stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3267 posts, RR: 6 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7779 times:
The U.S. embassy in Cairo were attacked today by furious Muslim crowds because of a film that attacks the prophet Muhammad. An anti-Muslim (and Egyptian national) Coptic Christian religious campaigner now based in the United States posted clips on YouTube that "depicts Muhammad as a fraud, and shows him having sex and calling for massacres" according to the NY Times. Reports on CNN state that one American has been killed at the U.S. State Department consulate in Benghazi, and that Libya security forces are "struggling to restore order" in Benghazi, while the crowd continues to loot the consulate and refuses to vacate the premises. The Embassy in Cairo is apparently surrounded by angry protestors.
My question is that the film was posted to YouTube on July 2, 2012. Why did these violent protests take place on September 11th - to prove a point?? The poster and producer of the film in an EGYTIAN..... so attack the United States Embassies? I simply fail to understand the connection....
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7742 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Reports on CNN state that one American has been killed at the embassy in Cairo
According to the Guardian, the man died in Benghazi. Also from the same article:
Quote: Reuters reporters on the scene could see looters raiding the compound, walking off with desks, chairs and washing machines.[quote]
[quote=stasisLAX,reply=0]I simply fail to understand the connection....
I simply fail to see why anyone has to put up with that or die, whenever something gets published or uploaded online, whether that is on the same day or months later.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4633 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): so attack the United States Embassies? I simply fail to understand the connection....
We are the "great satan" and many there choose to believe that. I mean, heck, we are willing and able to mock sacred religious figures without reprisal in our country, we operate under law that supersedes religious mandates, we must be bad.
It is certainly easier to blame and attack a foreign entity that you perceive as imposing it's views on you since you know they will do everything they can to not attack you back. Certainly much easier than attacking your own government or people when you know they will fight back and throw you in jail and even shoot you for this kind of stuff.
Tugg
[Edited 2012-09-11 17:11:30]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3267 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7730 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 1): According to the Guardian, the man died in Benghazi. Also from the same article:
CNN has now corrected their reporting - the death occurred at the Benghazi consulate - and they cannot yet independently confirm the victim was indeed an American....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7635 times:
And, what do we do? Condemn the moron that made the movie.
The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions.
What is wrong with apologising? With critisising hate speech against Islam?
Reacting in a a more ego-satisfying way, borrowing a page from the Dick Cheney playbook and using force, is precisely why America has lost its wealth and thousands of citizens in worthless wars in the desert. America kept in power the brutal undemocratic dictator Hosni Mubarek for decades, its a surprise the Egyptians haven't invaded the embassy entirely and taken everyone prisoner like the Iranians in 1979 did for the US keeping the brutal Shah in power.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7611 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 8): What is wrong with apologising?
Quite simply, when you apologize, you condone. We're telling these folks that it's ok to storm the compound, it's our fault. We'll do better next time.
I didn't say bomb the place. I didn't say send in SEAL Team 6. I didn't say close the place and cease diplomatic relations with Egypt.
At the minimum, I would have liked a strongly worded condemnation of the attacks and a demand to the Egyptian government that those responsible be held accountable.
But, what we get is some mealy mouthed condemnation of a person exercising his free speech.
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7593 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9): At the minimum, I would have liked a strongly worded condemnation of the attacks and a demand to the Egyptian government that those responsible be held accountable.
Since you seem big on accepting responsibility, are you ready to have America accept reponsibility for keeping a brutal dictator in power? Are you ready to compensate victims of Mubarek's regime or their families? Why do you get so unhinged about a protest but so easily overlook the vast damage America has subsidised in Egypt at the hands of Mubarek? Isn't this like Iran, where history only begins for you when a victimised people take action against the foreign interventionist? ...as the history of America's actions in he Middle East that causes anti- American sentiment is unknown or ignored....
I repeat: America is lucky the embassy isn't overrun and every American held hostage for what the USA has done in Egypt. If Obama manages fo keep this relatively calm and only in terms of protests, its a victory for the USA! Putting American macho egos and pride aside is doing whats best for the future.
us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3746 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7567 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7): What about the misguided indivduals that stormed the walls and entered the compound? You know, the sovereign territory of the United States?
Diplomacy's a difficult enterprise. Note that this was a public statement oriented towards the masses--you don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Right now the Embassy is just trying to stabilize the situation, and further infuriating the groups of people that stormed the embassy is counterproductive to that aim.
Just because the State Dept isn't publically issuing any statements condemning the action doesn't mean that they haven't done so (and more) to relevant Egyptian officials.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7558 times:
Quite simply, this isn't about Mubarek and his regime. This is anger against defiling the name and image of The Prophet, just like the Danish cartoons a few years ago.
The 'protesters' themselves claim that they are defending The Prophet. That, this is in response to someone producing a movie that, apparently, is hateful to Islam.
"This is a very simple reaction to harming our prophet," "Worshippers of the Cross, leave the Prophet Muhammad alone."
I will add, that this article now quotes Secretary Clinton as strongly condemning the attack in Benghazi (where an American was killed and the US Consulate burned). She also said:
"Some have sought to justify this vicious behavior as a response to inflammatory material posted on the Internet. The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. Our commitment to religious tolerance goes back to the very beginning of our nation. But let me be clear: There is never any justification for violent acts of this kind."
Still smacks a little bit of 'blame the producers, not the rioters' but better than nothing.
Mr. Bacile and Mr. Sadek are exercising their right to free speech. In fact, the rioters, acknowledge that he has a right to free speech, and they claim a right to free action.
One slogan scrawled on the walls of the embassy, which is near Tahrir Square where Egyptians revolted against Mubarak, said: "If your freedom of speech has no limits, may you accept our freedom of action."
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7540 times:
Have those that forment violence forgotten that which they preach?
"It is no concern of yours whether He will forgive or punish them. They are
wrongdoers. His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. He pardons
whom He will and punishes whom He pleases. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Sura: 3, Ayat: 128-129
Whatever Bacile's motives may have been, they do not justify the violence aimed at the US Embassy in Cairo and the US Consulate in Benghazi (assuming the two incidents were linked). Whoever is behind these attacks is likely to be trying to enhance their own political standing by inciting mob rule. Their actions do no service to Muslims in particular or Egyptians/ Libyans in general. By inciting violence they simply confirm in the eyes of many that Muslims are irrational and full of hate.
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7533 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
Quite simply, this isn't about Mubarek and his regime
My god, do you accept any responsibility for yourself and American foreign policy?
Really, you sound like Paul Wolfowitz or Karl Rove always trying to blame America's troubles on foreigners, especially Muslims. Here's the top line in their playbook: "Its easy to convince people Muslims are to blame for America's problems in cases where America shares the blame since the small minded segment of Americans can not cope with admiting America made a mistake."
This protest is nominally about a movie, but it is just the straw that broke the camel's back - the culmination of decades of animosity against America for its murderous foreign policiy in Egypt. God forbid you realise Muslims are angry at America for its foreign policy and nothing else! The history of this event does not begin when your ego is bruised and it makes Fox News, it began long ago. ...but its easier to blame others than take responsibility for America's actions, so carry on...
How many people did Mubarek kill and which foreign power kept him in place? What should the Egyptians do about that?
iFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 381 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7532 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 5): Just another example of why we need to lose our oil addiction and abandon the entire region. Let them fester back in the 7th century, I don't care.
Yeah that'll do it, cut off the governments money to supply their armies and then have anarchy fall upon the country. I don't think we want another Somalia.
I personally am okay with the protesting. We let people protest things that they want to here so over there its hypocritical to say stop that.
The storming of the embassy and the attacking the consulate is where I have the problem. That's a threat to our sovereignty, and if we were to do that here we would be shot by the guards of whatever embassy it was on sight. So I don't get why the Marines that are stationed there didn't do more to stop it, and why the Egyptian riot police did nothing either.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14352 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7527 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7): The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Say we don't condone hate speech, but we do protect the rights of people to say it and will not apologize for that.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7): What about the misguided indivduals that stormed the walls and entered the compound?
Condemnation is not a finite resource.
Quoting pu (Reply 10): I repeat: America is lucky the embassy isn't overrun and every American held hostage for what the USA has done in Egypt.
The Egyptians are lucky that hasn't happened too. Uncle Sam giveth and Uncle Sam can taketh away. And giveth to other people... I wonder if the Israelis would be interested in more weapons?
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12): One slogan scrawled on the walls of the embassy, which is near Tahrir Square where Egyptians revolted against Mubarak, said: "If your freedom of speech has no limits, may you accept our freedom of action."
I'm pretty sure the Egyptians can paint their country however they like.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7501 times:
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 15): I personally am okay with the protesting. We let people protest things that they want to here so over there its hypocritical to say stop that.
I have absolutely no problem with protests, so long as they remain peaceful.
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 15): So I don't get why the Marines that are stationed there didn't do more to stop it, and why the Egyptian riot police did nothing either.
It didn't require a Marine response (at least in Egypt). No American was threatened or injured. The actual building was not occupied. I'm not sure what the Marines' orders are in this type of situation, but I doubt their orders are to engage anyone coming over the wall. Probably more along the lines of self-defense and defense of embassy personnel.
As for the Egyptians, apparently the thing got out of hand rather quickly.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17): I'm pretty sure the Egyptians can paint their country however they like
Actually, not their country. The wall and the compound are considered US sovereign territory. Look, they can scrawl whatever they want on the walls (our's or their's) but, they're (or, the misguided person(s) that did the writing) telling us that they will answer our folks exercising their freedom of speech with 'action' and that we should accept that. It's a threat.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7420 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 5): Just another example of why we need to lose our oil addiction and abandon the entire region. Let them fester back in the 7th century, I don't care.
Interesting !
Entire region ?
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9): But, what we get is some mealy mouthed condemnation of a person exercising his free speech.
Like we see exercised, in the U.S of A, every day of the week !
Quoting pu (Reply 10): Since you seem big on accepting responsibility, are you ready to have America accept reponsibility for keeping a brutal dictator in power?
OHHHHH...
Let's not even go there.
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 15): I personally am okay with the protesting. We let people protest things that they want to here so over there its hypocritical to say stop that.
"Free speech" USA style ?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17): The Egyptians are lucky that hasn't happened too. Uncle Sam giveth and Uncle Sam can taketh away. And giveth to other people... I wonder if the Israelis would be interested in more weapons?
And how many more millions/Billions, of U.S dollars, to prop another regime, in the "region" !
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7368 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
It is certainly easier to blame and attack a foreign entity that you perceive as imposing it's views on you since you know they will do everything they can to not attack you back. Certainly much easier than attacking your own government or people when you know they will fight back and throw you in jail and even shoot you for this kind of stuff.
Yeah, let's not forget what kind of crap those people hear from their own agitators and incendiaries, those radical imams who spread vicious rumors and inflame people as best they could. During the Danish cartoons affair, polls among protesters in Islamic countries revealed that they had totally distorted beliefs of what had actually happened.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20): Yeah your welcome, Egypt and Libya, for supporting your individual revolutions! We thoroughly appreciate the attacks against our embassies
... support which came when we absolutely couldn't continue supporting the despots with whom we had so conveniently worked in the decades before, because they promised us stability and to keep Islamists in check.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12337 posts, RR: 12 Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7359 times:
It is being reported that the US Ambassador and 3 others have been killed in Libya. This is very bad.
It is stupid to attack and kill us, but as other posters have noted, our policies for generations in the Islamic world supporting despots that murdered too many of their own citizens set off by an alleged insult of Islam have caused these attacks.
Even the previous killings of Embassy/consulate personal and attacks on diplomatic facilities in Egypt triggered comments by Romney, condemning Obama that came late on 9/11 although they were not to be released until after midnight. This is going to be the wild card out of nowhere issue that could affect our Presidential race, especially with the threats of Israel attacking Iran before the election.
So what can be done? Arrest the producers of the alleged video and hang then in a public square? Pass laws censoring our media, YouTube and the Internet to prevent anything critical as to Islam? Send 1000's of troops to protect our embassies in the Islamic world? Abandon our posts in those countries? It is a very disturbing thought of what it will cost us in lives and our daily lives.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6298 posts, RR: 6 Reply 25, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7476 times:
At least no one was killed in Egypt. The attack in Libyawas disgusting, 4 people killed including the ambassador of Libya someonewho only wanted to help the people of Libya The people who did those attacks are disgusting people and the U.S. should just stop any type of aid to Libya until their government fully condemns and helps protect U.S. assets I'm the area. The ambassador was killed by a ROCKET!
They can protest all they want but once people get killed it is a big problem. To do this over a movie is scary and shows the way these people who did this live. Do we see this happening in Jordan, or Indonesia or many other countries with huge Muslim populations? No, those are civilized people. Hopefully none will follow but if the countries don't condem these attacks and help prevent them from happening again forget them. Cut off ties, cut off money and let them be. Just a leave them alone.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7462 times:
Not the first time when someone releases something insulting towards Islam and gets his nationals killed, happened already with that cartoon in Denmark. There are always extremists who get very insulted and violent from this kind of things no matter what, so that's why I think it is very irresponsible to release this kind of movies and other things as they almost always cause violence.
In the end most of the issues would be prevented if people didn't do this kind of insulting things, and if US stopped playing as world police and just left other countries handle their own politics. (though of course if things like genocide happen then it's OK to try and stop them which doesn't mean starting a war).
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2598 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7544 times:
I find it hard to respect a 'religion' which inspires its adherents to unlimited violence at the first sign of offence. I saw one count of 109 verses of the Koran advocating killing of 'infidels'. Difficult to sell this "religion of peace" line, especially when the "peaceful" memebers of the faith are deafening in their silence whenever attrocities are committed in their name.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 28, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7531 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27): especially when the "peaceful" memebers of the faith are deafening in their silence whenever attrocities are committed in their name.
I presume you did not read posting # 23
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 23): Feel very ashamed of this cruel an uncalled for action. RIP
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7522 times:
Well if you look into history of Christianity you can see that it's full of violence too...
Myself I find pretty much every religion originated from Middle East to have violent stuff inside their teachings. If these countries happened to be Christian and then rich western countries Muslim I don't think there would be any less violence. Stable society and education are the key to keep number of extremists low.
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 30, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7473 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27): especially when the "peaceful" memebers of the faith are deafening in their silence whenever attrocities are committed in their name.
From the link provided by SOBHI51:
"Libyan Deputy Prime Minister Mustafa Abushagur said Stevens was "a friend of Libya, and we are shocked at the the attacks on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi."
"I condemn these barbaric acts in the strongest possible terms. This is an attack on America, Libya and free people everywhere,"
And:
"Libya's governing party condemned the attack as a "criminal and cowardly act" and vowed to "track down the perpetrators and to maintain the country's security and the safety and security of its guests," Libya's official LANA news agency reported."
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 32, posted (8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7421 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 26): In the end most of the issues would be prevented if people didn't do this kind of insulting things,
So, effectively, you say that we (people who enjoy free speech) should shut up as to not offend?
What happens when the extremists take issue with our eating pork products? Easy, just stop eating pork.
What happens when they take issue with our growing tolerance of homosexuality? Easy, put the homosexuals to the sword.
Appeasement never works.
R.I.P. Ambassador Stevens and the 3 others (haven't seen any names yet) who were killed in Libya. Unconfirmed reports are that 2 of those killed were Marine guards.
Killing an ambassador is an act of war, no? Let's hope this settles out quickly and those responsible are held accountable.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7788 posts, RR: 22 Reply 33, posted (8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7415 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 24): It is being reported that the US Ambassador and 3 others have been killed in Libya. This is very bad.
It is stupid to attack and kill us, but as other posters have noted, our policies for generations in the Islamic world supporting despots that murdered too many of their own citizens set off by an alleged insult of Islam have caused these attacks.
These murders cannot be justified by US foreign policy "supporting despots", and shame on you for trying. The US was against Qaddafi for a generation, and supported their Arab Spring uprising last year. These murders were caused by a culture that is completely incapable of tolerating the slightest insult. It's like having a neighbor who starts shooting up the neighborhood every time a kid rides his bike on his lawn. Yes, an anti-muslim movie was made. SO WHAT? Brush it off. That's no excuse for invading an embassy and killing the ambassador.
Now we have a major situation. This action is nothing less than an act of war. How will Obama react? I should hope he takes a little time from his busy campaigning schedule to actually deal with the issues addressing the nation (like he was not willing to do to meet the PM of Israel). He has an opportunity to look presidential here. Let's see what he does.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 34, posted (8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7392 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 10): Since you seem big on accepting responsibility, are you ready to have America accept reponsibility for keeping a brutal dictator in power?
This had nothing to do with Mubarak, it was over a depiction of Muhammad.
Quoting pu (Reply 14): Really, you sound like Paul Wolfowitz or Karl Rove always trying to blame America's troubles on foreigners, especially Muslims.
The only relevant troubles America has here is that its embassies were stormed. And yes, that is entirely to blame on foreigners.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 26): Not the first time when someone releases something insulting towards Islam and gets his nationals killed, happened already with that cartoon in Denmark. There are always extremists who get very insulted and violent from this kind of things no matter what, so that's why I think it is very irresponsible to release this kind of movies and other things as they almost always cause violence.
No. We will not start limiting freedom of speech just because some people don't like what's put out. That would be akin to giving in to blackmail, and nobody should stand for it.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 26): In the end most of the issues would be prevented if people didn't do this kind of insulting things, and if US stopped playing as world police and just left other countries handle their own politics. (though of course if things like genocide happen then it's OK to try and stop them which doesn't mean starting a war).
The US was only playing world police in Libya because the UN asked them to. I don't see anything wrong with that.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7365 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 34): No. We will not start limiting freedom of speech just because some people don't like what's put out. That would be akin to giving in to blackmail, and nobody should stand for it.
Making people die just for sake of freedom of speech makes no sense to me, especially when all these movies and other things are made just to insult group of people and create nothing good and is simply asking for trouble. There is no way to fight against these attacks other than stopping insulting their religion and start making civilized foreign policy.
Using freedom of speech to intentionally insult group of people isn't right.
Quoting Mir (Reply 34): The US was only playing world police in Libya because the UN asked them to. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Yes, I think US acts in Libya were justified as people themselves started the revolution against tyranny of Gaddafi. However Iraq and if we go further back in history Vietnam were bad mistakes, not to mention all smaller operations.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32): What happens when the extremists take issue with our eating pork products? Easy, just stop eating pork.
What happens when they take issue with our growing tolerance of homosexuality? Easy, put the homosexuals to the sword.
I don't think extremists really care what westerners do as long as they don't intervene their politics, start wars or insult their religion. At least most European countries seem to have a lot less problems with these people thanks to our less aggressive foreign policy.
When looking back in history it seems that Christians have generally been the ones forcing their beliefs and habits to other people using violence. Muslims actually did mostly let non-Muslims in their area to keep their beliefs and traditions.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 36, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7333 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Making people die just for sake of freedom of speech makes no sense to me, especially when all these movies and other things are made just to insult group of people and create nothing good and is simply asking for trouble.
These same movies are made about every other religion and you do not see them storming other countries embassies!!
Freedom of speech must remain free, it is the radical people that feel they can damage property and kill people because they are offended that needs to stop!!
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 37, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7273 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Making people die just for sake of freedom of speech makes no sense to me
The only ones making people die are those who committed these attacks.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): There is no way to fight against these attacks other than stopping insulting their religion and start making civilized foreign policy.
What you're basically saying is that people in the Middle East are primed to kill if their religion is insulted. You're saying that if you take action A (put out a video critical of their culture or religion), they can do nothing but take action B (kill people), and if you don't want action B you had better not do action A. In other words, they're animals incapable of rational thought, and they need to be treated as such.
I don't believe that - I think they are not animals; rather, they're people who are capable of rational thought and really do know right from wrong. And I think we should hold them to that standard. I also believe that these are a small minority of the population, and that we should expect those around them, who wouldn't even think that an insult to their beliefs justifies killing, to hold them to that standard as well.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Using freedom of speech to intentionally insult group of people isn't right.
I only watched a little bit of that video, but even I found it offensive. Yet I was not in the least bit compelled to storm anywhere or murder anyone.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7269 times:
Well I doubt it's going to stop soon. As long as there are plenty of uneducated people who can be brainwashed by religious fanatics there will be people who reacts to these things violent way and there is really no way to effectively fight against them as they are often not members of organized group.
I guess this is also a cultural thing, like someone already mentioned there are plenty of other Muslim countries where this kind of movies haven't caused any violence.
757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 645 posts, RR: 2 Reply 39, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7274 times:
RIP to the victims. I'm deeply saddened and also enraged.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33): These murders cannot be justified by US foreign policy "supporting despots", and shame on you for trying.
Well said.
That kind twisted logic was the one used by people all over to justify 9/11. The common speech would be "Of course I don't support terrorists BUT..."
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20): These types of attacks only make me hate and loathe religion more, especially fundies like these guys
I see your point, but that is simply wrong. I am against fundies just as much as you are, but putting all religions in the same bag doesn't work. It is like hating a whole country, a race or even a gender.
Respectfully,
GB
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 40, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7253 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 38): As long as there are plenty of uneducated people who can be brainwashed by religious fanatics there will be people who reacts to these things violent way and there is really no way to effectively fight against them as they are often not members of organized group.
The best way to fight against them is for the US to stay out of it and let their fellow countrymen and neighbors show them the error of their ways and bring them to justice. But if that's not going to happen, then we don't have much other option than to get involved.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
ImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1230 posts, RR: 14 Reply 42, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7254 times:
I don't care what the movie is about! This kind of behavior is totally unacceptable. Civilized people do not go about killing people just because they disagree with the contents of a movie!
These people are nothing but savages and there simply is NO excuse for their behavior.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 43, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7251 times:
The Marines in Cairo were given an order to stand down whilst watching OUR flag be desecrated, torn down and replaced with a black al Qaeda flag. I guarantee if I were there, my order would have been much different and there would be a pile of bodies around that flagpole if necessary.
That was an attack on our sovereign embassy. And the MURDER of our Ambassador in Libya is an act of war, by virtue of long-standing international law.
From Obama's ill-fated and mis-directed infamous "Cairo speech" to now, this administration has done nothing but bow, placate our enemies, apologize, and thus embolden our enemies.
It's time to start dealing in the stock and trade that these pigs only understand: blood.
I see the usual moral relativists and blame America first crowd and here. But this is feeling like Nov 4, 1979 all over again. We are helpless, economically eviscerated, under ruddlerless leadership with a president who is too busy going on Letterman to even care, much less do more than a perfunctory ill-worded response that instead of condemnation asks for more--YET MORE---religious sensitivity. Beam me up.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7216 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 43):
The Marines in Cairo were given an order to stand down whilst watching OUR flag be desecrated, torn down and replaced with a black al Qaeda flag. I guarantee if I were there, my order would have been much different and there would be a pile of bodies around that flagpole if necessary.
Where's freedom of speech now? If making a movie that insults group of people is OK then surely also burning humiliating a flag and replacing it with another one shouldn't be illegal either. It's just a piece of cloth.
In the end in most of US violent conflicts it has gone this way: Extremists do something violent -> US gets involved and causes civilian casualties -> Extremists get more support.
Practically government of United States has created most of the hate against US by this kind of behavior. Violence creates more violence. That's why the best way is simply letting these countries handle their own business and it should be fine unless someone goes and causes more hate by intentionally insulting religion of these people.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9614 posts, RR: 10 Reply 45, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7217 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 29): Well if you look into history of Christianity you can see that it's full of violence too...
Exactly, history, the PAST. Mute to bring it on the table each time masses of stupid muslims go nuts TODAY.
Imho too many Muslims are too busy digging the grave of their religion to have time to use their brain. The western world is no muslim territory, period. Free speech is key, and a dubious film is a form of free speech, even if it is as stupid as this. That Mohammed had sex with minors, a pedophile after our law, is undisputed. How stupid to think that there is even a 1% chance to change that by killing Western representatives. Each such overreaction will cause more hatred in the West, too. One more 9/11 and the Arabic world is no more.
What's up with these gung ho neocons? I bet if you saw funerals and grieving families at Fort Bragg or I bet if you ever served or have close ones in the armed forces you too would be alot more careful of what you would type behind a computer....
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7201 times:
Quoting na (Reply 45): Exactly, history, the PAST. Mute to bring it on the table each time masses of stupid muslims go nuts TODAY.
Imho too many Muslims are too busy digging the grave of their religion to have time to use their brain. The western world is no muslim territory, period. Free speech is key, and a dubious film is a form of free speech, even if it is as stupid as this. That Mohammed had sex with minors, a pedophile after our law, is undisputed. How stupid to think that there is even a 1% chance to change that by killing Western representatives. Each such overreaction will cause more hatred in the West, too. One more 9/11 and the Arabic world is no more.
Yeah blame whole Arabic world for 9/11, that's very intelligent.
Also motives behind 9/11 were not religious but about politics. After WW2 United States government and army have been messing around middle east constantly, it was just matter of time until some people got enough pissed off to strike back. Even if most US attacks that have caused civilian casualties have been accidents I doubt that really makes relatives of those who died feel any better.
I guess that also in US side big problem is lack of education. From what I have heard and seen around the internet it truly seems that at least public education in the US isn't much better than in Libya. Maybe if general public in United States had access to high quality European style education they would better also understand motives of these extremists and understand that responding violence with more violence isn't going to solve these things.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 48, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7195 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 44): Where's freedom of speech now? If making a movie that insults group of people is OK then surely also burning humiliating a flag and replacing it with another one shouldn't be illegal either. It's just a piece of cloth.
That flag is US property. If people want to go and buy their own flag and burn it, I really couldn't care less. I care quite a bit more when the flag that is burned is flying on the flagpole of an embassy.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 49, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7183 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 43):
The Marines in Cairo were given an order to stand down whilst watching OUR flag be desecrated, torn down and replaced with a black al Qaeda flag. I guarantee if I were there, my order would have been much different and there would be a pile of bodies around that flagpole if necessary.
Yes that would have been a great outcome. A piece of cloth would have been saved and many people (likely more Americans as well) would have lost their lives.
Quoting slider (Reply 43): That was an attack on our sovereign embassy. And the MURDER of our Ambassador in Libya is an act of war, by virtue of long-standing international law.
Yap, a bunch of thugs and murderers declared war on you. What now?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7181 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 48): That flag is US property. If people want to go and buy their own flag and burn it, I really couldn't care less. I care quite a bit more when the flag that is burned is flying on the flagpole of an embassy.
-Mir
At least in my country shooting people for destroying property isn't allowed.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 51, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7183 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 14): My god, do you accept any responsibility for yourself and American foreign policy?
Actually, Libya is the fruit of European policy. Libya will prove to be a colossal blunder and Obama will need to accept the blame for tagging along. "Easy" they said, as they facilitated the fall of yet another country to Islamists.
Yes, the entire middle east and North Africa. And why not. They offer nothing to the world other than oil and misery.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 44): Where's freedom of speech now? If making a movie that insults group of people is OK then surely also burning humiliating a flag and replacing it with another one shouldn't be illegal either. It's just a piece of cloth.
You fail to mention that that flagpole is on what is considered (in civilized countries) soveriegn territory. Would you feel the same about Britain raiding the Ecuador embassy to collect a wanted man?
Anyway, you'd think by now the West would have figured out that pulling this kind of crap in the Middle East and Africa doesn't work in the long run...
Gaddafi was a cruel asshole, but at least you could negotiate with the guy and he could keep the place mostly under control. Good luck trying to get anything from these guys, other than Karzai-style half-assed apologies while looking the other way.
AviRaider From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 163 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7133 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 50): At least in my country shooting people for destroying property isn't allowed.
Every country has a right to protect it's sovereign territory. I don't know if it would have been justified in this case though until the facts become known.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7130 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 51): You fail to mention that that flagpole is on what is considered (in civilized countries) soveriegn territory. Would you feel the same about Britain raiding the Ecuador embassy to collect a wanted man?
Destroying piece of cloth in sovereign territory is different thing than stealing a human being from sovereign territory.
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 53): Every country has a right to protect it's sovereign territory. I don't know if it would have been justified in this case though until the facts become known.
Well there are better methods than killing people for that, such as rubber bullets and tear gas.
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 55, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7140 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 44): Where's freedom of speech now? If making a movie that insults group of people is OK then surely also burning humiliating a flag and replacing it with another one shouldn't be illegal either. It's just a piece of cloth.
It's not just a piece of cloth. It's our sovereignty. You are aware of what am embassy is, right?
Freedom of speech for thee, but not for me, right? You can insult us, burn our flags and we do nothing, but dare ANYONE whisper so much as a criticizm against their own prophet and it's rioting, murders, storming embassies.
It would be laughable if it weren't something I've seen too many times in my life already. And it coincides again with the 9.11 embassry anniversary attacks in Kenya and Tanzania.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 46): What's up with these gung ho neocons? I bet if you saw funerals and grieving families at Fort Bragg or I bet if you ever served or have close ones in the armed forces you too would be alot more careful of what you would type behind a computer....
Check yourself, pal. You've no idea who I am, and I know intimately well of what I speak. But we beg for MORE funerals by bowing, cowering and not standing up with strength. If we were strong in the first place this wouldn't have happened. But we have our Apoligizer in Chief who continues to enable this sort of thing. That so-called "Arab Spring" is working out splendidly isn't it?
And maybe you can go placate the grieving families of Ambassador Stevens and the others before you make such a cowardly comment.
Quoting Rara (Reply 49):
Yap, a bunch of thugs and murderers declared war on you. What now?
Well, if I were Obama, I'd offer a stern, strognly worded warning, draw a line in the sand, draw in again, give a verbal rebuke, and....oh, wait, he already did that.....disregard.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7125 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 51): Yes, the entire middle east and North Africa. And why not. They offer nothing to the world other than oil and misery.
And unfortunately hunger of oil is what keeps United States getting involved in these regions. In Rwanda government committed huge genocide and US did absolutely nothing as there was no oil or much other important natural resources for United States to buy or steal.
Quoting slider (Reply 55): Well, if I were Obama, I'd offer a stern, strognly worded warning, draw a line in the sand, draw in again, give a verbal rebuke, and....oh, wait, he already did that.....disregard.
Well aggressive response, just what Bush did, did not work any better really but just fed terrorism and created huge amount of funerals. Bush and other ignorant US politicians sure have helped extremists a lot by making their popularity sky rocket.
QFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2030 posts, RR: 1 Reply 58, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7095 times:
This is a phenomenal occurrence, happening on 9/11 to boot. When will the west wake up and realise that this is how Muslims behave, as instructed by the Qu'ran. Murdering because your feelings are hurt is a sub-human response and should be treated as such. At what point do extremist Muslim reactions become normal Muslim reactions.
Good on the producer, Muslims just like everyone else are not above being ridiculed and mocked. As a Catholic I hate seeing my leaders denigrated as kiddy fiddlers for the amusement of others however murder is ridiculous. I'm glad we're seeing an increase in provocation of the Muslim world, either they'll grow up or they'll prove to the world they are a pathetic bunch of people who deserve to be left in the 7th century.
Mitt Romney has unwittingly gained a massive advantage over Obama who will be going majorly into damage control, this will provide a massive shakeup.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 59, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7089 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 56): And unfortunately hunger of oil is what keeps United States getting involved in these regions.
Of course it's easy for you to overlook the fact that you have benefited immensely from that as well, isn't it?
Nevertheless, that is why the main priority of the US should be to lose that oil addiction at all costs. It is the single most important policy we can peruse. Let the Europeans and Asians deal with it, we need to move on.
While i consider Obama an amateur overall, I have to vote for him solely for his energy policies.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 2485 posts, RR: 35 Reply 60, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7093 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 43): The Marines in Cairo were given an order to stand down whilst watching OUR flag be desecrated, torn down and replaced with a black al Qaeda flag. I guarantee if I were there, my order would have been much different and there would be a pile of bodies around that flagpole if necessary.
Quoting slider (Reply 43): It's time to start dealing in the stock and trade that these pigs only understand: blood.
Quoting slider (Reply 43): I see the usual moral relativists and blame America first crowd and here
Quoting slider (Reply 55): It's not just a piece of cloth. It's our sovereignty. You are aware of what am embassy is, right?
Quoting slider (Reply 55): Freedom of speech for thee, but not for me, right?
Quoting slider (Reply 55): Check yourself, pal. You've no idea who I am, and I know intimately well of what I speak. But we beg for MORE funerals by bowing, cowering and not standing up with strength. If we were strong in the first place this wouldn't have happened. But we have our Apoligizer in Chief who continues to enable this sort of thing. That so-called "Arab Spring" is working out splendidly isn't it?
And maybe you can go placate the grieving families of Ambassador Stevens and the others before you make such a cowardly comment.
Do you realize how much you sound like the people you condemn?
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 46): I bet if you ever served or have close ones in the armed forces you too would be alot more careful of what you would type behind a computer....
Well said.
[Edited 2012-09-12 08:24:20]
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9614 posts, RR: 10 Reply 61, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7074 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 47): Yeah blame whole Arabic world for 9/11, that's very intelligent.
Where did I say so? I was talking of masses of stupid muslims. Nowhere I said that this is the same as the majority, and even less so the "whole Arabic world".
Quoting pvjin (Reply 47): Also motives behind 9/11 were not religious but about politics. After WW2 United States government and army have been messing around middle east constantly
Without a reason? Dream on. As the Middle East exists because the US and the West pay huge sums of money for their oil it would be utterly naive if not. That the US made many mistakes there is undisputed.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 47): I guess that also in US side big problem is lack of education.
I do not dispute that. But that could be said about the Arabic world with even more right. Blind hatred is the reaction of the stupid and uninformed.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7075 times:
Quoting na (Reply 61): Where did I say so? I was talking of masses of stupid muslims. Nowhere I said that this is the same as the majority, and even less so the "whole Arabic world".
Well you said "One more 9/11 and the Arabic world is no more.", which to me seemed like blaming whole Arabic world for terrorism.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4794 posts, RR: 9 Reply 63, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7066 times:
Quoting na (Reply 61): I do not dispute that. But that could be said about the Arabic world with even more right. Blind hatred is the reaction of the stupid and uninformed.
Well, bullets and bombs won't educate anyone.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 645 posts, RR: 2 Reply 64, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7071 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 51): Would you feel the same about Britain raiding the Ecuador embassy to collect a wanted man?
That is just it isn't it? Things are never right or wrong in themselves, it all depends who does them or whom they are done too. Everything is relative... Einstein would be proud...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
thediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 7 Reply 65, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7072 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32): Killing an ambassador is an act of war, no? Let's hope this settles out quickly and those responsible are held accountable.
It is an act of war, if carried out by orders of the state. Way back, The IRA killed the UK ambassador to Ireland. This was a terrorist act, not done in the name of Ireland, so not an act of War, but an act of mindless terrorism and murder.
A big difference.
Quoting slider (Reply 43):
The Marines in Cairo were given an order to stand down whilst watching OUR flag be desecrated, torn down and replaced with a black al Qaeda flag. I guarantee if I were there, my order would have been much different and there would be a pile of bodies around that flagpole if necessary.
And that would really help things.
An eye for an eye never got us anywhere.
Quoting slider (Reply 43): And the MURDER of our Ambassador in Libya is an act of war
As above, only an act of war if it was sanctioned by the head of state.
The people who did this are despots. The countries, and the vast majority of the inhabitants are not however. I would go as far as saying that 99.99999999999999% of Muslims are peace loving non terrorists.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6991 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 55): It's not just a piece of cloth. It's our sovereignty. You are aware of what am embassy is, right?
you do realize your arguments are basically condoning the attacks on the embassy over a movie right?
Just want to make sure you are ok with this logic.
It is horrible that people believe they should resort to Violence just for the sake of honor or religion.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 67, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6981 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 56): Well aggressive response, just what Bush did, did not work any better really but just fed terrorism and created huge amount of funerals. Bush and other ignorant US politicians sure have helped extremists a lot by making their popularity sky rocket
Quoting cmf (Reply 60): Do you realize how much you sound like the people you condemn?
Peace through strength does however. Teddy said it best when he advocated to walk softly and carry a big stick. Pray that we never have to use it. But always be ready to....and there's nothing wrong with your enemies knowing that. Our enemies know we will do nothing because our own president has said so. Go re-read the Cairo speech. It set the groundwork for passivity and pants-wetting.
Quoting thediplomat (Reply 65): The people who did this are despots. The countries, and the vast majority of the inhabitants are not however. I would go as far as saying that 99.99999999999999% of Muslims are peace loving non terrorists.
Keep parroting that fatally flawed conventional wisdom.
The people who did that are NOT despots. They're terrorists. They're also Muslim Brotherhood leaders. They're affiliated with al Qaeda. You saw the black flag right? Did you know al Zawahiri organized the Egyptian scene? Did you hear the chants of bin Laden? It was a deliberate poke in the eye on the 9/11 anniversary.
Libya is burning, Egypt has had a shift, Syria--do we need to elaborate on the horrors there?, and the entire Middle East is being overtaken by Islamists. Radical islamists (a redundancy, but I reinforce to make a clear distinction--since too many peopel on this board refuse to do so--between 'normal' Islam and Islamism). If there were any question about radicalism, that question's been answered dramatically. The Arab Street is continually rage-filled, driven by their misguided perceptions of the Great Satan instead of being outraged at how they continue to be exploited by the very radicals that they would otherwise be ambivalent to. They're both pawns and yet allow themselves to pawns because of the dogma of their ideology.
Throughout their history since 632AD they've proven incapable of self-governance, self-control or non-violence in any uniform manner and in any location. And now at the early part of the 21st Century, even those Islam states that were being tenuously held in check by strong authoritative leaders are now running off the rails.
What will the consequences be?
That's the real question to start asking--that and what our actions will be. Certainly the region and all of Islam is unstable. Incendiary in fact. The VERY LAST thing we should do is apologize or sit on our hands.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6961 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 67): Our enemies know we will do nothing because our own president has said so. Go re-read the Cairo speech. It set the groundwork for passivity and pants-wetting.
Even during more aggressive period of time, when Bush was in power terrorist attacks still happened frequently. Most of these extremists highly believe that if they die in battle they will be go to heaven and be heroes there. I doubt they really can be made to fear US no matter how much power would be used against them and people around them, only thing it can cause them is death which they apparently don't fear at all.
thediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 7 Reply 69, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6958 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 67): Certainly the region and all of Islam is unstable.
Lets not run away with this.
99.999999999999999999999999999999% of muslims are peaceful people.
All this talk of act of war is just crazy.
The on the ground 'apology' is a tactic to calm the situation. You don't pour petrol on a fire.
I know certain people here wanted the flag protected by shooting people, but that would have created an even bigger mess where many many americans would have died.
Quoting slider (Reply 67): Radical islamists (a redundancy, but I reinforce to make a clear distinction--since too many peopel on this board refuse to do so--between 'normal' Islam and Islamism).
Totally refuse this concept. . As a catholic, I dont stand up for islam, but to not see a difference between idiot murderers in the name of religion and the rest of a religions populous is simply crazy.
Ireland had terrorists acting in their eyes on our behalf. However, they did not act on our behalf. They were murderous despots - idiots of the prime order, who eventually saw the grand mistake of their ways.
These idiots are not acting on behalf of Islam, Egypt or Libya.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 70, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6956 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 8): What is wrong with apologising?
Apologizing only gets you so far, if any. It still does not solve a damn thing because the problem is still there even after one apologizes. An apology, to most people, isnt enough to make amends.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 74, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6916 times:
Quoting thediplomat (Reply 65): 99.99999999999999% of Muslims are peace loving non terrorists
This is said over and over again but those same 99.99% never round up the extremists and prosecute them to prove to the rest of the world that Islam is changing for the good and other religions went through their changes to not be radical and extreamist.
If they want us to believe they are peace loving they need to take a stand and arrest and prosecute these radical fools.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9614 posts, RR: 10 Reply 75, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6889 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 62): Well you said "One more 9/11 and the Arabic world is no more.", which to me seemed like blaming whole Arabic world for terrorism.
Saying that and blaming are two different pair of shoes. Terrorism is epidemic in the violent muslim world, and another big scale terrorism attack like 9/11 will force more thorough measures than so far. I dont mean nukes or huge armies, just leaving the Arab world (oil areas aside) in the shit they have largely put themselves in.
Usually not, but at least the bullets and bombs of 1943-45 made the Germans better forever.
Quoting pu (Reply 8): What is wrong with apologising?
Apologizing? For having free speech? The Islam world has to accept they have no right to interfere in democratic countries 10.000 miles away.
That said, of cause this film that caused this is a stupid piece of hatred. But a democracy can stand it.
thediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 7 Reply 76, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6894 times:
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 74): This is said over and over again but those same 99.99% never round up the extremists and prosecute them to prove to the rest of the world that Islam is changing for the good and other religions went through their changes to not be radical and extreamist.
Did 99.9999999% of Irish round up the IRA for twenty years? No - its always someone elses job.
Guys, all I'm saying is that don't judge everyone by the actions of a few. The Irish were treated like terrorists in the UK for decades because of the actions of a vast minority. 99% of irish were not represented by our thugs. Were Catholics in mexico culpable for the actions of a anti protestant terrorist group in Ireland? Is a Muslim in China culpable for the actions of a Libyan thug? 99.9999999% of muslims are not represented by these thugs.
Now, Lets focus on the issue - Egypt is a basket case, as is Libya. Lebanese friends said to me that Egypt has never seen non despot rule ever.
KBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 96 posts, RR: 8 Reply 78, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6854 times:
So I guess the Religion of Peace has pushed the POTUS into a corner that he is unpreprepared for. Perhaps he should hold a beer summit or a reach back into his past as a community organizer and start an after school basketball league or a quilting guild for these misguided youths. He doesn't have a clue and the middle east is only going to get worse as a result.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6293 posts, RR: 23 Reply 79, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6845 times:
Maybe 'worshippers of the cross' hailing from Egypt will be a little more inclined to leave Muslims alone when the day comes that they can worship at Christmas time without being blown up.
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 80, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6839 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 55): But we have our Apoligizer in Chief who continues to enable this sort of thing. That so-called "Arab Spring" is working out splendidly isn't it?
Yeah, what should we have done? Use our force and influence to keep Arab dictators in power?
When the Arab Spring came about, every commentator knew that it would bring instability and unrest to the region. That's what happens when whole populations stand up against their government. Nobody can control the forces that break loose. It's in the nature of violent uprisings. There's literally nothing we could have done about it.
Quoting slider (Reply 55): Well, if I were Obama, I'd offer a stern, strognly worded warning, draw a line in the sand, draw in again, give a verbal rebuke, and....oh, wait, he already did that.....disregard.
No, if you weren't Obama. Which reaction do you suggest? Bomb Tripoli to show'em? Burn some Qurans just because we can?
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 58): When will the west wake up and realise that this is how Muslims behave, as instructed by the Qu'ran.
This is just hate-speech. Just like you can't deduce Christian behaviour from the likes of Anders Breivik, you can't extrapolate from the actions of maybe 50 individuals to the nature of a world religion. It's silly really.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 58): I'm glad we're seeing an increase in provocation of the Muslim world
Yes, it may bring about the clash of cultures you so evidently hope for. Muslims aren't idiots, they will notice when they're being provoked for the sake of provocation. They'll be rightfully angry.
If the hate-preachers on their side prevail, and folks like you on our side prevail, then maybe we can escalate the situation.
Quoting slider (Reply 67): Teddy said it best when he advocated to walk softly and carry a big stick.
I can see carrying a big stick, but "walking softly" simply seems quite un-American to me.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
KBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 96 posts, RR: 8 Reply 81, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6844 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 55): It's not just a piece of cloth. It's our sovereignty. You are aware of what am embassy is, right?
Freedom of speech for thee, but not for me, right? You can insult us, burn our flags and we do nothing, but dare ANYONE whisper so much as a criticizm against their own prophet and it's rioting, murders, storming embassies.
Check yourself, pal. You've no idea who I am, and I know intimately well of what I speak. But we beg for MORE funerals by bowing, cowering and not standing up with strength. If we were strong in the first place this wouldn't have happened. But we have our Apoligizer in Chief who continues to enable this sort of thing. That so-called "Arab Spring" is working out splendidly isn't it?
And maybe you can go placate the grieving families of Ambassador Stevens and the others before you make such a cowardly comment.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 83, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6782 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 80): Which reaction do you suggest?
If it were up to me, I'd pull out of the Middle East region as a whole, including closing all U.S. Embassies. It seems to me that 90% of those Mid-East are not even interested in fighting against terrorists. You know why? They fear by fighting terrorists will involve more deaths. Well, guess what.... By those countries who don't fight the terrorists and bow to them are still letting people get killed anymore.
So, what's the point in having U.S. troops in the region if the Mid-East countries have ZERO desire to fight terrorism?!
Those countries who feel that the terrorists are the greatest thing since sliced bread that will bring them security and protection are only kidding themselves and are going to be in a huge rude awakening sooner or later. I say we just let the Mid-East countries figure their own crap out since they seem to think that having terrorists are what they need. They dont need the west.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 84, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6787 times:
What i am hearing now, is that the producer of the movie is an Israeli-American citizen. The film cost of 5 Million was covered by 10 Jewish persons. The men behind the scenes pushing this movie are Coptic Egyptian who have a feud for years against Islam in general and Egypt.
My question, after seeing the movie, it is as bad as if few children in 5th grade did have a project to do for school, terrible acting, false information, lighting and scenery are childish, what was the interest of those people producing the movie? It will never make money. So the only thing it comes to my mind is deliberate provocation.
I as a Muslim refuse the way some Muslims reacted, killing is not the answer, the problem are some act by there hearts not there heads. Shame on them.
[Edited 2012-09-12 10:23:49]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 85, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6762 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): So the only thing it comes to my mind is deliberate provocation
Just as the movie The Last Temptation of Christ was provocation. Christians complained but did not go out damaging property and killing people.
I understand the you condemn the actions taken by the radicals but there need to be more like yourself that arrest and prosecute the radicals and prove to the rest of the radicals that you are not going to stand for that kind of behavior anymore!!
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 86, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6738 times:
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13): By inciting violence they simply confirm in the eyes of many that Muslims are irrational and full of hate.
...yeah, but there may be more than a little truth to that impression.
Quoting pu (Reply 14): My god, do you accept any responsibility for yourself and American foreign policy?
That's one knee-jerk reaction! Granted US foreign policy has bred many bad things, but this was not one of them. These were muslims reacting the way their 'religion' tells them to because of people expressing themselves on Youtube.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27): I find it hard to respect a 'religion' which inspires its adherents to unlimited violence at the first sign of offence. I saw one count of 109 verses of the Koran advocating killing of 'infidels'. Difficult to sell this "religion of peace" line, especially when the "peaceful" memebers of the faith are deafening in their silence whenever attrocities are committed in their name.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 26): In the end most of the issues would be prevented if people didn't do this kind of insulting things
Because you expect to be killed if you insult someone? Or better yet, do you expect to be killed because someone in your country insulted someone else?
This world needs more insults against the muslims, not less. More overt. More aggressive and more vicious.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Using freedom of speech to intentionally insult group of people isn't right.
Yes it is. In fact it is very important. Freedom of expression is a fundamental tool against control of thought. Not the other way around, as less perceptive individuals might imagine.
Quoting Mir (Reply 37): I only watched a little bit of that video, but even I found it offensive.
Meh, I watched it all, and it was boring and a work of complete amateurs. But not offensive.
Quoting na (Reply 45): Imho too many Muslims are too busy digging the grave of their religion to have time to use their brain. The western world is no muslim territory, period. Free speech is key, and a dubious film is a form of free speech, even if it is as stupid as this. That Mohammed had sex with minors, a pedophile after our law, is undisputed. How stupid to think that there is even a 1% chance to change that by killing Western representatives. Each such overreaction will cause more hatred in the West, too. One more 9/11 and the Arabic world is no more.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 58):
This is a phenomenal occurrence, happening on 9/11 to boot. When will the west wake up and realise that this is how Muslims behave, as instructed by the Qu'ran. Murdering because your feelings are hurt is a sub-human response and should be treated as such. At what point do extremist Muslim reactions become normal Muslim reactions.
Quoting thediplomat (Reply 69): 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of muslims are peaceful people.
No, not even close, since that goes against the very fundaments of the koran. Violence is a core principle, as is mysogeny and abuse.
Quoting thediplomat (Reply 76): Did 99.9999999% of Irish round up the IRA for twenty years? No - its always someone elses job.
The thing is, the IRA worked in the cover of the Irish people. It had the support of the people, it hid amongst the people.
As soon as public support evaporated in Ireland for the IRA, so did IRA evaporate.
Muslim terrorists exist because the whole community actively or passively supports them. Maybe 1-2% of muslims are peaceful. And that's just because they misunderstand their own 'holy' book and would probably be killed/raped by real muslims if they ever came in contact with them.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 87, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6733 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Muslims actually did mostly let non-Muslims in their area to keep their beliefs and traditions.
That is a joke right?
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): Coptic Egyptian who have a feud for years against Islam in general and Egypt.
Gee, I wonder why.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): My question, after seeing the movie, it is as bad as if few children in 5th grade did have a project to do for school, terrible acting, false information, lighting and scenery are childish, what was the interest of those people producing the movie? It will never make money. So the only thing it comes to my mind is deliberate provocation.
It was probably meant to provoke. I have seen a lot of films, comedy shows and cartoons that are offensive to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Europeans, Americans, you name it. Don't like it, flip the channel (or better yet, ignore a video made thousands of miles from where you live and where your state and religious laws do not apply).
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 89, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6729 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 86): Muslim terrorists exist because the whole community actively or passively supports them. Maybe 1-2% of muslims are peaceful.
Knowing your past views on Islam, but still i wonder from where did you come up with those numbers?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
We shouldn't be dealing with the Middle East, period. The majority of those countries cannot get on with the program. So why should we help them if they lack the commitment on the war against terror.
Remember, they need us more than we need them. And they're putting themselves in the position they're in now. So what's the point?
We dont need their oil.
Israel is just another country.
Commercial? Like what?
Pulling out our troops will lessen the American casualties.
We should really cut our losses here and focus on our own problems here at home, and get our economy back on track.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Hear it constantly, NEVER see it. Human lives were taken again today because of a YOUTUBE VIDEO. There is no argument here, there is no discussion anymore. This happens every day and it's outrageous and disgusting.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): I as a Muslim refuse the way some Muslims reacted, killing is not the answer, the problem are some act by there hearts not there heads. Shame on them.
I'm glad you feel this way and I hope there are more, but here's the thing: you have to either stand up or accept that people think your religion is horrible. If I were you I probably wouldn't do much standing up either, though, for fear of getting my head sawed off, so I get it. And, that having been said, if you're comfortable in your religion WHO CARES what anyone else says? I never understood why so many muslims give a crap about an a-hole pastor in Florida, a lousy soldier shooting a book, or a stupid YouTube video. Yes, America is full of idiots [just like everywhere else], but they have a right to their opinion and you CANNOT kill them for it!
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 93, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6696 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 80): When the Arab Spring came about, every commentator knew that it would bring instability and unrest to the region.
Even those on MSNBC??
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): What i am hearing now, is that the producer of the movie is an Israeli-American citizen. The film cost of 5 Million was covered by 10 Jewish persons.
That story doesn't hold much water, that film can't have been made for more than 100 thousand dollars and that is assuming someone got paid for doing this.
If this cost 10 thousand dollars, I'd be surprised. But nice knee-jerk anti-semitism there!!
Quoting pvjin (Reply 35): Muslims actually did mostly let non-Muslims in their area to keep their beliefs and traditions.
Ah no, that's a myth - and a pretty recent invention by some misguided islamophiles.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 89): Knowing your past views on Islam, but still i wonder from where did you come up with those numbers?
Don't worry, I counted you among that 1-2% of peaceful muslims.
BTW, where did anyone come up with the number 99.99% of muslims are peaceful? Did you ever question that number?
But seriously, by definition, if one is muslim - a true, by the book, fundamental muslim - one is violent. And if a real muslim can't find non-muslims to abuse or murder, then he goes at women and children.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 94, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6691 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90): At that is also a criminal act. If you know that your deliberate provocation will lead to killing then you are guilty by association.
I disagree, because that's much too vague a reason. A guy can make a video of his opinion and put it on the internet with no motive other than to get his opinion out there. You, then, disagreeing with it, can then say "obviously he's provoking me on purpose" and then you can justify killing him?!
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 95, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6692 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90): At that is also a criminal act. If you know that your deliberate provocation will lead to killing then you are guilty by association.
Insulting religions is not a criminal act in free countries.
Screw the book, individuals are to blame. I really don't care if the Koran preaches peace and love or death and destruction, it doesn't matter. How you act is what matters and people need to hold individuals and groups of individuals accountable and stop blaming books and beliefs which deflect from the real issue.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 97, posted (8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6676 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90): At that is also a criminal act. If you know that your deliberate provocation will lead to killing then you are guilty by association.
No. There is no law that prohibits people from exercising their rights. The fact that it leads to killing lies in mental problems of a small part of a population in countries thousands of miles away from where I choose to exercise my rights. If some people do not like what they see on youtube, they can take the "high road" and block it as some Muslim countries have done. Ignoring it also works fine.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93): That story doesn't hold much water, that film can't have been made for more than 100 thousand dollars and that is assuming someone got paid for doing this.
If this cost 10 thousand dollars, I'd be surprised. But nice knee-jerk anti-semitism there!!
The movie was made by Sam Bacile, an Israeli-American real-estate developer, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Bacile -- who wrote, directed and produced the film -- said he wanted to showcase his view of Islam as a hateful religion, the Journal reported, citing a telephone interview with him.
Bacile, 52, told the newspaper that to make the film, he had raised $5 million from about 100 Jewish donors, who he declined to identify. He said he made the two-hour movie over a three-month period last year in California, using about 60 actors and 45 crew members, the Journal reported.
No anti-semitism knee-jerking here.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93): Don't worry, I counted you among that 1-2% of peaceful muslims.
Coming from you, it is much appreciated, BTW i have hundred of Muslim friends who feel the same way as i do, and each one of them have also same number, so that 1-2% do not hold water either.
[Edited 2012-09-12 11:21:04]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5289 posts, RR: 52 Reply 99, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6666 times:
The Ambassador died from smoke inhalation while assisting in evacuating the compound. He wasn't killed per se. If he had a heart attack, you don't say he was 'killed'.
The Libyan Leadership has spoken...
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 30):
From the link provided by SOBHI51:
"Libyan Deputy Prime Minister Mustafa Abushagur said Stevens was "a friend of Libya, and we are shocked at the the attacks on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi."
"I condemn these barbaric acts in the strongest possible terms. This is an attack on America, Libya and free people everywhere,"
And:
"Libya's governing party condemned the attack as a "criminal and cowardly act" and vowed to "track down the perpetrators and to maintain the country's security and the safety and security of its guests," Libya's official LANA news agency reported."
Let the cooler heads prevail and not the nonsense seen and heard from the of Romney, Palin and Limbaugh looking to stoke the flames of war or war like retaliation.
BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3746 posts, RR: 14 Reply 100, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6663 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 25): Do we see this happening in Jordan, or Indonesia or many other countries with huge Muslim populations? No, those are civilized people.
Not to go off on a tangent, but Indonesia does have a problem containing violence by some of the more devout/fundamentalist Muslims against Indonesian Christians.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32): Killing an ambassador is an act of war, no? Let's hope this settles out quickly and those responsible are held accountable.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33): This action is nothing less than an act of war.
Quoting thediplomat (Reply 65): It is an act of war, if carried out by orders of the state
The Diplomat is right. It's also important to separate the two incidents because the responses by the respective governments is very different.
In Libya, this was not an act of war--the top three members of the Libyan government all formally apologized and condemned the attacks in the strongest of terms--there was no middle ground with them. Apparently, those on the ground in Libya report that a significant number of Libyan citizens are also protesting against those that carried out the violence.
In Egypt, the picture is much grayer. No one in Egypt's government has come out and condemned the attack/storming of the embassy, and the ruling political party has not cancelled protests against the video in spite of what just took place. That said, there are no reports that the storming of the embassy was ordered by the Egyptian government.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33): These murders cannot be justified by US foreign policy "supporting despots", and shame on you for trying
Murders cannot be justified period. And blaming US foreign policy "supporting despots" is better suited for a thread discussing why many Arab contries don't like America, not for a thread discussing a violent assault against our embassies.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 41): Se what happens when you overthrow a peaceful government with a savage one?Under Ghaddafi everything was fine
Umm...the average Libyan would probably disagree with you. Under Ghaddafi, Libya was stable because he ruled with an iron fist--and his government was not a peaceful government by any means. The current government isn't savage or uncivilized--it's unstable, completely understandable btw for a country two years after it overthrew a 40 year long dictatorship masking various ethnic and other social divides within the country.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 44): Where's freedom of speech now? If making a movie that insults group of people is OK then surely also burning humiliating a flag and replacing it with another one shouldn't be illegal either. It's just a piece of cloth.
There is a big difference between them burning a US flag outside embassy walls and storming the embassy. Storming the embassy isn't freedom of speech--its trespassing, at minimum, and a violation of property rights. I
Quoting mham001 (Reply 51): Libya will prove to be a colossal blunder and Obama will need to accept the blame for tagging along.
What was the alternative for Obama to do? Ghaddafi needed to go--he was a tyrant, and the people were demonstrating how much they despised him by waging a rebellion against his rule. The U.S. would have looked horrible if they looked the other way while Gaddafi slaughtered civilians, and otehr European countries lead the effort to support the rebellion. In fact, post-Gaddafi, libya is now the most pro-American country in the Arab world.
It amazes me to see the same people who are criticizing Obama for not supporting the Syrian rebels are the same people who criticized him for supporting the Libyan rebellion.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 56): And unfortunately hunger of oil is what keeps United States getting involved in these regions.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 102, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6641 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 101): My point is, if you deliberately provoke people knowing very well the way they will react, then you a part of the problem.
If you're punching someone in the face, yes. If you're having an opinion, no. Not at all.
Let me ask you this: are you able to justify murder like this? What I mean is, does the reason behind the action factor into your opinion, or are you against this regardless of the "reason?"
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 103, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6636 times:
Quoting us330 (Reply 100): And OPEC countries only account for just over one third of our total oil imports
That has nothing to do with it, though I will point out that 1/3rd is a LOT. OPEC is powerful because it can regulate the cost of our oil, even oil we pump out of EBF, Kansas. It's why closing the straight of Hormuz would cause a major spike in fuel prices. Does much of OUR oil go through the straight? No. Does much of the WORLD'S oil? Yes, absolutely. We're all interconnected and until nobody depends on OPEC, we have to continue this ridiculous facade.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 104, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6643 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 102): Let me ask you this: are you able to justify murder like this? What I mean is, does the reason behind the action factor into your opinion, or are you against this regardless of the "reason?"
I am against violence in any form or shape. But there is others from all religions who do not share my ideas.
No i can not justify murder, but knowing how other people feel from the continues attacks on there religion and there limited education i am not surprised.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Although I do get your point, I cannot agree with it, sorry. If I had to choose between limiting the rights of people in western countries or some Muslims growing thicker skin, I would choose the latter. I do not see why we would want to limit our freedoms simply because someone thousands of miles away may be offended. This kind of trivial cause and violent effect behavior you describe is either seen in small children, criminals or savages. Take your pick.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 104): But there is others from all religions who do not share my ideas
I will believe that when I see mobs of Indians storming embassies whenever a cow is slaughtered in Texas or mobs of Catholics calling for the death of cartoonists because their priests are presented as pedophiles.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 106, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6618 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 105): This kind of trivial cause and violent effect behavior you describe is either seen in small children, criminals or savages. Take your pick.
Ignorant, barbaric people describe them better, i am sorry to say.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 107, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6606 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 106): Ignorant, barbaric people describe them better, i am sorry to say.
On that I agree fully! And keep in mind that I do not judge those people for being offended, I do not agree with the violence that comes with it. A peaceful protest with sound arguments would have gone a long way on this issue.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 108, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6600 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 104): I am against violence in any form or shape. But there is others from all religions who do not share my ideas.
No i can not justify murder, but knowing how other people feel from the continues attacks on there religion and there limited education i am not surprised.
I don't see any "continued attacks." Some A-hole's opinion is not an attack or a provocation. Storming a sovereign embassy and murdering the ambassador is an attack. A video on youtube with what amounts to NO views is not.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 109, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6567 times:
Quoting us330 (Reply 100): What was the alternative for Obama to do? Ghaddafi needed to go--he was a tyrant, and the people were demonstrating how much they despised him by waging a rebellion against his rule. The U.S. would have looked horrible if they looked the other way while Gaddafi slaughtered civilians, and otehr European countries lead the effort to support the rebellion. In fact, post-Gaddafi, libya is now the most pro-American country in the Arab world.
It was clearly documented at the time that the whole "uprising" began at the instigation of Islamists. And without the help of the US, the Euros would not had done what they did.
Quoting us330 (Reply 100): It amazes me to see the same people who are criticizing Obama for not supporting the Syrian rebels are the same people who criticized him for supporting the Libyan rebellion.
Not here, although it would be satisfying to see an ally of Iran fall, we have no need to worry about every person in the world. They are intent on killing themselves one way or another, matters not to me.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 110, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6553 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93): That story doesn't hold much water, that film can't have been made for more than 100 thousand dollars and that is assuming someone got paid for doing this.
If this cost 10 thousand dollars, I'd be surprised. But nice knee-jerk anti-semitism there!!
Just mentioning that this film was made or funded by Jewish individuals is not anti-semitism.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 111, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6545 times:
One of the dead officials reported that the Libyan guards were outside snapping pictures.
On Tuesday, Sean Smith, a Foreign Service Information Management Officer assigned to the American consulate in Benghazi, Libya, typed a message to the director of his online gaming guild: ”Assuming we don’t die tonight. We saw one of our ‘police’ that guard the compound taking pictures.” http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/vilerat/
Try not to take this as an insult because you have the opportunity to help the rest of the world understand you better. This is the part many non-Americans don't understand: today on the streets of America around 50 Americans will be killed by other Americans. About 17000 Americans are lost each year not to Muslims or terrorists, but to other Americans... and most of those are shot with a gun.
Isn't your far bigger threat stateside? Why so unhinged over one death overseas? Why does where this man was killed and who he was killed by cause such a passionate reaction, when you lose 1500 or so every month at home that generally cause nothing like the kind of outrage displayed towardss Libya/Egypt?
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 113, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6512 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 112): Isn't your far bigger threat stateside? Why so unhinged over one death overseas?
Well, we have so much crap to deal with at home why do we need a bunch of religious zealots making it worse?! And you do realize where all that violence occurs, right? It's in very specific parts of the country between very specific groups of people, i.e. gang wars.
Our problems are our business, and I am obviously outraged by the violence in this country, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. You're honestly saying that I should feel like, oh I dunno, 9/11 wasn't a big deal because some bangers shot each other in Chicago? Get a clue!!
Domestic violence on the streets of American cities has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with this.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6298 posts, RR: 6 Reply 114, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6512 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 99): The Ambassador died from smoke inhalation while assisting in evacuating the compound. He wasn't killed per se. If he had a heart attack, you don't say he was 'killed'.
So if I light a home on fire and the people inside that house die I did not kill them? What kind of statement is that, blowing something up and killing people because you blew something up is murder. And actually yes, if I did something illegal that caused someone to have a heart attack I most certainly can be charged in killing that person.
U.S. Marines are on the way to the consulate. I imagine the people who did this won't even think about messing with them. They can't be that stupid right?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 118, posted (8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6447 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 117): Not when a certain group plays the game correctly or refuse to even play the game.
So you want to blame whole countries for the acts of Al-Quaeda ? Countries we have supported in their moves to over throw dictators, in the name of democracy?
Seriously?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 120, posted (8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6428 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 98): Coming from you, it is much appreciated, BTW i have hundred of Muslim friends who feel the same way as i do, and each one of them have also same number, so that 1-2% do not hold water either.
Curiously it holds as much water as claiming 99.99% of muslims are peace loving individuals or that islam is a religion of peace.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 110): Just mentioning that this film was made or funded by Jewish individuals is not anti-semitism.
Heh sure, it was just mentioned for no reason what so ever.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7788 posts, RR: 22 Reply 121, posted (8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6409 times:
Quoting casinterest (Reply 118): So you want to blame whole countries for the acts of Al-Quaeda ? Countries we have supported in their moves to over throw dictators, in the name of democracy?
An ambassador has been murdered and an embassy ransacked - something that cannot go unresponded to. The new Libyan government has apologized for allowing the attacks to happen, and have promised to hunt down and prosecute those responsible. I would very much like to believe they are sincere and am willing to give them the benefit of time to sort out their mess (and Islamists in their midst IS their mess), and forgo sending in our marines to do it for them.
I would remind you that the whole reason that we went to Afghanistan is that the Afghan government at the time refused to prosecute or extradite those responsible for 9/11.
The question is, what if a month or two from now, it appears that the Libyans are not serious about finding those people? Do another Afghanistan? I don't think any Americans are fond of that idea. But maybe a Pave-Blue on the roof of their Justice Ministry would get their attention.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2657 posts, RR: 12 Reply 123, posted (8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6387 times:
I have no sympathy for anyone involved in this. Any person from any other country that makes excuses for this is lying to themselves. No ambassador from the US has ever been killed since 1979. If it was their diplomat they would fell the same way. We should never have helped the Libyans or the Egyptians, but now that we have they are responsible for bringing these terrorists to justice.
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 124, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6349 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 83): If it were up to me, I'd pull out of the Middle East region as a whole, including closing all U.S. Embassies.
No disagreement from me. Go ahead and do that. The thing is that this isn't in America's interest, so they're not going to. But I'd be the last person opposing such a move.
No, quite correct, look it up.. explains a lot of why Islam was so successful in the past.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 86): Muslim terrorists exist because the whole community actively or passively supports them. Maybe 1-2% of muslims are peaceful. And that's just because they misunderstand their own 'holy' book and would probably be killed/raped by real muslims if they ever came in contact with them.
Phew, that should almost make me scared to go out. I live in a predominantly Muslim quarter, it's pretty peaceful here - what's happening? Are they all hiding their true nature? Are 99 of 100 people I meet secretly waiting to stab me in the face?
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93):
Quoting Rara (Reply 80):
When the Arab Spring came about, every commentator knew that it would bring instability and unrest to the region.
Even those on MSNBC??
No idea, I don't watch American television. Consensus back then was that the Arab Spring was a great opportunity for the region, was long overdue, but bore the potential of unrest and a strengthening of Islamism. I can't recall anyone seriously disagreeing with that interpretation, so I don't guess NBC had a different position.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 101): My point is, if you deliberately provoke people knowing very well the way they will react, then you a part of the problem.
Correct. The right to provocation is valuable, but procovation itself is not.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 119): It's a start. Countries like Pakistan, for example, has zero interest in fighting terrorism. They harbor them.
They have plenty of interest in fighting terrorism that threatens them, and care somewhat less about the rest. Very similar to Western countries in that regard.
Quoting Rara (Reply 80): Which reaction do you suggest? Bomb Tripoli to show'em?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 121): But maybe a Pave-Blue on the roof of their Justice Ministry would get their attention.
It's nice to see that after the supreme fuck-ups that were Iraq and Afghanistan, the American reflex to "just bomb the place" is still alive and well. Doesn't really matter where the bombs hit, the real culprits get the message, eh?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3267 posts, RR: 6 Reply 125, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6343 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 121): An ambassador has been murdered and an embassy ransacked - something that cannot go unresponded to. The new Libyan government has apologized for allowing the attacks to happen, and have promised to hunt down and prosecute those responsible.
Watching CNN news. The Obama Administration is stating that "justice will be served" on the attackers. The Benghazi consolate attack was a coordinated attack, organized and executed by Al Qaeda - which had posted to militant forums on the internet a video in which its leader, Ayman al-Zawahri, acknowledged the death in an American drone strike in June of his Libyan deputy, Abu Yahya al-Libi, and called on operatives to aveng the death. Al-Qaeda is definitely reconstituting itself in nations where there have been recent overthrows of dictatorships (Yemen, Sudan, Libya, Egypt, and so on) have which have led to power vacumns and general lawlessness in the wake of the "Arab Spring". Al-Qaeda is actively perverting the "Arab Sping". And they cannot kill a well-liked American Ambassador without a severe military retaliation from the United States.
Furthermore, the producer of the anti-Islamic film, "Sam Bocile" seems to be a fake identity - law enforcement officials cannot currently locate this individual, who apparently resided in California. Regardless, they need to be questioned to determine their role in this tragedy. Actors in the film stated to law enforcement that they had no idea what the film was about. The producer was quoted as stating publicly that "Islam is a cancer".... pretty explosive talk, in my opinion.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 127, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6306 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): It's nice to see that after the supreme fuck-ups that were Iraq and Afghanistan, the American reflex to "just bomb the place" is still alive and well. Doesn't really matter where the bombs hit, the real culprits get the message, eh?
Hah yeah, exactly these kinds of stupid actions in the pasts have boosted worldwide terrorism very much. People who have promoted these kinds of actions can completely blame themselves for all the attacks that happen.
That would just make them to die as martyrs. Better to put them to prison instead.
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): They have plenty of interest in fighting terrorism that threatens them, and care somewhat less about the rest. Very similar to Western countries in that regard.
This is exactly true too. In places that are not strategically important or have no resources genocide and all other sick stuff can happen without western world doing anything.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 130, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6298 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): Phew, that should almost make me scared to go out. I live in a predominantly Muslim quarter, it's pretty peaceful here - what's happening? Are they all hiding their true nature? Are 99 of 100 people I meet secretly waiting to stab me in the face?
Are you actively provocating them? Do you think your life would be safe if you were?
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): No idea, I don't watch American television.
That was a rhetorical question, because the commentators there hailed the 'arab spring' as a beginning of an era of peace, democracy and flowers for all.
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): Correct. The right to provocation is valuable, but procovation itself is not.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 131, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6291 times:
Quoting Rara (Reply 124): No, quite correct, look it up.. explains a lot of why Islam was so successful in the past.
I do not need to look it up. Yeah, Muslim empires were tolerant to non-Muslims (and only to Jews and Christians), as long as they paid their dhimmi tax and accepted the muslim supremacy. Lets not also forget the blood tax that non-Muslims were paying by means of their own children who were being converted and taken away. Were they more tolerant than Christians in the Middle Ages? Yes, I will give you that, Christianity was the shining beacon of intolerance back then. But to show them as tolerant to other religions is a bit misguided. They were only tolerant because they had to, governing a land where the indigenous population is not Muslim needs some compromise.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3267 posts, RR: 6 Reply 132, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6282 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 121): The question is, what if a month or two from now, it appears that the Libyans are not serious about finding those people? Do another Afghanistan? I don't think any Americans are fond of that idea. But maybe a Pave-Blue on the roof of their Justice Ministry would get their attention.
Unfortunately, it may be getting to the point that the United States needs to negotiate with host countries to allow 24/7 armed drone CAP's over US embassies--at least in many Islamic countries.
Let the populations of these nations know that armed U.S. drones are always flying overhead, watching, and let the locals know that anyone climbing the outside walls of an American embassy gets a hellfire missile aimed at their head.
Things will calm down REAL fast. They need to know that the United States has the military capability, and will USE IT.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 133, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6279 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 131): They were only tolerant because they had to, governing a land where the indigenous population is not Muslim needs some compromise.
Also claiming they were tolerant is a misguided romaticism made up in the late 19th century. They were brutal, severely injust and tyrants - but as you say, they were a ruling minority, they had to (for practical reasons) to show some compromise.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 134, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6269 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 133): Also claiming they were tolerant is a misguided romaticism made up in the late 19th century. They were brutal, severely injust and tyrants - but as you say, they were a ruling minority, they had to (for practical reasons) to show some compromise.
Well they were very tolerant when compared to Christians of that and also much later times.
In my opinion Christianity, Islam, Judaism, all are equally violent from their nature. Then there are other cultural, social and governmental things that have made violent extremists more rare within these other religions.
Thankfully there are still some good religions in far east...
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 135, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6256 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 121): would remind you that the whole reason that we went to Afghanistan is that the Afghan government at the time refused to prosecute or extradite those responsible for 9/11.
The question is, what if a month or two from now, it appears that the Libyans are not serious about finding those people? Do another Afghanistan? I don't think any Americans are fond of that idea. But maybe a Pave-Blue on the roof of their Justice Ministry would get their attention.
A month or two? The Government is working on it, and they will set up security. This isn't like Afghanistan that told us to piss off.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 119): It's a start. Countries like Pakistan, for example, has zero interest in fighting terrorism. They harbor them.
You oversimplify the scenerio in Pakistan. It's a country of a couple hundred million and the Government is cooperating with us.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5289 posts, RR: 52 Reply 140, posted (8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6191 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 114): So if I light a home on fire and the people inside that house die I did not kill them? What kind of statement is that, blowing something up and killing people because you blew something up is murder. And actually yes, if I did something illegal that caused someone to have a heart attack I most certainly can be charged in killing that person.
And incredibly nonsensical analogy.
If you did as you've written. You deserve to be charged with murder.
The Ambassador wasn't there at the time of the attack.
Context is everything as is factual presentation.
The Ambassador died of smoke inhalation while rescuing employees.
The Ambassador was shot and killed while rescuing employees.
The Ambassador was hacked, mutilated and beheaded while rescuing employees.
Phrasing is everything.
As some headlines are reading now - US Suspects at Planned Attack vs US condemns Religious Mob Attack.. it doesn't changed the violence of the attack or deaths..but the perception and retaliation are a world apart.
When the presence of not-so levelheaded individuals are in the audience of listeners, this is how lynchings, vigilante justice and unnecessary escalated violence is initiated. The world is not Disneyland, if it were we wouldn't need armies or police forces. As the world's population increases, so does it's share of the ignorant, the rapist, the killers, the religious fanatics (christian, muslim and others)...it is man's savage nature.
No one is giving the attackers a free pass as no one should give this fake filmmaker and Quran burning Pastor as pass..this is the EXACT effect they wanted to achieve... just as missionaries 100 years ago would offend locals and then the US military to come rescue them (the Boxer Rebellion comes to mind).
How 'facts' are presented, omitted or misrepresented will have a direct effect on the mindset back home. The wisest decisions are made by those with the best detailed information..not those with the least amount of it.
Quoting flymia (Reply 114):
U.S. Marines are on the way to the consulate. I imagine the people who did this won't even think about messing with them. They can't be that stupid right?
Marines are attacked in Afghanistan each day, the sending in Marines and drones are necessary to protect any additional Americans from harm is necessary but the 'they won;t even thing about messing with them' type of braggadocio ...is childish again in expression, thought and totally uncalled for. This is no game and minds that think in such manner should be far removed from decision making.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 123): No ambassador from the US has ever been killed since 1979. If it was their diplomat they would fell the same way. We should never have helped the Libyans or the Egyptians
A Global Leader never thinks on this level, they must think with great depth than 'we shoulda done this or not done that'..even if no trigger in the US were initiated (the disrespecting attention needing Quran burning pastor and this fake filmmaker) attempting to cause global religious retaliation. It's now just a matter of time before some religious nut here goes and shoots up a mosque or fire bombs one. I'm certain it'll make some secretly few better because of the need to fulfill some 'we got them back' emotion.
Again, the US is the world's policeman, like it or not... some would rather it be the Russians, the chinese and many in their nations wish it were their country. But it is the USA who is doing pretty good job considering the endless streams of madness flowing about. And because of that, we do wear a target on our backs....and yet we MUST soldier on without knee-jerk and hair-trigger responses.
BN747
[Edited 2012-09-12 15:19:55]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
I hope nothing... because, inevitability, it will only lead to more violence, for. both parties
Quoting Mir (Reply 34): The only relevant troubles America has here is that its embassies were stormed. And yes, that is entirely to blame on foreigners.
Um, it generally takes "2" two tango.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 41): Se what happens when you overthrow a peaceful government with a savage one?
It comes back to bite you on the ass !
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 41): Under Ghaddafi everything was fine...it seems as it if where only yesterday he and Condoleeza Rice were exchanging gifts...
And that's where the bullshit begins with US foreign policy... completely and utterly all over the place.
Quoting Rara (Reply 49): Yap, a bunch of thugs and murderers declared war on you. What now?
What can they do, zippo !
They are already a spent force, and about to pull out of several countries where things have "not gone according to plan"
Quoting slider (Reply 67): The VERY LAST thing we should do is apologize or sit on our hands.
Ok, so what to you propose. Go back in with guns and tanks shooting everywhere.. good move !
Oh I think it dose. You win more friends with honey then vinegar.......
Quoting casinterest (Reply 88): Yeah, just a few problems with that . Oil , Israel, Commerical and Military trade. It's the reason we have diplomats.
Commercial, is the odd word out, don't you think ? Israel is ugly enough to look after there own, especially after ALL the blind support and how many billion of $$$$$$ from the US over decades .
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84): What i am hearing now, is that the producer of the movie is an Israeli-American citizen. The film cost of 5 Million was covered by 10 Jewish persons.
Ahhhhh, well well well.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 95): Insulting religions is not a criminal act in free countries.
Maybe, but it sure as hell stirs things up... way to go.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93): But nice knee-jerk anti-semitism there!!
What... because the film was made by an Israeli. How is that aniti-semitism ??????
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 121): The question is, what if a month or two from now, it appears that the Libyans are not serious about finding those people?
Well you should have thought of that before you went in there all gun oh.... too late now, that damage is done and your looking at the consequences of your actions... not good uh ?
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5289 posts, RR: 52 Reply 143, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6104 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 141): Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
No one is giving the attackers a free pass as no one should give this fake filmmaker and Quran burning Pastor as pass
What?! Are you equating a terror attack to making a film or burning a book? Please tell me you don't consider these to be equal.
How that conclusion is reached is beyond me.
It is a religious mob if spontaneous as perviously thought
It is 'a terrorist attack' if it was 'a planned premeditated attack by organized forces..which the Libya case is starting smell like. And if the Egyptian leadership doesn't speak up soon..it too may hint at a premeditated action.
The filmmaking and Quran burning by 'this particular party' had a motive, agenda and you're seeing evidence of it now...just as they wished.
Free Speech isn't always 'free' in some cases there's a price..thsi time it's an Ambassador and his staffers.
'Phrasing' .. is everything.
Bn747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 144, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6102 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 142): Maybe, but it sure as hell stirs things up... way to go.
Which is predominantly a reflection upon those being stirred.
If a child is crying on an airplane and a stranger kills the child, do you partly blame the child for "stirring" the man up? The reaction of attacking an embassy over a youtube video is just as, if not more, absurd than this hypothetical scenario!
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 145, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6104 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 143): The filmmaking and Quran burning by 'this particular party' had a motive, agenda and you're seeing evidence of it now...just as they wished.
Yeah, and nobody should give a crap about their motive because they're ASSHOLES. This is exactly why it's a problem. Muslims need to learn to write off assholes as assholes and not take out their "rage" on innocent people who are in NO WAY connected with them!
Okay, let's try this, then. Do you consider the "attack of a sovereign embassy by a spontaneous and angry mob which results in loss of human life" to be equal to burning a book or making a film?
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 147, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6053 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 120): Heh sure, it was just mentioned for no reason what so ever.
It was on CNN and Wall street Journal, i did not made it up.
SO when you say
Quoting Asturias (Reply 93): But nice knee-jerk anti-semitism there!
This was uncalled for, i do not have any anti-Semites feeling against the Jews or any other religion in the world. If you go back and go through all my postings you will find out this is true.
Hoping for an apology from you.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
You only stated what is being widely reported in every paper Ive read.
It's amazing isn't it, that each and every time Israel is called/mentioned, the anti Israeli crap has to start.
I wonder how this thread would go if it were the Israeli ambassador that was killed ????
From the SMH quote....
"The film, said to have been created by an Israeli-American, Sam Bacile, was slick in its way but its humour was crude"
So why did he make it, and why was it bankrolled by a bunch of US jews
Would love someone here to shed some light on this little question ????
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 125): Furthermore, the producer of the anti-Islamic film, "Sam Bocile" seems to be a fake identity - law enforcement officials cannot currently locate this individual, who apparently resided in California. Regardless, they need to be questioned to determine their role in this tragedy.
Now, isn't that strange...hiding behind some fake identity. I wonder if the other individuals will be named. The ones that bank rolled the entire episode.... just to stir things up !
Well then, its no wonder the U.S is in the position it now finds its self.
And as much as I hate to admit it, Australia could find out that we will be dragged into this mess as well, if it isn't already to late
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 155, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5993 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 153): I would not hold my breath waiting for a honest answer.
So you already have an idea of what an "honest answer" would be, and it's obviously something grossly negative otherwise nobody would have any problem saying it, but you're NOT anti-semitic?
I for one. Because i am sure that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam hoping for this reaction, i do not put the blame on them100%, those radical Muslims were stupid enough to take the bait.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 154): Ever heard of Simon Rushdie.... he had the guts and fortitude to use his real name.
Ever heard of Molly Norris?! She had to change her name and go into permanent witness protection because radical islamists THREATENED HER LIFE for drawing mohommed!! Are you entirely clueless?!?!
Second time i am accused of that, now either prove it or shut your mouth, easy, no?
Weird when somebody ask for an explanation he is accused of being an anti-Semite.
[Edited 2012-09-12 16:35:21]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 159, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5985 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 156): I for one. Because i am sure that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam hoping for this reaction
Assume it was. Let's say his ONLY purpose was to insult Islam and provoke a reaction. Why would you then support giving him what he wants?! Wouldn't you be better off just ignoring the stupid movie just like I ignore stupid movies I don't like?
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 160, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5987 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 150): So why did he make it, and why was it bankrolled by a bunch of US jews
Would love someone here to shed some light on this little question ????
Because he chose to. Him and the people funding it must have an issue with Islam if that is what you are asking, I think it is pretty clear. So, what is the point of your question?
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 161, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5970 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 159): Assume it was. Let's say his ONLY purpose was to insult Islam and provoke a reaction. Why would you then support giving him what he wants?! Wouldn't you be better off just ignoring the stupid movie just like I ignore stupid movies I don't like?
I think i responded to that, if you read my posting till the end, but let me remind you
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 156): do not put the blame on them100%, those radical Muslims were stupid enough to take the bait.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 163, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5964 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 155): So you already have an idea of what an "honest answer" would be, and it's obviously something grossly negative otherwise nobody would have any problem saying it, but you're NOT anti-semitic?
It could also be facts, but why let them get in the way.
Why dose it have to be something grossly negative otherwise nobody would have any problem saying it ?
Sometimes the truth hurts and people don't want to no about it
Quoting lewis (Reply 160): So, what is the point of your question?
Petrol and fire don't mix, that's the point.
Quoting lewis (Reply 160): Because he chose to. Him and the people funding it must have an issue with Islam if that is what you are asking, I think it is pretty clear.
Where are the leaders in the US condemning this action.... strangely silent no ?
Oh wait.... its the land of free speech and free everything.... So say what you want without any consequences !
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 164, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5970 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 161): I think i responded to that, if you read my posting till the end, but let me remind you
Ah, I see that now. So, just so I understand you, you're saying that the filmmaker is stupid for putting it out (because he should know that these kind of responses exist), but you are not saying the response is justified simply because the filmmaker should have known better. Correct?
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 166, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5938 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 164): Ah, I see that now. So, just so I understand you, you're saying that the filmmaker is stupid for putting it out (because he should know that these kind of responses exist), but you are not saying the response is justified simply because the filmmaker should have known better. Correct?
No what i said is
[quote=SOBHI51,reply=156]I for one. Because i am sure that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam hoping for this reaction, i do not put the blame on them100%, those radical Muslims were stupid enough to take the bait.
Maybe this time you will understand better, the stupid people were the radical Muslims. Clear now?
Now how about proving that i am an anti-Semite? I dare you and Asturias.
[Edited 2012-09-12 16:52:28]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 168, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5934 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 163): Where are the leaders in the US condemning this action.... strangely silent no ?
What kind of condemnation do you expect? Do you want videos of Mohhamed to become illegal in the US? Should that guy face penalties? According to which law?
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 163): Oh wait.... its the land of free speech and free everything.... So say what you want without any consequences !
You got that right, although there are consequences. There is libel and there is also yelling "bomb" at an airport. The fact that a video, cartoon or book cause mayhem in some countries is more of a problem with them than with the video, cartoon or book. At some point you have to draw a line. If something offends you, tough.... you can choose to ignore it.
So, in the land where you live, is it illegal to make a film about Mohhamed or draw a picture of him?
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 172, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5925 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 162): Ah, an article from 2006, an op-ed piece. Nice try.
No try at all really, just a little look on the net, brings up endless pages and pages about US sentiment and how its viewed by the rest of the world.
Its pretty clear and lays out the reasons very reasonably. I think there are some good points made. Pity, they don't use some of the methods given more.
Quoting N766UA (Reply 165): Speaking of facts, you going to address the Molly Norris issue?
I know very little of all the facts surrounding Norris, so I prefer not to comment, sorry !
Quoting N766UA (Reply 165): Hey, last I checked none of us even know who this filmmaker is, so how could any of us possibly speculate? We don't have any facts.
Don't by it sorry. I'm sure the US authorities have the very person identified, and the others who funded the movie
Quoting N766UA (Reply 167): I didn't say you were, guy, I asked. Note the question mark.
Why even ask the question ?
You are starting to sound like a politician dose, squirming in his seat after being "vague" with the truth.
Quoting lewis (Reply 168): What kind of condemnation do you expect?
Anything really.. better than silence
Its about time, someone in the US said something, stirring the pot is not helpful to this delicate situation is it ????
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 173, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5921 times:
Looking at the CNN pictures and piecing together the timeline the State Dept is giving, the one thing glaringly missing is Libyan police. US personnel were holed up for 35 minutes waiting for Libyan backup. The CNN pics show people strolling around the compound in tshirts and shorts taking photographs. While the fires were still burning.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 174, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5918 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 171): Yes, I did, but if you insist then I believe you! Doubting a statement and accusing someone of something are different things.
Not really, it is the way you phrased it and the NOT in capital letters.
If a person says to another person (Are you stupid) that's more of an accusation than a statement.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 175, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5917 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 172): I know very little of all the facts surrounding Norris, so I prefer not to comment, sorry !
No, of course you wouldn't, you just make blanket statements like "in America, don't give me that!" without knowing about something as obvious and important as this case.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 172): Don't by it sorry. I'm sure the US authorities have the very person identified, and the others who funded the movie
You're asking us, airliners.net members, to speculate. This isn't a CIA forum.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 176, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5909 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 174): If a person says to another person (Are you stupid) that's more of an accusation than a statement.
You're right, but I just said I believed you. You can choose not to believe me if you want, but that'd be ironic considering that's what you're mad at me for.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 177, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5912 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 172): Anything really.. better than silence
Its about time, someone in the US said something, stirring the pot is not helpful to this delicate situation is it ????
You do have a point. I read somewhere that an announcement from the Cairo embassy had a condemnation of sorts, even though it did not come from the President himself, who seems too preoccupied with deflecting Romney's attack at this point. I could see a condemnation if the issue was brought to someone's attention without the usual rioting bs. For me, as soon as the crowd stormed the embassies, causing damages, injuries and deaths, they lost the "right" (if you can call it that) to any condemnations coming from the US.
On the other hand, what could a condemnation really offer? Would it appease the crowd? These people have serious mental issues, a condemnation would mean nothing to them, let alone that the timing of these attacks show that they were not so much about the video, this was just the pretext.
I am surprised though at how much you are willing to shift the blame towards a video (seriously, think about it) and not towards an angry and guided mob that attacked and looted.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 179, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5895 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 178): No i am not mad at nobody, but hurt of being accused of something i am not. No irony there i can see.
Fair enough, then I apologize! The way it was spoken about, it seemed to me, was deliberate in mentioning the "Jewish" element behind the film. That's why I felt it was on purpose. That said, you have defended yourself enough that I believe you. I don't think someone who was particularly anti-Semitic would insist he wasn't so many times!
You must understand, though, that when someone from a predominantly Islamic part of the world brings up the topic, it's many times not in a factual manner, but rather a negative one!
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12337 posts, RR: 12 Reply 180, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5885 times:
I wonder if some politicians, or prosecutor looking for votes, would consider hate crime charges as to producers and the sick 'preacher' in Florida and others involved in this film. Something should happen to them from civil lawsuits by families of those killed, or face serious financial and social penalties for their hate.
As some commentators have noted, this is the dark side of our international high speed Internet and social media, as something legal and protected by free speech can end up in a place where it is offensive, illegal and not done.
Dozens of Libyans were killed, many saved Americans. One real question is was this an organized attack by al-Quada or perhaps new anti-western/anti-American groups, and they intentionally attacked on the anniversary of 9/11.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 181, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5878 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 180): Something should happen to them from civil lawsuits by families of those killed, or face serious financial and social penalties for their hate.
I would have no problem with these guys being sued by, for example, the ambassador's family. You can't levy "penalties for hate, " though, not unless it aggravated another crime, such as murder.
But yes, I would agree that if you act stupidly and someone gets hurt, you are liable! I haven't seen this movie, though, so I can't say he was acting stupidly for sure. I mean, it could either be a ridiculous propaganda film that really does "stir the pot," as some have said, or it could just be a perfectly legitimate opinion.
No problems, here.
The truth of the matter that i knew about the film makers since yesterday via Facebook, did not want to post anything till it was confirmed by CNN and the Wall street Journal so i do not face those accusations.
Anyhow, no hard feelings whatsoever. I would like to apologize myself for asking you to shut up.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 183, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5860 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 182): Anyhow, no hard feelings whatsoever. I would like to apologize myself for asking you to shut up.
Haha thanks, accepted, and likewise. Ultimately, I think we agree on the vast majority of this subject. Either way, dialogue and discussion is important, and it's a shame something can't be done to encourage it on a larger scale.
The thing that bothers me the most, I think, is that people think that movies like these are a big deal. I mean, an ambassador died over a video online that I guarantee you 99% of Americans would never see.
Fair enough, but how do you define "acting stupidly"? There is a slippery slope there. If everyone who feels offended by something said, drawn or videotaped starts attacking embassies, companies or people, then I guess in the end you will not be allowed to talk about anything that involves another race, religion, nation...
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 185, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5846 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 184): Fair enough, but how do you define "acting stupidly"? There is a slippery slope there.
Well, I guess that's where the civil trial would have to come in. Let me be clear, I do not advocate in any way criminal penalties for freedom of speech issues, but like I said, if this filmmaker goes out and makes some over-the-top hateful movie and someone innocent dies, I can kind of understand the family of the innocent person suing the filmmaker. That's all I'm saying.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14352 posts, RR: 26 Reply 186, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5842 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 163): Where are the leaders in the US condemning this action.... strangely silent no ?
You want the US government to give a thumbs up or thumbs down to everything Americans say to keep foreigners happy? They don't have to like our freedom of speech, but the government does not have to answer for things Americans say.
The government does not condone hate speech but must protect it. Furthermore, the government should not tolerate attacks on Americans.
Quoting lewis (Reply 184): I doubt that would stick. Hate crime means that a crime is actually committed.
There are the "imminent lawlessness" provisions, but I doubt this would be applicable in a criminal case. A civil case might be a different story, but that's an awfully slippery slope to go down.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3746 posts, RR: 14 Reply 187, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5838 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 109): And without the help of the US, the Euros would not had done what they did.
Disagree with you. The Euros were the first actors--and Obama was actually in danger of being left behind. It was the French and the Germans that spearheaded the effort to assist the Libyan rebellion. The U.S. only came in later and followed their lead.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 116): It's a world economy, and world interests. We can't stick our heads in the sand without getting our butts chewed off.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 188, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5840 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 183): The thing that bothers me the most,
It bothers me also, same as the book of Suliman Rushdi, that book is the worst i have ever read, nothing to do with his insults but his way of writing, if nobody said anything i bet he would not sold 100 copies. But what can i say, again those people should think with there heads not there hearts. One day i hope.
May he rest in peace and all who lost there lives in this barbaric action. Just heard that 10 Lybian security guys lost there lives defending the consulat.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7460 posts, RR: 5 Reply 189, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5837 times:
Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 2): The infamous burner of q'urans from Florida is said to be behind the film........
It would be most fortunate if he was the same yo-yo. That guy is dangerous in terms of the violence he can generate.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7): The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions.
That was released BEFORE the violence stated. Regarding the film that has caused the problems, it was appropriate BEFORE the violence started to apologize for the rabid idiot that made and released that film. It would be a huge embarrassment if we actually supported the film.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7): What about the misguided indivduals that stormed the walls and entered the compound? You know, the sovereign territory of the United States?
By now we should understand that when someone in this country does something beyond the pale in terms of degrading the Muslim religion there will be those in that religion that will respond with violence.
Quoting pu (Reply 8): hat is wrong with apologising? With critisising hate speech against Islam?
Nothing, The problem will be those who believe that the apology was for the attacks on the embassies and not the film.
I would not understand it, not at all. Same way I would be baffled if 9/11 victims' families sued the US government because, through its presence and actions in the ME, made some Muslims angry who then decided to attack the towers. I do not believe in using that logic of cause and effect to justify irrational, uncivilized and violent actions, especially when the cause in the equation is a video, cartoon, or an idiot burning a book on the other side of the globe.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 191, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5824 times:
I just read on Facebook a great article. In short it says, if somebody in the West produced a movie dedicated to insult Islam and The Prophet Mohammed, the proper response should not be anger and bloodshed but we can make a movie about how great and peaceful religion Islam and Prophet Mohammed were. We have the funding needed, studios, actors etc.... Lets do it now.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 192, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5815 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 156): Because i am sure that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam hoping for this reaction
Why would anyone hope for this sort of reaction? I'm not buying it. I could believe that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam, but then Islam just needs to deal with it rather than deciding it's appropriate to burn embassies and kill people.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3022 posts, RR: 17 Reply 194, posted (8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5807 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 192): could believe that the whole idea behind the movie was to insult Islam, but then Islam just needs to deal with it rather than deciding it's appropriate to burn embassies and kill people.
Agree with you.
Quoting Mir (Reply 192): Why would anyone hope for this sort of reaction?
Because this usually how fanatics react every time when they face similar situation.
Quoting lewis (Reply 193): How feasible would it be though, if the depiction of the Prophet is forbidden?
Depicting his face is forbidden, if you ever watched the movie (The message) they avoided that cleverly. The irony of that movie, Mohammed AlAkkad, the director of the movie and a dear friend, was himself killed in a terrorist attack in a hotel in Amman, Jordan while waiting for the arrival of his daughter.
[Edited 2012-09-12 18:02:30]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 196, posted (8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5773 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 191): I just read on Facebook a great article. In short it says, if somebody in the West produced a movie dedicated to insult Islam and The Prophet Mohammed, the proper response should not be anger and bloodshed but we can make a movie about how great and peaceful religion Islam and Prophet Mohammed were. We have the funding needed, studios, actors etc.... Lets do it now.
I really wish that would be the reaction we saw most often.
Quoting lewis (Reply 190): I would not understand it, not at all.
To be clear, I'm not saying I'd hope they'd win their lawsuit.
Me too! These kind of reactions, however, don't exactly foster peace and understanding. If, for example, I write an article explaining exactly how I feel, for the benefit of understanding my perspective, I need to be sure I won't have my life threatened! I don't think I have any particularly offensive viewpoints, but who's to say anymore? It's scary!
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10243 posts, RR: 40 Reply 199, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5705 times:
The Islamic 'rebels' in Benghazi were backed and financed by the CIA and Mossad, Hillary Clinton, Soros, and the Neocons. They collectively wanted Khadaffi out same as they wanted Egypt's Pres. Mubarak out. (We are similarly arming Islamic extremists and Al Qaeda in Syria).
Remember, we armed and backed these Islamic Benghazi rebels within the last year.
Twitter:
US Embassy in Yemen has been attacked by 5000 protesters, breached, smoke rising from compound
Mark L. Hamilton @marklucasham
#Protesters storm US Embassy in #Yemen. Praying for my fellow diplomats.
Please twitter search YEMEN, to follow live events
Breaking on RT now
Yemeni police open fire as hundreds storm the US embassy in Sanaa, casualties reported
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 200, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5672 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 130):
Quoting Rara (Reply 124):
Phew, that should almost make me scared to go out. I live in a predominantly Muslim quarter, it's pretty peaceful here - what's happening? Are they all hiding their true nature? Are 99 of 100 people I meet secretly waiting to stab me in the face?
Are you actively provocating them? Do you think your life would be safe if you were?
What a strange question. I don't go about actively provoking people. If I did, I would expect that same reaction as from any other population group with a large percentage of young males, comparatively low income and comparatively little education.
Some US posters here see the events in Libya as a provocation and advocate bombing the country in return. How do you judge their reaction? Not really peace-loving either, are they?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6298 posts, RR: 6 Reply 201, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5668 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 140): And incredibly nonsensical analogy.
You have a source for he was helping evacuate the building? All I have seen is that he went to a safe room and the safe room filled with smoke so he then went to the roof where the smoke killed him. Smoke is usually what kills people in fires from airplanes to homes. They caused the smoke by trying to blow the place up, they murdered him and anyone else who died of the smoke.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 140): Marines are attacked in Afghanistan each day, the sending in Marines and drones are necessary to protect any additional Americans from harm is necessary but the 'they won;t even thing about messing with them' type of braggadocio ...is childish again in expression, thought and totally uncalled for. This is no game and minds that think in such manner should be far removed from decision making.
Games? All I am saying is I am confident the Marines will be able to defend themselves and U.S. buidlings.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 199): Yemeni police open fire as hundreds storm the US embassy in Sanaa, casualties reported
Saw this earlier today. At least the Yemeni police did a decent job. In Iran there were protest at the Swiss embassy where the U.S. does their limited relations in Iran. From what I read seemed like the protest were peaceful which is fine by me. Protest all they want just don't start destructing property or hurting people.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 182): The truth of the matter that i knew about the film makers since yesterday via Facebook, did not want to post anything till it was confirmed by CNN and the Wall street Journal so i do not face those accusations.
What is now also confirmed is that the origins of the filmmaker are unknown and Sam Bacile does not exist.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 203, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5685 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 186): but the government does not have to answer for things Americans say.
If you are out there on the world stage and everyone's looking.... you must behave.
Quoting N766UA (Reply 175): You're asking us, airliners.net members, to speculate. This isn't a CIA forum.
Hasn't stopped you form having an opinion all the way through this thread has it now.
Quoting lewis (Reply 177): I am surprised though at how much you are willing to shift the blame towards a video (seriously, think about it) and not towards an angry and guided mob that attacked and looted.
Because we have seen time and time again, through the writing of various books, the burning of Korans in the US and other countries, and, that these types of actions, really spur fanatics on, so any commendation of the "offending" perpetrators, needs to be long, hard and loudly spoken for all to hear.
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 180): I wonder if some politicians, or prosecutor looking for votes, would consider hate crime charges as to producers and the sick 'preacher' in Florida and others involved in this film. Something should happen to them from civil lawsuits by families of those killed, or face serious financial and social penalties for their hate.
Lets wait and see, but I hope there is some action. And that especially the makers and those involved, are fully exposed to the world.
Quoting Mir (Reply 197): They could just be immature idiots. In fact, I find that scenario to be the most likely one.
Then they should be locked up for there own safety !
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 199): Remember, we armed and backed these Islamic Benghazi rebels within the last year.
And how many other tyrants around the place, has the U.S backed, only to have the relationship implode years later, with devastating outcomes, not only for the US, but for the entire world.
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 205, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5629 times:
Quoting us330 (Reply 187): Disagree with you. The Euros were the first actors--and Obama was actually in danger of being left behind. It was the French and the Germans that spearheaded the effort to assist the Libyan rebellion. The U.S. only came in later and followed their lead.
Yes they were first but all the time relying on the US (NATO) to back up their sudden new found bluster. They did not have the logistics, equipment or even the ammunition to do their own no-fly zone. Pathetic really.
us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3746 posts, RR: 14 Reply 206, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5625 times:
Quoting EDKA (Reply 202): So lets not jump on the "jewish filmmaker or funding" bandwagon... until we know for sure
Sobhi was only the messenger for a fact that was being widely reported by the media (i saw it in several sources). He wasn't reporting it firsthand himself, and presumably is not a reporter as his full-time job, so let's all back off and talk about the more substantive stuff relevant to the thread, like the Yemen embassy being attacked, or the substantial difference in the responses by the respective host governments for these embassies.
High ranking Yemeni and Libyan officials have all apologized and condemned the attacks in the strongest of terms, whereas Mr. Moursy in Egypt has yet to call out those who stormed the embassy, and instead focused his attention on the film.
What is hard for me to comprehend is why this film is such a big deal to the fundamentalists--it seems like they were looking for any excuse to attack the embassies, and it didnt matter that no one in the West had ever heard of this film (or likely would ever see it) before the attacks took place.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 207, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5627 times:
Quoting EDKA (Reply 202): Quoting N766UA (Reply 179):
The way it was spoken about, it seemed to me, was deliberate in mentioning the "Jewish" element behind the film.
well of course it was... you only need to look at this reaction
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 142):
Ahhhhh, well well well.
but again, i am not surprised....
Wouldn't be the first time Israel was "behind" some mysterious event now would it ??
This just out in the Oz papers. (SMH) Apparently, "a militant Christian activist, Steve Klein, who supposedly worked as a consultant on the film, as saying that Bacile was not Israeli or Jewish and that his name was a pseudonym."
Apparently, Klein, seems to have some inside knowledge, as he states in the article, unequivocally, that Bacile is not a Jew or from Israel. !
So how come he knows so much.... CIA, where are you. The plot thickens indeed !
Quoting mham001 (Reply 205): Yes they were first but all the time relying on the US (NATO) to back up their sudden new found bluster.
Since when is the US, NATO ?
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Rara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 1826 posts, RR: 3 Reply 208, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5621 times:
Quoting us330 (Reply 187): Disagree with you. The Euros were the first actors--and Obama was actually in danger of being left behind. It was the French and the Germans that spearheaded the effort to assist the Libyan rebellion. The U.S. only came in later and followed their lead.
French and Brits rather. We stayed out of it pretty long and even abstained on the UN no-fly-zone vote, which drew a good bit of criticism from our allies.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 209, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5619 times:
California man confirms role in anti-Islam film
Quote: LOS ANGELES (AP) — The search for those behind the provocative, anti-Muslim film implicated in violent protests in Egypt and Libya led Wednesday to a California Coptic Christian convicted of financial crimes who acknowledged his role in managing and providing logistics for the production.
...
Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.
...
The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups, said Klein is a former Marine and longtime religious-right activist who has helped train paramilitary militias at a California church. It described Klein as founder of Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques.
It quoted Klein as saying he believes that California is riddled with Muslim Brotherhood sleeper cells "who are awaiting the trigger date and will begin randomly killing as many of us as they can."
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 210, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5609 times:
Why is it the the film was posted 2 months ago and it is only NOW becoming an issue. As it was said above "intelligent" people could just ignore it and all other religions have ignored films the demean their respective religions (at least they did not destroy property or kill anyone over them).
This is just ridiculous. Where are the police from these countries that they are not blocking the radicals from destroying the embassies since their leaders are condemning the attacks they should be doing something to stop them but that seems to be lacking as well.
It is said that there are peaceful Muslims out there but we do not see any of them standing up for other religions right to practice in their own ways. Its all lip service to me.
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 211, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5608 times:
Quoting casinterest (Reply 82): Golf clap for the neocons. who want to rush into a religious holy war with those looking to start one.
Just remember. We didn't start this. We didn't ask for it. We don't want it. They started it. Their bastardized ideology of hate and violence since inception has. History is the best teacher here.
Quoting pu (Reply 112): Isn't your far bigger threat stateside? Why so unhinged over one death overseas?
That's a fair question. I mean, Chicago is a warzone and they're slaying themeslves in the streets wantonly. It's tragic. It really is. But it isn't a matter of sovereignty. This is...it gets to the core of us as a larger nation, beyond drug-addled gang-bangers (although I would also contend that those sociological failures theaten our existence too, but that's a question for a different thread).
Indeed. Nothing else to say. The Arab Rage Boys once again flexing their muscles against anyone and anything--US and Israel most notably--because their prophet can't explain to them why they live in relative squalor, why they are submissive pawns in the larger game and they react like petulant children.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 191): I just read on Facebook a great article. In short it says, if somebody in the West produced a movie dedicated to insult Islam and The Prophet Mohammed, the proper response should not be anger and bloodshed but we can make a movie about how great and peaceful religion Islam and Prophet Mohammed were. We have the funding needed, studios, actors etc.... Lets do it now.
Well, you've talked a great game. I nominate you. Make it happen.
You're always so deliberate about parsing your phrases and words but you've never been able to answer to the now-seemingly infinite number of queries I've made about the lifetime history of bloodshed, conquest, anti-Semitism and barbarism from islam. You sit in the mushy middle, arms length denouncing the 'small minority' who do this, verbally making yourself feel comfortable, but never stepping up beyond that.
So here you go. Put your money and your sweat where your mouth is.
Until then, thou doth protesteth too much. As usual.
Meanwhile, the dogs bark and caravan rolls on. Another day of Islamist violence to wake up to like every other damn day.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 212, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5562 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 211): Just remember. We didn't start this. We didn't ask for it. We don't want it. They started it. Their bastardized ideology of hate and violence since inception has. History is the best teacher here.
You are too rady to clasify the acts of a few as the actions of the many.
If it is Libyan policy to attack the US consolate, then Libya will pay. However the consolate has existed in Libya for years without isuses.
I think security should be reviewed and process invoked. but to run off shooting without thinking or working for diplomacy is not in this country's best interests.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5318 posts, RR: 47 Reply 213, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5557 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 211): Another day of Islamist violence to wake up to like every other damn day.
And I'm sure you think our country is very violent? Look at how many deaths we've caused.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 214, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5559 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 199): The Islamic 'rebels' in Benghazi were backed and financed by the CIA and Mossad, Hillary Clinton, Soros, and the Neocons. They collectively wanted Khadaffi out same as they wanted Egypt's Pres. Mubarak out.
Let me remind you that the British and French were the driving force to get Khadafi out of power. In fact the French flew the majority of CAS missions over Libya. Do you have any evidence that Mossad backed the rebels there? Or for that matter George Soros? By the way neocons and Soros are usually two words you don't use in the same sentence.
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Well said.
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