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US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

Interesting times at the UN in NY, with so many differing opinions flying around.

But I found this article refreshing, from a new kid on the block at least.

Egypt's new president, Mr Mursi warns the US, that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

I think Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him, and listen and follow through with "changed" policy's for the ME.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-is-fa...ans-says-egypt-20120924-26hh2.html


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him

Mursi is US educated and an exceptionally fortunate choice from a western (American) perspective. If America wants to live peacefully for a few years, there is no one in the Middle East more balanced. Hoping the USA listens.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East

Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.

How Romney v. Obama plays out will play a big role in shaping Middle East for decades with some new governments only recently in, and some more changes in store shortly.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

There's blood and blame to go around for many.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3697 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

Favouring=money? They want more aid? They already get sh*tloads, even when you reasonably exclude Iraq and Afghanistan.
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

The numbers are probably even more in favour of the 'others' today.

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.

The German Embassy in Sudan was destroyed, is there deep anti-German sentiment through the Middle East too?

I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right

There is nothing to agree or disagree with in what I said, which was merely endorsing what Mursi said. The facts:

1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

There's blood and blame to go around for many

Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:09:18]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.

That would be dumb. First of all, that's quality money flowing to American businesses. More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether

Negative.

Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:00]

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:47]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Pu, you have an interesting approach: You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Wow.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Then why haven't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?

But they (The US) do this to Palestine, go figure ??????

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-to-palestinian-authority-1.387480

And they talk about double standards. Wow !

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

As I said, he's the new kid on the block. Lets give him a chance and listen to his opinion and see what he can muster up.
He might just have something !

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:47:40]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

Last time I checked no Muslim countries were in perpetual war with someone who sought their complete annihilation.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Pakistan sure is behaving nicely at the moment what with the threats to having aid cut. The Senate approved a whopping $33m, a 0.1% cut in aid, for the Pakistanis jailing a man directly involved in trying to get bin Laden. Pakistan's aid is continually getting slashed yet nothing changes.
Billions to Afghanistan haven't stopped the Taliban, the opium nor have they stopped US and coalition troops being murdered by Afghan soldiers while Karzai goes and panders to the Taliban.
Libyan aid didn't convince the government to protect your ambassador either.

Foreign aid perhaps used to work but now the US is just allowing themselves to be extorted by bands of thugs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
quality money flowing to American businesses

That is completely nonsensical, that argument could easily be applied to allowing the Taliban to purchase weapons legally from US manufacturers because it is good money flowing to US businesses. This will likely just be Charlie Wilson 2.0.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Then why hasn't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

I think that they should. If they called our bluff it would put us in an awkward position. Arms races are awfully good business, it would be a shame to lose sales due to taking a moral stand on an issue, but sometimes that's what you have to do.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Among native speakers of English its obvious I endorsed only the facts Mursi conveyed. Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions? Can you kindly point out what I endorsed in Mursi's comments that is a point of view and not a fact?

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 9):
That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

In other words, they hated the Europeans for carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today .....and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.
.
Then when Europe lost its inclination to intervene so much overseas and America stepped in, they started hating America for continuing to enforce the mess Europe created.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Pu, first of all I disagree with the framing of your original assertions.

Second, it's quite possible that someone might disagree with your assessment of Mursi as being a fortunate choice. that remains to be scene.

Third, Your facts are clearly one-sided and absent of context.

Fourth, stating that the US financial support of Israel has caused a Muslim anger towards the US somehow misses the many billions given to many of those nations as well.

Ultimately, what I find is that you have a very strong point of view about the US and it's support of Israel, which is fine. How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly.

If we can get to the nuts and bolts of it, what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer. Note: Total annihilation of the Israeli people doesn't count. That was tried before and didn't really seem to help the world cause.

-Davr



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today

Please enlighten us as to how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth could have been carved up such that all the peoples of Arabia could happily sit around the Kaaba singing kumbaya... All with the line of a Westminster pencil.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time, modern day Jews have been settling since the 19th century after Britain and the US decided that a people forcibly displaced from their homeland; the most persecuted people in history to avoid decimation, needed their own state.

By your own logic it would be perfectly reasonable for me to despise Iranian people and burn down the Iranian embassy. Iran is sending their unwanted refugees to Australian land without the permission of Australians living here.
Europe can also reasonably hate all of the Arab world for exporting their unwanted Muslims to Europe.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):

As for Mursi being a fortunate choice or not, some were expecting a new Yasser Arafat to emerge as the new leader in Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood.
.
....instead through some cosmic piece of good luck, Egypt is now headed by an ex-California professor who is ok with Israel and wants friendship with America while still re-asserting the popular will of the Egyptian people onto Egyptian policy for a change. America could hardly do better than the leader of Egypt whose kids are American!

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly

Among the 300 million who know the relevant facts I don't think I know of many who remain on the "don't get it" side. There really is no big controversy about the facts of US policy in the Middle East and why many Muslims hate it.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer

Softball question!
.
Use American power to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once and for all. This is nowhere near as bad a conflict as the ones America has won before, it can be done.
.
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it, now Israelis reject it). Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands, and if either they or the Palestinians won't come to terms or violate the negotiated settlement - let the chips fall where they may without US intervention, and yes America can still defend Israel from Iran etc as long as the Palestinians are given a country.
.
Easy? No. But cheaper than the trillions lost in US wars and unending security fears.

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth

Sure, its the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth...if you don't count Europe, America or Asia.

Which one of Europe's wars would you like to discuss first that by itself killed more than the sum total of all Muslim-Arab wars and terrorism combined since time began?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
could have been carved up

uhmmm, hello? Anybody home? Why were the Europeans carving up the place? Maybe the Europeans should have, I don't know, let the people who live there draw their own map lines and choose their own government?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time

You do agree of course that the European-descended occupants of Australia should surrender all claims to their land in favour of the aborigines, since the aborigines were in Australia since the beginning of recorded time?
.
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...
.
Look, I am happy about Israel and want them to succeed. Israel's not going anyplace.. but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

1. Again, it remains to be seen how things go in Egypt. I really don't believe that his background is cause for too much celebration though there is certainly room for hope.

2. I have no problem with a two-state solution. The reality that it is 2012 and it still hasn't happened speaks volumes - and not just about how horrible America has been. From Day 1 - literally - Israel had to learn to defend itself. At times they went too far and they likely made a bad situation worse. However, they have also tried to live peacefully but there have been many interested in seeing peace fail. With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out well. After all, apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 3556 times:
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Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+



But you conveniently leave out the corollary...

How many Muslims killed by Muslims?

The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,yet it was a multi national(and multi cultural) response to unprovoked agression against an Islamic nation.. by another "Islamic" state.

Somehow that is of no consequence..the "evil" USA and alliies are at fault.

My opinion, PU, grow up and take a real look at the world!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States. Calling a spade a spade does not mean he has disdain for the United States.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.
Quoting pu (Reply 6):
No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

I agree, to a point. And that is this: "Palestine" wasn't a free state for hundreds of years prior to the formation of Israel. I'm sure that wasn't pleasant for the people living there but life isn't always rosy, and they aren't the first group of people to be oppressed, but they were offered a solution that few were given. During the decolonizing period the Palestinians were outright given the option for their own country which would have been much larger than the areas now designated for Palestinians, and rejected the option, resorting to war when few were in the mood. Bad PR, and much like the Israelis played puppet for the United States, many of the Arab states played puppet for the Soviet Union. The difference today is one of the puppeteers is no more, replaced with a looser, less organized group of religious fanatics. In addition, judging by the way Muslims treat each other in accordance with the Koran I'm astonished that America is seen as the absolute evil, but I'm not likely to win that argument in a room full of uneducated Muslims who simply believe what their mullah told them, just as I'm unlikely to win an argument in a room full of barely-high school educated Baptists.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.


User currently offlineokees From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.

The tax dollars that you mention does not only come in the form of cash. Coming from Jordan I can tell you a lot of it is given as weapons, scholarships, medical aid, bribes and what not, and I'm sure the same goes for other countries receiving aid from the US.
Money isn't the reason why there is general anti- US sentiment in the area, it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.



mobs jakis
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
it is entirely how America treats Muslims

I am shocked this one slipped through.......I'm sorry, how do we treat Muslims? With religious freedom maybe?

Sorry buddy, but let me know the next time I can wear a Yarmulke in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan without fearing for my life.


User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.

Seems like a bit of revisionist history here. I don't think Europe tried to 'export' Jews to the Holy Land post WW2. I think the Nazi's and Soviet Union murdered millions of Jews, many Europeans stood idly by (some courageous ones did not) and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 3451 times:
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Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 22):
What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?

No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.

He can go to h*ll.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2707 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
I think Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him, and listen and follow through with "changed" policy's for the ME.

Mr Mursi makes no good points..

Quoting pu (Reply 1):
Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.

You could always move to Egypt. I am sure you will love your freedoms there since it seems that the US is so awful.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords

And has given many more billions to the surrounding Muslim countries since then.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid

And the Palestinians try to kill Israelis every week with weapons sent from Muslim countries. DO you have a point to make?

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the

Once again we have been giving many more weapons and much more cash to the Muslim world vs Israel.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission

And that commission was a bunch of idiot's who white washed history for the Clinton and Bush clan's

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

Why do you continue to ignore the massive Muslim subsidies going on around Israel. You do know that Camp David was a bribe to both sides?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?

And they should continue to thumb there nose and do what is best for them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Just not true. Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us. Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Quoting pu (Reply 11):
Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions?

They are your opinions.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.

Not really. Much of the land had already been bought up before the war. You seem to believe today that the illegal aliens flooding our country do not need permission from us so why this double standard?

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it

No the Arab league pretty much made the decision for them. The Arab league made this mess and then did nothing to help the refugees they created after the Nakhba.

Quoting pu (Reply 16):
but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.

No Muslim hate of anything not muslim being among them created this.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
Quoting pu (Reply 4):Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+


But you conveniently leave out the corollary...

How many Muslims killed by Muslims?

Yes he did.....

Quoting okees (Reply 20):
it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.

Because the Palestinians are terrorist attacking a sovereign nation. What makes the blood boil is that the Arab's kept losing to the Jews in combat.

I guess you had no problem with Jordan controlling the West Bank until Israel took control of it. It was awfully nice of Jordan to put those "refugees" into nice camps for the next few generations and using them as a tool against Israel instead of absorbing them into your Country of Jordan. After all the "Palestinian's had been part of the same country previously as the Jordanian's

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 22):
and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?

And many European Jews had already immigrated there before the war buying up legally huge swath's of land.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 23):
No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?

The Palestinian's paid for the crimes of the Arab league. Blame them...



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17):

With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out we

Agreed.
But engage in some foresight: let it play out further if things stay on the same course. Iran gets a nuke sometime between next week and 2015. Pakistan is already a nuclear power. The next nuclear power in the area is then Turkey, Egypt, Iraq or who knows....meanwhile any of these countries are likely to covertly give a nuke to a 3rd party terrorist...and Israel is ruined in an attack by a stateless terrorist.
.
The only viable option for Israel's survival is to ensure by any means possible that both the Palestinians are placated and its neighbours are ok with its existence. The current endless war only ends in the end of Israel, and time, the size of the Muslim world and the spread of technology mean the clock is ticking for Israel, not the Muslims.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17):

apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?


The world sees Israel as the place where Europe dumped its unwanted post WW2 refugees without asking the people who were already living there if they wanted these ex-Europeans.
.
The world sees the US as bankrolling Israel because of an odd and recent convergence of 3 forces:
-----1 AIPAC and the influence of ultra-nationalist Israeli interests on the US congress
-----2 Pentecostal-Evangelical US Christians who think Israel is an instrumentality of God
-----3 US foreign policy hawks (aka 'neocons') who always want war in the Middle East

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):

Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting

Yes, right now we are caught in a neverending chicken and egg cycle of which came first, American-Israeli harm to Muslims or Palestinian-Muslim harm to Israel? ...and we haven't even mentioned how America's love affair with oil and global policy in support of its foreign oil dependence serves to fund the very people attacking America.


Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3435 times:

The lingering effects of Karl Rove & Dick Cheney's version of history where the Muslim reaction to America's provocative policies in the Middle East is given all the attention instead of any thought given to how America provoked anti-US sentiment:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.

He can go to h*ll.

America bankrolled a brutal and repressive dictator in Egypt for 30 years. Once the Egyptians were able to elect their own chosen leader free of US influence, do you expect them to be thankful and respectful of a country that kept them repressed for 3 decades? Vandalising an embassy is nothing, stop letting your very bruised ego decide whats best for Arabs/Muslims living in the Middle East and look a bit farther back in history than a 9/11.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 21):

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
it is entirely how America treats Muslims

I am shocked this one slipped through.......I'm sorry, how do we treat Muslims? With religious freedom maybe?

Sorry buddy, but let me know the next time I can wear a Yarmulke in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan without fearing for my life.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):


Fearing for your life is a fact of life on the streets of New York, not in Saudi Arabia or most Arab-Muslim countries.

Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

Pu


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
America bankrolled a brutal and repressive dictator in Egypt for 30 years. Once the Egyptians were able to elect their own chosen leader free of US influence, do you expect them to be thankful and respectful of a country that kept them repressed for 3 decades? Vandalising an embassy is nothing, stop letting your very bruised ego decide whats best for Arabs/Muslims living in the Middle East and look a bit farther back in history than a 9/11.

Great most. Way too many Americans seem to be incapable of going beyond 9/11 in history, if they did they could maybe see actual (and understandable) motives behind all this dislike towards western world and especially United States, instead of blaming just Islam for everything.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months ago) and read 3403 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The world sees Israel as the place where Europe dumped its unwanted post WW2 refugees without asking the people who were already living there if they wanted these ex-Europeans.

Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms. Nazi Germany and Soviet pogroms murdered millions of Jewish men, women and children. Some countries like Great Britain fought to end this atrocity while others like Sweden maintained neutrality in the face of evil. Consequently, the Jewish who survived no longer felt welcomed in countries that tried to annihilate people of their faith. They came together from all over the world and with their money, political influence, arms and blood formed the nation of Israel in their ancestral homeland so that the Holocaust could never be repeated. I wouldn't characterize what I wrote as 'Europe dumping its unwanted post WW2 refugees', rather a persecuted people took matters into their own hands so that anti-Semites cannot wipe them off the face of the Earth.

[Edited 2012-09-25 13:18:09]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months ago) and read 3400 times:

Well this American agrees with much of what Mr Mursi says, and I'm far from a European "socialist" __enter name here__. It's no secret that the US is especially disliked by many Muslim nations, and the reasons I hear have to do with our intervention and our blind support for Israel against the Palestinians, not the reasons people like good ol Rick Santorum gives.

It is quite possible to be both for Israel's safety and criticize some of their actions and the way they treat the Palestinians.

That's the mistake many of you make, you think it's all black and white. Pu isn't some terrible anti-American who hates Israel. He hasn't said it yet but I'm 99.99% sure he is completely against Palestinian suicide bombers. But just because one side is "worse" doesn't absolve the other side from blame.

Perhaps you agree with all that Israel does, but there is an obvious resentment from the Palestinians. Talking to a few (ORDINARY CITIZENS) their gripe is the way the Israeli government treats them. They aren't hellbent on killing all the Jews or anything.

It's gonna take a lot from both sides. If you are "pro-Israel" I encourage you to be pro-Palestinian too. Most are good people who are frustrated and want to be treated fairly. I highly doubt anyone here can claim that Israel's policies are perfect, so acknowledging that, are we to just to say "eh, Palestinians are worse" or should we look at ways to address their concerns while keeping Israel's security concerns in mind?

I'll tell you one thing, not listening to the Palestinians and blindly supporting Israel WILL NOT WORK. That is just common sense.

Lastly, again, don't think Pu is being anti-American, he brings up many points that I largely agree with, and I absolutely love this country and am currently serving in its military. Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
Fearing for your life is a fact of life on the streets of New York, not in Saudi Arabia or most Arab-Muslim countries.

Have you been to any of these places? Your statement could not be further from the truth. Go take a walk down the streets in New York today and you'd be fine. How about Damascus, Benghazi, Baghdad, Kabul, Cairo, Tripoli, Sanaa, Karachi, Islamabad? Be intellectually honest and answer that question. I'm sure Riyadh would be fine because Saudi Arabia is a police state and I'm sure very safe. Quite similar to how Tunisia and Egypt used to be in that respect.


User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months ago) and read 3390 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 32):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.

True but not every situation can be compared to Hitler...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 29):
Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms

I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking the permission of the people already living there.

If I understand you correctly your beef with me is that you say the [future] Israelis weren't sent there by Europe but chose this spot on their own. Maybe this is a point for Israeli pride, but it doesn't play into world opinion on Israel.

In any event, whether the refugees were sent or instead chose to go, the Palestinians end up paying the price for Europe's war and are forcibly required to give up their land for new Jewish arrivals that the Western Allies refused to embrace themselves.

The Allies simply gave their refugee problem to the Palestinians. Mursi is saying America needs to wake upand see how this 70 year history creates embassy problems, terrorism and ongoing Muslim resentment. He isn't saying kill all the Jews and America too.

Pu


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
The Allies simply gave their refugee problem to the Palestinians. Mursi is saying America needs to wake upand see how this 70 year history creates embassy problems, terrorism and ongoing Muslim resentment. He isn't saying kill all the Jews and America too.

"Muslim Resentment" as you put it is a religious issue, and is very indicative of the real problem in the region. there are people there that want true freedom, however there are others that are very subscribed to a holier than thou religious creed that is prevelant in the region. All of the countries in the middle east have been formed through power struggles ,war, exhile and other attrocities. The leasers in the regions need to stop blaming events 70 years in the past for their failures to find solutions for the future.
The embassy issues, terrorism and other events are being used for religious and political expediancy to ofset the issues inherent within the countries and societies they are a part of. There are still very real power struggles as part of the recent wave of changes, and it will be interesting to see whether fanatacism, facism, theocracy''s or diplomacy and democracy win out.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 16):
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...

I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack...

Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,

That is the official reason Bin Laden gave for attacking America.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians.

Why would you not court the Chinese and Russians?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Nah. It's much more profitable and better for the economy to fuel an arms race.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 29):
Consequently, the Jewish who survived no longer felt welcomed in countries that tried to annihilate people of their faith.

To be fair, the Jews weren't exactly welcomed with open arms before.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Mr Mursi makes no good points..

Only because, the points he makes, don't agree with yours. Funny that ?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
He can go to h*ll.

So what, he can go to hell, just like the previous US supported tyrant !

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And has given many more billions to the surrounding Muslim countries since then.

Not nearly as enough as Israel has received over the decades and decades.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And the Palestinians try to kill Israelis every week with weapons sent from Muslim countries. DO you have a point to make?

Like the weapons the IDF use against the Palestinians..... Mostly I'd guess form the US of course.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And that commission was a bunch of idiot's who white washed history for the Clinton and Bush clan's

How convenient of you to take that point of view.... funny you'd think like that. Actually no it isn't !

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Just not true. Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us. Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Way to late to back track now... the damage has already been done

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Because the Palestinians are terrorist attacking a sovereign nation.

Many think otherwise

And many, look at Israel, slowly slowly picking away at bits of Palestinian land, and building more and yet more settlements, despite being told NOT to...Way to go Israel, keep it up.

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

        

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
It is quite possible to be both for Israel's safety and criticize some of their actions and the way they treat the Palestinians.

Seems as though this depends on what day of the week it is

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
But just because one side is "worse" doesn't absolve the other side from blame.

Absolutely spot on with that summation

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
There are still very real power struggles as part of the recent wave of changes, and it will be interesting to see whether fanatacism, facism, theocracy''s or diplomacy and democracy win out.

And it will be just as interesting to see who America, put its money on ?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
To be fair, the Jews weren't exactly welcomed with open arms before.

No, well. lets not let facts get in the way.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking the permission of the people already living there.

I'm not supporting many of the subsequent policies of the Israeli government. However, some facts might need to be pointed out to some of "the world."
- 55-60% of immigrants to the newly formed state of Israel between 1948 and 1951 were Sephardic and Mizrahim Jews (ie not those persecuted by Nazi Germany). Many of these individuals were expelled and/or had their citizenship revoked from nearby Muslim countries simply for being Jewish (not Israeli) after the 1948 war. They outnumbered the Ashkenazi (ie displaced German and Eastern European, the majority of Nazi victims) Jews almost 6:1 from the 1950's-1970's. The genetic lines have mixed considerably since.
- An estimated 1,000,000 Jews were expelled or left various communities in the Muslim world between the end of World War 2 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973. Today they and their descendents make up over 60% of Israel's population. That is clearly antisemitism as most of those people had roots dating back at least a century in every place but Israel. People don't permanently migrate en masse like that simply because of a religious calling. In the hundreds? Sure. In the hundreds of thousands? No. They did so because Anti-Israel became Anti-Jew. Most of whom probably would have never left otherwise.

[Edited 2012-09-25 16:09:18]

[Edited 2012-09-25 16:12:55]

User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 38):

Most have pretty much decided what side they are on in the Middle East Conflict for emotionally appealing reasons that are disconnected from the truth. I am certain if the founders of Israel in the 1940s could fave forseen the decades of high and low intensity war that were to follow, they would have gone quite a bit further to ensure the Palestinians were pacified by the new political realities in the region.

...In any event, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is the lightning rod that focuses Arab-Muslim frustrations on something they all agree upon. Its as motivating in the Muslim world as Pearl Harbor was to America.

Mursi is delicately balancing the situation in Egypt and is very much needing the help of a superpower that isn't going to shoot first and ask questions never.


Pu


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
I am certain if the founders of Israel in the 1940s could fave forseen the decades of high and low intensity war that were to follow, they would have gone quite a bit further to ensure the Palestinians were pacified by the new political realities in the region.

...In any event, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is the lightning rod that focuses Arab-Muslim frustrations on something they all agree upon. Its as motivating in the Muslim world as Pearl Harbor was to America.

I concur.

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
Mursi is delicately balancing the situation in Egypt and is very much needing the help of a superpower that isn't going to shoot first and ask questions never.

Hopefully he does it well.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
It's gonna take a lot from both sides. If you are "pro-Israel" I encourage you to be pro-Palestinian too.

The above could be one of the most useful posts on here in quite a long time.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The only viable option for Israel's survival is to ensure by any means possible that both the Palestinians are placated and its neighbours are ok with its existence.

Which might very well mean:

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The current endless war only ends in the end of Israel,

I mean, I'd love to think that there will be a peaceful outcome. I just don't hold out much hope.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Lastly, again, don't think Pu is being anti-American, he brings up many points that I largely agree with, and I absolutely love this country and am currently serving in its military. Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

I don't disagree out of hand. I struggle with the one-sidedness of it all. Occasionally there's a glimmer of '...but the Palestinians need to..." type of thing, but otherwise it just seems to point to all the reasons that the US and Israel are hated. As if nothing else has ever happened, as if Israel hasn't ever tried.

Balancing it out a little would go a long ways towards inviting that very thing being expected from us here.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack...

Oye...  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians.
Why would you not court the Chinese and Russians?

True. No different than airlines shopping various manufacturers. Why put all your eggs in one basket, and why not create a little competition. Very BMI727-like. I'd do the same I think.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
Not nearly as enough as Israel has received over the decades and decades.

Can you quantify that? That's a legitimate question as apparently you know and I don't really have any idea.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
Quoting pu (Reply 27):Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

I'm 100% against legalizing drugs, but I'm getting to the point that I think we may need to do it. Much of the above is due to drugs and gangs. I suppose if we make it ok for Susie to buy cocaine at Walgreens we might be able to get those numbers down - and help the deficit at the same time.

Maybe then we'll be allowed to have an opinion about the rest of the world the way the love to have an opinion about us.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States.

That may very well be true. Unfortunately i can't go through and reread everything previously posted. All I can do is go through his laundry list of items explaining why the US and Israel are so hated, with little mention of virtually any other part of history.

But I respect that others see it differently.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):
Can you quantify that? That's a legitimate question as apparently you know and I don't really have any idea.

It actually came up in another thread, but of course I can't find it now, and I can't remember off hand........

But a quick look and I came up with these numbers.... Mind boggling don't you think ?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/11/...-aid-to-israel-feeding-the-cuckoo/

How many other country's have received so much US assistance that you heard of ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

Personally I don't think aid to Israel is a problem in itself, and I doubt the Palestinians care much about that. Living in open prisons, without the right to have a seaport, with colonies popping up everywhere, a wall in the middle of their fields, restricted access to water and electricity, citizens being treated as second class, etc., this they care about.

I just read the other day that the French embassy built a water reservoir for farmers in the West Bank, since they couldn't get a building permit (Israel blocking them on purpose). Well, the embassy couldn't get the permit either, but built it anyway. It was bulldozed. Now the embassy will build 20 reservoirs.

[Edited 2012-09-26 02:44:27]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
And it will be just as interesting to see who America, put its money on ?

America puts it's money on the Government. If the people should want to change the Government , they can. That is what happened in Egypt, and the US is attempting to work with them. You sit there and pretend it is a roulette game,, but it isn't. The US hold vast interest in many countries as trading, diplomatic, educational, and defense partners.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):

I struggle with the one-sidedness of it all

I think thats based in part on an understandable pride in being an American. However, sometimes things ARE mostly one-sided. There is a widespread feeling among the nonAmerican world that the average American has no clue as to the lengthy laundry list of provocations the USA has flung unto the Arab-Muslim world for ~50 years. Then they get defensive or eyes glaze over when its pointed out that the Iranians in '79 or the Egyptians in 2012 are reacting to American provocations, not just picking on America because it is the "worlds policeman" or whatever self-congratulatory epithets are offered to explain why the Muslims are so angry.

The reaction among many Americans in the wake of 9/11 was like that of a bitchy (and not especially attractive) schoolgirl who thinks everyone hates her because they are jeoulous of how pretty she is - when in actuality everyone hates her because she is a bitch. The same with the Cairo embassy thing - Hello, Mr and Mrs America, your tax dollars kept in power a repressive Egyptian dictator for 30 years, and the Egyptians are still angry about it.

I can't see any policy of an Arab/Muslim nation that has harmed America, yet American policy has harmed and killed Muslims for decades. Or perhaps you have some examples of an Arab-Muslim nation intervening in North America????


Pu


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 47):

Exactly how I see it, great post.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
The reaction among many Americans in the wake of 9/11 was like that of a bitchy (and not especially attractive) schoolgirl who thinks everyone hates her because they are jeoulous of how pretty she is - when in actuality everyone hates her because she is a bitch. The same with the Cairo embassy thing - Hello, Mr and Mrs America, your tax dollars kept in power a repressive Egyptian dictator for 30 years, and the Egyptians are still angry about it.

The Egyptians were getting just as much money when the Arab spring began as they were in the previous 30 years. It was not the US keeping the Egyptian people repressed. it was their own decision. They finally broke up with a bad boyfriend after years of taking the abuse. American's know the history of the Region, and there is not just this imaginary history of 9/11 as you pretend exists. Your ignorance of the Beirut Embassy, Iran Barracks, TWA hijacking, Pan AM, and many other events have shaped many issues. But please continue on with your mksguided high school analogies.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 49):

All the events you are still so angry about were EVENTS - they were brief protest reactions to American policy.

I am talking about US policy in the Middle East that has for 50+ years killed Muslims and kept in place repressive regimes hurting Muslims every day.

You are talking about the protests to these policies. See the difference?

In American historical terms, I am arguing about the British Stamp Act that infuriated Boston businessmen. You are complaining that the people in Boston had their tea party in PROTEST of the policy. Americans are pissed at anti-US protests, the angry Muslims are pissed at American POLICIES.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-26 12:03:59]

User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 50):
they were brief protest reactions to American policy.

Brief PROTEST REACTIONS?????? That is soo understated it is funny.

You blame US Policy for keeping regimes in place ? No , it was the citiizens of those countries that kept those regimes in place.
The US didn't get rid of their Dictators, the people did, and whether they are better off or not remains to be seen.
US Policies were for trade and very real war and NATO alliances with the existing governments. The power to Govern always comes from the citizens.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 51):

You blame US Policy for keeping regimes in place ? No , it was the citiizens of those countries that kept those regimes in place.

Fine, the "citizens of those countries" kept in place the repressive regimes, which were assisted in their repression by billions in US dollars. In other words, their struggle against the repression was years longer thanks to the democracy-loving polices of America in the Middle East that kept dictators flush with weaponry & money.

Now they're still angry about America fighting against them for 50+ years. The whole world sees it....just man up to mistakes and move on, there is great potential to make up for the past.

Pu


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3037 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 52):
their struggle against the repression was years longer thanks to the democracy-loving polices of America in the Middle East that kept dictators flush with weaponry & money.

So how did the Iranians dispose of the Shah in 1979? Quit making excuses that the US is responsible. The people in those countries blame the US because they have been taught to blame the US, by regimes seeking to place the blame elsewhere.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 49):
American's know the history of the Region, and there is not just this imaginary history of 9/11 as you pretend exists. Your ignorance of the Beirut Embassy, Iran Barracks, TWA hijacking, Pan AM, and many other events have shaped many issues. But please continue on with your mksguided high school analogies.

US government has been playing world police also when all of those attacks happened, all of those attacks 100% fault of US politics.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 53):
So how did the Iranians dispose of the Shah in 1979? Quit making excuses that the US is responsible. The people in those countries blame the US because they have been taught to blame the US, by regimes seeking to place the blame elsewhere.

Shah in Iran was backed up by US criminal government all the time, people of Iran simply had more power on their hands and Shah was weaker, that's why they got rid of him earlier.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 54):
US government has been playing world police also when all of those attacks happened, all of those attacks 100% fault of US politics.

Name one policy that justified bombing Pan Am, Hijacking the Akili Largo, Kidnapping US Citizens, the nightcliub bombings , the barracks bombings . Let's here your twisted version of justiffied.

Someone has to play world cop when the rest of the world would rather stand by and let finatics dictate actions. The US has acted in the best interest of the UN or NATO in it's policies Did they teach you about WW2 or the Cold War at all in school?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 55):
Shah in Iran was backed up by US criminal government all the time, people of Iran simply had more power on their hands and Shah was weaker, that's why they got rid of him earlier.

The people still got rid of him, You are basically calling the Egyptians weak, correct ?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.

It's a no win situation.But the Jewish community have contributed to this nation for over 120 years in a very colorful manner.And of recent,Arabs,in the last 25 years in the masses, have come to America making demands.Not hard to decided.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid

1)And Palestinians use children/adults carry bombs for their hate.2)Every week? Right.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether

Negative.

Is you're feeling before or after Palestinians exterminates Israel? You do realize that both sides have own the property through out history? Do you believe in a two states existence?You do believe the holocaust did happen?

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims

And back at you.That feeling is mutual.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
Name one policy that justified bombing Pan Am, Hijacking the Akili Largo, Kidnapping US Citizens, the nightcliub bombings , the barracks bombings . Let's here your twisted version of justiffied.

Nothing justifies violence, but simply you need to understand that all these attacks are direct result from US war loving foreign policy.

But what about Vietnam war by the way? In My Lai Massacre US soldiers shot over 300 civilians on purpose, and generally whole war would have been much shorter and less bloody if United States had stayed away from business of Vietnamese people.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
Someone has to play world cop when the rest of the world would rather stand by and let finatics dictate actions. The US has acted in the best interest of the UN or NATO in it's policies Did they teach you about WW2 or the Cold War at all in school?

NATO = United States and its little slaves. What about embargo of Cuba which was against UN policies? Nah, really US has been just committing war crimes all around while UN has mostly looked away.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
The people still got rid of him, You are basically calling the Egyptians weak, correct ?

Revolutions aren't that easy to do. Maybe Egyptians just didn't bother trying to rise against him until they got the spark from Arab spring. Or maybe unhappiness towards this dictator had grown all that time until it finally reached it breaking point when Arab spring came.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 57):
1)And Palestinians use children/adults carry bombs for their hate.2)Every week? Right.

Western propaganda.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3008 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 57):
1)And Palestinians use children/adults carry bombs for their hate.2)Every week? Right.

Western propaganda.

It is not propaganda when innocent people are killed.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 59):
It is not propaganda when innocent people are killed.

Palestinians use no one, suicide bombers make their own decision to do so.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2999 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 56):
You are basically calling the Egyptians weak, correct ?

Not weaker than the Americans who took 8 - 10 years to throw off the repressive superpower of their era. The Egyptians took about a year or so. I wonder why it took Americans so long to "choose" their own government when you say Muslims should be able to do it anytime they like and regardless of superpower interference in their home country?

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 53):
by regimes seeking to place the blame elsewhere.

The ability to point out problems in others which are much worse in oneself is most impressive. Or do you want to accept some responsibility for creating your own problems instead of putting the blame elsewhere?

Pu


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2991 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 61):
Not weaker than the Americans who took 8 - 10 years to throw off the repressive superpower of their era. The Egyptians took about a year or so. I wonder why it took Americans so long to "choose" their own government when you say Muslims should be able to do it anytime they like and regardless of superpower interference in their home country?

I see you are using your twisted logic again. I was facitiously asking. Meanwhile you go and compare apples to oranges. Please continue with your history lesson of which you have little facts

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
Nothing justifies violence, but simply you need to understand that all these attacks are direct result from US war loving foreign policy.

But what about Vietnam war by the way? In My Lai Massacre US soldiers shot over 300 civilians on purpose, and generally whole war would have been much shorter and less bloody if United States had stayed away from business of Vietnamese people.

War loving policy? Seriously, get over your self. Vietnam was a mistake of a war, but please show me how you jump in and justify it with the middle east?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
NATO = United States and its little slaves. What about embargo of Cuba which was against UN policies? Nah, really US has been just committing war crimes all around while UN has mostly looked away.

Your bias is showing through. Slaves? Seriously. Back it up with some facts instead of insane rhetoric. The Embargo of Cuba was due to strategic reasons. Some of which still exists, but you ignore how Castro rose to power .

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
Revolutions aren't that easy to do. Maybe Egyptians just didn't bother trying to rise against him until they got the spark from Arab spring. Or maybe unhappiness towards this dictator had grown all that time until it finally reached it breaking point when Arab spring came.

Either way, it wasn't the US responsiblity. It was the Egyptians.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 63):
Either way, it wasn't the US responsiblity. It was the Egyptians.

If US support of the repressive regimes throughout the Middle East (and Latin America) did not help the repressive regimes, please explain to what purpose US money and military aid served?


Pu


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 63):
The Embargo of Cuba was due to strategic reasons. Some of which still exists, but you ignore how Castro rose to power .

Castro rose to power through rightful revolution similar to ones happening in Middle East. Before him Cuba was ruled by evil tyrant Batista who was extremely corrupt and didn't care about his people. Castro has at least given his people proper healthcare and education when during times of Batista most Cubans lacked both of those and were also very poor while all the money went to US and small minority of rich Cubans.

Only problem US had with Castro was the fact that he wasn't corrupted like Batista was and thus stopped US corporations from freely molesting Cuban resources and workforce. Supporting dictators no matter how much crimes against their people they have done has never been problem to US. Compared to Batista and most US presidents Castro is like an angel.

[Edited 2012-09-26 13:46:57]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 64):
If US support of the repressive regimes throughout the Middle East (and Latin America) did not help the repressive regimes, please explain to what purpose US money and military aid served?

I can't explain it to people that have no concept of allegianced , alliances, priorities , and responsibilities . You pretend the cold war, and ww2 didn't happen.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 65):
Only problem US had with Castro was the fact that he wasn't corrupted like Batista was and thus stopped US corporations from freely molesting Cuban resources and workforce. Supporting dictators no matter how much crimes against their people they have done has never been problem to US. Compared to Batista and most US presidents Castro is like an angel.

yeah, well no. You have glossed over and forgotten how much money US businesses lost and were not compensated for, and also how many refugees were exhiled or killed. Or the continuing wave of refugees he tossed. I like how you are apologizing for a tryrant that deposed a tyrant. Your logic is wonderful.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2707 posts, RR: 8
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2957 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 64):
please explain to what purpose US money and military aid served?

So you do agree that we need to remove all foreign aid?


Egypt failed the Palestinians. They have used them as a pawn along with the Arab league since the beginning. They have no one to blame but themselves...



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 59):
It is not propaganda when innocent people are killed.

Palestinians use no one, suicide bombers make their own decision to do so.

NUTS!

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 57):
Quoting pu (Reply 6):

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether

Negative.

Is you're feeling before or after Palestinians exterminates Israel? You do realize that both sides have own the property through out history? Do you believe in a two states existence?You do believe the holocaust did happen?

You haven't answer these questions yet.Yes or no?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 66):

You pretend the cold war, and ww2 didn't happen

No, I just pretend the Cold War ended 21 years ago.

Those living in the "reality" that Cold War-era doctrine justifies the same behaviour of bribing foreign dictators today that it did back then get to reap their rewards: 9/11, embassy violence and widespread anti-US feeling.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 67):
Egypt failed the Palestinians. They have used them as a pawn along with the Arab league since the beginning. They have no one to blame but themselves...

If Egypt had been a democracy all these years, I would agree with you. Instead America kept Mubarek in power with money and guns as a bribe for his promise to leave Israel alone.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 66):
I can't explain it

Try reality.
.
America bought off dictators who promissed to cooperate with American security objectives. The fact that these dictators had to use US aid to keep their people repressed (since the people had no interest in helping America's security objectives) is a primary driver of anti-US sentiment.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 67):
So you do agree that we need to remove all foreign aid?

Just remove the perception that America is committd to helping Israel hurt Muslims.
.
If that means ending all foreign aid, fine with me. If that means America takes a tenth of its Iraq/Afghanistan war costs and instead spends money helping Egypt, Libya and eventually Syria recover from revolution (+decades of repression) by maybe building schools or providing a free internet service, that might go a long way towards calming anti-US feeling.

Pu


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 65):
Only problem US had with Castro was the fact that he wasn't corrupted like Batista was and thus stopped US corporations from freely molesting Cuban resources and workforce. Supporting dictators no matter how much crimes against their people they have done has never been problem to US. Compared to Batista and most US presidents Castro is like an angel.

And Stalin was just a misunderstood poet.

Riiiiight.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 69):
America bought off dictators who promissed to cooperate with American security objectives. The fact that these dictators had to use US aid to keep their people repressed (since the people had no interest in helping America's security objectives) is a primary driver of anti-US sentiment.

Really?
You forget the Cold War Ended, The Gulf War Began, the USS Colde. The 1st World Trade Center Bombing, Somaila, Bosnia, and a host of issues leading up to and beyond 9/11 but go on with your anit US Governement Rant. Everything was done as part of NATO and The UN. But please continue to ignore facts with your targeted hatred.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 71):
Everything was done as part of NATO and The UN.

Everything? None of these US policies are/were NATO and UN policies, in fact many are contrary to UN resolutions or the UN charter:

- providing Israel the weaponry to kill Muslims weekly & the money to defend settlements on Palestinian land
- keeping a brutal dictator in power in Egypt merely because he promissed not to harm Israel
- providing support for Saddam to kill Iranians
- propping up the undemocratic Saudi monarchy
- keeping the Shah in power in Iran, after earlier that year
-...overthrowing the democratically elected Mosaddegh regime in Iran
- selling arms to the repressive Iranian regime in return for funding the Nicaraguan contras
...and on and on.

Pu


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 51):
You blame US Policy for keeping regimes in place ? No , it was the citiizens of those countries that kept those regimes in place.
The US didn't get rid of their Dictators, the people did, and whether they are better off or not remains to be seen.
US Policies were for trade and very real war and NATO alliances with the existing governments. The power to Govern always comes from the citizens.

Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan (the Taliban rose from US-funded militants), and even Saudi Arabia all wave hello, as do at least a dozen other countries outside of the Muslim world. In my humble opinion the only thing preventing Pakistan from blowing itself apart and subsequently being steamrolled by India or completely beholden to the Chinese is the US aid. Frankly I'm not sure which option is worse, dealing with the two-faced Pakistani government (paging Osama bin Laden, you're wanted at Pakistani military headquarters) or letting them kill each other.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 53):
So how did the Iranians dispose of the Shah in 1979?

They shouldn't have needed to do so. They DID kick him out in 1953, replacing him with a regime that wasn't a lapdog, but still would've been much friendlier to the United States than the subsequent loons that are running the show today and a US-backed coup put him back in power.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 54):
US government has been playing world police also when all of those attacks happened, all of those attacks 100% fault of US politics.

We are also simultaneously and almost immediately called to help whenever something goes afoul. And then we're blamed when things aren't perfect. I'd be perfectly content to keep my tax dollars at HOME and give it to people who aren't so inclined to bite the hand that feeds them.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
UN has mostly looked away.

The UN is an impotent circle jerk, and has been since the Korean War.

Quoting pu (Reply 69):
No, I just pretend the Cold War ended 21 years ago.

You shouldn't. We're seeing the effects of the Proxy Wars between the United States and the USSR still, and will be for quite some time. How convenient that the USSR no longer exists to clean up their share of the spill and take their share of the blame. We're still dealing with the fallout of European Colonialism, so Cold War ramifications are nowhere near done.

[Edited 2012-09-26 15:08:29]

User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 72):
Pu

Once again,I ask you.Do you agree to a two state existence between the Israel and Palestine in which each will recognize each other?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 71):
targeted hatred

When people critisise my actions or my government's, I don't think in childish terms and announce that they hate me. So why do you accuse me of hatred? A person who is critical of a country's policy does not mean they hate that country.

Critisising Obama doesn't mean you are a racist.
Critisising Israel doesn't mean you are anti-semitic.
Critisising US foreign policy doesn't mean someone has "hatred" for America.

Might I suggest embracing a more nuanced approach to both your personal and international relationships that doesn't have just two categories: love/hate?

Another point: just because a US policy was a justifiable decision to promote US interests does NOT mean there are no negative consequences from it or that the rest of the world has to overlook it merely because it was right for America at the time. Everyone already knows why American policy was what it was. Now you might consider the many costs these policies extracted from nonAmericans and recognise you have a great opportunity to rectify the damage done to the those foreigners who involuntarily suffered because of US foreign policy - even if the policy was justifiable at the time.

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 74):

See post 15


User currently offlineNW747400 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 58):
But what about Vietnam war by the way? In My Lai Massacre US soldiers shot over 300 civilians on purpose, and generally whole war would have been much shorter and less bloody if United States had stayed away from business of Vietnamese people.

You make an excellent point. We committed many atrocities and certainly killed hundreds of thousands of people (Cambodians, Laotians, and Vietnamese). Thus, by the logic of many on this thread (i.e. we get attacked because of our past foreign policy failures) we should be getting attacked by these people today, right? If radical Islamists attack us for our "foreign policy failures" alone why are the Vietnamese not attacking the US today (you know because they are still so bitter about what happened 50 years ago). To say that the anger at the U.S. in the middle east is a sole result of American foreign policy is at best naive. There are many factors that are responsible for the attitude to the middle east towards Americans.

One factor effecting opinions of the U.S. is that a small number of individuals in the middle east have convinced a segment of the population that all of their problems (poverty for example) are due to the U.S. For example, poor living conditions and poverty are the result of a complex set of factors (as are most problems in every country) that cannot be simplified into just one problem. Some in the middle east (radical Islamists) have taken advantage of a segment of the population that is under educated and disenfranchised, and told them that all their problems are all the fault of the U.S. This is obviously untrue because major problems (such as poverty) are rarely caused by only one factor, but when people are in a desperate situation it is often easier to simplify the problem and come up with a single cause. These radical Islamsits have perpetuated the myth that if the U.S. would just disappear all of these people's problems would be solved. I am not absolving the U.S. of its foreign policy failures (i.e. the Shah) that have certainly not helped quell the anti-U.S. sentiment;however,it is naive at best to assume that the anti-U.S. opinion in the middle east is do only to American foreign policy. I think some posters on this board are anti-U.S. (which is their right) so they look for evidence to confirm their already existing opinion of the U.S. as a big bad bully instead of actually looking objectively at the facts.
NW747400


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

So,the answer is no.Which means that the "Final" solution on Israel by all the gang tackling Arab nations is approved.That no one in the Arab world is willing to give up land or reach "peaceful" solution,is that right?

American public is tried of decades and decades and decades and decades of bloodshed between Palestinians-Israel.Then America's policies are correct.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Pu, Pvjin, I agree with much of what you say, but I think it's wise to acknowledge some of what our US posters are saying. It does sound a bit one sided when no mention is made of the wrongs the Palestinians did.

Palestine does:
*harbor terrorist organizations
*periodically launch missiles into civilian neighborhoods
*produce suicide bomb attacks on bombs and nightclubs

Again, acknowledging these wrong, unwarranted actions does not clear Israel of blame. Both sides share the blame. I can see how some US posters see one-sidedness, you must understand their gripes before you can effectively address them. JMO... I think it would remove a disconnect that is going on between you and them



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 77):

we should be getting attacked by these people today, right

No.
And this is the really hard part for some to undertsand: different cultures are, well, different. You can't have the same policy in place for every country and expect equal results.
Different peoples react differently to different aggressions.
.
Let me use this example just to piss even more people off: you invade France. Within a few weeks everything settles down and you've got 3 French girlfriends and all the wine and cheese your reichsmarks can buy. They even start joining your army and help you run things under your new rules.
BUT
You invade Afghanistan for the 100th time in its history and experience a never-ending fiasco of disasters, changing loyalties and an indifferent poplpulation, the whole place just sucks and there is no end in sight.
.
So, yeah, America's glorious liberation of Vietnam from the Vietnamese didn't turn them into America-hating terrorists....but if they would have had billion$ in oil wealth siphoned into a few zealots and radicals, then I bet there might have been some more blowback from that effective exercise in spreading democracy. Different circumstances, different cultures, different reactions.

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 79):

Yes, of course blowing up airplanes etc. is wrong. But I would be a little careful about throwing around the terrorism term considering the number of civilians Israel has killed versus Israelis dead at the hands of Palestinians (the ratio is about 10:1). Every Israeli citizen is a member of the IDF, btw. If given F-16s and F-35s by America, Perhaps the Palestinians would be happy to attack only Israeli military targets so as to avoid the 'terrorist' moniker.

The Palestinians have managed their predicament badly by resorting to violence. They should have hired a flashy PR firm to sell their case directly to the American people, because their story is hard to ignore.

BUT, understanding and explaining their actions is NOT the same as condoning them. I can understand and explain why a husband shoots the man he catches cheating with his wife, but not condone it. Likewise, its worthwhile to understand their justifications and motivations, and to even explain them....but this does not mean approval.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-26 17:26:34]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 81):
But I would be a little careful about throwing around the terrorism term considering the number of civilians Israel has killed versus Israelis dead at the hands of Palestinians (the ratio is about 10:1)

Yes but you have to when you're dealing with someone who is more heavily pro-Israel. Ignoring or only mentioning them briefly, as we have seen, gets many on their side defensive, as they should IMO, because no crimes should be ignored, especially ones "against their side." Once you gain their trust and show that you understand their gripes, then you can insert more of your data on deaths and all. I don't know, I'm not a psychology major but it's helped me communicate better

Quoting pu (Reply 81):
The Palestinians have managed their predicament badly by resorting to violence.

You know this, I know you know this, but if you threw this out a bit more I think you're alleviate a lot of aggression towards your posts

Quoting pu (Reply 81):
BUT, understanding and explaining their actions is NOT the same as condoning them.

Agreed, but one must be careful in explaining it. On this very issue, to my family and friends, I often give them the notion that I'm condoning terrorism even when I carefully word it. You really gotta over do it


Don't get me wrong, I agree with many of your posts. I used to be in the boat of many of these posters so I understand exactly what they're thinking and the communication disconnect you are having with them. I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just offering it to you so I can help you get your point across more effectively because I think it's a point many Americans have never really been logically exposed to and one they don't quite understand. I know that because I only became more open minded when I heard these arguments in a less confrontational way that was basically spoon fed to me



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 77):
One factor effecting opinions of the U.S. is that a small number of individuals in the middle east have convinced a segment of the population that all of their problems (poverty for example) are due to the U.S

True enough.
But compare that to the number of Americans convinced by a small segment of the population that all their big problems (terrorism for example) are due to the forces of 'radical islam'. So both sides share a good measure of not taking enough responsibility for the problems they themselves created.
.
My revolutionary and innovative solution: Americans accept that half their problems in the Muslim world are/were caused by America itself. Behind clothes doors, people like Mursi and the new leaders of Libya/Syria admit to the US president that Muslims are responsible for half their problems with America. (But it will take awhile to ease their public into this mindset)
.
Mursi is a windfall for America, its a great opportunity to settle the whole Middle East Conflict once and for all.

Pu


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 82):

Thanks, you are a kind and caring man. I'll try to write better.

Pu


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3866 posts, RR: 14
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

I don't know if Moursi necessarily likes America--he's said some pretty slanderous things about the country--but he will definitely be someone to watch. He also belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood--not exactly the most U.S. friendly political party.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Egypt's new president, Mr Mursi warns the US, that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.

There is a rational basis for anti-US sentiment--but U.S. support of the Israelis over the Palestinians as a basis for muslim anger is pretty much a product of arab and muslim statesmen, who have used the Israelis and the Jews as the great rallying point as a way of directing the anger from the masses that should be directed towards their leaders for their horrible economic situations and loss of freedoms. the U.S. support of Israelis versus the Palestinians is basically a boogeyman, because if one looked at the circumstances, the U.S. is arguably more supportive of the Palestinians than many of the Palestinians' self-proclaimed friends and allies in the arab and muslim world. Arab and Muslim statesmen may support the Palestinians in word, but not in deed--in recent years, Jordan has begun terminating citizenship rights for people of Palestinian descent that were born and lived their entire lives in Jordan.

What I'm trying to say is that if we could imagine a hypothetical world where Israel never existed, the arab world would still hate the U.S.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
Fourth, stating that the US financial support of Israel has caused a Muslim anger towards the US somehow misses the many billions given to many of those nations as well.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 9):
Foreign aid perhaps used to work but now the US is just allowing themselves to be extorted by bands of thugs

Here's the problem with foreign aid: the majority of it gets delivered to the government, and the masses generally don't see a cent of it--which means the masses dont have any financial incentive in supporting the U.S. And if you are a democratically elected government, or are afraid of being overthrown by a popular uprising, then you ignore where the checks are coming from, and focus on appeasing the masses. Certain countries, like Pakistan are in a perfect position--the U.S. simply is not gonna win there--because the Pakistanis know that the U.S. needs their help/access to their territory in order to stamp out al-qaeda, and they have a geographically advantageous position.

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
Use American power to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once and for all. This is nowhere near as bad a conflict as the ones America has won before, it can be done

Look at your choice of language here--winning conflicts is a hell of lot different, and much simpler, than resolving conflicts, which is what the U.S. wants to do with Israel-Palestine. The U.S. could indeed win that conflict in favor of one side or the other, but trying to resolve the conflict is a completely different matter--resolving a conflict means trying to appease both sides so that both can come back to their respective homes feeling vindicated.

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands, and if either they or the Palestinians won't come to terms or violate the negotiated settlement - let the chips fall where they may without US intervention,

Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands? Have you been following the recent news about Netanyahu and Obama--its pretty clear Israel does not need U.S. support--it may want U.S. validation, but the country is a standalone nation, capable of providing for itself. And if the U.S. doesn't supply it with certain things that it needs or wants, Israel can always go to China--which they have done so in the past.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
In addition, judging by the way Muslims treat each other in accordance with the Koran I'm astonished that America is seen as the absolute evil, but I'm not likely to win that argument in a room full of uneducated Muslims who simply believe what their mullah told them, just as I'm unlikely to win an argument in a room full of barely-high school educated Baptists.

Bread and Circuses--much either to blame and point the finger at others than to take responsibility for your own actions. Indeed, I have Muslim friends who posted a cartoon on their facebook profiles illustrating the absurdity of how there are riots in response to a film that didn't hurt anyone physically, but there are no riots or demonstrations of popular outrage against the Syrian government, responsible for intentionally killing Muslims.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
The leasers in the regions need to stop blaming events 70 years in the past for their failures to find solutions for the future.

That path would be far too difficult for some of the non-elected leaders-and would most likely result in them losing the power that they crave and want. Similarly, democratically elected leaders lack the incentive to take responsibility, because that provides an easy point for an opposition leader to campaign against.

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
There is a widespread feeling among the nonAmerican world that the average American has no clue as to the lengthy laundry list of provocations the USA has flung unto the Arab-Muslim world for ~50 years.
Quoting pu (Reply 69):
Those living in the "reality" that Cold War-era doctrine justifies the same behaviour of bribing foreign dictators today that it did back then get to reap their rewards: 9/11, embassy violence and widespread anti-US feeling.

Some Americans, Pu, actually are well aware of the U.S.' long history in the Middle East, dating back to the pre-Revolutionary war era (fun fact: Morocco was the first country to recognize the U.S. as an independent nation). There is most certainly a rational basis for the Muslim and Arab world to hate the U.S. because our post WWII involvement in the area has seen some pretty bad screwups. The essential problem was that the U.S. has generally seen the middle east as pawns as part of a strategy on a grander scale focused on enemies or aims that were more pressing--which meant supporting leaders that were horrible to their own people, but nice and friendly to U.S. officials. Our history in Iran is tragically comical in just how shortsighted it was--overthrowing a popularly elected leader bc of fears he was a soviet sympathizer, then supporting a monarchy that was oblivious to the needs of its own people. We were too focused on hard power, not soft power because of the nature of the Cold War--and were not looking out for the average Arab or Muslim citizen. And our failure to engage in soft power efforts during the Cold War is what is now biting us in the rear-end.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 23):
No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?
Quoting luckyone (Reply 38):
An estimated 1,000,000 Jews were expelled or left various communities in the Muslim world between the end of World War 2 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973.

People forget about this--the Jewish exodus from Muslim lands after WWII that had property confiscated, were attacked, and all but formally expelled from places they had lived in for hundreds of years. They are as much refugees as the Palestinians are.

Quoting okees (Reply 20):
Coming from Jordan I can tell you a lot of it is given as weapons, scholarships, medical aid, bribes and what not,

Bribes in what form? I'm not saying such activity does occur, but you will have to be more specific because the US has very strict anti-bribery legislation in the form of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.


User currently offlineNW747400 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 83):
True enough.
But compare that to the number of Americans convinced by a small segment of the population that all their big problems (terrorism for example) are due to the forces of 'radical islam'. So both sides share a good measure of not taking enough responsibility for the problems they themselves created.
.

I've never met anyone in the U.S. that would say that radical Islam is the root of all of our problems (that would be preposterous). What some in the U.S. might say is that currently radical Islam is the greatest foreign threat to our security, and I think that assertion is correct at this point it time (things always change and it might be different 5 years from now).

I agree that many American's do not want to take responsibility for our past foreign policy failures in the middle east; however, saying that radical Islam does not present a threat to the U.S. is niave. Islamic radicals use their religious authority to trick the uneducated into believing all of their problems are due to the U.S. They then convince these people to attack the U.S. because if the U.S. doesn't exist (at all or at least in its present form) neither will their problems. Thus the Islamic radicals present two problems.

First, by lying and saying all problems are due to the U.S. they distract away from solving the real problems related to current conditions in the middle east. If those in the middle east are not even talking about the real problems, because they are distracted by the U.S. scapegoating, there is little hope of solving the real problems. The second problem with Islamic radicals is that they put the U.S. in a no win situation. When the Islamic radicals attack the U.S. we can either do nothing (not defending yourself is typically not a good idea) or we defend ourselves and the Islamic radicals just have more evidence of "U.S. meddling." Now we can argue all day about how much "defending ourselves" is necessary but the bottom line is the U.S. strategy of little retaliation that were a staple of the 1990s did not work. I'm not saying that the invasion of Afghanistan was flawlessly executed but there clearly needed to be a shift in the way we dealt with the threat posed by terrorists.


User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

What Morsi has been saying has already been said many times over. It is to some extent the stance Mubarak used to pay lip service to. Some people have pointed out that Morsi's Western 'credentials' make him more balanced. However, it is no secret that some of the most extremist Islamists spent time in, or have connections with the West. A notorious example was Salafist presidential candidate Hazem Abu Ismail, whose mother was naturalized US citizen (which disqualified him from the presidential race) and had family living abroad.
Of course, it can be strongly argued that from a historical perspective, it was Europe that sowed the seeds for the most enduring Middle Eastern conflict. However, Arab regimes since then are also accountable for their own actions, and the West/Iran is overused as a scapegoat for many of our problems.
My own personal estimation is that Morsi/the current political leadership lacks the imagination to create any viable solutions. They have been able to pinpoint the problems (which anyone can do), but they either defer the problem or create a short-term, temporary solution, or do nothing at all. Egypt has been facing internal security issues, a gas shortage, a proposed/rumored hike in the price of petrol (from 1.85 pounds per litre to 2.85), infrastructural problems, a weak tourism industry, and a very bloated and static educational sector. Morsi has not begun addressing any of these things.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hey PU, you ignored this..

Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
How many Muslims killed by Muslims?
Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,yet it was a multi national(and multi cultural) response to unprovoked agression against an Islamic nation.. by another "Islamic" state.

You quote(in a later post) the VietNam experience and examples such as My Lai, an atrocity by any measure and one of many.. on both sides.
Perhaps it is an Asian thing, perhaps the following generation of Vietnamese have accepted the fact that there were atrocities committed by both sides and have moved on, maybe forgiven, maybe not.

The problem with the cultures of the Middle East is they are incapable of this, something that happened, decades, centuries.. perhaps millenia ago is justification for ongoing hostility.

In addition anything said, written or acted against their "faith" is an affront that must be responded to with violence.. no margin for tolerance or acceptance of others opinion... until that is learned they will remain outliers in a civilised world.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 75):
When people critisise my actions or my government's, I don't think in childish terms and announce that they hate me. So why do you accuse me of hatred?

See your below myopic one sided littanly list of complaints. Perhaps hatred was the wrong word. More like, deeply biased agtagonistic vieweing of the US actions withough thoughtful analysis of the full picture in history.

Quoting pu (Reply 72):
- providing Israel the weaponry to kill Muslims weekly & the money to defend settlements on Palestinian land
- keeping a brutal dictator in power in Egypt merely because he promissed not to harm Israel
- providing support for Saddam to kill Iranians
- propping up the undemocratic Saudi monarchy
- keeping the Shah in power in Iran, after earlier that year
-...overthrowing the democratically elected Mosaddegh regime in Iran
- selling arms to the repressive Iranian regime in return for funding the Nicaraguan contras
...and on and on.
Quoting pu (Reply 75):
Might I suggest embracing a more nuanced approach to both your personal and international relationships that doesn't have just two categories: love/hate?

I don't have a two sided approach. I recognize their are nuances to extremely difficult situations , unlile the same group of folks in this trhead that constantly jump on and say " poor palestinans", bad US , bad israel.

Quoting pu (Reply 75):
Everyone already knows why American policy was what it was. Now you might consider the many costs these policies extracted from nonAmericans and recognise you have a great opportunity to rectify the damage done to the those foreigners who involuntarily suffered because of US foreign policy - even if the policy was justifiable at the time.

The us already does all of these things. It is the view of the rest of the world that the US is there to meddle. But please enlightenme on what the real evil CRUEL reason that Ambassador Christopher Stephens and team were undertaking in Libya. Or what the Embassy's in Yemen and Egypt have been doing ?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 89):
The us already does all of these things. It is the view of the rest of the world that the US is there to meddle. But please enlightenme on what the real evil CRUEL reason that Ambassador Christopher Stephens and team were undertaking in Libya. Or what the Embassy's in Yemen and Egypt have been doing ?

Well both of those embassies represent US government in general, I guess that's what causes people to attack them, not what people in those particular embassies have been doing.

[Edited 2012-09-27 08:20:05]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 90):
Well both of those embassies represent US government in general, I guess that's what causes people to attack them, not what people in those particular embassies have been doing.

But once again, what policies were these folks enforcing?
Stephens was trying to help the Lybyans.

The situations are nuanced, and it once again highlights to me that Pu's vision is more black and while , good and evil , than anything the US does in practice. And it is a Veiw that is perpetuated by ignorance and misinformation.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 91):
But once again, what policies were these folks enforcing?
Stephens was trying to help the Lybyans.

Yes, but especially many uneducated Muslims do see US interfering and wars around Middle East area & support towards Israel, a country discriminating Palestinians as acts of war against their religion when in fact these attacks happened because of political and economical reasons.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Instead of defending mistakes and attacking crtitics of American foreign policy
...and trying to defend your side while attacking the other side,
thinking Americans admit:

Quoting us330 (Reply 85):
There is most certainly a rational basis for the Muslim and Arab world to hate the U.S. because our post WWII involvement in the area has seen some pretty bad screwups.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-27 10:03:36]

User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2640 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 93):
Instead of defending mistakes and attacking crtitics of American foreign policy
...and trying to defend your side while attacking the other side,
thinking Americans admit:

Thinking americans defend thier countires policies , when they are not the cause of the directed angst towards the US.
If people hate the US for supporting Israel, then they are hating the US for the wrong reason. Israel was formed as a country and did so in the past under circumstances that are far from black and white. The middle east is angry at the US for the Camp David Accords? those were treaties signed to keep fighting from spreading even further , and possbily the Israel borders. The 1st Gulf War? Where the US and UN came in to defend Kuwait against invaseion?

Thinking Americans don't accept the fact that the US involvement causes hatred, especially when it has been done for the right reasons. The hatred is caused by those that don't like what is going on and find the US a convenient scape goat for issues not always related to US polices.

[Edited 2012-09-27 10:39:08]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 81):
Every Israeli citizen is a member of the IDF,

This is true when they are actually serving. You only have to give 3 years of service. If they are not active at the time then they are not soldiers. Also, were the children they killed considered soldiers?

Quoting pu (Reply 81):
The Palestinians have managed their predicament badly by resorting to violence. They should have hired a flashy PR firm to sell their case directly to the American people, because their story is hard to ignore

Truthfully, the Palestinian PR machine is very strong and very well run. This is where the Israelis fail miserably.


User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

And then Hamas rolls in and does this beauty.....

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-boycotts...chalit-tickets-155641177--spt.html

Hamas is launching a media boycott of Barcelona after reports the Spanish league leader gave a complimentary ticket for an upcoming match to an Israeli soldier formerly held captive by militants in the Gaza Strip.


Classy.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 96):
Hamas is launching a media boycott of Barcelona after reports the Spanish league leader gave a complimentary ticket for an upcoming match to an Israeli soldier formerly held captive by militants in the Gaza Strip.

And folks wonder why Palestine can't get a peace treaty signed? This is the Government they expect to run a country of peace?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
And folks wonder why Palestine can't get a peace treaty signed? This is the Government they expect to run a country of peace?

No one is denying the Palestinians have and continued to make bad moves. It is the recognition of the faults of the Israelis that people are trying to get across. I think we can agree that what is happening now is NOT working (obviously) so we need to rethink our position. What is that saying, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity? (Continuing these policies with Israel and expecting peace all of the sudden is, well, insane!)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 98):
It is the recognition of the faults of the Israelis that people are trying to get across.

No one denies faults with the Israeli's , but they are our ally, and they are the ones that have folks surrounding them on that would rather seem them anihialated than negoiate peace. It makes the peace process and rational discussions with Hezbollah, Palestine, , and Iran a bit difficult. These types of statements out of "elected: officials in Hamas only cement the point that the peace process is no closer now than it has ever been. especially with folks like that in charge.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
but they are our ally

So they should probably the most receptive to what we have to say, even if the truth isn't exactly what to hear, correct?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
they are the ones that have folks surrounding them on that would rather seem them anihialated than negoiate peace

   Does that give them a right to do some of the stuff they are doing to the Palestinians?? The ironic part is that if they treated the Palestinians better a lot of the hatred of Israel would go away. Many groups and nations don't mention the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians just for the heck of it

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
It makes the peace process and rational discussions with Hezbollah, Palestine, , and Iran a bit difficult. These types of statements out of "elected: officials in Hamas only cement the point that the peace process is no closer now than it has ever been. especially with folks like that in charge.

I agree, and no one really knows the best course of action to get anywhere. I can tell you that upsetting the Palestinians and the Muslim world is probably not the best course of action.


I don't see anyone rational advocating for very much--treat the Palestinians citizens better. There's much that goes into it but it can be accomplished relatively painlessly without jeopardizing the security of Israel.

What do you recommend the best course of action to be? Surely you must think that Israel needs to change some of it's behavior (right?) and that doesn't make you anti-Israel



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
So they should probably the most receptive to what we have to say, even if the truth isn't exactly what to hear, correct?

Yes, and that is why the US has tried to help negotiate, countless times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
Does that give them a right to do some of the stuff they are doing to the Palestinians?? The ironic part is that if they treated the Palestinians better a lot of the hatred of Israel would go away. Many groups and nations don't mention the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians just for the heck of it

the problem here in, is that the Israreli's are forced to do what the Hamas government and past PLO/other governments haven't done, and that is police the territory. It isn't pretty, and I am not saying it is fair to the palestinians, but the problem is that the terrorists keep lobbing missles over, so everyone becomes a suspect. Kind of like the TSA and Grandma pat downs.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
What do you recommend the best course of action to be? Surely you must think that Israel needs to change some of it's behavior (right?) and that doesn't make you anti-Israel

The only real solution is a two state solution, and unfortunately their are far too many on both sides that won't let it happen.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 102, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 94):
Thinking americans defend thier countires policies , when they are not the cause of the directed angst towards the US.

Just because Karl Rove used the fear of terrorism as a political tool to scare some voters into voting for Bush in 2004 does not mean the terrorism never took place or that the theat was nonexistent.

Likewise, just because some in the Middle East use the profound harm caused by US policies and US wars in the Middle East to distract their people from other problems does not mean that the US wars and policies are not harmful.

America and its proxy have killed a couple hundred thousand Muslims in the last few years, supplied weapons and money to brutally repressive dictators and -understandably-the Muslims are angry about it. And, lke people everywhere, they are rational and react angrily only when they have been harmed .

Own the damage done so the US can move on.


Pu


User currently offlineNW747400 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2560 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 102):
And, lke people everywhere, they are rational and react angrily only when they have been harmed .

I would disagree that they react rationally. Like we discussed previously, the Vietnamese reacted rationally. A significant proportion people in the middle east tend to not react rationally to things they don't like (i.e. threatening the life of anyone who dares defame muhammad. That's not rational, period. Ramming planes into buildings is not rational, period. I don't care what someone else has done to you there is no excuse for targeting innocent civilians. I have said numerous times during this thread that America has made its share of mistakes in our policies regarding the middle east. What I fail to understand is that we have had many policy failings in other parts of the world (i.e. Vietnam) and yet the citizens there do not fly planes into our buildings. What's the difference? In my opinion they don't do that because they are rational and get on with their lives without blaming the U.S. for every single problem they have, unlike a significant proportion of the populations of some middle eastern countries. The U.S. can admit all day that we have had past failures (i.e. the Shah), but if the people of the middle east are not willing to be rational and voice there concerns in rational ways, then our admitting mistakes does no good.
NW747400


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 104, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 103):

I would disagree that they react rationally

This is a common problem: making judgments based on what you see on TV versus properly acconting for the 99.9% of Muslims who never make it on TV. Your mindset is equivalent to someone thinking all Americans are child-killing sadists because someone shoots up a movie theater or post office in America every few months.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 103):
A significant proportion people in the middle east tend to not react rationally

How exactly are you able to perceive how a "significant proportion" of Arab-Muslims react to defaming Muhammad? Do you have special access into the households of a billion Muslims the rest of us don't? A significant proportion of Muslims REACT[ED] IN NO NOTICEABLE WAY to offending Muhammad, 99.99% of them in fact. Look beyond FoxNews or even the BBC.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 103):
What I fail to understand is that we have had many policy failings in other parts of the world (i.e. Vietnam) and yet the citizens there do not fly planes into our buildings. What's the difference?

Are you that really that obtuse?
"We killed 2 million+ Vietnamese with nothing to show for it, how come everyone else in the world doesn't act like the Vietnamese and not try to retaliate for it when we bring uninvited death and destruction to their country?
ANSWER: Give the massive wealth shipped to the Middle East in oil money to Ho Chi Minh, and I'm thinking you would have seen your retaliation on US soil. Vietnam was a poor nation of rice famers barely able to feed themselves.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 103):

The U.S. can admit all day that we have had past failures (i.e. the Shah), but if the people of the middle east are not willing to be rational and voice there concerns in rational ways, then our admitting mistakes does no good
Negative.
America gains from admitting its mistakes whether or not Muslims conform to your notions of the correct way to voice anti-US sentiment.
.
When I was a banker, we hired a Japanese management consultant for a few weeks for advice. (very fashionable at the time-late 1980s)...
.
...Among many other useful practices we learned was adopting the attitude of not fixing blame and instead fixing the problem.. This also means taking ownwership of problems you did not cause and in order to soothe childish egos takng blame for things not really your fault. . . it worked great and problems that previosuly took months and years to solve took only a few days or weeks.
.
So get over the ego damage of taking blame. Take responsibility for problems you did not cause. America has many attractive qualities, people and products that would be eagerly embraced by Muslims....but being on the receiving end of US weaponry and US blame-mongering is not one of them.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-27 17:56:05]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 105, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 104):
A significant proportion of Muslims REACT[ED] IN NO NOTICEABLE WAY to offending Muhammad, 99.99% of them in fact.

And some get persecuted for it...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Lates...y-for-not-protesting-Muhammad-film

Pakistani man accused of blasphemy for not protesting Muhammad film
A Pakistani businessman who declined to take part in protests over an anti-Islam film now faces charges of blasphemy, which in Pakistan carries a death sentence.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 106, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 104):
Do you have special access into the households of a billion Muslims the rest of us don't?

Well, it seems throughout this thread that YOU have special access to the thoughts and feelings of the ENTIRE WORLD:

Quoting pu (Reply 1):
Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11

and

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims

and

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
Among the 300 million who know the relevant facts I don't think I know of many who remain on the "don't get it" side.

and

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The world sees Israel as the place where Europe dumped its unwanted post WW2 refugees

and

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The world sees the US as bankrolling Israel because of an odd and recent convergence of 3 forces

and

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want

and

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):
I struggle with the one-sidedness of it all
I think thats based in part on an understandable pride in being an American.

and

Quoting pu (Reply 52):
Now they're still angry about America fighting against them for 50+ years. The whole world sees it....

I really don't know how to converse with someone that speaks for the world and seems fit to approach a dialogue the way you have here.

I agree with a number of your points. Unfortunately, the way you choose to present it is such a turn-off that I think its doomed to failure. There's a clear point-of-view that you articulate that is very difficult to get past. Yes, as an American.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):Can you quantify that? That's a legitimate question as apparently you know and I don't really have any idea.

It actually came up in another thread, but of course I can't find it now, and I can't remember off hand........

But a quick look and I came up with these numbers.... Mind boggling don't you think ?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/11/...-aid-to-israel-feeding-the-cuckoo/

How many other country's have received so much US assistance that you heard of ?

Thanks, but I was looking for a comparison of aid given to Israel versus aid given to its neighbors. I'll go look to see if I can find something online.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2707 posts, RR: 8
Reply 107, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 106):
Thanks, but I was looking for a comparison of aid given to Israel versus aid given to its neighbors. I'll go look to see if I can find something online.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32260.pdf

Gives a view from 1950 onward..



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 108, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
And some get persecuted for it...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Lates...y-for-not-protesting-Muhammad-film

Pakistani man accused of blasphemy for not protesting Muhammad film
A Pakistani businessman who declined to take part in protests over an anti-Islam film now faces charges of blasphemy, which in Pakistan carries a death sentence.

Yeah that's how it is in Pakistan, but thankfully there still are many rational Muslim countries out there. I doubt this would happen in places like Indonesia where there are significant minorities (or in some island majorities) of non Muslims who are allowed to practice their religion.

Again I think this is also a cultural thing, in some countries mainstream Islam is way more liberal than in others.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2707 posts, RR: 8
Reply 109, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 108):
I doubt this would happen in places like Indonesia where there are significant minorities (or in some island majorities) of non Muslims who are allowed to practice their religion.

Yes Indonesia loves Christians....


Muslim attacks on Indonesian Christian Churches in 2010
Herewith is the list of attacks on Christian Churches in Indonesia of last year :


Quote:
1. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Protestant Christian Church in Pesanggrahan, Depok, West Java Province In March 2009 the Lord Mayor of Depok of the Islamist “Justice and Prosperous” party revoked the building licence of the church. The church authority brought the case to the State Administrative Court in the provincial capital city of West Java, Bandung and the church had won the case but the Lord Mayor made an appeal. But again the church won the case and started with building activities. We learnt that the police had to protect the building activities of the church due protest from radical Muslims in the neighbourhood.

2. “Gereja Katolik Stasi Santa Maria” or Saint Mary Catholic parish church in Purwakarta in the province of West Java. The church was told by the local authority to stop the building of the church in October 2009 because the local authority was afraid of the local radical Muslim groups. The local bishop of Bandung had set up a lawyers team who brought the case to the State Administrative Court in the provincial capital city of Bandung and the church had won the case. Until this report is made the church is still waiting the green light of the court to start with the building works.

3. “Gereja Katolik Santo Johanes Baptista” Church or Catholic Parish church of Saint John Baptist in Parung, Bogor in the province of West Java. The parish was prohibited to celebrate Easter in 2008. During Christmas 2009 the parishioners were forced to celebrate Christmas in a nearby government building and not in their own premise The church was disturbed during the Easter season 2010 and the church was not allowed to celebrate the holy mass on Accession Day of Christ on May 13th, 2010 on their premise.During last Christmas season the church had celebrated the holy mass in a nearby Catholic school because the parishioners were not allowed to do it on their own premise The parish has more than 3,000 betherns.It is already long time ago that the church made application to get a building licence to build their own church. In 2005 the local authorities had refused to issue a building permit for the church. There is a radical cleric from the local Muslim Ulama Council who is always against the church.

4. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Christian Protetstant Church “Filadelfia” in Tambun, Bekasi, West Java Province The church was disturebed by radical Muslims on the very day of Christmas on December 25th, 2009. Later the local authorities have closed down the church and the Christians have to celebrate their Sunday services on the street in front of their closed premise. The church brought their case to the State Administrative Court and the church had won the case. But the local authorities made an appeal. On Saturady, September 25th, 2010 the church was visited by a high official of German Protestant Church from Hannover, Germany. During last Christmas season of 2010 the church made the celebration under temporary tents due to rainy season in front of their closed premise.

5. “Gereja Kristen Baptist Jakarta” Church or Baptist Christian Church of Jakarta in Tangerang with its young pastor Rev. Bedali Hulu It is already for years the church gets troubles from local authorities and from the radical Muslims in their neighbourhood. The church was not allowed to do the Sunday service in their house of worship. The pastor got a threat on his life last year and I had to ask the police for help. The church could only celebrate the last Christmas under heavy police protection.

6. “Gereja Kristen Pasundan” Church or Pasundan Christian Church in Ciranjang, Cianjur, West Java Province had difficulties in obtaining its building permit.

7. “Gereja Kristen Indonesia” Church or Indonesian Christian Church in Ciranjang, Cianjur, West Java Province had difficulties in obtaining its bulding permit.

8. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church in Pondok Timur, Bekasi, West Java Province was threatened by local authorities to be closed down on January 5th, 2010. In July the authorities have sealed the church so that the congregation had to do the Sunday service on a piece of empty land owned by the church in the nearby Ciketing, Bekasi But almost every Sunday the congragation was attacked by radical Muslims from the neighbourhood. The most dramatic attack was on Sunday, September 12th, 2010 in the morning when the congregation members were on their way to the empty land in Ciketing for Sunday service. The attackers came on motor cicles and stabbed an elder of the congregation on his stomach and wounded his heart 3cm. The elder name is Mr. Sihombing, 50 year old. The lady Pastor of the congregationRev. Luspida Simanjuntak was beaten on her head and back. The tragic attack happened during the Muslim Idl Fitri Festivities after the end of tha fasting month of Ramadhan.Actually it was the time of peace and joy for the Indonesian society but anyhow the tragic attack on the Christian congregation had happened.The government took quick action to cath the attackers. The International Community’s made also strong reactions against the attack. In the joint statement between Indonesian Foreign Minister and the US Secretary of State in September 2010 the Americans put their concerns about the attack on the Christian Church in Bekasi. Since the end of September 2010 the congregation celebrates the Sunday servie in a government building uder police protection, which could only accomodate 100 people. The church has a congregation of 300 people. During a meeting with government officials early November 2010 I was told that the land promised by the Lord Mayor of Bekasi for the church was still uncertain. I have told the matter to the pastor and the lawyer of the church. End of September last year the church was visited by a high official of the German Protestant Church from Hannover, Germany. Now 13 attackers of the church are being put on trial in the court in Bekasi.

9. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Protestant Christian Church in Sibuhun, Tapanuli Selatan, North Sumatera Province was burnt down by fanatic Muslims on January 22nd, 2010 after their Friday prayer in a nearby mosque. The house of the pastor was also burnt down.

10. “Gereja Pantekosta di Indonesia” Church or Pantecostal church in Indonesia in Sibuhun, Tapanuli Selatan, North Sumatera Province was burnt down by fanatic Muslims on the same day like the church of number 9.

11. “Gereja City Blessing” Church or City Blessing Church in Karawaci, Tangerang, Banten got a threat from a radical Muslim mob on January 10th, 2010.

12. “Gereja Kristen Sumatera Bagian Selatan” Church or South Sumatera Christian church in Lampung, South Sumatera was stoned by strangers on January 5th, 2010

13. “Gereja Bethel Indonesia” Church or Indonesian Bethel Church or Church of God in Indonesia “Kairos” in Duren Sawit, East Jakarta was attacked by a radical Muslim mob of 200 people on Sunday, February 14th, 2010.

14. “Gereja Protestan Indonesia Barat” Church or Western Indonesia Protestant Church with the name “Galilea” in Taman Galaxi, Bekasi, West Java Province was attacked by radical Muslim organizations on February 15th, 2010.The mob also closed down the church and put their flags on top of the structure of the church building. Now the building works of the church have been resumed and the Sunday service is held regularly again in the church.

15. “Kapela Katolik Stasi Capar” or Catholic chapel in Capar, Cirebon, West Java Province was threatened by a group of radical Muslim group called “Muslim Reform Movement” on February 18th, 2010

16. “Gereja Kristen Indonesia” Church or Indonesian Christian Church in Taman Yasmin, Bogor, West Java Province was attacked by radical Muslim organizations on March 18th, 2010. Later on the church was also closed down by the Lord Mayor of Bogor although the church has already got the building permit. Now the church has to celebrate the Sunday service on the street in front of its closed premise. The last Christmas celebration was attacked by radical mob but the police was also there to protect the church.

17. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Christian Protestant Church in Karawang, West Java Provice was closed down by the police on January 24th, 2010 due to protests by radical Muslim mob. But with the help of the local Lord Mayor the church could be reopened again on March 3rd, 2010.

18. “Gereja Katolik Stasi Santa Maria Immaculata” Church or Catholic Parish Church of Saint Mary Immaculate in Kali Deras, West Jakarta was in building process. The church has got already the building licence. But a radical Muslim cleric had closed the access road to the job site of the church on March 12th, 2010. The police did nothing against it. Until now the building activities have not been resumed yet.

19. “Wisma BPK Penabur” or the education center of the Christian Education Body “Penabur” or the “Seeders” in Cibeureum, Cisarua, Bogor, West Java Province was burnt down by radical Muslims on April 27th, 2010 at 19.00 h 2 cars and 7 houses for the workers were also burnt down.

20. “Sekolah Katolik Santo Bellarminus” Catholic School Saint Bellarminus at Jatibening, Bekasi, West Java Province was attacked by radical Muslim mob on Wednesday, May 7th, 2010. The windows of the school were broken down. The police had avoided another attack on Thursday, May 8th, 2010.

21. “Gereja Kristen Jawa” Church or Java Christian Church in Sukorejo, Kendal, Middle Java Province was put on fire at night before Easter, April 4th, 2010. But the pastor told me that the neighbours have helped to put down the fire and only the front part of his church was hit by the fire. On the following Sundays the pastor can use again his church for Sunday service as usual.

22. A place of Cahtolic pilgrimage to adore Holy Mary in Desa Jati Mulya, Rangkas Bitung, Lebak, Banten (West Java) was closed by local authorities because of protest by local Muslims. In April 2010 a team of the church met the local authorities to ask them to open again the place of the pilgrimage.

23. A Pantecostal church in Jalan Raya Naragong, Desa Limus Nunggal, Bogor, West Java Province was conpletely destroyed by the local authorities on Monday, July 19th, 2010.

24. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Protestant Church in Binanga, Sipirok, Desa Siboris, Kecamatan Barumun Tengah, Padang Lawas, North Sumatera Province was forced by local authorities to stop its activities on July 30th, 2010.

25. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Protestant Church in Desa Gajah Sakti, Kecamatan Bandar Pulau, Asahan, North Sumatera Province was attacked by radical Muslims on August 20th, 2010 in the evening.

26. The Catholic retreat center “Wisma Semadi Klender” in the Eastern District of the capital city of Jakarta got a special message from the local authorities in July 2010 that there should be no holy mass again on Sunday. The pastor of the center was also told that there were some radical Muslim organizations behind the protest.I have asked the help of the police and the problem was solved. The holy mass on Sunday can be held again as usual. The center was built by the Archdiocese of Jakarta in the late 1960-es and every Sunday there is a holy mass for the Catholics in the neighbourhood.

27. The Catholic parish church “Alleluya” in Tanah Grogot, Kabupaten Pasir, East Kalimantan province in the Archdiocese of Samarinda was attacked by unknown people on September 11th, 2010 in the evening. Some windows of the church were broken down. The police was running after the attackers.

28. The building of the house for the pastor of the Catholic parish Saint Mary the Immaculate Heart in Cicurug, Sukabumi, West Java province was protested by radical Muslims in the neighbourhood. After a meeting with local authorities and the local Ulama council the pastor had to sign a letter declaring that the house will be used only as a residential house for himself and not as a house of worship.The parish church itlself had been built in 1951 and was consecrated by the Papal Nuncio at that time.

29. The Catholic chapel of Saint Joseph in Pare at the parish of Delanggu in Middle Java province was put on fire on Tuesday, October 12th, 2010. The attackers had made their action in a hurry, that is why only the front and the back doors of the chapel were partly burnt. The church authority found in the chapel gasoline and used tired in burning condition left by the attackers. The chapel is located a little bit far from residential area.

30. “Gereja Kristen Jawa” or Java Christian Church in Gembyog in the village of Ngemplak, Kartasura, Sukoharjo near Solo in Middle Java province was attacked by 12 people riding on 6 motor cycles on Wednesday, October 13th, 2010 early in the morning. The attackers put the fire on the church in a hurry because there were many people of the neighbourhood were also there. It was only the windows of the church were burnt. The pastor of the church had made a report to the police.

31. “Huria Kristen Indonesia” Church or Christian Church of Indonesia in Lubuk Linggau, South Sumatera Province was closed down by local authorities on October 18th, 2010 according to an official report from the National Communion of Churches in Indonesia.

32. Pantecostal church “Gereja Kristen Muria Indonesia (GKMI) Karunia Bekasi” branch Cikarang of Rev. Pastor Titus Taya was threatened by radical Muslims on November 6th, 2010. I asked the protection from the police and the Sunday service of the church run smoothly.

33. During the Sunday service of Rehobot Berea Church “Glorious King” in Jalan Soekarno-Hatta, RW 06, Kelurahan Karasak, Kecamatan Astananyar, Kota Bandung, West Java Province a demonstration was staged by 50 radical Muslims from Communication Forum of Muslim Residents of Karasak, Muslim Congregation Front and Reformist Muslim Movement urging the closure of the church.It happened on Sunday, November 7th, 2010. But the police was on site to protect the congregation and the Sunday service was brought to the end peacefully.

34. Pantecostal church “Gereja Pantekosta di Indonesia Villa Mutiara Jaya” in Cibitung, Bekasi, West Java Province. At the time I was making my check in at the International Airport of Jakarta for the flight to New York on Sunday, November 28th, 2010 the pastor of the church, Rev. Donald Maringka informed me that his church would be attacked by radical Muslims on the next Sunday, December 5th, 2010 From Washington DC I asked the police on December 2nd to protect the church during their next Sunday service. After my arrival in Jakarta on December 13th the pastor told me that their Sunday service was savebecause of the protection from the police.On the New Year Day, January 1st, 2011 Rev. Maringka told me again that his church was threatened on the next Sunday morning service on January 2nd, 2011. I asked again the help of the police and the attack on the church was avoided. With 9 other religious leaders from Indonesia I traveled to New York City and Washington DC from November 28th till December 3rd, 2010. On my way back home I visited Germany and the Netherlands until December 12th, 2010.

35. “Huria Kristen Batak Protestan” Church or Batak Protestant Church “Betania” in Rancaekek, Bandung, West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010.

36. “Gereja Kemah Injili Indonesia Jemaat Filadelfia” Church or The Church of Evangelical Tent, the congregation of Philadelfia in Rancaekek, Bandung, West Java Provice was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010 like the church of number 35.

37. “Gereja Kristen Indonesia” Church or Indonesian Christian Church in Rancaekek, Bandung, West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010 like the church of number 35.

38. “Gereja Pantekosta Jemaat Immanuel” Church or Pantecostal Church of Immanuel congregation in Rancaekek, Bandung, West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010 like the church of number 35.

39. “Gereja Pantekosta Tabernakel Jemaat Maranatha” Church or Pantecostal Church Tebernacle of Maranatha congregation in Rancaekek, Bandung,West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010 like the church of number 35.

40. “Gereja Pantekosta di Indonesia” Church or Pantecostal Church in Indonesia in Rancaekek, Bandung, West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010.

41. “Gereja Katolik Stasi Rancaekek” or the Catholic chapel of Rancaekek of the Catholic parish of Saint Odilia in Cicadas, Bandung, West Java Province was closed down by local authorities on Sunday, December 12th, 2010 like the church of number 35.

42. “Gereja Kristen Muria Indonesia (GMKI)” Church or Muria Christian Church of Indonesia in Serengan, Solo, Middle Java Province was shot with a gun by unknown people on Saturday, December 4th, 2010 in the evening. There was no casuality. The church is already 25 year old and is located at Jalan Kedempel 14, Dawung Wetan, Serengan, Solo.

43. The Catholic chapel of Christ The King in Desa Blimbing, Gatak, Sukoharjo, Solo, Middle Java Province was hit by a homemade bomb on Tuesday, December 7th, 2010 early in the morning at 5.45 am. The bomb exploded but there was no casuality reported.

44. The Catholic hospital “Brayat Minula” in Banjarsari, Surakata, Solo, Middle Java province was stoned by an unidentified person on December 8th, 2010 at 8 h am. The window of the hospital on the second floor was broken. It was scheduled that on the same day at 10 h am H.E. Cardinal Darmoatmojo and the Lord Mayor of Solo would inaugurate a new building of the hospital. For that purpose the police had checked the security of the hosptal at 7 h am The hospital itself is already 25 year old.

45. There was a homemade bomb found at the pilgrimage place to honor the Holy Mary in Prambanan, Klaten, Middle Java Province at the end of November 2010. During the weeks before Christmas there were some terror actions in the area of Solo in the province of Middle Java. A homemade bomb was also found near the police station at Pasar Kliwon district near to the North side of the Surakarta royal palace on December 7th, 2010.

46. “Gereja Kristen Setia Indonesia (GKSI)” Church or Setia Christian Church of Indonesia in the village of Bonepute, Kecamatan Larompong, Kabupaten Luwu, South Sulawesi Province was closed dowen by local authorities at the end of December 2010. The pastor of the church is Rev. Narsing These are the churches noted by us in the Jakarta Christian Communication Forum. There must be more churches attacked last year in our country. But due to lack of data we cannot put them on our list too.There were reports about more churches attacked in Middle Java and we got also reports about churches attacked in Papua, in East Java and in Tembilahan, Riau province.

We hope in our next report we will give you more informations about it. I mentioned above about our visit to USA. From November 29th till December 3rd I joined a delegation of Indonesian religious leaders to the US-Indonesia Interreligious Cooperation Forum in New York City and Washington DC. We met US religious leaders from different faiths and also government officials in White House, National Security Council, State Department and the UN. Our meetings were very fruitful. I took the opportunity to discuss with my American friends about the situation of Christians in Indonesia.

About the attacks on religious communities I just read an article in our English newspaper The Jakarta Globe titled “UN Condemns Religious Attacks, Including in Indonesia”. Attacks on religious minorities in places like Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan and Indonesia should serve as a wake-up call to authorities everywhere to combat rising fanaticism, the top UN human rights official said on Friday, January 7th, 2011.All countries have a moral and legal duty to protect the freedom of religion by quashing sectarian violence and rooting out discriminatory laws that can lead to flull-fledged conflict, said Navy Pillay, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights….. For further details please open the website www.thejakartaglobe.com

As I have informed you ealier that if you want to update yourselves on the situation of the Christians in Indonesia please open the website of our two English newspapers. One I have mentioned above and the other is The Jakarta Post www.thejakartapost.com.

Thank you very much for your kind attention and may I wish you and your beloved ones a new year 2011 with full of happiness.

Warmest greetings from Indonesia.

Theophilus Bela
Secretary General of Indonesian Committee on Religion and Peace

Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 110, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
Yes Indonesia loves Christians....


Muslim attacks on Indonesian Christian Churches in 2010
Herewith is the list of attacks on Christian Churches in Indonesia of last year :

I was mainly thinking about Hindu minority in places like Bali, but yeah seems like Christians aren't treated too well there either.

I wonder how much better place world would be if all Muslims/Jewish/Christians would abandon their violent religions and become Buddhists. That's the true religion or philosophy of peace.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1257 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2439 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 69):
If that means ending all foreign aid, fine with me. If that means America takes a tenth of its Iraq/Afghanistan war costs and instead spends money helping Egypt, Libya and eventually Syria recover from revolution (+decades of repression) by maybe building schools or providing a free internet service, that might go a long way towards calming anti-US feeling.

How about the U.S simply withdrawing aid to the region period and using that money to help our own here at home? Perhaps Finland and Sweden can step in with their long histories of helping the "oppressed" and fix all of these issues. The fact is that the Middle East has never been peaceful. It has been in constant turmoil and war for thousands of years and likely will for thousands more. The problems in the Middle East are and have been created by the cultural, religious and economic conflicts of the Middle Eastern peoples themselves. Proxies (Europeans, Asians, North Americans, etc.) have come and gone throughout recorded history yet the basic issues remain the same.

This isn't an American created problem and it shouldn't require an American created solution. In my opinion let all the bastards slug it out to the death and the survivors can then pick up the pieces themselves. Natural selection if you will. For what its worth I don't support the Palestinians or the Israelis. I support my own people and personally feel that our vast wealth would be much better spent here at home.

Greed, abuse of power and corruption are human failings that transcend race, gender, religious and national boundaries. Until all of humanity can look inward, accept that reality and take personal responsibility, conflicts such as these will always exist. Permanent change only comes from within and cannot be imposed. Externally imposed solutions even if they last 70+ years will never become permanent (Yugoslavia anyone?).

I'm getting off of my soapbox now. I'm not sure if we agree or disagree but it certainly has been entertaining and enjoyable reading this thread.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 112, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 111):
Perhaps Finland and Sweden can step in with their long histories of helping the "oppressed" and fix all of these issues.

Finland and Sweden like most European countries have offered development aid all around the world just like US has done, the difference is just that we haven't really used military power in these areas (other than peacekeeping), and maybe that's why we are not hated in certain areas like US is.

Also yes I too think it would be better for US and really most countries just to leave and let these places handle their own business. The ultimate truth is that development aid, western funded education and encouraging governments to democracy are never going to fix anything in these certain places, it's the very culture and history of these places that makes it impossible.

That's why US and other western countries should stop aiding and trying to apply western values to these certain countries. Just leave them and their culture alone and things will keep going just naturally.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 113, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 106):
Well, it seems throughout this thread that YOU have special access to the thoughts and feelings of the ENTIRE WORLD:

Ok, your point is well taken, it is pompous to speak for the whole world.
.
However, I don't post much here that is my opinion unless I identify it as such (by saying IMO or "I think"). When I say the whole world thinks this or the Islamic world thinks that, its because of poll data, election results and other manifestations of popular opinion. But, perhaps I could phrase it better.
.
Benghazi and the other hot spots are no farther from some major cities in Europe than Chicago is from Boston. There are Muslim-majority nations in Europe and a large Muslim presence on the continent generally. So I invite you to consider if maybe a European perspective on the Muslim world is at least as accurate as an American's perception on, for example, the hispanic world (hispanics being a little exotic and unkown to Europeans generally).

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 106):
Unfortunately, the way you choose to present it is such a turn-off that I think its doomed to failure.

Your friends in Europe have a shared heritage with most every American and those of us (most of us) who believe in America wouldn't even bother trying to talk to you about things like this if there wasn't a feeling that you are our friends and worth engaging. I think most of us feel you are operating without all the necessary information and are making judgments about Muslims based on the few hundred that are violent that make the news. I will try to present this point of view in a way that is less irksome.

Pu


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 114, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

And with that, Pu, I see little point in continuing the conversation.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
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