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US Risks Loosing Its AAA Credit Rating  
User currently offlinemaxthrusta330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

The Moody's Credit Rating Agency has warned that the US could lose its top credit rating status if policy makers fail to agree on measures to reduce the country’s debt to gross domestic product ratio next year:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/17dcd...33-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2665T5Hi5

What is fascinating is that The US dollar fell broadly after the warning - except in Iran where it bizarrely has soared to an all time high.

If ever there was a case of the blind leading the blind this is it. At the exact same time that the future of the US Dollar is looking shaky and it set to loose significant value, the Iranian public rush to pay record high prices for it. What utter ignorance and madness.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...s-record-low-amid-sanctions-monger

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
The Moody's Credit Rating Agency has warned that the US could lose its top credit rating status

So another credit rating agency (aka, scam outfit) will degrade the US's standing from "absolutely perfect" to "perfect".

Yawn.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
The Moody's Credit Rating Agency has warned that the US could lose its top credit rating status if policy makers fail to agree on measures to reduce the country’s debt to gross domestic product ratio next year:

It is pressure for congress to come to a solution to the fiscal cliff.

This is an election year.
Look for inaction, finger pointing, political posturing with zero results and a mountain high pile of political Bovine Manure.

Look for solutions to be posted from expert economists who have an economic degree from a 30 second sound bite on their favorite news channel with only their candidate shown in a favorite light and no other logic.

So the answer is nothing is going to happen until after the election.

For what ever it is worth Gold did go up today but more importantly Gold mining stock went way up indicating Wall St sees a long term problem but again that is just a one day rise at this point.

Okie


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Maybe our first step "to reduce the country’s debt to gross domestic product ratio next year" should be to put a windfalls profits tax on credit rating agencies.

Odd thing about next year - if Romney wins he will be cutting taxes (unless there is a Democratic filibuster to avoid it) and there will not be any noticeable change in the ratio for 2013. Obama has a better chance of delivering an improvement in 2013.


User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2721 times:
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Yet Germany, France, and the United Kingdom all have much higher debt to GDP than us and are AAA.

Japans massive debt and A+ credit rating hasn't caused their cost of borrowing to go up at all, in fact it has dropped, just like ours did after being downgraded to AA.

The debt and deficit should not be the priority of the government at this time. The economy should be. Large spending cuts or tax increases to combat the deficit would not be wise due to their negative impact on growth and jobs.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

S&P did this in 2011 and the net result was that demand for US Treasuries actually increased.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 4):
Yet Germany, France, and the United Kingdom all have much higher debt to GDP than us and are AAA.

Not really. The US's debt-to-GDP stands at over 100% and is quite a bit higher than the other countries you listed with about 80%.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 4):
Yet Germany, France, and the United Kingdom all have much higher debt to GDP than us and are AAA.

From where do you get your data?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
US Risks Loosing Its AAA Credit Rating

This is a kind of big deal. It isn't the end of America, but what it is saying is that the wealthiest country on the planet is getting close to maxing out the credit card. It's a shot across the bow stating that America needs to make sure that they are willing and able to pay their bills.

Quoting us330 (Reply 5):
S&P did this in 2011 and the net result was that demand for US Treasuries actually increased.

Plenty of people have invested in junk bonds.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2677 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
Not really. The US's debt-to-GDP stands at over 100% and is quite a bit higher than the other countries you listed with about 80%.
Quoting cmf (Reply 7):
From where do you get your data?
http://usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

Moody's has warned France too a few months ago (but they waited after the elections, maybe because in France we usually get lawmakers that are in the same camp as the president). We'll see who gets degraded first, and for what reason. Us, it will probably be because implementing measures to curb the deficit will make us enter into a recession. The US, probably because no significant forays will be made in curbing the deficit.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 9):
http://usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

That data does not match anything else I have seen, e.g. they put US public debt at 73% put a simple google search puts it at over 100%.

I can't take that source seriously.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
The Moody's Credit Rating Agency has warned that the US could lose its top credit rating status if policy makers fail to agree on measures to reduce the country’s debt to gross domestic product ratio next year:

In other news, Moody's gives millions to several GOP super-PACS. Just more political high-jinks from the robber-barons on Wall Street....



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2634 times:
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Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
That data does not match anything else I have seen, e.g. they put US public debt at 73% put a simple google search puts it at over 100%.

I can't take that source seriously.

There is more than one figure provided. The other one is over 100% and is the one that you are likely finding on google. There are different ways of calculating it, but that site uses the same methodology for all of the countries listed so it's a fair apples-to-apples comparison.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19408 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

This is a kind of big deal. It isn't the end of America, but what it is saying is that the wealthiest country on the planet is getting close to maxing out the credit card. It's a shot across the bow stating that America needs to make sure that they are willing and able to pay their bills.

How is the US going to pay its bills by increasing defense spending and reducing taxes more than any spending cut?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
How is the US going to pay its bills by increasing defense spending and reducing taxes more than any spending cut?

End crap social programs and stop bailing out struggling private corporations. Lower regulatory barriers to help make America competitive to grow the tax base rather than just shaking the same tree harder.

Plus, I'd be in favor of moving to FairTax or something similar. We've raised taxes during a recession before. It didn't go well.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 13):
The other one is over 100% and is the one that you are likely finding on google.

  

The two figures they provide are public dept to GDP and external debt to GDP.

The link I provided is to public debt numbers. The numbers at the site you provided are some 30% too low.

If you look around a bit you will find that the numbers aline more around with what IMF publish

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 13):
There are different ways of calculating it

Is there?


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 16):
are some 30% too low

You are quite incorrect.

The US government debt held by the public is found here:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

The rest of the world does not include intergovernmental debt in its national debt figure, and therefore to compare apples to apples you can only compare America's debt held by the public .

The US government has in years passed collected taxes marked on paycheck stubs as 'social security tax' which it has instead used for general government spending. It accounts for this by calling it 'intergovernmental debt,'. This debt is owed to no one and in fact does not exist using the standards of the rest of the world.

The US is about 11 trillion in debt., which is about 67% of GDP and substantially lower than most of its industrial allies. See debt figure here, the CIA gets it right, America-haters and others deliberately use a false figure for political reasons.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

It is amazing how many people have no clue as to the facts of their own government, but blindly following a lazy media produces this.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-11 18:29:33]

[Edited 2012-09-11 18:36:44]

User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2593 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting cmf (Reply 16):

Yes, there are different ways of calculating it. All of these numbers are just estimates after all. And all of this is besides the point, even on the site you linked to, Japan is over twice our debt-to-GDP and actually has lower borrowing costs than the US.

The US dollar is still the safe haven currency, as is evident in how when S&P downgraded the US, our interest rates actually dropped further. Debt-to-GDP doesn't tell the whole story. I believe we could double our debt and still be able to borrow at low interest rates, just like Japan. Not that it's a desirable position to be in or something that we should try. But on the scale of immediate problems this country faces, our debt shouldn't be the first priority, like many on the right seemingly think. You can't compare us to Greece. It's totally different.

EDIT: thank you pu for explaining the differences.

[Edited 2012-09-11 18:33:23]

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
End crap social programs and stop bailing out struggling private corporations. Lower regulatory barriers to help make America competitive to grow the tax base rather than just shaking the same tree harder.

Is closing loopholes "shaking the same tree harder?"



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 19):
Is closing loopholes "shaking the same tree harder?"

Effectively, yes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2551 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 19):
Is closing loopholes "shaking the same tree harder?"

Effectively, yes.

Damn - What are we going to do?!! That a main part Romeny's and Ryan plan! The HORROR!!

"Ryan told Fox News that he and Romney want "to clear up the tax loopholes, get rid of special interest loopholes to lower tax rates for everybody."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...paigns-taxes-idUSBRE87K0OO20120821

Its more clear here

""The question is not necessarily what loopholes go, but who gets them," Ryan replied. "High income earners use most of the loopholes. That means they can shelter their income from taxation. But if you take those loopholes, those tax shelters, away from high income earners, more of their income is subject to taxation and that allows us to lower our tax rates on everybody."

http://leanforward.msnbc.com/_news/2...-loopholes-romney-would-close?lite

[Edited 2012-09-11 20:26:02]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
This is a kind of big deal. It isn't the end of America, but what it is saying is that the wealthiest country on the planet is getting close to maxing out the credit card.

Um, no.

To put it into terms a layman can understand, it takes the US's credit rating from a perfect 850 down to an "awful" 830.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2534 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
This is a kind of big deal. It isn't the end of America

Glad you are refraining from the hyperbole....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
but what it is saying is that the wealthiest country on the planet is getting close to maxing out the credit card.

According to a private, for profit, ratings agency. These are the same rating agencies that gave great ratings to some of the CDOs.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
In other news, Moody's gives millions to several GOP super-PACS. Just more political high-jinks from the robber-barons on Wall Street....

That is an important point to keep in mind--these rating agencies aren't the independent, not-for profit, public-interest orient commissars. So evaluate their decisions with that mind and with a grain of salt.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Plenty of people have invested in junk bonds.

But people usually don't invest in junk bonds when they are looking for a low risk investment--and get a higher coupon payment to compensate for the greater risk. Treasuries are considered low-risk investments and their lower YTM reflects this. So, the downgrade did create uncertainty by investors. A typical investor response during a time of market uncertainty is to invest in low-risk investments, which meant that money moved toward the treasuries.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
To put it into terms a layman can understand, it takes the US's credit rating from a perfect 850 down to an "awful" 830.

That seems like nothing, but we are the wealthiest country on the face of the earth. There is no reason a billionaire shouldn't have perfect credit, especially if they get to print money.

Quoting us330 (Reply 23):
A typical investor response during a time of market uncertainty is to invest in low-risk investments, which meant that money moved toward the treasuries

True. My overall point is to say that increased demand for treasury securities does not mean everything is great.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
That seems like nothing, but we are the wealthiest country on the face of the earth. There is no reason a billionaire shouldn't have perfect credit, especially if they get to print money.

I'm not quite sure what to say about that... other than it's a completely wrong understanding of basic economics.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
There is no reason a billionaire shouldn't have perfect credit
http://www.myfico.com/crediteducatio...les/warren-buffett-fico-score.aspx

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):

I know, its embarrassing to watch and I normally don't respond to the teenagers here. Remember what it was like - certain you knew everything and repeating verbatim what dad and your teachers said that day....perhaps an a.net forum with a minimum age requirement...

Pu


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
I'm not quite sure what to say about that... other than it's a completely wrong understanding of basic economics.

There is only one way to interpret a downgrade in credit rating or a threat of a downgrade: it is doubt, pure and simple. It means that there is uncertainty in the ability or willingness of the US to service its debt.

Do you think that the Dow Jones losing 1,300 points in a week was a coincidence? That people reported early August of 2011 as the worst time in the market since 2008 because they got bored and wanted to drop a hyperbole bomb on everyone?

For nearly the last sixty years if there was one thing on this entire planet that you could count on it was the US government. It's the most solid entity on earth, until it was a little less solid and thew everyone for a loop.

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
Remember what it was like - certain you knew everything and repeating verbatim what dad and your teachers said that day

Or not. It's funny what a little work and intelligence can get you.

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
perhaps an a.net forum with a minimum age requirement...

You want respect for the feat of not dying?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2478 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Do you think that the Dow Jones losing 1,300 points in a week was a coincidence?



And how long did that last? FYI DOW is back at 2007 levels..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19408 posts, RR: 58
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
End crap social programs

OK, but the math still doesn't add up. Those crap social programs are a pittance compared to the defense budget.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 28):
And how long did that last?

Didn't make back the drop until December.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
OK, but the math still doesn't add up. Those crap social programs are a pittance compared to the defense budget.

Actually the social programs add up to quite a bit. Going with a FairTax plan or something like it could solve a lot of problems.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 14
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
Actually the social programs add up to quite a bit

Care to be more specific? Here are the actual numbers: Defense accounts for 20% of the budget, safety net programs (Excluding social security and medicaid) account for 13% of the budget.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 31):
safety net programs (Excluding social security and medicaid) account for 13% of the budget.

There's also Social Security which should be phased out and accounts for 20% as well. Education will have to grow to more than 2% but there's a lot of that 33% that could be subject to reduction. Defense cuts will happen as Iraq and Afghanistan wind down, which accounts for 22% of the defense costs. You'll probably not get all of that since some equipment will have to be refurbished or replaced, but still it's not insignificant.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
It's funny what a little work and intelligence can get you.

The result that little work and intelligence has got you is indeed funny.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinecupraibiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Sorry I cant get past the title "US Risks Loosing":
It's losing losing losing It's not loosing

Phew that feels better



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 17):
It is amazing how many people have no clue as to the facts of their own government, but blindly following a lazy media produces this.

How do you explain IMF's data?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7063 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
Odd thing about next year - if Romney wins he will be cutting taxes (unless there is a Democratic filibuster to avoid it) and there will not be any noticeable change in the ratio for 2013. Obama has a better chance of delivering an improvement in 2013.

The US has been doing deficit spending for decades, the debt ceiling has been on a steady climb, I do not recall any declines, so which president exactly is going to change the situation?
Personally, I believe the people via their representatives in the Congress - House and Senate - will be the ones to ultimately bring real change, administrations are too small and easily made beholding to some special interest group.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
End crap social programs and stop bailing out struggling private corporations.

Right - and be sure to pass that open carry law in all states while you're at it. Those not in poverty will need those guns for protection and those in poverty can simply steal the guns they need.

BTW, you didn't mention how you would have replaced those jobs that would have been lost when GM & CHrysler was liquidated. Be sure to add in the jobs of component suppliers and those who made their livings off of those workers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Lower regulatory barriers to help make America competitive
Quoting pu (Reply 17):
The US government has in years passed collected taxes marked on paycheck stubs as 'social security tax' which it has instead used for general government spending.

Nice try, but missing the mark.

FICA contributions go to pay for both Social Security and Medicare. The Social Security Trust loans money to the government for various long term projects (like the Interstate System and aircraft carriers) instead of loaning it wo Wall Street. A far better deal for the taxpayers AND for capital asset development.

Some probably would have preferred that the money would have been invested in Wall Street - in fact some politicians on the Right are working hard to move the whole program over to their friends in Wall Street.

Quoting pu (Reply 17):
It accounts for this by calling it 'intergovernmental debt,'. This debt is owed to no one

A simple comment to try to eliminate the government's responsibility. Destroying the Full Faith & Confidence in the US Treasury.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 21):
"Ryan told Fox News that he and Romney want "to clear up the tax loopholes, get rid of special interest loopholes to lower tax rates for everybody."

Basically that means that interest and property taxes on your house will not be deductible in the future. Romney will fight to keep donations to charities and churches as that delivers a LOT of tax reductions for him - as long as he tithes.


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
There's also Social Security which should be phased out and accounts for 20% as well.

Are the Republicans going to pass a law allowing voluntary euthanasia the reduce the misery and poverty you are so excited about pushing the elderly into? Maybe not so voluntary if the wealthy works out much can be saved if . . .


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Right - and be sure to pass that open carry law in all states while you're at it. Those not in poverty will need those guns for protection and those in poverty can simply steal the guns they need.

Social programs are extortion now?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
BTW, you didn't mention how you would have replaced those jobs that would have been lost when GM & CHrysler was liquidated. Be sure to add in the jobs of component suppliers and those who made their livings off of those workers.

Set up an environment that promotes growth and jobs take care of themselves. But if GM and Chrysler were liquidated, I bet a lot of the jobs would have come back as pieces were cut up and sold (all the evil private equity firms would have come running), while other car makers would have picked up the slack in the market.



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Some probably would have preferred that the money would have been invested in Wall Street - in fact some politicians on the Right are working hard to move the whole program over to their friends in Wall Street.

I'd much prefer having that money in the hands of the people to whom it actually belongs. If they want to send it to Wall Street, that's their decision. If you feel so strongly that it does the most good in government hands, then by all means go invest it in US treasuries.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Basically that means that interest and property taxes on your house will not be deductible in the future. Romney will fight to keep donations to charities and churches as that delivers a LOT of tax reductions for him - as long as he tithes.

If he did that he'd have a lot less to tithe. The deduction for interest is a key that allows private equity to work as well as it does.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Are the Republicans going to pass a law allowing voluntary euthanasia the reduce the misery and poverty you are so excited about pushing the elderly into?

You could also save money over the course of your working life, but if euthanasia works better for you...



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
I'd much prefer having that money in the hands of the people to whom it actually belongs.

I much rather have money going in to the biggest possible insurance system there can be in a country. Best option to handle people living longer or shorter time once retired, risks of disability, etc.

Seems like the smart solution to me.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
I much rather have money going in to the biggest possible insurance system there can be in a country.

Then go buy insurance from the biggest company you can find or buy government securities and leave my money alone.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
How do you explain IMF's data?

The IMF is counting money already collected by the US government in tax revenue as debt, because the money was spent on general government expenditures and not on social security. Repeat: this money wasn't borrowed. It is money deducted from paychecks under the caption 'social security tax' but spent on programs besides social security. This is not national debt by international standards and when you are comparing USA national debt to other countries, the only correct source is the US treasury itself and specifically the figure found here "Debt Held by the Public":
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

Most foreign sources and international organisations like to deceptively include America's intragovernmental debt in their charts or comparisons, mainly because it justifies the generally much worse condition of everyone else.. The IMF in particular is interested in advancing the idea that more debt is ok.
The CIA factbook gets it right.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Nice try, but missing the mark

The "mark" is the fact that this is not national debt by international standards. The details are beyond most readers, 'intragovernmental debt' is not debt because it was borrowed from no one , it is taxes already collected...and no other nation on earth includes such transactions in their national debt figure.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
A simple comment to try to eliminate the government's responsibility. Destroying the Full Faith & Confidence in the US Treasury

As with all of the USA's debt the Fed can and does simply monetize the debt. It can do so at anytime with the 'intragovernmental holdings' number. Bernanke announced today he is monetizing a minimum of $40bn a month in motrgage debt and if the world economy ever fully rights itself, he might begin monetizing the intragovernmental holdings number.

BTW, America's unmatched ability to monetize debt in massive amounts without inflation means any US debt figures aren't truly comparable to any EUzone state's debt (Spain, Greece, etc...) because they are tied to the Germans who won't let them simply print money. The overseas demand for dollars gives America tremendous abilities...

Pu

PS... insisting on calling money borrowed from one government department and spent by another 'intragovernmental debt' IS a good way to hold politicians accountable for their endless trickery (same in all countries), and I support keeping the figure prominent, but the only figure correctly used for comparisons is US debt held by the public, not debt issued by the government and also held by the goernment....


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Why not add in personal debt, since this is a figure where the US is not so good? And what about states debt ? Some countries don't have those.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7063 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
And what about states debt ? Some countries don't have those.

Correct, some countires do not have local governments who have tax and spending authority like US States, they rely on a budget from their central government.
US states have their own debt, their own funding sources and tax authority which is separate and apart from the federal government, and are held responsible for said debt. When they default, the federal government steps in, but until they do, it is the state responsibility, so can it really be booked to the national debt as a matter of course?


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting cupraibiza (Reply 34):

Whatzup?...wan duznt half 2 knoww hou toooooooooo zpel tumaT beeeeg nAmricka...sined...sxcesssfL.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):

As far as personal debt, Americans are shrinking thst number massively and have been since the current economic crisis began. The average American is today "only" about ~ $2200 in debt and the average family still has a net worth of about $77000. Net worth has declined quite a bit with recent troubles, but a nation where the average famly has U$D 77k in assets is....notable.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/11/news...omy/fed-family-net-worth/index.htm

As far as US states or cities issuing debt, many other nations do have similar situations, while as you say some don't. Local government entities aren't backed by the national government, and they do from time to time default or go bankrupt.

The point I have been making on this thread is that the national debt figure used for international comparitive purposes is correct only considering the US debt held by he public, which is aout 11 trillion dollars (! not small !), or about 65% of GDP. This is the only way to compare apples to apples and look at US national debt compared to debt in other countries.

Pu


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
Then go buy insurance from the biggest company you can find or buy government securities and leave my money alone.

I'm not touching your money. Stop being a freeloader.

Quoting pu (Reply 41):
Most foreign sources and international organisations like to deceptively include America's intragovernmental debt in their charts or comparisons, mainly because it justifies the generally much worse condition of everyone else.. The IMF in particular is interested in advancing the idea that more debt is ok.
The CIA factbook gets it right.

Only explains US numbers. Doesn't explain the big difference in the other countries numbers.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8403 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

My question is, how is it possible for a US company to have a higher credit rating than the US government?

If GE borrows money and pays back in dollars, that's subject to the same inflation risk that the Fed'd debt has.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
Only explains US numbers. Doesn't explain the big difference in the other countries number

Not sure what you are referring to here? What big difference in the other contries numbers from what source?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
My question is, how is it possible for a US company to have a higher credit rating than the US government?

If you read the lengthy explanation Standard and Poor's provided when they downgraded The USA, the explanation had little to do with its financial ability to pay. The ability to pay is in fact unquestionable, the USA can simply print money, or in modern terms, electronically credit your bank account with a payment on its debt.

The downgrade came because of the political circus called The United States Congress. Despite an unrivaled financial ability to issue and service debt, the US Congress apparently lacks the political integrity to ensure funding and payments are approved in a timely way for commitments already made. They are willng to sacrifice debt holders, credit ratings and the reputation of America in order to make a poltical stance - and its very conceivable that in future a partisan deadlocked congress could technically default on servicing its debts as politicians yell insults at each other in political theatre.

Pu


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8403 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 48):
The ability to pay is in fact unquestionable, the USA can simply print money, or in modern terms, electronically credit your bank account with a payment on its debt.

That's certainly a very interesting and true point. I think the downgrade today also mentioned the Federal Reserve monetizing the debt, making the US dollar less valuable. This of course would impact any dollar denominated corporate debt in the exact same way. So, I'd expect them all to be downgraded in lockstep.

I agree that the US Congress might just say screw it. So, that's a valid reason to downgrade apart from corporate debt.


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