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Romney's Recent Controversial Comments  
User currently offline777222LR From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 134 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10593 times:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...deo-shows-candid-romney/?hpt=hp_c1

"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing."

Speaking on Obama, "Had he been born of Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot of winning this."

Obviously, given some of the Republican base, I can't imagine it will hurt Romney that much there, but the one's on the fence, I'm not so sure. All-in-all, some really abrasive comments to make about half the country, which I do not believe are true in the slightest. Sure, there are people who abuse the system, but I do not believe that 47% of Americans, or the Democrats, believe this. I'm a democrat and I certainly don't feel entitled or like a victim.

What say you?

311 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10576 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
What say you?

Very very stupid. Had he said "there is about 47% that won't vote for me no matter what, I've got X%, so we need to focus on the middle ground" I don't think it would be as bad, but really Romney, what are you thinking!?

Honestly I see the media and the usual people make a big deal about it and most people not. As dumb as this comment was, I think the determining factor for voters will be something other than this comment. He's got 1 more chance to impress me... apparently his campaign says "it's time" to release details about his plans (the economy, jobs, etc.) I don't see anything changing on my end though



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10572 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):



47% of the population doesn't mean anything to him???

Now that both feet have been shot off ..someone get the man a wheelchair, walking is outta the question and he's gotta get to the debates somehow.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7786 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10571 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
given some of the Republican base, I can't imagine it will hurt Romney that much there, but the one's on the fence, I'm not so sure.

The media will overblow this for about 3 weeks or so and then they'll find something to rip on.

It's really kinda weird. He has a point though...maybe it's not 47% of the people, but it's Americans themselves who have become a real slave to the government. They rely too much on the government for handouts, and they refuse to grow themselves, become themselves by themselves. They want those who have made themselves (the so-called 1%) to be the ones who pay for THEM. It's pathetic. We have become a nation of lazy dullards.

That's why I'm voting Romeny/Ryan. Both of them are self-made men. We need more people in this country who don't rely on the government.

Romney says that 47% of the electorate feels that they are "entitled" to whatever the government hands them, when that's really a bad thing. Romney is saying that he feels these people should have their mindset changed, so they become independent Americans. After all, we fought against the British for this very reason- to become free independent people.

Why do we need the government -- a failure of one -- to hand us what we need?


That's what Romney is saying. (or has said, like, 5 months ago. Remember that's when this was filmed.)

Media bias at it's best.

I hate politics.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7786 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10565 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
47% of the population doesn't mean anything to him???

Misinterpretation- He's saying 47% of the population will vote for people who give them anything want, and he wishes that this country's mindset will be changed.


Read into this more.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10552 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
That's why I'm voting Romeny/Ryan. Both of them are self-made men.

I'm not a Romney history guru, but I'm skeptical of this comment. Did he get to where he is WITHOUT any help from his father? Not saying he hasn't worked hard, but he needs to recognize the help that he received and realize not everyone has that. I've gotten pretty far so far in life, and I believe I could have done that with no help, but having a loving and supporting family undeniably helped.

Not saying government should force a level playing field, but I think there are some barriers to the poor that could be removed (mostly our education system needs reform IMO)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Very very stupid. Had he said "there is about 47% that won't vote for me no matter what, I've got X%, so we need to focus on the middle ground" I don't think it would be as bad, but really Romney, what are you thinking!?

It is pretty accurate. The modern day Democratic Party is centered on bribing people to vote for them - people who will get more sh&t from the government than they pay in (if they pay anything). The day that number crosses 50%, there will be champagne corks popping all through the DNC - they see this as a great political goal.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
It's pathetic. We have become a nation of lazy dullards.

I tend to disagree with comment seeing as how we still work the most among most western nations.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Both of them are self-made men

Using their parents money. And Obama isn't? He was born in a worse situation than Romney and Ryan financially.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Romney says that 47% of the electorate feels that they are "entitled" to whatever the government hands them

I'm part of that 47% that will be voting Obama and I don't feel entitled to anything. I work my butt off and I go to school every day so that I can be in a better situation in the future.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Why do we need the government -- a failure of one -- to hand us what we need?

the last thing the government handed me was a piece of paper saying I hadn't payed enough in my taxes, which I promptly paid.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10541 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Very very stupid. Had he said "there is about 47% that won't vote for me no matter what, I've got X%, so we need to focus on the middle ground" I don't think it would be as bad, but really Romney, what are you thinking!?

It is pretty accurate.

I was saying, whether he thinks that or not, it was pretty dumb of him to say



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10541 times:

Well, the U.S. is dangerously close to the point of no return, so the man has a point.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13148 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10517 times:

How many of those 47% who don't pay Federal Income Tax include those on Government Social Security or on a small pension too low to be taxed? How many of those are on a Government or private disability or lawsuit proceeds not subject to taxation or the amounts too low to be taxed? How many are just not making enough to pay Federal Income taxes? Out of that 47%, how many will vote for Romney - probably 20% of them, especially older, suburban and rural males, Christian fundies and some racists who hate Obama.

Yes, about 47% of Americans won't vote for Romney-Ryan, but is is a much broader group than those he id's by only that number who get some government subsidies.


User currently offline777222LR From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 134 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

I do not think ANYONE is successful from the ground up without some sort of government assistance. I worked for the government of Oklahoma in the Oklahoma State Senate during college and the self-made millionaires would be nowhere if it weren't for their friends in the government, and their businesses would fail if it weren't for government assistance and what you term, "handouts." No doubt Romney has gotten some sweet and favorable things from the government. And while it may not be foodstamps or free healthcare or legal services, he surely has benefitted more from his government than a person hoping to eat and get a tetanus shot. Let's just term it, a white collar handout vs. a poor man's handout. A handout given over a nice glass of Scotch with friends at the Ritz-Carlton. It's still a handout. It's how big business is done. Fortunately for them, they have the money and damage control to term it something else, for those less fortunate, it's a "disgraceful thing" to get assistance, at least to some. While no one supports lazy people freeloading, this percentage is a HUGE minority in America, and an almost negligable force in the voting world.

I don't understand this "handout" rhetoric either. Most of the democrats I know are self-made, educated, and work their tail ends off. There are a LOT of Republicans who have nothing who rely on government assistance. I live in one of the most Red-States in the US, and there are people here who are dirt poor living on foodstamps who love Romney, but will take their healthcare and "handouts" privately and say the government should pay for things.

Let's be honest, not everyone in the US can be a hugely successful self-made person, it wouldn't work out. In theory, perhaps, but society has never, in the history of man, allowed this, due to man's on selfish reasons and desires. Everyone being self-made and hugely successful would spread the wealth out so everyone would basically have the same, which seems a little too "socialist" for those who are so against it.

Either way, I think the Romney comments, whether he meant them or not, were offensive. Some of the most successful, wealthy, educated, and hardworking people in the US are democrats. In fact, I'd say more of them are probably socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but comments like this will probably push them over to the liberal side. It doesn't help Romney, and shows a bit of arrogance towards his fellow man.

[Edited 2012-09-17 20:00:19]

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10490 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
What say you?

I don't see what all is so controversial about it. Most people already know who they're voting for, and recent polling suggests that a similar percentage of the population sees government as the answer (39%), the vision which Obama champions, so where's the issue?

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Speaking on Obama, "Had he been born of Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot of winning this."

Well when you have practically 100% of African Americans voting for Obama (according to certain polls) and the race card often being played so errantly by his surrogates, I would agree with him.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but having a loving and supporting family undeniably helped.

Where has he not given credit to the love and support from his wife and family? That was pretty much the theme of the whole RNC.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
It's pathetic. We have become a nation of lazy dullards.

I tend to disagree with comment seeing as how we still work the most among most western nations.

That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Both of them are self-made men

Using their parents money.

Yeah I'm sure Ryan was living the lush life off his single working mom's money.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
the last thing the government handed me was a piece of paper saying I hadn't payed enough in my taxes, which I promptly paid.

...so you're voting for a guy who wants to raise taxes even more, in addition to the ones he's already created with Obamacare?


User currently offline777222LR From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 134 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10474 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

Considering those who are the 1% running American companies have been outsourcing labor like crazy in the past 25 years, it's no wonder.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
I don't see what all is so controversial about it. Most people already know who they're voting for, and recent polling suggests that a similar percentage of the population sees government as the answer (39%), the vision which Obama champions, so where's the issue?

Let's say Obama said this: "I'm going to just concentrate on those 8-10% who are on the fence because the rest of them are Conservative Religious people who feel entitled to injest their religious vitrol into politics. They think they deserve to be a nation of white Christians only, and lets face it folks, if you don't walk, talk, act, and worship the same God as us all, it's not worth trying to get their vote."

-Is it true, absolutely not, is it a stereotype, absolutely. And Romney just stereotyped the entire Democratic Party, with a pretty much baseless stereotype as it is. Had Obama said the above, you'd be screaming and yelling that it was offensive as well. Why? Because it is, either way.


User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

We can't blame the economy on only Obama, a lot of the problems that we had with it were already well in motion when he came into power, he was trying to save a sinking supertanker with a bucket.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
Yeah I'm sure Ryan was living the lush life off his single working mom's money.

I will give credit where it is due, and I mistakenly wrapped Ryan into that. So you have me there. Romney on the other hand had wealthy parents to fall back on.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
...so you're voting for a guy who wants to raise taxes even more, in addition to the ones he's already created with Obamacare?

Yes. I don't see how lowering taxes for the upper class is going to do anything when most of the country falls in the middle class demographic.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10449 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

Considering those who are the 1% running American companies have been outsourcing labor like crazy in the past 25 years, it's no wonder.

Then how is it possible that we've had such vast swaths of 4% unemployment in the past 25 years (the lowest it can statistically go)? Furthermore, you honestly think Obama's going to bring those manufacturing jobs back with his stellar economic policies and 6,000 EPA regulations under review...oh and don't forget that auto plant in Finland he loaned money to, or the Brazilian oil companies to develop their oil sector while he comes home and vetoes the Keystone Pipeline.

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
I don't see what all is so controversial about it. Most people already know who they're voting for, and recent polling suggests that a similar percentage of the population sees government as the answer (39%), the vision which Obama champions, so where's the issue?

Let's say Obama said this: "I'm going to just concentrate on those 8-10% who are on the fence because the rest of them are Conservative Religious people who feel entitled to injest their religious vitrol into politics. They think they deserve to be a nation of white Christians only, and lets face it folks, if you don't walk, talk, act, and worship the same God as us all, it's not worth trying to get their vote."

-Is it true, absolutely not, is it a stereotype, absolutely. And Romney just stereotyped the entire Democratic Party, with a pretty much baseless stereotype as it is. Had Obama said the above, you'd be screaming and yelling that it was offensive as well. Why? Because it is, either way.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi...ging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html

Quote:
Obama: And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

We can't blame the economy on only Obama, a lot of the problems that we had with it were already well in motion when he came into power, he was trying to save a sinking supertanker with a bucket.

Not according to Obama's own estimations. Obama told us that if we passed his stimulus that unemployment wouldn't go about 8%, that a lot the mess would be greatly improving at the end of his first term...well? I wouldn't have expected this whole economic disaster to be cleaned up in just four years, but we should be seeing at least SOME indications that his policies are working by now instead of joblessness increasing and being on the brink of yet another recession.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
...so you're voting for a guy who wants to raise taxes even more, in addition to the ones he's already created with Obamacare?

Yes. I don't see how lowering taxes for the upper class is going to do anything when most of the country falls in the middle class demographic.

Romney wants to lower marginal tax rates in ALL income tax brackets while closing loopholes for the "upper class".

[Edited 2012-09-17 20:38:32]

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
And Obama isn't? He was born in a worse situation than Romney and Ryan financially.

This whole narrative that Obama lived such an underprivileged, tough upbringing is ridiculous. From both of his books we know he lived in the mostly upscale neighborhoods in Honolulu and Indonesia, went to one of the most elite preparatory academies in Hawaii, regularly went on extravagant family vacations including a month-long junket to the mainland traveling all over the West Coast (and this being a.net, I think we all know how expensive it was for a whole family to fly Hawaii-mainland in the late 60's early 70's). He most certainly did not have the "hard knock life" many people seem to think.


[Edited 2012-09-17 20:48:44]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10447 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Very very stupid. Had he said "there is about 47% that won't vote for me no matter what, I've got X%, so we need to focus on the middle ground" I don't think it would be as bad, but really Romney, what are you thinking!?

It's incredibly stupid. This is Romney's "they cling to guns and religion" moment - alienating a whole section of the population who might have voted for him by lumping them all in with a stereotype.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I'm not a Romney history guru, but I'm skeptical of this comment. Did he get to where he is WITHOUT any help from his father?

Of course not. He had a much easier road of it. When he suggests that young people borrow money from their parents to go to school or start a business, it shows how he just doesn't understand the financial reality of a lot of people in the country. He had a privileged background, and to his credit he didn't piss it all away, but let's not pretend he's a self-made man.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The modern day Democratic Party is centered on bribing people to vote for them

And the GOP isn't?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10442 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

Sure, when facts don't matter.

http://www.dlt.ri.gov/lmi/laus/us/usadj.htm


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10406 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Speaking on Obama, "Had he been born of Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot of winning this."


Don't put that in quotes if you can't quote it correctly!! He was talking about himself not President Obama and his statement is 100% true. If Mitt was of Mexican descent and Hispanic he would have an easier time winning this election no doubt about it. You quote of it is something I except from CNN or MSNBC.
""My dad, as you probably, know was the governor of Michigan and was the head of a car company. But he was born in Mexico ... and, uh, had he been born of, uh, Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot at winning this," Romney said. "But he was unfortunately born to Americans living in Mexico.... I mean I say that jokingly, but it would be helpful to be Latino.""

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Misinterpretation- He's saying 47% of the population will vote for people who give them anything want, and he wishes that this country's mindset will be changed.


Exactly. Honestly what do I have to say about this? He is basically telling the truth. There is about 3-5% of Americans who will decide the election.

Also I think it is disgusting that someone went in there and recorded things illegally I assume. And if not against some agreement at least something that is very frowned upon in the political and business world. It is disgusting and who ever did it should not be such a coward and just reveal themselves. Of course they may have legal consequences if they did depending on any agreements at people who attended the event.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10401 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30 years.

Sure, when facts don't matter.

http://www.dlt.ri.gov/lmi/laus/us/usadj.htm

Nice try...

http://www.businessinsider.com/labor...ts-lowest-level-in-31-years-2012-9


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10398 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing."

It is obvious to me that Romney and his type claim to love America but have nothing but disdain for Americans.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Romney says that 47% of the electorate feels that they are "entitled" to whatever the government hands them, when that's really a bad thing. Romney is saying that he feels these people should have their mindset changed, so they become independent Americans. After all, we fought against the British for this very reason- to become free independent people.

No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10362 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The modern day Democratic Party is centered on bribing people to vote for them

By promising them jobs and health care. How dare they!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."

What really irritates me is: the right-wing keeps going on and on about how much they love the Christian religions and how they are the party of God but they hate helping anyone other than the super wealthy. They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless. After all, the median income is $250,000 according to.... who? factcheck.org to find out what the real median income is....



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineqantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10350 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
The media will overblow this for about 3 weeks or so and then they'll find something to rip on.

the guys says he doesn't give a toss about nearly 150 million people...seriously, if stupidity had a photo then Mitt would be the poster! There is more to come from his speech too, can't imagine how much worse it could be.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10340 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
47% of the population doesn't mean anything to him???

Misinterpretation- He's saying 47% of the population will vote for people who give them anything want, and he wishes that this country's mindset will be changed.

I know exactly what he was saying..but that's not how it plays in Peoria (if you get that political quip).

My joking about it in the manner I did.. is exactly how it will be broadcast across the airways/internet everywhere you look tomorrow. With his 'I don't worry about those people' statement... it's gonna play like Obama's 'you didn't build that' statement but on steroids multiplied by a factor of 10. Simply because it comes on the heels of his Libya miscue. Add to that the actual video of him saying it.

Here again was a case of Romney and bad choice of phrasing.

Half the country ARE NOT lazy government dependents, you are delusional to even hint that they are. I recently donated some computers to unemployed vets along with teaching some to really use them. While fought Romney goofed off in Paris on Military deferments. The majority of them are in tough situations..and when their nation called on them, they went to a wrong headed war in Vietnam. And the benefits they get today IS INDEED fair trade for what they gave. And they aren't the only ones. Many of today's poor and lower middle classcitizens weren't always in such an unfortunate state. When these financial disasters took hold, the numbers affected were more than just numbers - they were hard working productive contributing Americans as were their kids and now they may be finding a hard road back..but make no mistake for all they've put into the system..the system was designed to help them get back on their feet. I find it absolutely insane how the War Mongers love sending others into battle to attack someone else and risk their lives and then want nothing to do with them when they return maimed physically and mentally. or their families in distress because they didn't return at all. Many of these people are in the 47% he doesn't care about.

When Romney's dad fled the Mexican Revolution, he had nothing, the US Gov't gave them each $250 ($6000) each to get back on their feet again - here in the USA. It was the US Taxpayers that gave him 1.3 Billion 'to save the Salt Lake Olympics'...Romney could have used his 'business skills' to rause money to 'save the Olympics'..but nooooo... Gov't assistance was much much easier! So he needs to hold his tongue when talks about people dependent on Gov't, because if not for thsi gov't he wouldn't be in the position he's been in to take advantage of tax loop holes to stash cash in the Caymans , Bahamas and Switzerland.

BN747

[Edited 2012-09-17 22:29:46]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10340 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."

Absolutely! From each according to their ability and to each according to their need, right?

Ha! No thanks. You can take that "Entitlement=Civilization" clap trap back to where it belongs alongside communism and national socialism...the rubbish bin of history.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless.

Oh right, because those great landmark welfare accomplishments of the Democrats have surely helped do those things...oops, it actually hasn't, we now have more people living below the poverty line than before the "Great Society" reforms of the 60's.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10422 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
Absolutely! From each according to their ability and to each according to their need, right?

Not exactly, but forcing people to starve to death isn't civilized.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10417 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what,

He's right about that, but he shouldn't be saying it.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
That's why I'm voting Romeny/Ryan. Both of them are self-made men.

So is Obama.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Well, the U.S. is dangerously close to the point of no return, so the man has a point.

I think we're past it. Competing has been deemed too hard by too many people, so it seems easier to just coast and let the government take care of it. Americans are expecting less from themselves and more from others which is going to become a serious problem. Why plow and plant and fertilize and harvest when you could just shake your neighbor's fruit tree?

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 11):
I do not think ANYONE is successful from the ground up without some sort of government assistance.

If one man uses a road to become a millionaire owner of a trucking company and another man uses the same road to commute to his minimum wage job, the difference is not in the road.

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 11):
Let's be honest, not everyone in the US can be a hugely successful self-made person, it wouldn't work out.

None of that is the problem of those who are successful.

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
Considering those who are the 1% running American companies have been outsourcing labor like crazy in the past 25 years, it's no wonder.

The solution is to stop vilifying those who are doing the outsourcing and look at the underlying factors causing them to do so. That's what needs to change.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."

Everything the government provides to people also has to come from people. The government is a service that provides things that cannot be done privately. They should not be in the business of redistributing income.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
What really irritates me is: the right-wing keeps going on and on about how much they love the Christian religions and how they are the party of God but they hate helping anyone other than the super wealthy. They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless.

That's why I don't want the Christian right in power. They might start taking that bit seriously, and I would hate that every bit as much as when Democrats try it.

Of course, when you take money via taxes under the threat of a jail term, that couldn't be called charity. Really more like theft actually. That said, if you do feel so strongly about giving money to those less fortunate, there are plenty of charities ready to take your money, and probably do more good with less bureaucracy than the government would.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 24
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
None of that is the problem of those who are successful.

Actually, it is a problem. If everyone wanted to me mega-wealthy like Mitt Romney, our entire country would collapse. Few people get wealthy serving in our military, but we need soldiers. Few people get wealthy being teachers, but we need them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
I think we're past it. Competing has been deemed too hard by too many people, so it seems easier to just coast and let the government take care of it. Americans are expecting less from themselves and more from others which is going to become a serious problem.

Totally false. There's little difference in the number of American's that want to work between today and 50 years ago. Most Americans want to work and be productive. The difference is that in the past hard work usually paid off, today it frequently doesn't as the deck is stacked against the average worker like never before.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
If one man uses a road to become a millionaire owner of a trucking company and another man uses the same road to commute to his minimum wage job, the difference is not in the road.

But where would that millionaire be if no one built the road??

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 15):
Then how is it possible that we've had such vast swaths of 4% unemployment in the past 25 years (the lowest it can statistically go)?

Temporary bubbles that artificially propped the economy up making it look far better than it actually was. We had big bubbles in stocks and housing that created a lot of temporary and artificial wealth. But when the bubbles popped, we ended up back in reality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
He's right about that, but he shouldn't be saying it.

Except that a lot of people on "government assistance" are loyal Republicans. It's no secret that most of the states that consume far more than they pay to the Federal government are conservative states. Gee, I wonder why??


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10420 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
If everyone wanted to me mega-wealthy like Mitt Romney, our entire country would collapse.

So? How is any of that my problem? (For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day)

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Few people get wealthy serving in our military, but we need soldiers. Few people get wealthy being teachers, but we need them.

I'm not saying everybody has to care about money. But the inability or lack of interest of some people in making money isn't the problem of those who do have the ability and interest.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Totally false. There's little difference in the number of American's that want to work between today and 50 years ago. Most Americans want to work and be productive.

Half of the "American Dream" got forgotten and people want more social programs than before. They'd just as soon let the wealthy pay for everything and have the government provide every service they need. Don't have a job? It's because the government didn't provide one. Don't have money? Let the government take care of it.

All people do is sit around and complain about jobs going to India and China versus working to come up with new jobs or becoming competitive. It's easy to vote for more spending when it's not your money being spent.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
But where would that millionaire be if no one built the road??

There is a road, which both should pay taxes for. The ability of one to use the road to make more money than the other does not mean he should pick up the tab for both of them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10412 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
we now have more people living below the poverty line than

Because people like Romney ship jobs overseas then blame people like you and me (who have to work at Wal-Mart because we have to feed and house our families) for the problems in our country.

The real people of this country who work at Wal-Mart and McDonalds end up on food stamps and government health care because people like Romney and Ryan and McConnell and Prevus and Rush and FOX tell everyone that it is the minimum wage workers to blame for the income inequality. Not the Wal-Mart/McDonalds workers. But, the Wal-Mart/McDonalds worders ARE the minimum wage workers!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):That's why I'm voting Romeny/Ryan. Both of them are self-made men.
So is Obama.

Romney/Ryan love the Obama story, but fail to mention that Romney/Ryan are government or parent hand-outs. Obama actually DID pully himself up by his boot-straps. Romney got his mony from daddy and Ryan got his money from the feds. Obama was not a legacy. He became editor of Harvard Law Review on his own. With his own brain and hard work. Not because of daddy. That is what the right wants everyone to achieve. Just not the end result being some black guy. Only the white guys using daddy's money and name. That's how it looks to most of us, anyway.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 24
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10409 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
(For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day)

When the country collapses, many of the wealthy (like you want to be) will get taken down with it. Bad things happen to wealthy people too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
There is a road, which both should pay taxes for.

But you're still side stepping the question, how did the road get there?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day

That's fine. I hope you enjoy the unsatisfying life that comes when money is the only thing you care about.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3284 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10411 times:

I think Romney has come to the realization that he truly has very little chance of winning the Presidency on Election Day. Thus, he is no longer filtering his comments and perspectives for the entire electorate. He just pissed off half of the American population with this one comment.... and his comment was wildly inaccurate. People may not pay income taxes to the IRS, but it doesn't mean that these people don't pay ANY taxes. They pay city, county, and state sales taxes, school taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes, state income taxes, payroll taxes, and so on.

Of course, we have no idea what Mitt has paid over the past several years in federal income taxes, since he steadfastly refuses to release more than TWO years of tax statements. Personally, I think Mitt gave himself a fatal self-inflicted wound with this comment, as he will NEVER escape this error in the mind of independent voters.   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10405 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
But you're still side stepping the question, how did the road get there?

Government put it there, which is fine. That's one of the things people need the government to do, since we can't all built our own roads. I do generally support efforts for the privatization of infrastructure.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
I hope you enjoy the unsatisfying life that comes when money is the only thing you care about.

Other people might find it unsatisfying, but I don't think I would. Success is addictive, and I'm perfectly fine being a junkie.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10402 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
we now have more people living below the poverty line than

Because people like Romney ship jobs overseas

Puhleez. Romney turned around Staples, Dunkin Donuts, Home Depot, and Baskin Robins among others, almost 90% of the companies Romney and Bain Capital invested in were successfully turned around, companies that would have otherwise gone bankrupt, jobs that would have otherwise been lost. Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland, solar panel manufacturing in Mexico, and made bridge loans to Brazil to drill for oil while he puts the boot on the neck of our energy sector here in the States.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
The real people of this country who work at Wal-Mart and McDonalds end up on food stamps and government health care because people like Romney and Ryan and McConnell and Prevus and Rush and FOX tell everyone that it is the minimum wage workers to blame for the income inequality. Not the Wal-Mart/McDonalds workers. But, the Wal-Mart/McDonalds worders ARE the minimum wage workers!

I'm sorry, you make zero sense here, I genuinely have no idea what you were trying to say.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
(For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day)

When the country collapses, many of the wealthy (like you want to be) will get taken down with it. Bad things happen to wealthy people too.

Nope, the wealthy always have the money and ease to move somewhere else. Go ahead, raise taxes as high as you'd like, demonize their successes, in the end they're not going to hurt, they'll just move to Switzerland, Singapore, or Belgium in the case of Bernard Arnault.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
There is a road, which both should pay taxes for.

But you're still side stepping the question, how did the road get there?

Where do think the money came from to build the road in the first place?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
I think Romney has come to the realization that he truly has very little chance of winning the Presidency on Election Day.

You're dreaming, Obama and Romney have been and continue to be statistically tied in almost all the polls.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
he will NEVER escape this error in the mind of independent voters.

How long have we been hearing this one? That Romney is going to lose the independents because of "this" or "that", yet Romney continues to lead by good margins among independents.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 24
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10376 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Nope, the wealthy always have the money and ease to move somewhere else.

If the U.S. collapses, we'll take much of the rest of the world with us. Moving to Switzerland won't save you.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
That Romney is going to lose the independents because of "this" or "that", yet Romney continues to lead by good margins among independents.

If Romney is leading by "good margins" among independents, plus he obviously leads with Republicans, how are they "statistically tied"? Conservatives + independents = 60-70% of the electorate, so they shouldn't be tied if what you say is true. Much like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan, your math doesn't add up.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5637 posts, RR: 29
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
It is obvious to me that Romney and his type claim to love America but have nothing but disdain for Americans

For many, that statement would be more accurate with "Obama". For me personally, I think they both have a real heart for their country that is nonetheless overshadow by a lust for power, control, and ego-stroking.

Of course, you might once again say I'm "balancing" but I couldn't care less. This is exactly how I see it. That you like one and someone else likes the other is irrelevant.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
By promising them jobs and health care. How dare they!

Well, they have no business promising anything. Promises by politicians are largely made to be broken and frequently are made on the backs of people other than themselves. Jobs? Who is any president to promise anyone a job?

Quoting seb146,reply=21What really irritates me is: the right-wing keeps going on and on about how much they love the Christian religions and how they are the party of God but they hate helping anyone other than the super wealthy. They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless. After all, the median income is $250,000 according to.... who? factcheck.org to find out what the real median income is....][/quote]

What are you talking about? I'm sure there are studies that prove your point but once again I just don't see it in my life. All of the wealthy people I know appear to give regardless of party affiliation. They don't refuse to feed the hungry or house the homeless - they donate their money (often), goods (sometimes), and services (occasionally). that they often prefer to do it privately rather than via the IRS is only relevant if you wish to control the process (or money flow).

Ironically, the wealthiest people I know are Democrats - shame on them! Lol.

[quote=FlyPNS1
(Reply 27):
But where would that millionaire be if no one built the road??

But where COULD that minimum wage worker be WITH it?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
That is what the right wants everyone to achieve. Just not the end result being some black guy. Only the white guys using daddy's money and name. That's how it looks to most of us, anyway

Dude, you are seriously messed up if that's actually how you see it. Of course, there will be a deafening silence from those here on the left because its always nice to have a useful idiot do the heavy lifting. That's the same reason politicians often don't call those out who imply candidates are responsible for their fathers death or were not born here.

As marginalized as I often feel on these boards as a Christian, it is actually helping me to at least start to lift out of the political three ring circus and to feel less like just another pawn for the DNC or RNC. Obviously I'm a work in progress.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

Romney was unelectable before.

Now...he is a joke and a bully and scoundrel to everyday hardworking Americans.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5637 posts, RR: 29
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10342 times:

I won't guess who will win, but I am surprised at how many "Obama 2998" type of people I know that at least say they aren't voting for him again. I'm 99% sure it's the job market and gas prices that they are unhappy about. Heck, even my mom clicked Like on Mitt Romney's Facebook page. Never saw that coming.

That's just anecdotal evidence in my personal circle of what people are saying and responding to -YMMV. I also think that if Hillary were running, she'd take it. Oh well...

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
am surprised at how many "Obama 2998" type of people I know that at least say they aren't voting for him again. I'm 99% sure it's the job market and gas prices that they are unhappy about.

What you said here is why sometimes I get so miffed about fellow voters. Hello! The President doesn't control the economy/jobs/gas prices like a genie could out of a bottle. Sure they can influence policy that can positively enforce everyday Americans' security. But, that is far more complicated and takes far longer time than most voters have patience for.

Still, if I'm an everyday worker and I see these comments on one side...how is that not going to turn me off? It is shameful. To say 47% of Americans are freeloaders when you are running for the President of the US is beyond shameful. (And the math was incorrectly rounded up, when it should have been correctly rounded (down)...)



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10303 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 36):
Romney was unelectable before.

Now...he is a joke and a bully and scoundrel to everyday hardworking Americans.

The disturbing line of thought in what he said .. is 'as if some half the nation have been on gov't assistance forever. Half the country??? Just summarily dismissing the contributions of the millions who've lost their jobs over the last 8-10 years.

That's purely insane! I've been to 41 of the 50 states and that's just not true in any sense.

Anyone know how many Congressmen/women are now retired and collecting full pay for life over the last 40 years..even after a meager 2 years of service! State County and City officials as well.

I'd like to see the Corporate Welfare dollar figures matched against the entitlement figures followed by the numbers of recipients of each.

Kill off all the Gov't contracts to perennial holders of such who are paid billions and deliver far less in the services they provide. And see who joins the 47% thru no choice of their own.

Guys like Romney never speak of 'when they suck off the Gov't teat' (Corporate Welfare & his HUGE Olympics Taxpayer financed payday) but have no problem bashing those barely surviving in the trailerparks of West Virginia - there are only so many jobs to be had. To claim you have God on your side speak so harshly of the weak and poor is just beyond my comprehension... I really don't know how these 'god types' do this.

Romney proudly just directly insulting half of the United States of America. Half the Nation.

Those out there saying he's ..'telling the truth' .. really? Then ask yourself, do you also 'just tell the truth'?
Have you told your girlfriend's dad his breath stinks?
Have told her mom she's too fat?
Have you told your grandmother her house smells like cats and medicine?
Or your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend he she is beginning to look somewhat unattractive?
..if so, I'm certain they have a few truthful things to tell you as well.

You 'he's telling the truth' types are either liars or lack the good sense or completely ignorant of the axiom 'discretion is the better part of valor'...

...whoever recorded Romney's comments, is proof in and of itself - proof that 'he had no idea to whom he was speaking'..he might as well have been speaking at the RNC Convention. No one can blame the person recording the event ..that's like blaming the guy who shot the Rodney King videotape for everything that occurred in the aftermath...saying it's not meant for public consumption.

This man just insulted half of America... now that he has..what will the other half do? (as if they know who they are)

Defend them?
Stand with them?
Separate and divide from them.

....if you choose to separate from them you are just that easily parted from your countrymen..in other words, it's not difficult for any enemy to set you against yourselves.



Instead of laughing at Romney, Barack Obama must be shaking his head in disbelief that this man would be this indiscreet and reckless.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2896 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10289 times:

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 22):
the guys says he doesn't give a toss about nearly 150 million people...seriously, if stupidity had a photo then Mitt would be the poster! There is more to come from his speech too, can't imagine how much worse it could be.

Heard earlier on ABC national news

They reckon, he's just lost the election !  



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7221 posts, RR: 57
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10260 times:

Bloomberg saying the same

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...mitt-romney-lost-the-election.html


This is an utter disaster for Romney.

Romney already has trouble relating to the public and convincing people he cares about them. Now, he's been caught on video saying that nearly half the country consists of hopeless losers.

Romney has been vigorously denying President Obama's claims that his tax plan would raise taxes on the middle class. Now, he's been caught on video suggesting that low- and middle-income Americans are undertaxed.

(That one is especially problematic given the speculation about what's on Mitt's unreleased pre-2010 tax returns.)


Romney is the most opaque presidential nominee since Nixon, and people have been reduced to guessing what his true feelings are. This video provides an answer: He feels that you're a loser. It's not an answer that wins elections.




The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7585 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10254 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland

Not true Valmat in Finland have been contract manufacturing motorvhicles for decades, the Saab 900 and gen 1 Porsche Boxter are two of the vehicles they have made. Those stimulus dollars have gone towards re-equipping an auto plant in the US and on R&D which is also happening in the US by US based employees. But don't let the truth get in the way will you.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8188 posts, RR: 26
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10248 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
That's why I'm voting Romeny/Ryan. Both of them are self-made men. We need more people in this country who don't rely on the government.

Highly debatable - but if you're being truly objective you have to include Obama in there too, as BMI727 said.

It's worth noting that Ryan has been a government employee longer than any of them - he became employed as a congressional staffer in 1992. He turned 22 that year. He was then elected to congress in 1998. Is that really self made? Hmm...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The modern day Democratic Party is centered on bribing people to vote for them - people who will get more sh&t from the government than they pay in

Partially true, but again, if you're being objective, the truth is that both parties bribe people to vote for them, the handouts just come in different forms. Defense jobs, farm subsidies, whatever the case may be. All the same crap if you ask me. Not to mention this pesky little fact - that the largest number of nontaxpayers are found predominantly in red states.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
The solution is to stop vilifying those who are doing the outsourcing and look at the underlying factors causing them to do so. That's what needs to change.

     

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
For me personally, I think they both have a real heart for their country that is nonetheless overshadow by a lust for power, control, and ego-stroking.

Definitely so.   



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7221 posts, RR: 57
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

In the new york times, conservative pundit David Brooks asks...

"when will the incompetence stop?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/op...s-thurston-howell-romney.html?_r=0



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1278 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10211 times:

Wow, Romney clearly has no concept of the working poor.

I never liked Obama much but his opposition is crazy.

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
Also I think it is disgusting that someone went in there and recorded things illegally I assume.

So I assume that you are also disgusted at all the secretive recording and selective editing that Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe did to Acorn?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Actually, it is a problem. If everyone wanted to me mega-wealthy like Mitt Romney, our entire country would collapse. Few people get wealthy serving in our military, but we need soldiers. Few people get wealthy being teachers, but we need them.

   Some people have to work long and hard to do the dirty/less desirable/low paying jobs. Romney seems to have no appreciation of these people's societal contributions at all. In my mind, it takes a lot of sacrifice to choose a career path that gives you a low likelihood of becoming highly financially stressful (how many teachers are on million dollar salaries?).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Don't have a job? It's because the government didn't provide one. Don't have money? Let the government take care of it.

That blame the government mentality sounds a lot like something a guy called Paul Ryan said a few weeks ago:

Quote:
If you%u2019re feeling left out or passed by: You have not failed, your leaders have failed you.

Source: https://twitter.com/PaulRyanVP/status/241368697900527616

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
The real people of this country who work at Wal-Mart and McDonalds end up on food stamps and government health care because people like Romney and Ryan and McConnell and Prevus and Rush and FOX tell everyone that it is the minimum wage workers to blame for the income inequality. Not the Wal-Mart/McDonalds workers. But, the Wal-Mart/McDonalds worders ARE the minimum wage workers!

   and then there are people like Michele Bachmann who say that lowering or abolishing the minimum wage will solve their problems.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland

It wasn't stimulus dollars, it was a department of energy program which was 'signed into existence' by that enviro-hippie George W Bush.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...imulus-money-went-buy-electric-ca/

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
I think they both have a real heart for their country that is nonetheless overshadow by a lust for power, control, and ego-stroking.

Well said, thought to be fair, I think it is the same for pretty much all politicians globally.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10139 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Romney's Recent Controversial Comments

controversial to some left leaning people...

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing."

The truth hurt's sometimes...we need more if it injected into our country and politics

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Speaking on Obama, "Had he been born of Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot of winning this."

Way to misquote and misinterpret what he said..

Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
47% of the population doesn't mean anything to him???

Not what he said...Nice try though

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
Considering those who are the 1% running American companies have been outsourcing labor like crazy in the past 25 years, it's no wonder.

Since Clinton and Gore pushed NAFTA through??? How much did Barry outsource with his stimulus money. Or with his energy policy?

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 13):
"I'm going to just concentrate on those 8-10% who are on the fence because the rest of them are Conservative Religious people who feel entitled to injest their religious vitrol into politics. They think they deserve to be a nation of white Christians only, and lets face it folks, if you don't walk, talk, act, and worship the same God as us all, it's not worth trying to get their vote."

This is what he is thinking and is how he is governing...Wish Barry would have the gonads and come right out and say it..

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
Yes. I don't see how lowering taxes for the upper class is going to do anything when most of the country falls in the middle class demographic.

Latest stats show that the middle class has shrunk because many of them have moved UP.

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
Sure, when facts don't matter.

It is % wise the smallest...nice try though.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
It is obvious to me that Romney and his type claim to love America but have nothing but disdain for Americans
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."

Who is the government? It is the other 53% who are footing thee bill. That is entitlement not civilization. How much extra money do you donate to Uncle Sam every year to support your civilization?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):

Ha! No thanks. You can take that "Entitlement=Civilization" clap trap back to where it belongs alongside communism and national socialism...the rubbish bin of history.

Bingo.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
By promising them jobs and health care. How dare they!

Jobs funded by another tax payer and health care provided at the tip of the Government spear at the expense of someone else. Government does not provide this. They steal from citizen to give to another. Period....

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
What really irritates me is: the right-wing keeps going on and on about how much they love the Christian religions and how they are the party of God but they hate helping anyone other than the super wealthy. They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless.

This line get's really tiring...Who donates more to charity?....we do not consider the government a charity..

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
But where would that millionaire be if no one built the road??

The millionaire paid for the road to be built.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 36):
Now...he is a joke and a bully and scoundrel to everyday hardworking Americans.

Whatever...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 38):
and I see these comments on one side...how is that not going to turn me off?

They are already voting for the hand that will feed them and their next generation...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Just summarily dismissing the contributions of the millions who've lost their jobs over the last 8-10 years.

You mean the last three years he has been in office..There was actual job growth after the tech recession that Bush fixed..

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
I'd like to see the Corporate Welfare dollar figures

What is corporate welfare? allowing them to keep more of the money the made? Another left wing sound bite...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Kill off all the Gov't contracts to perennial holders of such who are paid billions and deliver far less in the services they provide.

Like all of Barry's cronyism with the failed green business's that have collapsed the last few years..

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
You 'he's telling the truth' types are either liars or lack the good sense or completely ignorant of the axiom 'discretion is the better part of valor'...

He is telling the truth

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Separate and divide from them.

Coming from the party that divides everyone into race and class...LOL

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
....if you choose to separate from them you are just that easily parted from your countrymen..in other words, it's not difficult for any enemy to set you against yourselves.

Like Barry has been doing for the last four years with his class and race rhetoric...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Barack Obama must be shaking his head in disbelief that this man would be this indiscreet and reckless.

As Obama tells Putin...Wait till my second term...Then I can really screw my country...

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 44):
In the new york times, conservative pundit David Brooks asks... "when will the incompetence stop?

When Obama is no linger in charge of anything...



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4703 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10104 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
If Mitt was of Mexican descent and Hispanic he would have an easier time winning this election no doubt about it. You quote of it is something I except from CNN or MSNBC.

He never would have made it out of the Republican Primary.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Latest stats show that the middle class has shrunk because many of them have moved UP.

Let's see that stat table you have.
Going to be especially hard to prove when the Number of workers is less now than it was in 2007, and the population has increased.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
You mean the last three years he has been in office..There was actual job growth after the tech recession that Bush fixed..

And how much was due to that Housing bubble we all love?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):

http://www.businessinsider.com/labor...012-9

Interesting that you choose to follow up a chart that shows people are going back to work with a percentage chart on the labor pool.
the percentages are down due to the recession, which from that previous chart you can see that the highest number of workers were employed in Dec 2007, giving bush a full year to get the can moving south.

Also in that chart you can see that Bush's tax cuts didn't really do anything to recover from the tech bubble. As Clinton held the highers participation rates.

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing."

This 47% number was careless and wild, and his belief in entitlements is really crass. Especially when Mr. Silver Spoon never had to struggle to go to college. The cute little story ann told of them living in an apartment to resonate with families looses a bit of perspective when you realize they were living off of an investment paying dividends.

He put down a lot of people. Now the truth is, that as shown by the graph Aaron747 put up, is that a lot of them won't see the slight. They will assume he was talking about those "other" people.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
Partially true, but again, if you're being objective, the truth is that both parties bribe people to vote for them, the handouts just come in different forms. Defense jobs, farm subsidies, whatever the case may be. All the same crap if you ask me. Not to mention this pesky little fact - that the largest number of nontaxpayers are found predominantly in red states.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2298 posts, RR: 5
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10100 times:

Latest stats show that the Middle Class has shrunk because most of them have moved UP...??? Uuuuh, heeelloooo! McFly...pick up book, read book, ooga booga, drop club, make fire, see wheel roll.

Welcome to rational enlightenment. Or maybe you thought burying that comment in the middle would make it past anyone with even 10% of their wits about them?


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 727 posts, RR: 14
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10091 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
Sure, when facts don't matter.
http://www.dlt.ri.gov/lmi/laus/us/us...j.htm

Impressive use of facts from a primary source! The most impressive posts stick to the facts.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):
Nice try...
http://www.businessinsider.com/labor...ts-lowest-level-in-31-years-2012-9
.

In fairness to CMF, you have repeatedly on various threads claimed under Obama, America has the

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
smallest labor force in 30+ years.

....which is not true, as CMF proved. What you obviously meant to say is smallest labor force participation rate, which has been falling well before Obama took office and will shrink even smaller by 2020 regardless of who is president because Baby Boomers are retiring in record numbers.. Retirees, students and voluntarily deciding to become a housewife all shrink the participation rate. But so does just giving up trying to work, which is obviously what you want these figures mean....but your version does not consider retirees and that even if Romney wins the labor participation rate will likely be even smaller than Obama's as retirements increase.
(...most industrialised nations are in the same boat, btw, which is hell on the pension schemes)

Many thanks to Flyguy89 and CMF for trying to keep the debate on verifiable facts instead of the usual heresay and partisan rhetoric.

Pu


explains a little more about why labor force participation is shrinking
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ce/2012/05/04/gIQANXAy1T_blog.html

[Edited 2012-09-18 06:34:52]

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10055 times:

This is politics guys. Everyone going crazy over this is one of two things:
Hates Republicans or more simply just wants Obama to win or
Does not understand a thing about politics in this country.

This is how people talk to people they are looking to gain millions of dollars for it just happens to be that some scum of a person took this trust given to him or her and leaked it. I guarantee you President Obama has said controversial things at his private fundraisers too. And this is not even that controversial. He is saying pretty much the truth there is a large segment of the population that they should not worry about for the election this election and most presidential elections are decided by 3-5% of the people here. All that money is going to them. Romney needed to tell these people what he needs their money for. This was a conversation that every single politician in the world has with their donors or staff etc..

This is the type of stuff hardcore donors want to hear. He is playing the game of politics.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
By promising them jobs and health care. How dare they!

Where are the jobs?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Those out there saying he's ..'telling the truth' .. really? Then ask yourself, do you also 'just tell the truth'? Have you told your girlfriend's dad his breath stinks?Have told her mom she's too fat?Have you told your grandmother her house smells like cats and medicine?Or your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend he she is beginning to look somewhat unattractive? ..if so, I'm certain they have a few truthful things to tell you as well.You 'he's telling the truth' types are either liars or lack the good sense or completely ignorant of the axiom 'discretion is the better part of valor'...

No, but you tell you friends these types of things all the time.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 47):
He never would have made it out of the Republican Primary.

Tell that to Marco Rubio who no doubt will be the front runner in 2016 if Obama wins.There are plenty of Hispanic Republicans all over the nation not just South Florida.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4703 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10043 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):

Tell that to Marco Rubio who no doubt will be the front runner in 2016 if Obama wins.There are plenty of Hispanic Republicans all over the nation not just South Florida.

Rubio will not be a frontrunner. Not from the GOP. They will move back to a centralist like Christie, or they wil go far to the right with Paul Ryan/Sanitorum.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12755 posts, RR: 25
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9977 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
The media will overblow this for about 3 weeks or so and then they'll find something to rip on.

Disagree. This is a pivot point, one that obviously is against Romney. The polls last week already showed the tide turning against Romney and this will accelerate it. Last week it was already being said that GOP SuperPACs were pulling money away from Romney and towards important Senate races because the big money sensed that Romney's cause was lost (perhaps because they knew this was coming out?), and that too will only accelerate.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
It's really kinda weird. He has a point though...maybe it's not 47% of the people, but it's Americans themselves who have become a real slave to the government. They rely too much on the government for handouts, and they refuse to grow themselves, become themselves by themselves. They want those who have made themselves (the so-called 1%) to be the ones who pay for THEM. It's pathetic. We have become a nation of lazy dullards.

For better or worse, Romney now owns these comments. If he had any true character, he'd step up and own them and start a true debate on entitlements reform instead of him continuing to make intentionally vague statements about this topic. In short, his reaction to being 'outed' needs to be for him to double-down on the issue.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I'm not a Romney history guru, but I'm skeptical of this comment. Did he get to where he is WITHOUT any help from his father? Not saying he hasn't worked hard, but he needs to recognize the help that he received and realize not everyone has that.

Romney grew up in an affluent Detroit suburb while his dad was CEO of American Motors and then Governor of Michigan. I think that answers the question.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
It is pretty accurate. The modern day Democratic Party is centered on bribing people to vote for them - people who will get more sh&t from the government than they pay in (if they pay anything). The day that number crosses 50%, there will be champagne corks popping all through the DNC - they see this as a great political goal.

Speaking of dullard comments...

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 11):
I do not think ANYONE is successful from the ground up without some sort of government assistance.

  

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 15):
Then how is it possible that we've had such vast swaths of 4% unemployment in the past 25 years (the lowest it can statistically go)?

Have you been awake for those 25 years? Didn't you notice the internet boom and the real estate boom and then the Great Financial Crisis?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
It is obvious to me that Romney and his type claim to love America but have nothing but disdain for Americans.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
So? How is any of that my problem? (For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day)

Nice way to highlight Bill Clinton's takeaway point from his speech at the DNC: "The most important question is, what kind of country do you want to live in? If you want a you're-on-your-own, winner-take-all society, you should support the Republican ticket. If you want a country of shared prosperity and shared responsibility -- a we're-all-in-this-together society -- you should vote for Barack Obama and Joe Biden."

Clearly Romney is in this for whatever he can get, even if this means ignoring the problems of 47% of the people.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Romney turned around Staples, Dunkin Donuts, Home Depot, and Baskin Robins among others, almost 90% of the companies Romney and Bain Capital invested in were successfully turned around, companies that would have otherwise gone bankrupt, jobs that would have otherwise been lost. Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland, solar panel manufacturing in Mexico, and made bridge loans to Brazil to drill for oil while he puts the boot on the neck of our energy sector here in the States.

Talk about cherry picking... Do you really believe Romney does nothing but good and Obama does nothing but bad?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
Romney has been vigorously denying President Obama's claims that his tax plan would raise taxes on the middle class. Now, he's been caught on video suggesting that low- and middle-income Americans are undertaxed.

Many of us have pointed out for a while now that Romney's claimed sympathies for the middle class rang hollow, and his lack of clarity on his positions had an ulterior motive, and now in a minute of unguarded talk he's shown his true colors.

[Edited 2012-09-18 08:10:58]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2723 posts, RR: 46
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9920 times:

This sums it up nicely:

Many people have been reduced to guessing what Romney's true feelings are. This video provides an answer: He feels that you're a loser.

  


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4034 posts, RR: 13
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9911 times:

I can predict the future well -

In 2013 the best-seller book in America is going to be...

Going Rogue: An American Life by Mitt Romney



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9881 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
controversial to some left leaning people...

Wow, what an epic spinning post..    Say, are you by any chance seeing your candidate's chances going down the drain, and you're trying to stem yourself against it with all your might? I honestly feel with you, because it must be a terrible feeling, but your attempt to re-interpret his statement into some "uncomfortable truth" thing seems helpless. Romney is done for. You can't insult half a country and still expect the other half to vote for you.

The thing is that this leak isn't a "gaffe" like some people say. What Joe Biden does are gaffes. "You didn't build it" was a gaffe - it was a stupid thing to say because it was so easy to take it out of context and use it against him. In this case, we got a glimpse into Romney's true thinking, and we now know that he doesn't care about the less fortunate half of America. That's his choice really, but it will make him unelectable in November.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12526 posts, RR: 35
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9875 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."

  

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
Of course, we have no idea what Mitt has paid over the past several years in federal income taxes, since he steadfastly refuses to release more than TWO years of tax statements. Personally, I think Mitt gave himself a fatal self-inflicted wound with this comment, as he will NEVER escape this error in the mind of independent voters.

I think he is showing his true colours now; the hypcrisy of the man just beggars belief; he probably earned more from his tax attorneys' manipulation of US tax law than the combined salaries of dozens of people, yet he feels that he has the right to accuse them of being spongers. The only thing he didn't say was "let them eat cake".

I am very glad to see that the tide is finally turning against him; let's just hope that in 2016, the Republicans can produce someone with a decent amount of humanity and humility.


User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9863 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
Yeah I'm sure Ryan was living the lush life off his single working mom's money.

You have your facts wrong. Ryan comes from a VERY wealthy family. His family owned the construction empire Ryan Inc. they built a good chunk of he Insterstate system.

Self made man indeed.

Even you single mom bt is off. Ryan's father did unfortunately die, but Ryan was already 16. Nonetheless, he received social security survivors benefits and used the money (though he probably did not need it) to pay for college.

In comparison, I paid for my own college.

You may have confused Paul Ryan with Barack Obama, who actually did grow up raised by a single mother on food stamps. But Romney and Ryan are the self made men? Makes no sense.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9868 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):By promising them jobs and health care. How dare they!
Where are the jobs?
Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Jobs funded by another tax payer and health care provided at the tip of the Government spear at the expense of someone else. Government does not provide this. They steal from citizen to give to another. Period....

For years we have been told "give the rich tax breaks and they will create jobs." We were told in the time of Reagan to let the money flow to the top and it will trickle down. Where are the jobs? Where is the trickle?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Romney turned around Staples, Dunkin Donuts, Home Depot, and Baskin Robins

Ah. So, we are just forgetting his time a Bain Capital when he parted out factories, saddled them with debt and ran off with the profits? And, also, giving people minimum wage jobs that are supposed to support a family? How does that help? Those people are supposed to go from making $30 an hour with benefits to making $9 and paying for benefits and having their retirement gutted from their good paying job? How is that a good thing?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9823 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Everything the government provides to people also has to come from people. The government is a service that provides things that cannot be done privately. They should not be in the business of redistributing income.

I see... so somehow they should provide these things that cannot be done privately...and do it without money?

That is the logical conclusion of your statement. There should be NO taxes, NO money involved. Otherwise, it is, by definition, wealth distribution.

If you pay $10 in annual taxes and I pay $100M in annual taxes we both benefit the same from the military, the highways, the electrical grid, police, fire, etc. So that's wealth distribution right there. I guess you feel that we should get rid of all of that?

But the bit that really burns my shorts is that the GOP wants to INCREASE government spending by trillions of dollars without increasing taxes...all in the name of balancing the government. You are either for smaller government or you are for bigger government. This isn't about the GOP wanting smaller government. Ron Paul wants smaller government. The GOP, who rejected him, wants ENORMOUS government. They want ENORMOUS wealth distribution with trillions of tax dollars going to the military-industrial and security-industrial complexes. The big difference is that the GOP wealth distribution would tax the middle-class while redistributing that wealth to the rich.

Given the choice between those two different scenarios of wealth redistribution, I'd prefer the Democrat model.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):

Romney grew up in an affluent Detroit suburb while his dad was CEO of American Motors and then Governor of Michigan. I think that answers the question.

I grew up in the same suburb. Now, I've worked very hard in my life to get where I am, but I am not "self-made." Every kid in that suburb enjoys enormous cultural and financial advantages from infancy. The public schools alone are among the best in the country. NOBODY who grew up in Bloomfield Township/Bloomfield Hills can call him or herself "self-made." Romney, successful and hard-working though he may be, is as much a product of that community as I am.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
So? How is any of that my problem? (For what it's worth, I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day)

How old are you? If you're over 25 and you aren't well on your way to mega-wealthy, your chances of getting there are effectively zero. Might as well buy lotto tickets.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9809 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
Nice way to highlight Bill Clinton's takeaway point from his speech at the DNC: "The most important question is, what kind of country do you want to live in? If you want a you're-on-your-own, winner-take-all society, you should support the Republican ticket. If you want a country of shared prosperity and shared responsibility -- a we're-all-in-this-together society -- you should vote for Barack Obama and Joe Biden."

Well, I want to be on my own, I don't want to share whatever prosperity I have, and I don't want to share responsibility for all of the stupid people in America. Guess I need the Republicans.


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
I see... so somehow they should provide these things that cannot be done privately...and do it without money?

No, they'll need money. Government is just another bill.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
How old are you?

22

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
If you're over 25 and you aren't well on your way to mega-wealthy, your chances of getting there are effectively zero.

I know the odds are stacked against me. As I've said before, I want the country that gives me even a infinitesimally better chance of becoming a billionaire versus the country that guarantees a middle class life. Win or die trying basically.

[Edited 2012-09-18 09:46:23]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9804 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 58):
Ah. So, we are just forgetting his time a Bain Capital when he parted out factories, saddled them with debt and ran off with the profits?

Stop watching Obama vidoes...

Quoting Rara (Reply 55):
Say, are you by any chance seeing your candidate's chances going down the drain, and you're trying to stem yourself against it with all your might?

No because anyone who is oofended by this is already voting for the relection of Obama.

Quoting Rara (Reply 55):
The thing is that this leak isn't a "gaffe" like some people say

No and I am happy that he was telling the truth. The truth is that 47% of people who file federal income taxes do not pay any taxes. That's not only a fact, it's a crime. And most of them ar Democratic Party supporters. this is how they stay in power.

Quoting D L X (Reply 57):
Barack Obama, who actually did grow up raised by a single mother on food stamps

Those food stamps sure did cover some good private schools and colleges..  
Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 53):
Many people have been reduced to guessing what Romney's true feelings are. This video provides an answer: He feels that you're a loser.

Once again things being taken way out of context..

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
The polls last week already showed the tide turning against Romney and this will accelerate

The polls last week are and this week are bunk. They are all democrat loaded...And even with that he is barely up in most.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
and now in a minute of unguarded talk he's shown his true colors.

Did you listen to the whole speech. Once again another one taken out of context and as with the others this will not hold with the masses.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
even if this means ignoring the problems of 47% of the people.

Where did he ever say that he will ignore the problems of those 47% who pay no taxes?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7585 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9774 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 60):
I know the odds are stacked against me. As I've said before, I want the country that gives me even a infinitesimally better chance of becoming a billionaire versus the country that guarantees a middle class life. Win or die trying basically.

Better move to Russia, China or India those countries are freshly minting new billionaires quicker than the US is.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9760 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Romney got his mony from daddy

No he donated his inheritance to charity...Romney’s tax returns show that he donated over $7 million in 2010-2011 alone, over 16% of his income. How much did BArry and Uncle Joe donate?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...jects-obamas-silver-spoon-comment/

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Just not the end result being some black guy

You mean bi-racial guy? right..Remember his trip to Ireland to visit family?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 21):
God but they hate helping anyone other than the super wealthy. They refuse to feed the hungry or heal the sick or house the homeless
Quote:
Romney and his wife Ann also maintain a separate foundation, established in 1999…The couple have contributed approximately$13.6 million, including an initial gift of more than $3.6 million, to their Tyler Charitable Foundation, based in Boston, MA, in the past 13 years.

Since the Tyler Foundation began making grants in 2000, its annual disbursements have averaged approximately $650,000 per year. The foundation’s most active years were 2003 and 2008, with approximately $2 million given away in each. In 2010, the most recent year for which data is available, the foundation hit its average, donating $650,000.

and

Quote:
Years after a business partner died unexpectedly, Romney helped the man’s surviving daughter go to medical school with loans for tuition – loans he forgave when she graduated.

and

Quote:
On April 4, 1995, four of Mark and Sheryl Nixon’s six children were driving back from a youth group meeting outside Boston when the driver of the minivan they were in lost control of the vehicle, which side-swiped a utility pole, struck two trees and flipped over.

The two front seat passengers – Rob and Reed Nixon, both high-school athletes – were severely injured in the wreck, their necks shattered, their bodies paralyzed. The boys underwent numerous surgeries, and the family quickly incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars of expenses, not only for the treatments but also for a special van and an addition to their house to accommodate their sons’ conditions.

New to the Boston area and without the means to pay for their sons’ care, the Nixons had few places to turn for help.

Enter Mitt Romney. On Christmas Eve, the Romney family showed up at the Nixon home unannounced, bearing large boxes full of gifts, including a stereo system, VCR and a generous check for Rob, Reed and the entire Nixon family.

“I knew [Romney's] schedule. I knew how busy he was. And their whole family came. He was actually teaching his boys, saying, ‘This is what we do. We do this as a family,’” Mark Nixon told Michael Kranish and Scott Helman in “The Real Romney.” “We’ve never forgotten it,” Sheryl added. “It stood out so much in our minds and helped us to want to be better parents, too.”

Romney later offered to pay for the boys’ college education and participated in a 5K road race and fundraiser for them. In subsequent years, he also made large financial gifts to a golf tournament in their honor.

and

Quote:
Ken Smith, the former director of the New England Center for Homeless Veterans, also came on Beck’s show to discuss what Buzzfeed called “a cringe worthy moment in 1994.”

During the visit to the shelter, Smith said Romney first looked at the shelter’s books for about 45 minutes and then took a tour of the facility. At the end of the tour, Romney asked what Smith’s biggest problem was. Smith told him the shelter had problems paying for milk, and Romney replied, “Well Ken, maybe you can teach the vets to milk cows.”

The next day, Smith said, the newspapers were killing him for the remark, and Romney called Smith to apologize. The following day, the milkman showed up, offloaded his milk and gave Smith a bill that was half of its normal size. The same things happened for a month, two months, three months, and then for a full two years, Smith said. Finally, on the day the milkman was to retire, he told Smith that Romney had been paying for the milk.

“Romney’s generosity has helped tens of thousands of veterans who are homeless, who have been through this facility, with nourishment,” Smith said. “The milk cartons said the name of the milk company, it didn’t say, ‘donated by Mitt Romney.’”
http://www.redstate.com/2012/09/17/mitt-romney-friend-in-need/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/edwindur...llions-mitt-romney-has-given-away/

Romney has done far more for people in his life than Obama and Biden combined..



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6623 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9741 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

controversial to some left leaning people...

Controversial enough for him to speak late on Monday- did anyone notice that his hair was a bit unkempt??

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):

No and I am happy that he was telling the truth

OH PLEASE! you are happy that he tells the truth?!! That is a laugh.,. If you were happy that the "truth" is out there you should be clamoring for the release of his tax returns!. After all they are the "truth" no?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):

No and I am happy that he was telling the truth. The truth is that 47% of people who file federal income taxes do not pay any taxes. That's not only a fact, it's a crime. And most of them ar Democratic Party supporters. this is how they stay in power.

There are no Republicans that don't pay taxes?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9744 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Those food stamps sure did cover some good private schools and colleges

Scholarships are very nice things.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12755 posts, RR: 25
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9742 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
This isn't about the GOP wanting smaller government. Ron Paul wants smaller government. The GOP, who rejected him, wants ENORMOUS government. They want ENORMOUS wealth distribution with trillions of tax dollars going to the military-industrial and security-industrial complexes. The big difference is that the GOP wealth distribution would tax the middle-class while redistributing that wealth to the rich.

  

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
The polls last week are and this week are bunk. They are all democrat loaded...And even with that he is barely up in most.

So, it's "blame the messenger" time already?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Did you listen to the whole speech. Once again another one taken out of context and as with the others this will not hold with the masses.

I did, and I also have seen Romney in action for quite a while, and I stand by my claim that this clip shows his true colors.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Where did he ever say that he will ignore the problems of those 47% who pay no taxes?
"My job is to not worry about those folks"
-- Mitt Romney


Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7TlR4Fstzo

Interesting how the right wingers try to label things as class warfare, yet are silent when their candidate refers to THOSE people...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9715 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
even if this means ignoring the problems of 47% of the people.

Where did he ever say that he will ignore the problems of those 47% who pay no taxes?

This is hilarious and sad at the same time..a myth by Romney has some how gelled into truth.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
I'd like to see the Corporate Welfare dollar figures

What is corporate welfare?

Really? You need to ask?
S&L bailout
Agribusiness subsidies
Nuclear subsidies
Mining subsidies
Export subsidies (these are many and varied including a subsidy for advertising in foreign markets and direct funding for trade shows)
Commercial ship subsidies

Billions upon billions in tax breaks Billions more in subsidies with Lobbyist steamrolling for more by the minute. Insurance companies pay no taxes nor do churches...that's welfare, they each suck off huge advantages from the state.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
47% of the population doesn't mean anything to him???

Not what he said...Nice try though

Nice try...try home run!

By saying and I quote "It's not my job to worry about those people" end quote.

I don't know how many addition ways one can state 'you are of no concern or mean nothing' .. as the British use to say "Sir, you've been handed your hat"... which basically means 'scram, get out, you're not needed here" And many of the rightwing Elite feel exactly that way, they have for 100s of years (I understand why, but cannot bring myself to agree)..

The 47% don't even know who they are .. but more than 47% are certainly going to take umbrage to this ovidian endorsement of Social Darwinism at it's finest.

Romney isn't the 1st to verbalize this...Goldwater tried it in the 1960s and suffered a political bloodbath.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/willia...k/romney-47-percent_b_1892995.html

The nearest analog I can think of was Barry Goldwater's statement that America would be better off if we cut the "eastern seacoast" off and let it float away into the Atlantic Ocean. This led to President Johnson's classic ad of a saw cutting off the eastern seacoast while an announcer read Goldwater's statement. The ad then asked the public the question that applies with even greater force to Romney's admission that he does not worry about the desires of nearly half of all Americans. "Can a man who makes statements like this be expected to serve all the people, justly and fairly?" Romney has made clear he has no intention of serving the 47 percent.

Obama's next commercial is already cut for him courtesy of Mitt Romney..

Saw off half the USA, toss it in the dumpster followed by "I'm Barack Obama, and I don't approve of Mitt Romney's message.

This colossal screw up was one of the many things that falls into Mitt's own "If I tell you, you won't vote me' bin. But he let it out, might as well come with it all now. Because this was the death knell...his Waterloo (and he hates Abba, he thinks they're too violent),

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Separate and divide from them.

Coming from the party that divides everyone into race and class...LOL

Not even close, you'd have a case if Obama stated '47% of white Americans are racist..' the only person you can find Mr. Obama calling racist was his grandmother (of which most whites of her time were). And when he told that truth..suddenly the extreme-Right become scholars of racism. Obama points out one long dead relative and you somehow inflate that up "divides everyone into race and class"..

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
Those out there saying he's ..'telling the truth' .. really? Then ask yourself, do you also 'just tell the truth'? Have you told your girlfriend's dad his breath stinks?Have told her mom she's too fat?Have you told your grandmother her house smells like cats and medicine?Or your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend he she is beginning to look somewhat unattractive? ..if so, I'm certain they have a few truthful things to tell you as well.You 'he's telling the truth' types are either liars or lack the good sense or completely ignorant of the axiom 'discretion is the better part of valor'...

No, but you tell you friends these types of things all the time.

No earthly idea what that even means

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
You 'he's telling the truth' types are either liars or lack the good sense or completely ignorant of the axiom 'discretion is the better part of valor'...

He is telling the truth

And I know a group of hard luck Vietnam-era vets who'd love to hear you say that to their faces.

As R. Lee Ermey says in Full Metal Jacket.. "You better unf**k yourself Private Pile.." ... advice to Mr. Romney and his team. but yet, it's too late, he's already doubled down and cemented his future (and portrait) to the wall of the defeated.


BN747

[Edited 2012-09-18 10:48:47]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9638 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):No, to believe that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should provide for the people is not "entitlement." It's "civilization."
Absolutely! From each according to their ability and to each according to their need, right?

Ha! No thanks. You can take that "Entitlement=Civilization" clap trap back to where it belongs alongside communism and national socialism...the rubbish bin of history.

Seriously. The guy is talking about people who werent going to vote for him anyway, and he was being honest.

The trumped up outrage from the left, who wasn't ever going to vote for the guy anyway, is galling.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9640 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 63):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Romney got his mony from daddy

No he donated his inheritance to charity...

This is extremely misleading.

George Romney died in 1995, when Mitt was 48. FORTY-EIGHT! On top of that, in 1995, Mitt Romney had already been head of Bain and Co. for 11 years. All throughout Mitt's early days, he had the backing of his father's vast wealth. To say that Mitt didn't get money from his dad because he donated his inheritance to charity is the finest quality horse manure on the thread. It's amazing what some people believe.



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User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9610 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
"My job is to not worry about those folks"
-- Mitt Romney

Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7TlR4Fstzo

Interesting how the right wingers try to label things as class warfare, yet are silent when their candidate refers to THOSE people...

Politics. He is talking about campaign MONEY, this is politics and campaign stuff he is talking about not the country, not policy but where the money these donors will give him will go. These people are giving him lots and lots of money they want to know where it will go. It is good resources that he does not waste his money on demographics that most likely wont vote for him no matter what.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 67):

No earthly idea what that even means

You do not tell your girlfriend that the dress she wore looked bad to her face= Don't tell the voters I know you wont vote to me.

You do tell your friends that you did not like the dress your girlfriend wore = You tell your close donors listen this is how we are going to act on this campaign with your money.

It is politics guys every politician has events like this and has discussions like this. It just happens that somebody decided to illegally (under Florida Law) record Romney in the event.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12672 posts, RR: 46
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9606 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
Also I think it is disgusting that someone went in there and recorded things illegally I assume.

While covert recording may be underhand and sneaky, in what way would it be illegal?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9612 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
The polls last week are and this week are bunk. They are all democrat loaded...And even with that he is barely up in most.

Even the Fox polls say that Obama is leading by a considerable amount, how is that democratically loaded?



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7786 posts, RR: 18
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9595 times:

How pathetic politics are

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Well, the U.S. is dangerously close to the point of no return, so the man has a point.

   Obama failed to bring us out of the hole, so we gotta vote him out.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
That's rapidly changing with the smallest labor force in 30+ years.

[checkmark} I was born to a successful family, but they were the result of a very poor working class family. They had to build themselves up in order to make sure I grow properly. Is that such a problem? So be it with Romney. Sure he wasn't born from dirt but his family was, and they made themselves. They therefore raised Romney to provide for himself.

Is success such a bad thing these days?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
Yeah I'm sure Ryan was living the lush life off his single working mom's money.

See above

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Stop watching Obama vidoes...

   Politics is gonna result with blood this year   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9578 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 71):
While covert recording may be underhand and sneaky, in what way would it be illegal?

Well first under Florida law it is illegal to record someone without their consent in a place where they reasonably expect privacy. Whether this private fund raiser event would be a place were someone would not expect to be over heard is up to a judge or jury.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...00-0999/0934/Sections/0934.03.html

Second I have no idea if the Romney Camp did anything like this but they may have been agreements that when you attend an event like this you can't give details let alone videos to the public and media. There is a reason this person is hiding. If they did not do something like this I am sure they will now.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5680 posts, RR: 10
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9576 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 63):
No he donated his inheritance to charity...Romney%u2019s tax returns show that he donated over $7 million in 2010-2011 alone, over 16% of his income. How much did BArry and Uncle Joe donate?

21.8% and 1.5%, respectively.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/04/16...tions-is-he-paying-his-fair-share/

Quoting dl021 (Reply 68):
Seriously. The guy is talking about people who werent going to vote for him anyway, and he was being honest.

The trumped up outrage from the left, who wasn't ever going to vote for the guy anyway, is galling.

But that is a huge problem of politicos nowadays, that for some reason politicians seem to think that they only need to work for those that int their political party voted for them or supported them and not the rest of the people. Our politicians are supposed to represent and work for EVERY ONE of their constituents.

When a Democrat gets elected, they MUST include and address their Republican (and Independent, Libertarian, etc.) voter's wishes as well. It is also true for elected Republican's. They may not hold those values but they are representing those people and they need to value their views (likely based on how many of their constituents are that way)

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9572 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 34):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
That Romney is going to lose the independents because of "this" or "that", yet Romney continues to lead by good margins among independents.

If Romney is leading by "good margins" among independents, plus he obviously leads with Republicans, how are they "statistically tied"? Conservatives independents = 60-70% of the electorate

Because polls only take into account LIKELY voters.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Those stimulus dollars have gone towards re-equipping an auto plant in the US and on R&D which is also happening in the US by US based employees. But don't let the truth get in the way will you.

No. That is what the money was SUPPOSED to be used for, Fisker took the money and then promptly shelved plans to open a manufacturing plant in the US and instead expanded it's current manufacturing in Finland.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 45):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland

It wasn't stimulus dollars, it was a department of energy program which was 'signed into existence' by that enviro-hippie George W Bush.

Nice try, but the money lent to the likes of Fisker and Solyndra were not approved under Bush and only fast-tracked and stamped for approval by the Obama administration.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 47):
Interesting that you choose to follow up a chart that shows people are going back to work with a percentage chart on the labor pool.

The number of people going back to work is overshadowed by those dropping out of the work force. If people were overwhelmingly going back to work, we'd actually see a slight increase in the unemployment rate as, the way it's calculated, only counts those individuals actively looking for work.

The number of jobs being created each month isn't even enough to keep up with population growth let alone begin to add net jobs to the economy, thus joblessness continues to increase. The economy needs to be producing 150,000 jobs a month just to break even with population growth and even more to instigate a recovery.

Quoting pu (Reply 49):
What you obviously meant to say is smallest labor force participation rate

Agreed, I should have made the distinction.

Quoting pu (Reply 49):
which has been falling well before Obama took office and will shrink even smaller by 2020 regardless of who is president because Baby Boomers are retiring in record numbers.

The trend had been downward, but the rate at which it has been falling over the past four years has been THE sharpest since the statistics started being calculated. Baby Boomers aren't even the ones seeing the sharpest decline in their labor force participation, rather the 16-24 age group has been the hardest hit, granted many of them are going back to school, but that's not really a positive at when one considers they're doing so to avoid the work force because of the jobs situation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Romney turned around Staples, Dunkin Donuts, Home Depot, and Baskin Robins among others, almost 90% of the companies Romney and Bain Capital invested in were successfully turned around, companies that would have otherwise gone bankrupt, jobs that would have otherwise been lost. Obama on the other hand gave stimulus dollars to help build an auto plant in Finland, solar panel manufacturing in Mexico, and made bridge loans to Brazil to drill for oil while he puts the boot on the neck of our energy sector here in the States.

Talk about cherry picking... Do you really believe Romney does nothing but good and Obama does nothing but bad?

Correction: It was an 80% success rate, and where did I say Romney does nothing but good and Obama nothing but bad?

Quoting D L X (Reply 57):
Ryan comes from a VERY wealthy family.

Upper middle class at best according to those familiar with the family.

Quoting D L X (Reply 57):
Nonetheless, he received social security survivors benefits and used the money (though he probably did not need it) to pay for college.

So? Why shouldn't he? His father paid into social security, there's nothing wrong with anybody getting survivors benefits.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 58):
For years we have been told "give the rich tax breaks and they will create jobs." We were told in the time of Reagan to let the money flow to the top and it will trickle down. Where are the jobs? Where is the trickle?

Hello! Were you not around in the 80's? When was the last time we only gave tax breaks to the "rich"? The Bush tax cuts were across-the-board cuts for all tax brackets and Romney is proposing the same. Additionally, what do you expect to accomplish by raising taxes? Do you actually think that's going to help the economy and help bring those jobs back from China?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 58):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Romney turned around Staples, Dunkin Donuts, Home Depot, and Baskin Robins

Ah. So, we are just forgetting his time a Bain Capital when he parted out factories, saddled them with debt and ran off with the profits?

80% of the companies invested in were turned around successfully versus being on the brink of liquidation before Bain.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 58):
And, also, giving people minimum wage jobs that are supposed to support a family? How does that help?

Again, versus what alternative? Not having a job at all and shipping the work overseas?

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
If you were happy that the "truth" is out there you should be clamoring for the release of his tax returns!. After all they are the "truth" no?

Yes, and so are Obama's academic records, why does he continue to conceal those?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
The polls last week are and this week are bunk. They are all democrat loaded...And even with that he is barely up in most.

So, it's "blame the messenger" time already?

They consistently oversample Democrats, what more do you want? And even with that skew they're still statistically tied.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Interesting how the right wingers try to label things as class warfare, yet are silent when their candidate refers to THOSE people...

Like those "bitter people who cling to their guns and religion" right?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
"My job is to not worry about those folks"
-- Mitt Romney

When did "not worry" = ignore?


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8650 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9544 times:

Now everybody can tell that Romney's campaign is off the train tracks since the RNC convention came off as a disaster, Romney has accused Obama of sympathy for the people who attacked our embassies and now says Obama supporters pretty much all of them are government lechers and and otherwise un American. There is one thing this any many other Obama supporters have to say to Willard, the RNC chair Reinse P(explicit)is and all the brainless conservatives out there in Limbaugh Land. I work, I go to school, I pay taxes, I abide by the law and worst of all I VOTE, I vote Democrat and I vote all the time. Romney loves the ides that poor people are lazy, shiftless and loves to suck on the government teat for free cheese. A lot of people on the government dole are people who work minimum wage, most are not lazy but are characterized as such.

I also refuse to believe that American greatness died with the end of the muscle car, the passage of the Voting Rights Act, the election of Barack Obama or any modern Democrat or the change in the composition of neighborhoods.

And he is still behind in nearly all the poles. He might as well tell his supporters to breed more for the sake of the party. Bashing Obama voters, voter suppression, gay, Muslim, science, minority, union, and hourly workers are not going to help him bring up his pole numbers.

At least he is winning the admiration of Rush Limbaugh and Eric Erikson.

[Edited 2012-09-18 12:27:41]


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9528 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
D L X said: Ryan comes from a VERY wealthy family.

Upper middle class at best according to those familiar with the family.

Wait, you JUST suggested before that Ryan was poor when you said he only had his

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
single working mom's money.

So which is it?

PS, The Internet says you're wrong.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/13/us...e-of-paul-ryan.html?pagewanted=all

Quote:
Much of the Ryans’ wealth is in the form of trusts and inheritances, some of them acquired fairly recently.

Mr. Ryan reported two tax-deferred college savings plans, with a combined value of between $150,000 and $300,000. He also reported two investment partnerships worth, in total, between $350,000 and $750,000, mostly containing shares of stock in well-known companies, including Apple, Goodrich, Kraft Foods, Visa and Whole Foods. Both partnerships were formed by Mr. Ryan and other family members to manage assets left by his grandparents and an aunt.

Self made man indeed.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
So? Why shouldn't he? His father paid into social security, there's nothing wrong with anybody getting survivors benefits.

Nothing's wrong with it until you claim to be self made.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9523 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Obama failed to bring us out of the hole, so we gotta vote him out.

No, we are climbing out of the hole. In 2010 the Tea Party-backed GOP got into congress and immediately said that their FIRST priority was making Obama a one-term President.

Their strategy for this was:
1) Block any legislation that might assist an economic recovery. Economic recovery under a Democratic president cannot be allowed by the GOP because then he'd get re-elected. So sabotage the economy and blame it on the President
2) Disenfranchise voters who are likely to vote Democrat by alleging massive voter fraud and kicking lots of people off the rolls.
3) Run a lie-based smear campaign against the President using lots of money from rich donors alleging that he is a) not a citizen b) a Muslim c) terrorist sympathizer d) a communist (and a Nazi at the same time, which is interesting).


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9499 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 78):
Quote:
Much of the Ryans’ wealth is in the form of trusts and inheritances, some of them acquired fairly recently.

Mr. Ryan reported two tax-deferred college savings plans, with a combined value of between $150,000 and $300,000. He also reported two investment partnerships worth, in total, between $350,000 and $750,000, mostly containing shares of stock in well-known companies, including Apple, Goodrich, Kraft Foods, Visa and Whole Foods. Both partnerships were formed by Mr. Ryan and other family members to manage assets left by his grandparents and an aunt.

Self made man indeed.

$150,000-$300,000 in student loans? Wait, I thought he didn't need any help paying for college with his family's wealth and all?

Quoting D L X (Reply 78):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
So? Why shouldn't he? His father paid into social security, there's nothing wrong with anybody getting survivors benefits.

Nothing's wrong with it until you claim to be self made.

Many people receive survivor's benefits but not all of them rise to become a well-regarded Congressman. So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Obama failed to bring us out of the hole, so we gotta vote him out.

No, we are climbing out of the hole. In 2010 the Tea Party-backed GOP got into congress and immediately said that their FIRST priority was making Obama a one-term President.


Oh geez, stop drinking the party-line Kool Aid. I suppose the poor Democrats were just oh so accommodating and oh so open to compromise as well, right?

Here was there latest strategy on negotiating the Bush tax cuts: http://news.yahoo.com/democratic-sen...cuts-expire-170251157--sector.html Just letting taxes go up on everyone if taxes aren't hiked on the rich...how compromising of them   Stop acting like the partisanship is one-sided.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12755 posts, RR: 25
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9491 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 67):
This colossal screw up was one of the many things that falls into Mitt's own "If I tell you, you won't vote me' bin. But he let it out, might as well come with it all now

Indeed, he owns this now, and his best strategy is to put out his ideas on entitlement reform and lead the country into an honest discussion of the issue.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 68):
The guy is talking about people who werent going to vote for him anyway, and he was being honest

Indeed, and he's all about making the 1%ers richer, not about how to get more people the opportunities they need to become income taxpayers.

Quoting flymia (Reply 70):
He is talking about campaign MONEY, this is politics and campaign stuff he is talking about not the country, not policy but where the money these donors will give him will go.

Baloney! Re-read the thread starter:

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing."

You honestly think this is just about "politics and campaign stuff"?

I think you are trying to spin the situation, and failing miserably.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Is success such a bad thing these days?

It is if that success is only accessible to 1%ers and their offspring, and many of the Romney/Ryan policies are heading in that direction.

Quoting flymia (Reply 74):
Well first under Florida law it is illegal to record someone without their consent in a place where they reasonably expect privacy. Whether this private fund raiser event would be a place were someone would not expect to be over heard is up to a judge or jury.

Arguing about the tape recorder didn't help Richard Nixon much either.

It's out there, Romney better get ahead of it, or be prepared to spend even more of his money in 2016 trying for yet another bite at the apple.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4703 posts, RR: 2
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):

The number of people going back to work is overshadowed by those dropping out of the work force. If people were overwhelmingly going back to work, we'd actually see a slight increase in the unemployment rate as, the way it's calculated, only counts those individuals actively looking for work.

The number of jobs being created each month isn't even enough to keep up with population growth let alone begin to add net jobs to the economy, thus joblessness continues to increase. The economy needs to be producing 150,000 jobs a month just to break even with population growth and even more to instigate a recovery.

It's hard to create jobs when the CEO's are shipping jobs overseas. Our GDP is the highest it hs ever been. Why aren't there more jobs? And why are the upper 10% gaining over the lower 90% in wage growth?

A lot of the labor participation outside of the folks actively looking is choice. There are many retired folks out there, and many Adults that are looking after their kids while their spouse works in this economy.

Job growth could be quicker, but since congress has lately only passed stop gap tax plans thanks to all of Norquist's little disciples, busines owners can't really make long term plans.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2274 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9466 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
$150,000-$300,000 in student loans? Wait, I thought he didn't need any help paying for college with his family's wealth and all?

A tax-deferred college savings plan is not the same thing as student loans. They are savings as the name suggests, not loans. He does not owe that money to anyone (but he is deferring taxes on it as the name says). It's presumably for when his kids go to college. I assume DLX was referring more to the partnerships made up of assets left by family members, as it was not clear from the article if he was left the savings plans or if he built them himself.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12755 posts, RR: 25
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9451 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
$150,000-$300,000 in student loans?

Why do you equate student loans to:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
college savings plans

???

They are two different things.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

No, but he looks hypocritical when he launches plans to cut such programs.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9450 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
$150,000-$300,000 in student loans? Wait, I thought he didn't need any help paying for college with his family's wealth and all?

You misread. Not loans. Money. Money for his kids to go to college.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

No, but YOU should stop claimig he is a self made man when he actually was propped up by substantial windfalls.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9397 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):

Yes, and so are Obama's academic records, why does he continue to conceal those?

He's not any more than I am. Or anybody else. They're protected under FERPA, same as everybody else's school records. Should he decide to release them, he's free to, but there's no active concealment going on, conspiracy theories to the contrary.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
$150,000-$300,000 in student loans? Wait, I thought he didn't need any help paying for college with his family's wealth and all?

As others have pointed out, student loans and college savings plans are worlds apart and are vastly different critters.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9348 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):

Oh geez, stop drinking the party-line Kool Aid. I suppose the poor Democrats were just oh so accommodating and oh so open to compromise as well, right?

Yes. They were, actually. They had one demand: end the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. They were willing to compromise on just about anything else.

The GOP said no. No compromising. You sign on the line or no deal. Nope, not negotiating.

No, that's not a colored version of events; that's what happened.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):

Here was there latest strategy on negotiating the Bush tax cuts: http://news.yahoo.com/democratic-sen...cuts-expire-170251157--sector.html Just letting taxes go up on everyone if taxes aren't hiked on the rich...how compromising of them Stop acting like the partisanship is one-sided.

Yup. It's called one single demand. The Democrats proposed a bunch of spending cuts. More spending cuts than revenue increases. It was an incredibly weak starting point for negotiations, but they did it. And still, no deal.

Remember, Boehner himself said that the FIRST priority was to make Obama a one-term President. More important than jobs. More important than national defense. More important than healthcare. To me, that's anti-American. I question his loyalty and patriotism. It's plain to me that he cares more about the GOP than he does about the USA.

And part of that plan was deliberately blocking any attempt at policy to improve unemployment or the economy. And then, after not allowing Obama's policies to go into effect, they claimed that his policies are a failure. Sorry, it's not a failure because it was never implemented.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5680 posts, RR: 10
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9291 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
Many people receive survivor's benefits but not all of them rise to become a well-regarded Congressman. So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

Not at all. It should just be noted that the social net worked and helped and did its job. Social nets are not bad things.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
Oh geez, stop drinking the party-line Kool Aid. I suppose the poor Democrats were just oh so accommodating and oh so open to compromise as well, right?

Here was there latest strategy on negotiating the Bush tax cuts: http://news.yahoo.com/democratic-sen...cuts-expire-170251157--sector.html Just letting taxes go up on everyone if taxes aren't hiked on the rich...how compromising of them Stop acting like the partisanship is one-sided.

Didn't the Republican's last year refuse an offer of something like $7 in cuts for $1 in tax increases that was being offered to get discussions started? I am not saying everything is sunshine and roses on the Democrats offer but why can't someone at least discuss with that as a basis?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 81):
Arguing about the tape recorder didn't help Richard Nixon much either.

Didn't help ACORN either...

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 82):
It's hard to create jobs when the CEO's are shipping jobs overseas.

Why are they shipping jobs overseas? Furthermore, what specific Obama policies do you think will reverse that trend?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 84):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

No, but he looks hypocritical when he launches plans to cut such programs.

He doesn't want to cut it, find me one quote where he says he wants to cut social security. What he does want to do is reform it so it at least exists for generations down the road versus the Democrats plan of ignoring the problem and demonizing anyone putting forward a proposal to address the problems.

Quoting D L X (Reply 85):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
$150,000-$300,000 in student loans? Wait, I thought he didn't need any help paying for college with his family's wealth and all?

You misread. Not loans. Money. Money for his kids to go to college.

True enough, I did misread the quote, however the NY Times article did not go into detail on Ryan's family's wealth when growing up, only recent inheritances and trusts bequeathed to his wife.


Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 86):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):

Yes, and so are Obama's academic records, why does he continue to conceal those?

He's not any more than I am. Or anybody else. They're protected under FERPA, same as everybody else's school records. Should he decide to release them, he's free to, but there's no active concealment going on, conspiracy theories to the contrary.

Same principle applies to Romney's tax returns.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
The GOP said no. No compromising. You sign on the line or no deal. Nope, not negotiating.

You're dreaming. Setting aside the fact that at the time even Obama was saying it was not the time to raise taxes (same thing Bill Clinton is saying now), the Republicans offered up plenty of compromises to get the revenue Pelosi and Reid wanted without raising taxes http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/.../06/usa-debt-idUSN1E7650RK20110706
But the Democrats wouldn't have it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):

Here was there latest strategy on negotiating the Bush tax cuts: http://news.yahoo.com/democratic-sen...cuts-expire-170251157--sector.html Just letting taxes go up on everyone if taxes aren't hiked on the rich...how compromising of them Stop acting like the partisanship is one-sided.

Yup. It's called one single demand.

And the Republicans also had "one single demand", what's the difference?

Quoting D L X (Reply 85):
No, but YOU should stop claimig he is a self made man when he actually was propped up by substantial windfalls.

What dross. Paul Ryan, or anybody else for that matter, is who he is because of the personal choices he made in his life..."substantial windfalls" don't create the man, there are and have been in history plenty examples of people of means who have amounted to nothing. Again, money does not create the person and Paul Ryan has every right to be proud of who he is and what he has become because his decisions and choices alone have led him to where he is today.

Quoting tugger (Reply 88):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
Many people receive survivor's benefits but not all of them rise to become a well-regarded Congressman. So because he received death benefits from social security which his father paid into, he loses any claim or right or ownership to his own identity, persona, or accomplishments?

Not at all. It should just be noted that the social net worked and helped and did its job. Social nets are not bad things.

Nor am I saying it's a bad thing, nor is Ryan for that matter...as I said, he's aiming to reform the programs to make them sustainable so they still exist for future generations.

Quoting tugger (Reply 88):
Didn't the Republican's last year refuse an offer of something like $7 in cuts for $1 in tax increases that was being offered to get discussions started? I am not saying everything is sunshine and roses on the Democrats offer but why can't someone at least discuss with that as a basis?

Probably true, but that was my point. This whole narrative that the Republicans are the ONLY ones being stubborn and unwilling to compromise is false, the stonewalling occurs on both sides.

[Edited 2012-09-18 15:07:18]

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9289 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
The GOP said no. No compromising. You sign on the line or no deal. Nope, not negotiating.

Compromise is a false virtue. You don't take half of what you want when you could have all of what you want and nobody ever sat down at a chess match playing for a draw. If you can put your opponents over a barrel, you do it.

Of course, you'll have to answer for any hostages you take, but compromise is a second rate option when you run out of leverage.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 992 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9293 times:

BN747.....PRICELESS....had to wipe to coffee off my monitor....!!


Carpe Pices
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2595 posts, RR: 7
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9252 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 63):
You mean bi-racial guy?

Something tells me that's the first time you've ever referred to our fine President Barack Obama as "bi-racial"....
 


Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth....

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...d-for-carters-it-was-personal?lite

Jimmy Carter's grandson plays role in disseminating video and says "it was personal" in response to Republicans trashing his grandfather.

See, Republicans and Tea Baggers? Payback *is* a bitch after all!            


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5680 posts, RR: 10
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9252 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 90):
Compromise is a false virtue. You don't take half of what you want when you could have all of what you want and nobody ever sat down at a chess match playing for a draw. If you can put your opponents over a barrel, you do it.

Of course, you'll have to answer for any hostages you take, but compromise is a second rate option when you run out of leverage.

You are so frighteningly off base it is disturbing.... OK wait, I see you are "16-20" and a student, you obviously really don't get it. Whew, for a second there I was concerned.

Compromise is the most important thing in human society and if you claim to not compromise on a daily basis you just don't get it. But you will, you will learn. Compromise promotes success for you, it enables success. I compromise with my wife, with my fellow workers and employees, with my investments, with most everything I do. Doesn't mean I am "uncompromising", I am on some things, I have goals and ideals values and I don't compromise on them. But I live in the real world that does not care about catering to just me so I find the best path they enables me to do the best I can for myself, my family, my jobs, etc. now and in the future.

So good luck with those lessons in school, and don't worry the real world will teach you even more important lessons on compromise.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineqantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9247 times:

Another video has surfaced from the same event...turns out the setting was that of Marc Lender who is a private equity big-shot and this time Mitt is serving it up to thealestinians and saying there is no hope for peace with them. Obama just needs to say nothing from here on in.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-1...ut-peace-with-palestinians/4268954

[Edited 2012-09-18 15:40:03]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 727 posts, RR: 14
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9217 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):

his decisions and choices alone have led him to where he is today.
Where you end up is largely determined by where you start.
.
Many Americans feel they've done everything right, made all the right decisions, but they are suffering for things beyond their control. Hence Obama's popularity.
.
Millions made the "right" decisions over the last 10 years and still saw their savings eliminated, lost their homes and lost their jobs - and not a few were ruined with uncovered medical bills. Meanwhile, Bank of America, AIG and Citibank were bailed out with trillions in aid and pointless wars were waged overseas.......
...... Unfortunately, but nderstandably, the role of personal choice has lost its meaning to millions who chose correctly but still lost.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-18 15:59:31]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 90):

Compromise is a false virtue. You don't take half of what you want when you could have all of what you want and nobody ever sat down at a chess match playing for a draw. If you can put your opponents over a barrel, you do it.

Wow, I hope you remember that next time you're handed a contract. See how far that gets ya before the contract gets offered to someone else.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):
And the Republicans also had "one single demand", what's the difference?

No, they had a lot of demands. Increase military spending. Defund Planned Parenthood. Defund other social programs. Etc. Etc. They would not budge on pretty much any of this.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 97, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9208 times:

Distinct Visions: Obama, 1998, Espouses 'Redistribution'

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Philosophy-Contrasts-With-Romney-s

Quote:
In a newly-discovered video, Barack Obama, at a 1998 conference at Loyola University in Chicago, said he believed in "redistribution" to "make sure that everybody's got a shot."

Tell us something we did not know...

And it is a fact that most people who are on the government dole will vote for Obama like Romney said. Nothing to see here...



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1278 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
I guarantee you President Obama has said controversial things at his private fundraisers too.

   However unless someone records and releases a video/audio-tape we can only speculate as to what controversial things he might have said.

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
This is the type of stuff hardcore donors want to hear. He is playing the game of politics

  

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
No. That is what the money was SUPPOSED to be used for, Fisker took the money and then promptly shelved plans to open a manufacturing plant in the US and instead expanded it's current manufacturing in Finland.

Manufacturing in Finland was planned all along. https://lpo.energy.gov/?p=888
Assembly of the Fisker Atlantic was planned for Delaware, however the government loans required to make this happen were conditional on Fisker completing more design-work which didn't happen. Thus any further DOE funding is frozen, until the specified work is complete. The point being that the loan-guarantees came with strings attached. I might add that relying on government for money to develop a substantial part of one's product portfolio is a pretty crazy business plan. To Fisker's credit however, they have secured quite a bit of extra investment funding from private sources.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...factory-after-u-s-blocks-loan.html
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...sker-Raises_392M_Ups_Goal_to_500M/

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
Nice try, but the money lent to the likes of Fisker and Solyndra were not approved under Bush and only fast-tracked and stamped for approval by the Obama administration.

Source please.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11448 posts, RR: 52
Reply 99, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9170 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):
True enough, I did misread the quote, however the NY Times article did not go into detail on Ryan's family's wealth when growing up, only recent inheritances and trusts bequeathed to his wife.


It told us more than enough to understand that Ryan did not get where he is by hitting a home run. No, he was standing on third when others batted him in.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):

Quoting D L X (Reply 85):
No, but YOU should stop claimig he is a self made man when he actually was propped up by substantial windfalls.

What dross. Paul Ryan, or anybody else for that matter, is who he is because of the personal choices he made in his life..."substantial windfalls" don't create the man, there are and have been in history plenty examples of people of means who have amounted to nothing. Again, money does not create the person and Paul Ryan has every right to be proud of who he is and what he has become because his decisions and choices alone have led him to where he is today.

Ahhh. I see what you did there. When backed into a corner where it becomes obvious that your premise that he's a self made man (raised by a poor single mother at that!!!) you simply redefine what "self made man" means. And it appears that your definition conveniently includes everyone!

Here's what it actually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Men

Self-made men […] are the men who owe little or nothing to birth, relationship, friendly surroundings; to wealth inherited or to early approved means of education; who are what they are, without the aid of any of the favoring conditions by which other men usually rise in the world and achieve great results. (pp549-50)

Ryan is not a self made man.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 90):

Compromise is a false virtue. You don't take half of what you want when you could have all of what you want and nobody ever sat down at a chess match playing for a draw. If you can put your opponents over a barrel, you do it.

Wow, I hope you remember that next time you're handed a contract. See how far that gets ya before the contract gets offered to someone else.


Nah, he'll much more likely get worked by the other side. I wonder if he has ever bought a car, or worse, a house.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9164 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 93):
Compromise is the most important thing in human society and if you claim to not compromise on a daily basis you just don't get it.

No I compromise on things all the time. I don't like it, but I do it.

My point is that compromise is not something you want to do, it's something you have to do. And you have to use whatever leverage you have to secure the best possible deal and don't apologize for it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12755 posts, RR: 25
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9154 times:

Some interesting points from one of the many articles on the subject:

Quote:

Romney seems to be referring to the estimated 47 percent of Americans who did not owe federal income taxes in 2011 because their incomes were so low that they qualified for a tax credit, or because they didn't work at all. Last year, 22 percent of people who didn't owe income taxes were elderly people on Social Security, and an additional 17 percent were students, disabled people or the unemployed. More than 60 percent of the group were low-income workers, many of whom qualified for the child tax credit or the earned income tax credit. (These workers did pay payroll taxes for Social Security and other programs.)

It just makes Romney look even worse!

He's saying "I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives" to elderly folks living off of Social Security, students or disabled people, and low-income workers who have qualified for the child tax credit or the earned income tax credit?

At the same time he's paying 13% income tax on the capital gains flowing into his household, and running for the party that supports Bush's tax cuts on the wealthy?

It really shows that he's an elitist jerk who the GOP is now going to have to sink or swim with.

I think this 2012 Presidential Campaign for the GOP is going to have to go down as one of the most flawed campaigns ever. Santorum and his looney act. Loose cannon Gingrich and his failed relationships on public display. Herman Cain dipping his roller in the dough. Crazy, crazy Michele Bachman. Rick Perry stepping on his own dingus. Ron Paul talking the talk yet few in the GOP can be bothered to listen. Jon Huntsman clean cut with great credentials, but totally ignored. Mitt Romney elected mostly because he's less objectionable than the others, but generates absolutely no enthusiasm from the base.

On the good news front, it seems BMI727 has found an ideal role model in Mitt Romney.

[Edited 2012-09-18 16:37:56]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9148 times:

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 94):
Another video has surfaced from the same event...turns out the setting was that of Marc Lender who is a private equity big-shot and this time Mitt is serving it up to thealestinians and saying there is no hope for peace with them. Obama just needs to say nothing from here on in.

Like Romney was ever going to get the Palestinian vote  
Quoting pu (Reply 95):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):

his decisions and choices alone have led him to where he is today.
Where you end up is largely determined by where you start.

They are not largely "determined" by where you start, however where you start can make things more challenging, but it does not largely predetermined where you'll end up, nor does it dictate the type of person you'll become.

Quoting pu (Reply 95):
Millions made the "right" decisions over the last 10 years and still saw their savings eliminated, lost their homes

It's all but clear now that millions did not make the right decisions in purchasing houses they could not afford and taking out questionable mortgages. There are millions and millions more who did however make the right decision and lived within their means and were able to remain in their homes without issue.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 89):
And the Republicans also had "one single demand", what's the difference?

No, they had a lot of demands. Increase military spending. Defund Planned Parenthood. Defund other social programs. Etc. Etc. They would not budge on pretty much any of this.

Those were not non-negotiable and several proposals were offered without any of the items you mentioned, the Democrats still struck it down with their "my way or the highway/raise taxes on the rich or raise taxes on everybody" negotiating strategy.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 98):
Thus any further DOE funding is frozen, until the specified work is complete.

Yet they still received millions from the energy department before additional funding was frozen.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 98):
I might add that relying on government for money to develop a substantial part of one's product portfolio is a pretty crazy business plan.

I absolutely agree, crony capitalism at it's finest.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 98):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 76):
Nice try, but the money lent to the likes of Fisker and Solyndra were not approved under Bush and only fast-tracked and stamped for approval by the Obama administration.

Source please.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/solynd...als/story?id=14513389#.UFkA0o5FAzV

Quote:
Republicans pushed back hard against this version of events, unearthing internal Energy Department emails that indicate the panel evaluating the loans had made the unanimous decision to shelve Solyndra's application two weeks before Obama took office.
Quote:
Emails uncovered by investigators for the House Energy and Commerce Committee showed that the Obama White House closely monitored the Energy Department's deliberations over the $535 million government loan, which was backed by an Obama fundraiser. The internal emails uncovered by investigators showed the administration was keenly monitoring the progress of the loan, even as analysts were voicing serious concerns about the risk involved.


User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2772 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
I guarantee you President Obama has said controversial things at his private fundraisers too.

This..

I don't care for either side (republicans or democrats).... but this is so hilarious to me.


The glass house complexity all of these hardcore supporters and politicians have is laughable.

If politicians were filmed behind closed doors or at such events routinely like this, I believe some of you would be rudely awaken by what your heroes really think/believe..  



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 104, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
Not to mention this pesky little fact - that the largest number of nontaxpayers are found predominantly in red states.

This actually explains quite nicely why it is that the GOP gets so up in arms about nontaxpayers: they see a lot more of them in their states than the Democrats do in their states. Their anger is understandable, but it might be worth first looking at why it's their states that have so many nontaxpayers. Perhaps the economic policies of those states need some adjusting.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Is success such a bad thing these days?

Of course not. Success is great. But in almost all cases, those who have succeeded have done so because they got help from society in one form or another, so there's nothing wrong with expecting them to give back a little bit in times of need.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 80):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Obama failed to bring us out of the hole, so we gotta vote him out.

No, we are climbing out of the hole. In 2010 the Tea Party-backed GOP got into congress and immediately said that their FIRST priority was making Obama a one-term President.


Oh geez, stop drinking the party-line Kool Aid.

That's not party-line Kool Aid. They actually said that. In public.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 105, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9102 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
No I compromise on things all the time. I don't like it, but I do it.

My point is that compromise is not something you want to do, it's something you have to do. And you have to use whatever leverage you have to secure the best possible deal and don't apologize for it.

...and that's why Congress has passed hardly anything the past few years, including many bills the Republicans wanted that had a bit of Democrat in it. Wasn't there a 10 to 1 spending to tax compromise? I don't like seeing tax increases but I'd sure love to see spending cuts!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 106, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9101 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 97):
Tell us something we did not know...

He's so evil- he wants everybody to have a chance of success! Seriously- that's the least contentious statement I've ever heard. You may argue about his methods but wanted everybody to have a shot isn't exactly unreasonable.

It seems to me that one of the worst state of affairs a country can have is a huge wealth gap between the rich and the poor. You see it time and again in developing countries, and it leads to a lower quality of life for everybody. It's no use being rich if you risk getting shot every time you leave your house, catching a hideous disease every time you go near somebody and having your wealth stolen from you by anybody who can get their hands on it. I don't want to live in a country like that.

Wealth redistribution is critical for any country which wants to be civilized; unfortunately much of America has forgotten that, and wrongly assumed that such anarchy could never happen in America; that the US is somehow "above that" for some mystical noble reason. It probably won't slide that far for a long time, but that is because of the progressive tax system, not despite it.

Anyway, as for Romney's comments, I think the "when will the incompetence end" remark sums it up rather well. It's worrying how poorly he is doing at running this campaign if that's going to be indicative of his future performance.

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
What say you?

If it's his genuine opinion that he doesn't give a crap about those 47% of people then he's not fit to be President, no question. However I don't really believe that's what he meant; I think the context of being asked by a donor how he was going to win is critical here. He's just stating where he's going to focus his efforts. If I were a donor I'd want to make damn sure the millions I spent weren't going to be thrown away on a badly-run campaign....erm.....

Nevertheless if I were a Dem strategist I would be hammering this one for all its worth, since Romney is having so much trouble demonstrating he understands the problems of "ordinary Americans". Will it change the election? Probably not by much. But when you add up every gaffe he's made it could do. Romney needs to get his act together.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 107, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9091 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 102):
Like Romney was ever going to get the Palestinian vote

That's not really the point - it's very hard to see someone being the leader of the free world they don't think there can be a peaceful resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and that the best thing to do is to kick the can down the road and hope someone else deals with it.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
Wealth redistribution is critical for any country which wants to be civilized

   Only to a point, of course - if you go to far with it it's counterproductive.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 108, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9088 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 105):
...and that's why Congress has passed hardly anything the past few years, including many bills the Republicans wanted that had a bit of Democrat in it.

There seems to be a false assumption that doing something is better than nothing, and that isn't the case. Lawmakers should do as much to obstruct measures they think are poor or not good enough as they do to push through bills they think are good.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 105):
Wasn't there a 10 to 1 spending to tax compromise? I don't like seeing tax increases but I'd sure love to see spending cuts!

You don't take 10 to 1 if you think you can get 11 to 1.

Quoting Mir (Reply 104):
Success is great. But in almost all cases, those who have succeeded have done so because they got help from society in one form or another, so there's nothing wrong with expecting them to give back a little bit in times of need.

The difference between the blue collar guy and the millionaire isn't the government. And there's nothing wrong with expecting successful people to do whatever they can to make sure as much money as possible remains theirs.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
having your wealth stolen from you by anybody who can get their hands on it.

Or just the government taking it. Paying for police protection is just fine, that's one of the reasons we need a government at all. Welfare as extortion is a poor argument.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
It seems to me that one of the worst state of affairs a country can have is a huge wealth gap between the rich and the poor.

You're looking at the exact wrong solution. What Democrats propose is reverse Jenga: take blocks off the top and put them on the bottom. The tower never gets any bigger, just shuffles pieces around. The real solution is to find more blocks. You have to raise the floor but not cap the ceiling.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):
On the good news front, it seems BMI727 has found an ideal role model in Mitt Romney.

Make millions in private equity and have people complain that I have too much money? Where do I sign up?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 109, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
You don't take 10 to 1 if you think you can get 11 to 1.

Depends. If you can get 10 to 1, and trying for 11 to 1 might get you 11 to 1 or might get you nothing at all because you piss off the other party and they walk away from the table, you should probably go for 10 to 1.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
The difference between the blue collar guy and the millionaire isn't the government.

Not so. If you've got a good public school system in a certain area, that area is going to turn out more successful people than an area with crap schools. If you've got a government that invests in infrastructure that supports businesses and helps them grow, the people who run those businesses are going to be more successful than those who run businesses elsewhere.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
And there's nothing wrong with expecting successful people to do whatever they can to make sure as much money as possible remains theirs.

Legally, sure. Morally, that's a different matter.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20007 posts, RR: 59
Reply 110, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9072 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
There seems to be a false assumption that doing something is better than nothing, and that isn't the case. Lawmakers should do as much to obstruct measures they think are poor or not good enough as they do to push through bills they think are good.

That would be a credible objection. Except most of the bills that were introduced were originally Republican ideas, INCLUDING "Obamacare," which was based on Romneycare.

The Democrats have been doing this on purpose to expose the GOP as anti-American obstructionists rather than national leaders who actually care about their country, and the evidence is pretty damning.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
The difference between the blue collar guy and the millionaire isn't the government. And there's nothing wrong with expecting successful people to do whatever they can to make sure as much money as possible remains theirs.

Including taking money from others to swell their own bank accounts? Ensuring that the people who worked for them to make them so wealthy get as little of that money as possible? Yeah, not the way I want a civilization to work. You want that? Go to Dubai.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 111, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9050 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 109):
Depends. If you can get 10 to 1, and trying for 11 to 1 might get you 11 to 1 or might get you nothing at all because you piss off the other party and they walk away from the table, you should probably go for 10 to 1.

That's just part of the calculus that goes into these decisions. Of course if the other party does walk you turn around and tell everyone that they aren't interested in fixing anything.

Quoting Mir (Reply 109):
If you've got a good public school system in a certain area, that area is going to turn out more successful people than an area with crap schools.

There is far, far more to it than that. And if you read what I've written, I'm in favor of better funding for education. At least that is productive.

Quoting Mir (Reply 109):
Legally, sure. Morally, that's a different matter.

A different matter, one that actually doesn't matter.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
That would be a credible objection. Except most of the bills that were introduced were originally Republican ideas, INCLUDING "Obamacare," which was based on Romneycare.

Just one of the reasons I'm not wild about Romney.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 112, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9025 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 99):
Ahhh. I see what you did there. When backed into a corner where it becomes obvious that your premise that he's a self made man (raised by a poor single mother at that!!!) you simply redefine what "self made man" means.

I don't remember defining what a self-made man was from the outset, so how could I redefine it?

Quoting D L X (Reply 99):
Here's what it actually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Men

Self-made men […] are the men who owe little or nothing to birth, relationship, friendly surroundings; to wealth inherited or to early approved means of education; who are what they are, without the aid of any of the favoring conditions by which other men usually rise in the world and achieve great results. (pp549-50)

No, that is Frederick Douglass' definition of the self-made man, and not one that I would readily agree with. To me a self-made man is someone who rises to their station in life based on their own merits and ability directed by their personal decisions, convictions, and values. This is not to say that I'm arguing that Obama ISN'T a self-made man either, I believe he is.

Quoting Mir (Reply 104):
Of course not. Success is great. But in almost all cases, those who have succeeded have done so because they got help from society in one form or another, so there's nothing wrong with expecting them to give back a little bit in times of need.

And they do give back. Do you think they make/maintain their wealth in a vacuum?

Quoting Mir (Reply 104):
That's not party-line Kool Aid. They actually said that. In public.

My comment was concerning partisanship between the two political parties.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
He's so evil- he wants everybody to have a chance of success!

We all know he wants equality, but how does he want to achieve that? Through equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
It seems to me that one of the worst state of affairs a country can have is a huge wealth gap between the rich and the poor.

The income gap argument has long been a red herring, who cares what the monetary gap is between the upper class so long as the wealth trajectory is upwards for all classes and the cost of living is low? Who cares if you make $70,000 and the person the neighborhood over makes $500,000? Income equality is unattainable and the nations with some of the worst income equality are communist countries (i.e. China).

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 106):
Wealth redistribution is critical for any country which wants to be civilized; unfortunately much of America has forgotten that, and wrongly assumed that such anarchy could never happen in America;

America has never subscribed to the philosophy of wealth redistribution, that's what has greatly separated us from the rest of the world and propelled us to be the #1 economic power in the world as we generally encourage the individual to pursue their own interests/happiness...Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness were not just meaningless words.

Quoting Mir (Reply 107):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 102):
Like Romney was ever going to get the Palestinian vote

That's not really the point - it's very hard to see someone being the leader of the free world they don't think there can be a peaceful resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict

It's a conflict that's been raging for thousands of years, most Americans rarely pay mind or place that much weight in their decisions on the conflict.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 14
Reply 113, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):
On the good news front, it seems BMI727 has found an ideal role model in Mitt Romney.

I disagree because I honestly don't think that he believes half of what he says (he being Romney). I think he's doing whatever it takes to get elected. Back in 04, people were all over Kerry for being a flip-flopper--Romney's not a flip-flopper, he's a world-class contortionist who has somehow been both pro and anti everything that might get him votes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
You don't take 10 to 1 if you think you can get 11 to 1.

Who taught you negotiations or the prisoner's dilemma? Bc you need to brush up on both.
And the problem with your cutthroat negotiating strategy is that it assumes a one-time only negotiation--that both parties won't later need to negotiate and won't bring memories from their past negotiation to the table.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 114, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8982 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 113):
And the problem with your cutthroat negotiating strategy is that it assumes a one-time only negotiation--that both parties won't later need to negotiate and won't bring memories from their past negotiation to the table.

And all of that has to be figured into the decision making. I'm not talking about the tax deal specifically, just making the point that compromise is not an ideal but a necessity.

The ultimate goal is to get to a position of power where there is no negotiation but rather simply stating how things are going to be.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6309 posts, RR: 33
Reply 115, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8975 times:

Has anyone pointed out that Romney just verbalized his disdain for the populace while Obama keeps his hidden?


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 116, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
You're looking at the exact wrong solution. What Democrats propose is reverse Jenga: take blocks off the top and put them on the bottom. The tower never gets any bigger, just shuffles pieces around. The real solution is to find more blocks. You have to raise the floor but not cap the ceiling.

Well obviously it would be great if everybody were rich. However there are finite resources available, and wealth doesn't come from nowhere. At some point beyond a few minor increases in efficiency it can only be made from taking it from elsewhere.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 112):
We all know he wants equality, but how does he want to achieve that? Through equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

Equality of opportunity, as he clearly states in the article quoted above. Again, I can understand you disagreeing with his methods, but that article implies that "everybody having a fair shot" is a bad thing, which I think most people would disagree with. If you believe he believes in the latter, why?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 112):
The income gap argument has long been a red herring, who cares what the monetary gap is between the upper class so long as the wealth trajectory is upwards for all classes and the cost of living is low? Who cares if you make $70,000 and the person the neighborhood over makes $500,000?

See above. "Wealth" is not some infinite commodity we can generate out of thin air. A better example (and a more realistic one) is "who cares if you make $15,000 and the person the neighborhood over makes $500,000. Answer- I do, because I can't afford a roof over my head or food to eat. Your argument assumes that everybody in the US is well off enough to lead a comfortable life, which is demonstrably not true.

Quote:
Income equality is unattainable and the nations with some of the worst income equality are communist countries (i.e. China).

I'm not advocating income equality, just a system with a realistic tax curve and one in which "everybody has a fair shot" as above. Additionally, I am, by most standards, pretty rich. I don't want to be fearful of a poor person robbing me when I leave my house; I'd prefer to be taxed a little in exchange for fewer people living under the poverty line. It increases my quality of life, and if once or twice a year I have to forgo a bottle of '83 Margaux and slum it with a Cali Cab instead, I can cope.... 

Note that China is not a communist country; it's a socialist capitalist country. You can own property, have a bank account, own a business etc. I know to many people "socialism" and "communism" are the same thing, but they are utterly different concepts. A better example of a communist country would be North Korea or Cuba, both of which have very low income gaps (largely because communism is a totally stupid idea, but that's another topic).

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 112):
America has never subscribed to the philosophy of wealth redistribution, that's what has greatly separated us from the rest of the world and propelled us to be the #1 economic power in the world as we generally encourage the individual to pursue their own interests/happiness...Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness were not just meaningless words.

That doesn't make any sense. America has always redistributed wealth; that's what taxes do.

And those are just words I'm afraid. They sound good, but they don't really mean much. Sacrilege!



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 117, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8968 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
That's just part of the calculus that goes into these decisions. Of course if the other party does walk you turn around and tell everyone that they aren't interested in fixing anything.

And then they turn around and tell everyone that they've compromised their own position for you plenty, and it's really you who's being obstinate.

Your strategy works when the stakes are relatively low. When the stakes are high, you have to be willing to take less to insure that you get something. When it comes to stuff like the national budget, or treaties/agreements with foreign countries, your style of negotiating would be a disaster (in the case of the budget, it has already been as disaster).

Quoting us330 (Reply 113):
And the problem with your cutthroat negotiating strategy is that it assumes a one-time only negotiation--that both parties won't later need to negotiate and won't bring memories from their past negotiation to the table.

   This is one thing that really concerns me about Romney when it comes to foreign policy. Dealing with other countries is not like dealing with other companies. There are very few parties an investment firm HAS to deal with - if one deal doesn't work, you can just move on to another one. But there are countries that you HAVE to deal with as president - you will have to deal with Russia, and you will have to deal with China, and you will have to deal with the EU bloc. And while you may go into those deals with ideas about what you want to get out of them, you can't just dictate terms without consequence. I'm not sure if he gets that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 118, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
At some point beyond a few minor increases in efficiency it can only be made from taking it from elsewhere.

Or the country could lower taxes and regulatory barriers to create an environment that is growth friendly. If you continue policies that push business offshore, then yes, you will have a hard time finding more wealth. Especially when those with it are going to make sure elsewhere is someplace you can't get to it.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
Your argument assumes that everybody in the US is well off enough to lead a comfortable life, which is demonstrably not true.

The inability of one person to lead a comfortable life is not the problem of anyone else unless they choose to make it so. That's the entitlement that will be the downfall of the country: that everyone is entitled to a comfortable life no matter what.

Quoting Mir (Reply 117):
When the stakes are high, you have to be willing to take less to insure that you get something.

Yes, that's part of compromise being the necessity rather than the desire. The trick is how much leverage you have and how much less you must be willing to take.

Quoting Mir (Reply 117):
(in the case of the budget, it has already been as disaster).

Because you look like a bad guy when you shoot a hostage. The Republicans pushed it too far and paid the price.

[Edited 2012-09-18 19:00:25]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 119, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8944 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
I was born to a successful family, but they were the result of a very poor working class family. They had to build themselves up in order to make sure I grow properly. Is that such a problem? So be it with Romney. Sure he wasn't born from dirt but his family was, and they made themselves. They therefore raised Romney to provide for himself.

Is success such a bad thing these days?


Honestly these days it seems as though you have to have been poor when you were growing up or you can't be a good politician it is the new "in" thing to do. It is nuts.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 81):
Arguing about the tape recorder didn't help Richard Nixon much either.


All I am saying is under Florida Law where this took place what the guy did was against the law. Simple as that, the guy broke the law.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 81):
Baloney! Re-read the thread starter:


Oh please.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 84):
No, but he looks hypocritical when he launches plans to cut such programs.


All I have to say about that is if something is not done now, not in a few years, not later, but now I wont have Social Security of Medicare when my time comes for the programs. Things need to be fixed.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 103):
This..

I don't care for either side (republicans or democrats).... but this is so hilarious to me.


The glass house complexity all of these hardcore supporters and politicians have is laughable.

If politicians were filmed behind closed doors or at such events routinely like this, I believe some of you would be rudely awaken by what your heroes really think/believe..
Quoting zkojq (Reply 98):
However unless someone records and releases a video/audio-tape we can only speculate as to what controversial things he might have said.


   At least we have two members here who understand the game of politics and big money donors.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 120, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8938 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
There seems to be a false assumption that doing something is better than nothing, and that isn't the case. Lawmakers should do as much to obstruct measures they think are poor or not good enough as they do to push through bills they think are good.

Well I agree but I think they could have hammered something out in the last few years. Some things you need to take an absolute stand but there is time for compromise. Especially if one party controls the House, the other the Senate... that's why hardly anything is coming out.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108):
You don't take 10 to 1 if you think you can get 11 to 1.

That can be bad strategy too, especially if the alternative of 11 to 1 is 0. I've been seeing an awful lot of zeros

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 115):
Has anyone pointed out that Romney just verbalized his disdain for the populace while Obama keeps his hidden?

I never understood his "disdain." He never says or does anything that shows contempt, he simply has a different political philosophy. Either he's a crazy Marxist hellbent on destroying America and redistributing everyone's wealth and is super good at hiding his evil... or his policies tax the upper %s more and is a bit more on the liberal side... which choice sounds logical and not one that should come with a tin foil hat?

And I ain't even liberal!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 121, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
Or the country could lower taxes and regulatory barriers to create an environment that is growth friendly. If you continue policies that push business offshore, then yes, you will have a hard time finding more wealth. Especially when those with it are going to make sure elsewhere is someplace you can't get to it.

The problem is that as we have seen, that doesn't always work.

I do agree with you that there are too many stupid regulations stifling business in this country right now, but there's also a lot of necessary regulation. Regulation is bad for business, but total lack of regulation leads to disastrous consequences. The secret is to balance the wire between uncontrolled growth and no growth at all, and try and achieve sustainable growth. Neither the Dems or the Repubs understand that right now IMO.

Even then though, there is a limit to how much the economy can grow in actual terms. Growth is not infinite.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
The inability of one person to lead a comfortable life is not the problem of anyone else unless they choose to make it so. That's the entitlement that will be the downfall of the country: that everyone is entitled to a comfortable life no matter what.

I'm not blaming the rich for the poor being poor. I'm merely suggesting that it is in the interest of the rich to make sure the poor achieve a certain standard of living, even if it's at the expense of a couple of percentage points of their wealth.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8914 times:

Actually a vast majority of those 47% of people that Mitt Romney doesnt care about live in Red states..and thats the worse part..these people have been voting against their own interests for a long time. The funniest thing on the tape was when he said the economy will magically become better if he is elected...

User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
[checkmark} I was born to a successful family, but they were the result of a very poor working class family. They had to build themselves up in order to make sure I grow properly. Is that such a problem? So be it with Romney. Sure he wasn't born from dirt but his family was, and they made themselves. They therefore raised Romney to provide for himself.

Is success such a bad thing these days?

no success isnt a bad thing at all, but when you are a condescending jerk like Romney is, it is. And furthermore, i have noticed that MANY rich people sadly act this way  .


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 124, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8900 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
The ultimate goal is to get to a position of power where there is no negotiation but rather simply stating how things are going to be.

In other words, a dictator. That may work in business, but in government there are checks and balances to ensure that you can't get to that position of power. So that strategy wouldn't even work, and the very idea of it needs to be thrown out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 125, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8904 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
That's the entitlement that will be the downfall of the country: that everyone is entitled to a comfortable life no matter what.

We have been told for decades, long before Reagan, that if we work hard and save, we will have a comfortable life. Then, the Reagan era of greed came along and we were told if we give everything to the top 1%, we will have a comfortable life. So, now, we are all working for peanuts and mad because we were duped and it is our fault because we are not working hard enough. We are just working two or three jobs just to survive. Nevermind being comfortable. That is so out of reach for many Americans. We are just trying to survive. The right does not get that. The right is so out of touch they can not understand that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
his policies tax the upper %s more and is a bit more on the liberal side

Those tax increases will affect only about 10,000 Americans. Out of how many million who are here?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 126, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8904 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
Well obviously it would be great if everybody were rich. However there are finite resources available, and wealth doesn't come from nowhere. At some point beyond a few minor increases in efficiency it can only be made from taking it from elsewhere.

That is an absolutely false, incorrect, outdated, medieval view of economics...that was the view of economics in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries when mercantilism was king and all the nations of the world believed there was only a finite amount of wealth in the world. That it was therefore in their national interests to spread out, establish colonies, and take as much of the pie before it was all gone.

In the modern day, we now know this zero-sum view to be incorrect. That nations benefit by engaging in trade, producing services, creating man-made products using artificial materials, intellectual/intangible property and products. Wealth in the world is created, it is not "taken from others". That is precisely the viewpoint that Leftists want people to believe however, that wealth is finite and that the wealth created by men has actually been taken from others and that it is the governments place to take it back and redistribute it...a backbone of Marxist ideology.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 112):
We all know he wants equality, but how does he want to achieve that? Through equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

Equality of opportunity, as he clearly states in the article quoted above. Again, I can understand you disagreeing with his methods

And that is precisely my disagreement with Obama. I don't believe that the type of equality he espouses can be attained without using means to equalize outcome, and I think his policies are reflective of it.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
See above. "Wealth" is not some infinite commodity we can generate out of thin air.

Again, that is an invalid, incorrect economic view. Wealth is not generated out of thin air, but it is also not finite, it is created by the value that we put on goods and services which can be created in an infinite number of combinations...and it grows exponentially practically every year with advances in technology and artificial material...etc.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
Your argument assumes that everybody in the US is well off enough to lead a comfortable life, which is demonstrably not true.

It never has been true AND it never will be true. Setting aside the fact that no one is entitled to a comfortable life, there were people championing perceived "income inequality" and "wealth gaps" even at the height of our prosperity when poverty and unemployment were at their lowest.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
I'd prefer to be taxed a little in exchange for fewer people living under the poverty line. It increases my quality of life, and if once or twice a year I have to forgo a bottle of '83 Margaux and slum it with a Cali Cab instead, I can cope.... 

That's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it, however you don't have any authority on which you can demand others to do the same.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
That doesn't make any sense. America has always redistributed wealth; that's what taxes do.

It has not, for most of US history, taxes were collected purely to fund the functions of running the government as well as the military. The tax burden was small to non-existent for almost all Americans and was not used to redistribute wealth to others.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
And those are just words I'm afraid. They sound good, but they don't really mean much. Sacrilege!

Really? So you think it's just a coincidence that the first nation in the world to recognize the inherent liberty of the individual and encourage said individual to pursue their own self-interests developed into the greatest economic power the world has ever seen...and in a little over 150 years at that?


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 127, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
That can be bad strategy too, especially if the alternative of 11 to 1 is 0. I've been seeing an awful lot of zeros

Any bluff carries the risk that someone will call it. Such is brinksmanship, but again, compromise means getting less than what you are looking for and I wouldn't fault anyone for trying to use whatever means they have to get the entirety of their desires.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
In other words, a dictator. That may work in business, but in government there are checks and balances to ensure that you can't get to that position of power. So that strategy wouldn't even work, and the very idea of it needs to be thrown out.

Not one person, just one party. And if they don't do anything unconstitutional, there isn't much the courts can do either.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
We have been told for decades, long before Reagan, that if we work hard and save, we will have a comfortable life.

And that's still true.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
Then, the Reagan era of greed came along and we were told if we give everything to the top 1%, we will have a comfortable life.

What are you giving to the 1%? Do you pay taxes to them? Are there local nobles that you swear loyalty to? If there are, I think someone is playing a joke on you.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
Those tax increases will affect only about 10,000 Americans. Out of how many million who are here?

So why should the few be made to pay for the many? Other than the fact that they have a convenient piggy bank that can be smashed?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 128, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8887 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
That would be a credible objection. Except most of the bills that were introduced were originally Republican ideas, INCLUDING "Obamacare," which was based on Romneycare.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
Just one of the reasons I'm not wild about Romney.

Why is it that people have such a huge problem distinguishing between FEDERAL and STATE programs? The whole idea of Federalism on which the Constitution is based is that the States can do pretty much what they want, while the Federal Government cannot and should not. I have no problem whatsoever with Romneycare or any form thereof, but I would never want to see it implemented nation-wide.

If Massachusetts decided to become completely communist, I (and any other Constitutionalist or Federalist) would have no problem with it, because the inhabitants can move to another state if they don't like it. But when the Federal government does something, you have no choice - unless you are one of the few with dual citizenship where you have another country to go to.

[Edited 2012-09-18 21:03:54]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 129, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
his policies tax the upper %s more and is a bit more on the liberal side

Those tax increases will affect only about 10,000 Americans. Out of how many million who are here?

I don't know why you always pick apart what I say, I tried to word it as neutrally as possible. The President's policies would affect the upper %s (FACT) and it's on the liberal side (FACT, unless you think that's conservative.) Now did I say it was right or wrong? I was *defending* the president in saying that some people think he's cynical, has contempt for America, is evil, etc just because they don't agree with his policy.

And I don't agree with taxing a certain group more just because there are "millions more of us." Now if the rich are getting unfair tax breaks and if there is corporate welfare, well I think we have a case. You may want to rethink your arguments Seb. There are plenty of logical ones out there. I just don't think the SOLE reason of raising tax for 10,000 is because there are millions more other citizens is a well-thought out, fair argument

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 127):
Any bluff carries the risk that someone will call it. Such is brinksmanship, but again, compromise means getting less than what you are looking for and I wouldn't fault anyone for trying to use whatever means they have to get the entirety of their desires.

Again, I agree, but don't you think the Republican's have bluffed too much and been called just about every single time? I get negotiations and standing your ground, trust me, but the strategy the Republicans have adopted, well, worked--hardly any Democratic bills have been signed. Unfortunately, there have been about as many other bills and our country is in gridlock. I'd rather have 5 decent bills with a lousy one thrown in than a bill a year (exaggeration, but it sure feels like that)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 130, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
That is an absolutely false, incorrect, outdated, medieval view of economics...that was the view of economics in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries when mercantilism was king and all the nations of the world believed there was only a finite amount of wealth in the world. That it was therefore in their national interests to spread out, establish colonies, and take as much of the pie before it was all gone. In the modern day, we now know this zero-sum view to be incorrect. That nations benefit by engaging in trade, producing services, creating man-made products using artificial materials, intellectual/intangible property and products

So you're saying it is possible for everybody to be rich? What exactly is economic growth in this context measuring? Investment returns? Or GDP growth? Economic growth and wealth growth are not always the same thing- in fact they can be polar opposites.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
And that is precisely my disagreement with Obama. I don't believe that the type of equality he espouses can be attained without using means to equalize outcome, and I think his policies are reflective of it.

Do you believe that the article is wrong to criticize him for his intentions though? Should it have focused on his methods instead? I'm genuinely surprised you can disagree with the idea that everybody should have an opportunity to improve their lot in life.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
That's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it, however you don't have any authority on which you can demand others to do the same.

Have I done so? I must have missed that....

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
t never has been true AND it never will be true. Setting aside the fact that no one is entitled to a comfortable life, there were people championing perceived "income inequality" and "wealth gaps" even at the height of our prosperity when poverty and unemployment were at their lowest.

OK, OK, you are using the old ad absurdium on me. I agree that it is not possible for EVERYONE to be comfortable. However if you're suggesting that it would be impossible for income gaps to be any narrower, I refer you to the income gaps of almost every westernized nation for comparison.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
It has not, for most of US history, taxes were collected purely to fund the functions of running the government as well as the military. The tax burden was small to non-existent for almost all Americans and was not used to redistribute wealth to others.

Not for the last 100 years. As I've opined, going back to that system wouldn't be good for anybody.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
Really? So you think it's just a coincidence that the first nation in the world to recognize the inherent liberty of the individual and encourage said individual to pursue their own self-interests developed into the greatest economic power the world has ever seen...and in a little over 150 years at that?

Not a coincidence; more an irrelevance. There are many wonderful things about America which have enabled it to become so successful. I don't think that a soundbite on a document was a huge part of it.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3387 posts, RR: 9
Reply 131, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8879 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):
Loose cannon Gingrich and his failed relationships on public display.

I really think he would be doing better than Romney at the moment. We know his baggage, we know he is an ass but he is a much more intelligent guy who can get in the trenches.

However I do think his physical appearance hurts him, its a shallow thing to say but it is reality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
My point is that compromise is not something you want to do, it's something you have to do. And you have to use whatever leverage you have to secure the best possible deal and don't apologize for it.

It is said the best deal is one where neither side is happy.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
How old are you? If you're over 25 and you aren't well on your way to mega-wealthy, your chances of getting there are effectively zero. Might as well buy lotto tickets.

That isn't really a fair nor true thing to say.

Getting mega-wealthy is hard work and takes a lot of sacrifice but it can happen at any age if you have a good idea that you can execute.

Personally I could care less if I become rich. I don't really like work so I have to find something I love to earn me money because if you do something you love it really isn't work and you can put in those 80 hour weeks with much more ease and that actually increases the chances of making it big.

The happiest people I know out there do that, they work their tails off but the love it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 50):
I guarantee you President Obama has said controversial things at his private fundraisers too.

The religion and guns statement comes to mind which was at a 2008 fundraiser.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 132, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8873 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):
Nice try...

Don't switch data set.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Americans are expecting less from themselves and more from others which is going to become a serious problem. Why plow and plant and fertilize and harvest when you could just shake your neighbor's fruit tree?

Most people are hard working.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
If one man uses a road to become a millionaire owner of a trucking company and another man uses the same road to commute to his minimum wage job, the difference is not in the road.

And you think that fully cover the situation?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
The solution is to stop vilifying those who are doing the outsourcing and look at the underlying factors causing them to do so. That's what needs to change.

You mean the greed and shortsightedness.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Everything the government provides to people also has to come from people. The government is a service that provides things that cannot be done privately. They should not be in the business of redistributing income.

They are not. They are in the business of creating the best possible society.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Of course, when you take money via taxes under the threat of a jail term, that couldn't be called charity. Really more like theft actually. That said, if you do feel so strongly about giving money to those less fortunate, there are plenty of charities ready to take your money, and probably do more good with less bureaucracy than the government would.

By large charities are very inefficient.

Taxes are not theft. They are the cost for living in a society. That you don't like the society we have is fine but if you don't like it, move.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
and people want more social programs than before.

Because they are tired of inefficiencies and poor deliveries of private companies. Better to create efficient government. (Something some are working very hard to make sure can't happen)

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
All people do is sit around and complain about jobs going to India and China versus working to come up with new jobs or becoming competitive

You must socialize with lazy people. The people I know work hard. Many of them multiple jobs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
The ability of one to use the road to make more money than the other does not mean he should pick up the tab for both of them.

Both pay. But why should the guy divining one round trip in a light vehicle pay the same as someone sending multiple heavy vehicles on multiple round trips?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
I really don't care about too much other than trying to be mega-wealthy one day

You have made that pretty clear. Question is if it will be from your own hard work or by exploiting and cheating other people? Next question is who will have to clean up after you declare bankruptcy.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Nope, the wealthy always have the money and ease to move somewhere else. Go ahead, raise taxes as high as you'd like, demonize their successes, in the end they're not going to hurt, they'll just move to Switzerland, Singapore, or Belgium in the case of Bernard Arnault.

How many of the wealthy left at earlier times when taxes were raised? In reality, how many people have not started companies because the tax rate was 39% instead of 35%. Have there ever been a tax rate where companies have not been created or investments done? Simple truth: 10% of something is always more than 100% of nothing.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
Where do think the money came from to build the road in the first place?

From products and services produced. Who produced them? Everyone should be properly compensated.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
Well, they have no business promising anything.

Of course they must make promises. Just as every CEO hired is required to make promises.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
Who is any president to promise anyone a job?

The promise is to create an environment for new jobs. We should judge them how well they achieve it taking outside events in consideration. It is just as we don't don't say a CEO was a failure just because the annual reports shows a negative result.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Who donates more to charity?

Charities are inefficient. They are pet projects with poor co-ordination.

If you want to play golf just go out and play. If you want a big party with your friends have a big party. Don't use a charity to placate your conscience.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
we do not consider the government a charity..

Good, it shouldn't be. Think of it as the company of the nation.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 47):
This 47% number was careless and wild

It was targeted at the people who are blinded by entitlement. Those who happily spend $1,000's on saving $1 as long as it means one person didn't get more than absolutely minimum.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 133, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8854 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 129):
Again, I agree, but don't you think the Republican's have bluffed too much and been called just about every single time?

Refusing the raise the debt ceiling (which actually did nothing for spending) and causing the Dow Jones to drop something like 5% in a day wasn't a smart move.

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
And you think that fully cover the situation?

I don't buy into the "if you are wealthy it's because the government helped you" line of thought. The government helps everyone more or less equally. Even from the best schools in the country there aren't many people that become very successful. The success is individual and the rewards should be individual.

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
You mean the greed and shortsightedness.

First, it's a business. It's their job to be greedy. Secondly, what's shortsighted about outsourcing, especially if taxes and regulation in the US is only going to increase?

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
They are in the business of creating the best possible society.

And that is not the purpose of the government. A great society comes from great people, and greatness as a people comes from greatness as a person. Government plays only a supporting role in that. It provides for defense, law enforcement, education, infrastructure, and some other things. All of those are services, and by extension, government should be a service. And like all services, it has a cost, which is covered by taxes. And that's just another bill, like a phone bill or a gas bill: you pay for what you get.

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
By large charities are very inefficient.

Compared to the government? And of course the beauty of charities is that if you dislike how it's run, you can take your money elsewhere.

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
But why should the guy divining one round trip in a light vehicle pay the same as someone sending multiple heavy vehicles on multiple round trips?

He doesn't. My point is that the government services are there for everyone, and the difference isn't in the road, it's in the person.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 134, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8845 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 127):
Any bluff carries the risk that someone will call it. Such is brinksmanship, but again,compromise means getting less than what you are looking for and I wouldn't fault anyone for trying to use whatever means they have to get the entirety of their desires.

There are some places where brinksmanship is stupid because the consequences of failure are so great that they outstrip any benefits that you could get by getting a little bit more. And in those situations (such as the national budget), those who engage in it should definitely be faulted for being idiots.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 135, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
So you're saying it is possible for everybody to be rich?

In theory yes, but individuals are not all the same, they have different aspirations, desires and motivations. Not everyone wants to be rich or start their own company, and some do. GDP is the measure of this wealth, the value of goods and services produced in a country.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
Do you believe that the article is wrong to criticize him for his intentions though?

To attack his intentions in the context of an ad hominem insult is wrong, but his intentions alone don't make him immune from criticism. I think there is plenty of substance behind his intentions that are worthy of criticism.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
However if you're suggesting that it would be impossible for income gaps to be any narrower, I refer you to the income gaps of almost every westernized nation for comparison.

Really? Because nations like France, Germany, and the UK have their own "pundits" criticizing their income gaps, it just illustrates that there is no point at which the argument is satisfied, it's never going to be good enough for some unless there is complete and total income equality. I'm not trying to imply that this is what you want, so don't take it that way, but like I said earlier, it's a red herring.

What should be the concern is the trajectory of wealth for all individuals. If the wealth of all tax brackets is trending upwards, that's a good thing...who cares what the gap is? If the wealth of the upper bracket is going upwards and the lower brackets going downwards, that's definitely not healthy and is indicative of economic problems, but that doesn't mean taking from the upper brackets to give to those in the lower brackets is going to solve the problem.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 126):
It has not, for most of US history, taxes were collected purely to fund the functions of running the government as well as the military. The tax burden was small to non-existent for almost all Americans and was not used to redistribute wealth to others.

Not for the last 100 years. As I've opined, going back to that system wouldn't be good for anybody.

The progressive income tax code as we know it today was not implemented until 1913, and prior the federal tax burden on the majority of the US population was all but non-existent. I'm not advocating unequivocally returning to those days..a dollar in 1913 obviously has a different value than it has today. But I do advocate that we continue to adhere to the philosophy of our founding principles which have always generally been manifested in keeping the tax burden as low as possible, absent of a motivation to redistribute wealth but rather allow an individual to keep most of the fruits of their labor.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
Not a coincidence; more an irrelevance.

How do you figure?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 130):
I don't think that a soundbite on a document was a huge part of it.

It's not a soundbite, it's the foundation for the rights of all citizens of the US as well as our gove