Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
BBC: IPhone Launches; Nobody Cares  
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6644 times:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19557497

[fair use excerpt:]

Apple seems less interested in blowing people away than it is in milking profit out of the existing lineup. At this Cook is doing marvellously well.

Apple has more than $100bn in cash. Its market value of $632bn makes it the biggest company in the world, bigger than any company in US history.

That's great for Apple's shareholders. But for customers, who cares? In terms of products, Apple has become the one thing it should never be. Apple has become boring.

----------------------------

That pretty much sums up Apple today; fat, bloated, rich and lazy. And boring.

I have never been as underwhelmed at any Apple related launch as I was for the iPhone 5 today and after the presentation, my general reaction was: meh.

This never happened before, but it seems to be true; Apple is.. boring. The new and exciting stuff comes from the Android platform and Windows 8.


Tonight we fly
212 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8947 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Quoting Asturias (Thread starter):
This never happened before, but it seems to be true; Apple is.. boring. The new and exciting stuff comes from the Android platform and Windows 8.

Klaus' head just exploded.




Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1660 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

I am not an Apple fan boy, I have never owned their products but I will give them credit where credit is due and on the same token I will be critical when they deserve it.

For anyone to expect to be "blown away" by a line of product that is in its 5th generation is unrealistic. What they have done is improve a product.

Revolutionary leaps do occur maybe 2-3 times a decade but to expect it from the same product line every single year is a tad crazy.


I think people will enjoy the LTE connectivity very much. Even though I will not own one, that alone makes the new model worth it in my opinion.



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

This isn't exclusive to the iPhone or the tablets Apple makes, the innovations have been 'thinner' laptops, high density pixels on laptops, same old iMacs (also thinner for some odd reason) and no real progress on Mac Pros.

The designs are old (defenders say they're perfect, but I don't buy it) and there is no real interest in innovation.

There is a great interest in marketing and retail - Apple would have you use their products, Mac and iOS as devices for their media distribution (be it music or apps) and little else.

There was a time, not half a decade ago, when Apple was running on 12 cylinders, churning out new and exciting iPods, Macs, iPhones ... and they were all best in class. They were not as restricted to their failing 'cloud' strategy and one didn't need to enter passwords every other second and have the credit card at the ready.

The iLife apps are dying a slow lingering death, where every update focuses mostly on new Apple designed templates, instead of new features enabling Adobe to take over where Apple was making great strides before.

iTunes 'updates' (like the one today) is just to add support for the new iOS devices they have announced. Granted there is a redesigned iTunes on the way, but it isn't so much the design of the thing that is the problem - rather the lack of focus and the bloaty feeling of the entire program.

Apple's meteoric rise was the product of great work and innovation, not by standing still and cashing in. Though I can see why that's tempting not, it is really uninspiring and dare I say: boring.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6557 times:

Quoting Asturias (Thread starter):
That's great for Apple's shareholders. But for customers, who cares? In terms of products, Apple has become the one thing it should never be. Apple has become boring.

So what's supposed to be new about an article like that?

Even when the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone and the iPad were presented you could read articles like that, often accompanied by a dip of the stock price.

The only news would be if actually nobody posted an article just like that – then there might really be cause for actual concern...!

In this context a look at the two Apple-related threads pretty clearly proves otherwise already (including, notably, intense participation of yourself).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Klaus' head just exploded.

Why should it?

Although it might if I was actually caught in a shirt like that...   


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6557 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 5):
I am not an Apple fan boy, I have never owned their products but I will give them credit where credit is due and on the same token I will be critical when they deserve it.

Same here, though I tend to be more of an Apple fan than not.

Quoting flanker (Reply 5):
For anyone to expect to be "blown away" by a line of product that is in its 5th generation is unrealistic. What they have done is improve a product.

Indeed, and in fact in the case of the iPhone, it isn't that bad as such - but if the hardware couldn't be pushed forward, then the OS definitely could.

The other mobile OSs have progressed leaps and strides and by comparison make the iOS look and feel dated. That's something Apple's designers and engineers definitely could have worked on if the phone itself is mature.

Therein lies my criticism.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6535 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 9):
The other mobile OSs have progressed leaps and strides and by comparison make the iOS look and feel dated. That's something Apple's designers and engineers definitely could have worked on if the phone itself is mature.

Therein lies my criticism.

If you prefer superficial modifications over consistent progression and long-term upgrades, you will likely be better served with something other than iOS.

I don't have a problem with preferring consistency and usability over superficial changes, particularly when those distract from usability more than actually serving it. But that is certainly a matter of personal preferences.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6517 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Even when the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone and the iPad were presented you could read articles like that, often accompanied by a dip of the stock price.

Anecdotally there seems far less interest. Even the release thread at Macrumors barely dipped above 1000 posts (vis a vis the 5000+ post when the the Verizon iPhone 4 was launched)

The newspapers carry the story, but with little fanfare and the replies are scarce and muted.

Anticlimactic.

There have of course always been some writers banking on writing something negative about Apple, but this isn't one of them.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6516 times:

I just upgraded to a Galaxy S3 three weeks ago; I'll admit, at the time, I felt like I should have waited to see how the iPhone 5 turned out. All of a sudden, I'm glad I didn't; the specs between the 5 and the S3 are nearly a dead match, except the S3 has a larger screen and better battery life (supposedly).


Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6508 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 12):
I just upgraded to a Galaxy S3 three weeks ago; I'll admit, at the time, I felt like I should have waited to see how the iPhone 5 turned out. All of a sudden, I'm glad I didn't; the specs between the 5 and the S3 are nearly a dead match, except the S3 has a larger screen and better battery life (supposedly).

Indeed, last time around when the iPhone 4 was introduced it was basically 6 months ahead of any competitor - but oddly the Samsung Galaxy SIII is taking that spot now.

The iPhone 5 is actually outdated before it is released. I may be expecting too much of Apple, but seeing as they're losing marketshare to the competition very fast, I'd expect them to want to stay ahead of the game.

So far the Galaxy SIII has outsold the iPhone 4S in the USA, and by leaps and bounds in Europe, perhaps this will change with the iPhone 5... but I'm not so sure. Time will tell, but the iPhone is both more limited and older tech than the SIII and more expensive.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1660 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6503 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 12):
I just upgraded to a Galaxy S3 three weeks ago; I'll admit, at the time, I felt like I should have waited to see how the iPhone 5 turned out. All of a sudden, I'm glad I didn't; the specs between the 5 and the S3 are nearly a dead match, except the S3 has a larger screen and better battery life (supposedly).

I am perfectly happy with my S3 



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6476 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 11):
Anecdotally there seems far less interest.
Anecdotally the same was said about the iPhone 4S (the "disappointing" iPhone!) – and yet its sales have eclipsed all its predecessors with pretty much the same geometrical growth as the ones before.

There is no doubt that the audience tends to get more jaded with old age as I can attest to from my own perspective.

But on the other hand one may also become more relaxed about "end of the world" claims in general.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 13):
So far the Galaxy SIII has outsold the iPhone 4S in the USA

The S3 being in its first, the 4S in its fourth quarter. Not a big surprise.

[Edited 2012-09-12 14:57:18]

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6463 times:

I believe that Apple put more into the new iPhone than most people realize. The video on the Apple site shows a few bits of design & engineering efforts.

Apple has been shifting product focus for some time now. A hard focus on notebooks and the result is the best selling notebook like in the US.

The iOS market is ver profitable for Apple, with more due next month in a smaller iPad.

Where we need some attention now is in the desktop lines. That is the only area of frustration for me.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 13):
So far the Galaxy SIII has outsold the iPhone 4S in the USA

It's no surprise that a new product will outsell last year's product. The 4S is now going to be $99 IIRC.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6455 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
I believe that Apple put more into the new iPhone than most people realize. The video on the Apple site shows a few bits of design & engineering efforts.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/appl...-5-specs-features/?olo=editorspick

I agree,
The change in HW is pretty impressive. Also IOS 6 offers some distinct advantages. I think the OP and others are happy about their Samsung, and that is nice. But to quote an article written by a known apple attacker is really not a good source for the mood of the consumers. However for ease of use and supported software Apple gets kudos. IOS6 is going to run on the 3GS which is now over 3 years old.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6456 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Anecdotally the same was said about the iPhone 4S (the "disappointing" iPhone!) – and yet its sales have eclipsed all its predecessors with pretty much the same geometrical growth as the ones before.

The problem is that the competition's models are now eclipsing the iPhone. That's new, at least in the USA.

However, I have a well placed finger on the pulse of Apple, and it's no 'business as usual' this time. I wouldn't bet the farm that the iPhone 5 outsells the Galaxy SIII the next quarter.

Though it will outsell it's older siblings, such as the iPhone 4S, but that's neither here nor there.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
The S3 being in its first, the 4S in its fourth quarter. Not a big surprise.

Yeah, I mentioned that, but the SIII is probably going to outsell the 5 this quarter. It's a better phone and cheaper to boot.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6446 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
The problem is that the competition's models are now eclipsing the iPhone. That's new, at least in the USA.

As far as I'm aware it has in fact happened before in trailing quarters. And Apple has never had a majority of the market anyway, numbers-wise, nor have they even gone for it.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
However, I have a well placed finger on the pulse of Apple, and it's no 'business as usual' this time. I wouldn't bet the farm that the iPhone 5 outsells the Galaxy SIII the next quarter.

You can bet whatever you want – we'll see how things will turn out.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
Yeah, I mentioned that, but the SIII is probably going to outsell the 5 this quarter. It's a better phone and cheaper to boot.

Samsung will be happy to have you as their customer if that is your personal opinion.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 6 days ago) and read 6358 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
The problem is that the competition's models are now eclipsing the iPhone. That's new, at least in the USA.

The iPhone 5 is going to be like previous versions - people will look at it at an Apple Store (or carrier store) and make a decision. Carriers will also be pushing their sales staff to push non-Apple brands (because they are cheaper for the carrier) and a lot of customers will flip a coin on what to buy.

People with an iPhone or an Android phone will probable stick with their brand because of the software investments they have made.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
I wouldn't bet the farm that the iPhone 5 outsells the Galaxy SIII the next quarter.

Android will probably outsell the iPhones (all models) for the year and Apple will continue to be satisfied with their sales and overall performance.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):
It's a better phone and cheaper to boot.

Delighted you are enjoying yours. But surprised at your ability to make an evaluation of the differences of the two when the iPhone has yet to hit the market.

BTW, did you see the video on apple.com that shows some of the production bits?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
And Apple has never had a majority of the market anyway, numbers-wise, nor have they even gone for it.

Having the majority of the market isn't the most important factor. Profitability, customer satisfaction, developers participation and satisfaction with their compensation, and loyalty levels are all more important than which company sells the most product.


User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6343 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
Where we need some attention now is in the desktop lines. That is the only area of frustration for me

Honest question here:

Other than, perhaps, really high-powered computer applications (and you may very well need them, I don't know), is there really a reason to have a desktop computer anymore?

I bought a new laptop in June (Dell), bought a USB docking station, hooked up my regular keyboard and monitor, and use it as a desktop. Back when I had a separate desktop and older laptop, I almost never used the desktop.

What applications are out there today that truly need capability that laptops can't provide? What percentage of the total computer users out there actually would need to own a desktop instead of a laptop because they use those applications?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6314 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Klaus' head just exploded.

Oooh. Messy!

Quoting flanker (Reply 5):
For anyone to expect to be "blown away" by a line of product that is in its 5th generation is unrealistic. What they have done is improve a product.

Revolutionary leaps do occur maybe 2-3 times a decade but to expect it from the same product line every single year is a tad crazy.

Bingo. As has been pointed out? What other "revolution" is there?

We haven't figured out how to make actual tactile buttons rise up out of the flat screen yet. I'm sure Apple is trying to figure out how. We haven't figured out how to project 3D holograms into the thin air just yet. I'm sure Apple is trying to figure out how. Honestly, I thought Siri was pretty neat.

But until someone figures something really Sci-Fi out, how to execute it well without frequent crashes and failures, and how to make it mass-producible, there won't be any earth-shattering upgrades.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13736 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6334 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well, as an iPhone 4 owner, I'm giddy at the thought of getting iOS6 on my existing device, and will check out the iPhone 5 in the stores to determine if the size difference is a make-or-break for me. Odds are I'll take the plunge, since the LTE speed is my major "want" on it, but if it's physically bigger than I want I may pass.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinemajestic477 From Ghana, joined Sep 2012, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6207 times:

when you start suing people because the shape of things, you will think twice when changing the way yours look lest.....
Bye the way i think apple is great the only downside is restrictions. Heck you cant even transfer pics via bluetooth between two apple products.E


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6200 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 6):
There was a time, not half a decade ago, when Apple was running on 12 cylinders, churning out new and exciting iPods, Macs, iPhones ... and they were all best in class.

Maybe this is a technology problem, rather than an Apple problem? I don't see Android OEMs churning out anything really mindblowing, either.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2335 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

So much hatred for Apple, the phone provider with the lowest OS market share. It reminds me of Visa and MasterCard issuers always attacking AmEx, another provider with the lowest market share, but never each other. I guess it's because they know their products are all really just the same under the covers.

Companies like AmEx and Apple are just different. They do their own thing and come up with some truly amazing stuff: changing the music business, revolutionizing the phone set industry, creating loyalty programs that are still the gold standard to this day. But come on people, you can only come up with so much genius in any given decade.

I have a droid myself. It's the one Apple product I don't have in my arsenal and the thing is truly a piece of garbage. This is a 2.5 yeard old Droid X with some of the worst UI you can imagine. I take it the SIII is a quantum leap, and I'll give that one a go vs. the i5, but credit where it's due. Apple did change this business and both Apple lovers and Google lovers should be thankful. Having Apple and Samsung and Google etc. duke it out will mean good things for everyone.

PS: Klaus! Personal question...if you have all this cloud stuff with Apple do you still need 64GB or can you just save everything up there and take the 16?


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6188 times:

It's like the 777X - nobody cares...

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6154 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
Maybe this is a technology problem, rather than an Apple problem?

Software, apps. iOS ,and the ecosystem is the key - the physical containers of it (ie iphone, and eventually ipad) will become less and less relevant. - and that is where Apple's growth will come from.. the fact that i can control stream my itunes collection on my main stereo system, controlling it thru my iphone while laying in bed reading..

Not to mention the halo effect from iphone to the rest of the offering..

How many versions of Android are they? My boss keeps rebooting his Galaxy phone at least 2 a day - he is quite vocal about it.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 12):
S3 are nearly a dead match, except the S3 has a larger screen and better battery life

Sure, but the S3 feel a bit on the cheap side when you handle it.. the plastic back?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1813 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6186 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):

Sure, but the S3 feel a bit on the cheap side when you handle it.. the plastic back?

It may look cheap but the fact of the matter is - you drop an iPhone and you end up paying 200 dollars to have it repaired. You drop an S3 - and nothing happens other than some cosmetic scratches. I have a Galaxy Nexus and I can't tell you how many times I've dropped it on concrete - no case. I can't also tell you how many times I've seen damaged iPhones.

I'm not an Apple fan boy, I don't really care for Apple products, but I do expect them to do things a little crazy. It seems thought that Apple has turned into the Porsche of the tech world.

Take a Porsche 911:

Stretch it horizontally - Caymen
Strech it vertically - Cayenne
Stretch it horizontally and take the roof off - Boxster
Take out some heavy stuff and put in a more powerful engine - Turbo.

Apple is doing the same thing - and while those apple fan boys will be brainwashed into thinking this iPhone 5 is the best thing in the world - It's not really anything new.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6167 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It's not really anything new.

That's fine - Marketing 101: "You don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle" - As long as you accept that the iphone is at least on the same ballpark as other phones - Whats wrong with a little marketing?

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
can't also tell you how many times I've seen damaged iPhones.

Me too! - but that could be just beacuse there are more iphones around!

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
Porsche of the tech world.

So? At the end of they day they are in it to make $$? is Porsche making $$, is Apple $$?

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It may look cheap but the fact of the matter is

If im paying the same price for a similar phone - i would rather it not look or feel cheap. That's just me.



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It may look cheap but the fact of the matter is - you drop an iPhone and you end up paying 200 dollars to have it repaired.

This is not true.

I've dropped my iPhone 4 on a brick fireplace multiple times without problems. Last week, I (embarrassingly) dropped it in the sink, filled with water, and the thing still works.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It's not really anything new.

I also cannot agree with this.

It used to be that if you made a computer 4 times faster, that was considered a breakthrough. It's certainly worth $200. That alone is reason enough for me to upgrade.



But anyway, it sucks that I've been drawn into this clearly flamebaiting thread. The OP has an axe to grind, and will not be swayed by anyone else's contrary opinions.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6159 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
So much hatred for Apple, the phone provider with the lowest OS market share.

Lowest OS market share would be WebOS or Symbian, not iOS.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):

How many versions of Android are they? My boss keeps rebooting his Galaxy phone at least 2 a day - he is quite vocal about it.

And how much of that might be user-related? Or related to bloatware put on by the carrier or manufacturer? Has he considered rooting it? My wife experienced that with her phone - when the Gingerbread update came out, it literally killed her phone and it required a factory reset. Afterwards it just wasn't stable and required a reboot frequently. She got tired of it and rooted her Samsung Epic 4G (which was Sprint's Galaxy phone) and installed CyanogenMod on it. She's had no trouble since.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):

Me too! - but that could be just beacuse there are more iphones around!

Actually, there are more Android phones than iPhones.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6150 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 34):

Actually, there are more Android phones than iPhones.

Well he was comparing it to S3's - specifically. And there are more iphones that S3s..

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 34):
Has he considered rooting it?
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 34):
She got tired of it and rooted her Samsung Epic 4G (which was Sprint's Galaxy phone) and installed CyanogenMod on it.

If you need to "fix" it yourself after purchase, what the point?

Its like buying a new car that doesn't start all the time - "but if you change the starter motor yourself, you should be good to go".. Really?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6133 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
This is not true.

$550 of my dollars says it is true. Although 150 of that was to replace bent pins on two successive dock connectors.

So let's just say it's sometimes true. The question is, would a clumsy idiot like me be better off with a Galaxy? I do like the "solid" feel of an iPhone (hence the reason I'm not a big fan of cases/sleeves etc), but maybe compromising on that a bit would mean less repair costs.

I think somebody needs to do the world's most expensive lab test.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 9
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 29):
It's like the 777X - nobody cares...

Some airlines are caring.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
Apple is doing the same thing - and while those apple fan boys will be brainwashed into thinking this iPhone 5 is the best thing in the world - It's not really anything new.

There is a lot that is new with the iPhone 5 - it's just not always in your face like some customers want. The bit of technology that Apple has developed for the iPhone is pretty impressive, but most customers won't notice it.

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
So much hatred for Apple, the phone provider with the lowest OS market share.

Could it be because Apple has the highest profit share of any maker?


User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 5):
For anyone to expect to be "blown away" by a line of product that is in its 5th generation is unrealistic.

Exactly, but yet fans are "blown away" every time the Apple CEO takes the stage. Apple has the marketing & hype down pat for sure. How else can so many people go crazy over the announcement of a phone with a 4" LCD, 1136 x 640-pixel resolution, 8MP camera, turn-by-turn navigation, and LTE connectivity?

-TLG


User currently onlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3182 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6066 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 4):
There was a time when mobile phones kept getting smaller. Now they seem to be getting bigger . . . .

Just think of a radio or music device, started with a tube/valve type radio the size of small refrigerator then shrunk to device with the advent of transistors to a small size then back to big with boom boxes now back to smaller yet.

So somehow in my perverted mind I see people walking down the street with a boom box size device on their shoulder talking on the phone or texting before they shrink back to a pocket size device.

Okie


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6031 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
PS: Klaus! Personal question...if you have all this cloud stuff with Apple do you still need 64GB or can you just save everything up there and take the 16?

I personally don't use iTunes Match, so my circa 40GB of music files reside entirely on my 64GB iPhone and on my 64GB iPad locally, not least because I don't need a "big" data plan otherwise (I've got 200MB/month which is sufficient for my needs beyond WiFi).

I've basically chosen a higher up-front payment with zero running costs after that, but you can also choose lower up-front cost but additional running costs. (Besides I like having lots of space for apps and other data as well.)

If you'd have sufficient online access when you want to listen to your music, if your collection would fit into the limit set by iTunes Match and if you don't need more local space for other uses, it should be possible and practical to swap out much of your music to the iCloud, but it will cost you $24.99 every year. (You can of course keep all your music even if you choose to cancel the service eventually; Just the online iCloud playback option will stop working at that point.)

iTunes Match will still cache your music locally if you want it to, so it doesn't actually need to stream your tracks all the time. You can also pull down an album to local storage before leaving WiFi range if you know in advance you'll want to listen to it on the go, together with your more favoured tracks among your collection, so even then you don't necessarily cause a lot of mobile traffic all the time.

It should work as far as I'm aware; It's just a matter of how well it matches your particular preferences.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/itunes-match/

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):
Software, apps. iOS ,and the ecosystem is the key - the physical containers of it (ie iphone, and eventually ipad) will become less and less relevant. - and that is where Apple's growth will come from.

Not as far as Apple is concerned up to this point: They are making practically all their profits only from their hardware products; Software and services are only for sales support and are effectively run at cost. And it doesn't look as if that strategy was to their disadvantage, really...
 

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It may look cheap but the fact of the matter is - you drop an iPhone and you end up paying 200 dollars to have it repaired. You drop an S3 - and nothing happens other than some cosmetic scratches.

Not true either way. You can have good or bad luck with both.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
So let's just say it's sometimes true. The question is, would a clumsy idiot like me be better off with a Galaxy? I do like the "solid" feel of an iPhone (hence the reason I'm not a big fan of cases/sleeves etc), but maybe compromising on that a bit would mean less repair costs.

If you're really prone to accidentally damaging your devices, either a cover/bumper for the iPhone or a ruggedized competing model may indeed be your best shot, according to your other priorities.

I've dropped some of my iOS devices over the years, sometimes on hard surfaces, and none of them has ever suffered noticeable damage.

Life is never without risk. Do I wear a helmet just for crossing the street? No, I don't do that either. I'm reasonably careful and the rest is up to chance. I've been doing pretty well with that approach so far.

Quoting TLG (Reply 38):
Exactly, but yet fans are "blown away" every time the Apple CEO takes the stage.

The funny thing is that I constantly read about those mythical fans as if they somehow made up all of Apple's customers, but I actually meet ones very, very rarely in real life, as with most other products or manufacturers (Apple Store openings or initial sales of major new products certainly attract the small fraction of really amped-up fans, but that behaviour is still not the rule but the exception).

The actual Apple customers around here are also much more oriented to actual practical matters and their own concrete preferences and relative judgments of various products than to that constantly presumed, but actually rarely observed excitement you are talking about. The actual emotional excitement is much, much higher on the anti-Apple side of such discussions if you really check discussion threads for it.

I myself consider the iPhone 5 a nice upgrade along Apple's greater product strategy, but as with every other product I see some aspects as a fellow developer observing colleagues making their decisions and compromises on the one hand and on the other my own considerations as a user regarding added value relative to my existing phone, upgrade price and only after that some subjective factors may come in as well ("the new shiny").

Pretty much boring stuff for the most part, just as with most other people, only with my own personal priorities and preferences in my case.

Quoting TLG (Reply 38):
Apple has the marketing & hype down pat for sure. How else can so many people go crazy over the announcement of a phone with a 4" LCD, 1136 x 640-pixel resolution, 8MP camera, turn-by-turn navigation, and LTE connectivity?

Very few people "go crazy" about these devices. Over 400 million iOS devices aren't sold via people "going crazy". Such numbers are sold by actually making an attractive value proposition to users even at Apple's solid prices, particularly keeping them satisfied enough to purchase other products from the same manufacturer again after being satisfied with their previous experience, and talking about it to others.

Again relatively boring stuff, but that is where the music's actually playing.

You cannot just hype your way to sales like these – you actually have to deliver real, practical value to your customers. And that is extremely difficult if you're aiming for user satisfaction rates on the level which Apple actually manages to achieve.

If I'm amazed about anything, it is primarily with the consistent substance of that actual value proposition, not with the ephemeral style of their product presentations (as entertaining as these can be on their own).


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It seems thought that Apple has turned into the Porsche of the tech world.

Take a Porsche 911:

Stretch it horizontally - Caymen
Strech it vertically - Cayenne
Stretch it horizontally and take the roof off - Boxster
Take out some heavy stuff and put in a more powerful engine - Turbo.

Apple is doing the same thing - and while those apple fan boys will be brainwashed into thinking this iPhone 5 is the best thing in the world - It's not really anything new.

It's not Apple who has one model that is tall, one short, one wide, one cheap, one expensive, one for gaming, one for facebook, etc. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5929 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
If you're really prone to accidentally damaging your devices, either a cover/bumper for the iPhone or a ruggedized competing model may indeed be your best shot, according to your other priorities.

The bit that breaks most easily though is the screen, and that's the one thing I really don't want covered up, because it never gives as much tactile pleasure running your fingers across a piece of plastic than across the glass.

I'm kind of skeptical the Galaxy would be any different on that front though, which is why I want a real world test.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5910 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):

The bit that breaks most easily though is the screen, and that's the one thing I really don't want covered up, because it never gives as much tactile pleasure running your fingers across a piece of plastic than across the glass.

Really? I apply an anti-glare coating to mine. It does decrease the resolution very slightly, but not enough that I really notice or care.

At any rate, I keep my phone in a smooth-sided case (so it doesn't stick to the inside of my pocket) with an anti-glare cover. I have broken one phone (broke the ear speaker) while it was in the case.

If you break your phone they will sell you a new (reconditioned) one for $160 (and returning your old phone so that they can repair it).


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5900 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
The bit that breaks most easily though is the screen, and that's the one thing I really don't want covered up, because it never gives as much tactile pleasure running your fingers across a piece of plastic than across the glass.

The bumpers are kind of neat in that respect as they wrap around the edge, protruding slightly beyond the front and back surfaces so that the glass will never touch the ground (unless there are exposed pebbles or other peaks), but the glass remains open to the touch.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC...68ZM/B/apple-iphone-4-bumper-white


User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5886 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
because it never gives as much tactile pleasure running your fingers across

::cough::


And suddenly, this thread is rated R.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 5871 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
Delighted you are enjoying yours.

I don't have a Galaxy SIII, wouldn't mind one, but don't have one.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
But surprised at your ability to make an evaluation of the differences of the two when the iPhone has yet to hit the market.

The tech specs are already out and I've tried the SIII hands on, it is smoother than any Apple product I've seen. It's also a quad core, which adds a lot to perceived smoothness of usage.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
Where we need some attention now is in the desktop lines. That is the only area of frustration for me.

  

Couldn't agree more! .. though I don't expect any this year.

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 21):
Other than, perhaps, really high-powered computer applications (and you may very well need them, I don't know), is there really a reason to have a desktop computer anymore?

I think there's even more reason for a desktop computer than ever, now with these ultra-light relatively powerful handheld devices.

Laptops, on the other hand... I see less and less reason for their continued existence.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
Maybe this is a technology problem, rather than an Apple problem? I don't see Android OEMs churning out anything really mindblowing, either.

Partially, sure, but the iPhone 5 is technology-wise behind the Samsung Galaxy SIII in almost all respects. There isn't a mind-blowing difference, but there is a definite difference.

I'm also refering to the Macintosh line, which has seen little or lackluster updates in the last year(s). That's not (despite what Apple apologists insist) because of the lack of hardware available, but a combination of tertiary factors, such as the insane insistence of Ive to make the iMac thinner and thinner (it's a desktop for goodness sake) and the lack of interest Apple has towards their computer line.

Their OS vision is to make OS X become some sort of iOS/desktop hybrid, focusing on selling people stuff through a propriatory app store and iTunes.

The only place where I'm actually pretty content with Apple is with the iPod line, after the most recent refresh, it looks excellent - Apple is still on the top of their game with the iPod.



Tonight we fly
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 5851 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 44):
The tech specs are already out and I've tried the SIII hands on

Well, if you're only looking at specs, you know what else has all the specs of an SIII?



Clearly, it matters how the specs are put together. It matters quite a bit.

Some people don't mind just loading up the specs, and putting it in whatever casing that fits. Those people bought Dells (and Yugos) and made someone a lot of money.

But others like how it all fits together. We see great value in not just maxing out the specs, but actually producing a product that looks and feels right. It's the difference between buying a cheap car and a luxury car, really. Not at all a slight against people who prefer to spend their money differently, but more a question as to why the people who prefer cheap have such a bone to pick with people who prefer style and function.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 44):
I think there's even more reason for a desktop computer than ever, now with these ultra-light relatively powerful handheld devices.

Laptops, on the other hand... I see less and less reason for their continued existence.

With this, I actually agree.

My 4 year old MacBook Pro is in need of replacement. I considered getting a new MacBook Pro, but then it occurred to me that since I have my iPad, I can get a more powerful desktop Mac to use at home (or pack in carryon luggage if I *really* needed it, since it's small anyway) for less money than a laptop, and use the iPad (or similar tablet) when I'm on the go.

[Edited 2012-09-13 16:03:32]


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineBlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1813 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 5845 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 31):
It's not really anything new.

I also cannot agree with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4
Jimmy Kimmel proves that I'm right.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 5832 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
Clearly, it matters how the specs are put together. It matters quite a bit.

Of course, it is crucial. Fortunately the SIII is an amazing piece of engineering, so there's no need to worry there.

I'm sure one can fault Samsung for many things, but their engineers and fabrication process is second to none.

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
With this, I actually agree.

  

 



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13736 posts, RR: 61
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5821 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Klaus, do you know if iOS6 is going to bring Siri to the iPhone 4 and/or iPad 2? I can't seem to find that info.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
Very few people "go crazy" about these devices.

Are you talking about the "very few people" that will be camping in front of Apple stores next Thursday night?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 48):
Klaus, do you know if iOS6 is going to bring Siri to the iPhone 4 and/or iPad 2? I can't seem to find that info.

Unfortunately not:
http://www.apple.com/ios/siri/siri-faq/

Quote:
Siri is available in Beta only on iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPad (3rd generation), and iPod touch (5th generation) and requires Internet access. Siri may not be available in all languages or in all areas, and features may vary by area. Cellular data charges may apply.

 

Quoting TLG (Reply 49):
Are you talking about the "very few people" that will be camping in front of Apple stores next Thursday night?

Compared to the 400 million iOS devices already in use and the over 430 million active iTunes accounts, the number of people who enjoy that kind of event is actually miniscule.

Only because of the massive total numbers the tiny fraction of highly excited fans is actually noticeable at all. But almost all users are actually not camping at the stores.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

I find it amusing that everyone that hates apple or says the Iphone 4 or 5 for that Matter will never be on par or sell as much as Android/Samsung phones is missing the most important data. PROFITS.

Apple has more than 85% of the revenue on the Smartphone markets in fact it trumps Samsung....

Quote:
Despite the fact that Samsung surpassed Apple in terms of global smartphone market share, Apple’s iPhone generates more revenue than Samsung’s entire mobile division, according to data from Juniper Research. “Apple’s revenues from its ‘mobile division’ continues to remain significantly higher than Samsung’s, even when you take into account the latter’s feature phones,” Juniper research analyst Daniel Ashdown said. Apple’s iPhone revenue was $22.7 billion in the first quarter of 2012, $29.3 billion if you were to include the iPad, compared with Samsung’s $17 billion from its entire mobile division.

source: http://www.bgr.com/2012/05/01/samsung-apple-smartphone-revenue/

So it doesn't matter if Samsung sells a gazillion Phones, the bottom line is how much you make as a company and in that regard Apple is clearly the winner, if you add brand loyalty and repeat buying customers... well you get the idea, we will have this kind of threads FOR A LONG TIME here on Anet....

Spin it as much as you like, haters gonna hate !!! Apple has a great product, and will sell a lot of them and more important will make truckloads of money from it.



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 47):
Spin it as much as you like, haters gonna hate !!! Apple has a great product, and will sell a lot of them and more important will make truckloads of money from it.

This isn't about hating Apple. Who really hates Apple anyway? Some are unimpressed, some are mildly annoyed by their image - and some certainly despise their fanatics.

I do not hate Apple, I'm rather fond of Apple. I'm writing this on one a 2008 iMac.

I've just never seen Apple in this situation before; successful but uninteresting. It used to be the other way around.

There are many Apple fans still fighting the good fight of the 90s. Apple isn't going out of business and there's no danger of it falling out of people's minds any time in the next 10 years.

The iPhone 5 is a fine product, it is not great. It certainly isn't insanely great. Perhaps Apple should focus on making something else great, now that the iPhone has hit a plateu?



Tonight we fly
User currently onlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2335 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5599 times:

So what you're saying is you want or need Apple to revolutionize entire 80 year old industries every two years? That's a tall order chief. They do this more than just about anyone else these days but I'd suggest you apply your standards to any other company in this business and then come take a fresh look at this unimaginative, uninteresting, and boring company. By comparison you might find them to be innovative, exciting, and groundbreaking all over again.

PS: Kaus..thanks for the answer.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 49):
So what you're saying is you want or need Apple to revolutionize entire 80 year old industries every two years?

Why does every argument need to be turned into it's absurd extreme?

To answer your question: no.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5573 times:

In response to OP.
Apparently nobody cares.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...st-initial-supply-trip-up-servers/

the first batch of IPHONE 5's sold out in the first hour and crashed servers as people rushed to get it.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 51):
the first batch of IPHONE 5's sold out in the first hour and crashed servers as people rushed to get it.

How many units were in the first batch? But seriously, I didn't claim the iPhone wouldn't sell, I'm sure it will - there's a large market for smartphones.

It's just not very interesting, it's boring, but gets the job done. It is meh instead of wow. The difference between Apple and other smartphone makers is that other smartphone makers are doing something innovative and exciting (e.g. Nokia, HTC and Samsung) while Apple is releasing the iPhone 4S-xtra tall.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):
It's just not very interesting, it's boring, but gets the job done. It is meh instead of wow.

Don't hold back with your opinion there by any means..!

It's just a very different question how many people actually share that sentiment. In the end what matters is actual sales.

Apple is not known for starting sales with tiny numbers of available devices, so being sold out within the hour would not really point to lackluster interest.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5552 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):

It's just not very interesting, it's boring,
Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):
re doing something innovative and exciting (e.g. Nokia, HTC and Samsung) while Apple is releasing the iPhone 4S-xtra tall.

Is that why the Samsung, HTC and Nokia's website crash when they release new phones?

BTW, I hope you are right - my speculative Nokia stock would be very grateful  Smile

[Edited 2012-09-14 08:39:13]


Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 55, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):
other smartphone makers are doing something innovative and exciting (e.g. Nokia, HTC and Samsung)

See this is what I don't get. I've never knocked other smart phone makers, but what I see in them is trying to be like the iPhone.

Help me out, Asturias. What is innovative and exciting about Nokia, HTC, and Samsung's 2012 lineup?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):
It's just not very interesting, it's boring, but gets the job done. It is meh instead of wow.

What is boring about a product that works, and works well? What apple does, they do well. What new feature would have wowed you?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 9
Reply 57, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5518 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 40):
it is smoother than any Apple product I've seen.

Smoother than the previous generation iPhone, but looks like you'll need to physically evaluate the iPhone 5 before making a final decision. From a guy who actually spent some time with the iPhone 5 after the announcement:

Quote:

Gene Munster with Piper Jaffray said while the iPhone 5 is like a Rolex, many competing phones "feel more like cheaper Timex-brand watches. He questioned why someone would buy a Timex when they can have a Rolex for the same price.
[/quote

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/..._as_a_rolex_among_a_sea_of_timexes

Quoting Asturias (Reply 40):
It's also a quad core, which adds a lot to perceived smoothness of usage.

Apple is one of the first to use a Corte-A15 processor. Delivers about twice the performance as the previous generation and a bit easier on battery life.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipad-iphone/news/?newsid=3381318

[quote=Asturias,reply=40]Partially, sure, but the iPhone 5 is technology-wise behind the Samsung Galaxy SIII in almost all respects. There isn't a mind-blowing difference, but there is a definite difference.

Maybe they just caught up. Maybe they even passed Samsung.

Quoting TLG (Reply 45):
Are you talking about the "very few people" that will be camping in front of Apple stores next Thursday night?

There will be some, but there is also going to be a huge level of sales on the internet. And Apple will allocate some to the stores.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
I've just never seen Apple in this situation before; successful but uninteresting.

Sales rates will determine how interesting the product is. A lot of people have been holding off buying a new smartphone until they saw the new iPhone. That is going to blow sales out the door in the first eek, which is why Apple will have millions ready to deliver.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
The iPhone 5 is a fine product, it is not great. It certainly isn't insanely great. Perhaps Apple should focus on making something else great, now that the iPhone has hit a plateu?

Check the comment above about the Rolex .

Quoting Asturias (Reply 52):
The difference between Apple and other smartphone makers is that other smartphone makers are doing something innovative and exciting

So they are doing something besides copying the iPhone? Putting a lot of buttons on the front - maybe a BB?

I doubt very seriously that the other brands are going to put the focus on design & production that Apple has.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 58, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
Is that why the Samsung, HTC and Nokia's website crash when they release new phones?

Maybe Apple's website technology is worse than the competition? It does seem to go down a lot and at very predictable times, so one can't really blame it on Apple being caught off guard.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
BTW, I hope you are right - my speculative Nokia stock would be very grateful  

I think Nokia has a really good chance of becoming a core player in the smartphone market - I wish them all the best.

Quoting D L X (Reply 55):
I've never knocked other smart phone makers, but what I see in them is trying to be like the iPhone.

I don't see that at all, perhaps you might want to take a step back and try out some of the competition - for one thing you'd discover that they're not really much like the iPhone and for another, you'd discover that in many cases HTC, Samsung, Nokia et al surpass Cupertino.

Quoting D L X (Reply 55):
Help me out, Asturias. What is innovative and exciting about Nokia, HTC, and Samsung's 2012 lineup?

What's exciting is that they're not copying the iPhone, but making their own way and doing an amazing job at it - Android has surpassed iOS a while back now in terms of features, flexibility, compatibilty and reliability and Windows 8 looks amazing and an exciting alternative to the established systems.

Hardware-wise, it's as varied as the models are many. There are large screens, small screens, NFC, removable batteries, tough cases, SD card expansion slots, standard micro USB connectors... there's something for everyone.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
What is boring about a product that works, and works well? What apple does, they do well. What new feature would have wowed you?

Mostly I would have been wowed by an SD card expansion, NFC, a revamp and redesign of the iOS UI, allowing mass storage and the availability of apps such as VLC and Firefox on the iOS.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Maybe they just caught up. Maybe they even passed Samsung.

No, quite the opposite, they've been left behind - at launch the iPhone 5 was already outdated tech.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5332 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 58):
Hardware-wise, it's as varied as the models are many. There are large screens, small screens, NFC, removable batteries, tough cases, SD card expansion slots, standard micro USB connectors... there's something for everyone.

I don't use individual paper features, I use a complete device. And there is a world of difference between a spec sheet with its bullet points and the actual user experience I actually have when using it in real life.

My job is actually all about what's "in between" the two: System integration and software (OS and applications). And I've chosen to go exactly there because it's by far the most challenging and interesting aspect of computing.

That I don't select products merely via spec sheet comparisons is no surprise under these circumstances.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 59):
I don't use individual paper features, I use a complete device. And there is a world of difference between a spec sheet with its bullet points and the actual user experience I actually have when using it in real life.

That's an irrelevant argument, since all the major Android device makers make a complete and extremely capable device, so the specs actually matter.

This isn't the 90s.

The competition matches or beats Apple in both specs and the 'complete' device. Good example is the iCloud, which is thoroughly matched and then some by the services Google offers.

In fact, say what you will about Google, but when it comes to online services and cloud services they are peerless. So with every Android device, one gets (apart from perhaps better specs than iOS devices) the state-of-the-art online cloud service.

When the 'whole' device, specs, design, manufacture quality and ecosystem is considered, it puts Apple even farther behind - so one would be wise not to harp too much on that matter.



Tonight we fly
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 58):
What's exciting is that they're not copying the iPhone, but making their own way and doing an amazing job at it - Android has surpassed iOS a while back now in terms of features, flexibility, compatibilty and reliability and Windows 8 looks amazing and an exciting alternative to the established systems.

???


Asturias, can you name an exciting and innovative feature found on a 2012 Android device? I'm sorry but, "making their own way and doing an amazing job at it" is a pretty vacuous answer to that question.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5268 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 58):
Hardware-wise, it's as varied as the models are many. There are large screens, small screens, NFC, removable batteries, tough cases, SD card expansion slots, standard micro USB connectors... there's something for everyone.

That's the thing I don't get. Who uses all that crap? It's like a swiss army knife, it's all in there, but you'll probably never need 99% of it. So why pay for it? You're gonna pay for it in money and in performance.

Comparing specs alone is useless anyway, it's not like Apple couldn't include it if they want to. It's why they didn't that I am interested in.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3839 posts, RR: 11
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5268 times:



lulz



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
Check the comment above about the Rolex .

Not a great comparison....Rolexes are mass produced and incredibly overpriced products, mostly bought by nouveau riche idiots wanting to impress their peasant girlfriends. That comparison wants me to run a mile from the iPhone as it implies the only reason you would by one would be for status.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
That's the thing I don't get. Who uses all that crap?

NFC is a gimmick (for now, although somebody might come up with a good app for it), but all those other features are pretty useful IMO. One of the most irritating things to me about the iPhone is not having an SD card slot. That may not matter to you, but it does to some people. Saying you pay more for it is demonstrably not true, since Apple products are almost always more expensive than the competition. You're paying for the Apple design, which is just another "feature". Some people would rather have a different feature over that one  
Quoting Asturias (Reply 60):
That's an irrelevant argument, since all the major Android device makers make a complete and extremely capable device, so the specs actually matter.

Absolutely. The "features doesn't matter" argument is out of date these days. It always amazes me in these arguments how vehemently people will argue in favor of one device despite the fact that they haven't used its rival in several years (if at all). I don't think anyone would take a 1st gen iPhone over a Samsung Galaxy, or a 2007 vintage Android over an iPhone 5....



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7944 posts, RR: 19
Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting Asturias (Thread starter):
That pretty much sums up Apple today; fat, bloated, rich and lazy. And boring.

I'd like to chime in here from personal experience:

The iPhone 5 release has appeared to be revolutionary in Japan......


.....probably because Softbank's 3G service sucks gigantic wang, and because the 5 runs off of 4G, and Japanese people love new tech stuff.


And also all my US Based friends with iPhone 4s (or even some with the galaxy    ) have said they're ordering it.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2167 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 5203 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 40):
I think there's even more reason for a desktop computer than ever, now with these ultra-light relatively powerful handheld devices.

Laptops, on the other hand... I see less and less reason for their continued existence.


Absolutely.... laptops are dead as far as I'm concerned. Desktops and tablets FTW!


Quoting D L X (Reply 55):
Help me out, Asturias. What is innovative and exciting about Nokia, HTC, and Samsung's 2012 lineup?

Well it's the little things that matter. They're finally going ahead on NFC, for example - the adoption isn't there yet, but with more devices out in the open, it's going to develop. The S3 keep the screen on as long as you're looking at it, because it tracks your eyes with the front camera. Doesn't sound like much - it's a brilliant feature once you've gotten used to it. Also, face unlock is great. Samsung also pioneered the quad-core on a mobile phone - worked so well even Apple adapted it. New Android devices can use voice control with an online connection - major advantage over Apple if you're abroad a lot like me. Data usage graphs - does the iPhone have those? I'm not sure. 1080p was first on Android, I understand the iPhone 5 will handle it as well. If you've got a contact open on an S3, you can just bring the phone to your head and it will call the contact. 4G connectivity was pioneered on Android. All these just from the top of my head.

It seems Android went from catching up to Windows Mobile and iOS to being a trend-setter and the first to introduce new technologies. Now, Apple will always be ahead at the implementation of those technologies. They manufacture only one phone, and they developed a custom OS for it in-house, so they can spend all their attention to making it work perfectly, for exactly the use-case they are developing it for. So comparing that one single use-case to the huge and varied Android ecosystem is pointless. If you're the user Apple develops their products for, and if you're willing to pay their prices, then you'll hardly ever find a better phone. But if you have different requirements (small phone / huge phone / physical keyboard / real camera / open system / customization / etc.), Android provides a powerful alternative.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
What is boring about a product that works, and works well? What apple does, they do well. What new feature would have wowed you?

That's the thing about being wowed, isn't it? You can't really say until you see it. The first iPhone was "wow", because nobody expected something like that. It was completely innovative. About the iPhone 5, was there a single aspect that wasn't anticipated? Is there any feature of the iPhone 5 that hasn't been seen on another phone before? Yes, not in this design and in this combination, but combining stuff and making it work right isn't really innovative.

[Edited 2012-09-16 16:34:32]


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 5183 times:

As I currently own both an iPhone & iPad at this time, I was looking forward to what the 5 was going to bring to the table. Needless to say I was left a little bit deflated.
Okay it has LTE which is only just about to be launched in the UK, but will lack widespread network coverage for at least 12-18 months so that isn't a deal breaker for me at the moment (as it happens my current provider will launch 4G LTE in the second half of next year).
The majority of what is on this new iPhone whilst well made and well thought out for the design...I feel Apple hasn't given me a reason to part with my cash for their new phone this time around.
I've had pretty much every iPhone to date, but this time around I feel like I would simply be wasting my money. It's already outdated before it began for starters. There is nothing ground breaking or exciting about this new phone at all. I'm not sure why I should replace my current iPhone with a slightly taller and thinner one that's not all that different otherwise.

Fair enough people have gone mad pre-ordering it now, but contrary to certain members views...Apple has become a cult for millions. I'm sure when the 5S comes along in 12-18 months it will be a little faster but not much else. Plus I'm sure that phone will sell like hotcakes as well.
I do enjoy Apple products for the most part, but there is really nothing in this new phone that gives me a reason to sign onto an inflated contract (due to the product itself), when I can get a technically superior phone for with the same network perks for a much smaller price.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day ago) and read 5038 times:

Well apparently 2 million PRE orders for the iPhone, and on friday we will see another 2 million sold...I guess NOBODY CARES is pretty good for Apple.


The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
That's the thing about being wowed, isn't it? You can't really say until you see it. The first iPhone was "wow", because nobody expected something like that. It was completely innovative. About the iPhone 5, was there a single aspect that wasn't anticipated? Is there any feature of the iPhone 5 that hasn't been seen on another phone before? Yes, not in this design and in this combination, but combining stuff and making it work right isn't really innovative.

Yes, well, the fact that it's called iPhone 5 means this is the fifth iteration, not to mention the 'S' half iterations, so yeah, it's not about raw innovation.

I'm still thinking an Apple branded TV with the iGoods inside of it, like the ability to put your own iApps on it instead of the crap that the various tv/dvd/dvr/game-box vendors decide to put on it could be the next big innovative step.

I have a tried a few different boxes (WD-LIVE, Roku, TiVo, etc) and these things are heading in the right direction, but I think Apple could do a lot better than these or their own earlier efforts.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 67):
The majority of what is on this new iPhone whilst well made and well thought out for the design...I feel Apple hasn't given me a reason to part with my cash for their new phone this time around.

Which is a perfectly OK place to be. On the other hand, at least around here 4G LTE has been rolled out for quite a while, and Apple has been behind the competitors with respect to it, and now they've caught up. You also forgot to mention the A6 chip in iPhone 5 that Apple says has 2x CPU power, 2x graphics performance, yet consumes less energy, on top of the things you did mention, like it having a bigger screen while being thinner and lighter. To you, all that doesn't add up to 'time to upgrade', whereas to many others who have been holding on to their phones for a while, it does.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

Is it still not possible to expand memory or change battery in the iphone 5? I could never understand how on earth those things were deemed sensible.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1720 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Well apparently 2 million PRE orders for the iPhone, and on friday we will see another 2 million sold...I guess NOBODY CARES is pretty good for Apple.

How many of them are just previous iPhone users just upgrading and how many of them are new users?.
You probably have no idea.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 70):

Is it still not possible to expand memory or change battery in the iphone 5? I could never understand how on earth those things were deemed sensible.

The price you pay for making it light, thin and "pretty".


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 71):
The price you pay for making it light, thin and "pretty".

How do you figure? Other phones manage it perfectly well. A micro sd slot is hardly bulky or heavy.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 73, posted (2 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 72):
A micro sd slot is hardly bulky or heavy.

If it's unnecessary it's too bulky. Space is at a premium.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 74, posted (2 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 4981 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 71):
How many of them are just previous iPhone users just upgrading and how many of them are new users?.
You probably have no idea.

LOL Who cares? if you are selling 4 million units or maybe more on a 10 day window, you are going to have at least 4 million walking customers selling the Iphone, new users or not.
Its comical because today we had more than 50 people asking about it at our store, and when I pulled my Iphone 4S and said " the Iphone 5 ..is a little bit larger and thinner" everyone on sight turned around because they thought I HAD an Iphone 5.

Yes I have no idea, not Apple (YET), and Samsung is trying to look cool but they should be scared... even if you don't like it MiLLIONS WILL BUY IT. and at least 2 million as of today do not think like you...

BTW I havent ordered mine, I WILL, so you can count at least one more.

THe Iphone almost has no space inside so putting a Mem card will compromise its design (look at the size of the sim card for god sakes!)

On a side note Apple Shares now are 700 and they are valued at 650B...



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 75, posted (2 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 4976 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 73):
If it's unnecessary it's too bulky. Space is at a premium.

That's just it - how is it unnecessary? It's an option I'm sure many would like to take advantage of, particularly with the larger capacity micro sd cards now available.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinesyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2039 posts, RR: 10
Reply 76, posted (2 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 4970 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Meanwhile, AT&T is reporting that it has already sold more iPhone 5's since it went on sale than any previous model in the same time period: http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pi...d=35376&mapcode=consumer|financial

Call me crazy, but I think that means people do care.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 77, posted (2 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 63):

I'm sorry but Mandy Patinkin (played Inigo Montoya) is my hubby's uncle and I cannot possibly look at that picture without busting out laughing.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 60):
That's an irrelevant argument, since all the major Android device makers make a complete and extremely capable device, so the specs actually matter.

No they do not. THe third-party apps crash left and right. The phone doesn't do basic things automatically like an iPhone. It blows through battery and charges slowly in the car. Etc. etc. etc. Not all of the Androids are actually good phones. My worst phone experience ever was with a Samsung CHARGE.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 78, posted (2 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
No they do not. THe third-party apps crash left and right. The phone doesn't do basic things automatically like an iPhone. It blows through battery and charges slowly in the car. Etc. etc. etc. Not all of the Androids are actually good phones. My worst phone experience ever was with a Samsung CHARGE

Varies significantly from phone to phone. And you have to be more discerning with apps than with the apple appstore.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 79, posted (2 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 78):
Varies significantly from phone to phone. And you have to be more discerning with apps than with the apple appstore.

Both of which are absolutely unacceptable to me. I want to know before I plop down the commitment and money that I am getting a phone that will work well for me.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 80, posted (2 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 4927 times:



Quoting Asturias (Reply 60):
That's an irrelevant argument, since all the major Android device makers make a complete and extremely capable device, so the specs actually matter.

Android is a standalone operating system plus a few Google apps.

Hardware manufacturers now assemble a bunch of components and upload Android to the result, often putting a superficially modified launcher UI on Android in order to make their devices look not quite as generically Android at least in the store, plus more or less well working drivers and support apps for nonstandard components.

That's just a world apart from Apple's approach of developing the hardware, the OS, standard applications and the supporting infrastructure including desktop software and online services as one unified product from the start, and supporting the result through several years with the same consistency.

It is not the same, even if a consistent, smoothly operating and well-supported system is not everybody's first priority. It is perfectly valid to prefer nominal features over that, even if they don't actually work all that well in practice.

You're making compromises either way – just different compromises.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 60):
The competition matches or beats Apple in both specs and the 'complete' device.

You see it this way. Others see it differently. Apple's profit share of the entire market (down(!) to 77% in the third quarter of 4S sales) says that they tend to win people who are really looking at the return value and who are willing to pay for it accordingly.

And their record user satisfaction plus doubled sales year over year say that the cost / return value relation is apparently pretty healthy.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
Comparing specs alone is useless anyway, it's not like Apple couldn't include it if they want to. It's why they didn't that I am interested in.

Indeed. Device design is a huge game of compromises. Which ones you're willing to make and which ones you're refusing defines the outcome.

In rough terms Apple's main priority has been the overall user experience – if something actually serves it in real life with the actually existing technology, they are moving heaven and earth to squeeze it in. If something just looks nice on a spec sheet but they cannot make it work well in practical use, they rather kick it out or postpone it until they can make it work as they think it should.

The result is that with the iPhone you can generally rely on everthing that's in it actually working properly in real life. Strange that that even needs to be mentioned.

Software updates and upgrades now span 3-4 years (the more than three years old iPhone 3GS will get its (probably!) final major iOS upgrade tomorrow). The ideal is to make you as satisfied with your product for as long as possible so you are willing to pay their prices again when the time comes (which may be later rather than sooner).

Android manufacturers, on the other hand, shove in everything plus the kitchen sink, just as long as it looks good on the spec sheet or in the store, pretty much regardless of its actual use in practice. Once the product is sold, you're mostly on your own.

Software updates are apparently only seen as an impediment for new sales, so they are cut as short as possible. The ideal is to make you as dissatisfied with your new device as soon as possible so you'll buy another one. The problem is that they still want you to buy another product from them at that, but customer loyalty is not very high as a result of their strategy.

Another tricky bit with Android is that its maker Google is an advertising company – they make their money with ad clicks; How satisfied you are with their Android product is completely irrelevant to them as long as they get their ad impressions, so some medium quality level is fully sufficient from their point of view.

Motivations and strategies are rather different, and their products reflect that.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 64):
The "features doesn't matter" argument is out of date these days.

Features matter, they just matter more if they actually work well in real life. And that is a whole different ball game.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
That's the thing about being wowed, isn't it? You can't really say until you see it. The first iPhone was "wow", because nobody expected something like that. It was completely innovative. About the iPhone 5, was there a single aspect that wasn't anticipated? Is there any feature of the iPhone 5 that hasn't been seen on another phone before? Yes, not in this design and in this combination, but combining stuff and making it work right isn't really innovative.
Novelty wears off. An actually satisfying user experience doesn't.

I don't buy expensive products for the feeling of them being new and surprising, I buy them for working well over the entire distance (usually several years).

Personal preferences differ on this, so competing manufacturers are pursuing different kinds of customers with different kinds of strategies.

For me, further refining an already excellent product piques my interest much more than jumping from one half-baked novelty product to a very different novelty product where pre-existing strengths were neglected, weaknesses persist and only new half-baked features are piled on top.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
Well it's the little things that matter. They're finally going ahead on NFC, for example - the adoption isn't there yet, but with more devices out in the open, it's going to develop.

The problem is that the Android (and the Meego) implementation is another example of a half-baked feature, and in this case it exposes devices to being breached (not any NFC transaction, but the actual device!) while waiting in a queue or even by walking by an attacker. And in many if not most affected devices this critical vulnerability will never be fixed.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing...droid-and-meego-using-nfc-exploits

So be careful what you wish for.

Apple usually rolls out new features of this kind only when they can make an actual, practical use case with it – which would need a substantial infrastructure to use it with which just isn't there.

I can see that Google is licking its chops for getting access to all their users' purchasing transaction which they can then link to those users' other information Google has already accumulated and then feed the aggregate to their advertising customers.

But where is the actual advantage for me? I don't see any. I already carry cash, bank cards and credit cards with me at all times. NFC would add nothing of value for me.

Apple's new Passbook app is something different – they have no interest in purchasing transaction data and apparently they are shying away from becoming a bank (which NFC might push them towards, with all its implications). But Passbook opens up its own, different use cases as demonstrated – and starting tomorrow it will work immediately on most of the 400 million iOS devices which are already out "in the wild" right back to the iPhone 3GS, without corporations having to roll out entirely new infrastructure to support it.

Even if there was an NFC feature on the new iPhone, I would insist on disabling it as completely as possible, but with Passbook I could see some practical uses which are not as easily replicated by the cards and cash I already carry anyway.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
The S3 keep the screen on as long as you're looking at it, because it tracks your eyes with the front camera. Doesn't sound like much - it's a brilliant feature once you've gotten used to it.

It's a band-aid to at least partially compensate for the extremely power-hungry OLED displays. The camera and particularly the CPU load required for the image processing don't come cheap in power consumption either, so the net gain is likely marginal (particularly since it then needs to operate the camera and CPU image processing even while the display is blanked).

Advanced LCDs have much lower power draw which makes this kind of thing simply redundant. Whether an iPhone saves a few seconds of backlight operation or not is pretty much irrelevant. It's being locked while it's being put away and that is completely sufficient.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
Also, face unlock is great.

And very unreliable, so not a security feature but primarily a gimmick for entertainment.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
Samsung also pioneered the quad-core on a mobile phone - worked so well even Apple adapted it.

Nope. The iPhone 5 is still a dual core, but its CPU is almost as fast with two cores already as Samsung's with four even when all four are actually fully used, which is very rare. So in practice apart from synthetic benchmarks the iPhone 5 will usually be faster even by sheer CPU power alone.

And even the iPhone 4S had already had a far more powerful graphics engine than any competing device, with the iPhone 5 about doubling that again. With very few applications actually CPU-bound these days, they are expanding their already substantial lead where performance matters the most.

And all that at much lower power consumption, allowing for a much more compact device.

According to preliminary information, Apple has apparently cooked up their own ARM processor cores for the first time to achieve both at the same time.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
New Android devices can use voice control with an online connection - major advantage over Apple if you're abroad a lot like me.

Nice if you don't have roaming and if the local voice control is actually sufficient for your needs at the time.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
Data usage graphs - does the iPhone have those? I'm not sure.

No. But my provider has a monitoring app which is sufficient for my needs.

Actual data use with the iPhone tends to be noticeably lower for similar tasks compared to Android, however, since Apple optimizes iOS for minimal consumption.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
1080p was first on Android, I understand the iPhone 5 will handle it as well.

The iPad 3 was the first mobile device to display 1080p. Only the new Kindle HDs will be able to do the same.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
If you've got a contact open on an S3, you can just bring the phone to your head and it will call the contact.

Which of the various numbers of that contact?

(On my iPhone, Siri automatically kicks in when put to my ear, even while locked.)

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
4G connectivity was pioneered on Android.

Translation: Even with the first-run chipsets which had absolutely atrocious and practically unusable battery consumption, it was nevertheless built in to gain a spec bullet point.

Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
If you're the user Apple develops their products for, and if you're willing to pay their prices, then you'll hardly ever find a better phone. But if you have different requirements (small phone / huge phone / physical keyboard / real camera / open system / customization / etc.), Android provides a powerful alternative.
Different compromises. Not necessarily fewer ones, if not more.

It is perfectly possible to end up with either after weighing each platform's properties against one's own priorities and preferences.

Actual user satisfaction ratings and intent to switch give a hint on how people think of their choice afterwards. Neither platform has a perfect score there, but there is a substantial skew.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
Yes, well, the fact that it's called iPhone 5 means this is the fifth iteration

No, it's actually the sixth iPhone model. The 4S was the fifth. Their numbering is seriously wonky, but after jumping to "3G" with the scond one already and iterating the number only on every second model, that's simply what they've stuck to. Nominally the 3G should have been "2" assuming the first one never got its "S" variant, but they couldn't resist and only started their now-active scheme with the 3G and 3GS.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 70):
Is it still not possible to expand memory or change battery in the iphone 5? I could never understand how on earth those things were deemed sensible.

The battery can of course be replaced, but since that is generally done several years down the road (if ever), it's not a practical issue. Additional batteries for usage extension are readily available and you can swap those even during an ongoing call, contrary to conventional batteries.

The device can be built more solid, lighter and more compact that way. Good choice from my perspective as a user (my previous iOS devices are all still in use with their original batteries).

Memory card slots sound like a great idea (just like floppy disks once did). In practice they force a lot of compromises, and not just on the mechanical level. Data protection is one issue (data on a recent iPhone is effectively unextractable for a thief because of hardware encrpytion); Fragmentation into multiple partitions, limited use of the external partition and the need for manual management including problems with consistent backups also arise.

There is quite a discrepancy between theoretical and actual advantages and disadvantages.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 72):
How do you figure? Other phones manage it perfectly well. A micro sd slot is hardly bulky or heavy.

The entire mechanics (socket cage, contacts, external cover) plus motherboard infrastructure would add quite a bit of bulk to a compact device like the iPhone. It matters less on much bulkier models, of course.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 75):
That's just it - how is it unnecessary? It's an option I'm sure many would like to take advantage of, particularly with the larger capacity micro sd cards now available.

I've got a 64GB iPhone. My entire music library fits on it, plus many gigabytes of apps and additional data. If my library was a lot bigger again, I might use iTunes Match to swap parts of it out to the cloud.

The number of people whose needs are still not met is further shrinking with every iteration of the storage space built in (128GB might come with an iPhone "5S" if they keep their previous schedule), and it's already rather small, I would say. Most people are already completely satisfied with 16 or 32GB.

And, as said, the internal storage on the iPhone is fully encrypted and hardened even against hardware intrusion. External SD cards are usually unsecured or only with weak protection that is relatively easily breached by a competent thief.

This is really an argument on the level of "What? No floppy drive?" back in the days of the first iMac. Remember where that argument went..?

[Edited 2012-09-18 04:27:37]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 81, posted (2 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 75):
That's just it - how is it unnecessary? It's an option I'm sure many would like to take advantage of, particularly with the larger capacity micro sd cards now available.

Nokia Lumia 920:

Quote:
"We started with the premise that we wanted an uncompromised physical form," he said, and a microSD card slot "would have defiled it." Besides, Shields added that not too many owners use that much storage anyway.
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Here-...0-has-no-microSD-card-slot_id34178


Galaxy Nexus / Nexus 7:

Quote:
We got tired of seeing OEMs include many GB of internal storage for music, while users were still running out of space for apps and data. This approach lets us merge everything on one volume, which is way better. - Dan Morrill, Android engineer at Google
http://www.androidcentral.com/why-nexus-devices-have-no-sd-card

Doesn't look like Apple is the only ones cutting back on SD cards.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 82, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 78):
Varies significantly from phone to phone. And you have to be more discerning with apps than with the apple appstore.

Pretty damning statement with regard to the Andriod eco-system.

The game is playing out as PC vs Mac all over again, with Android in the role of Microsoft, but in this case, Apple holding the bulk of the market.

Androids are more diverse in terms of software and hardware, but there's a price to be paid for that, which is uneven quality. The fact is that so much diversity means a huge test matrix for the software developers and a huge set of similar but different pieces of software that all end up being called Andriod.

Add to that negative the fact that the carriers tend to strand users on the same version of Android for the life of the device due in large part to the diversity of the Andriod eco-system, and you have some pretty negative aspects of being an Android user.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 83, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):


Add to that negative the fact that the carriers tend to strand users on the same version of Android for the life of the device due in large part to the diversity of the Andriod eco-system, and you have some pretty negative aspects of being an Android user.

I've yet to see that be the case. My HTC Evo 4G shipped with Android 2.1 Eclair. It's currently running Android 2.3 Gingerbread, getting an intermediate update to 2.2 Froyo along the way. My wife's Samsung Epic 4G similarly shipped with Eclair, got upgraded to Froyo, and then Gingerbread before she rooted it. She's currently running 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich on it. Had she not rooted it she would have been "stuck" on Gingerbread as there's no official update to ICS planned for that phone, but her contract was up so she could have gotten a new ICS or 4.1 Jelly Bean phone that way. Prior to that, she had a Samsung Moment which shipped with 1.5 Cupcake before getting an upgrade to Eclair.

Neither of us have ever had to be particularly "discerning" with our apps and I've never experienced any significant app crashes on my phone. I think it's a little hyperbolic to say apps crash "left and right" - that's just never been my experience since I came from WebOS to Android.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
The S3 keep the screen on as long as you're looking at it, because it tracks your eyes with the front camera. Doesn't sound like much - it's a brilliant feature once you've gotten used to it.


It's a band-aid to at least partially compensate for the extremely power-hungry OLED displays. The camera and particularly the CPU load required for the image processing don't come cheap in power consumption either, so the net gain is likely marginal (particularly since it then needs to operate the camera and CPU image processing even while the display is blanked).

Advanced LCDs have much lower power draw which makes this kind of thing simply redundant. Whether an iPhone saves a few seconds of backlight operation or not is pretty much irrelevant. It's being locked while it's being put away and that is completely sufficient.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
New Android devices can use voice control with an online connection - major advantage over Apple if you're abroad a lot like me.

Nice if you don't have roaming and if the local voice control is actually sufficient for your needs at the time.


Quoting Rara (Reply 66):
Data usage graphs - does the iPhone have those? I'm not sure.


No. But my provider has a monitoring app which is sufficient for my needs.

Actual data use with the iPhone tends to be noticeably lower for similar tasks compared to Android, however, since Apple optimizes iOS for minimal consumption.


Klaus, you are the only person I know of who can fault any truly "brilliant" features in an Android device!


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 85, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

Quoting TLG (Reply 84):

Klaus, you are the only person I know of who can fault any truly "brilliant" features in an Android device!

The minute they come to an Apple device, however...



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 86, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

Quoting TLG (Reply 84):
Klaus, you are the only person I know of who can fault any truly "brilliant" features in an Android device!

I don't disagree, but if you notice, this thread and the other two threads about Apple have been all about doing the exact same belittling of apple innovations, often with less merit than Klaus just stated.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 87, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 83):
Neither of us have ever had to be particularly "discerning" with our apps and I've never experienced any significant app crashes on my phone. I think it's a little hyperbolic to say apps crash "left and right" - that's just never been my experience since I came from WebOS to Android.

My experience was with a Samsung CHARGE. On the very first day I owned it, the battery died in about six hours of standby. I figured it was a fluke. The same thing happened the next day. I took it back to the store and complained. The salesman explained that the problem was that I had the LTE on (and there was no way to arrange a shortcut to turn it off), the WiFi on, the Bluetooth on, and the GPS off (there were shortcuts for these). So from that point on, I had to turn all of those features off unless I was using them, which was a pain. And when I had the phone plugged in to my car charger, it did not charge. In fact, sometimes, it continued to lose charge (although more slowly than if it weren't plugged in). At best, it would charge at about 1% per hour. A full charge out of the wall socket took six to ten hours.

Then there was an issue with the navigation program. One thing that I have an obsession about with a GPS program is the map view. I want a 2D North-up view. I'm an Eagle Scout and that's how I learned how to read a map. The built-in GPS didn't allow that and the only third-party app was the Navigon program, which I've never liked. I went along with it, but then I started having other trouble. First off, the Bluetooth wouldn't automatically kick in when I was driving. So when I got a call, I had to yank the audio cable out of the phone. But then I started getting the strangest phenomenon where when I started doing that, the MP3 player would kick in at full volume over the phone call. Kind of embarrassing to be on the phone with a patient when suddenly loud trance music kicks on.

The stability problems were outrageous. My iPhone might need a forced restart three or four times a year. The CHARGE needed to be re-started three times a day. And when it happened, I had to pull the battery out, count to ten, and then put it back in. Sometimes, it crashed in the middle of a phone call. Once, it crashed in my pocket and I had no idea until I found out six hours later that I'd missed four calls from the on-call answering service (a BIG no-no!).

All this was in spite of reading favorable reviews of this model of phone. All this was in spite of an impressive feature list.

I'd purchased this phone after dropping my iPhone and having the ear speaker break. So I took my broken iPhone to the Apple Store's Genius Bar and explained what I had done and asked if my phone could be repaired for cheaper than replacement. The Genius had a look, told me that the speaker failure was caused by my dropping it, thanked me for my honesty, and gave me a replacement phone for free as a one-time goodwill gesture.

So I finally just gave the $750 phone away. I'm not willing to take that sort of risk again. I know for a fact that the iPhone will perform. It might not have the gee-whizbang feature set of the Samsungs, but it will do what it can and it will do it reliably. In the end, I want a phone.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 88, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 83):
I've yet to see that be the case.

I imagine some vendors are different, but I've been on Gingerbread for 1.5 years now, no Ice Cream Sandwich for me (rumors say maybe) and no hint of Jelly Bean.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 83):
Had she not rooted it she would have been "stuck" on Gingerbread as there's no official update to ICS planned for that phone, but her contract was up so she could have gotten a new ICS or 4.1 Jelly Bean phone that way.

You're making my point: no upgrade for the phone, so your wife went out of her way and rooted it, and now, no support for the phone. If the phone is working well on ICS, then why won't the carrier do a legit upgrade?

Getting a new phone means getting a new contract or paying out of pocket, both poor choices from the customer's point of view. Given that she knows her current phone runs the new software well enough, it could easily lead to poor customer satisfaction.

It's clear why the vendors don't do the upgrades: it costs them money to run the huge test matrix of devices, apps, and OSes. It's much cheaper for them to not do that work and instead force you into a new phone with a new contract.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 89, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4789 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 88):

You're making my point: no upgrade for the phone, so your wife went out of her way and rooted it, and now, no support for the phone. If the phone is working well on ICS, then why won't the carrier do a legit upgrade?

Because the carrier's trying to sell a product. When you have bright shiny new Galaxy SIIIs and HTC Evo 4G LTEs that come with ICS out of the box and Jelly Bean coming down the pike, why spend time and resources developing and testing an ICS update to a 2-year old Galaxy S (that's Galaxy S, no bloody II or III) that most customers have replaced or will replace? Heck, even my wife would have replaced it with an SIII were it not for Sprint's LTE network not being up and running in the area yet. Were that working I'm sure she would have gone for an SIII, Evo 4G LTE, or a Photon Q two weeks ago when she became eligible for her 2-year upgrade.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 90, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4786 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 83):
I've yet to see that be the case. My HTC Evo 4G shipped with Android 2.1 Eclair. It's currently running Android 2.3 Gingerbread, getting an intermediate update to 2.2 Froyo along the way. My wife's Samsung Epic 4G similarly shipped with Eclair, got upgraded to Froyo, and then Gingerbread before she rooted it. She's currently running 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich on it. Had she not rooted it she would have been "stuck" on Gingerbread as there's no official update to ICS planned for that phone, but her contract was up so she could have gotten a new ICS or 4.1 Jelly Bean phone that way. Prior to that, she had a Samsung Moment which shipped with 1.5 Cupcake before getting an upgrade to Eclair

This mess that you describe is the why i have an iphone. Open box, charge it,.it works..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 91, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

Quoting TLG (Reply 84):
Klaus, you are the only person I know of who can fault any truly "brilliant" features in an Android device!

Every feature comes with advantages and downsides. Engineering is about weighing them against each other. That applies to Apple just the same as to every other manufacturer.

Since only the advantages were quoted before, I filled in the blanks. Major ones in case of the "auto-blanking" feature, minor ones for the voice command fallback.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 85):
The minute they come to an Apple device, however...

...there will already be a huge number of heavily opinionated posts, effusively harping on any valid or imaginary shortcomings of the device and particularly of its presumably imbecile users, so that I'll be completely busy cleaning out the worst of the worst.

If you re-read my posts about Apple products, you will discover that I consider tradeoffs to be a matter of course with any product, including Apple's. It's just that the blanks in the discussion tend to be on the other side of the tradeoff, so I'll fill them in as well.

I personally tend to agree with many if not most engineering tradeoff decisions Apple has made so far – if not as a user, then as a developer, understanding many of the reasons and priorities likely having gone into that decision.

As a counter-example I've always denounced the standard Apple earphones as junk which should better be left out entirely to spare the environment. I'll have to see whether the new EarPods will be the first I'd actually want to use, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

It is easy to project all kinds of suspicions and personal grudges into the discussion of such products and particularly with the position Apple has gained in recent years, but at the heart of the matter, product design is an engineering challenge, and most decisions are actually engineering decisions, particularly at Apple.

Ironically they are quite a bit more engineering-driven than marketing driven by comparison to most competitors, even though the reverse is often assumed because they don't jump on every technical opportunity to add the latest gadgets.

Good engineers just don't do that – they keep working until such new features actually work properly.

It's actually the sales guys who usually demand the longest possible feature lists, and good engineers just grudgingly give in to that, knowing the consequences of pushing immature technologies and half-baked features out to their users.

Quoting D L X (Reply 86):
I don't disagree, but if you notice, this thread and the other two threads about Apple have been all about doing the exact same belittling of apple innovations, often with less merit than Klaus just stated.

Thanks!  


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 92, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 90):

This mess that you describe is the why i have an iphone. Open box, charge it,.it works..

So you think software upgrades are a mess? I suppose they don't have those on an iPhone?



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 93, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 92):
So you think software upgrades are a mess? I suppose they don't have those on an iPhone?

?

Software upgrades are a cakewalk on an iphone. Especially since IOS 5. I click upgrade walk away for 15 minutes and everything is done.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 94, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4768 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 92):
So you think software upgrades are a mess? I suppose they don't have those on an iPhone?

No, you do.. it takes about 30 minutes.. It takes about 5 mouse clicks. and done! - works again

I have never ever, nor do i want to "root" any phone of mine..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 95, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 94):

No, you do.. it takes about 30 minutes.. It takes about 5 mouse clicks. and done! - works again

And that's precisely how software updates work on an Android too. Actually it takes 0 mouse clicks as all of the updates were OTA.

My wife's rooting was completely voluntary and a separate issue. It wasn't anything that *had* to be done. It took about 30 minutes as well. Not sure how many mouse clicks.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 96, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 92):
So you think software upgrades are a mess?

The mess is that many Android devices already come out with an obsolete OS version and either get no updates at all, only one or two and still stay far behind the current version for the duration, with the only recourse being the do-it-yourself installation of an unsupported and often fragile hack from shady sources.

Meanwhile, tomorrow all iPhones down to the iPhone 3GS will receive the brand-new latest iOS version for immediate installation, particularly cutting off any vulnerability exploits at the same time, many before those vulnerabilities even became known.

Most Android users are and remain exposed to known exploits for their outdated OS versions. Even without the messy state of the various Android app markets this makes for a rather chilling security situation.

I have rather sensitive personal data on my iOS devices. Being current on OS updates is one of the many necessary ways to protect them. And apart from the Nexus devices this is not even possible with an Android device, and even for those Google's support cuts out relatively soon.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 95):
And that's precisely how software updates work on an Android too. Actually it takes 0 mouse clicks as all of the updates were OTA.

Same under iOS – you just get every update or upgrade immediately on day one, not months or even years later with attackers being free to exploit the vulnerabilities Google had just made public when they released their Nexus-exclusive update. Plus the much longer support from Apple (more than double).

[Edited 2012-09-18 11:54:21]

User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 97, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 96):
with the only recourse being the do-it-yourself installation of an unsupported and often fragile hack from shady sources.

Generally speaking that's something most end users aren't going to do and the ones who do have the savvy to tell a "shady source" from a legitimate source like Team Cyanogen. Your concern for all of us poor dumb Android users is noted, though. I suppose I should pray to the tech gods that my next download from the Android market isn't malware-ridden garbage!



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 98, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 97):
Generally speaking that's something most end users aren't going to do and the ones who do have the savvy to tell a "shady source" from a legitimate source like Team Cyanogen.

How does that "savvy" materialize, exactly? I am pretty competent in computing matters, but I would not be able to validate a Cyanogen release (unless I'd put several months of my own work into it for even a cursory validation).

In Apple's case I do indeed have to trust them, but they are also directly liable for any wrongdoings and they have documented and obvious incentive to be very careful.

Embedding deliberate vulnerabilities into "fan baked" OS distributions like Cyanogen is comparatively easy and the contributors cannot be held liable, especially not at a local court. On top of that, those distributions often take many months to mature to the point of actually being useful and sometimes never do for less popular devices.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 97):
Your concern for all of us poor dumb Android users is noted, though.

I know that this kind of attitude is routinely applied to users of Apple products (including myself) by many posters, but I completely reject it either way.

I have absolutely nowhere stated or even just implied such an attitude. It is entirely your own fabrication.

I am often critical of products and commercial services. Professionals and companies can and have to take it. But I do not attack or demean customers and users of those vendors and products.

People have varying and individual reasons for their decisions. I may disagree with some of them, but their decisions are theirs, as are the consequences (negative and positive ones), with absolutely nobody deserving any kind of disrespect or abuse for merely having a different preference or priorities from mine (or vice versa, while we're at it!).

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 97):
I suppose I should pray to the tech gods that my next download from the Android market isn't malware-ridden garbage!

Prayers won't help you there any more than they would anywhere else. It is simply a matter of policies and technical design.

The Android markets have been tailored for easy developer access without any impediment, and that of course attracts criminals who can simply upload their malware at will, while they don't have a chance in the iOS App Store not least for the prior mandatory App validation. iOS is also more challenging to subvert due to various restrictions which are targeted specifically to security. Many attacks are simply impossible under iOS (such as the popular Android attacks via expensive text messaging services being invoked in the background).

As a consequence almost all currently active mobile malware targets Android and the risk of contracting it from the Android markets is substantially higher than from the iOS App Store (where it is almost zero).

Apple has deliberately faced much criticism about the restrictions in iOS and in the App Store, but particularly in security matters their approach has been fully vindicated, not least in direct comparison to Android.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 99, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 89):
Because the carrier's trying to sell a product. When you have bright shiny new Galaxy SIIIs and HTC Evo 4G LTEs that come with ICS out of the box and Jelly Bean coming down the pike, why spend time and resources developing and testing an ICS update to a 2-year old Galaxy S (that's Galaxy S, no bloody II or III) that most customers have replaced or will replace?

Simple: customer satisfaction. Clearly your answer is in line with the carrier's interest of getting customers hooked into a new device and a new contract versus the customer's interest of not having to replace phones just to get software upgrades.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 92):
So you think software upgrades are a mess?

Just to clarify: are you comparing "rooting" a device and thus making it unsupported to a legit software upgrade?

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 95):
My wife's rooting was completely voluntary and a separate issue. It wasn't anything that *had* to be done.

Congratulations to your wife having the spare time, energy, ability, etc to root her phone for absolutely no reason at all, but I don't see what that has to do with the rest of us.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 100, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 99):
Congratulations to your wife having the spare time, energy, ability, etc to root her phone

In the process eliminating critical security mechanisms, by the way, which is simultaneously the main reason why I vehemently warn against "jailbreaking" of iOS devices which has the same consequences.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 101, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 100):
In the process eliminating critical security mechanisms, by the way, which is simultaneously the main reason why I vehemently warn against "jailbreaking" of iOS devices which has the same consequences.

Indeed, the "chain of trust" on most systems starts with the presumption that the firmware is not tampered with, so by installing a rootkit you extend the "chain of trust" to whomever produced the rootkit, and of course, whomever that person extended the "chain of trust" to on your behalf, with or without your knowledge.

Maybe garnetpalmetto should ask his wife if she's aware of this.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 102, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 98):

I have absolutely nowhere stated or even just implied such an attitude. It is entirely your own fabrication.

Balderdash. I've never once seen you give Android or an Android device any credit for any feature. You very well may have, I freely admit that, but not that I've actually seen. If you'd care to demonstrate otherwise, I'll gladly provide an apology. But from what I've seen any feature is merely "a spec bullet point" or met with some other smug response. I'm not the only one around here who feels that way, so maybe there's something in your tone you need to reconsider.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 99):

Just to clarify: are you comparing "rooting" a device and thus making it unsupported to a legit software upgrade?

I'm not at all. In my post I wrote one sentence about rooting, the rest about how both devices my wife has had and the one device I've had have had several version updates. Mt99 made mention of the upgrade process being "a mess" and I was refuting that by stating that the carrier-provided upgrade process in all cases was a simple OTA process.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 99):
Clearly your answer is in line with the carrier's interest of getting customers hooked into a new device and a new contract versus the customer's interest of not having to replace phones just to get software upgrades.

You asked why Sprint wouldn't have put out ICS for her Epic 4G if there's a stable release and I provided why the carrier did that.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 99):

Congratulations to your wife having the spare time, energy, ability, etc to root her phone for absolutely no reason at all, but I don't see what that has to do with the rest of us.

Well hey, apparently I need to congratulate iOS users for having the spare time, to upgrade their phones since it's a comparable process in terms of time! So congratulations, all you iOS users for finding a spare 30 minutes from preaching the Gospel of Steve to do an OS upgrade! Again, it was part of refuting mt99's post that he'd never want to have to "root" a phone.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 98):

The Android markets have been tailored for easy developer access without any impediment, and that of course attracts criminals who can simply upload their malware at will, while they don't have a chance in the iOS App Store not least for the prior mandatory App validation. iOS is also more challenging to subvert due to various restrictions which are targeted specifically to security. Many attacks are simply impossible under iOS (such as the popular Android attacks via expensive text messaging services being invoked in the background).

Which is why I've had all of 0 malware attacks from the apps that I have? I guess I must be lucky!

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):

Maybe garnetpalmetto should ask his wife if she's aware of this.

There's no need to bold my name, thanks very much. And she's quite aware given that she's in IT as a software developer. Believe it or not, she's also a bit of an Apple fan girl but quite dislikes iOS compared to Android, although her Apple love is waning with design decisions of late (non user-servicable systems being her big gripe. She wants to be able to add her own RAM, replace her own battery, etc.), so in all likelihood her next computer will be a Windows system with some flavor of Linux on it. Considering Team Cyanogen has received the blessings of carriers and manufacturers and that the Team openly puts out their names into the world, they're on the up and up. Beyond that, she did extensive research in deciding whether or not to root knowing it would invalidate her warranty and waited until she was able to upgrade before doing so, so as to CYA in case anything went wrong. Beyond that Team Cyanogen has pretty transparent processes of choosing what aspects of dailies make it into release candidates and stable versions.

[Edited 2012-09-18 13:44:38]


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 103, posted (2 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
You asked why Sprint wouldn't have put out ICS for her Epic 4G if there's a stable release and I provided why the carrier did that.

Right, but all of this descended from:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):
Add to that negative the fact that the carriers tend to strand users on the same version of Android for the life of the device due in large part to the diversity of the Andriod eco-system, and you have some pretty negative aspects of being an Android user.

And while this statement isn't 100% true (you've named one vendor who didn't strand some subset of their customers on some subset of OS software for their devices), the essence of it is true (the Andriod ecosystem's diversity leads to negative aspects of being an Android user) and is being supported rather than refuted by your statements.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
Well hey, apparently I need to congratulate iOS users for having the spare time, to upgrade their phones since it's a comparable process in terms of time! So congratulations, all you iOS users for finding a spare 30 minutes from preaching the Gospel of Steve to do an OS upgrade!

If you are saying legit upgrades are comparable, I agree.

If you are saying that rooting a phone is comparable to a legit upgrade, I disagree, because doing so voids support on the phone and exposes the user to security issues.

In my experience, it's Andriod users who find themselves facing the rootkit approach to get upgrades more so than iOS users because the Android ecosystem is such a "mess" and so much more influenced by the desires of the carrier being put above the desires of the user.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 104, posted (2 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 4688 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):
Indeed, the "chain of trust" on most systems starts with the presumption that the firmware is not tampered with, so by installing a rootkit you extend the "chain of trust" to whomever produced the rootkit, and of course, whomever that person extended the "chain of trust" to on your behalf, with or without your knowledge.

That is one element of it, but the security impairment extends even further.

Official OS releases are cryptographically signed by the manufacturer (or by Google in Android's case) and normally they also validate the cryptographic signature of apps to be installed.

This is the main reason why you can only install apps from the App Store on an iOS device unless it has been tampered with. The OS will also refuse to execute any code which has not been installed with a proper signature, so even a malicious app having slipped through all security checks simply could not download and execute any code from the internet because that code would not be signed by Apple.

The situation on the Android side is similar by default, but there is the option to switch off this signature check ("allow installation of apps from other sources"). This makes it more flexible, but also removes another layer of protection.

For both systems "rooting" or "jailbreaking" the device on the one hand has the implication of installing an OS from dubious sources (Android "fan baked" versions) or having the official OS modified by dubious tools (iOS "Jailbreak" tools).

On the other hand in both cases the signature check is disabled because it would not be possible to run pirated versions of regular apps or otherwise unsanctioned apps that way which is one of the attractions of such a step (not for everybody, but for many).

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
Balderdash. I've never once seen you give Android or an Android device any credit for any feature. You very well may have, I freely admit that, but not that I've actually seen. If you'd care to demonstrate otherwise, I'll gladly provide an apology.

You are diverting. This was your claim to which I responded:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 97):
Your concern for all of us poor dumb Android users is noted, though.

This is an attitude which I have never shared or promoted and you need to either provide your claim with a direct quote supporting it, or retract it.

This kind of personal attacks is absolutely toxic and I completely reject it in every direction.

Opinions, preferences and products can be discussed, but judgment of others just due to topical disagreements is absolutely out of the question and also for good reason prohibited by the forum rules.

I would be relieved if that attitude wasn't regularly applied to users of Apple's products even so; You may expect me to reciprocate that popular attitude, but I completely refuse to do that.

I don't have much appreciation for Android, its related hardware products and the respective corporations, but its users have no part in that and are off limits. There is a clear distinction which I respect.

People don't have different preferences and priorities from mine because they were "stupid" or "evil", they simply make their decisions from a different point of view (and possibly different level of background knowledge, although mine is not absolute nor sacrosanct either), sometimes arriving at different conclusions, which is perfectly valid.

Discussing the reasons for one's decisions is what this forum is all about. Passing of personal judgment just has no place in that. This distinction must in fact remain, regardless of any topical disagreements and diverging opinions.

If you feel personally insulted just because of criticism of a product which you happen to use, you really need to take a step back to regain your perspective.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
Well hey, apparently I need to congratulate iOS users for having the spare time, to upgrade their phones since it's a comparable process in terms of time! So congratulations, all you iOS users for finding a spare 30 minutes from preaching the Gospel of Steve to do an OS upgrade! Again, it was part of refuting mt99's post that he'd never want to have to "root" a phone.

The operative difference is that iOS upgrades and updates are always up-to-date and immediately available to all users at the same time, with no hunting down of model-specific updating schedules or inofficial firmwares even for recent models.

Tomorrow all devices which will ever run iOS 6 will receive their upgrade if their users want them to. That's all there is to it.

My old iPhone 3GS can be just as current for its new user as my 4S and DocLightning's new iPhone 5 when it arrives.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
Which is why I've had all of 0 malware attacks from the apps that I have?

That you know of. Your private information may already have been extracted. The same may apply to mine, theoretically.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
I guess I must be lucky!

The probabilities of falling victim to malware are just vastly different. On Android it is a very real and pretty common occurrence (including criminal spyware and direct financial damage), on iOS that risk has so far been effectively nonexistent.

iOS 6 now erects additional security boundaries, such as fine-grained per-application privacy access controls under control of the user.

Google has attempted to weed out at least the worst of the malware from at least their own market, but apparently they intend to stick to their general "hands off" approach overall, leaving the market open to direct access for every developer, benevolent or malicious.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 105, posted (2 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 4674 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Features matter, they just matter more if they actually work well in real life. And that is a whole different ball game.

The "in real life" argument is a peculiar one though. One person's "real life" is very different from another's. Some people like some features, others like others. The more new features you have the more people you are going to please. If those features are at the expense of something else (e.g. the basics) then I'd agree that that's a problem. IMO that's no longer the case on the Androids I'm interested in. Compared to the ones I played with 2 years ago they are a different beast altogether.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
And very unreliable, so not a security feature but primarily a gimmick for entertainment.

E.g. Siri.

The thing about unreliable new features is that they tend in subsequent iterations to become reliable new features. You might say that they shouldn't be released to market until they're ultra-reliable, and that's a fair point. However I would say if it's a non-critical and non-OS component I'll take an unreliable first version over nothing at all.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Good engineers just don't do that – they keep working until such new features actually work properly.

Engineers have no say in the matter. Product Management decides when the features are released, and correctly so. Sometimes it makes sense to release before the product is perfect, sometimes not. One is not better than the other.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4649 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 103):
If you are saying that rooting a phone is comparable to a legit upgrade, I disagree, because doing so voids support on the phone and exposes the user to security issues.

That's not entirely accurate. I once RMA'd an Android device that was rooted with a custom ROM installed. And no, I did not lie to or deceive Customer Service.

I have to wonder if carriers know that by choosing to put an Android device on the market the chance remains high that it will be rooted and customized. Therefore, do they "turn a blind eye?" I don't know, but I wonder...

-TLG


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2167 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Software updates are apparently only seen as an impediment for new sales, so they are cut as short as possible. The ideal is to make you as dissatisfied with your new device as soon as possible so you'll buy another one.

Correct. I got the Motorola Milestone (European Droid), which was the first major mainstream Android phone, and the manufacturer's support has been appaling. After some late and half-baked software updates, Motorola abandonned the device.

However, the community has kept on developing and improving the phone and I'm now running a current ROM modification which makes the phone work as well as it never has before. I bought a new battery after 2.5 years and a new SD card because memory was running low, I could just plug them in, and the phone is now a joy to use. I'm not planning on getting a new phone anytime soon, and that's nearly 3 years after I bought it. Also the build quality is still fantastic. All that was made possible by Android's openness and the enthusiasm of the community, and Google's willingness to work with them.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Google is an advertising company %u2013 they make their money with ad clicks; How satisfied you are with their Android product is completely irrelevant to them

Incorrect. They want as many users as possible and have therefore every incentive to make it as useful as possible.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
For me, further refining an already excellent product piques my interest much more than jumping from one half-baked novelty product to a very different novelty product where pre-existing strengths were neglected, weaknesses persist and only new half-baked features are piled on top.

Your choice - I just pointed out to another user that the new iPhone isn't innovative by any stretch of the word. I acknowledged in my post that Apple is amazingly good in matching software and hardware and optimizing user experience, so I don't know who you are addressing there.



Next, someone (D L X I think) asked what innovative features had actually been featured on Android phones recently, implying that there weren't any. I gave a short list off the top of my head, without any judgement, and you then proceeded to pick them apart and point out that they weren't of any value for you. While I appreciate your input, note that I was making another point. The innovations are there, people have to decide themselves whether they find them useful or not. I'm not making that judgement for them.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Even if there was an NFC feature on the new iPhone, I would insist on disabling it as completely as possible, but with Passbook I could see some practical uses which are not as easily replicated by the cards and cash I already carry anyway.

Suit yourself. I personally thing no-touch payment is the dog's bollocks and I can't wait to see widespread adoption.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
It's a band-aid to at least partially compensate for the extremely power-hungry OLED displays. The camera and particularly the CPU load required for the image processing don't come cheap in power consumption either, so the net gain is likely marginal (particularly since it then needs to operate the camera and CPU image processing even while the display is blanked).

I wasn't aware of this to be a battery-saving issue, and I don't think it is, because the phone doesn't turn off immediately when you turn away. It seems more of a comfort thing to me. Often I have to keep my phone awake when I read a text or just pause thinking about something, so the gain in comfort is really noticeable.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
And very unreliable, so not a security feature but primarily a gimmick for entertainment.

Don't know, don't care, I don't lock my phone anyhow so I wouldn't have any use for it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Nope. The iPhone 5 is still a dual core, but its CPU is almost as fast with two cores already as Samsung's with four even when all four are actually fully used, which is very rare.

Again, just an example of an Android phone being innovative. I'm happy with my single core right now.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
The iPad 3 was the first mobile device to display 1080p. Only the new Kindle HDs will be able to do the same.

I was talking about 1080p recording, and before you point out that it isn't actually needed or something: I don't consider it a useful feature, but well, it's a feature.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Which of the various numbers of that contact?

Good question, no idea.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Translation: Even with the first-run chipsets which had absolutely atrocious and practically unusable battery consumption, it was nevertheless built in to gain a spec bullet point.

Again, I don't know and I don't care. I personally fail to see where one would ever need more than HSDPA+ speeds on a phone. That's insanely fast as it is.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):
The game is playing out as PC vs Mac all over again, with Android in the role of Microsoft, but in this case, Apple holding the bulk of the market.

No, Android has a larger user base. Even more so, there are certainly parallels. Microsoft designed a product that would run on as many platforms as possible, for as many users as possible, which came with its own share of problems, notably stability and security. Apple designed an operating system for their own machines, without support for any other machines, and tried to optimize the hardware-software interaction as perfectly as possible.

It can be argued that it's thanks to Microsoft that the explosion of PC use in the 1990s took place, because it enabled so many hardware manufacturers to enter the market und develop competitive products, and then in turn software developers who could build on the Windows platform. And likewise it's thanks to Android that the smartphone market has gotten so large and we see so many devices of various sizes, features, prices, quality ranges, customizations, and so on. Thanks to Android, a person without much money can walk into a store today and buy a current smartphone for 100 Euros. Will it be as smooth and powerful as a new iPhone? Hardly, at one sixth of the price. It's a consumer choice.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):
Androids are more diverse in terms of software and hardware, but there's a price to be paid for that, which is uneven quality.

Yes, I don't feel threatened by that, thank you. I'm an adult person and I don't need a control-obsessed company to weed through any content I might download on my own device. I'm comfortable with the thought of some phones not being as good as others. I don't lose sleep over the presence of malware in the Android Market. I'm capable of finding and installing modified ROMs. I want to know what's inside my phone and how it works.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 90):
This mess that you describe is the why i have an iphone. Open box, charge it,.it works..

   Exactly. It's simply the perfect phone for a certain user type, and nobody would ever deny that.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 108, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 107):
All that was made possible by Android's openness and the enthusiasm of the community, and Google's willingness to work with them.

I agree with this and the rest of your post as well.

I hope we something in the future where there will be a software vendor or two that crops up and provides support for phone software across different platforms and across different carrier networks. In essence, something like Red Hat, SUSE, etc. does in the Linux enterprise space. That'd allow users to have the comfort of having a support channel at the same time as having a lot more control and predictability of their software experience. It'd also introduce players in the ecosystem who could keep Google itself in check and hopefully allow users more control over advertising content, something Google clearly does not want to do (see Chrome for an example of Google run amok).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 109, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Intermediate topical update: The general indifference to the iPhone 5 has by now pushed delivery dates back to "3-4 weeks".

User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 110, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4540 times:



Seems the benchmarks for the new iphone will make it a home run in sales.


The devil is in the details !!! not he bells and whistles!



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 111, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 107):
Next, someone (D L X I think) asked what innovative features had actually been featured on Android phones recently, implying that there weren't any.

I did say that, but your implication is wrong. I was getting at another poster's dogged belittling of iPhone features as not being innovative, so I asked him what he would consider innovations on the Galaxy SIII. His answer was basically "stuff, amazing stuff." A non-answer.

You bailed him out some, but my point was made. He can't belittle all the things that are put together in the new iPhone as not being noteworthy then identify those same kinds of things in the SIII as great innovations.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 112, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 109):
Intermediate topical update: The general indifference to the iPhone 5 has by now pushed delivery dates back to "3-4 weeks".

     

Yup. Not selling well at all. Nobody cares.

-OR-

Buncha Apple Fanboy Sheep who would buy a pile of rubber dog doo if it had an Apple symbol on it.

Take your pick.  
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 110):
Seems the benchmarks for the new iphone will make it a home run in sales.

Whichever Android is released next month will run faster than the iPhone 5. That's just how the game works. If you build a better mousetrap, someone else will build a better mouse.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 113, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4484 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Whichever Android is released next month will run faster than the iPhone 5. That's just how the game works. If you build a better mousetrap, someone else will build a better mouse.

Agree 100% the game of benchmarks is a never-ending pissing contest, we have to take in to account reports of how long the batteries last on normal usage, combined with a very powerful (read speedy) operation, it makes the whole experience with a product much better.

The main point on the Iphone is that it performs and its very easy to work, update and operate, if you don't like hacking stuff, its the way to go, hence a lot of women LOVE the Iphone, I guess Apple did not tamper with size because women have smaller hands and making it bigger would make it not that easy to work for women...

Anyhoo It seems Apple is thinking of rolling back the introduction of the iPhone 5 on 22 countries because a lot of people DONT CARE AT ALL.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 114, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

I will concede that the hate and disdain for Apple products does baffle me at times.

I do suffer quite a bit of "ribbing" when I'm using my iPhone...but it's more apparent when I am using my iPad. Most of the comments are usually of the notion of "fanboy". The overall "advice" if you can call it, is to ditch my iPad and buy a Nexus 7 tablet. Funny how they always try to push me to Android  
I do expect the smaller iPad to resoundingly destroy the Nexus 7 however.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 115, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Whichever Android is released next month will run faster than the iPhone 5. That's just how the game works. If you build a better mousetrap, someone else will build a better mouse.

Not necessarily. Smartphones are much more limited by their graphics processor than by their actual CPU in almost all cases (with the GPU by now taking on some of the computing work as well, at least under iOS).

And the year-old iPhone 4S is still the one with the fastest GPU one year later, but only for another day. It's just not an Android device that's supplanting it at the top.

Not too bad for a device that's allegedly losing out to absolutely everything on the market on specs.

The iPhone 5 CPU will be interesting to analyze – there is currently no ARM core on the market which could provide the kind of performance it apparently does at the indicated clock (1.05GHz), nor is such a core even announced, particularly not at the low power consumption it apparently already proves in the hands of journalists.

Some parameters are becoming visible, though: Such as the instruction set extension it uses (one of the standard ARM vector extensions), but particularly that it seems to have a massively boosted memory interface, which is also a necessity for the increased graphics performance.

At this point Apple is the only manufacturer which has the entire product in its own hands, from CPU design through OS development and applications up to the direct end user relationship.

They've just shifted up another gear.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 116, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 113):
Agree 100% the game of benchmarks is a never-ending pissing contest

Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Efficiency is also a never-ending pissing contest between Airbus and Boeing (or GE/RR/PW). As a result, we have faster and faster electronic devices (and more and more efficient aircraft).

Quoting Klaus (Reply 115):
The iPhone 5 CPU will be interesting to analyze – there is currently no ARM core on the market which could provide the kind of performance it apparently does at the indicated clock (1.05GHz), nor is such a core even announced, particularly not at the low power consumption it apparently already proves in the hands of journalists.

Some parameters are becoming visible, though: Such as the instruction set extension it uses (one of the standard ARM vector extensions), but particularly that it seems to have a massively boosted memory interface, which is also a necessity for the increased graphics performance.

ARM core? Instruction set extension? Vectors?   

Forgive me; I'm just a lowly physician. I'm not smart enough to understand these things.   

English, pleeze?


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 117, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4445 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 116):
ARM core? Instruction set extension? Vectors?

ARM core is just that; it's the core of your arm, i.e how much muscle power it takes to hold it up. He's basically saying the iPhone is light.

Instruction set extension- that's an extra appendix they had to put in the iPhone 5's manual to describe how to turn it on. Including those extra instructions has made it much faster to use.

Vector is the stage name of Nigerian rapper Olanrewaju Ogunmefun. Not totally sure how this fits into things.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 118, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 109):
Intermediate topical update: The general indifference to the iPhone 5 has by now pushed delivery dates back to "3-4 weeks".

Or a sign of production problems   


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 119, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 117):
ARM core is just that; it's the core of your arm, i.e how much muscle power it takes to hold it up. He's basically saying the iPhone is light.

Instruction set extension- that's an extra appendix they had to put in the iPhone 5's manual to describe how to turn it on. Including those extra instructions has made it much faster to use.

Vector is the stage name of Nigerian rapper Olanrewaju Ogunmefun. Not totally sure how this fits into things.

   Seems legit.

Quoting cmf (Reply 118):
Or a sign of production problems

I see your glass is half-empty, huh?  


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 120, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
Comparing specs alone is useless anyway, it's not like Apple couldn't include it if they want to. It's why they didn't that I am interested in.

Oh that's deep duuuude... Apple products are like jazz ... it's the notes that they don't play that really matter!

     
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
No they do not. THe third-party apps crash left and right. The phone doesn't do basic things automatically like an iPhone. It blows through battery and charges slowly in the car. Etc. etc. etc. Not all of the Androids are actually good phones. My worst phone experience ever was with a Samsung CHARGE.

No, you couldn't be more wrong. Third party apps are incredibly stable and the Google Play marketplace is really safe and of high standards.

I don't know about your particular phone, but yeah it sounds very outlandish; if that was the Android experience or the Samsung - or whatever - experience, nobody would buy those devices.

My first Android phone was a Galaxy S, loads up to full battery in an hour, or so and lasts 24 hours at least with moderate usage.

You're going to have to accept that whatever your experience was, it was complete bullpucky.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 102):
I'm not the only one around here who feels that way, so maybe there's something in your tone you need to reconsider.

Imagine the smuggest fanboi on the internet. What username comes to mind?  

(indeed)

Quoting D L X (Reply 111):
I did say that, but your implication is wrong. I was getting at another poster's dogged belittling of iPhone features as not being innovative, so I asked him what he would consider innovations on the Galaxy SIII. His answer was basically "stuff, amazing stuff." A non-answer.

Whine, whine, I'm not doing your googling for you.

Get over it already, please. Don't discuss things by giving the person you're debating homework!

There is an article in the OP, it mentiones that Apple doesn't impress or excite like it used to - I think there's something to that. The features of new Android phones are readily available on the internet. I think they're way more innovative and exciting than Apple's iPhone.



Tonight we fly
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 121, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4346 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
Quoting D L X (Reply 111):
I did say that, but your implication is wrong. I was getting at another poster's dogged belittling of iPhone features as not being innovative, so I asked him what he would consider innovations on the Galaxy SIII. His answer was basically "stuff, amazing stuff." A non-answer.

Whine, whine, I'm not doing your googling for you.

  
What Asturias thinks is innovative on an new Nokia, HTC, and Samsung phones is not going to be on Google.

You made the bold claim, now back it up. To remind you of the exchange, here it is:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 58):
Quoting D L X (Reply 55):
Help me out, Asturias. What is innovative and exciting about Nokia, HTC, and Samsung's 2012 lineup?

What's exciting is that they're not copying the iPhone, but making their own way and doing an amazing job at it - Android has surpassed iOS a while back now in terms of features, flexibility, compatibilty and reliability and Windows 8 looks amazing and an exciting alternative to the established systems.

Your answer was vacuous.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
Don't discuss things by giving the person you're debating homework!

Hah! And to think you just accused me of whining.
If you don't actually have any basis for saying that these companies were making innovative and exciting things without doing homework, then yes, you should be expected to do your homework to back up your claim. Either that, or just admit that you do not know.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
The features of new Android phones are readily available on the internet. I think they're way more innovative and exciting than Apple's iPhone.

See, this is what I mean. WHICH features of new Android phones are in your opinion way more innovative and exciting than Apple's iPhone?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 122, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 121):
What Asturias thinks is innovative on an new Nokia, HTC, and Samsung phones is not going to be on Google.

Evidently what 'Asturias' thinks is innovative is highly subjective, just as what 'D L X' thinks is innovative.

Thus irrelevant; but if you are actually interested in knowing what is innovative in the devices of other manufacturers than the Cupertino one, Google it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 121):
Hah! And to think you just accused me of whining.

I pointed it out, as an observation, no accusation made. I could also point out that you're writing in the english language, that would not be an accusation.

Quoting D L X (Reply 121):
See, this is what I mean. WHICH features of new Android phones are in your opinion way more innovative and exciting than Apple's iPhone?

I could give you an answer, but it would be my opinion, like telling you what my favorite color is. In other words, what would be the point?

Really. If I say feature X is exciting and innovative, then what?



Tonight we fly
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 123, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 122):
Evidently what 'Asturias' thinks is innovative is highly subjective, just as what 'D L X' thinks is innovative.

Sure it is! That's why I asked your opinion.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 122):
I could give you an answer, but it would be my opinion, like telling you what my favorite color is. In other words, what would be the point?

Really. If I say feature X is exciting and innovative, then what?

I want to see if you are going to give the same treatment to Android phones as you did to the iPhone. It is my suspicion that the innovations you chide as being trite in the iPhone you will laud as being exceptional in an Android. You spent a lot of time on this forum trashing iPhones as not being innovative or exciting. So, as a baseline, it is absolutely in bounds to ask you what you think is innovative and exciting about Android. So far, all I have from you is that they're not copying iPhones.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 124, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 123):
I want to see if you are going to give the same treatment to Android phones as you did to the iPhone. It is my suspicion that the innovations you chide as being trite in the iPhone you will laud as being exceptional in an Android.

OK, just to humor you:

I think it is exciting to be able to install apps from any source I like, from Google Play or just from a source of my choice.
I think the feature to hang up or go silent when the phone is turned down is innovative (Galaxy SIII and HTC One)
I think the pattern locking system is really innovative.
I think it is innovative that the screen doesn't sleep when I am looking at the phone (GSIII)
I think it is an innovative use of NFC to use it as a quick and easy file sharing feature (GSIII, ICS and NFC enabled devices)
I think the fast camera of the GSIII, snapping photos off instantly, is exciting.
I think the large AMOLED screens with that immense contrast are exciting.
I think it is innovative to be able to put a removable battery and a micro SD card slot in a really thin phone, pretty much as thin as the equivalent iPhone, the iPhone 5 being only 1mm thinner than the GSIII for instance.

now whether you think those things are exciting or innovating or that they are equivalent to things I find trite on the iPhone, is highly subjective and honestly not interesting to me.

Quoting D L X (Reply 123):
You spent a lot of time on this forum trashing iPhones as not being innovative or exciting.

Ahaha no, it takes a very short time to point that out  

Also, it seems that the line from most iPhone fanatics has been "it's the iPhone 5, what do you expect from a derivative?"

In other words, yeah people pretty much accept that the iPhone 5 is neither exciting nor innovative, but it is slightly bigger, slightly faster and runs their apps like the iPhone before them.

Evidently this makes Apple fanatics happy enough, but results in a big yawn from a great deal of people.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 124):
In other words, yeah people pretty much accept that the iPhone 5 is neither exciting nor innovative, but it is slightly bigger, slightly faster and runs their apps like the iPhone before them.

What's wrong with that exactly?
The sheer number of people who have pre-ordered the new iPhone 5 can't be wrong can they? Or are they just unenlightened sheep who follow anything that Apple put out?
Apple right now aren't pushing the boundaries of what they're capable of, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you want the latest technology and hardware then by all means purchase another phone. But if you want something that for the most part is reliable, easy to use and does everything most people need it to do then an iPhone is just as good as any other.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 126, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
What's wrong with that exactly?

Nothing 'wrong' with that. Someone is leading innovation, it just isn't Apple. I suppose it has more to do with expectations than anything else.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
The sheer number of people who have pre-ordered the new iPhone 5 can't be wrong can they?

Even more people buy Android phones every day. Surely all those people can't be wrong?

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
Apple right now aren't pushing the boundaries of what they're capable of, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't pusing the boundaries of their capabilities.. but one thing is certain: they're not the leaders of innovation any longer. Whether by choice or by necessity.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
If you want the latest technology and hardware then by all means purchase another phone. But if you want something that for the most part is reliable, easy to use and does everything most people need it to do then an iPhone is just as good as any other.

Agreed

  



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 127, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
No, you couldn't be more wrong. Third party apps are incredibly stable and the Google Play marketplace is really safe and of high standards.

So my Android phone didn't suck? It didn't crash? I'm making it up?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
You're going to have to accept that whatever your experience was, it was complete bullpucky.

All I can say is they didn't produce that phone for very long.

Right now, Apple's big problem is their maps. I don't know why they had to go fixing something that wasn't broken. I very much hope that they get this fixed very quickly because maps are one of the things that smartphone users use their phones for the most.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 127):
So my Android phone didn't suck? It didn't crash? I'm making it up?

I'm sure you had problems. But it is dangerous to apply the experience from just one unit as indicative how all units work. Even though manufactured the same they are "individuals" and some have more problems. Then you add different SW and they create another layer of potential problems.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 127):
Right now, Apple's big problem is their maps. I don't know why they had to go fixing something that wasn't broken.

The cost of wanting to split with google.


User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4267 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 123):
I want to see if you are going to give the same treatment to Android phones as you did to the iPhone. It is my suspicion that the innovations you chide as being trite in the iPhone you will laud as being exceptional in an Android.

I am not trying to take sides here, but most of the pro-Apple contributors on this forum are doing this very thing, in reverse of course. I still have to wonder; why are iPhone users all excited over features on the iPhone 5 that have been around for months already? And why is Apple still called "innovative", or similar things, because of these features?

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
The sheer number of people who have pre-ordered the new iPhone 5 can't be wrong can they? Or are they just unenlightened sheep who follow anything that Apple put out?

- Could be.
- It's been said that Apple could put their logo on (insert any kind of feces here) and users would buy it. While that's very far-fetched and of course not true, a valid point is made.

Now, just to show my attempt at objectivity, here's a link to an article written by an Android fan, with faults he finds with the new Jelly Bean OS. http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/09...18/ux-things-i-hate-about-android/ And I agree...

I am also wondering if the Apple Maps are as bad as the media makes them out to be. An honest question; no digs here.

-TLG


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 4
Reply 130, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4256 times:

No public transit directions is the killer for me on Apple maps. Fortunately I found that out just before I was going to update to iOS6.

I'm very surprised they didn't add this feature, although I gather it's coming at some point.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 131, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 81):
Doesn't look like Apple is the only ones cutting back on SD cards.

I just can't understand such a trend. I mean, unless phones are going to ship with 100-200Gb memory inbuilt then let the user decide how much more they want. We will probably soon have 128Gb micro SD available. On a larger screen this really comes into its own, being able to have a good video library for boring waits or trips away. It's certainly not wrecking the look of my phone having an SD slot.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 78):
Varies significantly from phone to phone. And you have to be more discerning with apps than with the apple appstore.

Pretty damning statement with regard to the Andriod eco-system.

Not damning at all. Just a different approach. Liberating in a way, puttint more responsibility on the end user. Offers more choice ultimately, admittedly with the pay-off that there is an amount of crap you'd be silly to touch, but also that there is a ton of great stuff for free. No problem at all.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3677 posts, RR: 5
Reply 132, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 131):
I just can't understand such a trend.

From the top of my head, I would assume they just do it for the money.

Difference between iPhone 16GB and iphone 32GB: ~$100 - a ridiculous price for 16GB in our day and age in my opinion.

On the other hand, a pretty good 16GB SD card that could have made your 16GB phone into a 32GB phone costs $20 - and that is the Extreme series from Sandisk.

So if you are a user that requires a lot of storage, the phone manufacturer can make a killing out of you, instead of giving you the option of using cheap memory cards - from which they would make no money.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21520 posts, RR: 53
Reply 133, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4217 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 116):
ARM core? Instruction set extension? Vectors?   

Forgive me; I'm just a lowly physician. I'm not smart enough to understand these things.   

English, pleeze?

Well, being a certified physician pretty much excludes a lack of smarts being in play there.

Even many if not most people in the IT field don't really have deeper background insight into these topics; There's a lot of half-baked information out there.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 117):
ARM core is just that; it's the core of your arm, i.e how much muscle power it takes to hold it up. He's basically saying the iPhone is light.

Instruction set extension- that's an extra appendix they had to put in the iPhone 5's manual to describe how to turn it on. Including those extra instructions has made it much faster to use.

Vector is the stage name of Nigerian rapper Olanrewaju Ogunmefun. Not totally sure how this fits into things.

Excellent and creative explanation!  bigthumbsup 

I can only contribute a much less exciting one myself, as I know it:

The interesting thing about the A6 is that it falls out of line with what has been known before.

In the iPhone 2G, 3G and 3GS Apple had used off-the-shelf processors just like everybody else, quite similar to how they and every other manufacturer are plugging ready-made Intel CPUs into their Macs or PCs.

Starting with the iPad 1 and then the iPhone 4 they started to bake their own CPUs (A4 and A5), but they licensed complete, prepared schematics from ARM (a british CPU architecture firm, actually similar to building architecture firms in selling designs, not physical products), just with added components on the same chip such as graphics processors and increasingly also special-purpose logic such as audio and image processors. They've had Samsung then bake the physical chips from their assembled designs (incorporating ARM's).

The actual processor schematics they had licensed for that are also used by many other chip manufacturers, so apart from some tweaking they had pretty much the same processing power at comparable clock speeds as the other manufacturers with their different chips, but based on the same schematics.

With the A6 the preliminary benchmark figures appear to indicate a departure even from that previous course, however, since it's just too powerful for the clock speed it runs at and for the power it consumes. There's a discrepancy, which appears to indicate that they've gone beyond just tweaking licensed schematics.

ARM is not just the name of the company, it's also the name of the platform (similar to Intel), meaning software made for the ARM platform will run on all compatible ARM CPUs.

Almost all manufacturers of physical chips which can run ARM software do indeed just use the complete schematics licensed from ARM (I skip over another distinction within that which is marginal to this point).

There had been only one company which had not just taken the (relatively cheap) schematic licenses for making chips, but which has licensed the architecture itself: Qualcomm. They've been the only ones taking the much more expensive platform license, actually designing their own schematics for ARM-compatible CPUs, similar to AMD designing completely different CPUs which can just still run regular code written originally for PCs with Intel chips (AMD has a license from Intel for that – and vice versa, but that's again a separate story).

Qualcomm was moderately successful in doing that; Their ARM-compatible CPUs were a little faster and more capable than the original ARM designs under comparable circumstances, just not a lot. Most mobile phones and many other devices contain ARM-compatible processors, some of them from Qualcomm.

The interesting thing is now that Apple has in recent years made two substantial acquisitions of CPU-designing firms, without actually using their previous designs but hiring their staff and absorbing their patents. They have also taken the same expensive ARM platform license as Qualcomm.

All in all they've spent about half a billion Dollars on this endeavour, just with no actual product coming out of it.

That is, until the iPhone 5.

Its processor's performance appears to be inconsistent with any of ARM's CPU designs – and with Qualcomm's, for that matter. It looks to be doing too much work with each clock cycle at too little power consumption. That's why the conclusion is that it's likely the first new design actually cooked up by Apple themselves, being more optimized to being used particularly in Apple's iOS devices.

CPU design is extremely challenging, with many parallels to motor design in the car industry. Designing a new one with higher power output at reduced energy consumption and maximum reliability at the same time is what it's all about, and it is difficult and progress can be slow.

It is very similar to optimizing existing programs, running on the same computer and doing the exact same thing, just faster, by eliminating redundant operations which just consume resources but don't make any meaningful contribution to the actually intended result. That is just a lot harder than it sounds, and even more so when it's about CPU design optimization.

It looks like Apple has made a pretty big step there, so as before, at competitors and special service contractors they're already preparing their ablation tools and acid baths in order to analyze the A6 chip and how it works since Apple of course keeps all the details under wraps.

The original ARM licensed floor plans are recognizable on an exposed chip; It looks as if there will be some interesting deviations from the usual designs.


To the matter of vector units: It's what made the first supercomputers extremely fast (remember the stylish Cray supercomputers from the 1980s from scientific publications?) by pumping big chunks of similar data through parallel pipelines of computing logic in particularly rapid succession, performing identical operations on lots of numbers at the same time.

With CPU clock frequencies stagnating due to physical boundaries in recent years, the major CPU designers have progressively incorporated former supercomputer technologies into chips first for regular servers, then desktop computers, then laptops and by now even mobile pocket devices.

A modern smartphone is in many technical ways a descendant of the supercomputers of "ancient times", and vector units are particularly close to them. Even performance-wise a modern smartphone exceeds older supercomputers, as with storage and memory capacity.

Apps like iMovie and iPhoto on iOS, but also GarageBand and many others particularly draw their real-time response even during the manipulation of huge amounts of complex data exactly from such vector units. Graphics processors (which are also part of smartphone processors, in addition to the "regular" CPUs which are running the actual programs) also use very similar mechanisms in order to provide real-time animations and 3D images.


In recent years multiple CPUs have also been crammed into a single chip – they are effectively running multiple programs or multiple parts of the same program independently at the same time (actual parallel processing). It's another reason why modern computers are still getting faster, despite stagnating clock frequencies. These multiple CPUs on the same chip are simply called processor cores in distinction to actual multiple separate CPU chips, even though the effect is pretty much the same.

The iPhone 4S and 5 and the iPad 2 and 3 each have two processor cores on their single chip ("dual core"). Many PCs and so far only very few smartphones by now have four ("quad core"), just a few PCs have more than that, but the numbers will continue to climb everywhere, even though it is still difficult to write software which actually exploits multiple cores very well.


For you as a user all this is esoteric and mostly irrelevant in real life – you want a device which gives you interesting functionalities without lagging all the time and without running down the battery too fast. And all the manufacturers are scrambling to get there, even though it's really the cutting edge of this kind of technology.

Gigantically complex technologies and billions in investment just to make people first want a new phone, and then remain satisfied with it.

For me, the mechanics going on behind the screen are even more fascinating than what's on it, but I can very well understand that most people don't care – they just want something that works well for them, regardless of what it takes to get there. It's just a lot more complex than the extremely simplified spec sheets of consumer products make it out to be, and such paper specs can sometimes even be deceptive.


The software side of it all is what turns raw processing power into user satisfaction – or fails at it. And that is where things get even more complex, and often subtle. And despite all the fascinating hardware technology, this is where I see the primary advantage Apple has: iOS, its app ecosystem, supporting services and how Apple is managing it all. Very, very tricky to get right, and especially entering the realm of personal preferences in many cases.

Quoting cmf (Reply 118):
Or a sign of production problems

Could be, but in light of previous rounds an abundance of orders seems more likely as the cause.
 

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
You're going to have to accept that whatever your experience was, it was complete bullpucky.

That seems rather unlikely given that many other users share his experience, particularly with regard to the atrocious battery life on LTE with the first-generation chipsets. The iPhone 5 just happens to be the first device with a second-generation LTE chipset, not entirely by accident.

Products like that Android phone just don't get out of the door at Apple – they forgo an emerging technology rather than releasing a product that's effectively unusable. They already did the same with the first generation of UMTS chips which had very similar problems. That's why the first iPhone didn't have "3G" either.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 120):
There is an article in the OP, it mentiones that Apple doesn't impress or excite like it used to - I think there's something to that.

The first iPhone was an impossible act to follow with regard to its "shock and awe" factor.

The thing is just: After throwing into a market with listless, dissatisfying products the first one which was mostly satisfying with a massive distance covered in one giant jump, that same previous dissatisfaction simply doesn't exist any more.

Receding pain was the main part of the excitement about the first iPhone.

This has since been reduced to just occasional chafing at maybe not yet available but already desirable further improvements, but on a background of general satisfaction (see the iPhone user satisfaction ratings).

Some people clearly get bored with too little pain by now and are venturing for something different above all, even at the risk of potential or real discomfort or disappointment, others are more interested in just getting an even better version of what they've already satisfied with.

It's a matter of personal preference, but it's worlds apart from the before-iPhone era, and that era is simply not coming back.

Which is A Good Thing!

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
Nothing 'wrong' with that. Someone is leading innovation, it just isn't Apple.

Innovation is often desirable, but innovation just for its own sake without consistency or progressive refinement to back it up is like treading water, constantly losing as much progress as you're making in another place. And in some cases innovation can actually be a step backwards in product satisfaction if one is not careful.

Quoting TLG (Reply 129):
Quoting gingersnap (Reply 125):
The sheer number of people who have pre-ordered the new iPhone 5 can't be wrong can they? Or are they just unenlightened sheep who follow anything that Apple put out?

- Could be.

Sure. But with user satisfaction still sky-high through all the years and the user base still rapidly expanding (roughly doubling every year!), that probability is getting astronomically small.

Quoting TLG (Reply 129):
- It's been said that Apple could put their logo on (insert any kind of feces here) and users would buy it. While that's very far-fetched and of course not true, a valid point is made.

They just haven't, for some reason. Maybe the products actually are pretty good. Ever thought of that possibility? It is actually the more plausible explanation for rapidly growing numbers of users still having comparably high satisfaction. The product itself and the satisfaction remain remarkably consistent – it's just more and more people. So what's really the most plausible explanation? Yours? I don't think so.

Quoting TLG (Reply 129):
I am also wondering if the Apple Maps are as bad as the media makes them out to be. An honest question; no digs here.

No, they aren't. But the press and bloggers of course focus on the worst and most glaring problems, as is their job.

Apple definitely have a lot of work before them before their own maps exceed the quality of Google's all around, but the examples thrown about are extremes, not the rule. The rule is mostly okay as far as I can tell so far (see the other thread).

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
No public transit directions is the killer for me on Apple maps. Fortunately I found that out just before I was going to update to iOS6.

I'm very surprised they didn't add this feature, although I gather it's coming at some point.

They're outsourcing it: They are encouraging app developers to cater to this problem. I've actually always used apps for that already.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 131):
I just can't understand such a trend. I mean, unless phones are going to ship with 100-200Gb memory inbuilt then let the user decide how much more they want. We will probably soon have 128Gb micro SD available. On a larger screen this really comes into its own, being able to have a good video library for boring waits or trips away. It's certainly not wrecking the look of my phone having an SD slot.

You just don't have that much more memory – you have to swap cards around.

Technically it creates numerous security issues and a lot of software and handling complexity which limits various possibilities (consistent backups among them).

The overall advantages are limited (not that many people are actually limited in real life by existing capacities) and the problems are complicated, quite annoying and some rather challenging for the developers and some potentially severe for users and expensive for manufacturer support.

Too few people really need swappable hardware storage (cloud services increasingly compete with it). And growing internal capacities obsolete the problem for an ever-growing portion of users. For me the problem has vanished at 64GB with the iPhone 4S. For most people 32GB or even less are already sufficient. A few people will stop caring beyond the next iteration at 128GB, only very few even after that.

See the old "What? No floppy drive?" complaint against the iMac. What about it today?

Quoting lewis (Reply 132):
From the top of my head, I would assume they just do it for the money.

Difference between iPhone 16GB and iphone 32GB: ~$100 - a ridiculous price for 16GB in our day and age in my opinion.

Not primarily. Effectively the bigger capacity models subsidize the margin for the smaller ones. Conventional pricing spread for feature variations as in any industry. You never pay just the component differential on an upgrade.

It's primarily a pain to completely redo much of your conceptual OS design to accomodate removable storage. It is a huge pain by comparison to one single fixed partition if you don't want to burden the user with substantial usage complexities and risks. And you don't – those users are a high risk of clogging up your support (if you even offer any, of course!) and tanking the reputation of your entire platform, even if they've caught themselves in one of the traps of a presumably more flexible solution.

Not worth it all in all – and others are increasingly following Apple's lead there. Money is not the primary reason. Nor simply being spiteful or evil, as some appear to suspect...  devil 
 

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 131):
Not damning at all. Just a different approach. Liberating in a way, puttint more responsibility on the end user. Offers more choice ultimately, admittedly with the pay-off that there is an amount of crap you'd be silly to touch, but also that there is a ton of great stuff for free. No problem at all.

The problem is just that the selection of actually good apps is still far greater on the iOS side. Especially high-grade apps are often only available in an iOS version for a number of reasons.

[Edited 2012-09-20 20:06:47]

User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 134, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
Innovation is often desirable, but innovation just for its own sake without consistency or progressive refinement to back it up is like treading water, constantly losing as much progress as you're making in another place. And in some cases innovation can actually be a step backwards in product satisfaction if one is not careful.

Agree 400% if only the auto industry would follow this.... refinement is not enemy of innovation, in fact it keeps innovation fresh...



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
(see the other thread)

I did, and I believe it's the first time I've seen you admit that an Apple product is less than perfect.    That was a beautiful word salad you served!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
Sure. But with user satisfaction still sky-high through all the years and the user base still rapidly expanding (roughly doubling every year!), that probability is getting astronomically small.

My answer there was tongue-in-cheek. I am fully aware that Apple has earned such a following, and rightly so. But, did you know that approximately 2/3 of the world's smartphones run Android? Why is that?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
They just haven't, for some reason. Maybe the products actually are pretty good. Ever thought of that possibility? It is actually the more plausible explanation for rapidly growing numbers of users still having comparably high satisfaction. The product itself and the satisfaction remain remarkably consistent – it's just more and more people. So what's really the most plausible explanation? Yours? I don't think so.

The comment about Apple selling anything with their logo on it was also tongue-in-cheek. Lighten up! For the record, I didn't think that one up on my own!

I think that some of these comments would be taken a little more seriously by the "other side" if the posters would be a bit more objective, and this goes for both sides. So far I haven't seen much, if any, of that. Like I said before, Klaus, you argue away features that the Samsung Galaxy S3 has that the iPhone 5 doesn't. What's wrong with admitting that the features are cool? I would venture a guess that at least some of them will be seen in the next iPhone. And, for the record, the S3 has recently outsold the iPhone, although I'm sure that's changing right now! Some of that could have also been due to iPhone users waiting to buy until the iPhone 5 was released.

[Edited 2012-09-20 20:33:17]

[Edited 2012-09-20 20:41:57]

[Edited 2012-09-20 20:44:19]

[Edited 2012-09-20 20:45:40]

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3677 posts, RR: 5
Reply 136, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
See the old "What? No floppy drive?" issue. What about it today?

But we still have alternative portable storage that we can hook up to our computers. When the floppy disappeared, it disappeared for a reason, because there was a better alternative. And before you bring up the cloud, yeah it is nice and all, but only if you can connect to it

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
It's primarily a pain to completely redo much of your conceptual OS design to accomodate removable storage. It is a huge pain by comparison to one single fixed partition if you don't want to burden the user with substantial usage complexities and risks. And you don't – those users are a high risk of clogging up your support (if you even offer any, of course!) and tanking the reputation of your entire platform, even if they've caught themselves in one of the traps of a presumably more flexible solution.

You can have external memory and limit its usage to something that most users would use it for anyway - for storing more music or photos. Not such a problem with re-doing much of your OS and not much of a security threat either. I have used lots of phones before and it was always a nice feature for that extra storage needs. The people that would clog your support system, most of them wouldn't even bother using a card, same thing as with all previous phones that offered the option.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
You never pay just the component differential on an upgrade.

This may be true, but the price difference is still too much.


User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11559 posts, RR: 52
Reply 137, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4144 times:

Quoting TLG (Reply 129):
I am not trying to take sides here, but most of the pro-Apple contributors on this forum are doing this very thing, in reverse of course.

I know the thread is long, but you have to read the whole thread to see why I made the accusation I did. I am in fact not doing "this very thing," but catching an Apple hater doing it.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 124):
I think it is exciting to be able to install apps from any source I like, from Google Play or just from a source of my choice.
I think the feature to hang up or go silent when the phone is turned down is innovative (Galaxy SIII and HTC One)
I think the pattern locking system is really innovative.
I think it is innovative that the screen doesn't sleep when I am looking at the phone (GSIII)
I think it is an innovative use of NFC to use it as a quick and easy file sharing feature (GSIII, ICS and NFC enabled devices)
I think the fast camera of the GSIII, snapping photos off instantly, is exciting.
I think the large AMOLED screens with that immense contrast are exciting.
I think it is innovative to be able to put a removable battery and a micro SD card slot in a really thin phone, pretty much as thin as the equivalent iPhone, the iPhone 5 being only 1mm thinner than the GSIII for instance.

As I said earlier, you are absolutely allowed to prefer Android. I think it has flaws I find unacceptable, and in my opinion iOS is much more elegant for a mobile device, so I prefer iOS.
But what I see when you make this list is that you are easily excited (unless it's made by Apple), and that most of the things you claim are innovative are not even new. Having a removable battery isn't even innovative. Your listing of these features, while deriding other incremental improvements on the iPhone really just suggest a double standard more than anything else. That is what has caused this argument.

I'll finish my post with this: it really does seem like you (and most Android users that post on threads about apple, Rara, I'm talking about you in particular) compare your Android devices to the similar iOS device. You know what you don't see Apple users doing? Comparing their device to Android devices. Why is that? Why is it that Android fanboys seem to justify their existence in comparison to Apple?

And doesn't the mere fact that this happens suggest that indeed it is still APPLE that is the standard-bearer?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 138, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 137):
I'll finish my post with this: it really does seem like you (and most Android users that post on threads about apple, Rara, I'm talking about you in particular) compare your Android devices to the similar iOS device. You know what you don't see Apple users doing? Comparing their device to Android devices. Why is that? Why is it that Android fanboys seem to justify their existence in comparison to Apple?

And doesn't the mere fact that this happens suggest that indeed it is still APPLE that is the standard-bearer?

DING DING... we have a winner here!

Exactly why I dont get this very long threads about how Apple has become the evil empire, in my case there are a lot of products I will never buy or test because I am perfectly happy with what I have got, they do what I want, they are easy to work with, and they dont create problems or make me work for them. I used to buy the most expensive Nokias around in 2006-2007, after seeing SJ in San Francisco Macworld in January 2007 present the Iphone I was blown away, I lost my Nokia and had to buy a NEC ultra thin phone ( I liked that mini phone a lot) but then I got an iPhone in august 2007 and since then I have been perfectly happy, and for the same reason I used Nokias for a decade I have used the Iphone and will continue to do so, the moment the iphone becomes a problem, too difficult or makes me bend backwards to do stuff, Ill look elsewhere .... simple as that....

Today is the day that the people who doesnt care about it will vote with their dollars at stores everywhere...and I guess they REALLY CARE, contrary to the BBC.



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 139, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
There had been only one company which had not just taken the (relatively cheap) schematic licenses for making chips, but which has licensed the architecture itself: Qualcomm.

I don't know if anyone else finds this stuff interesting , but I do...

Back in the 90's DEC teamed up with ARM to produce the StrongARM Chip:

Quote:

The StrongARM was a collaborative project between DEC and Advanced RISC Machines to create a faster ARM microprocessor. The StrongARM was designed to address the upper-end of the low-power embedded market, where users needed more performance than the ARM could deliver while being able to accept more external support. Targets were devices such as newer personal digital assistants and set-top boxes.[1][2]

Traditionally, the semiconductor division of DEC was located in Massachusetts. In order to gain access to the design talent in Silicon Valley, DEC opened a design center in Palo Alto, California. This design center was led by Dan Dobberpuhl and was the main design site for the StrongARM project. Another design site which worked on the project was in Austin, Texas that was created by some ex-DEC designers returning from Apple Computer and Motorola. The project was set up in 1995, and quickly delivered their first design, the SA-110.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StrongARM

And then Dan Dobberpuhl went on to found Sibyte then PA Semi, which was bought by Apple, and is thought to be one source of talent being used to develop the Apple A6:

Quote:

P. A. Semi (originally "Palo Alto Semiconductor"[1]) was a fabless semiconductor company founded in Santa Clara, California in 2003 by Daniel W. Dobberpuhl (B.S. EE 1967 University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign[2][3]) who was the lead designer for the DEC Alpha 21064 and StrongARM processors.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

Another source says:

Quote:

Although Apple has been licensing cores from ARM for its previous processors, the company’s interest in CPU design dates back to its $278 million acquisition of PA Semi in April 2008. That acquisition included a CPU design team that had developed a high-performance PowerPC processor under the leadership of Jim Keller and Pete Bannon. More important, some of the team members had previously worked on low-power StrongArm processors under PA Semi CEO Dan Dobberpuhl at Digital Equipment (DEC) in the 1990s. Within a month of that deal, Apple secretly signed an architecture license with ARM that allowed the company to develop its own ARM-compatible CPUs, becoming one of the few companies in the world with that right.

Jim Keller was lead architect on DEC's 21264 (EV6) chip and Pete Bannon was lead architect of DEC's 21364 (EV7) chip.

I saw a talk given by Jim Keller when I worked for DEC in the 90s and it was one of the most fascinating talks I've ever been involved with on the subject of chip design and software/hardware interaction.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 140, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
Nothing 'wrong' with that. Someone is leading innovation, it just isn't Apple. I suppose it has more to do with expectations than anything else.

I think the expectation is misguided somewhat. I find most of that "expectation" comes from Android users who will poo-poo anything that comes out of an Apple keynote (even if it was innovative).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
Even more people buy Android phones every day. Surely all those people can't be wrong?

Most Android devices are cheaper so are better for those on a budget. There are also a huge amount of phones available with Android, when compared to the iPhone market which is basically 2-3 phones at any one time. It is no wonder there are more Android devices that are bought, because there are more available at a wider price range. Doesn't make either better. Different people, different needs. But as is life, someone who doesn't wish to pay iPhone prices has a huge selection to choose. There is no secret as to why there are so many more Android phones bought. You're comparing a product with a huge selection of hardware platforms, over iOS with 2-3.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't pusing the boundaries of their capabilities.. but one thing is certain: they're not the leaders of innovation any longer. Whether by choice or by necessity.

I'd say it's a bit of both. I do think that the iPhone 5 was pushed out of the door rather too early. Yes it's the fastest phone on the market, but there are clearly some features that are perhaps lacking that another 6-8 months development could have solved.
Apple with their financial resources available have the capacity to go above and beyond any current Android device, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to this time round. I would prefer to see the 5S scuppered, and for a 2 year gap in the cycle to push straight onto the iPhone 6 in 2014. Forget an intermediate phone next year, and put all development into the 6.
But this is the thing, if there is something about iOS that doesn't please someone they have the option of hundreds of other devices. Apple are clearly doing something right, because the levels of sales being seen are not just "fanboys".

Quoting TLG (Reply 135):
But, did you know that approximately 2/3 of the world's smartphones run Android? Why is that?

Well that would require Apple to release iOS to other devices, which they clearly don't want to do. For most smartphones, Android has become the go to OS. Speculation but I suspect because of it's open nature, most likely cheaper to deal with and each handset can allow a tailored approach to their device.
iOS isn't quite so open, and is specifically reserved for Apple devices. There are more Android devices on the market to choose from also by a huge margin.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 141, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4057 times:

ok here are the first tests....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6M5q5TRuAsY#!

Compared to a Galaxy IIIS....

Guess Tim Cook is laughing all the way to the Bank.



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 142, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 140):
Most Android devices are cheaper so are better for those on a budget. There are also a huge amount of phones available with Android, when compared to the iPhone market which is basically 2-3 phones at any one time. It is no wonder there are more Android devices that are bought, because there are more available at a wider price range. Doesn't make either better.

IMHO the sheer number of Android devices and the plethora of changes made to it by both handset vendors and carriers makes for stale and buggy software.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 140):
I do think that the iPhone 5 was pushed out of the door rather too early. Yes it's the fastest phone on the market, but there are clearly some features that are perhaps lacking that another 6-8 months development could have solved.

Every engineer will tell you that there are great improvements they could make with another 6-8 months. In this case, it's clear to me that 4S had weaknesses compared to its competitors, ones that are addressed by the 5 via the bigger screen and the thinner and lighter phone with the much faster processor.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 140):
Apple with their financial resources available have the capacity to go above and beyond any current Android device, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to this time round.

Sorry, but infinite money doesn't get you an infinitely good product. There are zillions of finite resources in the loop, things like engineer's brains, chip and screen making factories, etc. Apple could snap their fingers and start building factories for all their hardware parts, start teams to do the hardware and software designs, etc. but they'd be crazy to do so because there's no guarantee that these people would produce great products X years from now.

It's been well known since the 70s that adding more people to a software project that's late only makes it later. Much of that is due to communication overhead. You're best off with the team with the smallest number of highly talented people who don't need to spend a lot of time syncing up with each other. The problem many companies have with this is that it also means putting a lot of trust into these small teams, and living with what they come up with.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

Quoting Asturias (Thread starter):
BBC: IPhone Launches; Nobody Cares  

Based on the fact that Apple sold 2 million iPhones in the first 24 hours of pre-orders and likely sold millions more yesterday, no, I don't think 'nobody' cares.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2335 posts, RR: 5
Reply 144, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

Apple fans are like Honey Badgers or 911 drivers..they just don't give a shit about the background noise. They just focus on their own kit and what's in front of their noses. The tiger can bring down a water buffalo, the AMG has a 100 more horsepower, but they still don't give a shit. The tiger and the AMG guys though, they always talk about the Honey Badger You Tube hits or secretly park GT3s in their personal garages. It does say something doesn't it, it's complete and total envy. It's like I say about Amex, the Visa and MC teams can never stop talking talking about the company that's in a very distant 4th place in terms of market-share. That, to me, defines what a standard bearer is, the animal, card, car, or phone that everyone everywhere talks about all the time.