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We All Belong To Government?  
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5603 posts, RR: 15
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

This is an interesting choice of words:

"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLa9Te8Blw

Not, we all share a government. Or, the government belongs to all of us. Or, the government is for all the people. The DNC says "government is the only thing we all belong to".

What I really find interesting is the following clip where Freedom Works talked to a few folks at the DNC. Now, I realize that not every response is reported, but I find some of the comments illuminating.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/lheal/we-all-belong-to-the-government

I think it's just part of that mask slipping off, much like the DNC vote on Jerusalem and the inclusion of God in the platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG6qgSfaARE


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Really?
Hmmm....Government of the people, by the people , for the people. Ring any bells?
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8927 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

Such thinking is quite feudal. In the days of serfs and nobility, (and even in some modern countries), you are a subject - the government or monarch owns you. We are citizens. We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in

Where is your application to chutch?
And your stance on immigration and citizenship is?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We are citizens. We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.

Apparently expansive thinking is not required in ultra Conservative circles. We belong to the government in that we are it's resources, it's protectors, it's defendors, it's constituents. We belong based on Citizenship to the Unitied states, where Goverment is for the people, but by the people.
But maybe you don't belong to the GOP? You are a citizen of it?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

That's exactly what I got from the statement. I guess you have to be particularly paranoid to read it as a claim to property... I wonder where that paranoia might come from.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
I think it's just part of that mask slipping off

Oh, found it!

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
much like the DNC vote on Jerusalem

I am astonished to read that the capital of Israel is an issue for the platform of an American party.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
the inclusion of God in the platform

Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

Just as stupid (and along the same lines) as "Corporations are People" ...

You get pick who "owns" you: Government or Corporations?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5423 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

That's how I read it too, cas. "Belong" doesn't necessarily imply ownership. I belong to a running club. Last I checked they didn't imply any ownership rights over my being. There are, after all, multiple definitions of the word "belong" and it seems that Freedom Works is trying to rile up their membership by heavily implying one definition was meant when the other seems to be what was meant.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

There's that whole notion of the social contract at play, Dreadnought. Beyond that, if you decided you no longer wanted to be a member of the United States you're free to give up your citizenship and choose another nation to reside in.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

Again, "to belong" can mean "to be part of" as much as it can mean "to be property of". You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property...   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.

...aaand here we go again, accusatory generalisations over something that nobody actually said



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8927 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
Again, "to belong" can mean "to be part of" as much as it can mean "to be property of".

But I am not. I do not belong to my Electric Utility, nor am I a part of it. It exists. My tax dollars and monthly bills help support it. It exists to provide a service. But we are not part of each other.

Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.

But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote? Why not just let some faceless bureaucrat make all decisions? I'm not saying I believe this is the right path, but if you truly believe people aren't part of the government, then why do they have the power to vote and control government behavior?


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
My tax dollars and monthly bills help support it. It exists to provide a service

Your tax dollars......Through Government......(of which you belong) pays the Utility service to offer services you could not support on your own. you don't want to own the Utility, so you belong to Government which provides it for you and others collectively.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But we are not part of each other.

Nobody said that you're a part of every group or organisation with whom you do business. You seem to be arguing that you don't belong to any such entity that you did not deliberately join - so I refer you back to my earlier statement:

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property.

Neither are you, or did anyone say that you are, the property of "the government" - local, state or federal. But since you live in a democratic country and are its citizen, you are part of a people that, ultimately, governs itself. Any and all power that is given to your elected representatives and officials is given to and also taken from them by the people. So you do indeed belong to the group that governs your country - you belong to your own government.

It'd be interesting to discuss the state of someone who has lost his or her right to vote... I'd have to say that they have been expelled from the group/government.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8927 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote?

My electric utility is Municipal owned, and as a resident, I can show up to vote every couple of months when they have their meetings. I'm constantly getting their mailers and proxy info (it's really annoying, actually, the frequency).

So where is the difference? The Fed of course can mint their own money and is much bigger in scale, but it's essentially my electrical utility writ large.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
So where is the difference?

None, you belong to your Municipality which has an Electric Writ, ...
You still belong to the government.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
because I don't remember filling one in.

Your parents filled it out - it is called a birth certificate.

Did you every apply to have a driver's license, or to vote?

Those are also documents where you apply to be part of the government of this nation.

Mine was even simplier, my oath as I put on the uniform to defend this nation.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20249 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

If you "belong to" a club, it doesn't mean that you are the property of the club. You are a member.

You are making a mountain out of a known idiom.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

It happened when you were born without your input, I suppose. If you do not wish to belong to the government, you need only renounce your citizenship. Of course, that has its own consequences...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.

The government exists to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Government of the people, by the people , for the people. Ring any bells

Of the people: a government drawn from the people.
By the people: elected by the people.
For the people: in service to the people.
Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.

I could give a rat's patut if the DNC (or the GOP, for that matter) omits God or Jerusalem from their platform. What I saw and heard was the DNC leadership tell their delegates to go shove it. We don't care how you vote, this is the way its going to be.
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 6):
"Belong" doesn't necessarily imply ownership.

I agree, that in this case, it probably (I hope) is what they mean, but I find the choice of words interesting and revealing. They could have said that we all share a government. Same thing. They could have said that we all form a government. I like that and much more accurate. But the DNC chose the word "belong" and the baggage that word brings with it. And quite simply, if the head folks at the DNC didn't notice the baggage, what does that say about their mindset?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13705 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
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ALL YOUR GOVT ARE BELONG TO US


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
ALL YOUR GOVT ARE BELONG TO US

I was going to toss that out there, but restrained myself.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5706 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
I am astonished to read that the capital of Israel is an issue for the platform of an American party.

I'm astonished that they actually have to figure it out.

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.

It's important to the people who are electing their representatives. You may not care if God is included or even exists, but there are a fair number of Americans who do, and that's why it matters. Again, the fact that they have to stumble over themselves to even decide whether to include God speaks volumes to people to whom God speaks volumes.

It isn't the biggest deal in the world, it just shows where the DNC is headed.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
The government exists to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

Proof that those 70's Saturday morning public service messages really resonated.   (or am I the only one who sang those words in my head?)

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
What I saw and heard was the DNC leadership tell their delegates to go shove it. We don't care how you vote, this is the way its going to be.

If that's your problem with it, I agree completely. Funny definition of "democratic process"...



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9677 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property...

With a few exceptions, one belongs either to the male or the female population.
Belonging to the government means you are part of it. That is actually a very exclusive club
People belong to a church, or, as was said before to a club or many clubs.,
People belong to ethnic groups

The government does not own the people, nor do the people own the government

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote?

"We, the people" - have the right to form oalitions and vote for bodies like the Congress, the Senate, the President

The same basic law that gives us the right to vote gives us the right to be free as an individual. We "belong to..." by choice, not by ownership.

Ownership or treating people as subjects is feudal, regardless what the political color is.

.

[Edited 2012-09-11 00:37:03]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Belonging to the government means you are part of it. That is actually a very exclusive club

In the US thought, you can belong to the government by being a representative, either elected, or volunteering, or serving.

It may be an exclusive club, but at any point a US citizen can take part. We do belong to the Government.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9677 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
We do belong to the Government.

well, but only once you take up a position. it is a matter of how you define "Government"..

That can be Federal State or City.

A nminister and a state sevcretary is certainly part of the government.

A public servant is government staff, but not part of the government.

..



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8927 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
It may be an exclusive club, but at any point a US citizen can take part. We do belong to the Government.

Do you belong to your employer? Do you belong to your employee?

There seems to be a substantial lack of understanding of the difference between nation and government. You can belong to a nation. But a government is nothing more than an service company - a utility. The government belongs to us, not the other way around.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
25 casinterest : Wrong. Government is not just a utility. It is everything in that Constitution you so emptily cling to apparently. We belong to the Government just a
26 garnetpalmetto : Again, however, you're deliberately choosing the use of "belong" with the definition that implies ownership privileges rather than the definition tha
27 FlyPNS1 : I'd argue they are one in the same. There's really no such thing as a nation without a government. How would you even know who is part of the nation,
28 Dreadnought : No it is not the same. It's like the difference between Law and Justice. Justice is a concept - the idea that we should treat people fairly. Law is m
29 FlyPNS1 : In some vague philosophical world, you might be right. But in the practical real world, the nation = the government. You may not like that, but that
30 flipdewaf : It says that they don't really care about people who purposefully misconstrue their words and don't spend time trying to placate those who have an ag
31 PanHAM : "belong" -- the definition is "be the property of" no person is the property of anyone. Period. the nation and the government is certainly not the sa
32 garnetpalmetto : That's but *one* definition. Per the OED: belong, v. Pronunciation: /bɪˈlɒŋ/ Forms: ME bilong, ME bylong, ME– belong; north. and Sc. belang. Et
33 MD11Engineer : Back in university I had an anarchist classmate who complained about having to obey laws and traffic rules because he had not been personally asked ab
34 tugger : Yep. We do! You mean your lost your voter registration? Very sad. Guess you can't vote then. And you are the government, you elect it, you create it,
35 Ken777 : Legally a trial lawyer can make a good case if you screw up and cause someone harm. You belong to an employee to the extent of your legal obligations
36 PlanesNTrains : Yes, of course. Heaven forbid we should take a position. -Dave
37 DeltaMD90 : I don't know, I think it's just semantics. I guess you can infer many things from the statement, but it's a lot easier to just disagree with a candida
38 Post contains links and images Pyrex : This is what I call a Freudian Slip. Of course, they could have made the point they were supposedly trying to make and avoided this whole thing by say
39 PlanesNTrains : Well, at least they were all over it. No excuses even in a race that she likely might have won. Impressive. -Dave
40 Dreadnought : Interesting analogy - I never thought of it that way. Academia as the Clergy. They haven't changed much - they are the Merchant class, those non-nobi
41 MD11Engineer : Good that you ask. After he finished his masteral in physics he went into the capitalist corporate world. Last time I saw him (years ago) he had cut
42 Post contains images garnetpalmetto : And he's not going to get shot for it. Also note that I'm referring to completely renouncing his citizenship, not living as an ex pat.
43 Post contains images tugger : "Voter fraud" of any level of significance that ID at the polls would prevent doesn't exist. How many times do I have to say that and how many times
44 fr8mech : A state issued drivers' license would have taken care of it. You can't be a legal resident of one state and hold a license in another. You would have
45 tugger : Again it does depend and I really don't want to get into parsing everything (we could if you wish though). I understand what you are saying, but I co
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