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F1 2012: Italian GP  
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12677 posts, RR: 46
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3128 times:
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Surprised this thread wasn't already started, but here's the qualifying results:

1 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:24.211 1:24.394 1:24.010
2 3 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:24.672 1:24.255 1:24.133
3 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:24.882 1:24.505 1:24.247
4 11 Paul di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1:24.875 1:24.345 1:24.304
5 7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1:25.302 1:24.675 1:24.540
6 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:25.011 1:24.687 1:24.802
7 8 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:24.689 1:24.515 1:24.833
8 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:25.151 1:24.742 1:24.855
9 14 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1:25.317 1:24.683 1:25.109
10 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:24.175 1:24.242 1:25.678
11 2 Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:25.556 1:24.809
12 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:25.103 1:24.820
13 15 Sergio Perez Sauber-Ferrari 1:25.300 1:24.901
14 19 Bruno Senna Williams-Renault 1:25.135 1:25.042
15 16 Daniel Ricciardo STR-Ferrari 1:25.728 1:25.312
16 10 Jerome D'Ambrosio Lotus-Renault 1:25.834 1:25.408
17 17 Jean-Eric Vergne STR-Ferrari 1:25.649 1:25.441
18 20 Heikki Kovalainen Caterham-Renault 1:26.382
19 21 Vitaly Petrov Caterham-Renault 1:26.887
20 24 Timo Glock Marussia-Cosworth 1:27.039
21 25 Charles Pic Marussia-Cosworth 1:27.073
22 23 Narain Karthikeyan HRT-Cosworth 1:27.441
23 22 Pedro de la Rosa HRT-Cosworth 1:27.629
24 12 Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes No time

So a McLaren front-row lockout, confirming their improvement over the last few races. A shock to see Alonso down in 10th after he'd been fastest in Q1 and Q2. Apparently a problem with his rear anti-roll bar - will they be allowed to fix that before the race? With Vettel and Webber down the grid as well, there's a good chance for Monza's infamous first corner to pick up a big name or two.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2789 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Massa also showed really well and has had a great drive. Which of course brings up the question of whether there will be team orders in play to help Alonso and get him into a good position.

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3047 times:
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Out of the last 10 Italian GPs, only the 2002, 2006 and 2009 GPs weren't won by the pole sitter. I think Hamilton has this sewn up.

As I'm writing this I hear that the stewards are investigating the Vettel-Alonso incident. I can't believe that's even worth investigating. All Vettel did was drive on the racing line to defend his position, which is perfectly acceptable. What's more, as is mentioned in the commentary, it's the same as what happened last year, but in reverse. Nothing came out of that, so nothing should come out of this too.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2791 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Drive through for Vettel for forcing Alonso off the track, and Button is out, car lost all power.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3042 times:
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Pathetic decision, if you ask me  

That's basically saying that drivers aren't allowed to defend their positions anymore. Goodbye to any overtaking. What about Rosberg forcing Hamilton off the road in Bahrain? Nothing came out of that at all, so why should Vettel have been given that penalty?

The stewards have no consistency in their decision making. That is extremely disappointing.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13148 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Big win for Hamilton although talk during the race of him moving to another team next year.
Perez 2nd - a real surprise, for him, Sauber and from starting so far back. Alonzo 3rd - that keeps the Ferrari fans happy. Schumi in 5th.
Bad day for RedBull, especially Vettel. Button out too. Alonzo still keeps the lead in the championship as does Red Bull for the manufactures lead.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4032 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3023 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 4):

There was a clarification just before the break which covered defending positions and the width of the track. This decision is fully inline with that clarification.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3020 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 6):
There was a clarification just before the break which covered defending positions and the width of the track. This decision is fully inline with that clarification.

To hell with it!

It is unfair to expect drivers not to keep their racing line just because someone else is behind them wanting to take that position. It is against the spirit of racing.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10910 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

A fa-bu-lous race for Sergio Perez!

This boy has a future!!

           

This is great for Sauber - their car is really up theer!

Congrats to Hammy for the win!!

  

Congrats to our genius 7 Times F1 World Champion Schumi for his 6th place.
Dear Schumi... please stay at least one more year! I don't want to see you go!!!

  

Kamui has done as good as he could. A 9th place isn't bad... really... You'll catch up in Singapore!

  

Fernando was the hero of the day. The tifosi all went ape under the podium as if he had won the race!
Forza Rosse! Forza Ferrari!!!!
Congratulations Fernando!

  

Bravo Hammy... Goodbye Europe... and on to Singapore!

  

[Edited 2012-09-09 07:07:19]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2991 times:
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Great result there for LH and SP, FA was fairly unspectacular on his way to 3rd(perhaps even lucky)

*** Controversy Alert ***

I wonder how long Red Bull will stay in F1, I have long felt they are marketing driven dilettantes.

It is one thing to be seen as the underdog, then revel in being a step above the field, pretty easy to make a case for spending the big bucks.
An operation that is more "brand" marketing than motor racing team, how long before the lack of results start to affect the funding decisions.
Consider Red Bull Air race, a few years of amazing events, a couple of near misses led to a technical stand down and restructure which as I sad at the time was just marketing spin for... we're not doing this anymore.
Who is willing to open a sweep re how long they stay in F1??



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2988 times:
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Quoting stealthz (Reply 9):
Who is willing to open a sweep re how long they stay in F1??

2014.

Vettel's contract is up at the end of that season, and Webber's deal ends in 2013. They'll sign someone (Ricciardo perhaps?) for one year in 2014 and then close the doors for good.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2982 times:
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Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
They'll sign someone (Ricciardo perhaps?) for one year in 2014 and then close the doors for good.

Yep CXB, pretty much on the same page as me!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12677 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2964 times:
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Quoting CXB77L (Reply 4):
Pathetic decision, if you ask me

Wait, you expected a different result after a Ferrari was run wide? At Monza? That was a nailed-on penalty for Vettel.

I have to say I thought it was a bit harsh as it didn't look as though Vettel's line was any different to normal. In all honesty, Alonso put himself in a place where he needed Vettel to cooperate. That said, I wasn't surprised to see that Vettel was punished.

All in all, a very poor race for Red Bull.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8459 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 4):
That's basically saying that drivers aren't allowed to defend their positions anymore. Goodbye to any overtaking. What about Rosberg forcing Hamilton off the road in Bahrain? Nothing came out of that at all, so why should Vettel have been given that penalty?

That was the incident that prompted the rule clarification.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
It is against the spirit of racing.

You don't believe in that do you? It's just like the spirit of the rules. Claptrap for people who have been outdone and can't accept it.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 9):
I wonder how long Red Bull will stay in F1, I have long felt they are marketing driven dilettantes.

As long as the merchandise and cans of drink keep coming off the shelves they'll stay in F1. They seem to have signed up to the next concorde agreement indicating a longer future.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

With the McLaren on the rise, the Red Bulls losing competitiveness and Ferrari saying the next race courses are to their liking it looks like Hamilton is the only one left who could still catch Alonso.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 4):
That's basically saying that drivers aren't allowed to defend their positions anymore. Goodbye to any overtaking.

Your post doesnt make sense. Hello to overtaking would be the logical conclusion of your first sentence. Goodbye to overtaking only if Vettel wouldnt have been punished.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
I have to say I thought it was a bit harsh as it didn't look as though Vettel's line was any different to normal. In all honesty, Alonso put himself in a place where he needed Vettel to cooperate. That said, I wasn't surprised to see that Vettel was punished.

Vettel was punished according the rules defined earlier this season. That has nothing to do with Monza or Ferrari. If the opponent has his front wing aside the rear wheel of the one (still) in front, the car being overtaken has to make sure there´s enough room for the faster car.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
It is unfair to expect drivers not to keep their racing line just because someone else is behind them wanting to take that position. It is against the spirit of racing.

The opposite, as its good for overtaking, so good for the spirit of racing. The faster one should be able to overtake without the opponent in front of him putting his life at risk. It would be very bad if a slower car in front, and Vettel was clearly slower than Alonso, should be allowed to defend his position at all cost to "defend his racing line".


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4967 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting na (Reply 14):
With the McLaren on the rise, the Red Bulls losing competitiveness and Ferrari saying the next race courses are to their liking it looks like Hamilton is the only one left who could still catch Alonso.

yes and no ... this season is showing that nothing can be taken for granted. Alonso has a decent advantage, but one mistake by him, or the team, or another Spa-like accident and the advantage is suddenly gone. And the RBR are not so fantastic any more, but they are not to be disregarde just yet. And what about Kimi?
It' sstill a very open championship IMO!



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12677 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2869 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 14):
Vettel was punished according the rules defined earlier this season.

Alonso was attempting to pass Vettel around the outside of a right-hand bend where the natural racing line is to move to the outside on the left. Alonso pushed himself into a closing gap - his speed differential was sufficiently high that he could easily have passed Vettel on the right. While I understand the rule, it simply doesn't make sense in that situation - I seriously doubt any driver can tell if the car behind has its front wheels level with your rear wheels (especially when negotiating a bend at 100+mph).

The stewards punished Vettel. I thought it was harsh given it was Alonso's decision to try and attack a closing gap (always a bad decision).

Quoting na (Reply 14):
That has nothing to do with Monza or Ferrari.

Of course not.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
The stewards punished Vettel. I thought it was harsh given it was Alonso's decision to try and attack a closing gap (always a bad decision).

1. Alonso was clearly faster. He would have passed Vettel sooner or later anyway as the German held him up for quite some time already. He had to take a chance.
2. Vettel pushed him aside when he noticed the Spaniard would pass him on the outside. Alonso was already partly beside him when Vettel moved over too much. Forbidden by the rules, that is logically punished. I dont see latitude for the stewards.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12677 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2845 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 17):
Alonso was clearly faster. He would have passed Vettel sooner or later anyway

Absolutely no dispute there, but there are clearly better places to try a pass at Monza.

Quoting na (Reply 17):
Vettel pushed him aside when he noticed the Spaniard would pass him on the outside.

Well, this is where we differ in our views - I didn't see Vettel do anything other than follow the normal racing line to the outside of the track. In fact, other than the speed of the corner, this was nearly identical to Vettel's "off track" pass of Button for which he was rightly punished - Vettel went for the same closing gap on the outside when the natural racing line is to move over to the left. This led to him having to leave the track to complete the pass - the difference being he had an overun to do it, not grass and gravel like Alonso.

Quoting na (Reply 17):
Alonso was already partly beside him when Vettel moved over too much

If they'd been racing along the main straight, I would agree, but taking a corner at 100+mph and following the normal racing line is not "moving over too much" IMHO. Alonso REALLY shouldn't have gone for that move - to pass Vettel on his right as they exited the corner would have been far simpler and massively less risky (and Alonso clearly had the speed differential to make it stick).

You know, Alonso was very lucky not to damage his car and I think it would have been his own fault. His action of trying to pass around the outside of a high-speed corner from as far back as he did becomes less and less sensible the more I think about it. Alonso was driving into a gap that was always getting smaller - they couldn't possibly get round that corner at that speed side-by-side, so unless Vettel is expected to simply wave Alonso through and say "No, after you old chap!", I think the penalty was harsh.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 18):
Absolutely no dispute there, but there are clearly better places to try a pass at Monza.

I agree with that, it wasnt the best move Alonso could make. Still it doesnt give Vettel the right to push him off track. It wasnt that Vettel was too surprised to react.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2833 times:
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Quoting Bill142 (Reply 13):
That was the incident that prompted the rule clarification.

Fine. Another incident then. As scbriml said above me, it's similar to the Button-Vettel incident in that one driver was trying to pass on the outside while the other was holding his line. So which is it? Are drivers entitled to hold on to their racing line around a corner where they had their noses in front, or do they have to wave their opponent by?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 13):
You don't believe in that do you? It's just like the spirit of the rules. Claptrap for people who have been outdone and can't accept it.

If drivers aren't allowed to defend their position and their line, then what's the point in racing? You may as well just move over and let other cars drive past.

Quoting na (Reply 14):
The opposite, as its good for overtaking, so good for the spirit of racing. The faster one should be able to overtake without the opponent in front of him putting his life at risk. It would be very bad if a slower car in front, and Vettel was clearly slower than Alonso, should be allowed to defend his position at all cost to "defend his racing line".

What a load of rubbish! Drivers are not simply to wave their opponents through when a faster car is behind. That's not racing, that's just normal driving in traffic. Racing requires skill, both of the driver in front to defend their position and of the driver behind to find a way past. As for risking one's life ... motorsport is dangerous, everyone knows that!

A driver is entitled to defend his position by maintaining his line. That's precisely what Vettel did. Vettel didn't deliberately steer off line to push Alonso off the track. The only crime he's guilty of is racing to the best of his ability, and to be punished for that is tantamount to injustice.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
While I understand the rule

I don't, at all. Personally, I believe drivers should be allowed to use every means of defending their position short of "causing an avoidable collision", but I digress ...

Quoting na (Reply 17):
Alonso was clearly faster. He would have passed Vettel sooner or later anyway as the German held him up for quite some time already. He had to take a chance.

Irrelevant. It's one thing to be faster, it's quite another to get past. Whether or not Vettel had held up Alonso is also entirely irrelevant as they are fighting for position. If this was qualifying, or if Vettel was being lapped, I would agree. But he wasn't.

Quoting na (Reply 17):
Alonso was already partly beside him when Vettel moved over too much.

What's relevant in deciding who has the right to the racing line is which driver is in front. In that case, it was Vettel. It is immaterial that Alonso had part of his car beside Vettel. That corner was Vettel's, Alonso should have yielded and tried again somewhere else.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 18):
You know, Alonso was very lucky not to damage his car and I think it would have been his own fault. His action of trying to pass around the outside of a high-speed corner from as far back as he did becomes less and less sensible the more I think about it. Alonso was driving into a gap that was always getting smaller - they couldn't possibly get round that corner at that speed side-by-side, so unless Vettel is expected to simply wave Alonso through and say "No, after you old chap!", I think the penalty was harsh.

  

I agree.

This is precisely the opposite of what Alonso did to Vettel at the same venue last year. Was Alonso punished? Of course he wasn't, nor should he have been. But if Alonso wasn't punished, neither should Vettel be.

All I want is some consistency in the decisions of the stewards. Clearly, that has been lacking. It's time the FIA (Ferrari International Assistance) looked into inconsistent rule and penalty application and did something to fix it, because quite frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of it. I think Vettel has done well to bite his tongue over this incident, because if it were me, I'd be having some words to the stewards which are not suitable for a family site.

[Edited 2012-09-11 08:45:37]


Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What's relevant in deciding who has the right to the racing line is which driver is in front.

You simply dont get it. The rule is that when a driver has his front at the height of the rear wheel of the slower car in front, that one has to leave room for the one aside. Simple as that. If Vettel would have been faster, he would have stayed ahead. He opted for a foul, punishment the logical consequence.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What a load of rubbish! Drivers are not simply to wave their opponents through when a faster car is behind. That's not racing, that's just normal driving in traffic. Racing requires skill, both of the driver in front to defend their position and of the driver behind to find a way past.

I leave your rubbish rubbish comment aside, but I agree that of cause skill is required, but that involves the skill to be fair to opponents, and the skill to follow the rules. I nowhere said that the faster car should be waved through. I dont know where you seem to have read that. Your Ferrari hatred makes you blind, again.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2816 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 21):
Your Ferrari hatred makes you blind, again.

  

If you're arguing that Vettel should be penalised for pushing Alonso off the track, then so, too, should Button have been penalised for pushing Vettel off the track at Hockenheim. So too, should Alonso have been penalised at Monza last year for pushing Vettel off the track.

Where is the consistency???  

[Edited 2012-09-11 10:37:39]


Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12677 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2804 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 19):
Still it doesnt give Vettel the right to push him off track.

Do you believe Vettel took anything other than the racing line?

Quoting na (Reply 21):
The rule is that when a driver has his front at the height of the rear wheel of the slower car in front, that one has to leave room for the one aside.

There are two issues with this statement. The rule clarification was clearly worded to account for a situation where two cars are approaching a braking zone BEFORE a corner. From the BBC's website, here's the exact wording of the rule:

Quote:
"Any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his.

"Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.

"For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."

The incident at Monza on Sunday happened at the Curva Grande, which the drivers take flat out. So there is no braking zone where the incident happened.

I'd also like to know how, while negotiating a bend at over 150mph, a driver is supposed to know the car behind has his front wing along side?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 8):
Dear Schumi... please stay at least one more year!

Another year!? To deliver what? More crap results like he has done so far since his return to the sport!? Only reason why Brawn keep him is because he attract sponsors. And even they must have seen by now that has-been-schumi is nothing anymore. He can better leave and let some hungry young driver get that drive.



When in doubt, flat out!
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