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Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee  
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7846 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

I think this has to chalked up to another only in America story.

Quote:
A Houston police officer shot and killed a one-armed, one-legged man in a wheelchair on Saturday inside a group home after police say the double amputee threatened the officer and aggressively waved a metal object that turned out to be a pen.

Rest of the story here

I can't understand how a pen could be mistaken for a knife and how two fit and able police officers couldn't detain a person in the victims physical condition.

92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

A man with a knife in close quarters is more dangerous than a man with a gun. In this case though, it should be easy to overcome with a good front kick to the face of a guy sitting down.

I agree that the way these cops like to buy all the toys and puff up on steroids, they should have better ways of dealing with this than lethal force.

Here is a much better report. http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/us/texas-amputee-shooting/index.html

I happen to have a neighbor like this. His father dumps him off in a remote cabin because he can't get along in society. He can get extremely belligerent, I nearly pulled on him once myself. He is scary enough that I cannot house my family there. The police should be trained to handle this though.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2483 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Sounds like a trigger happy cop...

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

How's about we keep the anti-American sentiment off this story, yeah? I could go right now and grab half a dozen similar incidents that have happened in Europe.


Yes, it is easy to mistake a pen for a knife when someone is waving their "hand" wildly about in a thrusting motion. That being said, this sounds all wrong. The police statement said the suspect wouldn't show his "hands" (he only had one hand!), and cornered the non-shooting officer while advancing on him (which just makes zero sense). However:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Sounds like a trigger happy cop...

Sounds like a cop who never actually recovered mentally from his incident in 2009 where he shot a knife-wielding man who had just stabbed someone to death. He likely saw the thrusting motions and instinctively fired, even though the other officer was likely in little danger.


Sounds like a sad tale all around.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinedragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
A man with a knife in close quarters is more dangerous than a man with a gun.

They could of used pepper spray or a taser. You don't have to be to close to a suspect to use that stuff.



Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

I just don't understand why he shot to kill. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
I just don't understand why he shot to kill. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.

That's not what you do with a gun. When you shoot, you shoot center mass. Agree of disagree, that's the SOP for all the police departments I've seen. I've NEVER heard of any department training their officers to "shoot the arm."

When you draw your weapon and fire, it's to the point where you intend to kill or incapacitate the suspect. That's what the gun is for.

Now I am sure he could have backed up or something faster than drawing and shooting, but I'll leave the Monday-morning quarterbacking to the department. It appears the police officer is in fault, but the devil is in the details

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 5):
They could of used pepper spray or a taser. You don't have to be to close to a suspect to use that stuff.

In theory (and I am not assuming the suspect is in a wheelchair) if you are in close quarters with a suspect that is trying to knife you, you are not only justified, but probably encouraged to use a gun. A knife will kill and is a threat to an officer. I think the range is something like within 21 feet a guy can charge you with a knife before an average officer can draw and fire. Now with back up and time to plan, I'm sure the police would not go in guns blazing.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

That's a pretty ignorant generalization   And I assume you know this officer is totally guilty because you were at his trial and were on the jury that gave a guilty sentence? Not saying he's innocent, but you weren't there.

Innocent until proven guilty... and stereotypes = bad



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3924 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
When you draw your weapon and fire, it's to the point where you intend to kill or incapacitate the suspect. That's what the gun is for.

I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.

Not saying you are naive, but it just doesn't work this way outside of Hollywood. Pistol marksmanship is challenging enough...but in the heat of the moment - fear/adrenaline, time pressure, moving target etc. you aim center of mass and hope to hit the target (and nobody else).


User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 9):
Not saying you are naive, but it just doesn't work this way outside of Hollywood. Pistol marksmanship is challenging enough...but in the heat of the moment - fear/adrenaline, time pressure, moving target etc. you aim center of mass and hope to hit the target (and nobody else).

Yeah i guess so. Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable. I just think it would be a better way of doing things.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

Why couldn't they use the taser? Isn't it SOP to use taser first, if that doesn't work then use lethal force if necessary? WTH?!

Yeah, the cop was trigger happy, it seems. I think he should be removed from the force if he cannot handle his job. After reading the article, he killed one person so far, now he killed this guy. Yeah, he's gotta go.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5659 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

So, based on one incident or it could be ten or even twenty across a nation where there are over 800,000 (give or take) sworn law enforcement officers, protecting over 314,000,000 people, you declare that US police forces are unprofessional?

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you?

Police officers are trained to shoot center-mass because that is the biggest target. In a stress situation, a person tends to loss fine motor skills, thus greatly affecting aim. A lot of that degradation can be mitigated by intense training, but your normal, local police officer is very unlikely to have that level of training. We're talking Special Forces type training. To assume an officer in a stress encounter can aim for any specific part of the body is unrealistic and dangerous.

To illustrate: 2 NYPD officers recently shot 9 bystanders while engaging a shooter. Do you think they would have had any luck "aiming to disarm." Why would you think a police officer in Houston is any better trained then a pair in NYC?

Just a reminder, what you see on television shows or in the movie theatre is not real.

Oh, and by the way, no one on this board was there. The police officer may be in the wrong. He may have been right. I will always give those guys the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is concluded.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.

If you are not trying to kill then you don't use a gun. Simple. Guns are for killing / incapacitating but pepperspray, tasers, batons, and even the officers' fists are used for less than lethal measures. Guns aren't at all for disabling body parts... pistols seem very self-explanatory but you'd be surprised at how extremely difficult it is to shoot them. The first time I shot a pistol I couldn't hit a target a few feet in front of me. Trained cops obviously have more training but it is NOTHING like the BS you see in the movies. Shoot a pistol and see for yourself.

Then if you have police departments setting SOPs for shooting arms, what happens when an officer accidentally shoots someone in the face? It will be a legal disaster.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then?

You don't want your duty weapon not loaded with real bullets in case you'd need it. Not talking about the wheelchair guy, it's just a police thing in general. It needs to be readily accessible ready for deadly force. Instead of rubber bullets you have pepper spray, tasers, etc.

Now keep in mind, I'm in no way excusing anything. I'm just explaining why the commonly misunderstood use of firearms disabling body parts doesn't work, and the options for less than lethal measures. This is true for the US, but I'm pretty sure it is the same in most western countries. Guns are absolutely for killing/incapacitating... NOT anything else. Other measures like pepper spray and tasers are for threats not involving death or seriously bodily harm. I'm sure if you google it, the only place you'll see an officer (following SOP) shooting someone in the arm or something would be in a movie. Could be wrong, but that's how it is in all the American law enforcement agencies I've heard about. (I'm a Criminal Justice major so I know a lot about it.)

Further more, notice when an officer draws his/her firearm... it's very strict. You have to be in a situation where you think death or serious bodily harm will result. You can't get someone out of a car at gunpoint because they don't like the speeding ticket (unless you can substantiate you think there is a threat I mentioned.)



To summarize and for those that skipped to the bottom of my post: guns are for killing and incapacitating only!!! It is not inhumane because other methods are to be used in less major situations. In fact, using a gun for a situation that only requires a taser or pepper spray will get a cop in trouble. This does not take into account "what ifs..." if the police officer is being reasonable and think he's in grave danger, it doesn't matter if in the end something turns out to be a toy gun



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
After reading the article, he killed one person so far, now he killed this guy.

The article suggests that in the first incident his girlfriend and neighbor actually got stabbed...even if he was in the right the first time it's a fair question whether or not that traumatic event drove his decisionmaking when he thought his partner was in trouble. If I killed two people I think I'd be looking for a new gig anyway.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
So, based on one incident or it could be ten or even twenty across a nation where there are over 800,000 (give or take) sworn law enforcement officers, protecting over 314,000,000 people, you declare that US police forces are unprofessional?

I wish I was still 16-20 like our friend from Finland and knew everything about everything. Amazing how stupid I have become since.

On the other hand it has been about eight minutes since the last declaration of how much the US sucks compared to the rest of the world, so I guess we were due.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.


You are officially the first person I've ever heard admit that! It's a good question, I wonder what the implications would be though...getting sued by the person who gets hurt or killed by the rubber bullet, or getting sued by the people you couldn't protect because the perps weren't stopped by the rubber bullet. Sounds like they'd be set up for a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

At least with a real weapon you know what you are getting once the cat is out of the bag. Which makes proper application of the 'use of force continuum' so important.

(edit: I posted this before I saw DeltaMD90's post...agree 100%)

[Edited 2012-09-23 18:36:24]

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
Isn't it SOP to use taser first, if that doesn't work then use lethal force if necessary?

Simply, no.

The level of force authorized is directly related to the danger presented to the officer and bystanders. An officer is limited in escalation only by the actions of the suspect, and is generally authorized to use whatever level of force the suspect presents themselves, taking into account probable outcomes.

There have been cases where unarmed individuals have been shot, and the shooting being justified because of either the viciousness of the beating or the sheer size difference between an attacking suspect and the officer where the officer was in reasonable fear that he would be overpowered and have his weapon taken away from him. It's happened more than once...

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.

Because like it or not, police MUST have the upper hand in potentially deadly situations. You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK. Also, there are certain drugs out there where the user will literally feel no pain. Remember the guy who ate the homeless guy's face off in Miami? He was shot once, and didn't even flinch. It took 4 more shots to end the attack.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.

That's not how it works. Unlike in the movies, being shot in the arm is not merely a painful "flesh wound". Assuming one could aim good enough to do it, you still run the risk of having the bullet hit an artery, bouncing around, or exiting and reentering somewhere else, possibly into another (innocent) person.

The leg is even worse. Watch Black Hawk Down to see just how nasty that can be.


The third rule of carrying a gun: only point it at something you are willing to destroy. Because that's all it's good for.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.



You are officially the first person I've ever heard admit that!

Never been shot with rubber bullets (bb guns yes) but I've been gassed, pepper sprayed and tased (not breaking the law, in training) and I'll tell you that the taser will get me to do just about anything the officer wanted. I think I'd rather be shot dead than tased again... ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

But again, the rubber bullets are mostly in riots. An officer doesn't want his duty weapon being not ready to fire real bullets, and you have tasers and pepper spray which are just as effective and it doesn't disable to duty weapon from shooting real bullets. Plus, rubber bullets are a lot more dangerous. I think officially tasers and pepper spray is considered "non-lethal" and rubber bullets are "less than lethal" aka more dangerous and can still kill but aren't meant to. But it's been a while since I was in college so I'm kinda fuzzy



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):
If I killed two people I think I'd be looking for a new gig anyway.

Police departments actually ask those kinds of questions in their interviews to prospective recruits. You'd be surprised at how many people think they want to be cops, but balk during the interview when they find out that must be able to kill someone without hesitation, and show back up to work as soon as 3 days later and possibly kill someone else.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK.

But in the UK only specially trained officers can use firearms. There are special squads for them.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 18):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK.

But in the UK only specially trained officers can use firearms. There are special squads for them.

I'd be willing to bet that their rules of engagement are similar to our police. Again, can't speak with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3807 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
I'd be willing to bet that their rules of engagement are similar to our police. Again, can't speak with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure

Maybe so, but normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns. They have to go through years of training and certification to be able to join the firearms response squad. I'm not going to say i know for sure but i'm pretty sure every US officer carries a gun, and most have inadequate training. Hell, you can get a gun license at 18 and pick one up from the local store!


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 20):
Maybe so, but normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns. They have to go through years of training and certification to be able to join the firearms response squad. I'm not going to say i know for sure but i'm pretty sure every US officer carries a gun, and most have inadequate training. Hell, you can get a gun license at 18 and pick one up from the local store!

Oh I gotcha. Well without going way off topic, disarming a large portion of our cops would be disastrous. I was mainly talking about rules of engagement which are probably pretty similar. If we sent US cops to the UK I don't think much would change even if these police were still armed. Theoretically, if you have unarmed suspects in the UK causing trouble, the armed police (assuming they followed the rules) would act like your cops and not use weapons.

Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed. Disarm the US cops or arm the UK cops and I think they'd act very similarly (given similar circumstances.)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 20):
normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns.

Can you elaborate on as to why? This seems like this is only asking for trouble. I cannot imagine how many defensiveness cops in the UK has died in the line of duty because he/she could not have the tools to do his/her job. It's astounds me on this issue.

With that said, I wouldn't want to be a cop in the UK solely on this issue alone. I want to be able to defend myself at moments notice, instead of waiting for the "Gun Squad".   

Just a personal opinion.....not to mock the fine folks in the UK.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):

Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed. Disarm the US cops or arm the UK cops and I think they'd act very similarly (given similar circumstances.)

Agreed. To be fair, if i was a policeman i'd feel much better about going to work if i knew i had a pistol in my pocket! And that isn't a euphemism  


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

While it often seems so, I think the reality is that criminals in the US have a habit of being better armed than their counter-parts in Europe, presenting a greater danger to the police who have to adapt their actions/procedures appropriately. But yes, it often seems like there are plenty of cases where US police officers over react. Examples from the top of my head include the 'don't tase me bro' incident and a few years back when a police officer tasered an 86-yearold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ar-old-bed-ridden-grandmother.html

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
I can't understand how a pen could be mistaken for a knife and how two fit and able police officers couldn't detain a person in the victims physical condition.

It would have to be a pretty big pen or very small knife.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I think the range is something like within 21 feet a guy can charge you with a knife before an average officer can draw and fire.

Surely the officer would already have his weapon drawn in a case like this where they feel threatened?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed.

I think the big difference is not about the cops, but those who they have to deal with. In addition to what I mentioned above about a larger portion of the population being armed, you Americans unfortunately seem to get more than your fair share of nutjob criminals. Thus the need for the police to carry firearms is greater in the US.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Can you elaborate on as to why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...t-trust-armed-police?newsfeed=true
There are other reasons also.



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
25 Post contains links rwessel : "Police deaths in New York and London during the twentieth century" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2586786/ "During the 20th century, 58
26 Mir : If Wikipedia is to be believed, since 2000, 22 police officers have been killed in crime-related situations (i.e. not something like being hit by a c
27 KiwiRob : A pen and a knife look completely different. Except this officer shot him in the head. Now can you imagine a one armed man in a wheel chair waiving a
28 PanHAM : ..and what about the "luck" of the bystanders? Police simply cannot use fire arms in situations where by-standers can get hurt. there are countries w
29 Post contains links AF1624 : Really ?! I'm amazed how this can even create a debate. The Police officer was pretty clearly trigger happy. A one armed, one legged man on a wheelcha
30 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Just a few days ago two unarmed female cops in Manchester, UK, have been lured into an ambush by a fake burglary call and have been killeds by pistol
31 imiakhtar : I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is. As you correctly noted, the UK cops were ambushed. The suspect had the element of surprise to his
32 JJJ : They would have been sitting ducks with a gun, too. It was a carefully prepared ambush.
33 KiwiRob : I know that in the entire history of the NZ police force which is unarmed (baring the Armed Offenders Squads and the Special Tactics Group) only 29 o
34 Aesma : The UK is not Europe. Cops in France are armed, as are gendarmes (military police for the countryside), custom officers, some local police (that are n
35 SmittyOne : Your post does nothing to refute what DeltaMD90 said. We were talking about whether rubber bullets were a reasonable alternative and it seems you use
36 KiwiRob : See that's a difference between policing in NZ and policing in the US, a dog car would probably have responded to an incident like this at the same t
37 Post contains links MD11Engineer : From what I´ve read one of the police women managed to draw her Taser, but bringing a taser to a gunfight won´t give you much chance at survival. T
38 PanHAM : I tried to keep my post as neutral and polite as possible. I rather did not generalize, that's why I opened the post like that, see my quote above. P
39 JJJ : Unlike the whacko, the officed presumably had use of both his arms and legs. A good old punch in the face or two would have settled the issue.
40 MD11Engineer : It depends on the situation. The military regularly practice anti-ambush training (get behind the nearest cover, open suppressive fire into the direc
41 JJJ : Come on, it was your regular neighborhood copper answering to a call from someone who had his house broken into and were going to assess the damage.
42 KiwiRob : Yet even with that training thousands of soldiers have been killed or wounded in Afghanistan in ambushes, so what chance would two female bobby's hav
43 Aesma : Recently two gendarmes were killed here, by a guy with a knife. It was not an ambush, they were called because the guy was noisy and violent. They wer
44 zkojq : As I understand it, here in New Zealand, an investigation is held every-time a firearm is discharged or a Taser is fired. This is beneficial as the p
45 SmittyOne : Maybe so...but I'll wager you $20 that if a K-9 had responded, the headline would read "Police Unleash Attack Dog on Wheelchair Bound Amputee" and we
46 MD11Engineer : As for the current case, it is impossible for a wheelchairbound person with only one arm to carry out a knife attack. He simply cannot move the wheelc
47 SmittyOne : Likewise, it's impossible to stall and crash an Airbus A330 unless you hold the stick back the whole way down...yet a fully qualified Air France pilo
48 fr8mech : I disagree. It depends on the situation. I imagine just about any decent sized police department has an "active shooter" protocol. These protocols de
49 PanHAM : Aha, so there was someone shooting at people and all the people that got hit were hit by police bullets. Understood. good work. Did these stupid peopl
50 PPVRA : That's nothing more than an assumption. Another assumption: if the police carried guns, the perpetrator would never have set this ambush up in the fi
51 baldwin471 : Yes he would've. He is a psychopath. He has murdered before and this would've happened no matter what. If it wasn't these two police officers it woul
52 Post contains links zckls04 : I would imagine he'll get a whole life tariff, so I highly doubt he'll ever get out. Not often, but never is a stretch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
53 pvjin : Yet United States where police do carry guns has probably more shootings than any other country in the world (from countries that aren't having any k
54 MD11Engineer : So why don´t we just get rid of the police, because the criminals will just do what they want anyway? I don´t understand this British idea of fairp
55 KiwiRob : I don't even think it would be worth reporting, and I very much doubt the foreign press would have picked up and run the story. So you're walking int
56 DeltaMD90 : Missed a lot when I was gone... That's what they're trained to do. Obviously if shooting center mass is not an option you'll shoot elsewhere. And cops
57 SmittyOne : Maybe, but I live here and I think it would have run on the evening news, complete with cellphone video of the mauling if there was one. It's just bi
58 PPVRA : Yet another assumption. He killed unarmed people before. Would he killed unarmed people again? Probably. Would he lure in armed (and trained!) people
59 PPVRA : I will be first one to tell you that police brutality is a problem world wide, but to send two UNARMED people after criminal suspects or where crimin
60 SmittyOne : I think it's fallacious to cite one example of poor execution or decisionmaking as justification for an irresponsible policy such as "Police simply c
61 MD11Engineer : From what I´ve heard the grenade came from former Yugoslavia. The guy is also implicated in a gangland murder a few weeks ago, where a similar grena
62 fr8mech : So, you just send your police into harm's way because there is a possibility that they may get ambushed without being able to get off a shot? Yes, so
63 flanker : Absolutely correct. Oh please, take that shit somewhere else. Silly Europeans, Trix are for kids. Absolutely correct.
64 Mir : It is not worse. But it's not necessarily better. If you're ambushed and shot, you're ambushed and shot; you probably have no time to get your gun ou
65 MD11Engineer : One thing I wonder about: If a situation is not absolutely clear, over here one police officer will watch and secure, while the other one will approac
66 DeltaMD90 : You're saying US police don't try and diffuse situations? Many dead US cops would beg to differ, got some youtube videos to prove that to you. You ca
67 DocLightning : Then do so, because I'm not aware of this. It has struck me that American police forces are having a huge problem with professionalism and excessive
68 PPVRA : I think we can safely say that the assumption I made flies just fine, given that a weapon is a deterrent and not a complete crime inhibitor. It doesn
69 Post contains images cmf : And in the case in the OP and other cases like it there may be less people dead. And I have nothing against police being armed. Looking at the situat
70 Post contains links scbriml : Far fewer than you'd expect. The recent shooting of two policewomen has really shocked the country. The police themselves seem determined not to be a
71 JJJ : No. The facts are well known, they were lured, ambushed and killed in cold blood. They could have carried a G36 and still wouldn't have made a differ
72 Post contains images Maverick623 : Every single sworn law enforcement officer in the US is required to carry a department-issued or approved gun while on duty. And since you can't even
73 DeltaMD90 : LOL no I meant they aren't supposed to shoot when they are gonna hit civilians. As far as I'm aware (and I could very well be wrong) there aren't rea
74 greasespot : I can speak of this as i am a cop and i carry a gun. Now this is canada so here is a few call i dealt with were I was first on scene. Call comes in fo
75 Mir : If that were really true, the UK would have more officers being killed than the US. But it doesn't. So more guns does not equal less officers getting
76 baldwin471 : Jeez get over yourself. Looks like someone is getting on their moral high horse because yet another of your police officers has used unnecessary forc
77 MD11Engineer : While I´ve seen British and Irish police being more ready (and capable) in physical confrontations (wrestling mixed with rugby style tackles, occasi
78 Post contains images SmittyOne : I have no argument with the facts you have listed, but it's not logically valid to conclude that whether the officers are armed or not is the reason
79 zckls04 : To be clear though- that's "more guns" among the general population rather than specifically the police. It's not an argument for disarming the polic
80 bueb0g : Because there are hardly any guns in the UK, and getting a license for one is very difficult. The only people who legally have guns in practice are f
81 Post contains links MD11Engineer : And sometimes (and more and more often) they come upon armed, dangerous criminals. B#ll#cks. If my aunt had b@lls, she would be my uncle. The German
82 bueb0g : Jan, Stop applying the situation in Germany to the situation in the UK. It is not the same. In 2009 there were 3x as many homicides by firearm in Germ
83 DeltaMD90 : No, that is not true either. They are totally different situations. It would seem like arming UK officers would result in a lot more shootings by pol
84 cmf : It will take an enormous effort but it can be done. Exempt, there is no will at this time.
85 Mir : In this case it's both, but I was specifically referring to fewer guns among the police. What works for the UK might not work for the US, true. But I
86 DeltaMD90 : Of course there is no will to disarm our cops! Now if we were to get guns out of the hands of criminals then maybe, just maybe, there'd be talk of it
87 Post contains images cmf : Of course the first step would have to be that they are extremely unlikely to face guns. Why it takes an enormous effort. The first being to change t
88 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Alright alright calm down lol. I thought you were implying that our armed police somehow caused more violence... I'm sorry! Though even if guns did m
89 Maverick623 : Huh? You said that "you weren't sure" but "you thought" that "most" cops in the US carried guns. But you're somehow absolutely certain that most cops
90 Post contains images KaiGywer : As is the case here. In my department, even unholstering the gun requires a use of force report to be filled out. As it is here.....
91 mham001 : No, it does not. Not even close. Except this man was armed. A pen can indeed be a deadly weapon, just as my fists and feet. I don't think we have hea
92 pvjin : Well yeah actually it seems that there are a lot of countries with drug trade and of course developing countries before USA, but still USA has more s
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