billionaires.

Romney, Ryan and his party would rather prefer tax cuts for the rich and tax increases for everyone else. Romney and his party harp about the size of government and red tape but believe government ought to be big enough to tell you who should love, how a woman should not make her own choices about her body and weather a citizen should vote because of a potential likeliness that the person will vote for the wrong party. On foreign policy Romney has a mentality of a cold war war-hawk he thinks Russia is the "Red Dawn", he seems to want to go to war with every Islamic country and worst of all when he supported the war in Vietnam and counter protested the anti-war protests, he did not even have the balls to serve or go himself whilst his peers where dying in jungles, Romney was in of all places, France, that most socialist of socialist European countries and he said he loved France and speaks it.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7840 posts, RR: 5
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Prove it.

Equally can you disprove it?


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7738 times:

Yes Obama should be re-elected. He may not be the greatest president, but the alternative seems far worse.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
a meager 96,000 jobs created

Most of which are for the Obama re-election campaign.
Those clowns selling Obama shirts will blame Bush again when they're out of a job after the election.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Just because he doesn't believe that I shouldn't have to pay for Sandra Fluke's birth control does not mean he's trying to disenfranchise women.

  
She was starting a frivolous lawsuit and hadn't even became a lawyer yet. If contraceptives are SO important to her, why did she apply to a Catholic school in the first place?
Sandra Fluke does not speak for all women.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
Superfly is the only one I know of, though I'm sure there are more. And while this has happened, for each of him, there is one of me, who has gone the other direction,

There is a hell of a lot more voters like me than those who supported McCain and for Obama now. Hence why there is not a single McCain state that is in play this election. Every swing state is a state that Obama is defending.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
Obama administration has spent the last term mending fences and building alliances the GOP contenders would not have attempted.

Are you talking about his 'World Apology Tour '09?
Bowing down to Islamic dictators, insulting the American citizens in front of a cheering crowd in Germany, returning a gift for our White House from our ally (U.K.) and telling his supporters to "get in their faces" if people disagree with him and his polices is hardly mending fences.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7708 times:

I'm voting for Obama - again.

While some may disagree, I consider myself a moderate independent. I voted for both Bush I & II in the first campaign and against both for their second term, based on how I believed they performed. Bush I was really hurt by the Sanunu attitude. Bush II was really hurt by Iraq, exploding health insurance costs, abuses of military personnel rotations.

It is difficult for a moderate to consider Romney because of his willingness to attack both Social Security and Medicare.

A vote for the GOP ticket time time around is a vote against my kids and grandkids. I'm not doing that.

I also believe that I cannot trust Romney when it come to taxes, especially when he continues to hide his own.

I also have a large concern with Romney's refusal to respond to specific questions.

When asked about his tax program he tells you to wait until he is elected to discover the specifics.

When asked what his plans are to help the economy he tells you to wait until he is elected before finding out what his secret plan is.

The guy is deflecting everything possible. A plastic politician.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
That looks at forty years of degrading and humiliating free lunches handed out in a spectacularly failed effort to level the playing field and says, 'Let's try forty more.'

Obviously the person who wrote this obscene comment has never been poor, and has never understood that we have millions in this country that are hungry - with one meal a day. The "free" meals in schools have ben a success under both Republican and Democrat Presidents. People like Reagan and both Bush's understood the importance. So that rancid comment may be "cute" for some in the gaga land of TV, but it doesn't play out in the real world.

Even Romney isn't stupid enough to go for that one. Ryan is, but not Romney.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 7):
Obama being reelected will only mean our dollar will appreciate even more

Could it be because you have a PM who shags her husband under the Aussie flag? Your own Sarah Palin, but on the left wing.

As for the Aussie Dollar - I should have bought more when it was 50 cents.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 7):
Can you not see your fantastic inconsistency? 2001-2002 was Bush's fault and yet 2009-2012 is...still Bush's fault?

The first Bush Recession was part of natural economic cycles.

The second time around we encountered the most horrid economic conditions since the Great Depression. It was truly The Great Recession and was the result of 8 years of Bush & Cheney showing us how successful a Conservative Administration can be.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Romney was Governor of Massachusetts for four years, was a corporate CEO and the CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics. Ryan has been in the House since 1999.

When he was Governor he brought in RomneyCare, INCLUDING a mandate. When he left office he instructed all aids to destroy documents of his administration, including wiping hard drives on government computers.

Same with the Olympics - destroy as much documentation as possible.

CEO of Bain? That is obviously going to be on the table during the final weeks - just like his hiding his tax returns. Those years might not turn into the political asset people think.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
I'd say in the area of foreign policy experience, Romney and Ryan are on-par with the credentials of Obama/Biden in 2008.

Not really. Biden did have a lot of time on the Foreign Relations Committee while ROmney could not get through a trip to a the UK without looking like a fool.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):

"There is no connection between financial wealth and success, It's how you help others that count"

scare me. They come across to me as socialistic.

You shouldn't be that scared - the GOP delivered one of the largest socialistic programs in my lifetime - that $1,000 per child per year socialist handout. All to get parents votes in 1996. $18,000 per child - cash in hand - and you worry about the Democrats?         

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):
And I saw a report on the news that said Obama has only performed 35% of his 2008 campaign promises. Promise them everything give them little seems to be the order of the day!

That is a pretty good achievement when the GOP has made it clear they are the Party of No when Obama is in office, regardless of the damage it has done to the country.

And some of those achievements are pretty impressive. Start with getting out of Iraq, killing Osama & other terrorists, Health Care Reform, keeping GM & Chrysler alive (and profitable today), and stopping our rapid decent into a true Depression.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 22):
And I still want to know how he could afford to go to Columbia and Harvard just after making $12,000 per year working in Chicago as a housing and community activist!

He took out student loans and paid them off. Just like his wife and just like millions of other Americans. Toss in Pell Grants, scholarships, etc. and you have a pretty good description of how

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 23):
Just out of curiosity, do we have similar numbers for other presidents? This is relevant as it would benchmark what should be expected here.

Well, Bush kept his promise to return the budget surplus to the taxpayers. Unfortunately he ket refunding the surplus when it wasn't there any longer.

And he promised us that there were WMDs in Iraq.

Nice guy, bad Presidency. I think part of the problem was that Bush was President and Cheney was CEO,

Quoting kaitak (Reply 24):
I still have a strong suspicion that Romney's meeting with Netanyahu may have committed him to support an Israeli attack on Iran;

You might be right. Netanyahu is smart enough to know that it wouldn't take much pressure to get Romney to do anything Netanyahu wants him to do. Romney is simply too intellectually lazy on foreign affairs and too eager to be President that he will do what Netanyahu tells him to do.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 24):
with someone like Bolton as Secretary of State. Yeah, that's going to end well .

Bolton as SecState is a very scary thought - I believe that the Democrats would block that one with a Filibuster.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7699 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
ROmney could not get through a trip to a the UK without looking like a fool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZCsfyaOGdw



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2755 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):
Should Obama be reelected?

Hell no!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
The 2001-2 period under Bush

Sorry the Tech bubble and economy decline started well before he took office. Toss in 9/11 and he was dealt a bad hand to start with.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 6):
Clinton nineties and especially 2000 when the $ was at such a high.

Once again the tech bubble hit while slick willy was still in office. Remember Enron and other such disasters?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
* Neither Romney or Ryan has alot of foreign policy experience

They still have more than he had or has now. He has been a dister.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 14):
He had a vice president with that capability

Yes the Village idiot...

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):
Perhaps back in 2008, but today in 2012 ?

Still today.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
GOP's endorsement and adoption of their extremist ideals.

What is extremist about their ideals? A balanced budget? Actually following the laws of the land?

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):
Oh, that's right, he went to Columbia as "Barry Sarento" as a foreign student before coming to Chicago. When was it that he spent quite a bit of time in Pakistan?

Is there any record of his student loans?

How about his grades? And his around the word trip stopping in various Muslim countries.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Just because he doesn't believe that I shouldn't have to pay for Sandra Fluke's birth control does not mean he's trying to disenfranchise women. There are a whole heck of a lot more issues important to women than just birth control and abortion (though the Democrats would have you believe that's all they care about

Bingo. She cannot afford the $10 a month for birth control but I bet she has a cell phone, cable and internet. What a joke

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
And if you honestly believe the Democrats played no part in the financial ruin with the frat house that was Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, the Community Reinvestment Act, the repeated blocking of attempts to audit Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, and the ramped up deficit spending post-Bush (whatever happened to their "pay-go" rule?) then you're a partisan beyond constructive discussion

Bingo agaon...

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 40):
I am voting for Obama because sets tax cuts for middle class

Obamacare is the largest tax hike on the middle class in history. Enjoy your "free" healthcare.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 40):
expand healthcare to those who can't afford it

At the expense of others. Nice. How about you run your own charity and leave us out of it.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 40):
not start pointless wars of political ideology,

Almost fell out of my chair. Thanks for the good laugh.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 40):
knows global warming is real and something has to be done

He knows it will get him more tax revenue to redistribute. Global warming is just an extension of the marxist/socialist ideology.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 40):
sees public school teachers as people who can inspire learning and

Sees them as good union dues paying members who wil donate to the cause with our tax dollars.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7694 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Actions speak louder than words. You can believe Obama all you want about how he sympathizes with the middle class and wants to rebuild it, yet it's his economy and his economic policies which have us teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession and chronically high unemployment which is actually destroying the middle class...do you really want to reward that kind of job performance?

What specific actions by President Romney do you think would reverse this?

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 39):
4) Anti-Christ? Maybe.One example out many.God had to be brought back to the platform after protest.And even that and the Israel capital issue got booed at the convention which the LA mayor had trouble with.

Leaving religion out of politics would have been better.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 39):
10)The DEFICIT continues to grow.Not stop it!

Personally I blame Congress for this. At the end of the day, our elected representatives under the dome sign the checks. Unless we get rid of them too, changing Presidents may not help much.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7683 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
And his around the word trip stopping in various Muslim countries.

I'm curious what passport he used.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 47):
What specific actions by President Romney do you think would reverse this?

Off the top of my head; Obamacare and FATCA.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 47):
Unless we get rid of them too, changing Presidents may not help much.

Actually we are half way there. The voters tossed out a lot of members of Congress dethroning Nanci Pelosi in 2010.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7668 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 10):Seeing how the last 4 years haven't worked, saying, "Let's try four more," seems a bit insane to me.

And" let go back to what caused the original problem" - seem even worse!

You're in luck then; George W. Bush isn't running in this election.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):
This needs an accompanying thread "Should Romney be Elected"

Start one.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7656 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
insulting the American citizens in front of a cheering crowd in Germany,

I swear I wanted to keep out of this. But then came this line, and I would like to - no have to - challenge Superfly where and when Obama insulted American people in front of a cheering crowd in Germany.
I consider this not only an insult to Obama but an insult to Germans as well.

Here's a full transcript and a video of Obama's speech.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...a-in-berlin-video-of_n_114771.html



I support the right to arm bears
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7649 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Prove it.

I believe Obama will be far happier to release the cancelled checks for student loan payments than Romney will be for releasing his tax returns.  
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Just because he doesn't believe that I shouldn't have to pay for Sandra Fluke's birth control does not mean he's trying to disenfranchise women.

Romney is simply bowing to the Holy Rollers, in part through ignorance and in part through fear.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Bush inherited the post-tech bubble recession and 9/11

True. He did fine reacting to 9/11, until he let the hard core fanatics convince him to invade Iraq. That was a huge failure, as was going to war on the credit card.

In the end, Bush went from the Guns & Butter approach that LBJ had to the Guns & Butter & Cake that was such a financial disaster.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
yet it's his economy and his economic policies which have us teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession and chronically high unemployment which is actually destroying the middle class..

A double dip has been a risk, even as Obama was stopping the horrid downward spiral our economy was taking. Part was because of the long term financial issues this country is facing and part because of external factors. I'm sure you are familiar with the European Crisis with the PIGS. I'm sure you have read how that has impacted our exports to Europe and increases the potential for a double dip. The situation with the PIGS (and their risks to our economy) is not something that Romney or Obama can manage.

As far as the Middle Class goes, there is no way that Romney is going to help us. From giving himself and his buddies some major tax cuts to the attacks on Social Security & Medicare & Medicaid there is nothing in Romney's "Secret Plans" that will help the middle class or the poor.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7610 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 47):
What specific actions by President Romney do you think would reverse this?

1) Pro-growth tax policies: Reducing marginal rates for individuals and families in ALL income tax brackets to stimulate spending and economic growth which more than makes up for any lost revenue.

-Eliminating the capital gains tax to spur investment while Obama wants to raise it. It has practically become economic law that when you increase the capital gains tax, you get less investment and less revenue, which is why even past Democratic presidents have been for lowering it or keeping it low.

-Lowering the corporate tax rate: The US now has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, enough said.

2) Stemming the tide of regulation: At present the Obama administration, between executive orders and the EPA, has over 6,000 pieces of regulation under study...and people wonder why businesses are hesitant to spend money?

3) Repealing Obamacare: This boondoggle of a bill has only INCREASED the number of uninsured individuals by pricing them out of the market even before the mandate and "exchanges" come into effect. Employers are dropping coverage, preferring to pay the penalty instead, and there are DOZENS of new or increased taxes including but not limited to a new tax on medical devices (not far from where I live, a medical device manufacturer in Indiana has scrapped plans to expand manufacturing here specifically due to this tax), a tax on "Cadillac" health insurance plans, and tighter restrictions and taxes on HSA's...all of these directly hit the pocket book of the middle class.

4) Entitlement Reform: Keeping Medicare exactly the way it is for citizens 55 and over, as they've planned their retirement around Medicare, while reforming it for us in the younger generation so we at least have SOMETHING left for us as opposed to letting the program go bankrupt for everybody as the Democrats seem to be all for. Do people realize that Generations X and Y have higher savings rates than their parents...that we're saving for retirement earlier and earlier because we're basically planning on not having Medicare or Social Security when we're of age? It's that bad.

....I could go on, but these are just a few of his policy proposals.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
A vote for the GOP ticket time time around is a vote against my kids and grandkids. I'm not doing that.

And a vote for the Democrats somehow is a vote FOR your kids and grandkids with their additional $650+ billion in spending of your kids' and grandkids' money in their platform? It's a travesty that Bush has already spent mine and future generations' money is ways we had no say in....and it's a travesty that Obama CONTINUES to do so.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
When asked about his tax program he tells you to wait until he is elected to discover the specifics.

I've never heard him say this, his policy proposal are specifically laid out on his website as well as the RNC's website...same for Obama. Additionally, it's ironic that you make this assertion as it's hauntingly familiar to Nancy Pelosi's "We have to pass the bill to find out what's in it" line.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
That is a pretty good achievement when the GOP has made it clear they are the Party of No when Obama is in office, regardless of the damage it has done to the country.

Hasn't seemed to make a difference though as Obama has implemented pretty much whatever he wants through executive order/fiat, realizing the dream of an imperial presidency that Nixon had.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
killing Osama

Using the intelligence and infrastructure put in place by the Bush administration. I will say this though, at least he gave the order to go after him whereas Clinton didn't when he had the chance.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
Health Care Reform

Still opposed by the majority of the electorate, increasing health care costs and the number of people uninsured...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
keeping GM & Chrysler alive (and profitable today)

...by nationalizing them, forcing them into bankruptcy, thumbing his nose at property rights and paying back the unions while shafting the secured creditors. Honestly, on an airline site, people should know better. All the major carriers have been through bankruptcy and came out healthier than ever, it would have been no different for GM.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
You might be right. Netanyahu is smart enough to know that it wouldn't take much pressure to get Romney to do anything Netanyahu wants him to do.

Right, because it's little Israel who wags our tail, not the other way around  


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7587 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Obamacare is the largest tax hike on the middle class in history. Enjoy your "free" healthcare.

Obamacare is better that death by insurance company.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Almost fell out of my chair. Thanks for the good laugh.

A lot of things to laugh about in the absurdity of right wing thinking, I've been laughing since 1994.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
He knows it will get him more tax revenue to redistribute. Global warming is just an extension of the marxist/socialist ideology

I guess you got failing marks at school.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Sees them as good union dues paying members who wil donate to the cause with our tax dollars.

Yeah fire them all, they make people smart, global warming is a hoax Is this America or Cambodia?

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 39):
3)Name calling and bad behavior of the democrats in which Obama is allowing is just petty.Using Nazi terms.It just says it's ultra tactics of hiding Obama's failures.UGH!

The right wing in here has called Obama nazis and the tea party in the early days has done the same thing, Idiots reside everywhere and you find a few here, but where are the apologies foe the sh:t load of nazi comparisons from the right?

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 39):
Voting Obama,IMHO,will put us into 3rd world status.Vote Romney,even you don't like the man ,get a better democrat later on.But Obama has to go.Even some liberals are just plain scared of this man's ultra liberal,unethical tactics.[Edited 2012-09-08 12:28:42]

Republicans have been trying to make America into a third world country for as long as Obama has been president. They want to suppress voting rights, control women on health, fire police, teachers, firemen and erase science from our classrooms more so that create jobs in this administration.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 53):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 39):
Voting Obama,IMHO,will put us into 3rd world status.Vote Romney,even you don't like the man ,get a better democrat later on.But Obama has to go.Even some liberals are just plain scared of this man's ultra liberal,unethical tactics.[Edited 2012-09-08 12:28:42]

Republicans have been trying to make America into a third world country for as long as Obama has been president. They want to suppress voting rights, control women on health, fire police, teachers, firemen and erase science from our classrooms more so that create jobs in this administration.

Sorry,the Republicans never have supported more dependence but being independent from government.Obama and the democrats wants to turn us into another Greece.Obama is doing this all on his own.

Fire,teachers,fireman and teachers? You forgot in that same line unions.WE cannot afford the unions big price tag anymore.And even democrats know that.

Woman?I guess you also forgot abortion in that line,too.The unborn have more rights then a woman in a especially 2nd and 3rd term.

Voter Suppression or Voter I.D? As far as I know, you have to provide an ID in every aspect of life.What are trying to tell me? The poor need a ride to the nearest DMV? Could I get into the DNC without any ID?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7535 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 54):
Voter Suppression or Voter I.D? As far as I know, you have to provide an ID in every aspect of life.What are trying to tell me? The poor need a ride to the nearest DMV? Could I get into the DNC without any ID?

Government Photo ID at DMV, that is the equivalent of a pool tax, why not utility ID, school ID. How come it is only as issue now, not 10 years ago?

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 54):
Fire,teachers,fireman and teachers? You forgot in that same line unions.WE cannot afford the unions big price tag anymore.And even democrats know that.

What is the big hoot about labor representation and in this case ergonomic standards? Businesses are represented by COCs why not union rep. I am totally for unions and business / COCs working together.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 54):
Woman?I guess you also forgot abortion in that line,too.The unborn have more rights then a woman in a especially 2nd and 3rd term.

I got no problem with pro-life people. I just have problems with small govt people going all big govt of personal issues of health and who can marry who. I know conservatives here mostly agree with the last one.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 54):
Sorry,the Republicans never have supported more dependence but being independent from government.Obama and the democrats wants to turn us into another Greece.Obama is doing this all on his own.

No Greece is a different issue, it had to do with corruption, unstructured govt, tax evasion and the kind if austerity measures in proposal is similar to what GOP has in kind is not helping in the crisis. Greece has a junk status bond rating, only one organization has reduced Americas AAA credit rating to AA at the delight of some in the right.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 56, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7511 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 55):
Government Photo ID at DMV, that is the equivalent of a pool tax,

Not if you get it for free, which some states offer for the homeless, disabled, and elderly. Just spend the nickel per person for free government ID so people have no more excuses.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 57, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7508 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
1) Pro-growth tax policies: Reducing marginal rates for individuals and families in ALL income tax brackets to stimulate spending and economic growth which more than makes up for any lost revenue.

Bush lowered taxes and where has that led us? The Great Recession and massive national debt.

Maybe we should go back to the Clinton tax levels and see how things improve.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
-Eliminating the capital gains tax to spur investment while Obama wants to raise it.

Sure, so Romney can pay 1%. Before deductions and slipping money overseas.

You want to see investment, look for outstanding companies. Tax levels don't matter when company performance is increasing. All your approach does is prop up the non-performers.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
-Eliminating the capital gains tax

That helps Romney & buddies, but does nothing for the Average American. It is a rip off, allowing more games to be paid while the national debt continues to increase.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
The US now has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, enough said.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
Stemming the tide of regulation:

Like all those nasty regulations put in place after saving the financial sector? You want to go back to where we were in the Bush Years?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
not far from where I live, a medical device manufacturer in Indiana has scrapped plans to expand manufacturing here specifically due to this tax

Sounds like BS to me.

If the company has a competitive product and performs for patients then the volume needed to meet market needs will be based on the patients' medical conditions.

A device for improving prostate cancer surgery is, in part, based on the number of patients who have been diagnosed, the stage of their cancer and their decisions on surgery or radiation or simply waiting.

Taxing the device something like 3% will have ZERO impact on demand - and related manufacturing. But it sure sounds good with an election a short time away.

BTW, your local company might have just given their competition all the information needed to increase their market share.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
all of these directly hit the pocket book of the middle class.

Gee, the country goes into The Great Recession and you're surprised that the Middle Class is going to suffer. Other than pushing through an unaffordable tax cut I can't see anything that the Cheney/Bush Administration has done for the Middle Class.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
while reforming it for us in the younger generation so we at least have SOMETHING left for us

They will have a rip off, remnants of successful programs. The private financial sector will have a grand time when the GOP hands over trillions with reduced regulations, protections and minimal oversight, But the middle class will find slim picking when they go to retire.

And the reduced retirement benefits they will get will be needing to pay for a lot of health care that Medicare covers today. Vouchers will pay for less & less every year. Basically it will be the Die Fast approach, but the wealthy will be in great shape, thank you very much.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
realizing the dream of an imperial presidency that Nixon had.

Actually I though that was Bush invaded Iraq with his Ego/Oil War.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
Using the intelligence and infrastructure put in place by the Bush administration.

Sure. Just an excuse for torture. and a ver, very thin tread at that. What the right wingers fail to talk about is the bad intelligence given by those being tortured.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
I will say this though, at least he gave the order to go after him whereas Clinton didn't when he had the chance.

And Bush was too busy looking for the WMDs that didn't exist.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
Still opposed by the majority of the electorate, increasing health care costs and the number of people uninsured...

But that is changing as the refund checks from the insurance companies arrive, as people see that the premium increases are far below that they were before the act kicked in, as the elderly see the the savings on prescriptions as kids with pre-existing conditions can get coverage (and older people can get coverage soon).

The question is, as the middle class loose the benefits delivered with ObamaCare whet the hell is Romney going to give them in return? Absolutely nothing.

BTW, read something about the premium increases this year are about 4.5%. Compare that to the Bush Years.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7474 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):
he didn't keep his promises.

Gee, you just described 99.9% of politicians in the world. If that's your criteria, you shouldn't vote at all since I doubt there are that many politicians out there who comply with it.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7465 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 56):
Not if you get it for free, which some states offer for the homeless, disabled, and elderly

Where do you think a homeless person will be able to keep his or her birth certificate?

And the elderly? How about that 91 year old WWII vet that Florida kicked off the voter rolls. Must have had a funny sounding name.

What are his chances? Think he can take in a 25 year old driver's license?

I find the Conservative's efforts to keep "those people" from voting to be one of the most obscene political acts I've seen. Sort of a KKK mentality IMO.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7460 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Bush lowered taxes and where has that led us? The Great Recession and massive national debt.

Look up the phrase post hoc, ergo propter hoc to see why this statement is bullshit.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7451 times:

Based on foreign policy alone, Obama must be re-elected. Other issues are not as important.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7441 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
To me, that sounds like the sort of "cut taxes first and figure out how to pay for it later" mentality that ran around the GOP during the Bush years that results in never actually figuring out how to pay for it, and leads to an economy that looks good on the surface but has no solid foundation. And eventually, as the deficit keeps going up, that results in everything falling in on itself. So I'm very wary about giving him the reins.

At least Paul Ryan (and Mitt, in his past) are willing to apply fairly serious engineering methodology to the US budget. A balanced budget solution exists. People may squeal about it, but the US has plenty of money to run its government and a fine healthcare system too. And a fine military. On 50% of today's federal budget. The rest of the world achieves these miracles every day.

But, again, for all I care, the US economy can go straight to hell if we so much as touch another country in pre-emptive warfare again. If Obama wants to appease innumerate Marxists who have never helped a single person get out of poverty with his economic dribble drobble, well, I'm totally fine with that. That's the price we pay.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7412 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 60):
Where do you think a homeless person will be able to keep his or her birth certificate?

These people just don't fall from the sky. Pretty much everyone has a paper trail: birth certificate, discharge papers, etc.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 60):
Think he can take in a 25 year old driver's license?

Some places offer ID to senior citizens without an expiration date.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7389 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 62):
Based on foreign policy alone, Obama must be re-elected.

Explain; be specific.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 62):
Other issues are not as important.

Is that so?

Signed,
The 46.7 million Americans on food stamps due to the lousy economy



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7378 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Bush lowered taxes and where has that led us?

*cough* *cough* Do you not recall the post 9/11 recession and how the economy powered out of it and the markets were regularly making record gains?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
The Great Recession and massive national debt.

No, the housing bubble (fueled by Leftist economic policies) and reckless spending by both Bush and Obama have landed us where we are today, not tax cuts. If you honestly believe that tax cuts have caused this recession, you're dreaming.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Maybe we should go back to the Clinton tax levels and see how things improve.

Bill Clinton himself doesn't even think we should do that. The economy is too weak to absorb a tax hike at any level, just look at Japan and see how well their ill-timed tax increase helped their fiscal situation. The Clinton tax rates were all fine and dandy when we had the Dot Com boom fueling the economy and one could practically spit and make money, but now? Again, Clinton himself has said he would extend the current tax rates for all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
-Eliminating the capital gains tax to spur investment while Obama wants to raise it.

Sure, so Romney can pay 1%.

Then you must know something almost all reputable economists don't. A tax is a prohibitive action, if you want less of something you tax it, that is basic Economics 101. You want less investment? Then raise taxes on it plain and simple, you may not like the example, but numbers don't lie.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
but does nothing for the Average American.

Absolutely incorrect, there are many "Average Americans" who make money from investing which is double-taxed due to the capital gains tax.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Like all those nasty regulations put in place after saving the financial sector?

...and put in place by the same politicians who helped cause the problem (Chris Dodd and Barney Frank), don't make laugh.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
not far from where I live, a medical device manufacturer in Indiana has scrapped plans to expand manufacturing here specifically due to this tax

Sounds like BS to me.

BS? Or do you just not like the reality of the situation? Here's the link to the article if you're even interested: http://www.ibj.com/cook-medical-shel...pansion-plans/PARAMS/article/35735

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
If the company has a competitive product and performs for patients then the volume needed to meet market needs will be based on the patients' medical conditions.

*facepalm* Well that's all well and great that the demand will still be there, but it does the company absolutely no favors when their costs are increased because of this tax, making the opportunity cost not worth it enough for them to expand as they were planning to. Again, a tax is a prohibitive action, they're taxing medical devices so there are going to be less of them. You say this is all BS on the part of the company? Then prove it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
BTW, your local company might have just given their competition all the information needed to increase their market share.

Right..because there have just been an unprecedented flurry of medical device manufacturers in Indiana  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Other than pushing through an unaffordable tax

The fact that you see it as a "cost" to the government for them to let citizens keep more of their own money is ridiculous, not that you're the only one who's made this argument. That money is not the government's to begin with, if they "need" more tax money to address fiscal problems then that is the case they should be trying to make, and not that it's now "unaffordable" for them to let you keep as much of your money as you do.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
They will have a rip off, remnants of successful programs.

As opposed to having nothing left? Which is the Democratic plan right now, proposing no structural reform and letting them go bankrupt.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
realizing the dream of an imperial presidency that Nixon had.

Actually I though that was Bush invaded Iraq with his Ego/Oil War.

No sir, not even GW has used executive orders and circumvention of congress as much as Obama.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
Using the intelligence and infrastructure put in place by the Bush administration.

Sure. Just an excuse for torture. and a ver, very thin tread at that. What the right wingers fail to talk about is the bad intelligence given by those being tortured.

Spin it however you'd like, but it was Bush-era intelligence that lead the CIA to Osama's location.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
BTW, read something about the premium increases this year are about 4.5%. Compare that to the Bush Years.

...and you should read something about the growth in the number of uninsured people since Obamacare was passed.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7370 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 50):
I would like to - no have to - challenge Superfly where and when Obama insulted American people in front of a cheering crowd in Germany.

He's referring to a speech Obama made in Germany when he was a candidate, saying something to the effect that the US has been arrogant. I don't know what the political culture is like in other countries, but in the US it's generally considered very bad form to criticize the US or a sitting US president while overseas, which of course is what he did and many people in the US took offense to it. I love Germany, don't get me wrong, but the younger crowd that had come to see his speech just ate that up.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 50):
I consider this not only an insult to Obama but an insult to Germans as well.

Not sure I understand why you'd take it as an insult to Germans  


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
Look up the phrase

Cute.

How long have you been saving that one?

Reality? Because of Bush/Cheney we have ben given The GReat Recession as well as a 10 Year War that was totally unnecessary. Bush was not even close to the Roman leaders when it comes to war, and he was just a little bit better than Horrible Hoover when it comes to screwing up the economy.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 63):
At least Paul Ryan (and Mitt, in his past) are willing to apply fairly serious engineering methodology to the US budget.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 63):
But, again, for all I care, the US economy can go straight to hell if we so much as touch another country in pre-emptive warfare again.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 64):
These people just don't fall from the sky. Pretty much everyone has a paper trail: birth certificate, discharge papers, etc.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 64):
Some places offer ID to senior citizens without an expiration date.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
No, the housing bubble (fueled by Leftist economic policies)

What pap. We have had government programs for years. The GI Bill has been one of the best - it is how my wife & I bought our first home. In that same new neighborhood there was a "235" program to help low income families move into a home. Helped the families and also helped the housing industry.

And, guess what - the mortgage companies were responsible and followed all regulations. The mortgage companies and the bankers were responsible and that is why the program worked. The financial sector involved in the housing crisis during the Bush years were playing every game they could invent, churning turnover with total disregard for a responsible evaluation of the loan applicants. Why worry when there was mortgage insurance available? Lots of mortgage failures from new "home owners" who made one, or sometimes no, mortgage payments.

So don't blame "government housing programs". Look at the private sector playing every game they could.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):
Should Obama be reelected?

Yes, because he's a known element. Romney/Ryan is too radical in how they would govern, which will cause chaos with some portions of the American public (cut student loans, college students protest. Cut Medicare or Medicaid, seniors and the disabled riot. Cut federal programs (early childhood learning, food stamp programs, et al) that the states adminster for their citizens, then the statehouses get picketed. Everything in America is on such a razor's edge, we could be Greece with VERY little effort. There's still 10 to 12 million people unemployed (some of which have exhausted all of their UE benefits altogether). Nothing worse than a large group of angry, broke, educated Americans that have watched everything they worked hard for disappear before their very eyes - then watch what happens when their government extinguishes ALL hope, as Mittens will do. The whole social disintergration the world saw after Hurricane Katrina could happen ALL over the entire nation. Seriously.....



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40071 posts, RR: 74
Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7331 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 50):
I swear I wanted to keep out of this. But then came this line, and I would like to - no have to - challenge Superfly where and when Obama insulted American people in front of a cheering crowd in Germany.
I consider this not only an insult to Obama but an insult to Germans as well.

Correction. It was in Strasbourg, France.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iFAzd1Flgw



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7320 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
That is such a ridiculous argument IMO as the economy would have bottomed out with or without government intervention...

Eventually it would have. But the pain would have been a lot worse had GM and the banks hit rock bottom rather than being stabilized.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
"Hey great news! The economy isn't freefalling anymore, now it's just going to stay the way it is for the next 10 years."

If that happens, and we're where we are now in 2018, then we will be able to say that Obama did not do a good job. But there's no way to know that that's where things will end up.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Both candidates honestly do have specific policy proposals laid out...just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're suddenly not specific.

Romney does not have specifics laid out for the budget. Or rather, he doesn't have specifics laid out whose numbers add up.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 63):
At least Paul Ryan (and Mitt, in his past) are willing to apply fairly serious engineering methodology to the US budget. A balanced budget solution exists.

It exists, sure, but it's not Romney's plan. You simply cannot cut taxes to the extent he wants to in a time of massive deficit and make things balance out without either raising taxes on the middle class or cutting spending more drastically than we've ever seen. And since both of those are politically unviable, more likely than not we'll end up with the budget not getting balanced at all.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
Do you not recall the post 9/11 recession and how the economy powered out of it and the markets were regularly making record gains?

That economy was great. And it was a house of cards doomed to fail. And I'm seeing a lot of the same policy behind Romney's economic plan - cut taxes and present a nice-looking economic facade, hoping that people will ignore the fact that there's no solid structure behind it. It works as long as people believe it, but eventually someone is going to point out that the emperor has no clothes, and the whole thing will collapse again. We need an economy built on stronger stuff than that. And if that results in lower growth initially, that's fine with me - we need long-term thinking, not short-term maximization of profits.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9746 posts, RR: 31
Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7312 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
Very silly indeed that the majority of what is apparently deciding your vote is nothing substantive at all.

Not at all. What I mentioned is a big part of the personality of the candidate and that gives me the creeps. A lot of what a President decides is based on what his advisors tell him. That again is based on situation. We see a Democrat President authorizing more killings of terrorist by remote operated drones than his Republican predecessor. Just to mention one.

I follow US politics since Kennedy and as a US citizen i would always have voted Republican. That changed 4 years ago and the reason was a woman from Alaska. I have come to the conclusion, that in a world which is more and more becoming a global village, the old lines between left and right have become obsolete anyhow.

It does not matter if a poltician is left or right, what matters is that the decision he makes are right.

I am glad that I am not a US citizen and do not have to make up my mind between the three choices i have, Obama, Romney or not voting at all.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7266 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
He's referring to a speech Obama made in Germany when he was a candidate, saying something to the effect that the US has been arrogant.

No, he had not! Follow the link I posted to listen to his speech or to read the full transcript. This part illustrates the American- European relationship from a critical perspective:

"In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth - that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe."

And this part could be considered critical towards America:

"I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.
But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived - at great cost and great sacrifice - to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world."


He's merely stating the obvious (no country is perfect), is critical of Europeans, too and he stresses how much he loves his country. And people were applauding, even cheering.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
Not sure I understand why you'd take it as an insult to Germans

No one else but an American President - or hopeful - could have drawn such a crowd in Berlin. Or do you honestly think the former Italian PM Berlusconi would have managed to attract tens of thousands Berliners had he started one of his Bunga-Bunga parties at the Victory Column? Putin? Laughable! The Chinese PM? Likewise laughable.
Only Americans have managed - Kennedy, Reagan, and then Obama.
Sure, it helped that people felt a relief that the Bush years were (almost) over, but so was Tony Blair's time and later Berlusconi's.
Yes, Obama has what people call charisma, but that's something other heads of states (or hopefuls) have as well.
They came because they rightfully consider the U.S.A. important, understand that Obama may become the first "black" President - the American Dream on 2 legs here: black, humble background, and now candidate for the White House.

And to assume that people came to cheer to insults hurled at his fellow Americans - now that is insulting.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2755 posts, RR: 8
Reply 73, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7262 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 64):
Is that so?

Signed,
The 46.7 million Americans on food stamps due to the lousy economy

173K new food stamp recipients this month. Real unemployment at 19%. A record 89 million no longer in the workforce. The list keps on going.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 55):
why not union rep. I am totally for unions

Are you in a Union?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 53):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Obamacare is the largest tax hike on the middle class in history. Enjoy your "free" healthcare.

Obamacare is better that death by insurance company.

But my post ws in response to your statemnet about Obama not raising taxes on the midle class. Way to avoid that.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 53):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Sees them as good union dues paying members who wil donate to the cause with our tax dollars.

Yeah fire them all, they make people smart, global warming is a hoax

Who said fire them? Just remove the collective bargaining rights or stop all political donations from the Unions.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 74, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Correction. It was in Strasbourg, France.
"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

"But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad.

"On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth. They threaten to widen the divide across the Atlantic and leave us both more isolated. They fail to acknowledge the fundamental truth that America cannot confront the challenges of this century alone, but that Europe cannot confront them without America.

"So I've come to Europe this week to renew our partnership, one in which America listens and learns from our friends and allies, but where our friends and allies bear their share of the burden. Together, we must forge common solutions to our common problems."


And?



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinevarigb707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7245 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):
Should Obama be reelected?

YES ! Four More Years...



User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 76, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7211 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):
Is there any record of his student loans?

Yes - it in his past tax returns. You know, the ones that every Presidential Candidate, including Mitt Romenys father, have releases.

See, there is value in releasing them, they can answer questions such as these

http://nation.foxnews.com/president-...ealthy-obama-pay-his-student-loans

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
173K new food stamp recipients this month. Real unemployment at 19%. A record 89 million no longer in the workforce. The list keps on going.

Yet the DOW is at 13,306.64 (as of close Sept 7th), from a low of about 6,600 back in March of 2009.

I have been told that Wall Street need to be nurtured and coddled such that it can be profitable - and if we are lucky, maybe some jobs will materialize. Someone is making money.. someone keeps investing.. but that someone has not been hiring - but they are still making money.

How much more tax breaks and benefits do the need to start hiring?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Real unemployment at 19%.

This one says its 22% - but whatever

http://dailybail.com/home/chart-shoc...-real-unemployment-rate-is-22.html

Look at the huge increase in 2008! - from 2009 onwards the line tends to flat


Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
A record 89 million no longer in the workforce.

89 MIllion! 30% of the population is 'longer in the workforce" - Can you please explain?

[Edited 2012-09-09 10:25:30]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7193 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
You simply cannot cut taxes to the extent he wants to in a time of massive deficit and make things balance out without either raising taxes on the middle class or cutting spending more drastically than we've ever seen.

I am saying cut a trillion or more annually from the budget. The emergency 9/11 and stimulus spending was never meant to continue this long. The protest that cutting spending would hurt jobs is always there... but it's not a sufficient argument to continue useless spending.

If we were spending 6 trillion a year, cutting to 4 trillion would be considered "massive cut." Or if a 600 pound man eats only 4,000 calories daily instead of 14,000, that's a massive cut also.


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7128 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Are you in a Union?

I was once, I did as good a job as I did when not working union so no I am not in a union.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Who said fire them? Just remove the collective bargaining rights or stop all political donations from the Unions.

Why shouldn't teachers, fire fighters and police be allowed to bargain? Why can't those in the public sector have she same dignity as those in the private sector?



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 79, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7101 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 68):
So don't blame "government housing programs". Look at the private sector playing every game they could.

...and who was it that made it profitable for the private sector to do what it did? Which entity was it that created a system that rewarded packaged toxic mortgage-back securities to trade on the open market? What geniuses thought it would be a great idea to float a government-owned enterprise on the open-market even though "government-owned" and "publicly traded" should never go together? I'll answer that for you, the government, and more specifically the Democrats who have repeatedly shielded these organizations from audit as they were directly profiting from the very actions that led to the financial collapse.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 38):
That is such a ridiculous argument IMO as the economy would have bottomed out with or without government intervention...

Eventually it would have. But the pain would have been a lot worse had GM and the banks hit rock bottom rather than being stabilized.

We would have a lot less debt and the fundamentals of the economy would be a lot stronger, yes the medicine is hard to take but it's necessary.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
But there's no way to know that that's where things will end up.

That's only 6 years away, we're teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession, we're not creating enough jobs to even keep up with population growth let alone to reach recovery status, and Obama has no new ideas on how to turn it around, it's not hard to see where this is going.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
Romney does not have specifics laid out for the budget. Or rather, he doesn't have specifics laid out whose numbers add up.

...and don't forget Obama's tax plan to raise taxes on the upper bracket and keep taxes the same on the lower class (never mind that the CBO has said this would cost tens of thousands of jobs).

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
That economy was great. And it was a house of cards doomed to fail.

That house of cards was a long time in the making, starting with the Community Reinvestment Act, not because of across-the-board tax cuts.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
We need an economy built on stronger stuff than that.

And what exactly is that "stronger stuff"? Be specific please.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
And if that results in lower growth initially, that's fine with me

Tell that to the millions of Americans in poverty, the greatest number ever since the Great Society reforms.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 72):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
Not sure I understand why you'd take it as an insult to Germans

No one else but an American President - or hopeful - could have drawn such a crowd in Berlin.

I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about this...I mean I don't think anyone would deny that there's an anti-American slant in Europe, nor that Bush would have drawn such a crowd if he gave a similar speech in Europe.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 80, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7085 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
It was in Strasbourg, France.

Actually that is interesting, simply because it comes after the "Old Europe" comment from Rummy - our ever so stupid SecDef.

Hard as it is for a lot of Americans to believe, there are some pretty advanced countries outside of our borders. Some very decent people, some very good thinkers.

I learned some pretty important lessons when I was in the Navy and visiting various ports, but then Sydney & Hong Kong were the first two ports we went to for R&R. Talk about a lesson in diversity!

Toss in living in Australia for 8 years and I have a very strong opinion of those Americans who can't see past the borders. That limited vision does make it difficult to understand what Obama was saying.

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):
That economy was great. And it was a house of cards doomed to fail. And I'm seeing a lot of the same policy behind Romney's economic plan - cut taxes and present a nice-looking economic facade, hoping that people will ignore the fact that there's no solid structure behind it.

You should be seeing a lot of the Bush/Cheney House of Cards in Romney - he's basically going to be a Bush III if elected. Cut taxes for the risk and to hell with every thing else. Maybe invade Iran if he has people like Rummy, Cheney. Bolton, etc. advising him.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 71):
We see a Democrat President authorizing more killings of terrorist by remote operated drones than his Republican predecessor. Just to mention one.

Obama is Commander in Chief and does have a pretty solid grasp on his responsibilities in fighting terrorists. Fortunately he prefers to send in a drone over sending in thousands of troops. Compared to Bush he seems more mature in his thinking on military matters. To be fair, Bush did have the disadvantage of being influenced by Rummy & Cheney. He simply trusted the wrong advisors. I don't know how many times I thought about how different things in the ME could have been if Bush II had picked up the phone and had a vigorous discussion with Bush I.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 71):
I have come to the conclusion, that in a world which is more and more becoming a global village, the old lines between left and right have become obsolete anyhow.

In a lot of places, but not the US. We are becoming more and more divided. The biggest factor is money - specifically the type of government the wealthy want to grow their wealth as much as possible and The Rest Of Us, many of whom simply want to have a decent life for our family.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
173K new food stamp recipients this month. Real unemployment at 19%. A record 89 million no longer in the workforce. The list keps on going.

And you actually believed that any President could have done better with the Great Recession and the huge shift of jobs overseas that is so dear to the hearts of Conservatives?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Are you in a Union?

You don't have to be in a Union to benefit from their negotiations. Do you have employer provided nanny care? On a tax free ride?

Thank the unions for that one.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Who said fire them? Just remove the collective bargaining rights or stop all political donations from the Unions.

And, at the same time make it illegal for all corporations to make donations to political parties or candidates.

Of course, when the unions are eliminated your tax free employer nanny care can also be eliminated.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 76):
89 MIllion! 30% of the population is 'longer in the workforce" - Can you please explain?

I think he is taking children into the calculation. Eliminate those pesky child labor laws and the GOP can turn their backs on kids working instead of going to school. Reduces the cost of educating the serfs and provides cheap labor to companies supporting the GOP.


User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 81, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7059 times:

If I was voting in the US I would have voted Obama in 2008 and would do the same again. If we forget Sarah Palin, I'm sure McCain could have been a decent president, however I can't say the same for Romney. Not entirely his fault, even if his "religion" makes me question his judgment, but what is really scary now is the state of the Republican party, and what having the White House and the House be GOP would mean not only for the US but for the world. A war in Iran creating chaos far closer to my home than to US soil, economic plans that would tank the global economy...


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 82, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7037 times:

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 4):
I don't think he should. I don't think he's done much to advance the economy of the country- I certainly haven't felt anything personally or seen much improvement in my community.

However, I don't think Romney is the answer either, and that's what's so difficult about all this.

  

I'm not a huge Obama fan, although I was four years ago. But out of the two options in mainstream politics he is the least bad choice. Now if only we could get a new Congress that actually represented the people . . .

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 83, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7002 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
stop all political donations from the Unions.

Stop all political donations from corporations as well and I'll go along with that.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
not because of across-the-board tax cuts.

I never said it was solely because of tax cuts. It was because of tax cuts combined with an inability to cut spending enough to properly pay for them. Thus, the deficit increases, and eventually those chickens will come home to roost.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
And what exactly is that "stronger stuff"? Be specific please.

A commitment to paying for the things that we do, instead of doing what feels good now and trying to figure out how to pay for it later.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
Tell that to the millions of Americans in poverty

Would they rather be back in poverty in ten years?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 84, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6995 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
I mean I don't think anyone would deny that there's an anti-American slant in Europe,

That's exactly what Obama said - both in Berlin and Strasbourg. Superfly, however, insinuated that Obama was catering to those anti-American sentiments. And yes, Bush wouldn't have managed to attract such a crowd. But Obama is American, too, so how can Berliners be so anti-American as Superfly paints them?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
Actually that is interesting, simply because it comes after the "Old Europe" comment from Rummy - our ever so stupid SecDef.

First and foremost, his quote is taken out of context. He criticized both - Americans for their sometimes arrogant behavior towards Europe, and Europeans for their all too common anti-Americanism.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 85, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6985 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
You should be seeing a lot of the Bush/Cheney House of Cards in Romney - he's basically going to be a Bush III if elected. Cut taxes for the risk and to hell with every thing else. Maybe invade Iran if he has people like Rummy, Cheney. Bolton, etc. advising him.

I'm going to go ahead and call bull on you being some sort of "objective" "moderate" "independent" voter. You say you voted for Reagan, then for Obama, but now somehow you're finding Romney so unpalatable despite the fact that he's not as far right as Reagan was? Combine that with the fact that your criticisms seem to be nothing more than the Democratic talking points the Obama campaign puts out, there's no way Romney ever even had a chance at getting your vote.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
And you actually believed that any President could have done better with the Great Recession and the huge shift of jobs overseas that is so dear to the hearts of Conservatives?

Absolutely, it never needed to get this bad. In many respects Reagan inherited a much worse economy with inflation and gas shortages...thankfully it hasn't gotten to that point as of yet.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Who said fire them? Just remove the collective bargaining rights or stop all political donations from the Unions.

And, at the same time make it illegal for all corporations to make donations to political parties or candidates.

How is that even comparable, when public sector unions are using tax-payer money for their donations and private companies use funds their investors willingly give them?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
I think he is taking children into the calculation.

No sir, that is the statistic for eligible working age citizens, this is the smallest the labor force has been in 31 years.

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
It was because of tax cuts combined with an inability to cut spending enough to properly pay for them.

"paying" for them was not necessary as the government was actually receiving more income tax revenue post-tax cuts than they were pre-tax cuts. What was irresponsible was the rampant increase in spending with the two wars and ridiculous growth in costs for entitlement spending, for that Bush is to blame, but Obama is also to blame for continuing with no plan in sight to curb it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
A commitment to paying for the things that we do

That would be called balancing the budget which Paul Ryan made a very serious and ernest proposal to do so. You may disagree with aspects of it, but at least he's trying. What are the Democrat's plans for that, other than the additional $650+ billion in spending laid out in their platform?

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
instead of doing what feels good now and trying to figure out how to pay for it later.

My friend, you just described the Obama presidency to a "T"...again, what is their plan to "pay for it" and balance the budget, other than raising taxes which won't put a dent in the problem either way.

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
Tell that to the millions of Americans in poverty

Would they rather be back in poverty in ten years?

...as opposed to actually being in poverty for ten years and beyond? Not that your scenario would even be the case to begin with.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 86, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6973 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
That would be called balancing the budget which Paul Ryan made a very serious and ernest proposal to do so. You may disagree with aspects of it, but at least he's trying.

His numbers don't add up. I can't really call that trying.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
what is their plan to "pay for it" and balance the budget, other than raising taxes which won't put a dent in the problem either way.

More taxes = more revenue. Combine that with spending cuts, and you've got a deficit reduction.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5789 posts, RR: 10
Reply 87, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6960 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 73):
Real unemployment

And so you are ready to readjust all the unemployment numbers from all the previous administrations? Because they all use the same basic calculation factors.
And a President can do exactly what to address this? Without the cooperation of the legislature?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 78):
Why shouldn't teachers, fire fighters and police be allowed to bargain? Why can't those in the public sector have she same dignity as those in the private sector?

They have the exact same "dignity" as the private sector, however they have an employer that has the power to tax which the private sector employers/employees do not have. So if you can figure out how to allow the private sector to tax the public then I will support each equally. Which is to say I will then NOT support private sector unions either (which I do support).

If dues payment and joining are strictly voluntary and not compelled, perhaps I could begin to think of supporting public sector unions but I don't know. The big problem is that public employees tend to be the largest single employee group and so leverage that power to elect officials that are favorable to their positions in the first place. And this combined with the power to tax, along with the ability to craft and pass legislation that changes the basic rules that apply lead me to not support public sector unions.

Quoting texan (Reply 82):
I'm not a huge Obama fan, although I was four years ago. But out of the two options in mainstream politics he is the least bad choice. Now if only we could get a new Congress that actually represented the people . . .

I generally favor one party to control the Congress and the other to control the Presidency. It tends to work better for the country overall. With that said, I expect the Republican's to win control of Congress this cycle and if that is the case then I would want President Obama to remain president. I will have to see how things look with regards to this come November.

I see a lot of deluded posts in here on what the President could have or should have done or what he caused, while people know full well very little is really under the control of the President.

A Presidents most potent power is the "bully pulpit" and of course the Supreme Court nominations. With that I generally side with more "liberal" leaning individuals regarding the court, however you can't say what a Justice will do once empaneled. And with regards to the economy, without any real cooperation from the Congress the bully pulpit can only do so much.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6945 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

People are far too shortsighted when looking at economics.

Contrary to what many liberals believe, the economic crash was not because of Bush. It was the result of decades of policy missteps involving Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Democratic and Republican congresses, and bankers who didn't calculate the risks properly. Much like in a plane crash, it wasn't just one major failure that led to the crash. It was many less noticable failures that kept building for years and years undetected and eventually the floor gave out. It could have just as easily happened on Obamas watch.

Contrary to what many republicans believe, the slow economic recovery is not because of Obama. Bush II and Obama both deserve credit for taking the appropriate actions to fend off a deeper economic depression. (bank bailout, auto bailout, stimulus, tax cuts) But the buildup to the collapse took decades, and the actions by the government have really only stopped things from getting worse. I'm not saying the government needs to do more (there are valid arguments for and against more action from the government), I'm just saying it how it is. (or how I see it at least) Sure sure, politicians promise the moon to get elected. McCain and Obama both promised to fix the economy and have it booming again by now, and both would have failed. Unfortunately for Obama, he was the one that got elected so he's the one that got to fail. I believe that the economy would be about the same as it is now regardless of who won the 2008 election. Obama, Hillary, McCain, or Jesus himself.

Economic cycles last far longer than political cycles. Only blaming the party that just happened to be in power when the shit hit the fan isn't very logical.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 89, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
That would be called balancing the budget which Paul Ryan made a very serious and ernest proposal to do so. You may disagree with aspects of it, but at least he's trying.

His numbers don't add up. I can't really call that trying.

The CBO would disagree with you. In their analysis they found his budget proposal would balance the budget by 2030 and reduce the amount of public debt to 10% of GDP by 2050.

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
More taxes = more revenue.

At a cost to economic growth in an incredibly fragile economy? Again, see how well that worked for Japan, even Bill Clinton has said the current tax rates should be extended. At a minimum, taxes need to stay where they are in the short-term, and then perhaps in the long-term once we have some solid economic growth we can talk tax rates again.

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
Combine that with spending cuts, and you've got a deficit reduction.

Again, where are they planning on cutting spending? What is there plan to reform entitlements so they don't go bankrupt in the next couple decades and stop dragging down the budget?

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
And so you are ready to readjust all the unemployment numbers from all the previous administrations?

4% (or whatever the "adjusted" number is) is the lowest unemployment can statistically go in a free society as there will be a constant number of people either not willing to work or in between jobs, ~4% is what the unemployment rate was for most of Clinton and Bush's presidencies.

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
I see a lot of deluded posts in here on what the President could have or should have done or what he caused, while people know full well very little is really under the control of the President.

While that's supposed to be true, Obama has expanded the power of the presidency in a way that even has some liberal commentators concerned. He uses executive orders much more frequency than and in ways different from his predecessors to circumvent Congress, he routinely interprets laws and declares whether or not he'll enforce them even though his responsibility is to enforce the law, the recent lawsuit brought by ICE officials is just one consequence of this.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 90, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
That would be called balancing the budget which Paul Ryan made a very serious and ernest proposal to do so. You may disagree with aspects of it, but at least he's trying.

His numbers don't add up. I can't really call that trying.

The CBO would disagree with you. In their analysis they found his budget proposal would balance the budget by 2030 and reduce the amount of public debt to 10% of GDP by 2050.

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
More taxes = more revenue.

At a cost to economic growth in an incredibly fragile economy? Again, see how well that worked for Japan, even Bill Clinton has said the current tax rates should be extended. At a minimum, taxes need to stay where they are in the short-term, and then perhaps in the long-term once we have some solid economic growth we can talk tax rates again.

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
Combine that with spending cuts, and you've got a deficit reduction.

Again, where are they planning on cutting spending? What is there plan to reform entitlements so they don't go bankrupt in the next couple decades and stop dragging down the budget?

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
And so you are ready to readjust all the unemployment numbers from all the previous administrations?

4% (or whatever the "adjusted" number is) is the lowest unemployment can statistically go in a free society as there will be a constant number of people either not willing to work or in between jobs, ~4% is what the unemployment rate was for most of Clinton and Bush's presidencies.

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
I see a lot of deluded posts in here on what the President could have or should have done or what he caused, while people know full well very little is really under the control of the President.

While that's supposed to be true, Obama has expanded the power of the presidency in a way that even has some liberal commentators concerned. He uses executive orders much more frequency than and in ways different from his predecessors to circumvent Congress, he routinely interprets laws and declares whether or not he'll enforce them even though his responsibility is to enforce the law, the recent lawsuit brought by ICE officials is just one consequence of this.


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 91, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6929 times:

No, and if he were to be re-elected, why should the American voter feel he will out perform his first term? ...He can't run for another term so like Bush (no carrot at the end of the stick)...nothing will be accomplished...the country needs new blood and new "Hope and change".   

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9746 posts, RR: 31
Reply 92, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6925 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
Hard as it is for a lot of Americans to believe, there are some pretty advanced countries outside of our borders. Some very decent people, some very good thinkers.

The old joke is, that many Americans don't know that there is a planet outside the US.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 80):
Obama is Commander in Chief and does have a pretty solid grasp on his responsibilities in fighting terrorists.

With that, he would be classified in most European countries a far right politician. That's quite contrary to beoing a communist or socialist which he is called by many americans. That's how diversified opinions can be.

At the end of the day, a President has to do what has to be done. Obama may have a better grip on the situation than Bush jr had, but when you consider that, at the start of his first term the only "other" country Bush jr. had visited was Mexico, he adapted pretty quick on the international scene.

As I said earlier in this thread, it all depends on the quality of the advisors. Rumsfeld's remark about old Europeans was indeed silly in many ways. However, it was a silly answer to a silly question.

Politicians should be flexible in thinking, be intellectuals and they should have some kind of humor. That's not much to ask, but extremely difficult to combine in one person.

Clinto has all three, Bush lacked a bit on the intellectual side and I doubt that Romney knows what humor is. Ok, me personally would qualify carrying a dog on the roof of the family car involuntary humor, but my opinion does not count.

.
 

[Edited 2012-09-10 06:37:35]


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 93, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 91):
No, and if he were to be re-elected, why should the American voter feel he will out perform his first term? ...He can't run for another term so like Bush (no carrot at the end of the stick)...nothing will be accomplished...the country needs new blood and new "Hope and change".

I'd say the opposite is true. He would have nothing to lose and would like to let something for history (and I think his love for his country and countrymen is sincere, so he would want to improve the situation, can't say the same for Romney). W. Bush was the odd ball because he seemed to lack ambition (strange for a US president, I know).

In fact here one political party suggests to go back to the 7 years presidential term, but with a one term limit, that way the president will not be hampered with the perspective of a reelection.

Look at what Gerhard Schröder did for Germany. He prepared the German economy for its current success, that made him deeply unpopular and he lost the following election. Now he's seen as a visionary and an example for other countries.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 93):

One thing's for sure... Obama's second term could become quite a ride.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 95, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6924 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 94):
One thing's for sure... Obama's second term could become quite a ride.

I don't think so. Obama would not be illegible to run again - and the right hates Obama. Once he wins (crosses fingers). May the focus shifts from hurting Obama for political reasons and hopefully work can get done.

Remember, that the main goal has been to remove Obama- nothing else



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 95):
Quoting Rara (Reply 94):
One thing's for sure... Obama's second term could become quite a ride.

I don't think so. Obama would not be illegible to run again - and the right hates Obama. Once he wins (crosses fingers). May the focus shifts from hurting Obama for political reasons and hopefully work can get done.

No, I mean by him, not by others. One thing I expect from a second term are major foreign-policy breakthroughs. Seeing that he's got the domestic issues pretty much covered (healthcare is dealt with, the economy is on the uprise, he can just sit back and watch that happen), and seeing that he doesn't have to fear public opinion anymore, he can work on his place in the history books. I think reconciliation with Cuba is a given, that time has come. Other than that, perhaps an agreement with the Russians to start phasing out nuclear weapons? Or a Middle East deal? Climate politics? He's got plenty of energy, it's just that the healthcare thing took so much attention in the first term that he had hardly any time for foreign policy.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 97, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
Which entity was it that created a system that rewarded packaged toxic mortgage-back securities to trade on the open market?

AIG.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
we're teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession, we're not creating enough jobs to even keep up with population growth let alone to reach recovery status, and Obama has no new ideas on how to turn it around, it's not hard to see where this is going.

You are forgetting that the US economy is also impacted by international factors - like the turmoil in Europe.

Remember Europe? An important trading partner that has been reducing orders, thus reducing US jobs.

A double dip has been a high risk before Obama took office, jobs have been a problem when all those jobs were shipped overseas before Obama took office.

The harsh reality is that neither Obama nor Romney can totally cure all our economic problems because a major influence will be external. Romney will take care of the wealthy and Corporate America, but there is no way that Middle Class America should trust him. Obviously the poor and the underemployed won't have a chance, especially as the GOP close up their opportunities to vote in 2016.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
...and don't forget Obama's tax plan to raise taxes on the upper bracket and keep taxes the same on the lower class (never mind that the CBO has said this would cost tens of thousands of jobs).

Looking back at the wonders of the Great Recession after Bush II had put so much money into the top 1% (remember, THEY are the job creators) I have little confidence in the "tens of thousands" that would be saved if the top tax bracket is not raised.

I think it is a bunch of BS. The Job Creators have not performed other than shipping jobs overseas. If they are not performing then it is time to take back that extra sugar. They still get the lower rates as they pass through the various brackets.

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
It was because of tax cuts combined with an inability to cut spending enough to properly pay for them.

Don't forget an unnecessary war going on for 10 years. That has a damaging impact on the national confidence as much as any other negative factor.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 84):
First and foremost, his quote is taken out of context.

Problem with dumb statements like that is you have t live with it.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
but now somehow you're finding Romney so unpalatable despite the fact that he's not as far right as Reagan was?

Romney is unpalatable to me for several reasons.

First, obviously, is the danger he represents to non-wealthy Americans with his pan to cut the legs from under Social Security and Medicare. I paid into those two systems during my working years and they are both a part of the lives of my contemporaries. I don't want to see them destroyed for my kids (who are paying into the systems) and my grandkids. While Conservatives love the idea of shifting those trillions to private companies (with reduced regulations and oversight) I believe it would be the most dangerous actions that any politician can take.

I also find it very concerning that Romney has not released tax returns at a level his father did. With very high levels of annual income and a lot of questions being asked it is exceptionally concerning to me that he is hiding actions by him (or his wife) that would be unacceptable to the average voter.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
Combine that with the fact that your criticisms seem to be nothing more than the Democratic talking points

Queer as it may seem, a lot of people can look at Romney and find the same problems. Especially independent voters who believe in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Moderate independents know they will need SS & Medicare, as will their children and grandkids.

They also know that the GOP needs to man up and adjust the FICA levels to ensure that these programs continue, regardless of the contributions from the financial & insurance industries.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
it never needed to get this bad.

That is what needs to be said to Bush & Cheney.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6934 posts, RR: 9
Reply 98, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

No. Absolutely not.

I didn't believe the BS four years ago, and I sure as hell don't believe it now. Lot's of empty promises and buyers remorse.

That said, voting for Romney is going to be tough. Hopefully the debates will be good for him.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 99, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6920 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
Which entity was it that created a system that rewarded packaged toxic mortgage-back securities to trade on the open market?

AIG.

Three words for you: Government Sponsored Enterprise.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
we're teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession, we're not creating enough jobs to even keep up with population growth let alone to reach recovery status, and Obama has no new ideas on how to turn it around, it's not hard to see where this is going.

You are forgetting that the US economy is also impacted by international factors - like the turmoil in Europe.

Despite the problems in the Eurozone, the US dollar is still considerably weak against the Euro, propping exports from the US to Europe. The problems in the EU affect the markets from day-to-day, but has yet to have an impact on trading as our exports still have the edge.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
jobs have been a problem when all those jobs were shipped overseas before Obama took office.

Now you're shifting the goal posts here. Jobs have been moving overseas for quite a while, dating back to Reagan's presidency when globalization really came into full swing. The fact is that despite those ambiguous jobs your talking about being shipped overseas, the economy resoundingly came back with 4% unemployment for almost 25 years after the fact.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
The harsh reality is that neither Obama nor Romney can totally cure all our economic problems because a major influence will be external.

So the internal, domestic policies of the US have absolutely no affect on it's economy?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
...and don't forget Obama's tax plan to raise taxes on the upper bracket and keep taxes the same on the lower class (never mind that the CBO has said this would cost tens of thousands of jobs).

Looking back at the wonders of the Great Recession after Bush II had put so much money into the top 1%

And the wealth of the other 99% increased as well, not that you really care as you're so fixated on those "1 percenters", nor do you really care that it's been under Obama that the average wealth of the middle class has depreciated.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
I think it is a bunch of BS.

Says you, so prove it. Sorry but I trust the CBO more than you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
The Job Creators have not performed other than shipping jobs overseas.

Again, prove it. Before this recession we had about 25 years of unemployment around 4% (the lowest it can statistically go), all while jobs were being shipped overseas with those god-awful "1 percenters" not doing their job-creating duty. Prove it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
First, obviously, is the danger he represents to non-wealthy Americans with his pan to cut the legs from under Social Security and Medicare.

Verses letting them go bankrupt within the next two decades and those programs not being there for anybody? I'll say this again, my generation (Gen X and Gen Y) has a higher savings rate than older generations, because of the irresponsibility in not reforming these programs, we're already planning on them not being there for us. So what are the Democrats plans to reform these programs to make them viable? Because their plan right now has nobody being covered by Social Security and Medicare 20 years from now.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
I also find it very concerning that Romney has not released tax returns at a level his father did. With very high levels of annual income and a lot of questions being asked it is exceptionally concerning to me that he is hiding actions by him (or his wife) that would be unacceptable to the average voter.

Again, Reagan was a rich, far-right actor and governor and you were somehow able to vote for him, yet suddenly you find a rich, centrist business man and governor so unelectable? I know several independent voters and they have concerns about both candidates, but I've never met one as patently partisan as you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
Queer as it may seem, a lot of people can look at Romney and find the same problems. Especially independent voters who believe in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Moderate independents know they will need SS & Medicare, as will their children and grandkids.

Odd, as he actually seems to winning the majority of independent voters in all the latest polling.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 100, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6918 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Three words for you: Government Sponsored Enterprise.

Well, if Government is to be run like a "business" - then it should be able to "invest" freely in anything that will turn a profit. No?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 101, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6918 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):

Prove it.
Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):

Oh, that's right, he went to Columbia as "Barry Sarento" as a foreign student before coming to Chicago. When was it that he spent quite a bit of time in Pakistan?

Is there any record of his student loans?
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=8633390

Obama told students that he knows something about student debt - saying he and his wife Michelle only recently paid off theirs.

"When we married, we got poor together," he said.


As for the continued Birther rumor that Obama attended Columbia college under the name Barry Soetoro, it's as bogus as every other piece of bilge peddled by the sad adherents to that particular conspiracy theory.

http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/jan_feb09/alumni_corner

- - The graduation program for Columbia University, class of 1983 lists him as "Obama."

- Columbia's directory lists him as "Obama."

Numerous students and professors at Columbia remember him as "Obama."

Back on topic, I think he should be. I can think of no president in recent history who entered office with as much opposition to him from Day 1 as Obama or who faced the hurdles that he faced, particularly an opposition party that made no effort to reach across the aisle and were much more interested in making Obama a one-term president than actually working for the good of the American people to the point where both sides tell outright distortions about each other - for instance Obama's incorrect reputation that he's a profligate spender (see Forbes here - http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...ld-you-believe-its-barack-obama/).

At the end of the day, one of my main concerns is foreign policy and seeing that Romney's foreign policy wonks are guys like Bolton and other neo-con retreads combined with Romney/Ryan making noise about "standing up to China" and "Russia being our number one geopolitical foe," I worry that we'll wind up in greater economic shambles with more American servicemen dead due to unnecessary wars. If we're attacked, go ahead, but the last thing we need are more chickenhawks looking to rattle sabres and warmonger.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 102, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 98):
That said, voting for Romney is going to be tough. Hopefully the debates will be good for him.

Yeah,I agree with that,too.The debates is the pivotal point for Romney.I'm all in with Romney and like you and FLY, I did buy into Obama four years ago.Now,I just want Obama out of there.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 103, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Three words for you: Government Sponsored Enterprise.

Wasn't a problem in hte early 70s with the 235 program, but we had banks & mortgage companies with a higher level of ethics than we saw earlier.

BTW, the US is selling more AIG shares - posted a thread yesterday so it is

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
So the internal, domestic policies of the US have absolutely no affect on it's economy?

Didn't say that. I just made the point that international problems impact our economy. That really shouldn't be hard to understand, especially with all the challenges that Europe has been going through.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
nor do you really care that it's been under Obama that the average wealth of the middle class has depreciated.

The Middle Class sure did well under Bush & Cheney - eh what? Are you one of those Conservatives who thought the "little downswing" should be called the Glorious Recession?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Verses letting them go bankrupt within the next two decades and those programs not being there for anybody?

My Dad's generation manned up and adjusted Social Security to ensure it remained viable. My generation manned and adjusted FICA and Medicare to ensure it remained viable.

What is wrong with your generation? You live in this airy fairy world where you believe your generation will not need either Social Security or Medicare. Not the fluffy, pathetic version that the Plastic Politician wants, you are going to need the full version that both parties have manned up and changed the contribution levels over the years.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 100):
Well, if Government is to be run like a "business" - then it should be able to "invest" freely in anything that will turn a profit. No?

Don't say that in front of the Conservatives - that type of thinking pushes them back to their meds.  


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 104, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 100):
Well, if Government is to be run like a "business" - then it should be able to "invest" freely

No, never to the extent where government politicking and cronyism affects the business decisions of the firm...we see how well this worked for Olympic Airways or Air India.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 100):
then it should be able to "invest" freely in anything that will turn a profit. No?

Outside of the few Democratic politicians who personally benefited from those toxic securitized mortgages, did Fannie and Freddie really turn a profit for the government? Last I've heard they still owe the tax payers billions.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 101):
I can think of no president in recent history who entered office with as much opposition to him from Day 1

You're joking right? He had super majorities in the House and Senate for almost two full years when he came into office!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 101):
particularly an opposition party that made no effort to reach across the aisle

Right, because the Democrats have only been all too accommodating for compromise  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Three words for you: Government Sponsored Enterprise.

Wasn't a problem in hte early 70s with the 235 program, but we had banks & mortgage companies with a higher level of ethics than we saw earlier.


Precisely, and it wasn't until 1968 that Fannie and Freddie became publicly traded GSE's and 1977 when the Community Reinvestment Act was passed, setting in motion the long chain that led to the financial crisis.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
So the internal, domestic policies of the US have absolutely no affect on it's economy?

Didn't say that. I just made the point that international problems impact our economy.

It would affect us, to be sure, but not to the extent of the economy being held in the particularly morose state that has been, we would be seeing at least SOME indicators of the economy picking up and getting stronger...but we're not.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):

The Middle Class sure did well under Bush & Cheney

And it's doing so well under Obama?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
My Dad's generation manned up and adjusted Social Security to ensure it remained viable.

But when is it ever going to be enough? When 20-35% of our paychecks are going support entitlements? No thanks, at a certain point it's not worth it. In any case, raising FICA and pouring more tax money into the program doesn't fix the structural problems with it...sure, raise it now, but ten years from now we'll be in the same boat, you can't just keep raising it and raising it, they need serious structural reform. And by the way, wasn't it Obama who transferred $600 billion out of Medicare? Yeah he seems real committed to making sure it's there for generations to come.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
you are going to need the full version that both parties have manned up and changed the contribution levels over the years.

And it's my generation who will also have to man up to pay down this disgusting debt, your generation sure has heaped a lot onto our plate...thanks.

[Edited 2012-09-10 12:21:17]

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 105, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6920 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):

No, never to the extent where government politicking and cronyism affects the business decisions of the firm.a.

"Business is Business" - profits above all else. That's the way to run a Government if you ask me!

Wait - there is not cronyism in Private companies?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
Outside of the few Democratic politicians who personally benefited from those toxic securitized mortgages, did Fannie and Freddie really turn a profit for the government? Last I've heard they still owe the tax payers billions

Right - Question for you: Should have they turned a profit for the Government? - Careful with your answer - it may be used against you..



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 106, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 105):
Wait - there is not cronyism in Private companies?

Key difference being that it's not tax-payer money being sloshed around, and if there is cronyism it's usually at a long-term detriment to a private firm.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 105):
"Business is Business" - profits above all else. That's the way to run a Government if you ask me!

Even if you really believe that, it doesn't mean that government should be IN business in the private sector.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 105):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
Outside of the few Democratic politicians who personally benefited from those toxic securitized mortgages, did Fannie and Freddie really turn a profit for the government? Last I've heard they still owe the tax payers billions

Right - Question for you: Should have they turned a profit for the Government? - Careful with your answer - it may be used against you..

I don't even understand the wording of your question. "Should have they turned a profit for the government"   If you're asking whether or not I think they should have turned a profit for the government, my answer is that I don't think the government should have been involved with them in the first place. That being said, the reality of the situation is what it is, that the government has poured billions into these quasi public/private firms, so at a minimum I would simply want the tax payer money paid back and for the government to wash it's hands of these entities.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 107, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6922 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 106):
Even if you really believe that, it doesn't mean that government should be IN business in the private sector.

Why not? If that is where the profits are - why shouldn't it be?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 106):
so at a minimum I would simply want the tax payer money paid back and for the government to wash it's hands of these entities.

So you don't want the Government to be run like a Business...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 108, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):

You're joking right? He had super majorities in the House and Senate for almost two full years when he came into office!

That's a pretty good talking point, but it's a myth as well. In fact the Dems only had a super majority in the Senate for about 24 working days. To be clear you only have a Super Majority in the Senate and super majority under current Senate rules would require 60 votes to overcome a filibuster. Here's your timeline:

Status quo ante electionum - From '07 to '08, the Dems enjoyed a 51-49 majority. After the 2008 election, the Dems made significant gains but still weren't at super majority status due to the recount and legal wrangling over the Minnesota senatorial race between Norm Coleman and Al Franken. During the recount/wrangling, Coleman still sat in the Senate, giving the Dems a 59-41 majority, but not enough for a super majority.

In May, Teddy Kennedy left Washington for the last time. While he could have returned to vote, he never did, not even on Sotomayor's confirmation. The Senate also doesn't allow proxy votes, so in reality the Senatorial majority at this point is 58-41, as Kennedy would have been unable to vote to overcome a filibuster. Still, however, the Democrats technically hold a 59-41 majority.

Franken gets sworn on 7/7/09 and finally gives the Democrats a super majority of 60-40. Again, this is technically the case, but Kennedy was unable to return to Washington so the balance in actual practice would be 59-40. The Senate recesses from 8/7/09 to 9/8/09. During that recess Kennedy dies and it's not until 9/25/09 that Paul Kirk is sworn in as his replacement. The Dems have a super majority in theory and practice now, but the Senate adjourns on 10/9, giving only 11 working days of super majority.

In November of '09, Scott Brown is elected to the Senate. While he's not sworn in until 2/4/10, the Senate was in session for 10 days in January, giving 13 more days between January and February, for a total of 24 super majority days.

Beyond that, those super majorities include Joe Lieberman as a Democrat even though he was an Independent at this point and would have supported any attempted Republican filibusters on legislation he was opposed to (health care, for instance).



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 109, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6918 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 107):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 106):
Even if you really believe that, it doesn't mean that government should be IN business in the private sector.

Why not? If that is where the profits are - why shouldn't it be?

Because government is inherently unable to be run like a true business unless it's some micro-state like Monaco or Andorra. The government's goal shouldn't be to make money or "profits" but to maintain a balanced budget in performing the functions enumerated in the Constitution for which it exists.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 107):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 106):
so at a minimum I would simply want the tax payer money paid back and for the government to wash it's hands of these entities.

So you don't want the Government to be run like a Business...


No, I want it to perform as it was laid to do in the Constitution.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 108):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):

You're joking right? He had super majorities in the House and Senate for almost two full years when he came into office!

That's a pretty good talking point, but it's a myth as well. In fact the Dems only had a super majority in the Senate for about 24 working days.


Which is pretty meaningless when you consider that most laws rise to the Senate from the House of Representatives and the Senate need only vote on the House bill to pass it into law. Even 24 days over an extended period of time is more than enough time to move through a docket of House-passed legislation.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10934 posts, RR: 37
Reply 110, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

It will make no difference for me who wins or loses but I say Obama will win.

The devil you know is better than the war puppet you don't.

It will be interesting to watch the debates.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6920 times:

What is an example of Obama's broken promises:

In 2008,Obama campaigns and will promise to close down Guantanamo.That Gitmo is an embarrassment to the US in the eyes of the international community for the promotion of human rights.

Today,it was reported that another prisoner died at Gitmo in which the base still remains open.Tell me about the media's protection of Obama.

MT99: Me,no.I wanted it kept open.And said before.But Obama and the media made such a big issue in 2008 about it they need to be reminded of it.

[Edited 2012-09-10 13:58:07]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 112, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6918 times:
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Quoting PSA53 (Reply 111):
In 2008,Obama campaigns and will promise to close down Guantanamo.That Gitmo is an embarrassment to the US in the eyes of the international community for the promotion of human rights.

Did you want Gitmo closed?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 113, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
And it's doing so well under Obama?

If you go back to the famous Bikini graph you won't need to ask that question.

If you worked for GM, its suppliers and it's dealers you don't ned to ask that question.

If you have a kid with a pre-existing condition you REALLY don't need to ask that question.

If you want to go college on a student loan that isn't as expensive as Bush delivered then you don't have to ask that question.

If you were being deployed at excessive levels because of the Iraq Phuck Up (and were forced to serve after your active duty commitment ended) then you don't have to ask that question.

Reality is that a lot of the Middle Class is doing OK. Or at least those left in it after Bush & Cheney worked their magic - shrinking the Middle Class - downward.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
But when is it ever going to be enough?

Look for growing the population (especially through immigration - legal or not) and you get an easing of cost pressures on a per person basis, If you shrink the population then things are going to get a lot tougher for you and your contemporaries.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
No thanks, at a certain point it's not worth it.

You kill those programs and the spread of poverty it will cause while impact even your plans for a wonderful life. You have no idea how the elderly's contributions have helped bring down poverty for previous generations and how it is helping today.

You kill that program and you increase poverty for the elderly. ANd that will cost you unless you get right up there with Romney in terms of wealth.

Oh, yes, you had better make it to the "upper class" pretty fast if Romney & Ryan get their way.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
He had super majorities in the House and Senate for almost two full years when he came into office!

Why do people keep believing that the Democrats are like the Republicans who all march in lock step and do what they are told to do. The Democrats are a wide open party, from conservatives to liberals. Will Rogers said it best when he said he didn't belong to an organized political party - he was a Democrat.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
And by the way, wasn't it Obama who transferred $600 billion out of Medicare?

You been reading that Romney Pap again?

Think about it. For years the "excuse" for increased cost of care (and therefore insurance premiums) have been the large number of people getting treatment who couldn't pay for that treatment. Remember? Caused my premiums to double in Bush II's first term.

Now, with the mandate the insurance industry and health providers have agreed that they don't need those very big increases. This year's increase in premiums is at about 4.4% IIRC.

That is a huge change and allows for a reduction in costs without reducing treatments, tests, etc. And it allows for reductions in medicare.

The other big cut is in Medicare Advantage. That was the program that was designed to prove that private industry could do a better job than the government. Remember that? So private industry got a 15% surcharge to get started, but have never been able to perform without that excess cost. Health care reform takes that 15% overcharge away. Nice to see IMO.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
And it's my generation who will also have to man up to pay down this disgusting debt, your generation sure has heaped a lot onto our plate...thanks.

Live with it. By the time you hit 65 your generation will have added far more to the nations debt. In addition the debt we have today will be diminished in value because of inflation - just like our parents debt is of lower value today.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 107):
Why not? If that is where the profits are - why shouldn't it be?

There is no reason why the government cannot participate in business activities. Medicare Private in Australia was set up because the Government saw how profitable that market was. When I had to select a policy when doing business down there I found them to be the most competitive.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 107):
So you don't want the Government to be run like a Business...

Business doesn't want government competition. Look how they fought to avoid a public option under health care. The simple reality is that government has outperformed private companies when it comes to health care. Medicare kicks Medicare Advantage's ass when it comes to delivering health care at good price.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Before this recession we had about 25 years of unemployment around 4%

You actually expect us to believe that unemployment was never over 4% for the past quarter of a century?

Where did you get that? Ryan get wonky on you?         


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4795 posts, RR: 3
Reply 114, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting YankeesFan (Thread starter):
Should Obama be reelected? My answer is NO! Why? Because he is a HORRIBLE president and he didn't keep his promises.
What do you think? And why?

Obama should be reelected.
The Alternative is a person that is not transparent about his taxes or the tax loopholes he would close to raise revenue while cutting tax rates.
Obama succeeded in Obamacare which was a promise. we are out of Iraq, and working on getting out of Afghanistan. Osama bin laden was dealt with. The US is recovering from the Recession.

Romney and Ryan seem to me to be part of a movement that seeks to make things seem worse than they are, and yet not offer clear enough solutions that really feel better than the current path.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemajestic477 From Ghana, joined Sep 2012, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6918 times:

Do you guys think all there is about foreign policy is meddling in other countries affairs. In the 80s that was fine because there was the cold warand everybody was trying to win over friends. Things have changed now and i think that obama is doing fine. There was nt the need to send troops to iraq part ofyour economic problems is due that particular war. Afghanistan was a problem so justified it was. Those two wars have affected the whole world economically since we all depend on the US. You think people hate america? No it is your government and not the american ppl they are wonderful. Hell even fidel castro loves the american people.

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 116, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6894 times:

Quoting majestic477 (Reply 115):

Do you guys think all there is about foreign policy is meddling in other countries affairs.

The problem you're overlooking is this - like it or not, the US is the World's Leader (or Policeman)..like it or not, that is the way it is.

Being the social creature/animal that humans are .. requires a leader in MOST group situations, from Boy Scouts to Nations.

The Russians could be that leader, the Chinese, the British have been and for a time so were the French and history is littered with different ruler/leader nations and empires.

It will always be so even if we become Corporate Nations or states.

The Case for Obama's Re-Election

Romney alone makes that case.

Just like George W Bush, Romney's youth years indicate a troublesome trajectory as an adult.

The widely reported ganging up and and cutting that gay kid's long hair - that event ruined that young man's life, I'm certain he never attended a high school reunion because of that single event - BUT more telling is how Romney handled it today..blowing it off as pranking around - that's a disturbing trait that lends to an abusive attitude without remorse. He's never made the necessary adjustment to check his attitude. I made a few people's lives miserable in HS and in the military (and some mine in the USAF) and have felt awful about it to this day and would never gaff it off as just joking around today.

Romney's car accident that killed Leola Anderson while he was running from Vietnam Military Service (in the US) getting 'his mormon on' in Paris (google it..hundreds of links)

It has all the coverup fingerprints as does the accidental female deaths involving Anhauser-Busch heir Augustus Busch III ( of which one occurred on my street where I lived at the time).

These two events alone... are telling of person's character and demeanor. And it explains perfectly how being a version of Carl Ican, Frank Lorenzo Vulture Capitalist with his company Bain makes sense.

For the first time every, many people in the United States are considering placing man who 'personally' (as in hands on) has been directly involved in the wholesale destruction of the lives of families enriching himself in doing so. A lot of Americans have a 'direct and personal' grievance with the very man who destroyed their livelyhoods. It exactly like voting for Carl (I destroyed TWA) Ichan and Frank (I destroyed Eastern Airlines) Lorenzo for President of the United States.. except it most likely that Ichan and Lorenzo weren't lifelong maladjusted bullies and hypocrites.

The latest revelations of Romney even starting Bain with capital from the very families responsible the Central American death Squads put's Obama's Bill Ayers associations at a lightyear distance when measured as who's worse in judgment.

If Romney was so successful in turning lives around at Bain he's be crowing about it 247.. but he knows true victims will fly outta the woodwork if he goes there.

But success as a vulture capitalist doesn't mean success at running and airline or shipping conglomerate..it appears to point to his ability to teardown and destroy and line his pockets no matter who gets hurt. The high school attitude continues.

Republicans love waving the American flag, wearing it on their suits, hanging it on their porch and stickers on their cars..and this guy loves America so much that keep larges chunks of his wealth in other countries to dodge US Tax Laws while manipulating the taxes codes as much as possible...oh he loves America a lot, he won't fight for it, he won't even embrace his tax bracket but he will skirt it at every opportunity. But he loves America.

He's has blatantly lied about his time at Bain while being Gov of Massachusetts and now busy trying to figure how to undo that blunder (a good indicator as to why the Tax Returns will not be released)

As Governor of Massachusetts, the state went from 32nd to 47th in Job Creation during his term.
Residents of Massachusetts have rated him the WORST Chief Executive in the States History - so how is that some people reach the conclusion that someone rated as a state's WORST executive... is worthy for the chief stewardship of the United States of America??? The defies logic on every possible level.

Romney managed to secure 1.3 Billion US Taxpayer dollars in his 'rescue' of the Salt Lake City Olympics.. now, who on earth couldn't 'save' the Salt Lake City Olympics with a 1.3 Billion Gov't boost? The Burning Man crew could have pulled it for 10th of the cost. Does the allocation of these funds tie into Romney's Tax Return disclosures??? Possibly so.. his Bain Attitude tells us he does nothing free or cheap...so his saving of the Salt Lake City Olympics Games came at an 'unknown price'.

Personally, after Bush's 'listening to God'.. and now Romney's closeness with head of the Mormon Church, totally disturbs me! A religion that believes a planet called Kolob exist for them out there somewhere? Places him in the same boat as Marshall Applewhite, the San Diego Heaven's Gate based religious group that organized their mass suicide in 1997. It was the largest mass suicide to occur inside the U.S.

..don't like the smell of that all in US leadership.

His choice of Paul Ryan about as bad if not worse than John McCain's Sarah Palin's selection.

GOP-ers love bashing Obama's time in the Senate whereas, while there Obama sponsored 137 Bills in his 3 years in the Senate vs Ryan's 73 in 13 years.

Ryan is a whole other thread by himself... I'll wait for that one.

Romney, since the (now youtubed) 1988 Debate with Ted Kennedy maintains the same empty soulless mentality he exhibited back then...to this very day.


He as President would be as disastrous as George W Bush without question, especially with the Koch Brothers, Adelson and Donald Trump behind him calling the shots.

Romney is already poised to allow the Neo Con Wolfowitz/Rove/Rumsfeld Team back in to administer Foreign Policy. The Foreign Policy experience Romney has is hiding money abroad..that's he so he MUST outsource Foreign Policy to the NeoCons.

Being Among the 1% ... is also where his loyalty lies, not with the Middle Class or the Poor - that comes across as clear as day. And at the moment, the Middle Class is the adhesive that holds America together, it does not need another nemesis - and Romney is exactly that.

.. I could go on, there is so much baggage against this man being the leader of the Free World Champion United States it's down right tragic that so many have not done their homework in vetting this man.

If President Obama had ran off to Paris he'd be done for.
That that woman was killed in Obama's car... McCain would be President today.

Obama by just being the half-black man that he is simply is not permitted to have everything listed above attributed Romney's history under his resume - if were, he may not have even made it to Senator.


I seriously cannot think of a better man to have been on the scene when President Obama came along at the nascent stages of the recent horrific Economic downturn. And those who expected a 3 or 4 years fix of a disaster 8 years in the making are like children upset over not getting enough toys for Christmas - greedy, selfish and egregiously inconsiderate.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 117, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6868 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 100):
Well, if Government is to be run like a "business" - then it should be able to "invest" freely in anything that will turn a profit. No?

No. The government should be run like a business in the sense that they need to work more efficiently to squeeze the most out of every dollar and pay attention to their balance sheets while being as lean as possible, not in the sense that they should be investing to make a profit. The government should govern and only govern. They are not an investment fund, there are plenty of those around.

If you could choose which government I want to have and pay taxes to from a number of options it might be a different story. But you only have one government and paying taxes to it is mandatory, therefore if that government is investing in private companies, they are investing my money. Essentially, having the government participate in investments is them saying "you will buy stock in these companies, or you'll go to jail for tax evasion." Say what you want about the banking industry, but no financial adviser or fund manger can do that.

Government should not be run as a for profit enterprise, but it needs to stop being run as a for loss enterprise.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
My Dad's generation manned up and adjusted Social Security to ensure it remained viable. My generation manned and adjusted FICA and Medicare to ensure it remained viable.

That pattern right there shows exactly why Social Security is a crappy program. It is a Ponzi scheme and not a real investment. Real investments do not require a constant intake of money from investors, but of course Social Security is not a real investment. It needs to be phased out before it collapses or sucks up more and more wealth.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 103):
You live in this airy fairy world where you believe your generation will not need either Social Security or Medicare.

I live in the real world that sees Social Security for what it is and accepts the reality that it is not viable (increasing contributions is only a temporary measure, until the next time contributions need to be increased. Rinse and repeat)
and that one way or another it would be silly to count on it when I want to retire.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
If you worked for GM, its suppliers and it's dealers you don't ned to ask that question.

GM screwed up and didn't have to pay the price. That punishes every company (and their likely middle class employees and shareholders) that did things the right way.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Look for growing the population (especially through immigration - legal or not) and you get an easing of cost pressures on a per person basis, If you shrink the population then things are going to get a lot tougher for you and your contemporaries.

See, that's exactly why it's a bad investment: it always needs more money from investors, whether that means more money from present investors or just more investors.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
You kill those programs and the spread of poverty it will cause while impact even your plans for a wonderful life

That's why Social Security needs to be phased out in an orderly fashion. Avoiding increases in contributions or a crash is a good thing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
While Conservatives love the idea of shifting those trillions to private companies (with reduced regulations and oversight)

Let's get one thing straight: phasing out Social Security would not shift trillions to private companies. Phasing out Social Security would shift that money back to the people who earned it and to whom it actually belongs. What happens to it then is their business: could be a mattress, could be CDs at a local bank, could be the stock market, could be various funds, could be real estate, or it could be the government in the form of savings bonds. If you really think the government is a good investment, it's right there for you. I just don't want it to be mandatory.

It's just more freedom, I hope that doesn't scare anybody.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 118, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6833 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 109):
Because government is inherently unable to be run like a true business unless it's some micro-state like Monaco or Andorra.

Like HP is that professional at running a business these days? How many CEOs have they had. How many billions did one of those CEOs (the broad) blow on buying Compaq? How did that HP tablet that had to be cleared out at $100 work for you?

Why was the health insurance industry in such a panic to avoid a public option as competition?

I don't see a lot of companies doing that much better than the government. It is just an old myth that only private enterprise can do anything right, and all government efforts are failures.

That 15% surcharge that Medicare Advantage needed over Medicare is simply more proof that private enterprise is not the holy grail.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 109):
The government's goal shouldn't be to make money or "profits"

Why not? The more profits they make the less they will need to raise in taxes? And look at how the Conservatives howl at the Post Office for their financial problems (conveniently forgetting that it was the GOP that is the main cause for the Post Offices problems.)

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 109):
No, I want it to perform as it was laid to do in the Constitution.

What was laid out in the Constitution was the exclusion of women voting and allowing of slavery. The Constitution allowed people to be "owned"? Slaves? And women not allowed to vote, or hold office.

No matter how you slice it the Constitution originally delivered in a defective state. It has been amended over the years, but it is still open to challenge and improvement. That means that the Government is open to doing more than the Founding Fathers imagined. One only has to look at the invasion of Iraq and subsequent 10 year war as something the Founding Fathers never considered.

I see no value in being obsessed with "state rights" when those rights fail to deliver Equal Protection to all Americans, or when it fails to deliver economies of scale. But then my loyalty is to my country. IMO loyalty to a state is only of value for university level sports. LIke the OU - Texas football game coming up soon.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 119, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6827 times:
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Quoting casinterest (Reply 114):
Obama succeeded in Obamacare which was a promise

You mean he rammed it down the collective throats of the American people, the majority of which were against it.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 120, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6825 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 120):
You mean he rammed it down the collective throats of the American people, the majority of which were against it.

Same can be said for the war in Iraq..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 121, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6814 times:
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Quoting mt99 (Reply 121):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 120):You mean he rammed it down the collective throats of the American people, the majority of which were against it.
Same can be said for the war in Iraq..

Except wars eventually end.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 122, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6809 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 122):
Except wars eventually end.

Tell that to the soldiers at the VA..

In any case - so as long as it is temporary, its OK to be shoved down the countries throat? Good to know.

Also, the health care achievements by Obama are SO unpopular that Romeny has made a U-turn..

"GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney surprised some people on Sunday when he said he would keep two key provisions of the president's health care law. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/romney...-11e1-98c6-ec0a0a93f8eb_video.html



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 123, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6806 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 90):
The CBO would disagree with you. In their analysis they found his budget proposal would balance the budget by 2030 and reduce the amount of public debt to 10% of GDP by 2050.

If it can be followed. The problem, and what I meant by "numbers don't add up", is that it can't. Its expectations of what government spending can be brought down to are unreasonable and impossible.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 90):
At a cost to economic growth in an incredibly fragile economy? Again, see how well that worked for Japan, even Bill Clinton has said the current tax rates should be extended. At a minimum, taxes need to stay where they are in the short-term, and then perhaps in the long-term once we have some solid economic growth we can talk tax rates again.

Would it really come at a cost to economic growth? Germany's got higher taxes than the US, but their economy is doing fine. So are the economies of several other countries with higher taxes than the US. Obviously, raise taxes too much and you'll get a negative result, but I don't think we're at that point yet.

I'd be fine with keeping taxes where they are in the short term also, but then we'll have to accept a slower reduction in the deficit. My beef with Romney's plan isn't even about taxes as much as it is about not making one particular section of the population shoulder a disproportionate amount of the burden of paying for the deficit. Cutting taxes for the wealthy is good for them while cutting spending is bad for the middle and lower classes, which doesn't strike me as very fair - the wealthy are at least as culpable for the recession as everyone else. In a closed system, you could argue that cutting taxes on the wealthy would lead to more jobs, but with a global economy, that's not the case. Jobs will be created, sure, but there's no guarantee that they'll be jobs in the US.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 124, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Quote:
BN747


Sing it Glenn Beck!
Where's the chalkboard?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
If you worked for GM, its suppliers and it's dealers you don't ned to ask that question.

At the expense and subsidization of the tax payer. How much are they making on that new Chevy Volt? Oh right, -$49,000 per unit. Had GM gone through BK reorganization and not nationalization, they would have been a leaner, healthier company. All that money subsidizing GM worker, suppliers...etc has just been forcibly shifted from others in the private sector to GM...a pretty sorry example.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
If you have a kid with a pre-existing condition you REALLY don't need to ask that question.

Not really, ever heard of SCHIP?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
If you want to go college on a student loan that isn't as expensive as Bush delivered then you don't have to ask that question.

And a lot of good that does us if we're unable to find jobs when we graduate. I've not noticed any difference in my student loans from between Bush and Obama, and if I did, again it would be at the tax-payers' expense.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
But when is it ever going to be enough?

Look for growing the population (especially through immigration - legal or not) and you get an easing of cost pressures on a per person basis, If you shrink the population then things are going to get a lot tougher for you and your contemporaries.

The cost projections on Social Security already include population growth...I mean unless everyone in my generation decides to have six kids, we're still screwed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
No thanks, at a certain point it's not worth it.

You kill those programs and the spread of poverty it will cause while impact even your plans for a wonderful life.

Again, we're only asking that these programs be restructured so they DO exist when our time comes versus these programs killing themselves on their own.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Why do people keep believing that the Democrats are like the Republicans who all march in lock step and do what they are told to do. The Democrats are a wide open party, from conservatives to liberals.

Ha! Right. Because the Pelosi and Reid majorities were just the ultimate reflections of the diversity in the Democratic voting bloc.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
And it's my generation who will also have to man up to pay down this disgusting debt, your generation sure has heaped a lot onto our plate...thanks.

Live with it.

Truly spoken like somebody from a generation who won't have to deal with it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
By the time you hit 65 your generation will have added far more to the nations debt.

...and it doesn't HAVE to be that way.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Business doesn't want government competition.

Because how is it even remotely fair or just competition when the other side has an unlimited piggy bank and doesn't need to make money off their product? And you say I live in an 'airy fairy tale'?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
The simple reality is that government has outperformed private companies when it comes to health care. Medicare kicks Medicare Advantage's ass when it comes to delivering health care at good price.

Yeah we'll see how well that works with the ever-shrinking pool of doctors accepting Medicare (because the government continues to cut reimbursement rates) and the exploding population of Medicare recipients.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
You been reading that Romney Pap again?

Only if you consider the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act "Romney Pap".

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Before this recession we had about 25 years of unemployment around 4%

You actually expect us to believe that unemployment was never over 4% for the past quarter of a century?

Reread what I wrote: "Before this recession we had about 25 years of unemployment around 4%" nowhere did I say that unemployment never went above 4% in the last 25 years.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
Like HP is that professional at running a business these days?

Again, why are you trying to make the fallacious connection between a PRIVATE enterprise which receives money from WILLING investors and a government which receives money through TAXES via COERCION.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
The more profits they make the less they will need to raise in taxes?

...or, the less they spend and the more they balance their budget the less they will need to raise in taxes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
What was laid out in the Constitution was the exclusion of women voting and allowing of slavery. The Constitution allowed people to be "owned"? Slaves? And women not allowed to vote, or hold office.

Which was tactfully and purposefully created with the ability to be AMENDED to accommodate those changes which the founders knew would need to be addressed but were, at the time, impossible to do due to the social realities of the time.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
No matter how you slice it the Constitution originally delivered in a defective state.

Only a Leftist....


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 125, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6787 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Which was tactfully and purposefully created with the ability to be AMENDED to accommodate those changes which the founders knew would need to be addressed but were, at the time, impossible to do due to the social realities of the time.

You say that as if the founders really wanted women to be able to vote, but thought it wouldn't fly socially, which is quite a stretch. I don't think they did want women or blacks to be able to vote. That's not a criticism of them per se, since that was the common thought at the time. But the amendment process was put into the Constitution not so that people could one day make the changes the founders really wanted to do but couldn't, but rather to recognize the reality that circumstances change and the document needed to be able to change as well to reflect this.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Only a Leftist....

I wouldn't go so far as to say "defective" (I'd probably say "imperfect"), but in principle he's right.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 126, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
not in the sense that they should be investing to make a profit.

Why not? All a profit means is that less taxes would be needed for the same level of services.

And I like the idea of government competing with private industry. We saw it in the Medicare/Medicare Advantage comparisons - government delivers at a better price.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
They are not an investment fund, there are plenty of those around.

And none are as trustworthy as the Treasury, Conservatives are trying to change that, but the SS Trust FUnd has been one of the most trusted Funds around - and has funded major infrastructure investments for generations.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Government should not be run as a for profit enterprise,

Correct. We expect higher standards from government. Screw-ups like the Bush/Cheney invasion of Iraq are, IMO, the odd FUBAR in an otherwise normal government.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
That pattern right there shows exactly why Social Security is a crappy program

You need to get some quotes for matching all parts of SS. Retirement programs, death programs for children, disability insurance. You might be surprised.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
Real investments do not require a constant intake of money from investor

But a SS replacement (all areas) will be taking money from you every month and every year you will get some impressive premium increases.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
but of course Social Security is not a real investment.

No. of course not. It's death benefits (just ask Paul Ryan), it's disability programs and it is a retirement program.

People play games just looking at those who made it to 65 or so in decent condition.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
that one way or another it would be silly to count on it when I want to retire.

If you don't fight like hell for it you are going to have over-priced private options shoved down your throats at a higher price.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
GM screwed up and didn't have to pay the price.

They paid a pretty stiff price. Just ask those on the Pontiac lines.

But it wasn't liquidated like Romney would have preferred.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
That punishes every company (and their likely middle class employees and shareholders) that did things the right way.

Cry me a river. How many companies do you know that have not screwed up at some point in their past.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
See, that's exactly why it's a bad investment: it always needs more money from investors, whether that means more money from present investors or just more investors.

You continually forget about the other programs in Social Security. Read up on Paul Ryan and the Social Security checks he received when his father died.

Shut down SS and we will need a mandated replacement for all SS benefits. You'll be paying every month and, at some point, will realize that the private benefits fall short of the government programs and cost more. Wow! Big Surprise!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
That's why Social Security needs to be phased out in an orderly fashion. Avoiding increases in contributions or a crash is a good thing.

Take a good look at your dream team - the lower half (Ryan) received Social Security checks after his father died. Received them until he was 18 and used that monty to pay for university.

Reality is that SS isn't just a retirement program. It's an insurance program and Paul Ryan is a Poster Boy for that aspect.

It is also a disability program - let's not forget that.

So you want to exchange all factors of Social Security to private programs? First, be able to pay out the nose There is going to be "mandates" that you will ned to pay. Social Security standards PLUS the profit requirements of a private company. And you'll need to ensure you get a reputable company that will be around when you retire - maybe an AIG? Pick a good one as they need to last a long, long time.

BTW, don't look to a need to man up and make adjustments to SS now & then. You will get your annual notice of premium increases and that will probably grow faster than SS increases. You can see that coming when Medicare Advantage required a 15% surcharge over Medicare.

But, hey, you have the money to meet those mandated private premiums and aren't worried about how high they might go.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 122):
Except wars eventually end.

Since we are still paying out Veterans benefits from WW II the costs associated with that war continues to grow, and right now they are growing at 2012 prices.

Bush's Ego War has gone on a long time, but 18 year olds injured in the last year, living into their 80s puts the Iraq FUBAR generating cost through 2075 - at a minimum. And those costs will increase - we don't pay long term costs in 2012 dollars.

Now if we can just keep Romney out of Iran.         


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 127, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6770 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 90):
The CBO would disagree with you. In their analysis they found his budget proposal would balance the budget by 2030 and reduce the amount of public debt to 10% of GDP by 2050.

If it can be followed. The problem, and what I meant by "numbers don't add up", is that it can't. Its expectations of what government spending can be brought down to are unreasonable and impossible.

That part is purely your opinion, of course those numbers can only be reached IF his provisions are followed. But again, you may disagree on parts of his proposal, but at least he's trying to put forth a solution and something to work at towards solving the problem, what is the Democrat proposal? There hasn't been one, only below-the-belt criticisms of Ryan for at least TRYING.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
Would it really come at a cost to economic growth?

Research the ill-timed tax hike the Japanese implemented last decade. Not only does history tell us it will, but the CBO is also saying it will.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
Germany's got higher taxes than the US, but their economy is doing fine.

1) Their economy really isn't doing fine, they have their own issues plaguing them at the moment.
2) They've always had higher taxes, it wasn't like they just recently raised them, or more pointedly raised them during an economic crisis.

Quoting Mir (Reply 126):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Which was tactfully and purposefully created with the ability to be AMENDED to accommodate those changes which the founders knew would need to be addressed but were, at the time, impossible to do due to the social realities of the time.

You say that as if the founders really wanted women to be able to vote, but thought it wouldn't fly socially, which is quite a stretch.

Not really, their thoughts and views can be readily found in much of their surviving writings and publications. Many knew that slavery was wrong and not consistent with the philosophy and proclamation codified in the Declaration of Independence and it was a very large issue at the Constitutional Convention. Thomas Jefferson wrestled greatly with the issue, knowing it wasn't right but unfortunately sided on the other side of the issue. Regarding woman, again when they proclaimed that "all men are created equal...endowed by their creator...etc" it would be impossible for them to believe and so boldly express those ideas without considering the idea of all people (blacks, women...etc) participating in elections, and indeed they had the foresight of creating mediums through which things could be changed.

Quoting Mir (Reply 126):
But the amendment process was put into the Constitution not so that people could one day make the changes the founders really wanted to do but couldn't, but rather to recognize the reality that circumstances change and the document needed to be able to change as well to reflect this.


The key difference of the day being that Leftists aren't willing to go through the amendment process because, quite simply, they wouldn't be able to ratify their amendments...for a good reason, it's difficult and requires a significant majority of the electorate to approve a constitutional amendment.

Quoting Mir (Reply 126):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Only a Leftist....

I wouldn't go so far as to say "defective" (I'd probably say "imperfect"), but in principle he's right.

But this is the point, you're never going to have perfection on this earth so long as imperfect people are running things. I believe that our constitution and our government is the MOST perfect we'll have. Endlessly pursuing nirvana on earth, which doesn't and never will exist, will only result in more people in misery. I believe that Milton Friedman put it best when he said, "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 128, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6758 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
Why not?

Because it's not their place. The government is there to keep the track wet, not bet on horses.

But there's a bigger reason: it's because government and taxes are mandatory and therefore having a government that invests money in private companies is a restriction on my financial freedom. Mutual funds and hedge funds won't knock on your door and threaten to put you in prison if you don't invest money with them but the government does. Forcing people to pay for government services they receive is one thing, but forcing people to invest in this company or that company is completely out of line. If I wanted stock in GM, I would have bought it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
And none are as trustworthy as the Treasury,

If you feel that way here is what you do: go get your retirement fund and invest it in Treasury Securities. Just like that, you have your trustworthy investment. You can even do it via the internet. If you like the Treasury that much, by all means, invest in it. But leave my money alone.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
But a SS replacement (all areas) will be taking money from you every month and every year you will get some impressive premium increases.

...unless of course I decide it's too expensive and drop the coverage. And what would increasing FICA be if not a premium increase?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
They paid a pretty stiff price. Just ask those on the Pontiac lines.

Not as stiff as they deserved. Yeah having your company go out of business sucks, but that's just part of life sometimes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
But it wasn't liquidated like Romney would have preferred.

Liquidated isn't the same as being erased. Opportunistic people would have stepped in to purchase profitable or potentially profitable pieces of the company and other car manufacturers would have had to fill the void.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
How many companies do you know that have not screwed up at some point in their past.

You mean how many companies have never had to have Uncle Sam ride to their rescue? Quite a few. Companies that put themselves in a position to survive a downturn and be able to do well on the other side? Plenty of those too.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
There is going to be "mandates" that you will ned to pay.

No need for mandates. If I want insurance, I'll buy insurance. If I don't, I won't.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
Research the ill-timed tax hike the Japanese implemented last decade.

Increased taxes to pay for the New Deal also prolonged the Great Depression.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
I believe that Milton Friedman put it best when he said, "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 129, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6752 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
But again, you may disagree on parts of his proposal, but at least he's trying to put forth a solution

Okay, he put out a plan. But this isn't kindergarten; there's no such thing as an A for effort. If the plan is flawed (and it is), you can't just wave that away by saying "well, at least he has a plan". A bad plan is often worse than no plan at all.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 130, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 130):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
But again, you may disagree on parts of his proposal, but at least he's trying to put forth a solution

Okay, he put out a plan. But this isn't kindergarten; there's no such thing as an A for effort. If the plan is flawed (and it is), you can't just wave that away by saying "well, at least he has a plan". A bad plan is often worse than no plan at all.

You're right, this isn't kindergarten where the Democrats wouldn't even have received an A for effort as they haven't turned ANYTHING in. I'll ask again, where are the Democratic plans and solutions to address the budget other than raise taxes (which we know won't put a dent in the budget issues) and more spending (which we already tried)? How can two sides expect to come to a solution and compromise when the other side doesn't put anything forward, sits back, and just criticizes the other plan? What is Obama and the Democrat's plan for the budget?


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 131, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

Bingo. She cannot afford the $10 a month for birth control but I bet she has a cell phone, cable and internet. What a joke

It's a good thing you know her so well, isn't it?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 120):
You mean he rammed it down the collective throats of the American people, the majority of which were against it.

Against it because it didn't go far enough. Had it contained a public option, and had insurance companies been cut out of the process like they should have (still not sure how they were allowed to lobby on this; if that's not the fox guarding the henhouse, I don't know what is...), it would have been far more successful in the public eye.

But there's no way Americans, as any kind of majority or even plurality, approved of the status quo. Let's try to keep this accurate here...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 116):

I seriously cannot think of a better man to have been on the scene when President Obama came along at the nascent stages of the recent horrific Economic downturn. And those who expected a 3 or 4 years fix of a disaster 8 years in the making are like children upset over not getting enough toys for Christmas - greedy, selfish and egregiously inconsiderate.

I think this is about as truthful as anything we're likely to see here today. But I think we can add that had McCain won, they'd be falling all over themselves to let him off the hook. Double Standards & all...

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Had GM gone through BK reorganization and not nationalization, they would have been a leaner, healthier company.

Not even close. They'd have gone straight to Ch 7. They had no reasonable cost structure, no competitive product lineups outside of the Commercial/Industrial markets, seemed completely unaware that they had competitors from Korea, Japan & Europe, and weren't doing much to address safety concerns and fuel efficiency. They literally had nothing to offer the marketplace, and this is something that Judges look for in Ch 11 proceedings, hence why I think they would have been carved right up.

In a fair world, you're right, they should have been left to the fate they worked so hard to earn. But that's not where we live. A lot of very intelligent folks, not just our President, looked at the situation and saw that allowing that to happen was more than a little worse than what they did. I'll agree that it was an unpopular thing to do, but sometimes being a member of qualified leadership means making unpopular decisions for the greater good.

It's unlikely I'll ever consider a GM product, that's for sure. But our gov't stepped up and did the best possible, if not "right" thing.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 132, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6718 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 132):
Not even close. They'd have gone straight to Ch 7.

And been liquidated at which points assets that did have value would have been purchased and reorganized. How many millions of dollars do you think go into maintaining and selling parts for GM cars? Some of their models were competitive and could have been purchased by new entities.

The bankruptcy of a company like GM would have been catnip for the private equity firms the left loves to vilify. Instead, the government propped GM, and now GM is propping up Opel.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 132):
I'll agree that it was an unpopular thing to do, but sometimes being a member of qualified leadership means making unpopular decisions for the greater good.

If you and a bunch of other people want to pursue the greater good that's fine. Just don't do it with my money.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 133, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6715 times:
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Quoting mt99 (Reply 123):
the health care achievements by Obama are SO unpopular that Romeny has made a U-turn..

"GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney surprised some people on Sunday when he said he would keep two key provisions of the president's health care law. "

And those two provisions were ones that the majority of the country supported. It was the rest of that POS bill they didn't want.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
Since we are still paying out Veterans benefits from WW II the costs associated with that war continues to grow, and right now they are growing at 2012 prices.

Are you seriously going to try and equate a global conflict in which over 400,000 Americans lost their lives to the Iraq War, where the deaths - tragic and needless as they are - are at 1% of that total?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 134, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6706 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 131):
I'll ask again, where are the Democratic plans and solutions to address the budget other than raise taxes (which we know won't put a dent in the budget issues) and more spending (which we already tried)?

So you're saying that they have a plan. You may not like it, but if you're going to say that Ryan is trying on the basis that he has proposed something, you can't say that Obama isn't.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 134):
And those two provisions were ones that the majority of the country supported. It was the rest of that POS bill they didn't want.

The mandate was unpopular, sure, but that's a big part of how the bill was going to be paid for. People like it when they don't have to pay for things, of course, but that's hardly sound economic policy.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2016 posts, RR: 21
Reply 135, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Against it because it didn't go far enough.

Really? So despite the fact that the individual mandate is far and away the most unpopular part of the bill, the public hates it because it didn't go far enough? I mean I know some Leftists weren't happy because it didn't go far enough for their desired universal single-payer system, but the majority of the American people? Not way, at least as far as we can tell with polling.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 125):
Had GM gone through BK reorganization and not nationalization, they would have been a leaner, healthier company.

Not even close. They'd have gone straight to Ch 7.

And the world still would not have come to an end as there would have been a huge hole in the market to be filled by existing companies, which would have picked up a lot of it's plants and suppliers, or even some new entrants. The lives of the workers at Eastern Airlines didn't come to an end when they shut-down, the same would have happened with GM workers, they would have either been hired by Ford, Toyota, Honda...etc or some new market competitor.

Quoting Mir (Reply 134):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 131):
I'll ask again, where are the Democratic plans and solutions to address the budget other than raise taxes (which we know won't put a dent in the budget issues) and more spending (which we already tried)?

So you're saying that they have a plan. You may not like it, but if you're going to say that Ryan is trying on the basis that he has proposed something, you can't say that Obama isn't.

Well seeing as it's pretty common knowledge that raising taxes on the upper bracket won't even put a drop in the bucket towards solving the budget problem and that spending more obviously doesn't balance the budget, I wouldn't call it a plan to balance the budget. So again, for the 6th time, what are Obama's plans/proposals for addressing the budget crisis?


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 136, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6688 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 135):
The mandate was unpopular, sure, but that's a big part of how the bill was going to be paid for

Which means the bill should have been scrapped and Congress should have drafted something better. You go back to the drawing board when your initial plan is crap; you don't shove square pegs into round holes and say, "Ta-da!"   

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 135):
raising taxes on the upper bracket won't even put a drop in the bucket towards solving the budget problem

In fact, hitting the top 1% of earners will only bring in an extra $80 billion in revenue, according to official estimates.

That $80B doesn't fix the deficit in any meaningful way, however in the hands of those who EARNED it to begin with, that $80B can do a lot more for the economy as a whole. Again, look up the velocity of money.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 137, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6678 times: