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Should Romney Be Elected?  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

We have a thread asking if Obama should be re-elected, but not one focused on Romney. So let's get one started.

I'll start off with a bit "No!"

Reasons?

To me the guy is a plastic politician, working hard to deflect anything that might show where he is heading. Closing Loopholes? Won't say which ones, but my bet is that the middle class gets the hit.

Obviously the Income Tax Returns is a major issue, especially for a guy who stashes money overseas. Swill Bank Accounts? Doesn't fly with me if you want to be President.

Actually, there are too many reasons to list and you's need that Etch-A-Sketch to keep track of his changes in position.

So, nope. Romney is the little man on the wedding cake - without the mustache.

159 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Most points covered above - he's way out of touch. I think we'll see him being shown up in the October debates. After he loses in November he'll go back to one of his enormous mansions and be forgotten about pretty quickly.

What I don't understand is that how he can say that because he's a business man he'll be a good president. Sure, he may know how to keep the financials in check, but what about all the other things that a president needs to know about?



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
he may know how to keep the financials in check

And if he would offer real DETAILS and make this financials his agenda items 1-10, I think he could have Reagan style popularity.
.
...but instead he is a new style Republican who harps on God, Gays and Guns ten times a day. Obama has it won unless he makes a major misstep sometime soon.

Pu


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2723 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

We elected Clinton, Bush and Obama so why not Romney?


OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4214 times:

I think indeed both what the incumbent has done and proposes, and what the contender offers, are important to consider. For example the Spaniards didn't like austerity imposed by the Socialists, so they elected the other guy without caring about his platform, which of course was twice more austerity (and undoing some social reforms that the people actually liked).

In France most of what Sarkozy did was rejected, and in fact he had to undo some of it himself (for example tax cuts for the rich at the beginning of his mandate were scrapped at the end), but in the end he stuck to his previous campaign of seduction towards the extreme right, except half of those he seduced last time thought he fooled them and just didn't vote this time, while half the center right was frightened and voted Socialist.

Even if I try to follow the US elections, I'm not seeing it from there or with a US citizen view, to me Obama is center right and if pitted against Romney here the election would give Obama 75% of the vote easily, in fact our right loves him !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

I could care less how rich or pompous he is. He's a rich guy, so are most of our other presidents. I won't go into who was born into wealth, who was self-made, who got help from his daddy, etc because I don't care.

He could be a big douchebag for all I care... if he had realistic, good plans (with well defined details) I'd probably vote for him. Also, willingness to go to war with Iran is a big one for me (please don't.) But for me, the economy is first and foremost in this election. I believe he has a good understanding of it, I'm just not sure if he'd fix it the way it needs to me (I'm not calling for a stereotypical all out liberal nanny state, but I think we need something left of the GOP, something in the center.) Not sure if Romney or Ryan are the men to do it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):

willingness to go to war with Iran is a big one for me (please don't

The average person in the states is is their 30s. For a lot of people, a vote for Republicans means voting for war in the Middle East, that is their memory and still more or less Republican policy, its been the Bush family obsession.
.
If Romeny could guarantee there will be no war with Iran or anyone else (unless attacked), he would pick up many of the swing voters who have simply made not wanting more war their key issue.

Pu


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Also to consider is the shared power in the US, so what does it mean to have Obama/GOP house/50/50 senate or other combinations. Romney could be "moderate" himself but have to sign on crazy stuff from his party.

[Edited 2012-09-23 17:05:33]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Romney could be "moderate" himself but have to sign on crazy stuff from his party.

Not really, he could easily veto something. Hell would be raised, but just because there is only 1 GOP president and hundreds of GOP Congressmen/women doesn't mean he has to "go along" with everything they push through

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
For a lot of people, a vote for Republicans means voting for war in the Middle East, that is their memory and still more or less Republican policy, its been the Bush family obsession.

Most people I've talked to are focusing on the economy. They absolutely think that the President has caused/prolonged/__insert here____ the economic crisis and that almost anyone can do better. Contrary to popular belief, they would not elect a monkey over the President Obama (unless of course they thought the monkey would do a better job.)

People like to over think this election and why people are voting for Romney. Many on the other side come up with crazy things. I am around a lot of Romney supporters and they are simple people like you and me (even foreigners...) they want a good economy. They just don't agree on which candidate will do a better job. Nothing radical or anything



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Obama has been largely a failure: massive deficits which will impoverish future generations and no concrete action on the economy. Obama does not deserve to be re-elected, which means (by default) tha Romney does deserve to be elected.

Romney, as a businessman, has a better skillset to help lead America's economic recovery than Obama, who has never run a business, or had to meet a payroll or even worked in the private sector,



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
Most people I've talked to are focusing on the economy. They absolutely think that the President has caused/prolonged/__insert here____ the economic crisis and that almost anyone can do better

The fiasco in Europe is knockng 1-2% off America's GDP growth and stifling domestic hiring. The euro crisis has added record strength to the dollar which as usual has hurt the US economy, made exports more expensive to overseas buyers and made investing abroad cheaper than nvesting/hiring at home.

Any preisdent would be in the same position, America no longer writes its own ticket economically - the rest of the world is much more influential.

Pu


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Closing Loopholes? Won't say which ones, but my bet is that the middle class gets the hit.

That would be interesting considering that some liberals seem to think that tax deductions and loopholes can only be used by the rich, despite a complete inability to show where the tax code says so.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
Most points covered above - he's way out of touch.

What presidential candidate isn't? I doubt anyone complained about Kennedy being too rich. I don't want an everyman president, because the everyman is kind of a dumbass.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
After he loses in November he'll go back to one of his enormous mansions and be forgotten about pretty quickly.

He's already done no matter what happens in the election. If I were him I'd find it awfully tempting to not refile those overpaid tax returns and flip a double barreled bird while getting on the plane for some island.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
What I don't understand is that how he can say that because he's a business man he'll be a good president.

He's not just any businessman, but a private equity guy who specialized in taking over struggling companies, cutting the failed parts, retooling and refocusing the parts that work and selling at a profit. A large portion of the government could use a similar treatment.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
Sure, he may know how to keep the financials in check, but what about all the other things that a president needs to know about?

How much do you think Eisenhower knew about running an economy? Clinton was far from being a military expert for that matter. Nobody on the planet knows enough to do the job without their army of advisers, so suffice to say that whoever is president will have people around them to keep other things in check.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
For a lot of people, a vote for Republicans means voting for war in the Middle East, that is their memory and still more or less Republican policy, its been the Bush family obsession.

First of all, that's a flawed memory since Clinton spent a pretty good chunk of his term sending American planes and troops overseas to Iraq, Bosnia, and Kosovo.

And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern president who wouldn't have reacted similarly to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Hell, I bet a lot of them would have marched all the way to Baghdad in 1991.

George W. was just a neocon and a born again Christian Zionist, which isn't something shared by the entirety of the Republican party by any stretch.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 10):

I'm not arguing one position or another. I'm saying what others I talk to tend to think. As far as what I think, I try not to get into that because the Commander-in-Chief is my boss  

Basically my point is the reasons I see many voting for Romney are straight forward and simple, despite others disagreeing. It isn't for some crazy reason, and most people I know aren't "voting for war with Iran."

I personally think that even Romney wouldn't go for a full-on invasion, but I do not wish to find out



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4107 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That would be interesting considering that some liberals seem to think that tax deductions and loopholes can only be used by the rich, despite a complete inability to show where the tax code says so.

Yet is Romney saying that he will close loopholes.. the ones that can be used by everyone. Raising effective tax rates for everyone.

You cant deny that the "rich" - for whatever reason - use these loopholes more often that the "poor"

So, BMI727 Which ones do you think he would cut?

Very interesting indeed...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
To me the guy is a plastic politician,


That is pretty funny coming from someone who supports Obama. Pres Obama is the perfect politician.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
What I don't understand is that how he can say that because he's a business man he'll be a good president. Sure, he may know how to keep the financials in check, but what about all the other things that a president needs to know about?


Right now that is by far the most important thing in the election right now.

Quoting pu (Reply 2):
Obama has it won unless he makes a major misstep sometime soon.


I somewhat agree with you but the debates will be interesting. I saw Romney on 60minutes today and that was the best I have seen him. He spoke well, gave some specifics and when he did not he gave the reasons why he does not have the specifics. If he can do what he did today on 60 minutes in the debate this is going to be a very close race.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
If Romeny could guarantee there will be no war with Iran or anyone else (unless attacked),


No one will guarantee that. If they do they are lying.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Obama has been largely a failure: massive deficits which will impoverish future generations and no concrete action on the economy. Obama does not deserve to be re-elected, which means (by default) tha Romney does deserve to be elected.


Bingo! Romney is not the best guy in the world to be president but Obama has failed. He has not even kept many of his own promises. He continues to be smoke and mirrors with some big government splashed in.


Let me tell a little story from a friend of mine who is one of the guys running their family business. This family business has about 150 employees and they serve the low income areas of Miami. Issue number 1, Obamacare is going to cost them a lot of money. It is going to cost them so much money that they are thinking about selling their business to a larger company. This is the problem with America right now, large companies are eating everything up. None of the sides are doing anything to stop this.


Also a recent employee of theirs who was with the company for 15 years decided to take a job at a large company. They told her not to leave, she would just be a "number" to them. She left and a few months later was fired and pleaded for her job back. They gave it to her.

After one day of working she did the math and told my friend that she would make a little bit less using unemployment so she quit. She filed for unemployment saying she could not work at the company due to some 7th day Saturday religion or something. My friend, her and the unemployment agency (whatever it is) had a phone conference. My friend let the agency know that the lady worked for them previously for 15 years and always worked on Saturdays. She mad an bbvious lie. Well they got a letter back saying my friend's company would not have to pay for unemployment but the government was still giving her unemployment money. So tax money. They decided this after an obvious lie.
^This is what the United States of America is coming to. We are certainly not moving forward.


I think everyone who thinks Romeny is all about the rich needs to watch his interview with 60 minutes.
A. Romney his whole entire life has cared about people less fortunate than him he wont stop now and he can't win an election if he does.
B. Romney believes that medicare and social security should give more benefits to the people that need it the most low income people. He knows he does not need medicare much or social security but others do. He also wants to close down loopholes for everyone yes. Another thing he wants to do is make the capital gains tax 0% for MIDDLE CLASS people not for wealthy Americans. He has no problem paying 14% on capital gains, he does have a problem that a family making $100k does.

[Edited 2012-09-23 19:00:14]

[Edited 2012-09-23 19:00:33]

[Edited 2012-09-23 19:01:38]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
This is the problem with America right now, large companies are eating everything up. None of the sides are doing anything to stop this.

That is the work of the free market, big corporations use their economies of scale to muscle out small businesses that simply do not have the ability to keep costs in line.

This is the Wal Mart effect



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

This is a thread about Romney. Obama has failed isn't a great argument for Romney. And "he's a businessman" falls a bit short, especially when you consider his background, it's not like he dreamed up his company while flipping burgers at McDonald's and seeded it with his hard earned money.

In fact, I wonder if there are statistics about the wealth of people 20 years after Harvard ? I doubt many are in trouble financially.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3951 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
And "he's a businessman" falls a bit short, especially when you consider his background

Specially since this year he chose to pay more taxes this past year that he was required to pay. What kind of business man is willing to leave money on the table?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 17):

The problem with that statement you made about him paying more taxes is if he paid the lowest rate possible you would just complain about that. It's a lose-lose situation for him. A pathetic situation that people are attacking him about legally paying taxes.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
What I don't understand is that how he can say that because he's a business man he'll be a good president.

Just how good a businessman is this guy? Made a LOT of money for himself, but as a capital guy. Look at top businessmen during our lives. Lee Iacocca? I'd give him high marks. Alan Mullally? First rate businessman. Steve Jobs? Top of the line also.

These guys ran (or are running) companies that produce products and are involved in production. These are the guys that build jobs.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
its been the Bush family obsession.

Bush I was probably the most effective President in a war time environment we have had. He quickly brought countries together, moved personnel & material into the area as fast as he could and let his top military people get on with doing the job at hand very professionally. He also had the wisdom to know when to end the hostilities.

Bush II was totally different. He listened to the absolute wrong people, like Cheney & Rummy, who really knew jack $hit about military needs in the area. I could care less about their "experience" in Defense Matters - they were playing game they should not have played. My guess is that Bush II didn't call his father for advice that would have been exceptionally valuable at that time.

Bush III? If you're talking about Jeb then I believe he is closer to his father than W in terms of international maturity. If you're talking about Mitt then I believe he will be closer to W when it comes to military conflicts. Especially if he gets a yo-yo like Bolton in a senior position.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
Most people I've talked to are focusing on the economy.

That is because Mitt has made so many dumb moves in other areas the economy is the only hope they have.

The odd thing is that, while the economy is difficult in many areas, it is also moving forward in other areas. I had to take a 2,000 mile road trip last week and was surprised at the number of big rigs on the road. There was the scattering of retailer trucks (like WalMart) but there was also a lot of open bed trucks carrying industrial parts or equipment.

I didn't count the trucks, but literally saw thousands on the interstate. It was pretty clear that there is a lot of "economic activity" going on with major movements of goods in both directions.

The GOP may not be able to count on a "bad economy" to get Willard elected.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Obama does not deserve to be re-elected, which means (by default) tha Romney does deserve to be elected.

Don't like Obama - that's clear. So write in Ron Paul and you'll probably be happier.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Romney, as a businessman, has a better skillset to help lead America's economic recovery than Obama, who has never run a business, or had to meet a payroll or even worked in the private sector,

A lot of people bring that up - meaning that a lot of people have forgotten that we had "businessmen" in the White House before. Bush II was an MBA and a "businessman" Even more impressive was Cheney, CEO of a major national corporation. (I think that Rummy was also CEO of a large company)

There you go - businessmen in the White House - just like some people believe is necessary TODAY.

How did those "businessmen" do? they delivered The Great Recession for starters. And started a totally unnecessary 10 year War, paid for with a credit card. They were loosing 750,000 jobs a month at the end of their businessmen led administration.

But, hey, the wealthy made huge strides under them.

Basically the best I can see for Mitt is that he would be Bush III a "Businessman President" - just like Bush III.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
I personally think that even Romney wouldn't go for a full-on invasion,

Mitt doesn't know what he would do, but there will be a "Cheney" around to handle the situation, get Halliburton lined up for their contract to make billions and get that tax cut in before going into another long term war on the credit card.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
but I do not wish to find out

Most Americans don't want to find out, but a plastic politician like Romney can be pushed and shoved into all sorts of decisions. Just look at W.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):

That is pretty funny coming from someone who supports Obama.

It's pretty easy to support Obama. First I look at all the FUBARs from Cheney/Bush, er, Bush/Cheney Years - including the Great Recession. Do I really want another "GOP Businessman" after the horrid Bush/Cheney Years? Not a chance.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Obama has failed



Well, he turned the economic death spiral around, avoiding a full blown depression we were heading towards.

He got health care reform passed. Not as good as it could have been, but the best compromise when you look at large groups (like health insurance companies) that had to sign on. That, BTW, was a campaign pledge so it was no surprise that it would be on the table.

He also had the Party of No willing to do any harm to the country in order to ensure Obama was a one term president.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
He has not even kept many of his own promises.



He has kept some. He returned our focus on finding OBL and he gave the green light to kill him

Promised to move out of Iraq and has done a good job there.

Promised health care reform and delivered

More was possible, but the Party of No and the TPers kept that from happening.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
o cost them so much money that they are thinking about selling their business to a larger company. This is the problem with America right now, large companies are eating everything up. None of the sides are doing anything to stop this.

Maybe they should firsts look to the law for help in paying for that insurance - if they are even interested in covering those employees.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Issue number 1, Obamacare is going to cost them a lot of money. It is going to cost them so much money that they are thinking about selling their business to a larger company.

Obviously your friend's company doesn't pay for health insurance on 150 employees. That means they generally have to go to the ER when they get sick, jacking up the costs of medicare for those who do have insurance. Also creating a 4 hour wait for those with insurance who go to the ER for legitimate reasons. That friend is part of the problem that made ObamaCare critical.



So if your friend sells have them call Bain Capital. They might as well make the money as your friend is pretty much a Romney Supporter.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
I doubt anyone complained about Kennedy being too rich.

JFK wasn't known for Swiss Bank Accounts, Bahamas & Caribbean tax free accounts, etc. Top rate when JFK was elected was 90% and he had that lowered to 75%. The country did well under that 75% top rate and

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
A large portion of the government could use a similar treatment.

Last time we moved Republican businessmen into the WHite House we ended up with The Great Recession. Who was the last Republican Businessman in the White House who actually did a good job for the country?n Can anyone remember one? (Rockefeller excluded - a VP and one called in to fill an empty seat in a difficult time.)

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
After one day of working she did the math and told my friend that she would make a little bit less using unemployment so she quit.

WHich pretty well indicates that your friend paid minimum wage, no health insurance and probably nothing else in terms of benefits. ]

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
This is what the United States of America is coming to.

Minimum wage jobs? Sure sounds like it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
We are certainly not moving forward.

Not when companies like that one shrink the middle class instead of growing it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 15):
This is the Wal Mart effect

WalMart started off very small and grew initially by serving small communities.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Just how good a businessman is this guy? Made a LOT of money for himself
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
These are the guys that build jobs.

Since when did business become about building jobs? It's all about making money. I can't see why people are criticizing him for that, it's like getting mad at a dog for barking. It's what they do. I can see not wanting to vote for him because of that reason, but saying he's not a good businessman, well, is untrue IMO

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
That is because Mitt has made so many dumb moves in other areas the economy is the only hope they have.

Not really, economy is just the top of most people's mind I find. If he had a solid plan that I think would turn the country around, I'd vote for him, despite his many short comings. Economy is key in this election to me and many others. JMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
The problem with that statement you made about him paying more taxes is if he paid the lowest rate possible you would just complain about that. It's a lose-lose situation for him. A pathetic situation that people are attacking him about legally paying taxes.

He paid taxes, but the issues on past returns would be interesting to see if he was involved in any of the "repatriation" of money from swiss banks or the like? Did he have a better financial understanding and footing for the recession?
Small details that may or not make hime or break him.



I will not be voting for Romney due to the following.
1. He was not the favorite choice amongs the GOP, he only became the default choice when everyone else was deemed a loser in a race against Obama
2. He helped architect Romneycare to give health options to the state of massachusettes, where it is working, and now wants to tear down Obama Care for the nation.
3. He has consistantly proved that an etch-a-sketch is his best platform. He ran as a moderate for governor of massachusetts, and is now a Strong Conservative for the GOP in 2012
4. Romney's gaff on the war on libya and the 47% indicate some questionable circles for his ideas of the people and policies of the US.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3849 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
It's a lose-lose situation for him. A pathetic situation that people are attacking him about legally paying taxes.

Its not a loose-loose. There is a lot to be said about honesty.

Right now, he is lying to your face.. how do you feel about that?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Since when did business become about building jobs? I

Exactly! So how does his "businessman" credentials help to be a better President?

[Edited 2012-09-24 12:57:41]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
So, BMI727 Which ones do you think he would cut?

Well considering that

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Yet is Romney saying that he will close loopholes.. the ones that can be used by everyone. Raising effective tax rates for everyone.

I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
A pathetic situation that people are attacking him about legally paying taxes.

  

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Made a LOT of money for himself, but as a capital guy. Look at top businessmen during our lives. Lee Iacocca? I'd give him high marks. Alan Mullally? First rate businessman. Steve Jobs? Top of the line also.

These guys ran (or are running) companies that produce products and are involved in production. These are the guys that build jobs.

I guess Staples just has an abnormally high proportion of customers who wear red shirts and help people. What about Domino's?

Just to get this straight, in your warped world running a company that employs people is good but running a company that owns companies that employ people is bad?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Mitt doesn't know what he would do, but there will be a "Cheney" around to handle the situation, get Halliburton lined up for their contract to make billions and get that tax cut in before going into another long term war on the credit card.

Damn right. War is great business, which is why invading Iran would be bad. You can't go around getting rid of boogeymen because eventually you will run out and then won't be able to justify keeping the gravy train rolling. I need the Iranians and Israelis to rattle their sabres.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
JFK wasn't known for Swiss Bank Accounts, Bahamas & Caribbean tax free accounts, etc. Top rate when JFK was elected was 90% and he had that lowered to 75%.

His dad just made a pile of cash via insider trading.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Last time we moved Republican businessmen into the WHite House we ended up with The Great Recession.

Of course if you weren't dumb enough to buy into the bubble you could have made a lot of money between the 9/11 recession and the housing crash.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Since when did business become about building jobs? It's all about making money.

  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3840 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Yet is Romney saying that he will close loopholes.. the ones that can be used by everyone. Raising effective tax rates for everyone.

I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

Cool.. so tell me - Which loopholes would you recommend closing?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 24):
Cool.. so tell me - Which loopholes would you recommend closing?

I'd just switch to Fair Tax.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3854 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 24):
Cool.. so tell me - Which loopholes would you recommend closing?

I'd just switch to Fair Tax.

But that is not what he is proposing....  

Again - what loopholes would you recommend him closing?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Bingo! Romney is not the best guy in the world to be president but Obama has failed. He has not even kept many of his own promises. He continues to be smoke and mirrors with some big government splashed in.

Obama has lied his way in office and he will lie his way out. And his big government and redistribution ideas concerns me.

Yes on Romney.Romney isn't the best guy.Make the adjustment again in four.But get Obama out of there.I did post why I didn't like to re-elect Obama in that other thread.

Go Romney!



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
Again - what loopholes would you recommend him closing?

I'd recommend him switching to Fair Tax, which basically has no loopholes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3848 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
Again - what loopholes would you recommend him closing?

I'd recommend him switching to Fair Tax, which basically has no loopholes.

But obvious he doesn't like the Fair Tax idea - Which current loophole do you think it would be most useful to close?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 29):
Which current loophole do you think it would be most useful to close?

Honestly, none of them. Raising taxes in a weak economy is a poor idea. (That was one of several things FDR did to prolong the Great Depression)



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Since when did business become about building jobs? It's all about making money.

So his experience is about making money, not building jobs?

Is that why he was one of the lowest rated governors in building jobs?

That's what you want for a President?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
If he had a solid plan

If he had a solid plan he would make it public. Right now all we have is him saying he has a "Plan". Sort of like Nixon having a "Secret Plan" to end the war in Vietnam.

Is Romney's plan a "Plan" or a "Secret Plan"?         

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
I guess Staples just has an abnormally high proportion of customers who wear red shirts and help people. What about Domino's?

Mitt CEO or President of Staples? Full time job there?

And Domino's - what did he do there? Get involved in test kitchen evals? What did he do there? And did he do it better than 9! 9! 9! Cain at running a pizza company?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
His dad just made a pile of cash via insider trading.

And he didn't get elected. Didn't even run.

And obviously Romney didn't benefit from insider knowledge.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Of course if you weren't dumb enough to buy into the bubble you could have made a lot of money between the 9/11 recession and the housing crash.

That is your only answer for a Republican Businessman who did a good job in the White House?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
I'd just switch to Fair Tax.

Where? In some Utopian seaside country?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
I'd recommend him switching to Fair Tax, which basically has no loopholes.

Someone was talking about lobbying the other day on TV and made an interesting comment; American business spends more money on Lobbyists (and related activity) than they do on taxes.

And you really believe there would be no "loopholes"?  Wow!

How about all those special credits, like the $4 Billion for he oil industry? What happens to that money?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
Mitt CEO or President of Staples? Full time job there?

More like provided capital to get it off the ground and spent fifteen years as a board member.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
And Domino's - what did he do there?

Bought the company and during the Bain years Domino's opened over 1,000 stores. None of them, of course, employed anyone.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
And you really believe there would be no "loopholes"?

Under Fair Tax they wouldn't need them, since there would be no corporate income tax.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):

Since when did business become about building jobs?

Because there are millions in Oklahoma, Indiana and Texas who shop at Walmart because they are streteched to make ends meet yet are still saying things like the rich should pay a lower rate in taxes (a low capital gains tax rate) because rich businessmen create jobs when they've got extra capital on their hands.

As you correctly point out, they don't create jobs, they chase higher returns. This means electronic cross border financial transactions are more preferred than investing in a new company or building a factory in America. They would rather finance a fatory in China to produce goods currently made in America as opposed to invest in America.

So there is a disconnect in that a lot of people are still thinking this is Reagan's era or earlier when the only real vehicles for large investors were stateside and that businessmen doing well is good for all Americans.

Not true anymore.

Pu


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Let's cut to the chase....

That fact of the manner is democrats just don't like business people in politics.Look what happen to Meg and Carly in Ca.This whole election and debates here have to do with Romney's taxes and wealth.Business people are hated by the democrats because they will cut, organize and downsize,

I would hit big time on Obama 16 trillion deficit.

Go Romney!



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 33):
As you correctly point out, they don't create jobs, they chase higher returns. This means electronic cross border financial transactions are more preferred than investing in a new company or building a factory in America.

There's no need to punish them for that.

Quoting pu (Reply 33):
They would rather finance a fatory in China to produce goods currently made in America as opposed to invest in America.

Who wouldn't? China has lower costs and an emerging market while America...doesn't. America will greet you with people who want to raise taxes and volume after volume of regulation.

Those are the barriers that need to be minimized in addition to creating an educated workforce to make America an attractive investment location.

Quoting pu (Reply 33):
Not true anymore.

No it isn't. America is going to have to work harder than ever to maintain a spot as a world leading economy.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
More like provided capital to get it off the ground and spent fifteen years as a board member.

So he picked up Director Fees for 15 years and didn't even have to work, even at an executive level.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
Bought the company and during the Bain years Domino's opened over 1,000 stores. None of them, of course, employed anyone.

Sounds like Herman Cain. Except Cain was more involved.

Again, outside of playing the capital game where has Romney worked in a business, even as an executive,

As far as his successes go there are also going to be failures that will be put up for public review before the election. Yet again. And there will be some nasty failures that will be hard to defend.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
since there would be no corporate income tax.

Great way to increase the national debt.

And to dump it on those in the middle class - or lower.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
So he picked up Director Fees for 15 years and didn't even have to work, even at an executive level.

There was also the small matter of the capital and guidance that came from Bain.

What do you think people who work in private equity do all day? Count money? Plot how to screw American workers?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Again, outside of playing the capital game where has Romney worked in a business, even as an executive,

The capital game is working in a business. It's obvious you just don't like Romney, but you make yourself look stupid trying to conjure up reasons why. Just say you don't like him because he's rich or whatever and own it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Great way to increase the national debt.

And to dump it on those in the middle class - or lower

It might seem that way. Unless of course one bothers to actually understand how Fair Tax would work.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

I just watched an interview of an economist talking about the global economy and especially the situation in Europe, but he mentioned that in the US two thirds of the growth goes to the 1%ers ! I doubt a "fair tax" would make that fairer.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):
That fact of the manner is democrats just don't like business people in politics.Look what happen to Meg and Carly in Ca

That just proves the Dems don't like useless CEOs. Given how well HP is doing I'm pretty glad California didn't end up with either of them.

I don't think Democrats particularly hate businesspeople as such- just the concept that the government should be run as a business. If somebody is a good businessperson it really doesn't translate to being a good president; balancing the books is just one part of the job.

Arguably now we need a technocrat more than a businessperson, but even that is useless with Congress deadlocked.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Since when did business become about building jobs? I

Exactly! So how does his "businessman" credentials help to be a better President?

Well I posted in another thread about this already, but you cannot deny being a successful businessman builds leadership. Now you may disagree with his policies 100% but can you deny the fact that he has leadership?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
That's what you want for a President?

I think I've made it fairly clear he's far from my first pick. I've got only a little longer if I'm going to 1: vote third party or stick with the major two parties and 2: if I stick with the two major parties, who would I pick (that is a toughie)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3682 times:
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[/quote]

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
but can you deny the fact that he has leadership?

Yes. He is lying to you face by choosing to pay more taxes. Is that leadership? Flip-floping.. is that leadership?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 29):
Which current loophole do you think it would be most useful to close?

Honestly, none of them. Raising taxes in a weak economy is a poor idea. (That was one of several things FDR did to prolong the Great Depression)

SO do you don't agree with Romney' economic "plan" then.. Do you?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 41):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
but can you deny the fact that he has leadership?

Yes. He is lying to you face by choosing to pay more taxes. Is that leadership? Flip-floping.. is that leadership?

What you are talking about???



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3678 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
What you are talking about???

Oh come on. Lying to your face.. Great Leadership demonstrated

"Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney chose to pay more in taxes than he needed to, forgoing about $250,000 in deductions to keep his tax rate above 13 percent."

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ral-tax-rate-in-2011-campaign-says



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Romney, as a businessman, has a better skillset to help lead America's economic recovery than Obama, who has never run a business, or had to meet a payroll or even worked in the private sector,

The biggest misconception out there.

Business is not interchangeable with politics.

Business is also not interchangeable with other businesses.

Could Romney run American Airlines? Delta Airlines?

No he couldn't, he'd run them just like Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo..he's cut each airline into pieces selling off the most prized assets shredding them to pieces. That is his business skillset. It's exactly what has made him wealthy. Sure he aided (and profited from Home Depot & Baskin Robbins) but neither are IBM, Microsoft well-paying type businesses..all the companies he's 'saved' are minimum wage enterprises.

After all their merging and destruction of 1000s of lives..there's not a person today who can say the airline industry is better off than it was 20-25 years ago. Working for them has gone from enjoyment to practically grueling. The experience if you has the pleasure of the 80s or 70s or 60s... is a complete disaster although back in the same period there was no PTV. It still doesn't compare.

Guys who've turned around airlines like Gordon Bethune actually know how to run a business and can probably run any business. Seeking out struggling and weak businesses and then taking a scapel to them and shredding them is no skill, it's a matter being heartless and not caring what happens to those hurt by your predatory craft. by definition..a sociopath. In Romney's case a gold plated sociopath.

The real deal on Mitt's skills...

Here’s what private equity is really about: A firm like Bain obtains cheap credit and uses it to acquire a company in a
"leveraged buyout." "Leverage" refers to the fact that the company being purchased is forced to pay for about 70 percent of its own acquisition, by taking out loans. If this sounds like an odd arrangement, that's because it is. Imagine a homebuyer purchasing a house and making the bank responsibe for repaying its own loan, and you start to get the picture.. But leveraged buyouts don't only hurt businesses, workers, and the economy generally – they also short-change taxpayers, via a giant loophole in the tax code that enables companies to deduct loan interest from taxes. The provision was originally intended to encourage borrowing to build new factories, not to finance leveraged buyouts. But, according to Notre Dame Professor Brad Badertscher, private equity -owned companies paid a 22 percent tax rate before being bought, and only 10 percent the year after being acquired.
That adds up to a savings of $130 billion in taxes since 2000."

In 1989, Romney led Bain Capital's purchase of Damon Corp., a medical testing company, and took a seat on the Board of Directors to better manage it. During Romney's four years, Bain tripled its investment, and Romney personally made $473,000 -- while Damon plumped its profits with Medicare fraud (running thousands of medical tests doctors didn't want, and billing Medicare for them). The company pled guilty to crimes committed during his tenure and paid a record fine of $119 million. Company President Joseph Isola pleaded no contest to fraud, and a vice president was also convicted.


Romney claims he "uncovered" the fraudulent claims and "took corrective action," but court records show that he did not notify prosecutors or stop the fraudulent billing. He just asked company lawyers what changes they could make to avoid prosecution, after the feds' LABSCAM prosecution targeted a different medical testing firm.


The cheating continued, prosecutors say, until the day Bain sold the company to Corning. Furthermore, Damon Corp. was required to list in various SEC filings any significant legal risks it faced. Romney made no mention of the fraud he "uncovered," even though it led to a $119 million fine,the largest in history. Damon Corp. is another Bain acquisition that later went bankrupt, killing over a thousand jobs -- but not before Bain made
$7.4 million in profit.

What he knows is how to fleece tax payes and investors but at that he's an expert.

If he was so good in Business...he would NOT have need a 1.3 Billion Tax Payer hand out to 'save' the Salt Lake Olympics.. his business skills (like the 1 Billion in campaign fund raising) should have came in handy..but no, fleecing taxpayers was better route. So handouts for him...are okay, but for the elderly, vets and those in real need... those people are not worthy.


Government cannot be ran like a business, those who think it can, no nothing about business nor gov't beyond the superficial pale.

Why can 't he run a government..let's look at his Government Running History..

Mitt Romney left office in Massachusetts in 2006 with the lowest approval rating of any governor in the history of the commonwealth (just 35%). Moreover, he was so unpopular by the time he left office that his Lt. Governor and chosen successor, Kerry Healy, was trounced in the election to succeed Mitt by one of Obama's close friends, Deval Patrick (who has since gone on to a re-election into his second term).

Mitt's unpopularity was so great that he effectively ended the GOP's 16-year hold on the Massachusetts' governorship. To be fair, the three GOP governors that preceded Mitt were pretty moderate , and much more consistent with their campaign promises, but still, the degree to which BayStater's now loath Mr. Romney set the Massachusetts GOP back considerably on Beacon Hill.

The worst Governor in Massachusetts history is now bidding for President of the US...he was a disaster for ONE state..now some quickly ignore that and want to try him on 49 others..that to me defies all common sense.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Romney is not the best guy in the world to be president but Obama has failed. He has not even kept many of his own promises.

And he has kept many others. You nor anyone else can name a President who has kept kept EVERY political promise he campaigned on..so your your disdain goes beyond that.

The same 'he has failed' argument was made by republicans about Clinton for 8 years! Non-Rush Limbaugh listeners were ignored...and rightfully so.

Of all that has been listed about Romney just 1 of those would kill Obama's chances. Just 1. If Obama had an off shore bank account - he'd be doomed. Romney has many..and they call him a success. Oddly, Patriotism goes out the window when cash is in the mix...unless it's Obama of course.

While Obama has failed..he has
.....advanced the plight of women.
He has advanced the rights of gay Americans (more than all other presidents combined - how any gay could not be happy with President I will never know - if a minority group of color ever saw this much advocacy from President in one term - they'd be so lucky).
He has bought about the end of troops in Iraq and closing shop in Afghanistan as Americans have had enough.
He has reversed the job hemmorraging under Bush. (i)When Bush left, GDP was at -9%, the lowest it had been in more than half a century. It had been negative for more than 5 consecutive quarters. We were losing almost a million jobs a month and each month 100,000 more than the previous month. That means a horrible downward spiral.

Obama COMPLETELY turned around the economy in 2009. By the end of 2009, GDP was at +6%, and it is still positive today. That means that Obama successfully averted a depression (= GDP at -10%) and ended the worst recession (= at least two consecutive quarters of negative GDP) in less than a year.(/i)

He has the most intensive and extensive global reach of US Foreign Policy the US has ever known or seen.
He's actively engaging the illegal immigration issue in a way to accomodate those here (to the chagrin of conservatives).
Harvard smart and yet very much able to identify with the common man...because he was one.
He clearly understands the need to keep America from looking like Mexico.. that a strong Middle Class is not only necessary ...but Essential!

From his days of being a high school bully to a Vietnam coward to a corporate raider he has painted a picture of himself as man who cares about his own skin ..period. He made that clear with his 'It's not my job to worry about those people " (the 47%) end quote. Bush background greatly indicated 'what kind of President he'd be and he did not fail at living up to that. And people said 'but he was a governor of a state..' yeah, so is Jan Brewer.



As President he will certainly allow Cheney & Rove input into his foreign policy circle. Halliburton and all those nightmares return and everyone wonders '...how did that happen?'

His personality trait indicates a huge lack of SINCERE empathy for America and the entire 300+ million Americans.

No, we don't need a President like that. Nothing close to that kind of track record will help the nation recover..there's not a single shred of proof, hint or suggestion in Romney's history to sustain the 'he can help America' argument.

BN747

[Edited 2012-09-24 18:40:17]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineaa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Obama has failed isn't a great argument for Romney.

It is when most people consider only the Republican or Democratic candidate. The only other option is to not vote.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):

Okay 1: he did some gimmicky political stunt (every politician in existence has done that)
2: where did he lie? He paid more than 13%

Are you saying that Romney was able to be a businessman without possessing leadership?? Having a rich dad is a huge leg up but if you're a worthless, lazy follower that can't even lead your own feet you won't be a successful anything. If you disagree with that then I guess we'll never agree.

Saying he possesses leadership qualities doesn't mean you like the guy or agree with his policies. Hitler was an outstanding leader--look at what he was able to accomplish. Doesn't mean he was a good guy--far from it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3650 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Having a rich dad is a huge leg up but if you're a worthless, lazy follower that can't even lead your own feet you won't be a successful anything.

I will agree with you there. Do you think that Obama has leadeship? or he got elected by being a lazy follower?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Okay 1: he did some gimmicky political stunt (every politician in existence has done that)

And stunts like these show leadership? I would think that owning up to your actions is what a leader would do? Hw should have done his taxes with all deduction allowed by law and the stand behind them, That is leadership!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 41):
SO do you don't agree with Romney' economic "plan" then.. Do you?

I like it better than I like Obama's, but overall I don't think it's great.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Business is not interchangeable with politics.

Neither is military service but that didn't stop Eisenhower. And I'd love for someone to explain how being an actor helped Ronald Reagan become a great president.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Sure he aided (and profited from Home Depot & Baskin Robbins) but neither are IBM, Microsoft well-paying type businesses..all the companies he's 'saved' are minimum wage enterprises.

What an idiotic criterion. Exactly what does the average employee pay have to be for something to be considered a worthy business? How can you completely discount the successes that Romney and Bain have had?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Seeking out struggling and weak businesses and then taking a scapel to them and shredding them is no skill, it's a matter being heartless and not caring what happens to those hurt by your predatory craft.

First you say they are struggling and weak and then you say he doesn't care about those hurt. Would you care to explain how someone who's job has been cut or outsourced in an attempt to save a struggling company is better off than someone who loses their job when their company goes bankrupt? What you consider a "predatory craft" is actually more like recycling.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
by definition..a sociopath. In Romney's case a gold plated sociopath.

Care to back that up? Being rich does not mean being a sociopath.

And I say that as someone who exhibits some sociopathic characteristics. Personally, I consider my tendency to be cold and calculating while making focused decisions based only on my interests or those of people close to me to be a tremendous asset.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Imagine a homebuyer purchasing a house and making the bank responsibe for repaying its own loan, and you start to get the picture.

Actually that's not accurate. The cash flows and proceeds from the sale of the asset are used to pay off the loan. And let's not forget that the groups providing funding are partners in all of this, private equity firms are not paperhanging at banks.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
But leveraged buyouts don't only hurt businesses, workers, and the economy generally

Not true. Plenty of successful companies employing many people have been involved with leveraged buyouts.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
they also short-change taxpayers, via a giant loophole in the tax code that enables companies to deduct loan interest from taxes.

Just like your mortgage.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
If he was so good in Business...he would NOT have need a 1.3 Billion Tax Payer hand out to 'save' the Salt Lake Olympics.. his business skills (like the 1 Billion in campaign fund raising) should have came in handy..but no, fleecing taxpayers was better route. So handouts for him...are okay, but for the elderly, vets and those in real need... those people are not worthy.

That's not an argument against Romney, that's an argument against hosting the Olympics.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Government cannot be ran like a business, those who think it can, no nothing about business nor gov't beyond the superficial pale.

Government cannot be run as the opposite of a business either, which it has for far too long. As a result, it now has to become leaner and more efficient and social programs will have to go. What sort of person would know about making organizations leaner and more efficient?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Oddly, Patriotism goes out the window when cash is in the mix...unless it's Obama of course.

Patriotism has nothing to do with how you manage your money. It's Romney's money, he can place it where he wishes.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
It had been negative for more than 5 consecutive quarters.

Not according to this.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):

Let's cut to the chase....

That fact of the manner is democrats just don't like business people in politics

What a load of crap. Truman was both a Democrat and a small business guy.

What Democrats don't really like are the Cheney types who leave the country in worse shape than when they were elected.

But, really, who could be impressed with the performance of the "businessmen" in the White House after W finished.

You really want to elect a Bush III after Bush II?

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):
Business people are hated by the democrats because they will cut, organize and downsize,

What a load of crap.

Obama sure didn't have a problem working with the execs at GM. That Democrat was happy to work things out when Romney favored liquidation. And IIRC it was the conservatives who were so against government support of Chrysler in their first crisis. How many man years of employment resulted in that "bailout" (that was very profitable for the Treasury.)

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
Who wouldn't? China has lower costs and an emerging market while America...doesn't.

American manufacturers have been burdened by employer nanny care for decades. Time to cut out that tax and make us more competitive.

And, while China is an emerging market, the US is still an existing market that intelligent companies can operate very profitable in. And it will be a strong market for a long time to come.

The question now is if we will invest more in education that companies like Exxon are pushing for. WIll we grow the country or continue to diminish our future?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
America will greet you with people who want to raise taxes and volume after volume of regulation.

America will also provide you with a huge market that can be very profitable. Some complain about the regulation and some are able to perform well while working within those regulations.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
There was also the small matter of the capital and guidance that came from Bain.

BFD. There were also some major failures that offset the successes. We'll be seeing those in the last month of the campaign.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
It's obvious you just don't like Romney, but you make yourself look stupid trying to conjure up reasons why.

As a politician I consider Romney pretty plastic. The guy has been great at deflecting everything from his tax returns to how he would reduce loopholes while maintaining current levels of tax revenues. Hiding the tax returns indicters to me that there were tax reduction actions taken in previous years that would be unacceptable to the average voter. Legal, but unacceptable.

On the loophole side I actually don't trust the guy with deductions for home mortgage interest and property taxes.

Before Huntsman entered the primaries I considered Romney the pick of the litter. I think I even mentioned him in a positive manner in those days.

My change in opinion on Romney has been based on what Romney has done and what he has not done. Start with the deflections - that is a no-no IMO. And, frankly, people who support Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid should have very little trust in Romney on protecting those programs - especially after picking Ryan for his VP choice.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Just say you don't like him because he's rich or whatever and own it.

A don't dislike Romney as a person - I liked & admired Steve Jobs who had far more wealth than Romney. Assuming, of course, that Romney hasn't hid even more money overseas.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5576 posts, RR: 28
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
We elected Clinton, Bush and Obama so why not Romney?

Good point.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
If Romeny could guarantee there will be no war with Iran or anyone else (unless attacked), he would pick up many of the swing voters who have simply made not wanting more war their key issue.

Uh, if a leader ever made a promise like that, I'd never vote for them. Why should they (we) tie our hands behind our backs just to make people feel better? I don't want to see my kids go off to war in other countries, but I sure as hell don't want to make some sort of assinine promise just to placate some pacifists.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Also a recent employee of theirs who was with the company for 15 years decided to take a job at a large company. They told her not to leave, she would just be a "number" to them. She left and a few months later was fired and pleaded for her job back. They gave it to her.

After one day of working she did the math and told my friend that she would make a little bit less using unemployment so she quit. She filed for unemployment saying she could not work at the company due to some 7th day Saturday religion or something. My friend, her and the unemployment agency (whatever it is) had a phone conference. My friend let the agency know that the lady worked for them previously for 15 years and always worked on Saturdays. She mad an bbvious lie. Well they got a letter back saying my friend's company would not have to pay for unemployment but the government was still giving her unemployment money. So tax money. They decided this after an obvious lie.
^This is what the United States of America is coming to. We are certainly not moving forward.

Seen it numerous times in various forms over the years. If she isn't willing to work, why should we pay for her unemployment?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
These guys ran (or are running) companies that produce products and are involved in production. These are the guys that build jobs.

They "didn't build that".

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
That is because Mitt has made so many dumb moves in other areas the economy is the only hope they have.

BS. While that's a convenient throwaway line for you to say, the fact of the matter is that people are tired of the poor job market and are looking for a change. As an employer, I contnue to see applications roll in at the same pace as they have since late 2008 - though certainly 2009 was the worst year for everyone - and I think that many, many, many people have grown tired of looking for employment and are just dropping out of the market and taking instead government money to go to school. In the meantime, turnover continues to be very low - most people that have a job are happy to have a job and are sticking around.

If it makes you feel better knowing that people have given up looking for work and that this somehow makes Obama sound successful to you, fine. I'll let the applicants pouring in know that you want them to stop looking for a job until after the election.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
The odd thing is that, while the economy is difficult in many areas, it is also moving forward in other areas. I had to take a 2,000 mile road trip last week and was surprised at the number of big rigs on the road. There was the scattering of retailer trucks (like WalMart) but there was also a lot of open bed trucks carrying industrial parts or equipment.

Lol. Oye. Ok, so you saw a lot of trucks. I hope that Obama uses that in his debates as evidence.

While the economy is in poor shape, we still_do_have_an_economy. There's trains rolling, trucks running, planes flying, ships floating, oil pumping, etc. It didn't all stop and then now suddenly - thanks to Obama - all start up again. The trucks have been there every day throughout the economic crisis. They have ebbed and flowed, but they've been there.

Oh, did you hear? Fedex and UPS have both reduced expectations for 2013. They aren't nearly as enthusiastic as you are.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
The GOP may not be able to count on a "bad economy" to get Willard elected.

Tell that to the people on the street. If Obama has one thing to fear, it's the reality that the job market is still tough and people are still hurting. They won't care about abortion rights or war in Afghanistan - they'll care about food on the table and making the rent payment.

And yes - you can count on it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Don't like Obama - that's clear. So write in Ron Paul and you'll probably be happier.

Actually, I think him writing in Ron Paul would make YOU happy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
It's pretty easy to support Obama. First I look at all the FUBARs from Cheney/Bush, er, Bush/Cheney Years - including the Great Recession. Do I really want another "GOP Businessman" after the horrid Bush/Cheney Years? Not a chance.

So in other words, you are voting for who he isn't rather than for who he is. Got it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
He has kept some. He returned our focus on finding OBL and he gave the green light to kill him

I think it's time to let this one get put to bed. To imply that Bush didn't want OBL is crazy. These things are not conducted by the president. In fact, the guys on the ground probably wish they didn't even need to make the long-distance call for permission.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
More was possible, but the Party of No and the TPers kept that from happening.

Uh-huh......Democrats - the party of the perpetual victim.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
WHich pretty well indicates that your friend paid minimum wage, no health insurance and probably nothing else in terms of benefits. ]

Hmmm...did he say that? And if they don't want to make minimum wage, why don't they do something about it? Get an education, study a trade - in other words, take responsibility for their own life rather than blame someone else? At least he was paying them and gave her a job back. Sounds like a horrible human being to me.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Damn right. War is great business, which is why invading Iran would be bad. You can't go around getting rid of boogeymen because eventually you will run out and then won't be able to justify keeping the gravy train rolling. I need the Iranians and Israelis to rattle their sabres.

In a sick, twisted sort of way, that is true.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
The capital game is working in a business. It's obvious you just don't like Romney, but you make yourself look stupid trying to conjure up reasons why. Just say you don't like him because he's rich or whatever and own it.

Word.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 39):
I don't think Democrats particularly hate businesspeople as such- just the concept that the government should be run as a business. If somebody is a good businessperson it really doesn't translate to being a good president; balancing the books is just one part of the job.

Funny. The government has no problem playing "businessman" when it comes to telling companies how THEY should function. Odd, since being a good tax collector doesn't translate to being a good businessman. Taking people's money is only one part of the job.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
After all their merging and destruction of 1000s of lives..there's not a person today who can say the airline industry is better off than it was 20-25 years ago. Working for them has gone from enjoyment to practically grueling.

BS. My sister in law is an FA. They have a great home, a great life, she makes her own schedule, makes great money, travels for penny's on the dollar, etc. If the job is grueling, it's because she's grown tired of the job itself (work rules, tasks, etc) or she's grown tired of the bad customers. It isn't because some evil rich white guy has fleeced her life savings and left her destitute. AND her carrier is consistently profitable.

But go on whining about how bad it is to have a job.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Guys who've turned around airlines like Gordon Bethune actually know how to run a business and can probably run any business.

BS. He had leadership. He turned around a company that was at it's end. Did he do a great job at turning it around? Sure. Could someone else have done it? Sure.

I think sometimes we idolize people when we really shouldn't. For all anyone knows, he might have swooped in to AA this year but had little success and ended up getting booted out like those before him. You don't know. All you go by is something that went well 20 years ago and now he walks on water.

Alan Mulally? There are people around here (Seattle) who would say that he jumped ship from the 787 program to Ford knowing where it was headed. Great leader?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 49):
American manufacturers have been burdened by employer nanny care for decades. Time to cut out that tax and make us more competitive.

There's nothing free about "free" healthcare. The costs are going to have to be placed somewhere, so if companies no longer have to pay for employee benefits the employees will have to in the form of higher taxes. Unless you just want to send the bill to America's millionaires.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 49):
The question now is if we will invest more in education that companies like Exxon are pushing for. WIll we grow the country or continue to diminish our future?

We better, because that's the only thing that's left. It will take funding, which will need to come from savings on social programs, but if America loses it's education advantage (which is rapidly diminishing) other countries will hold basically all the cards.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 49):
Some complain about the regulation and some are able to perform well while working within those regulations.

No matter how well you work with the regulations, you could work at least as well with fewer regulations. Some reasonable regulations will have to remain, to keep people from being eaten by machines and things like that.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5576 posts, RR: 28
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
Some reasonable regulations will have to remain, to keep people from being eaten by machines and things like that.

Lol. Ok, at least there is some fun in this thread.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):

Neither is military service but that didn't stop Eisenhower. And I'd love for someone to explain how being an actor helped Ronald Reagan become a great president.

Eisenhower was preceded by T. Roosevelt, Jackson, Washington..exceptional individuals exist. Romney is not one of them.

Reagan, sure, he was an actor, he acted and 'looked' Presidential .. MOST Americans (as well as other nationalities) fall for imagery over details. At this moment many people like the way Romney 'looks' .. his appearance is of that of the distinguished, well manicured executive...but his mind betrays him as rather spineless. He flies off the cuff to quickly without thinking.

The measure and test of a man's confidence becomes quite clear when he or she is amid the presence of more powerful and wealthier individuals. Either you maintain composure..or you falter and crumble into pitiful gestures of deference. Romney has done this in the presence of Trump and others - to those who know, it is a grave sign of weakness.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Sure he aided (and profited from Home Depot & Baskin Robbins) but neither are IBM, Microsoft well-paying type businesses..all the companies he's 'saved' are minimum wage enterprises.

What an idiotic criterion. Exactly what does the average employee pay have to be for something to be considered a worthy business? How can you completely discount the successes that Romney and Bain have had?

Because some like to believe one success translates into everything being a success, Obama Osama capture some how doesn't apply. Turning around minimum wage corps is like turning around Spirit or Great Lakes airlines....turn around American Airlines..and you are a Wall Street Superstar. Big difference.


Necause

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Seeking out struggling and weak businesses and then taking a scapel to them and shredding them is no skill, it's a matter being heartless and not caring what happens to those hurt by your predatory craft.

First you say they are struggling and weak and then you say he doesn't care about those hurt. Would you care to explain how someone who's job has been cut or outsourced in an attempt to save a struggling company is better off than someone who loses their job when their company goes bankrupt? What you consider a "predatory craft" is actually more like recycling.

False, recycling applies only after items/entities are completely discarded.

Many and I mean MANY companies have been in an ailing state (JAL) and managed to rebound without going the Romney route. The airline industry is the mess it is today because of Romney-like attitudes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
by definition..a sociopath. In Romney's case a gold plated sociopath.

Care to back that up? Being rich does not mean being a sociopath.

Do you even know what a sociopath is?

Are you reading this backwards..one has nothing to do with the other. To be in the a predatory business as his, you MUST be a sociopath, if you aren't you WILL be eaten alive! It is the nature of the business..what are you not getting about LBOs and Corporate raiders? Rich has nothing to do with it..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
And I say that as someone who exhibits some sociopathic characteristics. Personally, I consider my tendency to be cold and calculating while making focused decisions based only on my interests or those of people close to me to be a tremendous asset.

Then as soon as you graduate, this is the perfect business model for you. But beware..people do get hurt in these situations. Develop a serious sense of paranoia.. because the more money you make, the bigger the target you become. As Donald Trump says, 'a little paranoia is good for ya'..'

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
But leveraged buyouts don't only hurt businesses, workers, and the economy generally

Not true. Plenty of successful companies employing many people have been involved with leveraged buyouts.

But have put many more people out on the streets especially more senior or long termers. Again, the airline industry provides the best example.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
If he was so good in Business...he would NOT have need a 1.3 Billion Tax Payer hand out to 'save' the Salt Lake Olympics.. his business skills (like the 1 Billion in campaign fund raising) should have came in handy..but no, fleecing taxpayers was better route. So handouts for him...are okay, but for the elderly, vets and those in real need... those people are not worthy.

That's not an argument against Romney, that's an argument against hosting the Olympics.

Wrong again..Romney claims the success, then he MUST also claim asking for public assistance to make it happen.
It's all him. Google him bragging about it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Government cannot be ran like a business, those who think it can, no nothing about business nor gov't beyond the superficial pale.

Government cannot be run as the opposite of a business either, which it has for far too long. As a result, it now has to become leaner and more efficient and social programs will have to go. What sort of person would know about making organizations leaner and more efficient?

I don't know what the opposite of a business means..as stated, all businesses are not the same.

The social side has been paying since Reagan and 1980..they've endured continuous cuts for 32 years..that's enough.
With the state of the nation being as fragile as it is, a sociopath is worse possible solution. The necessary deep cuts now need to come from the military, the officer corps to be specific.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Oddly, Patriotism goes out the window when cash is in the mix...unless it's Obama of course.

Patriotism has nothing to do with how you manage your money. It's Romney's money, he can place it where he wishes.

The comment is directed toward 'those' who make exceptions or overlook the actions of one because of their wealth..not at Romney himself. Example... if some creepy 75 year guy on your block gets a hottie 22yo girlfriend...the neighbors go bonkers and start calling him a perv and let him know they do not approve. But Hugh Hefner, ONLY because of his wealth (and all like hi..m)..is he/they the exception.

We certainly do make exceptions when under the spell of wealth..I see it every day. And you make no bones about hiding it in your wish/quest to be wealthy.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
After all their merging and destruction of 1000s of lives..there's not a person today who can say the airline industry is better off than it was 20-25 years ago. Working for them has gone from enjoyment to practically grueling.

BS. My sister in law is an FA. They have a great home, a great life, she makes her own schedule, makes great money, travels for penny's on the dollar, etc. If the job is grueling, it's because she's grown tired of the job itself (work rules, tasks, etc) or she's grown tired of the bad customers. It isn't because some evil rich white guy has fleeced her life savings and left her destitute. AND her carrier is consistently profitable.

Yes, Southwest, the exception..and now every US legacy has fallen below 'Southwest service' quality. Great your sisters life worked..many many other FA's and flight crews of former carriers have not panned out so well due to LBOs and takeovers.



BN747

[Edited 2012-09-24 20:34:35]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Because some like to believe one success translates into everything being a success, Obama Osama capture some how doesn't apply.

Who's not giving Obama credit for killing Bin Laden? You just don't get to decide that Romney's business successes don't count because they don't employ enough people for you.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Turning around minimum wage corps is like turning around Spirit or Great Lakes airlines....turn around American Airlines..and you are a Wall Street Superstar.

That makes literally no sense at all. You think the difficulty of turning around a given business is based on how much their employees are paid?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
False, recycling applies only after items/entities are completely discarded.

So there is no value in buying a company and starting to turn it around before it has to go into bankruptcy and buy assets out of that? Not that that is necessarily a bad way to go, but again, your line of thinking is at best questionable.

Not every private equity acquisition is on the brink of going out of business, but they all are judged to have the potential to perform better than they are currently and private equity firms risk a lot of money betting on their ability to unlock that potential.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Many and I mean MANY companies have been in an ailing state (JAL) and managed to rebound without going the Romney route.

No, JAL did not have to go the private equity route. They got a bailout partially funded by the Japanese government instead.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Then as soon as you graduate, this is the perfect business model for you.

And potentially make millions? Sign me up!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
But beware..people do get hurt in these situations.

I think I'll be able to sleep at night.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
But have put many more people out on the streets especially more senior or long termers. Again, the airline industry provides the best example.

Businesses aren't run for the employees, they're run for the owners. Unfortunately downsizing is sometimes necessary.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
I don't know what the opposite of a business means..as stated,

Spending money like a drunken sailor and calling it a revenue problem when you spend over one and a half times what you bring in. That's not economic policy, that's a fifteen year old girl.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Wrong again..Romney claims the success, then he MUST also claim asking for public assistance to make it happen.

What Olympic games ever was hosted without public funding?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
The social side has been paying since Reagan and 1980..they've endured continuous cuts for 32 years..that's enough.

No it's not. Not even close to enough.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
The necessary deep cuts now need to come from the military, the officer corps to be specific.

That would be the worst possible idea because 1) defense is something we all actually need the government to do, unlike cutting welfare checks and 2) this would be a really bad time to neglect defense and the security complex which needs to be retooled after ten years of grueling war and stay ahead of the curve with respect to technology. Especially when we need to continue a worldwide war on terror which has to be a smarter more widespread effort. In the future the force may be smaller, but not necessarily cheaper. Just because fighting terrorists may be done on the ground by allies and their police units or small teams of special forces does not mean that it needn't be a smart, high-tech effort.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Example... if some creepy 75 year guy on your block gets a hottie 22yo girlfriend...the neighbors go bonkers and start calling him a perv and let him know they do not approve. But Hugh Hefner, ONLY because of his wealth (and all like hi..m)..is he/they the exception.

First, what the hell neighborhood do you live in where that happens? Second, everyone knows Hef is a creepy old man but he just doesn't care. Hell he'd probably admit it. And third, that's about the furthest you can get from a Mormon presidential candidate.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Yes, Southwest, the exception..and now every US legacy has fallen below 'Southwest service' quality. Great your sisters life worked..many many other FA's and flight crews of former carriers have not panned out so well due to LBOs and takeovers.

The same sort of new economic reality that is now hitting the American economy as a whole hit the airlines with deregulation. The "fall" was largely because of airlines (strong ones and weak) being largely propped up by government regulation. The artificial help allowed them to get to an unsustainable state that came crashing down after deregulation and we may only just now be getting to the end of those effects. You can see a similar pattern in more than one state owned airline that became economic basket cases.

And since you brought it up, I should also mention that the JAL bailout does include a significant number of job cuts, which as I understand it are not as culturally accepted in Japan.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
WalMart started off very small and grew initially by serving small communities.

It may have but as it grew it was able to (not sure if it was intentional) drive out competition consisting of mom and pop shops all over North America which are the small business that no longer can compete. Not because of regulations and tax laws but when you are facing corporations with heaps of cash


Quoting zckls04 (Reply 39):
I don't think Democrats particularly hate businesspeople as such- just the concept that the government should be run as a business. If somebody is a good businessperson it really doesn't translate to being a good president; balancing the books is just one part of the job.

A good CEO cares more than just about the bottom line, yes money has to be made but they need everyone on board to create success.

The CEO and management team are responsible for the culture of a specific corporation which creates a strategy moving forward in the current climate. When a company hires a new CEO they want this vision from them if they want long term success to be able to evolve.

If Mitt Romney provided a vision for America like Reagan did he would have a double digit lead right now even with all the gaffes. The other guys sucks and just trust me doesn't fly, especially when you have to convince far more people then just your board to get things done.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Because some like to believe one success translates into everything being a success, Obama Osama capture some how doesn't apply.

Who's not giving Obama credit for killing Bin Laden?

Is anything spoken or broadcast about Republicans banned where you are?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
You just don't get to decide that Romney's business successes don't count because they don't employ enough people for you.

Huge mis-read on your part. I'm attacking the very predatory nature of his business. I don't care if Bain has 1 million employees..it's what they do that's destructive.

When you graduate...build a company.
Get snookered... and you very well might, suddenly your desperate..someone throws you a life preserver. Wake up the next day and you're no longer the CEO nor even allowed on the property, thanks to a Romney like shark. Many have said 'oh, that won't happen to me...'

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Turning around minimum wage corps is like turning around Spirit or Great Lakes airlines....turn around American Airlines..and you are a Wall Street Superstar.

That makes literally no sense at all. You think the difficulty of turning around a given business is based on how much their employees are paid?

Makes plenty of sense in Fortune 500 circles. It's the quality of the company.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Many and I mean MANY companies have been in an ailing state (JAL) and managed to rebound without going the Romney route.

No, JAL did not have to go the private equity route. They got a bailout partially funded by the Japanese government instead.

No different from GM.

But proof that Romney method is an answer to nothing but widespread misery for the majority and huge payday for the raisers and CEOs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
But beware..people do get hurt in these situations.

I think I'll be able to sleep at night.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
I don't know what the opposite of a business means..as stated,

Spending money like a drunken sailor and calling it a revenue problem when you spend over one and a half times what you bring in. That's not economic policy, that's a fifteen year old girl.

That's not the opposite of business, that's an example of one person's conduct. ....try again.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Wrong again..Romney claims the success, then he MUST also claim asking for public assistance to make it happen.

What Olympic games ever was hosted without public funding?

Not the point.

You can't trash 'public assistance' while taking 1.3 Billion of it...no matter the excuse.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
The social side has been paying since Reagan and 1980..they've endured continuous cuts for 32 years..that's enough.

No it's not. Not even close to enough.

LOL...yeah, okay.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
The necessary deep cuts now need to come from the military, the officer corps to be specific.

That would be the worst possible idea because 1) defense is something we all actually need the government to do, unlike cutting welfare checks and 2) this would be a really bad time to neglect defense and the security complex which needs to be retooled after ten years of grueling war and stay ahead of the curve with respect to technology. Especially when we need to continue a worldwide war on terror which has to be a smarter more widespread effort. In the future the force may be smaller, but not necessarily cheaper. Just because fighting terrorists may be done on the ground by allies and their police units or small teams of special forces does not mean that it needn't be a smart, high-tech effort.

The worst possible idea to someone who knows nothing about the defense/military business.

I've been in, my dad has, my brother just left to be a military contractor. Your reply reflects little knowledge of what most the public doesn't see. But in short, our military can do everything you've listed at half the current budget. Period.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Example... if some creepy 75 year guy on your block gets a hottie 22yo girlfriend...the neighbors go bonkers and start calling him a perv and let him know they do not approve. But Hugh Hefner, ONLY because of his wealth (and all like hi..m)..is he/they the exception.

First, what the hell neighborhood do you live in where that happens? Second, everyone knows Hef is a creepy old man but he just doesn't care.

I live within 1 mile of Hefner, and hordes of older men are dating super young girls...this is the land of that kind of lifestyle. 'Everyone' knows Hef's a creepy old man? And every male you know would like to be that creepy old man were it possible, the liars will deny it. And your summary of Hefner's lifestyle and understanding of sexuality in that realm is rather - naive.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Example... if some creepy 75 year guy on your block gets a hottie 22yo girlfriend...the neighbors go bonkers and start calling him a perv and let him know they do not approve. But Hugh Hefner, ONLY because of his wealth (and all like hi..m)..is he/they the exception.

And third, that's about the furthest you can get from a Mormon presidential candidate.

The comment had nothing to do with a mormon candidate..are you having trouble keep thoughts in context? The Hefner example is pointing how we judge two people doing the same thing - yet judged differently because of the perception of wealth.

If Obama had Romney's background (everything listed above), was as wealthy, he would have never been elected in the first place. America's double standard at work.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
Is anything spoken or broadcast about Republicans banned where you are?

I don't pay attention to any of it. And for what it's worth, I imagine a lot of the people involved with finding and setting up the operation to kill Bin Laden were not political appointees.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
I'm attacking the very predatory nature of his business. I don't care if Bain has 1 million employees..it's what they do that's destructive.

What's predatory about buying companies, often ones near failure, and making them work better? More like renewal than being a predator, but even so, business is business.

And if the private equity people make money, the company is doing well, and people are employed, who is losing? Sounds like a darn good deal to me.

Also, how could anything a private equity firm could do worse than just letting the business fail with no attempts at revival? Do they spray nerve agents in the factories or something?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
When you graduate...build a company.
Get snookered... and you very well might, suddenly your desperate..someone throws you a life preserver. Wake up the next day and you're no longer the CEO nor even allowed on the property, thanks to a Romney like shark. Many have said 'oh, that won't happen to me...'

People get companies hijacked? Of course that "life preserver" could be quite a lot of money, which I would be quite happy with. Even hostile takeovers aren't outright theft.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
Makes plenty of sense in Fortune 500 circles. It's the quality of the company.

Actually the quality of a company would best be measured by other things like market cap, profits, or returns for investors. It's better to make $1,000,000 with two employees than $999,999 with a thousand employees.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
No different from GM.

That was stupid too.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
But proof that Romney method is an answer to nothing but widespread misery for the majority and huge payday for the raisers and CEOs.

I bet all the people at Toys'R'Us hate the fact that they're all still employed.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
But in short, our military can do everything you've listed at half the current budget. Period.

Well let's see it. I don't doubt that there are things that could be more efficient, but I bet it's not half. Plus there are things that probably should be done that aren't.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
I live within 1 mile of Hefner, and hordes of older men are dating super young girls...this is the land of that kind of lifestyle.

I fail to see how that is your problem or mine.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
And every male you know would like to be that creepy old man were it possible, the liars will deny it.

Duh. I'm not a big fan of bathrobes, but I'll take the models. And I'd love to have Romney's money too.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
The Hefner example is pointing how we judge two people doing the same thing - yet judged differently because of the perception of wealth.

Who are the other people doing that? Not many 22 year old women would hang out with 75 year old guys who are neither rich nor their grandfather.

Anyway, do you have a point about all of this or are you just saying things? If this were an Aaron Sorkin show you'd have made about three laps around the set, talked a lot, and said nothing.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Wait... first you ask..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):

Who's not giving Obama credit for killing Bin Laden?

Then you say...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 58):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
Is anything spoken or broadcast about Republicans banned where you are?

I don't pay attention to any of it.

Then why bother asking the former in the 1st place?

Okay...on that note, I'm just saying 'No to the OP's question'... Romney's far from qualified and I've shared my observations as to why.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8149 posts, RR: 26
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Well now Romney apparently believes pressurized aircraft require windows that open. That seals the deal for me.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81619.html?hp=l2

“When you have a fire in an aircraft, there’s no place to go, exactly, there’s no — and you can’t find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem. So it’s very dangerous. And she was choking and rubbing her eyes. Fortunately, there was enough oxygen for the pilot and copilot to make a safe landing in Denver.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 60):
Well now Romney apparently believes pressurized aircraft require windows that open. That seals the deal for me.

Oh yes I saw this.

He said the biggest problem in a distressed aircraft is that "the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem. So it’s very dangerous."

He then said "also, I would like a chance to pull the cord on the emergency slides. Do you think I could try that??? Pretty please?

uhhhhh

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ey-airplane-windows_n_1910930.html
Mitt Romney Wonders Why Ann Romney's Airplane Windows Don't Roll Down

Everyone knows you can't jump out of a closed window.
I always pack a parachute in my carry on.

  

It's funny cause it's absurd to even consider this guy as presidential.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 488 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3440 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 60):
Well now Romney apparently believes pressurized aircraft require windows that open. That seals the deal for me.

     

Honestly, what World does this guy live in?


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3426 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
Funny. The government has no problem playing "businessman" when it comes to telling companies how THEY should function. Odd, since being a good tax collector doesn't translate to being a good businessman. Taking people's money is only one part of the job.

Somewhere in here there's a point, but I just can't seem to find it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 56):
If Mitt Romney provided a vision for America like Reagan did he would have a double digit lead right now even with all the gaffes. The other guys sucks and just trust me doesn't fly, especially when you have to convince far more people then just your board to get things done.

True, but I think that's independent of whether he's a businessman or not, and I still don't think being a businessman and being a President are the same skillset. Would Donald Trump make a good president?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):
Let's cut to the chase....

That fact of the manner is democrats just don't like business people in politics.Look what happen to Meg and Carly in Ca.This whole election and debates here have to do with Romney's taxes and wealth.Business people are hated by the democrats because they will cut, organize and downsize,

I would hit big time on Obama 16 trillion deficit.

Go Romney!

What a load of crap!

1) Democrats like business people just as much as Republicans, the difference is that they object to business people abusing their workers, the environment, the community just to make $$$ for themselves

2) Meg and Carly were just bad candidates full stop

3) The deficit is due to lower tax receipts due to a bad domestic and international economy + the losses of jobs across the board. Romney or Cain would have faced the same deficits. This has nothing to do with Obama and to make myself totally clear, The president has very little power to control either the domestic or the international economy.

Back to the topic, Romney doesn't deserve it because he is out of touch with the people (47% anyone???), does not control his party (which Republican in senate, congress or at state is going to listen to him???), is awful in foreign policy. (London olympics comments about Libya anyone???) That plus his lack of clear vision for the country (I don't call cutting taxes for example an economic policy i'm sorry) is a clear indicator that he does not deserve.

For all their flaws, at least The bushes and other Reagans were able to lead their party (and their country)!!! Romney cannot he has demonstrated it plenty of times!


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
And I'd love for someone to explain how being an actor helped Ronald Reagan become a great president.

I believe he took Poli Sci in college and he did serve a term as governor of California.

Basically, though, he just had the good luck to follow Carter.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Neither is military service but that didn't stop Eisenhower.

Ike was an exceptional administrator, How many times in his younger years did he lead troops on the battlefield?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
How can you completely discount the successes that Romney and Bain have had?

You can't completely discount it, but you can offset the wins by the losses. Especially any losses that cost the taxpayers money. Like picking up abandoned retirement programs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Just like your mortgage.

Which Romney may well eliminate in order to reduce the top tax rte 20%

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Government cannot be run as the opposite of a business either, which it has for far too long.

Might actually be the other way around - businesses "running" the government. Look at the influence of Defense contractors.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
As a result, it now has to become leaner and more efficient and social programs will have to go.

Starting with Defense?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
What sort of person would know about making organizations leaner and more efficient?

Certainbly not Romney. His business experience excludes satisfying the public needs.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
They "didn't build that".

hey didn't build the eduction system that taught it's workers. They didn't build all the roads that are critical to the inflow of their components, and distribution or their final products.

There are lots of supporting factors to their success that they didn't build. But you already know that, don't you?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
people are tired of the poor job market and are looking for a change.

Have them call the "Job Creators" that received so much praise from Conservatives. There is supposed to be some magic there that can override the realities of a Great Recession and economic problems the world over.

At least we are not loosing 750,000 jobs a month. That was the reality of a GOP administration and it is going to take a generation to recover. If we can recover at all.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
If it makes you feel better knowing that people have given up looking for work and that this somehow makes Obama sound successful to you, fine.

750,000 jobs lost each MONTH. How hard is that for you to understand? I guess you believe that Romney is good friends with the Job Fairy and can make it all better with his secret economic plan.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):
Lol. Oye. Ok, so you saw a lot of trucks.

Actually I saw a lot of business activity on those roads. Enough to impress me. Laugh all you want, it would have been relatively empty Interstates that would have been a concern. But, of course, nothing disappoints a Republican more than to hear of economic improvements during Obama's Administration.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
You think the difficulty of turning around a given business is based on how much their employees are paid?

If you consider wages/salaries paid being related to the complexity of the job then, yes. It is easier to turn around a pizza company where the biggest training challenge is learning to identify the ingredients. Same with a big box office supply company. Low wages possible because the most important job is knowing how to stock shelves in accordance with the corporate plan.

COmpare those low wage companies with one that is dependent on well paid engineers or designers or programmers. That is going to be more difficult to turn around, especially in a competitive market.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
so if companies no longer have to pay for employee benefits the employees will have to in the form of higher taxes.

Bingo!

Think about it a minute. A company is able to grow profits because that unnecessary cost is off their back then they can pay a Medicare For All Tax.

But, if that same company hits a tough spell then they get a free ride that year (or years) on that tax. Companies & individuals making profits can pick up that tab.

BTW, taking that unnecessary cost off of the company's back allows them to look at growing their business with the money saved. R&D, new plants & equipment, more training of employees, etc. Gee, that sure looks like a socialist talking, doesn't it? Grow the business and more profits (and jobs) follow.

All available if you shift that unnecessary cost off the employers back and move it to a tax based on income. Not really hard to understand for the non-conservative.


User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 969 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

No he should not, Romney does not either:

"...a pledge Romney made during an interview in July, when he told ABC News he would not pay more in taxes "than are legally due and, frankly, if I had paid more than are legally due I don't think I'd be qualified to become president. I'd think people would want me to follow the law and pay only what the tax code requires."

Simple really....

Unlike the rest of us that pay to LOWER our rates, this businessman pays to RAISE his rate.....

Yeah, go ahead and give him the keys to the treasury....



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
I believe he took Poli Sci in college and he did serve a term as governor of California.

I haven't seen Romney's transcripts, but I imagine there was a class or two of politics in there.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Basically, though, he just had the good luck to follow Carter.

The Democrats should wake up each morning and thank God that there isn't anyone remotely like Ronald Reagan out there, otherwise this wouldn't be a contest.

Carter is also the reason why all of the "Obama is the worst president ever" crowd will always be wrong.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Ike was an exceptional administrator, How many times in his younger years did he lead troops on the battlefield?

Exactly zero. Eisenhower didn't do much leading of anyone anywhere until he was a general and his previous career was spent coaching football and driving trucks, among other things.

Certainly nothing in there that would qualify him to run an economy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Which Romney may well eliminate in order to reduce the top tax rte 20%

That would be political and economic suicide.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Starting with Defense?

Defense is the last thing that should be getting cut.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Think about it a minute. A company is able to grow profits because that unnecessary cost is off their back then they can pay a Medicare For All Tax.

All that great new profit is going to be eaten up by taxes to pay for free healthcare whether it comes from the corporate or personal level.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Gee, that sure looks like a socialist talking, doesn't it?

And the employees will pay their new, higher, tax bills with what magic raise?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
All available if you shift that unnecessary cost off the employers back and move it to a tax based on income. Not really hard to understand for the non-conservative.

It's easy to understand. It's also easy to understand why that's dumb. Mostly it's just that to work efficiently would require curtailing personal freedom, and I'm not about to do that.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3323 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
2: where did he lie? He paid more than 13%

and there you go: here is the lie:

Quoting bhill (Reply 66):
"...a pledge Romney made during an interview in July, when he told ABC News he would not pay more in taxes "than are legally due and, frankly, if I had paid more than are legally due I don't think I'd be qualified to become president. I'd think people would want me to follow the law and pay only what the tax code requires."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trans...ry?id=16881787&page=2#.UGINDlF5uuL



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1260 posts, RR: 3
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

No, no Republican should ever get elected. Obama's policies are at least bit more rational than any Republican would do.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

I think Romney is the ideal person to wring efficiency out of government on an operational level. In other words, if a general policy is put in place or spending cuts are decided, Romney might be my choice to implement them. But I think having him choose the policies himself or which spending to cut/increase would be more a continuation of Bush family governing and give America more war and more vehicles for the rich to send their money to China.

The reason sold to stockowners by corporate management for hiring outfits like Bain, McKinsey, Booz Allen etc. is often efficiency improvements. If Obama wins, he should hire Bain to restructure the defense department such that it delivers more bang for less buck, pun intended. I think its fair to say Romney has good experience in that kind of thing.

But I don't think a businessman running the entire government and setting policy like a global business is ideal, unless you want America to be in service of building China to superpower status even faster than it already does. Right now American businesses, the large ones anyway, have mostly given up on investing in America: should this be government policy as well?

Pu


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Sorry, I went to bed and just got back from work.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 47):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Having a rich dad is a huge leg up but if you're a worthless, lazy follower that can't even lead your own feet you won't be a successful anything.

I will agree with you there. Do you think that Obama has leadeship? or he got elected by being a lazy follower?

Of course I think the President has leadership. I think it would be impossible to get elected to President without any! (and to answer your possible next question of "well if every presidential candidate has leadership, then why is Romney bragging about his?") Well there are obviously varying degrees. Agree or not, doesn't change this fact: many (NOT ALL) see having business leadership as a good trait for the economy and being a successful business man shows a great deal of leadership. You are free to disagree, but I've seen ton of people who think that... THAT is why Romney brings up his business experience

Quoting mt99 (Reply 47):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Okay 1: he did some gimmicky political stunt (every politician in existence has done that)

And stunts like these show leadership? I would think that owning up to your actions is what a leader would do? Hw should have done his taxes with all deduction allowed by law and the stand behind them, That is leadership!

No but I don't think this stunt erases his years as a businessman. It's the kinda stuff politicians do. React the way you want. I personally look past the tax silliness (silliness IMO) to the real meat and potatoes, or his lack of them--positions on big issues

I don't view any of these candidates as black and white. Just because I disagree with you on an issue and end up defending Romney doesn't mean I like his positions or are gonna vote for him. I'm fairly certain I am not going to. On the flip side, I will defend the President when I see unfairness coming his way (most recently, his handling of the ME riots came under attack instantly by many on the right. I thought many of their arguments were unfair, BS, and only there because President Obama (D) is in the White House and not President __ (R) )



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3286 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
That would be political and economic suicide.

As long as Romney and his wealthy friends get that reduction they could give a rat's a$$ about the rest of us.

First, there would be plenty of money for all the propaganda that would be needed,

Then, of course, the GOP is working hard to take voters off the rolls if they appear to be a Democrat or Independent. Shutting down the ability to vote is important to the GOP as you will see this November.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
Defense is the last thing that should be getting cut.

Hate to say it, but even the Tooth Fairy knows that you aren't going to cut Social Security and Medicare without cutting Defense. Even with all the money available for propaganda you can't get over that reality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
All that great new profit is going to be eaten up by taxes to pay for free healthcare whether it comes from the corporate or personal level.

Not "al that great new profit". Just like today the taxes don't eat up "all that great profit". Actually I recently found out that corporations in the US pay out more for lobbying and campaign contribution than they do in income taxes.

As for medical costs, the costs are relatively the same. but there would be reductions in costs based on competition with a public option. We see that when we stopped paying the unnecessary 15% overcharge for Medicare Advantage.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
And the employees will pay their new, higher, tax bills with what magic raise?

If an employee wants core medical care then it is cheaper than what we have today. But when you go to the hospital you might get a 2nd year resident if that is all you need. And you might be put in an 8 or 12 bed ward if there is no medical reason for a private room. That IS far less expensive than today and more effective than what we have today.

Now, if you want the doctor of your choice and a private room then, like other programs, there could be private supplement. Costs a fraction of the costs we see today.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
It's also easy to understand why that's dumb.

You believe it is dumb to take a huge, unnecessary cost out of the budgeting process - where increased employment starts? I spent 8 years working in Australia and not one company there had that unnecessary burden. Today's companies face a harsh, unnecessary cost that drags their performance down. It is absolutely the dumbest approach to financing medical care in the civilized world.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
As long as Romney and his wealthy friends get that reduction they could give a rat's a$$ about the rest of us.

That's a pretty bold thing to say. Maybe his policies end up favoring the rich but to claim he only cares about rich people... well that just sounds very partisan! Sounds like the people that say the President only cares about illegals and minorities for votes yadaya



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 70):
But I don't think a businessman running the entire government and setting policy like a global business is ideal, unless you want America to be in service of building China to superpower status even faster than it already does.

China is building China's superpower status. They have a ton of people and as they slowly extricate themselves from Communism what's happening now was is inevitable.

Quoting pu (Reply 70):
Right now American businesses, the large ones anyway, have mostly given up on investing in America: should this be government policy as well?

That is government policy. America has too many taxes, too many regulations, and workers that are too expensive and too dumb. Much of that can be attributed, directly or indirectly, to government policy and could be fixed by government policy or lack of policy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
As long as Romney and his wealthy friends get that reduction they could give a rat's a$$ about the rest of us.

Do you really think Romney would knowingly collapse the housing market again?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
Then, of course, the GOP is working hard to take voters off the rolls if they appear to be a Democrat or Independent. Shutting down the ability to vote is important to the GOP as you will see this November.

Any reasonable person knows that voter ID laws aren't a vendetta, they're common sense. But, we should just go ahead and spend the nickel per person on a national ID card just to relieve people of their excuses.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
Hate to say it, but even the Tooth Fairy knows that you aren't going to cut Social Security and Medicare without cutting Defense. Even with all the money available for propaganda you can't get over that reality

Might be a necessary evil to slide meaningful improvements past idiot liberals.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
Actually I recently found out that corporations in the US pay out more for lobbying and campaign contribution than they do in income taxes.

You should remember that for when companies or people will be criminally prosecuted for not lobbying or making campaign contributions. Until then, it's not really relevant.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
You believe it is dumb to take a huge, unnecessary cost out of the budgeting process

It's dumb to set up a single payer system because to be efficient it must infringe on personal freedom far too much. It would be great in a perfect world, but in the real world people eat, drink, or smoke themselves into all sorts of expensive medical conditions I don't want to be forced to pay for.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Any reasonable person knows that voter ID laws aren't a vendetta, they're common sense.

They're the opposite of common sense, as has been shown many times in many threads. Solving a non-existent problem by throwing money at it is ludicrous, especially when it hands so much power to the state.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
But, we should just go ahead and spend the nickel per person on a national ID card just to relieve people of their excuses.

A nickel per person? Good luck with that RFP. Indiana paid $13 per ID.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 69):

No, no Republican should ever get elected.

Ike was OK. Nixon was OK in a lot of areas, but let the yahoos close to him screwed up his Presidency.

Like it or not, Nixon was one of the smartest Presidents we have ever had. Especially on the International areas. He also was a major opportunity for health care reform - until the buglers blew his Presidency.

Reagan? The Holy Grail these days, which is a massive overstatement.

Bush I was exceptional during the ME War I, but the conservatives did him in for all other areas. Guys like Rush screaming at him gave the election to Clinton.

And then we have W.

I actually believe that W might have been a decent President if he would have gone with a solid choice for VP. Powell would have been good and we would not have invaded Iraq. W also needed a decent SecDef and some moderates advising him. Unfortunately the Conservatives went wild around him and look where we ended up.

Out of that group I could vote for Ike, Nixon, and Bush I in 2012 (assuming, of course, their age when first elected). Romney doesn't come close to those three IMO.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
That is government policy. America has too many taxes, too many regulations, and workers that are too expensive and too dumb. Much of that can be attributed, directly or indirectly, to government policy and could be fixed by government policy or lack of policy.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Do you really think Romney would knowingly collapse the housing market again?

You really believe that Romney would pass up a chance for a 20% tax cut for him & his friends?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Any reasonable person knows that voter ID laws aren't a vendetta, they're common sense.

Any reasonable person knows that this is an effort to reduce the number of black and brown people from voting. Some states have already had the courts shut down that attack on democracy. This is a white, conservative effort to keep "those people" from the voter booth.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Might be a necessary evil to slide meaningful improvements past idiot liberals.

Idiot liberals? Looks to me that it was a conservative administration that invaded Iraq for those WMDs. Remember? And it was a COnservative Administration that left the country in The Great Recession. Conservative Phuck Ups, not Liberals.

You need to give some though before you use the word "idiot". Just because you Mommy & Daddy may have a lot of money from what I can tell your chances of growing that wealth through sound judgement is minimal. You may well need Medicare and Social Security than many moderates and liberals.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
It's dumb to set up a single payer system because to be efficient it must infringe on personal freedom far too much.

More right wing crap totally unrelated to reality. Look around and you'll see that universal care is normally for core health care (which outperforms our current system) and there are private policies (at a fraction of US costs) that are also available for those who want to pay for it.

The harsh reality is that if you have a major problem like a heart attack you go to the hospital under all systems. You "may" have a choice of doctors, but basically you get the doctor who is on call that day, or night. Same with a major trauma - you go to the closes hospital in an ambulance and get they doctors on call. Surgeons & bone docs or oral surgeons, etc. You really believe you will waste time figuring out who is the best doctor for you? If you are that stupid you had better hope he's on call that night.

Personal freedom in medicine generally focuses on a decision to use the pill. Or on having an abortion - and we know the Holy Rollin Conservatives don't want you to have that personal freedom under any circumstances.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
You really believe that Romney would pass up a chance for a 20% tax cut for him & his friends?

Considering the cost, I think he would. Cutting the interest deduction, unless moving to an entirely new scheme like Fair Tax, would be suicidal.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Any reasonable person knows that this is an effort to reduce the number of black and brown people from voting. Some states have already had the courts shut down that attack on democracy. This is a white, conservative effort to keep "those people" from the voter booth.

How easy does voting need to be before it's easy enough? Hell, make it like the census and send someone to my door. I don't care to stand in line down at the legion hall.

When you have a process that depends on participation by qualified people, asking people to prove that they are who they say they are isn't unreasonable.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Looks to me that it was a conservative administration that invaded Iraq for those WMDs. Remember?

There's your defense cuts right there. End the war and there are fewer bills to pay.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Just because you Mommy & Daddy may have a lot of money

They don't, I assure you, but do just fine because they do not live beyond their means and manage their finances intelligently. All the crap about people on middle class (or less) incomes not being able to save or invest is thoroughly debunked by my parents and people like them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Personal freedom in medicine generally focuses on a decision to use the pill.

What I'm talking about is the government having to control the inputs since they will be responsible for results. Being fat is expensive. Being a smoker is expensive. And being an alcoholic is expensive. So because of all of that the government will have no choice but to attempt to punish people who engage in such behaviors lest you and I find ourselves on the hook for quarter ton dudes at Golden Corral getting diabetes and having heart attacks.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Quoting aa757first (Reply 45):
It is when most people consider only the Republican or Democratic candidate. The only other option is to not vote.

No, the option is to look at what each candidate is proposing. Obama is not proposing to fail, of course. Romney is proposing what ? I don't know. But what the voter has to consider is not only the past but also the future, and he has to find good propositions from Romney, or else he'll vote Obama even if he think he failed, because at least he knows him.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 69):

No, no Republican should ever get elected.

Ike was OK. Nixon was OK in a lot of areas, but let the yahoos close to him screwed up his Presidency.

Like it or not, Nixon was one of the smartest Presidents we have ever had. Especially on the International areas. He also was a major opportunity for health care reform - until the buglers blew his Presidency.

Reagan? The Holy Grail these days, which is a massive overstatement.

Bush I was exceptional during the ME War I, but the conservatives did him in for all other areas. Guys like Rush screaming at him gave the election to Clinton.

And then we have W.

I actually believe that W might have been a decent President if he would have gone with a solid choice for VP. Powell would have been good and we would not have invaded Iraq. W also needed a decent SecDef and some moderates advising him. Unfortunately the Conservatives went wild around him and look where we ended up.

Out of that group I could vote for Ike, Nixon, and Bush I in 2012 (assuming, of course, their age when first elected). Romney doesn't come close to those three IMO.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79):

Out of that group I could vote for .. Nixon.... in 2012

Not after you've taken a good listen to the now publicly available chat between Nixon and Edgar Kaiser (yes, of Kaiser Permanente Healthcare). You may rethink that thought..

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):

People like to over think this election and why people are voting for Romney. Many on the other side come up with crazy things. I am around a lot of Romney supporters and they are simple people like you and me (even foreigners...) they want a good economy. They just don't agree on which candidate will do a better job. Nothing radical or anything

thats fine and its the main concern that everyone has right now but Romney said in that video that if he was elected the economy would magically get better...now how is that possible? Its rediculous that the GOP and the right wingers dont recognize how bad our economy was when Obama came into office due to the policies of G.W Bush. Instead of helping, they just decided to block Obama on everything.


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
When you have a process that depends on participation by qualified people, asking people to prove that they are who they say they are isn't unreasonable.

but this is specifically targeted at minorities who have already proven that they say who they are.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 81):
thats fine and its the main concern that everyone has right now but Romney said in that video that if he was elected the economy would magically get better...now how is that possible?

there's more to it than that but yes, he is extremely vague. You gotta realize though there are a ton of people that think the President is doing a horrible job and even a mediocre president would do better

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 81):
Its rediculous that the GOP and the right wingers dont recognize how bad our economy was when Obama came into office due to the policies of G.W Bush.

No one is denying that. For one, they put most the blame on past policies of the Democrats. Who's right, who's wrong? We'll never know, honestly. And the general theme on the right is that recovery is not coming quickly enough and the deficit is rising too quickly... you cannot refute that because they are opinions.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 81):
Instead of helping, they just decided to block Obama on everything.

Conversely, many see the Democrat controlled senate as shooting down everything the Republicans come up with.


I'm not defending any of these positions ^^ merely explaining them. I see these opinions, I'm surrounded by these opinions, and I came from them. But the left is coming at it from the complete wrong way. Republicans are not a bunch of irrational people... they are just like you and me, they just have had a lifetime of different thought. Once you realize that, you can analyze what they say, respect their opinions, and debate from there. Much of what I see on here is "no you're wrong you're a nut you are against minorities/women/poor/illegals/etc." Well, maybe that's the opinion you form, but confronting someone like that will get you no where.

Just my 2c. Not saying I'm any more right than anyone else, I've just seen (and see) these people all my life. I held most of these positions only up to a few years ago. I wasn't an ignorant idiot, I just saw things differently (not saying you think anyone's ignorant, I'm just speaking about many on this board in general.) And it goes both ways, of course.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
How easy does voting need to be before it's easy enough?

We have had a lot of elections where things went fairly well - except for Florida's hanging chads.

What is on the line right now is access to the vote for non-whites, old folks, people with funny names.

There is a huge effort going on to block "those people" from voting. It is as obscene as the "White Only" bathrooms and water fountains in the 50's.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
End the war and there are fewer bills to pay.

Well, Obama has ended one, working on the other and has been taking care of terrorist leadership in a manner that is far more efficient than W ever managed.

But there will be long term costs associated with W's Folly in Iraq. Start with taking care of the veterans, then add in replenishment of various supplies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
What I'm talking about is the government having to control the inputs since they will be responsible for results.

We already have sin taxes that can help pay the costs of medical conditions caused by use. So toss in sugar and other foods that lead to diabetes. Raise a tax sufficient to pay for medical care caused by the products.

But you do need to address the issue of personal freedom as it relates to women's health. It's difficult to be for personal freedom while pushing hard to control women's health - including vaginal probes.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 81):
thats fine and its the main concern that everyone has right now but Romney said in that video that if he was elected the economy would magically get better...now how is that possible?

Fairy Dust   


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 84):
What is on the line right now is access to the vote for non-whites, old folks, people with funny names.

Can those people not get drivers' licenses or IDs?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 84):
We already have sin taxes that can help pay the costs of medical conditions caused by use. So toss in sugar and other foods that lead to diabetes. Raise a tax sufficient to pay for medical care caused by the products.

I don't want the sin taxes. It's none of the government's business what I eat or drink and as a result I'll take responsibility for what I eat or drink. Sin taxes are an unconscionable breach of personal freedom.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Could Romney run American Airlines?

The way AA has been ran I could probably run it better
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
Then, of course, the GOP is working hard to take voters off the rolls if they appear to be a Democrat or Independent. Shutting down the ability to vote is important to the GOP as you will see this November.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Any reasonable person knows that this is an effort to reduce the number of black and brown people from voting. Some states have already had the courts shut down that attack on democracy. This is a white, conservative effort to keep "those people" from the voter booth.

Not this nonsense again.
The Law of the Land aka Supreme Court has already decided this issue. The courts that struck down those laws will be overturned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_v._Marion_County_Election_Board

It is ridiculously easy to register to vote. http://election.dos.state.fl.us/vote...istration/voter-reg.shtml#voterApp
It is harder to apply for a credit card. Anyway not having to show ID or complaining about showing ID is crazy IMO. I know we will disagree on this but really how often do we show ID. How easy is it to get an ID. Maybe I have a different mind set living in Florida where I have always showed ID and have never thought twice about. We also have plenty of voter fraud down here.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
This is a white, conservative effort to keep "those people" from the voter booth.

I am not "white" I believe in voter ID laws, so do my Hispanic Grandparents, Hispanic Mother, and most other Hispanics I know in South Florida which are Republicans. Why the generalization? Only a Democrat could get away with that.
If a Republican makes a racial generalization about the other party they are being racist. A Democrat does it, its "a okay."

Just a side note: Watching Spanish TV there are adds to register to vote. They just say register anyone can do it. Does not say anything about being a citizen or not. I can guarantee you there are U.S. Residents voting in this election, of course they also have drivers license so ID laws do not mean much.
Honestly absentee ballots are were the real fraud happens. Also in 2008 I personally witness a "non-partisan" group throw out voter registrations from naturalization services. All those applications thrown out had one thing in common. The R was checked not the D or I. We on the "other side" had no problem what so ever registering a D.
Again maybe my 100% pro voter ID law comes from living in Florida. But I see nothing wrong with it and the Supreme Court agrees with me.

Quoting pu (Reply 70):
American businesses, the large ones anyway, have mostly given up on investing in America: should this be government policy as well?

Exactly, and it continues to happen. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone in the White House that understands why they are doing this.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Out of that group I could vote for Ike, Nixon, and Bush I in 2012 (assuming, of course, their age when first elected). Romney doesn't come close to those three IMO.

I agree that Romney doesn't come close minus Nixon add in Regan.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
And then we have W.

I agree 100% on your analysis of Bush. I also think as time goes by he will be seen more favorably. Not as a great or even good president by any means but not as low as people see him now.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
You really believe that Romney would pass up a chance for a 20% tax cut for him & his friends?

Do you honestly believe Romney will care about that if he is in the WH? Why would he? Romney is a man of great integrity. He cares about people and this country just like President Obama does and many others. He knows he is wealthy. He knows he could afford to pay more taxes but that is not how he believes the economy will get stronger.
Lets also keep this in mind. We could tax all the millionaires 100% and it would barely make a dent in the deficit. All Americans need to come to the realization that at some point if we really do want to pay off the debt besides for cutting spending taxes may have to go up on all incomes including the middle class who are the largest tax base.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
How easy does voting need to be before it's easy enough? Hell, make it like the census and send someone to my door. I don't care to stand in line down at the legion hall.

Exactly. We can register to vote online now.

Also as another side note:
I do believe Mitt is down in the polls but not as down as the major polls are showing. I personally have been hung up on during a poll because I was a Hispanic republican. It is also known that polls are being conducted by 2008 turnout numbers. Low republicans high Democrats. I think the numbers will even out a bit and the young vote will note show up in nearly the same numbers IMO. No where close. This is a closer race that many want people to believe. I also do not think Romney's campaign as been good at all. They better be ready to go on a spending frenzy in the next few days!

The debates should be interesting. I imagine we will have a thread for all four.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5576 posts, RR: 28
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
At this moment many people like the way Romney 'looks'

And that's different from Obama how?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 63):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):Funny. The government has no problem playing "businessman" when it comes to telling companies how THEY should function. Odd, since being a good tax collector doesn't translate to being a good businessman. Taking people's money is only one part of the job.
Somewhere in here there's a point, but I just can't seem to find it.

I'll explain. You suggest that being a good businessperson doesn't necessarily make someone a good president. I was just countering that with the notion that politicians somehow think they have exceptional business expertise, many of whom have never worked a civilian day in their lives. Get elected? Suddenly you're an expert on everything. The difference is that now you have the power to do something about it. That's when the real damage begins.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 50):people are tired of the poor job market and are looking for a change.
Have them call the "Job Creators" that received so much praise from Conservatives.

Uh, nice attitude. Guess what? Many of them are going to in November.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
750,000 jobs lost each MONTH. How hard is that for you to understand?

??? I think you have a hard time not being argumentative.

My comment goes back to yours in Reply 19 where you were discussing how things are getting better. I am just pointing out that a LOT of people have simply given up on looking for work - hardly a testament to a strengthening economy. I didn't say anything one way or another about Obama or Bush - just what the people I am seeing and meeting are doing and going through.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
I guess you believe that Romney is good friends with the Job Fairy and can make it all better with his secret economic plan.

??? Obama's primary weakness is the economy. I don't care who's fault it is, people are looking for that to change. Whether Romney can do that or not isn't the point to them, it's the fact that he appears to be pro-business which in turn implies pro-jobs.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65):
Actually I saw a lot of business activity on those roads. Enough to impress me. Laugh all you want, it would have been relatively empty Interstates that would have been a concern. But, of course, nothing disappoints a Republican more than to hear of economic improvements during Obama's Administration.

I'm not laughing at the activity. I love it. The more trains the better, AFAIK. I just think that, in an effort to boost Obama in this thread, you have inadvertantly given new meaning to the phrase "anecdotal evidence". lol

I think the talking heads on the radio clearly are going to point out any weakness that they can find to show Obama as a failed president. Newsflash Ken: I'm not on the radio and I don't have an agenda. I run a business and am thankful that things have mildly improved. But the job market hasn't in the way that is being portrayed on the left.

Quoting bhill (Reply 66):
Unlike the rest of us that pay to LOWER our rates, this businessman pays to RAISE his rate.....

To be fair, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason he did that was because he stated previously what he expected to pay and so felt compelled to pay that. I don't think he'd make it a practice outside of an election and I don't think he expects anyone else to do the same. But he paid. Feel free to hang your hat on that if you want to - most people would just be thankful to have the extra million+ plus in the general fund.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
And the employees will pay their new, higher, tax bills with what magic raise?

Well, in Washignton State we simply keep raising the minimum wage. Not sure why a teenager flipping burgers needs to be making over $9 an hour, but hey, if it makes people feel better about themselves, fine. In the meantime, those wages come from the same pool of money, so we see less employees or people working less hours in order for the business to maintain it's profit margins.

And those ever increasing minimum wages are added to the ever increasing cost of ...well, virtually everything. Yet we scold the businessman for wanting to make a living and build his own wealth.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
I don't view any of these candidates as black and white. Just because I disagree with you on an issue and end up defending Romney doesn't mean I like his positions or are gonna vote for him. I'm fairly certain I am not going to. On the flip side, I will defend the President when I see unfairness coming his way (most recently, his handling of the ME riots came under attack instantly by many on the right. I thought many of their arguments were unfair, BS, and only there because President Obama (D) is in the White House and not President __ (R) )

Great post.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72):
As long as Romney and his wealthy friends get that reduction they could give a rat's a$$ about the rest of us.

You are a fool. You sound like the far right fools who say they same types of things about Obama.

Ya, I know. "Show me the tax returns!" Whatevrz....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Any reasonable person knows that voter ID laws aren't a vendetta, they're common sense.

Word.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
I actually believe that W might have been a decent President if he would have gone with a solid choice for VP. Powell would have been good and we would not have invaded Iraq. W also needed a decent SecDef and some moderates advising him.

In other words, if he was a Democrat. lol

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 76):
Any reasonable person knows that this is an effort to reduce the number of black and brown people from voting. Some states have already had the courts shut down that attack on democracy. This is a white, conservative effort to keep "those people" from the voter booth.

I feel reasonably comfortable saying that this is a very racist statement. I know, I know. Being racist towards white people is the "in" thing, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that this is the most hateful, racist, disrespectful comment in this thread. It is not reasonable in any way, whether you agree or not. Despite how you may feel personally, myself as a white person who is also conservative am somehow able to get up every morning and love my fellow neighbor regardless of their color. I resent that I should even have to defend myself as a "white conservative" to you or anyone, just like any other race being called out based on the color of their skin.

And you call yourself a liberal? Wow...

The fact of the matter is, it has nothing - NOTHING - to do with skin color. It has to do with the feeling by many that people are just pouring into our country and taking advantage of what this country has to offer wihtout going through the proper processes. On top of that, we are not supposed to ask for ID because .... why again? How do we know that I am not actually a Russian national that wants to vote for Obama so that Putin can have a friend in the White House? It doesn't matter if I'm white or brown or black or whatever. It matters if I'm a citizen. Enough poeple have died defending our citizenship that it seems reasonable to exclude those who are not one.

Seriously, with this one statement - which you'll vigorously defend - I think you've lost any credibility (at least in my mindY of having any sort of "reasonable" dialogue.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
They don't, I assure you, but do just fine because they do not live beyond their means and manage their finances intelligently. All the crap about people on middle class (or less) incomes not being able to save or invest is thoroughly debunked by my parents and people like them.

How un-American. Hopefully, though, one day it will be the new norm all over again.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
So because of all of that the government will have no choice but to attempt to punish people who engage in such behaviors

Yep. They can't help themselves. I don't care who's in power - D, R, L, X - they can't help themselves.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 81):
thats fine and its the main concern that everyone has right now but Romney said in that video that if he was elected the economy would magically get better...now how is that possible? Its rediculous that the GOP and the right wingers dont recognize how bad our economy was when Obama came into office due to the policies of G.W Bush. Instead of helping, they just decided to block Obama on everything.

Seriously? "Magically get better"? Well, I seem to remember a certain BHO who offered much the same promises back in 2008. My thought at the time: How the hell would anyome be able to turn us around and keep us from hitting 10 percent unemployment, but more power to him for having that "magic". Except, he didn't, but as always happens in an election, those promises and expectations that he presented then are now excused because he's "our guy". Again, it happens every time - D or R - so there's no surprise there. I just think it'd be refreshing for someone to call THEIR guy out on it more.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
there's more to it than that but yes, he is extremely vague. You gotta realize though there are a ton of people that think the President is doing a horrible job and even a mediocre president would do better

He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by remaing quiet on this topic. He has the business background that gives him at least surface credibility, and with the last four years being so tough, many people will blame the incumbent for their woes. Just like Obama can just let Romney stick his foot in it on things, Romney can let Obama try to explain why he deserves control over the economy for another four years.

It's politics.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
I'm not defending any of these positions ^^ merely explaining them. I see these opinions, I'm surrounded by these opinions, and I came from them. But the left is coming at it from the complete wrong way. Republicans are not a bunch of irrational people... they are just like you and me, they just have had a lifetime of different thought. Once you realize that, you can analyze what they say, respect their opinions, and debate from there. Much of what I see on here is "no you're wrong you're a nut you are against minorities/women/poor/illegals/etc." Well, maybe that's the opinion you form, but confronting someone like that will get you no where.

Another great post.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 84):
We already have sin taxes that can help pay the costs of medical conditions caused by use. So toss in sugar and other foods that lead to diabetes. Raise a tax sufficient to pay for medical care caused by the products.

Yes, that's what we want. Taxes raised on all the behaviors that might cost the government more. Well, I've got an idea. Why not a national DNA testing law that requires all newborns to be analyzed. We already know that some people can eat sugar by the scoopful all their lives and live to be very old, while others die early even though they ate well. Instead of focusing just on eating, why not focus on the whole darn enchilada. Risk of cancer in your family history? $$ Enlarged heart? $$$ Family history of Heart Disease? $$$$$ And on and on and on. Maybe they'll discover some hidden diesease or genetic abnormality that may cause problems later in life. $$$$$$$

Sounds better than "You can't buy large sodas in my town."

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
If a Republican makes a racial generalization about the other party they are being racist. A Democrat does it, its "a okay."

It's nauseating, but what's scary is that they don't see it that way. Anymore, if you are American, you are stupid. If you are a white American, you are a greedy bastard. If you are white American Christian, you are the spawn of satan.

Lovely for those of us who truly try to be good to the people in our jobs and communities, who pay our taxes, who stay out of trouble, who try to mentor others when possible to lift them out of their situation, and who try to do what's right to the extent possible as imperfect beings. And I don't think that's a small number of people.

I think I need to form a start-up company, take it public, cash out, and buy an island. My luck, it would be the home of the 2016 Democrtic National Convention.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
Romney is a man of great integrity

then why did he say he didnt care about 47% of people?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
It's nauseating, but what's scary is that they don't see it that way. Anymore, if you are American, you are stupid. If you are a white American, you are a greedy bastard. If you are white American Christian, you are the spawn of satan.

when did the Democrats ever espouse this?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
Lovely for those of us who truly try to be good to the people in our jobs and communities, who pay our taxes, who stay out of trouble, who try to mentor others when possible to lift them out of their situation, and who try to do what's right to the extent possible as imperfect beings. And I don't think that's a small number of people.

I dont think that the Dems are against these people (i would be one of them) and in fact are helping these people, why do you think otherwise?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 88):
then why did he say he didnt care about 47% of people?

If you think what he meant by saying "he does not care about the 47%" means he does not care about them as people and he would not care about them if he was President it is because of one of two things.
1. You are being successfully brainwashed by the Obama Camp or
2. You just do not understand the situation he was in and political campaigns in general.

He statement was about VOTES and nothing else. He should not have been talking about campaign strategy, politicians get in trouble for that just like right there. Of course he did not know he was being illegally recorded .

He was telling his donors who they are going to spend money on, the people he will get to vote for him. It was a stupid statement and untrue also because plenty of those 47% will vote for him, probably not the majority but plenty. But this was just campaign talk. I see the ridiculous commercial the Dems put out using the clip only showing "I dont care about those people"
And the Dems complained about Republicans using "you didn't build that" out of context! Its funny how politics work.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 89):
"I dont care about those people"
And the Dems complained about Republicans using "you didn't build that" out of context! Its funny how politics work

Yeah, but the Republican's built a whole convention out of a misquote. What romney put out there was not misquoted, It was what Romney said and meant to say in that environment. The fact that it was $50,000 a plate dinner where he said it also highlights to a lot of folks that if he is pandering that hard to those folks, that the claims made by the opposition about his tax plans, may not be far from the truth. Romney did a ton of damage to himself with this speech. Obama did not damange, it was only the GOP trying to grasp onto a slogan to run with since they had nothing.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):
Yeah, but the Republican's built a whole convention out of a misquote.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):
. What romney put out there was not misquoted,

This makes no sense. If you agree that "you did not build that" was a misquote how can you think the way Obama's camp is using 47% is not a misquote? Lets be normal people here and not just see this from only your side. He was talking about votes and nothing else. They are setting it up to make it look like Romney does not care about them as all, as people or and he will not look out for their best interest if he won.
So I said what Romeny meant with 47% what in your opinion did President Obama mean with his "you didn't build that" statement?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):
The fact that it was $50,000 a plate dinner where he said it also highlights to a lot of folks that if he is pandering that hard to those folks, that the claims made by the opposition about his tax plans, may not be far from the truth.

I am sure we would all love what President Obama says at his $50k dinners too.
Clinging to their guns and religion that was perfectly fine to say because he is a Democrat.
Now imagine this!
Imagine if Mitt said: "I don't get those people in New York and California all they do is cling to their gay marriage and abortion".
He would probably have to drop out of the election. The double standard in politics from the mainstream media and Democrats is ridiculous.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3086 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
This makes no sense. If you agree that "you did not build that" was a misquote how can you think the way Obama's camp is using 47% is not a misquote

Let me put the quote in front of you and let you tell me it is a misquote. His not not talking about just voters here.

"The Quote "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it -- that that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. ... These are people who pay no income tax. ... [M]y job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.":

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...ecking-romneys-47-percent-comment/

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
what in your opinion did President Obama mean with his "you didn't build that" statement?

Here is a larger piece of Obama's speech

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.
"

http://factcheck.org/2012/07/you-didnt-build-that-uncut-and-unedited/

So yes, Obama was misqouted iun that his small quote was taken out of context of what was totally said. Whereas Mitt's quote was owned and embraced as a slander to many folks Republican and Democrat that do not pay taxes.

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
Clinging to their guns and religion that was perfectly fine to say because he is a Democrat

And yet Ryan has owned this statement as true.  
Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
Imagine if Mitt said: "I don't get those people in New York and California all they do is cling to their gay marriage and abortion".
He would probably have to drop out of the election. The double standard in politics from the mainstream media and Democrats is ridiculous.

This isn't about a double standard though. This is about the fact that Mitt, very eroneously, basically wrote of a lot of Guns and Religion folks along a lot of other people with his statement. Mitt attacked his own base with this statement on taxes. It isn't as if the whole GOP is exactly Cozy with Mitt, and he needs every vote he can get.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3085 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
I'll explain. You suggest that being a good businessperson doesn't necessarily make someone a good president. I was just countering that with the notion that politicians somehow think they have exceptional business expertise, many of whom have never worked a civilian day in their lives. Get elected? Suddenly you're an expert on everything. The difference is that now you have the power to do something about it. That's when the real damage begins.

Well, that's true. However a good politician knows to hire good advisors on different subjects to explain these things to him, while he takes a more overarching view. Somebody earlier (too lazy to find it- sorry!) opined that Mitt Romney would make an excellent business advisor to the president rather than being president himself, and I'd have to agree.

Whether the current administration has hired good advisors (and listened to them) is debatable, but I think that's the ideal state of affairs, rather than having a specialist President.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85):
Can those people not get drivers' licenses or IDs?

If you don't know how to drive and don't have the means to own a car then why would you get a license. I don't know what other photo ID you get in America outside of that which is necessary, some states have state ID but there is no federal ID.

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
Clinging to their guns and religion that was perfectly fine to say because he is a Democrat.

Obama got heat for that statement and lost the Pennsylvania primary to Hillary by double digits making the process go on longer in 2008 than it probably had to.

It was fair game to use it against him in the election campaign then but John McCain didn't choose to.

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
Imagine if Mitt said: "I don't get those people in New York and California all they do is cling to their gay marriage and abortion".
He would probably have to drop out of the election. The double standard in politics from the mainstream media and Democrats is ridiculous.

I don't think so, as those are states he isn't winning and the only way he is forced to drop out is if this happened pre-convention and the GOP delegates decided to not nominate him.

Todd Akin's comments were worse than anything Obama said in 2008 and there is a good chance he makes a comeback and possibly wins because there will not be a lot of split ballots in Missouri and Claire McCaskill is not very popular.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85):
Can those people not get drivers' licenses or IDs?

If they have their birth certificate - and many citizens don't. So they have to spend $20 or so to get that certificate in order to get the photo ID. Not an easy thing for the poor and the elderly.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85):
I don't want the sin taxes.

Then don't sin and you won't pay them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85):
It's none of the government's business what I eat or drink and as a result I'll take responsibility for what I eat or drink.

The government isn't that interested in you as an individual. But it has a legitimate interest in the group of individuals who smoke as there will be taxpayer dollars needed to help care for them. Those tax dollars first need to come from a tax on the products that cause the medical issues.

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
It is ridiculously easy to register to vote

After you find your birth certificate (wonder how easy that is for someone who was adopted), or pay for that certificate, go somewhere to get that photo ID, etc.

And then we have situations where people like that 90+ year old WW II vet was kicked off the rolls in Florida in a Republican effort to restrict voting.

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
Why the generalization?

Because we have seen strong efforts in a lot of GOP states. Different approaches, but the same goal or reducing non-WASP votes. Voting hours, throwing people off the rolls,

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
Honestly absentee ballots are were the real fraud happens.

Are they? Lots of fraud in the old folks homes, overseas military bases, citizens who travel a lot on business, etc.

Reality is that absentee ballot fraud would be too expensive to do in volume.

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
I agree that Romney doesn't come close minus Nixon add in Regan.

I kept Nixon in because I believe he was the most intelligent Presidents we have had. I left Reagan of because I believe he was the most intellectual lazy President we have had.

Quoting flymia (Reply 86):
Do you honestly believe Romney will care about that if he is in the WH?

Of course he will. He will still make an average of $20 million every one of his years in office and he has a lot of friends who have made (or are making) big time contributions to get that 20% reduction.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
I think you have a hard time not being argumentative.

Not really - I just have strong, but moderate, beliefs. I still get really mad at the invasion of Iraq, the games played in the financial sector, the massive loss of jobs as the Great Recession was build under W & Dick.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
I am just pointing out that a LOT of people have simply given up on looking for work

That, unfortunately, has been going on for generations when difficult economic times hit. We have not had a recession or "economic downturn" without people giving up.

There is one big difference this time around that is, IMO, negatively impacting employment. The Internet. The unemployed gin up a resume and send it out to hundreds of companies - right along with millions of other unemployed people.

And companies are minimizing the face to face applicants, telling them to apply on the internet.

The internet has, unfortunately, separated applicants and employers - outside of some "in demand" positions.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
it's the fact that he appears to be pro-business which in turn implies pro-jobs.

It is pretty hard ton say Obama is anti-business after the efforts he put into helping GM & Chrysler, the push he has made into "alternative energy" and the temporary reductions he has made in FICA taxes.

Actually, wasn't Romney happy to let GM & Chrysler go into liquidation if some theoretical market said it should? I consider Romney a far greater danger to small & medium size businesses than Obama - by a wide margin.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
Well, in Washignton State we simply keep raising the minimum wage. Not sure why a teenager flipping burgers needs to be making over $9 an hour, but hey, if it makes people feel better about themselves, fine. In the meantime, those wages come from the same pool of money, so we see less employees or people working less hours in order for the business to maintain it's profit margins.

My bet is that $9 an hour is below the poverty level, meaning that corporate welfare kicks in. Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc.

Until we have a minimum wage above that poverty level you can keep paying that extra tax ro pay for corporate welfare.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
And those ever increasing minimum wages are added to the ever increasing cost of ...well, virtually everything. Yet we scold the businessman for wanting to make a living and build his own wealth.

That hamburger the kid flipped probably costs an extra 5¢ if we get rid of corporate welfare.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
You are a fool.

You really believe that the top 1% of the top 1% gives a rat's a$$ about the middle class?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...ff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html?hpid=z2

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...ff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html?hpid=z2

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
In other words, if he was a Democrat. lol

Nope. If he had selected responsible people to be around him. He could have avoided the Unnecessary War because of mythical WMDs. and might have performed far better without the garbage surrounding him.

BTW, my position on that Ego War is not because of political beliefs, but because I served during the Vietnam War and have a low level of tolerance for politicians who abuse military personnel (like W's Administration did) and those who send our troops into harm without any reason outside of oil or ego.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
I feel reasonably comfortable saying that this is a very racist statement.

Just as I feel comfortable in believing that this sudden surge in state level Republican politicians pushing hard to make it more difficult for the non-WASP to vote. Building barriers to getting on the rolls and shortening the voting times. How many "Republican States" have working hard to limit the vote in the past few years.

There is a difference between blunt reality and racism. Just like when I was a kid in Houston and there was a Poll Tax. The GOP is putting up barriers and, fortunately, the Courts are knocking them down.

Maybe you should ask yourself WHY there is this surge in GOP efforts to set up barriers and limit voting opportunities.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 64):
) Democrats like business people just as much as Republicans, the difference is that they object to business people abusing their workers, the environment, the community just to make $$$ for themselves

Like the media darlings,APPLE? Right. Facebook executive denounces his citizenship? Right.

Double standards are very clear and Obama has made it main issue of Romney's taxes and wealth issue deflecting the failures of his 1st term of lies,lies and lies. Obama needs to start talking about the PEOPLE'S money then Romney's.But why do the democrats have a problem admitting to they're "richness' and even "religion" in they're party?

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 64):
2) Meg and Carly were just bad candidates full stop

No,they would have balance the budgets.A blue state doesn't want to hear that.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 64):
3) The deficit is due to lower tax receipts due to a bad domestic and international economy + the losses of jobs across the board. Romney or Cain would have faced the same deficits. This has nothing to do with Obama and to make myself totally clear, The president has very little power to control either the domestic or the international economy.

But so did Bush to Obama.And this issue was a primary issue in 2008.How is it the Obama is allowed a free ride of accountability of another broken promise from 2008 to "decrease" the deficit.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 49):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):
Business people are hated by the democrats because they will cut, organize and downsize,

What a load of crap.

Really.So,you are admitting that democrats have wealthy CEO's,businesses,bankers and Wall St.investors? Because up to now,the democrats have always had trouble admitting they're "richness" doesn't even exist.So,both sides are even scale,is that right?So get off Romney's back and GET to the REAL issues



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 94):

If you don't know how to drive and don't have the means to own a car then why would you get a license


I say the way to do this is let the Republicans have their voter ID requirements, but balance the burden that places on some people by making it easier to physically vote.

My solution: allow internet voting. The social security number determines voter eligibility and one vote allowed per eligible social security number.

Pu


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
Well, in Washignton State we simply keep raising the minimum wage.

Some people talk about raising minimum wage like it's a magic bullet. Sure some people will get raises, sure, and others will get pink slips.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
So they have to spend $20 or so to get that certificate in order to get the photo ID. Not an easy thing for the poor and the elderly.

Which is why some states offer free IDs (and sometimes do not expire) for disabled, elderly, or homeless people.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
Then don't sin and you won't pay them.

Or don't have the sin taxes. It's a major breach of freedom for the government to pass judgment on what I eat or drink. People should be able to make those decisions without being punished.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
But it has a legitimate interest in the group of individuals who smoke as there will be taxpayer dollars needed to help care for them. Those tax dollars first need to come from a tax on the products that cause the medical issues.

Or do the smart thing and revise the system so that it won't cost tax dollars and there is no need to restrict people's freedom.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
After you find your birth certificate (wonder how easy that is for someone who was adopted), or pay for that certificate, go somewhere to get that photo ID, etc.

You also need to go somewhere to vote. How easy is easy enough?

Quoting pu (Reply 97):
My solution: allow internet voting.

That would be a good idea. But now you can cue liberals whining about how black/brown/old people don't have computers.

Quoting pu (Reply 97):
The social security number determines voter eligibility and one vote allowed per eligible social security number.

There might need to be a better system than that, because you'd need to determine that the person voting is the same person whose SSN is being used.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Or don't have the sin taxes. It's a major breach of freedom for the government to pass judgment on what I eat or drink. People should be able to make those decisions without being punished.

Sin Taxes exist due to their costs to the public. Intoxication, smoking and other items have serious effects on medicare and medicaid.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Or do the smart thing and revise the system so that it won't cost tax dollars and there is no need to restrict people's freedom.

Sure so the whino who drinks and gets liver cancer dies right? The GOP death panel. Tah dah

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
There might need to be a better system than that, because you'd need to determine that the person voting is the same person whose SSN is being used.

The Iphone 5 now has facial recognition technology. just have voting booths that recognize facial features.
Whalla.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
Sin Taxes exist due to their costs to the public. Intoxication, smoking and other items have serious effects on medicare and medicaid.

So, alter the system to remove most of the public costs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
So, alter the system to remove most of the public costs.

Sure. the fantasy land plan. Just tell me how you would do it . Especially for the poor and destitute.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 101):
Sure. the fantasy land plan. Just tell me how you would do it . Especially for the poor and destitute.

Throw the doors open and let healthcare be a business, just like food. People can buy what they can afford. Doctors would have incentive to reduce costs under market and insurance pressures.

Insurance would probably still exist, and be more divided. Some insurance plans would only be offered to relatively healthy people which could have lower premiums and a lower risk risk pool. Others would accept the fat, alcoholics, or smokers. People could pick whichever risk pools they want and could afford. The only bit of government regulation would be some accommodation for preexisting conditions. Emergency services would also have to be provided, but that's just one of the necessary costs of government.

Like food banks, I'm sure there would be free clinics and services for the poor, along with research and teaching institutions that may provide lower cost care.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2967 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):

So you are in an industry that collapses and you can no longer afford health insurance, then you find out you have bowel cancer, should those people be left to die?

Fred


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 103):
So you are in an industry that collapses and you can no longer afford health insurance, then you find out you have bowel cancer, should those people be left to die?

Unfortunately, yes, unless they find some low cost or care through a charity. Beats asking all of us to pay for the irresponsibility of others.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 96):
No,they would have balance the budgets.A blue state doesn't want to hear that.

Leaving aside the tedious tribal war you insist on fighting, are you really saying that Carly Fiorina is somebody you want running the most economically important state in the union? Meg Whitman you could make a case for, but Fiorina? Come on.....!



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 104):

Unfortunately, yes, unless they find some low cost or care through a charity.

And how is that good for ANY society? Would you feel the same if that person is you? What if it is one of your children.
I do read your posts here and there and I think that your line of thinking will change soon or at least move away from being part of a money making emotionless machine.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 104):
Beats asking all of us to pay for the irresponsibility of others.

Glad to see that the death of someone who can be saved would not get in the way of your "me me me" mantra.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 104):
Unfortunately, yes, unless they find some low cost or care through a charity. Beats asking all of us to pay for the irresponsibility of others.

What if that cancer is no fault of your own? Sometimes people get sick for no reason. Or sometimes they get old, which is just as risky insurance-wise.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2723 posts, RR: 8
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 103):
So you are in an industry that collapses and you can no longer afford health insurance,

How about making insurance affordable. the affordable health care act has just made insurance more expensive ensuring that people will not be able to afford. Instead of fixing the problem Obamacare made it worse.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 104):
Beats asking all of us to pay for the irresponsibility of others.

This was part of lowering the costs that they avoided. Because lowering the cost's was not their intention.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):
How about making insurance affordable. the affordable health care act has just made insurance more expensive ensuring that people will not be able to afford. Instead of fixing the problem Obamacare made it worse.

Healthcare was rising by double digits prior to Obama care, How is it rising more now.? Please show us the charts.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2928 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):
This was part of lowering the costs that they avoided. Because lowering the cost's was not their intention.

Yes silly, the intention is to keep healthcare in the hands of government, so it can manipulate the populace as puppets and tum everyone into gay abortionists, who shun Christianity while driving Chevy Volts...

Did i miss anything?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):
How about making insurance affordable. the affordable health care act has just made insurance more expensive ensuring that people will not be able to afford. Instead of fixing the problem Obamacare made it worse.

One thing that practically all Americans agree on is that they want cover for pre-existing conditions, and don't think it's fair that if, for example, their child gets leukemia, their insurance will be denied the next time it comes up for renewal despite the fact that the child may still be very sick. Do you agree with them on that?

Assuming you do, how would you propose to defray the extra cost of covering those people, if not via premium rises or an individual mandate?

Obamacare has many flaws, but any alternative IMO has to address this question.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2904 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):
How about making insurance affordable. the affordable health care act has just made insurance more expensive ensuring that people will not be able to afford. Instead of fixing the problem Obamacare made it worse.

I would love to but my shareholders will fire me if I do because they demand "x" return on their investment.

Signed,

The CEO of any health insurance company.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 111):
One thing that practically all Americans agree on is that they want cover for pre-existing conditions, and don't think it's fair that if, for example, their child gets leukemia, their insurance will be denied the next time it comes up for renewal despite the fact that the child may still be very sick. Do you agree with them on that?

Assuming you do, how would you propose to defray the extra cost of covering those people, if not via premium rises or an individual mandate?

   there is no other way to do the good things that are in the ACA without doing the things people don't like.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 106):
And how is that good for ANY society?

Getting sick is a problem. I'd prefer it not be made my problem when others get sick and, for that matter, not make it the problem of others when I get sick.

Quoting lewis (Reply 106):
I do read your posts here and there and I think that your line of thinking will change soon or at least move away from being part of a money making emotionless machine

I hope not. Emotion clouds judgment.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 107):
What if that cancer is no fault of your own? Sometimes people get sick for no reason

That's just one of those things that happens.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 107):
Or sometimes they get old, which is just as risky insurance-wise.

My car insurance company has no problem altering my premiums based on age.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
That's just one of those things that happens.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
I hope not. Emotion clouds judgment.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
Getting sick is a problem. I'd prefer it not be made my problem when others get sick and, for that matter, not make it the problem of others when I get sick.

Those are the views of a psychopath, wouldn't you say?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 89):
If you think what he meant by saying "he does not care about the 47%" means he does not care about them as people and he would not care about them if he was President it is because of one of two things.
1. You are being successfully brainwashed by the Obama Camp or
2. You just do not understand the situation he was in and political campaigns in general.

im referring to the part when he said those people depend on the government for food, shelter, medicines, etc...and then he went on to say i cant worry about those people. Now what does that look like to you? How would you feel if someone said that to you and you were part of that group...


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
Nope. If he had selected responsible people to be around him. He could have avoided the Unnecessary War because of mythical WMDs. and might have performed far better without the garbage surrounding him.

according to one of the books i read about the Bin Laden raid that talked about all the back history of the SEALs, apparently there was WMD in Iraq, but it just was swept under the rug by the media apparently. I am not a nor was a Bush supporter by any means but it is interesting.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 114):
Those are the views of a psychopath, wouldn't you say?

I wouldn't use that characterization, but I have never ever interacted with a person so devoid of emotion, its scary!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
Quoting lewis (Reply 106):
And how is that good for ANY society?

Getting sick is a problem. I'd prefer it not be made my problem when others get sick and, for that matter, not make it the problem of others when I get sick.

Depends. It will be your problem if the "sick problem" remains unsolved for a significant chunk of the population. Do you really dream of living in a country where the health of the population resembles that of a developing country? Would you like to live in a country where there is so much disease that you are afraid to walk outside without gloves and a mask?

There are some things that you cannot just monetize and cut.

I also noticed that you completely forgot to answer that - probably because it involves that "emotion" thing:

Quoting lewis (Reply 106):
Would you feel the same if that person is you? What if it is one of your children.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 117):
Do you really dream of living in a country where the health of the population resembles that of a developing country? Would you like to live in a country where there is so much disease that you are afraid to walk outside without gloves and a mask?

I doubt that would be a problem. There would still be access to medical care, you would just need to buy it or have insurance that pays for it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 117):
Would you feel the same if that person is you? What if it is one of your children.

That's a tough break. But there is no reason why that should become a burden for others.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):

I doubt that would be a problem. There would still be access to medical care, you would just need to buy it or have insurance that pays for it.

Well, healthcare costs are very high. Even a simple operation can cost thousands of dollars. As for health insurance, a lot of people cannot afford it, or can afford one that doesn't cover much. At some point we will have to accept that not all people can afford healthcare as it is. Survival of the richer??

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
That's a tough break. But there is no reason why that should become a burden for others.

It is the word "burden" that I object. We pool the risk based on the fact that not all of us are going to get cancer and not all of us will require treatments that cost thousands or millions of dollars. But if we ever do, we know this won't bankrupt us or kill us. I do not see this as a burden and I see more benefits to it than disadvantages. But then, I consider healthcare (at least in a basic form) something that should be given, not just a product.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):

Again I think living in Florida just makes me a bit more prone no matter my political views to be ok with showing a simple ID to vote.
See below:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/2...da-sends-election-departments.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...m-among-many-boleteros-in-florida/
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/05/us...idates-miami-mayoral-election.html

But this is by far my favorite:
http://www.examiner.com/article/cong...ate-from-florida-voted-twice-twice

We in Florida have problems and in a state that once decided an election by a little more than 500 votes every vote really does count.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
Republicans are not a bunch of irrational people... they are just like you and me, t



Todd Akin
Jim DeMint
Mitch McConnell
Jan Brewer
Rick Santorum
Michelle Bachmann
Sarah Palin
Mike Huckabee
Alan West
Rush Limbaugh (not a politician but more clout than any single politician you can think of)
..etc
These people are extremely irrational and nothing like anyone I know.

Why you buy the Romney brand, you but these people because the GOP Platform is them.


These people are the FACE of the GOP. Hunstman isn't the face, Olympia Snowe wasn't the face, neither is Orin Hatch.

Now Republicans individually, common folk, no question ,many are not as nutty as the one's listed above but from observation and actual interaction ... many appear to afraid of so many things. The changing demographics of the nation appears to be their chief concern.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
Once you realize that, you can analyze what they say, respect their opinions, and debate from there

..from the group above? Not a chance.

Many of us find it a gross waste of time to debate and discuss issues that have long been proven as fact. Either people want to advance and stand and try to fight change. American societies as in most advancing nations - change.. the only other choice is to mirror Iran and remain in some for of stagnation.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2787 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
I hope not. Emotion clouds judgment.

Stan Smith? Is that you?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
My car insurance company has no problem altering my premiums based on age.

Do you pay for your own health insurance BMI?

Fred

[Edited 2012-09-27 02:48:02]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 121):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
Once you realize that, you can analyze what they say, respect their opinions, and debate from there

..from the group above? Not a chance.

But you just said:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 121):
Now Republicans individually, common folk, no question

Of course I'm not talking about changing Rush Limbaugh's mind or something. I'm talking about ordinary people

Quoting BN747 (Reply 121):
Many of us find it a gross waste of time to debate and discuss issues that have long been proven as fact.

Then why even get on these forums if all you are going to do is gripe? To hear others say they agree with you? If you don't try to find common ground with them they aren't gonna listen. You're probably the same way, you'd be a lot more receptive to what people say if they were decent human beings to you and tried to find common ground than someone calling you a socialist and blah blah blah (and really, blah blah blah is all you're gonna hear.)

I changed my views a lot in the past few years, for the better I think. It was due to rational people that didn't go out of their way to insult, people like DocLightning. The overly-confrontational people that are "too tired of debating" didn't get me anywhere, just pissed me off and entrenched me in my past beliefs. Just saying, you* will do a lot better for society trying to get your views across rather than angrily deliver them. Take that for what it's worth

*you in general, not specifically you



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 119):
Well, healthcare costs are very high. Even a simple operation can cost thousands of dollars.

I bet you'd see costs drop if that's what doctors had to do in order to access a segment of the market.

Quoting lewis (Reply 119):
We pool the risk based on the fact that not all of us are going to get cancer and not all of us will require treatments that cost thousands or millions of dollars.

Why not let people choose the risk pool they wish to be a part of?

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 122):
Do you pay for your own health insurance BMI?

No.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
I bet you'd see costs drop if that's what doctors had to do in order to access a segment of the market.

Hopefully, since even a simple thing such as an X-ray can cost many times what it would cost in places in Europe, even if someone chooses a private practitioner.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
Why not let people choose the risk pool they wish to be a part of?

Although this sounds entirely logical, wouldn't that create a pool of very healthy people vs an over-burdened pool of unhealthy ones? You have to take into consideration that health is not only affected by each one's lifestyle and behavior, thus, finding a pool of "responsible and healthy" people and keeping it that way is not very easy to achieve.


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):

I doubt that would be a problem. There would still be access to medical care, you would just need to buy it or have insurance that pays for it.

what about those who cant afford insurance??? what happens to them?


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 120):

Again I think living in Florida just makes me a bit more prone no matter my political views to be ok with showing a simple ID to vote.
See below:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/2...da-sends-election-departments.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...m-among-many-boleteros-in-florida/
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/05/us...idates-miami-mayoral-election.html

But this is by far my favorite:
http://www.examiner.com/article/cong...ate-from-florida-voted-twice-twice

We in Florida have problems and in a state that once decided an election by a little more than 500 votes every vote really does count.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...oter-registration-allegations?lite


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 125):
Although this sounds entirely logical, wouldn't that create a pool of very healthy people vs an over-burdened pool of unhealthy ones?

Exactly, that's the point. So those with an unhealthy lifestyle would have to decide whether or not the cost is worth it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 125):
You have to take into consideration that health is not only affected by each one's lifestyle and behavior, thus, finding a pool of "responsible and healthy" people and keeping it that way is not very easy to achieve.

That's why the "responsible and healthy" group would need to buy insurance in the first place.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 126):
what about those who cant afford insurance??? what happens to them?

They pay out of pocket. Or go without. Or get help from a charity or teaching institution.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 123):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 121):
Many of us find it a gross waste of time to debate and discuss issues that have long been proven as fact.

Then why even get on these forums if all you are going to do is gripe? To hear others say they agree with you? If you don't try to find common ground with them they aren't gonna listen. You're probably the same way, you'd be a lot more receptive to what people say if they were decent human beings to you and tried to find common ground than someone calling you a socialist and blah blah blah (and really, blah blah blah is all you're gonna hear.)

This is basically a situational 'age' issue.

Most of us go thru the same thing, I mean how much can you possibly know at 17-20. Not much, but a few in that range come with exceptional insight, they've traveled extensively and thru such contacts with different cultural exposures have developed an very broad view about many things.

Some are excel in studies, realize they are exceptional educationally but lack greatly in social skills - but manage to hide be internet anonymity with brazen attitudes..meet them in public and they're quiet as a mouse and would dare not speak in such fashion publicly.

But we all go thru the phase of not knowing much, shaping out ideas from our parents, then our friends and it all changes as time passes. No one's the same person in 9th grade that they were in 5th..(hopefully, but again there are some exceptions) nor when a senior vs their 9th grade persona. College really bolsters the psyche one way or another now the fork in the road - either you're gonna be the type to be receptive to other opinions or the one to stick to what you know and challenge everything that challenges it. When you get into my age range your patience of listening to someone with limited exposure or closed mindset that also happens to be young - is more a nuisance and waste of time.. BUT very same situation on the internet is quite different and many of the same people who won't give you time of day face-to-face are more prone to do so in a setting like this..because one or both parties are they're just killing time (as are most here).

In real life, me personality, depending on the setting, I won't waste a second with someone (over age 30) who speaks as if they're frequently listeners of Limbaugh or Hannity or (like recently) some Islamic crackpot at a party trying to tell me what Islam is all about. (being an equal opportunity religion hater, it was easy to kill the conversation).. because it's very easy to gauge where that mindset originates - time is valuable and I'm not going waste on someone who should know better. If the [person younger (again depending on the setting..a bit more patience may be afforded depending the situation. For example, many time people new to the tv/film industry say things like '..all I need is an agent or my friend just finished this project and he's trying to get into Sundance or I just finished a script and I'm gonna try to sell it..'... now all of that sounds rather innocuous, but to seasoned ears..it's time to depart the group you're talking to because you're so far beyond that in your understanding they are not going 'comprehend or they'll forcefully disagree' with what you inject into the discussion...it's the perfect situation of 'they just aren't ready to hear you yet'.. meaning thru no fault of their own...they simply don't know enough just yet. I was in those shoes many many many times myself and I wasn't ready to grasp nor appreciate what someone was trying to share. It's the same in any business actually..people just rate others at they speak ...and then make a split second decision to stick around or excuse themselves. And I've been called far worse than socialist, commie lover, etc...I've grown out of bar fights and simple-minded slugfest over 'nothing'.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 123):

I changed my views a lot in the past few years, for the better I think. It was due to rational people that didn't go out of their way to insult, people like DocLightning. The overly-confrontational people that are "too tired of debating" didn't get me anywhere, just pissed me off and entrenched me in my past beliefs. Just saying, you* will do a lot better for society trying to get your views across rather than angrily deliver them. Take that for what it's worth

*you in general, not specifically you

A place like this forum has people coming and going in different moods and they're free to let loose on someone without physical reprisal...again, things they would not do if paths crossed in public. There are a select few here who go into a complete rage over certain issues. Clearly, politics and guns are hot buttons here...and depending on someone;s mood anything can happen or be said. As much as everything could be or is a learning or teachable moment...not always the case.

Now, back to Romney...what on earth did he say today?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 96):
Like the media darlings,APPLE?

Actually, several well known companies use the same assembling company. Dell dues. So does HP.

So which companies sends senior management to China to investigate and set standards?

Only one that I have read about. Apple.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 112):
I would love to but my shareholders will fire me if I do because they demand "x" return on their investment.

Signed,

The CEO of any health insurance company.

You just delivered the best argument for a public option to compete with private insurance companies. Right now those plump profits are basically a tax we pay so they will make shareholders happy. Not a bright way to deliver medical care.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 112):
there is no other way to do the good things that are in the ACA without doing the things people don't like.

Take away something (say pre-existing conditions) because you don't happen to like it and all of a sudden there are millions yelling in your face because it is important to them. And they vote.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
Getting sick is a problem. I'd prefer it not be made my problem when others get sick and, for that matter, not make it the problem of others when I get sick.

The reason there is insurance (public & private) is because some illnesses can get pretty expensive. My wife's acute leukemia had a $500,000+ price tag when all costs were added up. Especially 18 months of chemo. You got that amount of money handy? Think your parents can pay that type of medical cost? Might hurt their retirement or your university studies.

And you? Looks like you are in the age group where testicular cancer is diagnosed.

That is why you need to be concerned about maximizing coverage for everyone - even if you don't have a problem "today".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 113):
My car insurance company has no problem altering my premiums based on age.

I didn't pay into an elderly car insurance program my entire driving life. There is no comparison between car insurance and any type of health insurance.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
There would still be access to medical care, you would just need to buy it or have insurance that pays for it.

Nothing like getting the poor on minimum wage to pay for a $50,000 hospital bill, or pay out $5,000 a year in health insurance.

Reality is that the conservatives are unable to present a plan for medical care that will not block access in one form or another. Conservatives simply do not want to pay any money that might go to take care of anyone else.

At least face reality - very large number of Americans cannot financially handle a medical crisis. But their care can be added onto your

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 118):
But there is no reason why that should become a burden for others.

Until a crisis hits your family. You say your parents are not rich. Try to figure out how bad the medical bills have to be before they have to sell their house (if they have one) or make any other major sacrifice.

Quoting flymia (Reply 120):
We in Florida have problems and in a state that once decided an election by a little more than 500 votes every vote really does count

Which is why your idiot of a governor who is working very hard to get as many non-WASPs taken off the voter rolls. What was his goal? 300,000 Americans, including that 90+ year old WW II Veteran.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
I bet you'd see costs drop if that's what doctors had to do in order to access a segment of the market.

Like with Medicare or Medicaid? Go to a universal core care and you will see a lot f doctors very happy to take those government patients - especially if it is requirement for research funds.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
Why not let people choose the risk pool they wish to be a part of?

Why establish a wide range of risk pools when it would result in some high risk groups that are unaffordable to most Americans?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
No.

There you go. My bet is that Mommy & Daddy cover you with their money. Under ObamaCare they can cover you until you're 26. A good thing if you want to get a second (or third) degree. And you will be protected in the event you get a Dx leading to a pre-existing condition.

The reality is simple. Medical insurance is very expensive. ObamaCare is bringing that cost down in several ways. Without ObamaCare you can look towards some very heavy increases. You might get out of college and have a $30K a year policy as your cheapest option. In your lifetime your premiums can top $100K a year if you experience close to the increases I have faced.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
There is no comparison between car insurance and any type of health insurance.

Sure there is. Car insurance rates change because risk correlates to age and there's no reason health insurance couldn't do the same.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
And you? Looks like you are in the age group where testicular cancer is diagnosed.

Sickness and/or death is a side effect of living.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
Nothing like getting the poor on minimum wage to pay for a $50,000 hospital bill, or pay out $5,000 a year in health insurance.

I bet hospitals will find a way to do their jobs at a lower cost if they see that they are pricing themselves out of the market. It's easy to inflate costs when the government and insurance companies are waiting to pay the tab.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
Why establish a wide range of risk pools when it would result in some high risk groups that are unaffordable to most Americans?

It keeps relatively healthy people from having to unnecessarily pay for those who are not, especially of their own doing. Join whatever risk pool you want and can get into: healthy people get to pay less cost due to their lower risks, and the unhealthy get to pay for the risks they incur. Or get no insurance and roll the dice in a risk pool of one.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
Under ObamaCare they can cover you until you're 26. A good thing if you want to get a second (or third) degree.

Might be necessary if liberals get their defense cuts. It's almost like nobody learned anything from the Great Depression.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 130):
You might get out of college and have a $30K a year policy as your cheapest option. In your lifetime your premiums can top $100K a year if you experience close to the increases I have faced.

And when doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies start to wonder where all their customers went I bet they'll find more efficiency to lower costs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

The fact is medical care in the US is far more liberal (meaning free prices, etc.) than in other comparable countries, and spends more than twice as much per citizen, while not covering a big chunk of its population. If that's not a failure of the free market, I don't know what is.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1374 posts, RR: 4
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 132):
The fact is medical care in the US is far more liberal (meaning free prices, etc.) than in other comparable countries, and spends more than twice as much per citizen, while not covering a big chunk of its population. If that's not a failure of the free market, I don't know what is.

Precisely. The free market is not the answer to healthcare because you don't have competition to drive down prices. I had my appendix burst when I was 25. I didn't have time to research who was the cheapest provider etc- I had to have it out s