Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Is There Not More Public Outcry About Gitmo?  
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1950 posts, RR: 31
Posted (2 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

As another uncharged and likely innocent prisoner died in custody at Guantanamo Bay this week (likely suicide), it amazes me that NIMBYism and military bureaucracy has led to a complete failure to move ahead in resolving the issue. The left-wing press abroad has been very critical of Obama for failing to carry through on his campaign promise to close the camp, but, while I think the pressure should be kept on the president, his promises were not simply abandoned. They were met with near-complete opposition in congress and followed up with unwillingness to confront the problem from the judicial branch as well. I wish Obama hadn't folded, but clearly the problem goes much beyond him. (Of course, had the camp been moved and no longer-term solution found, that would not have been much if any improvement.)

I understand that for some inmates, the situation is extremely complex, delicate, and in some ways unprecedented--that when you are fighting insurgents who are not in uniform, it is hard to adhere to things such as the Geneva Convention. But you can't just cop out and stoop to the tactics of totalitarian or theocratic regimes. Then we simply justify the claims of our enemies.

The fact remains that many of the people in the camp were simply rounded up by Pakistani forces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (or in many cases because of ransoms, personal enmities, etc.), and have been held for a decade without trial. Many, too, such as the recent death, were held despite the lack of any compelling evidence against them, only because the current situation in Yemen was considered a risk in discharging them.

It is in many ways an international shame. Of course, many of the governments of our allies who criticize the camp have quietly supported or contributed to the process that has led to the situation, but that isn't an excuse.

There must be some better solutions.

[Edited 2012-09-11 21:27:33]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

I think it's symptomatic of a larger problem, a "war" that's essentially stateless and endless (so we're fighting terrorism. When have we won? Will terrorism sign a surrender document?) isn't something we've made rules for yet. Calling them PoWs doesn't work because they're not really serving an army. Really the closest and most apt description is criminals awaiting trial, but no one seems to want to face up to that. Frankly I think it's the best thing we can do; making them prisoners of a "war on terror" elevates the guilty beyond what they deserve, and leaves the innocent in a legalistic limbo that doesn't live up to the standards of a democratic state.

User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

We're comfortably numb, that's why.

Many outrageous things have occurred in the last decade or so and nobody bats an eyelid. we don't care anymore because most of us are on Xanax or Prozac, like the last generation was on vitamins. Our finer emotions have devolved to a series of wants - gluttony ("The Gastro Movement"), material stuff and cool experiences ("Lifestyle"). "Me" is winning over "We"...

Nobody cares about Gitmo, due process is for Americans. Nobody cares about drones killing children and wedding guests, it's collateral damage of people who are not like us. When our own house is burning - economy in shambles - hard to focus on global stuff.

"1984" + "Brave New World" = 2012!


User currently offlinePacNWJet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

My 2 cents: A lot of Americans take their cues from widely distributed news sources such as the broadcast and cable news television channels, big city newspapers, syndicated news services, and news aggregator websites. Through what they emphasize as headline/top of the news stories these sources can influence what many Americans think is important. If "mainstream" news sources made the Guantanamo issue an important news story, I think a lot more Americans would care about it. But as long as it is not reported on heavily by the mainstream news, most Americans will not give it much thought. I could be wrong.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Without being facetious and conspiratorial, but I wonder what kind of benefits we get from the prison. It was made a big issue in the 2008 campaign but it was quietly not closed (and something as unpopular as Gitmo and having the freedom not to get criticized by his subordinate generals, as Commander-in-Chief, the President could have easily shut it down.) I think there is some behind the scenes stuff that is super beneficial to fighting the war and only after seeing it himself did the President change his mind.

Now I personally disagree and think it should be only one of many military things to be shut down, but I think there is a lot more that meets the eye in Gitmo.

And as far as Americans are concerned, it really doesn't bother them so they do not object (that's what I think)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3277 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Bush is no longer President. Objectively, this is the largest change that occurred as the public outcry became a whimper and the headline news articles became "also ran" stories.

I'm not trying to oversimplify the situation or to make excuses for Bush's mistakes. However, can someone point to another factor that would explain this change in public attitude and media coverage? Specifically, can someone point to another change that was large enough and obvious enough to be appreciated by the masses (as would be necessary to explain the status of "public outcry"?

In fairness to the original poster, he did as "where is the public outcry?" and not "what happened to the public outcry?". However, I do feel that the public outcry was much stronger pre-2009 (which would go a ways toward explaining the current lack of outcry).



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

I'd say the political situation in the US is the cause, the you're with us or against us attitude means that the people who want Guantanamo closed don't want it at the cost of losing the next election.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

You really want to know? This is a hypotehetical question right?

Bush POTUS: Gitmo BAD. Bush bad.

Obama POTUS: Gitmo....what's that? /whistles past the graveyard


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4625 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Without being facetious and conspiratorial, but I wonder what kind of benefits we get from the prison.

Gitmo in terms of the rights and due process we expect as American Citizens = "A Very Bad IDEA"

However years of legal wrangling has not set up any better alternative for Suspected Terror suspects. The advantage of Gitmo is that they can deny rights and due process, which works more convieniently for the war on terror. the down side, is that the treatment is highly harsh, on prisioners, gulity, innocent, or just held over.

Getting rid of Gitmo is a difficult problem without an alternative. Information can be gained from these suspects that may help get rid of other terrorists. Holding them for years makes them obsolete withing thier command structure. I even suspect some of the the suspects are picked up just to create enough noise to help gather intelligence on the command structures of the organizations they are in.

Gitmo needs to go, but when and how is a political game with a lot of problems.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2089 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

One aspect that's underestimated is how unhelpful other countries were in solving the Guantanamo problem. Obama asked us whether we could take a couple of (presumably innocent) inmates, and we flat-out refused helping out. The same happened in other countries. I think that's a disgrace. It shows that we're big when it comes to criticising the human rights violations of the Bush administration, but when we can play a role in alleviating them and helping those who got caught in the process, we suddenly become very disinterested.

Obama failed, but he failed partly because countries that could have done him a huge favour took the easy way out when push came to shove.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
Obama failed, but he failed partly because countries that could have done him a huge favour took the easy way out when push came to shove.

How are our detainees Germany's problem? Wouldn't Germany holding some of these inmates (without a trail and all) be just as bad as holding them in Cuba? I don't get what you're saying here



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

I don't know what he's talking about exactly, I know France took all the French prisoners and tried them when there was some evidence to do so.

I think most of the prisoners that can't be tried for lack of proof can't be send back to their countries either, so the idea was to ask other countries to take them as political refugees.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2089 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
How are our detainees Germany's problem? Wouldn't Germany holding some of these inmates (without a trail and all) be just as bad as holding them in Cuba? I don't get what you're saying here

The detainees aren't Germany's problem, but we would have done well to be part of the solution. After all the US is one of our most important allies and friends. In the case of Guantanamo, Obama didn't have the possibility to solve the problem himself, so as a friend, we could have lent a hand and take some of the detainees. We chose to ignore the request, however, argueing (like you said) - "well it's not our problem, keep them for yourselves".

The thing is that Obama couldn't have brought the prisoners to US soil, particularly not if they have been wrongfully held and their rights have been trampeled on for years. They would be eligible to sue the US government, and armies of lawyers would have greeted them at the border with open arms. Nor could he repatriate them, because some would have been pursecuted in their home countries and would have refused going there (e.g. the Chinese Uyghurs). Besides if you would have just set them loose somewhere in the Middle East, with everything they had experienced and the treatment they had received from Americans, they would have radicalized and become terrorists in a heartbeat. "Guantanamo release kills five American tourists", that's the kind of headline that can decide an election.

I'm not talking about keeping them imprisoned in Germany, but to offer them a place to stay and the opportunity to start a meaningful life. It would have cost the government a couple million Euros and a few votes, sure, but it would have been a friendly gesture to a nation that has done a lot for us, and it would have helped (or rather: been the only way) to wipe that disgrace Guantanamo off the face of the earth.

[Edited 2012-09-13 11:12:16]


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting n229nw (Thread starter):
I understand that for some inmates, the situation is extremely complex, delicate, and in some ways unprecedented--that when you are fighting insurgents who are not in uniform, it is hard to adhere to things such as the Geneva Convention.

Actually what you mean is that it is unnecessary to adhere to the Geneva Convention.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 1):
When have we won? Will terrorism sign a surrender document?

Probably never. They won't surrender, just be stifled and maybe fade away. But if they fade away, they'll probably be replaced by someone else.

Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
Nobody cares about Gitmo, due process is for Americans.

Or people not captured in America. The Constitution does not apply to foreigners on the other side of the world.

Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
Nobody cares about drones killing children and wedding guests, it's collateral damage of people who are not like us.

Let's be frank about this: we'd all rather have a drone accidentally blow up a wedding in Afghanistan than have a terrorist intentionally blow up a wedding here. It's unfortunate, yes, but not as unfortunate as dead Americans.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Actually what you mean is that it is unnecessary to adhere to the Geneva Convention.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Or people not captured in America. The Constitution does not apply to foreigners on the other side of the world.

No Constitution and no Geneva convention is great and all, but do you have anything at all to propose instead? By your own admission this is an open-ended conflict, to the point of never ending. Are we going to just keep accumulating suspects and enemy combatants in detention sites where we can keep them without oversight or hassle for eternity? Because whatever the value of an American life versus another in the grand balance of national security, the United States was founded on the notion of unalienable rights to life and liberty, not for just Americans but from creation itself, and to take away that of others in so blatant disregard for any legal structure whatsoever is an injustice that makes hypocrites of us all, and ultimately undermines the rights we enjoy as citizens at home.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6104 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3129 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Most people don't really care. I don't give a damn what happens to the people in Gitmo and neither does anyone else I know. We are concerned about about keeping our jobs, making sure we have money to retire on, and keeping our communities from going broke. Maybe some 20 year old University student who really has no responsibilities cares, but I doubt average people care at all.



Quoting slider (Reply 7):
Bush POTUS: Gitmo BAD. Bush bad.

I think there are so many lefties that hated Bush that anything he did was considered evil. If Obama does or did the same thing they think it is ok.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
I think most of the prisoners that can't be tried for lack of proof can't be send back to their countries either, so the idea was to ask other countries to take them as political refugees.

I bet there are people at Gitmo no country wants.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
I'd say the political situation in the US is the cause, the you're with us or against us attitude means that the people who want Guantanamo closed don't want it at the cost of losing the next election

Obama campaigned on closing Gitmo. So the people who voted for him didn't have a problem with him closing it because they expected him to. Oddly I don't hear people complaining about Obama not closing Gitmo. I think it is more to do with emocrat does it, it must be ok, but if a Republican does it is evil. We have that going on in Michigan now. The union activists at my work are campaigning for a change in the Michigan Constitution to guarantee collective bargaining. Last year some of the same people said that the state constitution should never be changed when the Republicans wanted to change something. So I guess it is ok to change the constitution when it suits your political ideology. The same goes for Gitmo; Obama ok and Bush evil. I have asked some Obama lovers why they aren't upset about him not closing Gitmo and they have said that Obama knows what he is doing he must have a good reason to keep it open. That is the same answer I gave when somebody asked me about Bush and Gitmo; it boils down to politics.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Actually what you mean is that it is unnecessary to adhere to the Geneva Convention.

The people at Gitmo are not the uniformed armed forces of a country. Even back in the "good ole' days" prisoners taken in the wrong uniform or no uniform at all were considered spies and could be shot. Back when some Germans came ashore, in WWII, up in New England and later in Florida they had uniforms on until they left the beach because if they were taken right away they would be considered prisoners of war not spies, which they were when they were caught out of uniform a few days to weeks later.

What ever happened to the young man who was an American that fought for the Taliban? That guy should have been shot for treason.

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
Obama asked us whether we could take a couple of (presumably innocent) inmates

what makes you think they were innocent?



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
Obama campaigned on closing Gitmo. So the people who voted for him didn't have a problem with him closing it because they expected him to. Oddly I don't hear people complaining about Obama not closing Gitmo.

What I'm saying is that they don't complain because they don't want Obama to lose votes over it, as Romney is even less likely to do it (and they didn't vote for Obama only on that platform promise anyway).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2873 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
Gitmo in terms of the rights and due process we expect as American Citizens = "A Very Bad IDEA"

You can say that again.

If these guys were American, this NEVER would have occurred.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
the down side, is that the treatment is highly harsh, on prisioners, gulity, innocent, or just held over.

Which is why the place should be shut down immediately

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
One aspect that's underestimated is how unhelpful other countries were in solving the Guantanamo problem.

Why should other countries have to accept responsibility for this cock up

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
The same happened in other countries. I think that's a disgrace. It shows that we're big when it comes to criticising the human rights violations of the Bush administration, but when we can play a role in alleviating them and helping those who got caught in the process, we suddenly become very disinterested.



Other Governments, right around the world, were facing a voter backlash if they accepted these captives, and rightly so.

Quoting Rara (Reply 12):
After all the US is one of our most important allies and friends.

Friends don't always agree on the same route. Again, this is the way its always been and will continue so.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Actually what you mean is that it is unnecessary to adhere to the Geneva Convention.

Geneva Convention..... Whats that again ?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Probably never. They won't surrender, just be stifled and maybe fade away.

Not on your life. There is an entire new Generation of baby Afghans and baby Iraqies, thanks to this war taking decades to accomplish its original goal (whatever that was again?) waiting to fill any vacant spots.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Let's be frank about this: we'd all rather have a drone accidentally blow up a wedding in Afghanistan than have a terrorist intentionally blow up a wedding here. It's unfortunate, yes, but not as unfortunate as dead Americans.

Wow. Frank is an understatement all right.
I would say that EVERY life is important, not one more than the other.
Accidentally blowing up a wedding party (as you put it) of innocent people is only go to aggravate the entire situation, and turn many more against the coalition forces, this is not what we are trying to do !

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 14):
Are we going to just keep accumulating suspects and enemy combatants in detention sites where we can keep them without oversight or hassle for eternity? Because whatever the value of an American life versus another in the grand balance of national security, the United States was founded on the notion of unalienable rights to life and liberty, not for just Americans but from creation itself, and to take away that of others in so blatant disregard for any legal structure whatsoever is an injustice that makes hypocrites of us all, and ultimately undermines the rights we enjoy as citizens at home.

Well said.

I think its like anything, after a while it losses momentum within the mainstream press, and the general populace forgets, and gets over taken by "other" more pressing matters.... like the next election



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Let's be frank about this: we'd all rather have a drone accidentally blow up a wedding in Afghanistan than have a terrorist intentionally blow up a wedding here. It's unfortunate, yes, but not as unfortunate as dead Americans.

Neither is acceptable. But it is reasonable to have higher expectations on a civilized country's ability to behave civilized.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7210 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
It was made a big issue in the 2008 campaign but it was quietly not closed (and something as unpopular as Gitmo and having the freedom not to get criticized by his subordinate generals, as Commander-in-Chief, the President could have easily shut it down.) I think there is some behind the scenes stuff that is super beneficial to fighting the war and only after seeing it himself did the President change his mind.

So the electorate needs to carefully weigh the word of those on the outside looking in before voting.

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
I think that's a disgrace. It shows that we're big when it comes to criticising the human rights violations of the Bush administration, but when we can play a role in alleviating them and helping those who got caught in the process, we suddenly become very disinterested.
Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
Obama failed, but he failed partly because countries that could have done him a huge favour took the easy way out when push came to shove.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
How are our detainees Germany's problem?
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Which is why the place should be shut down immediately
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Why should other countries have to accept responsibility for this cock up
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Other Governments, right around the world, were facing a voter backlash if they accepted these captives, and rightly so.

So when the USA decided that they would solve the issue by returning the detainees to the countries where they were found the rest of the world should keep quiet and allow the USA to solve the cock up that they created. Instead, the rest of the world get's on their moral bandwagon and proclaim that would be inhuman, dengeroues, etc. etc. etc. and the current administration who were not yet in office joined the fray.

So Gitmo has to remain as open source of cannon fodder for any anti-USA push, and the best that the American's can do now is to suck it up. Imagine if the USA allowed the detainees onto the mainline, tried them in civilian courts, were unable to convict them and had to set them free, if any got involved in crime and were subsequently shot and heaven forbid killed, the conspiracy theorist would have a field day.

Gitmo right now is a dam*** if you do dam*** if you dont.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
What ever happened to the young man who was an American that fought for the Taliban?

Gave a guilty plea and is serving twenty years.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Geneva Convention..... Whats that again ?

The thing that doesn't apply to terrorists.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
I would say that EVERY life is important, not one more than the other

Not the the US government, which is of course firstly concerned with American interests. If the government cares more about an Afghan than they do an American, there's a problem.

Of course you don't have these things happen on purpose, but it's a war and in every war bad things happen to people who don't deserve it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Accidentally blowing up a wedding party (as you put it) of innocent people is only go to aggravate the entire situation, and turn many more against the coalition forces, this is not what we are trying to do !

I'm honestly not interested in why someone is fighting against America. I have no more respect for a terrorist trying to avenge a family member than one who just doesn't like America.

Quoting cmf (Reply 18):
Neither is acceptable.

Either event is tragic. It's just a little more tragic when Americans die, which is the unspoken doctrine of a lot of what's happened for the last sixty years.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 14):
No Constitution and no Geneva convention is great and all, but do you have anything at all to propose instead?

I think you have to deal with things on a case by case basis.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Of course you don't have these things happen on purpose, but it's a war and in every war bad things happen to people who don't deserve it.

What's the difference between terrorism and an unwarranted and undeclared war killing lots of civilians ?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
I'm honestly not interested in why someone is fighting against America. I have no more respect for a terrorist trying to avenge a family member than one who just doesn't like America.

Wasn't Bush avenging 9/11 ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2089 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
Most people don't really care. I don't give a damn what happens to the people in Gitmo and neither does anyone else I know. We are concerned about about keeping our jobs, making sure we have money to retire on, and keeping our communities from going broke. Maybe some 20 year old University student who really has no responsibilities cares, but I doubt average people care at all.

Whether true or not, that's a terrible thing to say really. America's attraction, the reason why so many countries have considered it a role model, has always been not only wealth and power, but also that it was seen as a force of good, as a beacon of liberty and justice. It's sad to see that not only is this fading into a memory, but more so that Americans are standing on the sidelines and applaud as the country betrays its core values and everything it stood for in the past. Guantanamo isn't just a concentration camp on a remote island, it's the symbol for this betrayal. You may not care, but the world watches rather closely, and people draw their conclusions.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
what makes you think they were innocent?

I think it's common knowledge that not everyone at Guantanamo is a terrorist, and a number of people is known to be detained without any proper reason, they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Why should other countries have to accept responsibility for this cock up

Not responsibility, but a helping hand in clearing it up.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):

Other Governments, right around the world, were facing a voter backlash if they accepted these captives, and rightly so.

Exactly, so those governments have missed a bloody good chance to do the right thing for once - lose some voters, help people that otherwise can't be helped.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Friends don't always agree on the same route. Again, this is the way its always been and will continue so.

In this case, friends not only disagreed, we explicitely warned America against going down that route. They did it anyway, they screwed up, and now instead of being all smug about it, we could take the high road and help them getting out of it anyway.

After WW2, Americans could well have told us "serves you right for following Hitler, now sort it out yourselves". Instead they sent millions of Dollars our way only years after the end of the war. Not devoid of self-interest, but still convinced that it was the right thing to do.

Quoting par13del (Reply 19):
Gitmo right now is a dam*** if you do dam*** if you dont.

Yes, that's what's truly devilish about the Neocon's legacy. Once Pandora's Box of torture and and human rights violations has been opened, there's almost no way to close it again. Injustice spawns more injustice. Hate breeds hate. There's a president who's truly appalled at what his predecessor did, and yet he simply can't do anything about it. Try as he might, he can't put the genie back into the bottle. That's what makes the September 11th attacks seem so eerily well thought-out. They intended to make America abandon her principles, they succeeded, and the legacy is still with us and will continue to be for a long while to come.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7210 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
In this case, friends not only disagreed, we explicitely warned America against going down that route. They did it anyway, they screwed up, and now instead of being all smug about it, we could take the high road and help them getting out of it anyway.

After WW2, Americans could well have told us "serves you right for following Hitler, now sort it out yourselves". Instead they sent millions of Dollars our way only years after the end of the war. Not devoid of self-interest, but still convinced that it was the right thing to do.

It is what defines them as a nation.

Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
They intended to make America abandon her principles, they succeeded, and the legacy is still with us and will continue to be for a long while to come.

Well, America did put their military on the line to assist in the liberation of Libya, when ethnic cleansing was inflicted on muslims they responded there also, yet the notion that they are anti-muslim because they support Israel still rings out today.
It is a complex country but I don't think they have lost too much, the political system seems to ensue that extreme views do not tarry for too long.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The thing that doesn't apply to terrorists.

US refuses to acknowledge them as terrorists... Also refuses to acknowledge them as prisoners of war...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Either event is tragic. It's just a little more tragic when Americans die, which is the unspoken doctrine of a lot of what's happened for the last sixty years.

It is not more tragic when American die. It is equally tragic. Not recognising that is part of the problem.


25 windy95 : Because Bush is no longer President
26 DeltaMD90 : I really, really hate the partisanship in this country, but I have to say, I really see no other explanation (but I'm sure I'll hear many now lol)
27 stasisLAX : Americans are much more worried about foreclosures on their homes, unemployment problems, offshoring of jobs, the national debt, the latest price hik
28 TheCommodore : Sorry, Not good enough ! If we know, that they "just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time" them let them bloody well go ! This is the
29 Aaron747 : That is true from a humanist point of view. But governments are not charged with promoting everyday philosophy - they are charged with looking after
30 BMI727 : Not as far as the US government or I am concerned.
31 Post contains images n229nw : There's something to be said for that. But honestly, I think it is less about modern changes and more about the eternal aspects of human nature. I do
32 BMI727 : It's not devaluation as much as it's acceptance of the reality that a) the American government is, and should be, firstly concerned with American int
33 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : If Americans are truly willing to accept this, it is a just war (IMO.) That's why we shouldn't make the decision to go to war lightly, it has to be f
34 Newark727 : I recognize that, as a government of the citizens of the United States, that our leaders have to recognize and accept the failings and injustices comm
35 cws818 : You don't think that avoiding the deaths of innocent civilians is in the American interest? Indeed! His not recognizing that it is equally tragic is,
36 BMI727 : ...but that's not necessarily a good thing. The public will see that and have an emotional reaction, but you cannot have decision makers making decis
37 cws818 : I understand what you are saying and agree with your broader point. However, your phrasing does your point of view a great disservice. You come acros
38 BMI727 : Shit does happen and war is nothing if not being cavalier about the loss of life. There's nothing moral about terrorism, war, or politics. It's just
39 DeltaMD90 : I'd argue knowing the destruction of others is something to consider in a rational decision. I agree, the US government is there to protect the inter
40 PHX787 : I'mma jump right in here It's a lot more complex than people think. The compound is on Cuba's property, more or less. It's a US Naval base in a countr
41 Darksnowynight : The problem with that is that the folks who make these decisions need to know what's going to happen as a result too. It's been obvious that this rea
42 cws818 : Vaclav Havel, the acclaimed President of the Czech Republic, rightly referred to, and characterized politics as, "the art of the possible." You might
43 cws818 : You do realize (I hope) that "sentences" are determined by courts of law? Now, I am not so left-wing as to believe that military tribunals are not co
44 BMI727 : It is, but it's just one consideration. It's far too easy for an untrained public to only see the destruction. Seeing dismembered bodies on the news
45 Rara : Yes, and how do you suggest to do that? Give them a boat and a paddle? Drop them off somewhere in Afghanistan? Set them loose in Cuba? I agree. And y
46 Post contains images cmf : The difference is in the "errant drone". When we insist on revenge for every American killed what do you think the other side will require for everyo
47 DeltaMD90 : There is a huge difference in the emotional reaction of seeing dead terrorists and dead US troops... the latter images really put things in perspecti
48 BMI727 : ...then the next drone strike won't be an accident. The problem of collateral damage in war? That's a problem that unfortunately will never be solved
49 Post contains links flyingturtle : There's still the sobering list of people detained at Guantanamo because they possessed a digital Casio watch, which is supposedly used in bomb-making
50 falstaff : Maybe not everyone at Gitmo is guilty of being a terrorist, but you just can't assume they are all innocent either. That wasn't that long ago and not
51 scbriml : You're in a minority with that view. On multiple levels. How many of them have been found guilty of anything? How many? No, not even close. A signifi
52 Post contains images Rara : No of course not, I never said that. I'm sure that there is an unknown number of horrible people in Guantanamo who are terrorists and deserve to be j
53 par13del : A lot of records of events that occured during the Cold War are still hidden as confidential, one primary aspect of teh Cold War was the th US/NATO a
54 PHX787 : That's because these terrorists exist in a limbo of sorts - They're not a member of a military (IIRC the tribunals are reserved for conquered nations
55 DeltaMD90 : Well, as blunt as it's stated, I think it's a sobering truth we wouldn't want to believe. On your TV I'm sure they say "13 people were killed, includ
56 cws818 : They are in limbo. However, military tribunals don't exist only to try members of the military. Their use has been expanded to jurisdiction over enem
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Is There A Large Muslim Pop. In France? posted Fri Oct 16 2009 19:58:08 by FuturePilot16
Why Is Cannabis Not Given Free posted Sat Dec 3 2005 23:24:10 by BR076
Why Is Iran Not Allowed To Make Nukes? posted Sun Nov 21 2004 21:37:13 by Yak42
Why Is There Such Hatred Of The NY Yankees? posted Thu Oct 9 2003 23:17:43 by 727LOVER
Why Is Kazaa Not Working For Me posted Mon Jan 13 2003 05:25:48 by Jcs17
Why Is There Deleted Scenes On DVD's? posted Wed Dec 25 2002 09:21:22 by Dash8King
Why Is Austria Not Part Of Nato posted Tue Jul 9 2002 07:59:57 by Boeing in pdx
Why Do People Not Complain More? posted Fri Aug 31 2007 21:26:39 by Bofredrik
Is There Something Magical About Cabernet? posted Thu Nov 30 2006 08:59:49 by STLGph
Why Not More Breast-Milk? posted Fri Jun 10 2005 21:59:34 by ConcordeBoy