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US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2932 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Interesting times at the UN in NY, with so many differing opinions flying around.

But I found this article refreshing, from a new kid on the block at least.

Egypt's new president, Mr Mursi warns the US, that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

I think Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him, and listen and follow through with "changed" policy's for the ME.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-is-fa...ans-says-egypt-20120924-26hh2.html


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him

Mursi is US educated and an exceptionally fortunate choice from a western (American) perspective. If America wants to live peacefully for a few years, there is no one in the Middle East more balanced. Hoping the USA listens.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East

Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.

How Romney v. Obama plays out will play a big role in shaping Middle East for decades with some new governments only recently in, and some more changes in store shortly.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5705 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

There's blood and blame to go around for many.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

Favouring=money? They want more aid? They already get sh*tloads, even when you reasonably exclude Iraq and Afghanistan.
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

The numbers are probably even more in favour of the 'others' today.

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.

The German Embassy in Sudan was destroyed, is there deep anti-German sentiment through the Middle East too?

I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right

There is nothing to agree or disagree with in what I said, which was merely endorsing what Mursi said. The facts:

1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

There's blood and blame to go around for many

Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:09:18]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.

That would be dumb. First of all, that's quality money flowing to American businesses. More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether

Negative.

Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:00]

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:47]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5705 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Pu, you have an interesting approach: You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Wow.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2932 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Then why haven't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?

But they (The US) do this to Palestine, go figure ??????

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-to-palestinian-authority-1.387480

And they talk about double standards. Wow !

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

As I said, he's the new kid on the block. Lets give him a chance and listen to his opinion and see what he can muster up.
He might just have something !

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:47:40]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

Last time I checked no Muslim countries were in perpetual war with someone who sought their complete annihilation.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Pakistan sure is behaving nicely at the moment what with the threats to having aid cut. The Senate approved a whopping $33m, a 0.1% cut in aid, for the Pakistanis jailing a man directly involved in trying to get bin Laden. Pakistan's aid is continually getting slashed yet nothing changes.
Billions to Afghanistan haven't stopped the Taliban, the opium nor have they stopped US and coalition troops being murdered by Afghan soldiers while Karzai goes and panders to the Taliban.
Libyan aid didn't convince the government to protect your ambassador either.

Foreign aid perhaps used to work but now the US is just allowing themselves to be extorted by bands of thugs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
quality money flowing to American businesses

That is completely nonsensical, that argument could easily be applied to allowing the Taliban to purchase weapons legally from US manufacturers because it is good money flowing to US businesses. This will likely just be Charlie Wilson 2.0.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Then why hasn't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

I think that they should. If they called our bluff it would put us in an awkward position. Arms races are awfully good business, it would be a shame to lose sales due to taking a moral stand on an issue, but sometimes that's what you have to do.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Among native speakers of English its obvious I endorsed only the facts Mursi conveyed. Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions? Can you kindly point out what I endorsed in Mursi's comments that is a point of view and not a fact?

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 9):
That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

In other words, they hated the Europeans for carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today .....and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.
.
Then when Europe lost its inclination to intervene so much overseas and America stepped in, they started hating America for continuing to enforce the mess Europe created.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5705 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Pu, first of all I disagree with the framing of your original assertions.

Second, it's quite possible that someone might disagree with your assessment of Mursi as being a fortunate choice. that remains to be scene.

Third, Your facts are clearly one-sided and absent of context.

Fourth, stating that the US financial support of Israel has caused a Muslim anger towards the US somehow misses the many billions given to many of those nations as well.

Ultimately, what I find is that you have a very strong point of view about the US and it's support of Israel, which is fine. How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly.

If we can get to the nuts and bolts of it, what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer. Note: Total annihilation of the Israeli people doesn't count. That was tried before and didn't really seem to help the world cause.

-Davr



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today

Please enlighten us as to how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth could have been carved up such that all the peoples of Arabia could happily sit around the Kaaba singing kumbaya... All with the line of a Westminster pencil.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time, modern day Jews have been settling since the 19th century after Britain and the US decided that a people forcibly displaced from their homeland; the most persecuted people in history to avoid decimation, needed their own state.

By your own logic it would be perfectly reasonable for me to despise Iranian people and burn down the Iranian embassy. Iran is sending their unwanted refugees to Australian land without the permission of Australians living here.
Europe can also reasonably hate all of the Arab world for exporting their unwanted Muslims to Europe.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):

As for Mursi being a fortunate choice or not, some were expecting a new Yasser Arafat to emerge as the new leader in Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood.
.
....instead through some cosmic piece of good luck, Egypt is now headed by an ex-California professor who is ok with Israel and wants friendship with America while still re-asserting the popular will of the Egyptian people onto Egyptian policy for a change. America could hardly do better than the leader of Egypt whose kids are American!

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly

Among the 300 million who know the relevant facts I don't think I know of many who remain on the "don't get it" side. There really is no big controversy about the facts of US policy in the Middle East and why many Muslims hate it.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer

Softball question!
.
Use American power to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once and for all. This is nowhere near as bad a conflict as the ones America has won before, it can be done.
.
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it, now Israelis reject it). Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands, and if either they or the Palestinians won't come to terms or violate the negotiated settlement - let the chips fall where they may without US intervention, and yes America can still defend Israel from Iran etc as long as the Palestinians are given a country.
.
Easy? No. But cheaper than the trillions lost in US wars and unending security fears.

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 748 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth

Sure, its the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth...if you don't count Europe, America or Asia.

Which one of Europe's wars would you like to discuss first that by itself killed more than the sum total of all Muslim-Arab wars and terrorism combined since time began?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
could have been carved up

uhmmm, hello? Anybody home? Why were the Europeans carving up the place? Maybe the Europeans should have, I don't know, let the people who live there draw their own map lines and choose their own government?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time

You do agree of course that the European-descended occupants of Australia should surrender all claims to their land in favour of the aborigines, since the aborigines were in Australia since the beginning of recorded time?
.
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...
.
Look, I am happy about Israel and want them to succeed. Israel's not going anyplace.. but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5705 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

1. Again, it remains to be seen how things go in Egypt. I really don't believe that his background is cause for too much celebration though there is certainly room for hope.

2. I have no problem with a two-state solution. The reality that it is 2012 and it still hasn't happened speaks volumes - and not just about how horrible America has been. From Day 1 - literally - Israel had to learn to defend itself. At times they went too far and they likely made a bad situation worse. However, they have also tried to live peacefully but there have been many interested in seeing peace fail. With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out well. After all, apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5724 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3720 times:
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Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+



But you conveniently leave out the corollary...

How many Muslims killed by Muslims?

The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,yet it was a multi national(and multi cultural) response to unprovoked agression against an Islamic nation.. by another "Islamic" state.

Somehow that is of no consequence..the "evil" USA and alliies are at fault.

My opinion, PU, grow up and take a real look at the world!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3697 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States. Calling a spade a spade does not mean he has disdain for the United States.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.
Quoting pu (Reply 6):
No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

I agree, to a point. And that is this: "Palestine" wasn't a free state for hundreds of years prior to the formation of Israel. I'm sure that wasn't pleasant for the people living there but life isn't always rosy, and they aren't the first group of people to be oppressed, but they were offered a solution that few were given. During the decolonizing period the Palestinians were outright given the option for their own country which would have been much larger than the areas now designated for Palestinians, and rejected the option, resorting to war when few were in the mood. Bad PR, and much like the Israelis played puppet for the United States, many of the Arab states played puppet for the Soviet Union. The difference today is one of the puppeteers is no more, replaced with a looser, less organized group of religious fanatics. In addition, judging by the way Muslims treat each other in accordance with the Koran I'm astonished that America is seen as the absolute evil, but I'm not likely to win that argument in a room full of uneducated Muslims who simply believe what their mullah told them, just as I'm unlikely to win an argument in a room full of barely-high school educated Baptists.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.


User currently offlineokees From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3683 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.

The tax dollars that you mention does not only come in the form of cash. Coming from Jordan I can tell you a lot of it is given as weapons, scholarships, medical aid, bribes and what not, and I'm sure the same goes for other countries receiving aid from the US.
Money isn't the reason why there is general anti- US sentiment in the area, it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.



mobs jakis
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 3673 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
it is entirely how America treats Muslims

I am shocked this one slipped through.......I'm sorry, how do we treat Muslims? With religious freedom maybe?

Sorry buddy, but let me know the next time I can wear a Yarmulke in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan without fearing for my life.


User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.

Seems like a bit of revisionist history here. I don't think Europe tried to 'export' Jews to the Holy Land post WW2. I think the Nazi's and Soviet Union murdered millions of Jews, many Europeans stood idly by (some courageous ones did not) and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3518 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
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Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 22):
What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?

No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3695 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.

He can go to h*ll.


25 windy95 : Mr Mursi makes no good points.. You could always move to Egypt. I am sure you will love your freedoms there since it seems that the US is so awful. A
26 pu : Agreed. But engage in some foresight: let it play out further if things stay on the same course. Iran gets a nuke sometime between next week and 2015
27 pu : The lingering effects of Karl Rove & Dick Cheney's version of history where the Muslim reaction to America's provocative policies in the Middle Ea
28 pvjin : Great most. Way too many Americans seem to be incapable of going beyond 9/11 in history, if they did they could maybe see actual (and understandable)
29 ROSWELL41 : Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms. Nazi Germany and Soviet pogroms murde
30 DeltaMD90 : Well this American agrees with much of what Mr Mursi says, and I'm far from a European "socialist" __enter name here__. It's no secret that the US is
31 ROSWELL41 : Have you been to any of these places? Your statement could not be further from the truth. Go take a walk down the streets in New York today and you'd
32 ROSWELL41 : We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.
33 DeltaMD90 : True but not every situation can be compared to Hitler...
34 pu : I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking t
35 casinterest : "Muslim Resentment" as you put it is a religious issue, and is very indicative of the real problem in the region. there are people there that want tr
36 BMI727 : I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack... That is the official reason Bin Laden gave for attacking America. Why would you not court the Chine
37 Post contains images TheCommodore : Only because, the points he makes, don't agree with yours. Funny that ? So what, he can go to hell, just like the previous US supported tyrant ! Not
38 luckyone : I'm not supporting many of the subsequent policies of the Israeli government. However, some facts might need to be pointed out to some of "the world.
39 pu : Most have pretty much decided what side they are on in the Middle East Conflict for emotionally appealing reasons that are disconnected from the trut
40 luckyone : I concur. Hopefully he does it well.
41 cws818 : The above could be one of the most useful posts on here in quite a long time.
42 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Which might very well mean: I mean, I'd love to think that there will be a peaceful outcome. I just don't hold out much hope. I don't disagree out of
43 PlanesNTrains : That may very well be true. Unfortunately i can't go through and reread everything previously posted. All I can do is go through his laundry list of
44 Post contains links TheCommodore : It actually came up in another thread, but of course I can't find it now, and I can't remember off hand........ But a quick look and I came up with t
45 Aesma : Personally I don't think aid to Israel is a problem in itself, and I doubt the Palestinians care much about that. Living in open prisons, without the
46 casinterest : America puts it's money on the Government. If the people should want to change the Government , they can. That is what happened in Egypt, and the US
47 pu : I think thats based in part on an understandable pride in being an American. However, sometimes things ARE mostly one-sided. There is a widespread fe
48 pvjin : Exactly how I see it, great post.
49 casinterest : The Egyptians were getting just as much money when the Arab spring began as they were in the previous 30 years. It was not the US keeping the Egyptia
50 pu : All the events you are still so angry about were EVENTS - they were brief protest reactions to American policy. I am talking about US policy in the M
51 casinterest : Brief PROTEST REACTIONS?????? That is soo understated it is funny. You blame US Policy for keeping regimes in place ? No , it was the citiizens of th
52 pu : Fine, the "citizens of those countries" kept in place the repressive regimes, which were assisted in their repression by billions in US dollars. In o
53 casinterest : So how did the Iranians dispose of the Shah in 1979? Quit making excuses that the US is responsible. The people in those countries blame the US becau
54 pvjin : US government has been playing world police also when all of those attacks happened, all of those attacks 100% fault of US politics.
55 pvjin : Shah in Iran was backed up by US criminal government all the time, people of Iran simply had more power on their hands and Shah was weaker, that's wh
56 casinterest : Name one policy that justified bombing Pan Am, Hijacking the Akili Largo, Kidnapping US Citizens, the nightcliub bombings , the barracks bombings . L
57 PSA53 : It's a no win situation.But the Jewish community have contributed to this nation for over 120 years in a very colorful manner.And of recent,Arabs,in
58 pvjin : Nothing justifies violence, but simply you need to understand that all these attacks are direct result from US war loving foreign policy. But what ab
59 PSA53 : It is not propaganda when innocent people are killed.
60 pvjin : Palestinians use no one, suicide bombers make their own decision to do so.
61 pu : Not weaker than the Americans who took 8 - 10 years to throw off the repressive superpower of their era. The Egyptians took about a year or so. I won
62 pu : The ability to point out problems in others which are much worse in oneself is most impressive. Or do you want to accept some responsibility for crea
63 casinterest : I see you are using your twisted logic again. I was facitiously asking. Meanwhile you go and compare apples to oranges. Please continue with your his
64 pu : If US support of the repressive regimes throughout the Middle East (and Latin America) did not help the repressive regimes, please explain to what pu
65 pvjin : Castro rose to power through rightful revolution similar to ones happening in Middle East. Before him Cuba was ruled by evil tyrant Batista who was e
66 casinterest : I can't explain it to people that have no concept of allegianced , alliances, priorities , and responsibilities . You pretend the cold war, and ww2 d
67 windy95 : So you do agree that we need to remove all foreign aid? Egypt failed the Palestinians. They have used them as a pawn along with the Arab league since
68 PSA53 : NUTS! You haven't answer these questions yet.Yes or no?
69 pu : No, I just pretend the Cold War ended 21 years ago. Those living in the "reality" that Cold War-era doctrine justifies the same behaviour of bribing
70 Dreadnought : And Stalin was just a misunderstood poet. Riiiiight.
71 casinterest : Really? You forget the Cold War Ended, The Gulf War Began, the USS Colde. The 1st World Trade Center Bombing, Somaila, Bosnia, and a host of issues l
72 pu : Everything? None of these US policies are/were NATO and UN policies, in fact many are contrary to UN resolutions or the UN charter: - providing Israe
73 luckyone : Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan (the Taliban rose from US-funded militants), and even Saudi Arabia all wave hello, as do at least a dozen other countries out
74 PSA53 : Once again,I ask you.Do you agree to a two state existence between the Israel and Palestine in which each will recognize each other?
75 pu : When people critisise my actions or my government's, I don't think in childish terms and announce that they hate me. So why do you accuse me of hatre
76 pu : See post 15
77 NW747400 : You make an excellent point. We committed many atrocities and certainly killed hundreds of thousands of people (Cambodians, Laotians, and Vietnamese)
78 PSA53 : So,the answer is no.Which means that the "Final" solution on Israel by all the gang tackling Arab nations is approved.That no one in the Arab world is
79 DeltaMD90 : Pu, Pvjin, I agree with much of what you say, but I think it's wise to acknowledge some of what our US posters are saying. It does sound a bit one sid
80 pu : No. And this is the really hard part for some to undertsand: different cultures are, well, different. You can't have the same policy in place for eve
81 pu : Yes, of course blowing up airplanes etc. is wrong. But I would be a little careful about throwing around the terrorism term considering the number of
82 DeltaMD90 : Yes but you have to when you're dealing with someone who is more heavily pro-Israel. Ignoring or only mentioning them briefly, as we have seen, gets
83 pu : True enough. But compare that to the number of Americans convinced by a small segment of the population that all their big problems (terrorism for ex
84 pu : Thanks, you are a kind and caring man. I'll try to write better. Pu
85 us330 : I don't know if Moursi necessarily likes America--he's said some pretty slanderous things about the country--but he will definitely be someone to wat
86 NW747400 : I've never met anyone in the U.S. that would say that radical Islam is the root of all of our problems (that would be preposterous). What some in the
87 directorguy : What Morsi has been saying has already been said many times over. It is to some extent the stance Mubarak used to pay lip service to. Some people have
88 stealthz : Hey PU, you ignored this.. You quote(in a later post) the VietNam experience and examples such as My Lai, an atrocity by any measure and one of many..
89 casinterest : See your below myopic one sided littanly list of complaints. Perhaps hatred was the wrong word. More like, deeply biased agtagonistic vieweing of the
90 pvjin : Well both of those embassies represent US government in general, I guess that's what causes people to attack them, not what people in those particula
91 casinterest : But once again, what policies were these folks enforcing? Stephens was trying to help the Lybyans. The situations are nuanced, and it once again high
92 pvjin : Yes, but especially many uneducated Muslims do see US interfering and wars around Middle East area & support towards Israel, a country discrimina
93 pu : Instead of defending mistakes and attacking crtitics of American foreign policy ...and trying to defend your side while attacking the other side, thin
94 casinterest : Thinking americans defend thier countires policies , when they are not the cause of the directed angst towards the US. If people hate the US for supp
95 jfk69 : This is true when they are actually serving. You only have to give 3 years of service. If they are not active at the time then they are not soldiers.
96 Post contains links jfk69 : And then Hamas rolls in and does this beauty..... http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-boycotts...chalit-tickets-155641177--spt.html Hamas is launching a media
97 casinterest : And folks wonder why Palestine can't get a peace treaty signed? This is the Government they expect to run a country of peace?
98 DeltaMD90 : No one is denying the Palestinians have and continued to make bad moves. It is the recognition of the faults of the Israelis that people are trying t
99 casinterest : No one denies faults with the Israeli's , but they are our ally, and they are the ones that have folks surrounding them on that would rather seem the
100 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : So they should probably the most receptive to what we have to say, even if the truth isn't exactly what to hear, correct? Does that give them a right
101 casinterest : Yes, and that is why the US has tried to help negotiate, countless times. the problem here in, is that the Israreli's are forced to do what the Hamas
102 pu : Just because Karl Rove used the fear of terrorism as a political tool to scare some voters into voting for Bush in 2004 does not mean the terrorism n
103 NW747400 : I would disagree that they react rationally. Like we discussed previously, the Vietnamese reacted rationally. A significant proportion people in the
104 pu : This is a common problem: making judgments based on what you see on TV versus properly acconting for the 99.9% of Muslims who never make it on TV. Yo
105 Post contains links Dreadnought : And some get persecuted for it... http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Lates...y-for-not-protesting-Muhammad-film Pakistani man accused of blasphemy for no
106 PlanesNTrains : Well, it seems throughout this thread that YOU have special access to the thoughts and feelings of the ENTIRE WORLD: and and and and and and and I re
107 Post contains links windy95 : http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32260.pdf Gives a view from 1950 onward..
108 pvjin : Yeah that's how it is in Pakistan, but thankfully there still are many rational Muslim countries out there. I doubt this would happen in places like
109 windy95 : Yes Indonesia loves Christians.... Muslim attacks on Indonesian Christian Churches in 2010 Herewith is the list of attacks on Christian Churches in I
110 pvjin : I was mainly thinking about Hindu minority in places like Bali, but yeah seems like Christians aren't treated too well there either. I wonder how muc
111 Flaps : How about the U.S simply withdrawing aid to the region period and using that money to help our own here at home? Perhaps Finland and Sweden can step
112 pvjin : Finland and Sweden like most European countries have offered development aid all around the world just like US has done, the difference is just that
113 pu : Ok, your point is well taken, it is pompous to speak for the whole world. . However, I don't post much here that is my opinion unless I identify it a
114 PlanesNTrains : And with that, Pu, I see little point in continuing the conversation. -Dave
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