Mursi is US educated and an exceptionally fortunate choice from a western (American) perspective. If America wants to live peacefully for a few years, there is no one in the Middle East more balanced. Hoping the USA listens.
Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter): that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East
Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.
How Romney v. Obama plays out will play a big role in shaping Middle East for decades with some new governments only recently in, and some more changes in store shortly.
QFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2024 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2660 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter): continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.
Favouring=money? They want more aid? They already get sh*tloads, even when you reasonably exclude Iraq and Afghanistan.
Total 2010 US aid to:
The numbers are probably even more in favour of the 'others' today.
Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.
The German Embassy in Sudan was destroyed, is there deep anti-German sentiment through the Middle East too?
I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 4, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2657 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right
There is nothing to agree or disagree with in what I said, which was merely endorsing what Mursi said. The facts:
1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14315 posts, RR: 26 Reply 5, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2653 times:
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3): I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.
That would be dumb. First of all, that's quality money flowing to American businesses. More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2640 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5): More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.
Then why haven't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?
Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?
But they (The US) do this to Palestine, go figure ??????
QFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2024 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 6): Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.
That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.
Last time I checked no Muslim countries were in perpetual war with someone who sought their complete annihilation.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5): What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.
Pakistan sure is behaving nicely at the moment what with the threats to having aid cut. The Senate approved a whopping $33m, a 0.1% cut in aid, for the Pakistanis jailing a man directly involved in trying to get bin Laden. Pakistan's aid is continually getting slashed yet nothing changes.
Billions to Afghanistan haven't stopped the Taliban, the opium nor have they stopped US and coalition troops being murdered by Afghan soldiers while Karzai goes and panders to the Taliban.
Libyan aid didn't convince the government to protect your ambassador either.
Foreign aid perhaps used to work but now the US is just allowing themselves to be extorted by bands of thugs.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5): quality money flowing to American businesses
That is completely nonsensical, that argument could easily be applied to allowing the Taliban to purchase weapons legally from US manufacturers because it is good money flowing to US businesses. This will likely just be Charlie Wilson 2.0.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14315 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8): Then why hasn't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?
I think that they should. If they called our bluff it would put us in an awkward position. Arms races are awfully good business, it would be a shame to lose sales due to taking a moral stand on an issue, but sometimes that's what you have to do.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2623 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7): You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.
Among native speakers of English its obvious I endorsed only the facts Mursi conveyed. Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions? Can you kindly point out what I endorsed in Mursi's comments that is a point of view and not a fact?
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2611 times:
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 9): That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.
In other words, they hated the Europeans for carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today .....and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.
Then when Europe lost its inclination to intervene so much overseas and America stepped in, they started hating America for continuing to enforce the mess Europe created.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4535 posts, RR: 28 Reply 13, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
Pu, first of all I disagree with the framing of your original assertions.
Second, it's quite possible that someone might disagree with your assessment of Mursi as being a fortunate choice. that remains to be scene.
Third, Your facts are clearly one-sided and absent of context.
Fourth, stating that the US financial support of Israel has caused a Muslim anger towards the US somehow misses the many billions given to many of those nations as well.
Ultimately, what I find is that you have a very strong point of view about the US and it's support of Israel, which is fine. How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly.
If we can get to the nuts and bolts of it, what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer. Note: Total annihilation of the Israeli people doesn't count. That was tried before and didn't really seem to help the world cause.
QFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2024 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2592 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 12): carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today
Please enlighten us as to how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth could have been carved up such that all the peoples of Arabia could happily sit around the Kaaba singing kumbaya... All with the line of a Westminster pencil.
Quoting pu (Reply 12): exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land
Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time, modern day Jews have been settling since the 19th century after Britain and the US decided that a people forcibly displaced from their homeland; the most persecuted people in history to avoid decimation, needed their own state.
By your own logic it would be perfectly reasonable for me to despise Iranian people and burn down the Iranian embassy. Iran is sending their unwanted refugees to Australian land without the permission of Australians living here.
Europe can also reasonably hate all of the Arab world for exporting their unwanted Muslims to Europe.
As for Mursi being a fortunate choice or not, some were expecting a new Yasser Arafat to emerge as the new leader in Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood.
....instead through some cosmic piece of good luck, Egypt is now headed by an ex-California professor who is ok with Israel and wants friendship with America while still re-asserting the popular will of the Egyptian people onto Egyptian policy for a change. America could hardly do better than the leader of Egypt whose kids are American!
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13): How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly
Among the 300 million who know the relevant facts I don't think I know of many who remain on the "don't get it" side. There really is no big controversy about the facts of US policy in the Middle East and why many Muslims hate it.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13): what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer
Use American power to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once and for all. This is nowhere near as bad a conflict as the ones America has won before, it can be done.
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it, now Israelis reject it). Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands, and if either they or the Palestinians won't come to terms or violate the negotiated settlement - let the chips fall where they may without US intervention, and yes America can still defend Israel from Iran etc as long as the Palestinians are given a country.
Easy? No. But cheaper than the trillions lost in US wars and unending security fears.
uhmmm, hello? Anybody home? Why were the Europeans carving up the place? Maybe the Europeans should have, I don't know, let the people who live there draw their own map lines and choose their own government?
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time
You do agree of course that the European-descended occupants of Australia should surrender all claims to their land in favour of the aborigines, since the aborigines were in Australia since the beginning of recorded time?
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...
Look, I am happy about Israel and want them to succeed. Israel's not going anyplace.. but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4535 posts, RR: 28 Reply 17, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2560 times:
1. Again, it remains to be seen how things go in Egypt. I really don't believe that his background is cause for too much celebration though there is certainly room for hope.
2. I have no problem with a two-state solution. The reality that it is 2012 and it still hasn't happened speaks volumes - and not just about how horrible America has been. From Day 1 - literally - Israel had to learn to defend itself. At times they went too far and they likely made a bad situation worse. However, they have also tried to live peacefully but there have been many interested in seeing peace fail. With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out well. After all, apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?
stealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5424 posts, RR: 49 Reply 18, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 4): Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+
But you conveniently leave out the corollary...
How many Muslims killed by Muslims?
The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,yet it was a multi national(and multi cultural) response to unprovoked agression against an Islamic nation.. by another "Islamic" state.
Somehow that is of no consequence..the "evil" USA and alliies are at fault.
My opinion, PU, grow up and take a real look at the world!!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1582 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2): Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.
Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States. Calling a spade a spade does not mean he has disdain for the United States.
Quoting pu (Reply 6): Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.
Quoting pu (Reply 6): No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.
I agree, to a point. And that is this: "Palestine" wasn't a free state for hundreds of years prior to the formation of Israel. I'm sure that wasn't pleasant for the people living there but life isn't always rosy, and they aren't the first group of people to be oppressed, but they were offered a solution that few were given. During the decolonizing period the Palestinians were outright given the option for their own country which would have been much larger than the areas now designated for Palestinians, and rejected the option, resorting to war when few were in the mood. Bad PR, and much like the Israelis played puppet for the United States, many of the Arab states played puppet for the Soviet Union. The difference today is one of the puppeteers is no more, replaced with a looser, less organized group of religious fanatics. In addition, judging by the way Muslims treat each other in accordance with the Koran I'm astonished that America is seen as the absolute evil, but I'm not likely to win that argument in a room full of uneducated Muslims who simply believe what their mullah told them, just as I'm unlikely to win an argument in a room full of barely-high school educated Baptists.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3): Total 2010 US aid to:
Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.
okees From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 424 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Quoting luckyone (Reply 19): Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.
The tax dollars that you mention does not only come in the form of cash. Coming from Jordan I can tell you a lot of it is given as weapons, scholarships, medical aid, bribes and what not, and I'm sure the same goes for other countries receiving aid from the US.
Money isn't the reason why there is general anti- US sentiment in the area, it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.
ROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 576 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2442 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 12): and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.
Seems like a bit of revisionist history here. I don't think Europe tried to 'export' Jews to the Holy Land post WW2. I think the Nazi's and Soviet Union murdered millions of Jews, many Europeans stood idly by (some courageous ones did not) and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3000 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2407 times:
This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.
He can go to h*ll.
25 windy95: Mr Mursi makes no good points.. You could always move to Egypt. I am sure you will love your freedoms there since it seems that the US is so awful. A
26 pu: Agreed. But engage in some foresight: let it play out further if things stay on the same course. Iran gets a nuke sometime between next week and 2015
27 pu: The lingering effects of Karl Rove & Dick Cheney's version of history where the Muslim reaction to America's provocative policies in the Middle Ea
28 pvjin: Great most. Way too many Americans seem to be incapable of going beyond 9/11 in history, if they did they could maybe see actual (and understandable)
29 ROSWELL41: Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms. Nazi Germany and Soviet pogroms murde
30 DeltaMD90: Well this American agrees with much of what Mr Mursi says, and I'm far from a European "socialist" __enter name here__. It's no secret that the US is
31 ROSWELL41: Have you been to any of these places? Your statement could not be further from the truth. Go take a walk down the streets in New York today and you'd
32 ROSWELL41: We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.
33 DeltaMD90: True but not every situation can be compared to Hitler...
34 pu: I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking t
35 casinterest: "Muslim Resentment" as you put it is a religious issue, and is very indicative of the real problem in the region. there are people there that want tr
36 BMI727: I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack... That is the official reason Bin Laden gave for attacking America. Why would you not court the Chine
37 TheCommodore: Only because, the points he makes, don't agree with yours. Funny that ? So what, he can go to hell, just like the previous US supported tyrant ! Not
38 luckyone: I'm not supporting many of the subsequent policies of the Israeli government. However, some facts might need to be pointed out to some of "the world.
39 pu: Most have pretty much decided what side they are on in the Middle East Conflict for emotionally appealing reasons that are disconnected from the trut