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Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5428 times:

Assange has now spent 100 days in Ecuador's London Embassy. He's worse off even than someone in prison, really - not only is his 'cell' smaller, with the British police guarding both the front and back entrances of the embassy, he doesn't even get any 'exercise time' in the open air.....

It now looks as if either Assange or the Ecuadorians (or both) are 'cracking':-

"ECUADOR has asked Britain whether Julian Assange could be permitted to leave his London hideout for medical treatment.

"The query comes as the two countries met to seek to end a deadlock over the activist's fate.

"Assange has sheltered inside Ecuador's embassy in London, beyond the reach of British police, since June 19 - a total of 100 days.

"He is seeking to avoid extradition to Sweden for questioning over sex crimes allegations.

"Though Ecuador has granted Assange asylum, if he steps outside the building he will be arrested to be flown to Sweden."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ecu...eting/story-fnbzs1v0-1226483303150

Quite obvious what the British should (and almost certainly will) say (and, if necessary, do). Just repeat that, the moment Assange leaves the embassy, he will be arrested. But add that he will then be afforded any medical care that he needs; though guarded by policemen while he receives it. And that, provided he is fit enough, he will then be extradited to Sweden forthwith........

I don't personally have any time for Assange. Anyone who is accused of a crime should face up to things and submit to legal proceedings, while energetically defending themselves. The last thing they should do, in my opinion, is what Assange has done; just 'lie low' and severely inconvenience other people (not least the well-meaning Ecuadorians).

So I think this business has gone on long enough, and hope very much that Assange will indeed leave the embassy (effectively, 'give himself up') and submit to the required questioning in Sweden. But I'm sure that not everyone will agree with me. What does everyone else think?


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
109 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Ecuador have committed themselves to protecting Assange, so they should provide medical care themselves, within the embassy.

This isn't a "crossed fingers" situation - if he leaves the embassy, he should be arrested.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Ecuador have committed themselves to protecting Assange, so they should provide medical care themselves

See what you mean, moo. But I suspect that, after 100 days spent entirely indoors, Assange is suffering from something that can't be treated just by a GP visiting and dishing out some pills.........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5383 times:

Diddums.

His confinement is voluntary, not imposed.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5373 times:

I also hear that Sweden has an excellent healthcare system...

User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5365 times:

Perhaps he wants to attach a pair of testicles to gain the courage he needs to face his accusers.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

This whole spectacle has done only one thing in my eyes -- prove that Assange is guilty of whatever it is Swedish Police want to talk to him about...

He can't stay in that embassy forever, and neither the British nor the Swedish are going to back down. One way or another, he's got to face the music eventually.

That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
he doesn't even get any 'exercise time' in the open air.....

Perhaps he should have chosen an embassy with nice big grounds, like say the US Embassy, for example?  


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5247 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

If I got the information right from a previous thread, it has something to do with Sweden actually needing Assange (the suspect) physically in Sweden before he can be questioned/charged/accused (not sure which.) But yes, it seems a little fishy since Swedish prisons don't sound that bad, they don't extradite people when they can face the death penalty (so not gonna be killed by the US) and just the US's legal grounds for prosecuting him are very shaky at best.

Plus, I think if the US assassinated him or something that would do a lot more damage than just leaving him be. Wikileaks did its damage but no one really talks about it too much, it's old news. Killing Assange would just bring more attention and bad press to America. That's assuming this administration would even sign off on shady assassinations...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5237 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):
Perhaps he wants to attach a pair of testicles

Actually I think it was the ones he as that got him into trouble in the first place.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
He can't stay in that embassy forever

Why not? 10 to 20 years could replace the jail time he'd probably get in Sweden.

I do look to Ecuador's decision being reviewed at the highest levels. Maybe if they just start lowering the quality of the food he gets, sending him a bill for the room & board, etc.

Of course, as soon as he has a real medical emergency the Brits will have him tagged at the hospital.  


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5235 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London

It would be pointless, I guess. They already have evidence from the two girls. Assange, when and if he's ever 'questioned,' will deny it, of course, but that's a matter of 'Well, he would, wouldn't he?' No use questioning him in a place where they have no powers of arrest.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
If I got the information right from a previous thread, it has something to do with Sweden actually needing Assange (the suspect) physically in Sweden before he can be questioned/charged/accused (not sure which.)

Quite so; but my guess is that the operative word is 'charged.'   As it should be, IMO........

A few more 'straws in the wind' in this press story:-

"As the WikiLeaks founder spent his 100th day in the Ecuadorean embassy, where he has sought refuge from extradition to Sweden to face allegations of sexual crimes, the country's foreign minister met his British counterpart, William Hague, to ask about contingency plans should Assange fall ill.

"Hague told Ricardo Patino that he would consult officials and lawyers and respond within a few days, but a British official commented: "Maybe the Ecuadoreans should have thought of that before they granted him asylum." The official added that British police were under obligation to arrest Assange as soon as he stepped out of the embassy.

"One thing we have proposed is to have an ambulance parked outside," Patino told the Guardian in an interview in New York. "What we have said, if such a case should happen, we should be ready to install an operating theatre inside the premises, unless Mr Hague responds, as he promised in the next few days, that he [Assange] would be able to go to a hospital."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012...ge-embassy-wikileaks?newsfeed=true

Ambulances? An operating theatre? Strongly suggests that 'something's up,' Assange is ill........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6374 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

Any trial in Sweden is almost sure to involve some DNA tests.

That said, the Swedes are more than happy with the present situation. For several reasons:

1. As long as he is fed at the Ecuador Embassy in London the Swedes won't have to feed him.
2. Any trial in Stockholm could easily become a magnet to rioters from all over the world.
3. As long as he is not in Sweden, the Swedes won't need to deal with any request from the USA.

How will it end? Well, if he doesn't choose to go to Sweden, then there are two possibilities.

1. He stays in the Ecuador Embassy forever.
2. The London police at some time relaxes a little, and he is sneaked by night to Ecuador (which I expect is very likely).

And whatever happens, he will be a lifetime "prisoner" within the borders of Ecuador plus other countries which hate Sweden and the USA. And so what? The main message has been delivered long time ago: Whoever wants to succeed Assange, stay within the laws of the countries you deal with, or expect to live a lifestyle which is vastly inferior to what other people are used to.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5138 times:

Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized
I mean really this man put on the spotlight some huge war crimes and injustices going on in the world

As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):

I'm too buzzed to really understand the sarcasm but I must admit, he is really playing the whole "the US is going to execute me" card way too much. The crimes he has to answer for have nothing to do with Wikileaks. Methinks there might be something more going on...

Off topic, but to our fellow Swedes, what kind of punishment (if guilty) is he looking at?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):
Any trial in Sweden is almost sure to involve some DNA tests.

I don't see why, he freely admits to having sex with the women.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
The crimes he has to answer for have nothing to do with Wikileaks.

Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else. Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5108 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else. Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.

Well that assumes that Sweden, as a sovereign nation, made that decision. I doubt that Sweden would bend to political will just because this guy offended the US. In fact, I believe that making a big deal out of Assange (at this point) would only bring more attention to him (IMO.)

I say let Sweden deal with him. I feel that they are honorable enough to make a decision that is free of bias from the US  Smile

[Edited 2012-09-29 21:49:58]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24959 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5087 times:
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Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):

Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized

If you think the releases are heroic, then surely the hero would be Bradley Manning. Assange was just the (attention-seeking) publisher.

And from my point of view, he is a remarkably naive man. He published state secrets. He may have put lives at risk.

What did he think was going to happen?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5083 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else.

Aesma, I doubt that you've ever been to Sweden? Because, if you had, you'd know that they are almost 'aggressively' independent, they invariably go their own way; and they have a long and proud tradition of neutrality......... There is no possibility whatever that they are conspiring in some way with the United States.

Come to that, the USA and Britain still have a thing called the 'special relationship' - born in the days when they worked together to save Europe from the German Nazis, and much of the rest of the world from the 'Empire of Japan.' If the USA had ever wanted to lay their hands on Assange, they could have sought his extradition from the UK at any time, on grounds of espionage; with the virtual certainty of success. I agree with you that they might not be able to make such charges stick - but there's no reasonable doubt that they could have got their hands on him, and put him on trial, any time they liked, years ago.

As things are - because neither he nor the Ecuadorians thought through the limitations of 'asylum' - he's 'going nowhere.' Had they realised those limitations, smuggled him out of Britain, and quietly got him on a aeroplane to Ecuador, things would be different. But as things are, he's facing 'life imprisonment' in the embassy.

Except that I suspect that, first of all, he's not at all well; and, secondly, that the Ecuadorians are getting more and more fed up with his presence disrupting the smooth functioning of their embassy.

Case of 'watch this space,' I reckon......... looks as if 'something will happen' quite soon.

[Edited 2012-09-29 23:57:20]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

And so saying, here's the next 'development':-

"I miss many things: going to the shops or out to eat with friends. I miss an open horizon, putting my toes in the sea, going fishing, climbing a mountain," Mr Assange told the newspaper.

While he tries to maintain a healthy diet and exercises daily under the direction of a personal trainer, Mr Assange admits his detention is taking a toll.

"My health is slowly deteriorating," he said.

"I hope it's just physical. I am taking steps to try to stop it, but I have a problem with a lung which is causing a racking cough."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bre...afety/story-e6frf7k6-1226484932971

No doctor nowadays is going even to try to treat those symptoms without a full checkup, including X-rays, blood tests, heart tests etc. And he may already have been told that he very probably needs an operation.

What a self-centred bugger he is. Whose fault is it that he can't see his kids, go to the beach, climb mountains etc.?

Anyway - now that he's worried about his own precious skin, I reckon he'll give himself up within a week or so.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:39:58]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5005 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
What a self-centred bugger he is. Whose fault is it that he can't see his kids, go to the beach, climb mountains etc.?

Does he have kids? He sure is self centered - he has brought all this upon himself. As has been said before, he's gonna have to face extradition at some point, all he's doing now is prolonging it. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Man up Assange, get deported then you'll free up our newspapers for something important to write about.



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5669 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4990 times:
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Get over it Julian,

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

The USA can't try you as a traitor, the rabidly independant Swedes are unlikely to extradite you to a 3rd party( if the Brits with the above mentioned special relationship with the US haven't then the Swedes are hardly likely too!)

You have chosen to take asylum with that paragon of freedom and free speech, Ecuador, How funny is that?

Imagine your self as an Ecuadorian journalist that discovered something questionable about government, human rights or corruption in your country and see how well the "freedoms" you espouse and expect as a "right" are respected in your "adopted" haven!

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge opportunity for our governments(all of them) to be more transparent in many of their(our) foreign policy engagements. I am just not convinced that Messers Assange and Manning are best positioned(or qualified) to make that call.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4972 times:
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He made his bed, he can damn well lie in it.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4962 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized.

 

Then again, some people believe Hitler was a hero too.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.

It's amazing that US intelligence was able to sway not one, but 2! Assange groupies to publicly come forward with these fake allegations. They must have incredible powers.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
It's amazing that US intelligence was able to sway not one, but 2! Assange groupies to publicly come forward with these fake allegations. They must have incredible powers.

And really, what would be the point of the US doing this? The damage has been done, Assange is not a threat, putting him on trial or killing him would just make us look bad and bring even more attention to Wikileaks.

Measures have been put into place to ensure this won't happen again. The military hates flash drives now... on our base if you even plug your iPhone into a computer to charge it some system very far away will read it as an unauthorized device and suspend your account. Notice that having Assange dead, alive, or in custody doesn't affect this process at all.

Assange just needs to man up and face the charges



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4900 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Assange is ill........

Probably more mentally than anything.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them

Why? They are following their legal protocols. What people tend to forget is that Assange really isn't anyone special in his legal circumstances. There is absolutely no need for special treatment.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
I don't see why, he freely admits to having sex with the women.

As I understand it, the only consensual sex he had was based on his using a condom. When he reportedly had sex and didn't use a condom that, under local laws, was rape - the woman did not consent to that form of sex.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
exercises daily under the direction of a personal trainer,

He has a personal trainer who works with him on a daily basis? WTF! Nice that he has the money for that and appears to me that he cannot be that sick if he is working with a PT on a daily basis.

Maybe all this talk about some mythical illness is simply an effort for sympathy and a way for him to leave.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
No doctor nowadays is going even to try to treat those symptoms without a full checkup, including X-rays, blood tests, heart tests etc. And he may already have been told that he very probably needs an operation.

A doctor can generally determine if antibiotics are needed for a chest infection. A portable x-ray can be taken if desired and the guy can spit in a cup for lab work No special needs at all.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army. World needs more people like him and Manning.

And yeah yeah he may have put some lives in risk, but after all military people in those operations are always risking their life so who cares?

Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.



[Edited 2012-09-30 12:25:34]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army

...who has unprotected sex with women against their will.

Should we just ignore that just because he exposed some secrets? Doing something 'good' does not give him a free pass for misbehavior



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
...who has unprotected sex with women against their will.

Should we just ignore that just because he exposed some secrets? Doing something 'good' does not give him a free pass for misbehavior

This whole rape story probably is total rubbish and pathetic try to make Assange look bad. I wonder how much those women got paid by US government / some organization under it.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.

I'm at the point where I doubt if the US really wants to give him the publicity of a trial.

Simply keep him in some embassy room for a few years then send him to Sweden. A few years in prison there and the guy ends up a nobody - the worst punish a guy like that can get.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):

Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army. World needs more people like him and Manning.

And yeah yeah he may have put some lives in risk, but after all military people in those operations are always risking their life so who cares?

Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.

Assange is a great man? Did he have a whistleblower agenda for WikiLeaks, or was its agenda to "give people around the world an unprecedented insight into US Government foreign activities" as described? If a disgruntled Airbus employee were to publish proprietary documents detailing every facet of the company's dealings, would you consider that person a hero? Or would think that his actions could have compromised Airbus's competitive position?

Except in this case, Assange knowingly attempted to compromise the USA's national security and recklessly endangered lives. He's not a great man. He's a criminal.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 29):

US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with US national security, both of those wars were mainly because of political and economical reasons.

As long as US "national security" involves operations that do not comply with international laws exposing them is right thing to do. Real danger to your national security lies in your imperialistic foreign policy, not in people who expose the truth. Through the history so many lives would have been saved if there had been people like Assannge exposing all the dark secrets committed by United States.

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:37:57]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
This whole rape story probably is total rubbish and pathetic try to make Assange look bad.

And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
I wonder how much those women got paid by US government / some organization under it.

Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 28):
I'm at the point where I doubt if the US really wants to give him the publicity of a trial.

   What's there to gain?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4946 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with US national security, both of those wars were mainly because of political and economical reasons.

As long as US "national security" involves operations that do not comply with international laws exposing them is right thing to do. Real danger to your national security lies in your imperialistic foreign policy, not in people who expose the truth.

Afghanistan... seriously? I guess you think 9/11 was a conspiracy created by the USA government - fabricated like the Holocaust.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 32):
Afghanistan... seriously? I guess you think 9/11 was a conspiracy created by the USA government - fabricated like the Holocaust.

Nope, 9/11 was result from centuries of aggressive and ignorant foreign policy committed by US government. It's not like those terrorist attacked US because of religion or because they hated lifestyle in US. No, they attacked because of political reasons, mainly Us messing around in Middle East and supporting Israel.

Also really the war in Afghanistan has done nothing good there, when US forces finally leave I bet it won't take long before Taliban will be in power again. You can't cure violence with more violence.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Hard to say, even the best judicial systems do have corruption.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Maybe US government wanted to make Assange look like a bad guy and turn sympathies against him which could have made some more potential sources of information abandon him.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
Nope, 9/11 was result from centuries of aggressive and ignorant foreign policy committed by US government. It's not like those terrorist attacked US because of religion or because they hated lifestyle in US. No, they attacked because of political reasons, mainly Us messing around in Middle East and supporting Israel.

Also really the war in Afghanistan has done nothing good there, when US forces finally leave I bet it won't take long before Taliban will be in power again. You can't cure violence with more violence.

Centuries? The USA is only 236-years-old, and wasn't involved much in global foreign policy until circa WWI.

Attacking Afghanistan no doubt weakened the Taliban and disrupted additional attacks on the USA. And yes, there's many religious fanatics who wish to push their ways onto society. We even have them in the USA, but at least they're not killing people. Unless you're an abortion doctor, at least.

Regardless, Assange's intentions weren't that of a whistle-blower; he was merely somebody seeking to stir the pot.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Centuries? The USA is only 236-years-old, and wasn't involved much in global foreign policy until circa WWI.


Oh my English failed again, I meant decade... For some reason I always mix century and decade...



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 696 posts, RR: 13
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized
I mean really this man put on the spotlight some huge war crimes and injustices going on in the world

As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them

Sweden regrets your disappointment, or I do anyway.

Aren't his accomplishments blown out of proprtion? Mainly by Assange himself?
...a lot of it was just embarrassing gossip sent back to Washington by ambassadors.
...as for the stuff about the conduct of the military in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't think it really matters or changes anything.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):

There is no possibility whatever that they are conspiring in some way with the United States.

To be fair, a public or secret backchannel deal is possible after he is on Swedish soil, but almost certainly is not being pre-meditated at this time by the USA or Sweden.

If his accusers are 100% truthful and able to prove it, my best guess is that Assange would get (at worse) a very short term of confinement (weeks) and afterwards some community supervision. More probably, given the difficulties of proof and the apparent backstory of the accusers, he would get off scot free OR be sentenced to face no confinement & get a few months of supervision with electronic monitoring (but no jail.)

Swedish jail = comparable to an Accor hotel (Motel 6 / Formule 1) with free meals, internet, healthcare and job training.

Pu


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Hard to say, even the best judicial systems do have corruption.

Well what do the Swedes have to gain from all this?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Maybe US government wanted to make Assange look like a bad guy and turn sympathies against him which could have made some more potential sources of information abandon him.

That doesn't make any sense. Plus why Assange some magic man? These "sources" could easily go to someone else that owns a website.

He released the information. We can give him a mansion... nothing changes. We can ignore him... nothing changes. We can torture him for 20 years... nothing changes. Assange is worthless to the US



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
A doctor can generally determine if antibiotics are needed for a chest infection. A portable x-ray can be taken if desired and the guy can spit in a cup for lab work No special needs at all.

Fair enough, Ken777, I admit that I'm only piecing together and interpreting a few 'key words' culled from the various news reports. You could well be right and I'm over-stating things; but that Ecuadorian official, in particular (see Post 9 above), certainly used words that strongly suggest that, far from preparing for some sort of possible health problem that might arise in the distant future, the Ecuadorians are 'on notice' that there IS a problem which could require immediate hospitalisation. Why else would he talk about 'an ambulance parked outside'? And also an operating theatre unless Assange is 'able to go to a hospital?'

"One thing we have proposed is to have an ambulance parked outside," Patino told the Guardian in an interview in New York. "What we have said, if such a case should happen, we should be ready to install an operating theatre inside the premises, unless Mr Hague responds, as he promised in the next few days, that he [Assange] would be able to go to a hospital."

That's why I used the phrase 'Movement at the Station' in the heading - it comes in the first line of a marvellous poem called 'The Man from Snowy River,' written by a guy named Banjo Patterson, and conveys very well the feeling of incomplete information being 'passed around,' interpreted, and gradually added to. I should perhaps mention that 'station' in this context is Australian for 'ranch':-

"There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around
That the colt from old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses -- he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray."


http://www.mountainman.com.au/mansnowy.html

[Edited 2012-09-30 20:05:29]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4849 times:

I agree Bradley Manning is a hero too

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
And from my point of view, he is a remarkably naive man. He published state secrets. He may have put lives at risk.

What did he think was going to happen?
Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower. Is that really how you feel stealthz?

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21):
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized.
Then again, some people believe Hitler was a hero too.

Get out of here with that..what are you trying to insinuate?

Quoting pu (Reply 37):

Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?

simply because democracy and the division of powers works in Sweden. The judiciary system makes a decision on that, based on the laws, not the government.

OTH, Sweden did not extradite generations of draft dodgers, why should they extradite an Australian national to the US?



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6095 posts, RR: 31
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4815 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I do not know of any ethical surgeon that will concede to operate in a "surgical theatre" prepared inside a building that is just an office. The only times things like these are done are during war campaigns near the actual war fronts or during natural catastrophes. This is just press sensationalism or leaks from either side (I don´t know which) to see how the other reacts. Game Theory at its best.

I don´t see any illness, aside from appendicitis or something like that, that would require emergency transport to a hospital on a man Assange´s age.

How bad can it be to be locked inside a building? I don´t buy it´s that bad, if the alternative is prison. He has restaurant food, a Personal Trainer, at least one exercise machine we know of, access to TV, (Sky, Cable?) the internet and I´m sure his supporters are quietly donating money so he can live in relative comfort. Friends even visit him often.

He can´t go outside? Well, too bad. I´m sure he can get by through acquiring (from Sweden, ironically) one of those "sun lamps". You know, the ones popular in the Nordic regions that people get to pass the Winter without getting seasonal depression and offing themselves in one of their wonderful summer cottages up in the woods.

What´s the point of going outside in London from September to May, anyway? Weatherwise it´s just as depressing as staying indoors.

I assume he can also get magic pills, in case he gets deprressed. Those SRIs that do wonders these days. Surely the government of Ecuador can get its hands on a prescription for those and for benzos too, in case he feels anxious?

Occupational therapy is great too. Ecuador ought to put him to work. During normal office hours he can serve coffee, mop the floors, clean the bathrroms, sweep, keep the kitchen spotless, manage the copy machine etc. When there´s a will there´s a way.

And if you think the above was a satire, reflect on the following: People have been known to live in embassies for years (ask any Mexican embassador in Latin America during the 70s), way back when there was no Sky, Cable TV, Internet, Sun lamps, SRIs, Benzos, friends (cause they were dead) or other such niceties that have appeared in the last 3 decades, and survived pretty well. They made themselves useful, hated to be considered a burden and were generally people who made their best of their circumstances.

The only question I have is, what will happen when (and if) there is a change of government in Ecuador?

That´s when he´ll really need those SRI´s and Benzos.

[Edited 2012-10-01 00:15:08]


MGGS
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

The alternative is not prison, house arrest at worst, usually pre-trial persons are not in prison unless they are dangerous. Until he is convicted he can have restaurant food and everything, only his movements are limited. I doubt that he will be convicted to serve time in Sweden. He rather will be extradited to a country his choice, best for him would be Australia.

But that then would be worse for him because nobody would give him any attention any longer.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4782 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
The judiciary system makes a decision on that, based on the laws, not the government.

Not completely true. Under Swedish law the Supreme Court may rule on whether there is an obstacle to extradition and it may make a decision that allows the Government to grant an extradition request. The law uses the word "may", not "shall". This can not be applied in reverse, so if the Court were to rule that extradition is not permitted the government would be unable to go ahead. The Court can not oblige the government to proceed but it can bar it from so doing. If the Court approves, the final decision is with the Government.

This from the advice of the Dept of Foreign Affairs in Canberra to Stockholm and Washington stations:
"The Swedish Government could deny an extradition or temporary surrender that the Supreme Court had approved, but if the Supreme Court denied an extradition or temporary surrender application, then the matter ended there." (FOI request, 4.5MB, see page 26 of 157 - emphasis added)

[Edited 2012-10-01 02:13:16]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4756 times:

I think what I said was, that the Swedish Government cannot rule the xtradition (to thew USA=) agaoinst bthe Swedish supreme court

the question was:

Quoting P]Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?[/quote]


and my asnwer was


[quote=PanHAM
(Reply 41):
simply because democracy and the division of powers works in Sweden.

and the country in question possibly demanding an extradition was and still is the USA.

I am almost certain that no Swedish government and certainly not the Swedish high court would allow the xtradition to the USA and even if, only under the condition that any punishment shall not be higher than that he would receive in Sweden.

However, in case Assange lands in Sweden , from the UK, and his trial there is completed, i dount that Sweden would grant asylum, Assange would be free to leave to a country his choice.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5669 posts, RR: 45
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4695 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower. Is that really how you feel stealthz?

In a word ..Yes

This is also how I feel..

Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):
Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge opportunity for our governments(all of them) to be more transparent in many of their(our) foreign policy engagements. I am just not convinced that Messers Assange and Manning are best positioned(or qualified) to make that call.

One of the conditions of his asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy, a condition imposed by the Govt of Equador and outlined in the press conf by the Foreign Minister when announcing the granting of asylum,

Quote:
"We placed the same type of conditions that are the norm in international relations, such as him [Mr Assange] not making political statements that could affect our relations with friendly countries."

Seems on September 26 Mr Assange from his spider hole in London via video link did just that in his address to the UN(why did they even open the forum to him?)
The fact that Ecuador did not throw him out on the street means one of two things, they were lying through their teeth in August or they don't consider the USA a freindly country.

I am of the opinion that the attention seeking Assange was becoming concerned that the firestorm of attention that surronded the information provided by Manning was on the wane and his profile was declining. It seems to me that if this Swedish assault issue and the ensuing extradition fracas had not happened he would have found some other way to stay in the limelight.

And again for thegreatRDU, I think JA is an attention seeking ego maniac who's main talent is as a mediocre low level hacker,



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4646 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 39):
You could well be right and I'm over-stating things;

I personally believe that his protectors are over-tating rings. Probably looking for a way to get rid of him.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
I agree Bradley Manning is a hero too

I sure don't.

Maning raised his hand and took the oath and that sort of changes things. Anyone who served can remember that things changed. I sure can.

Basically I consider him a rather stupid guy who was easily talked into breaking the law. In his situation the law he lives under is the UCMJ, but I doubt that Assange gives a dump about that.

Manning should, and probably will, have some prison time, be kicked out of the military on a Dishonorable and will not be ably to receive GI Bill benefits, or vA care. For the rest of his life. That is what Assange did to him.

My hope, therefore, is that Assange gets as many years as Manning.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
I do not know of any ethical surgeon that will concede to operate in a "surgical theatre" prepared inside a building that is just an office. The only times things like these are done are during war campaigns near the actual war fronts or during natural catastrophes.

Agree completely, AR385. I'm no 'medical man,' but my father was. Any medico who sanctioned major abdominal surgery in less than 100% sterile conditions, except in conditions of the gravest emergency, would (rightly) have the whole medical book thrown at him.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
He can´t go outside? Well, too bad. I´m sure he can get by through acquiring (from Sweden, ironically) one of those "sun lamps". You know, the ones popular in the Nordic regions that people get to pass the Winter without getting seasonal depression and offing themselves in one of their wonderful summer cottages up in the woods.

"Dunno' about that, chum.   My 'feeling' - no more than that - is that Assange is basically pretty 'unstable' in mental terms. So that the best option of the various intelligence services (I used to be a member of one of those myself, but only with the rank of 'acting lance-corporal'  ) appears to me to be to 'bide their time.'

Assange can't win this argument. The only question is, at which point of the controversy does he lose? And - harking back to my (totally-inefficient)( service in NATO in the late 1950s - 'Who wins, us (NATO), or the Russians'?

That's probably a pretty old-fashioned viewpoint. But I probably spent more than my fair share of time freezing half to death in FOWs (Forward Observation Posts) opposing the Russians. Enduring rock-bottom 'morale,' like my British and US colleagues.

Most people nowadays tend to think that all that 'Cold War' stuff was just a 'mistake' - I would 'submit' that that is 'less than accurate.' And I'm sure that ('mentally-challenged') idiots like Assange reckon that the notion never had any validity.

Just in my opinion - the Russian threat to Europe in the 1950s/60s was very real. I'm no sort of 'hero' - I could probably qualify as one of the 10% least efficient soldiers NATO ever had - but the fact remains that, way back then, the only people stopping the Russians from taking over Europe were the US and British armies.

[Edited 2012-10-01 10:13:41]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower.

No he isn't, and no he didn't - what warcrimes and grave injustices did he expose?

He released tens of thousands of documents en mass without a thought to the content of those documents - he didn't vet them, or allow them to be vetted, prior to disclosure so he had no idea what was in them at all. He was grandstanding, nothing more.

In his haste to get his name in the news, he didn't care what he released, so long as he released a lot of it - the manner in which he released the documents could have put real people in serious danger, and indeed has caused a huge amount of international issues since his haphazard mishandling of the documents.

He isn't a whistleblower, he's a media attention whore who saw his chance.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?

Why should they?

Right now, I don't particularly care about the Swedish accusations, or the chance that he could be extradited to the US - what I do care about is that he has committed real, undeniable crimes on English soil, and in the process insulted the British justice system. I personally hope he serves time in the UK for evading his bail conditions, and his bail fronters lose their £240,000.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 49):
No he isn't, and no he didn't - what warcrimes and grave injustices did he expose?

Whole Afghan war and US foreign policy is full of injustice.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 50):

And Assanges actions have brought that to the fore ... how, exactly? People have had issues with the various wars and US policies well before WikiLeaks existed.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4596 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 49):
No he isn't, and no he didn't - what warcrimes and grave injustices did he expose?

Ever heard of Wikileaks?   
US attack helicopters gunning down innocent women and children covering it up and reporting it as a strike on "insurgents", Afghan war diaries, friendly fire incidents cover ups, have you seen the toxic dumps in Cote D'ivoire?!! Literally toxic sludge that has deformed thousands of people and their offspring...I could go on and on....you can't be serious

Quoting moo (Reply 49):
the manner in which he released the documents could have put real people in serious danger, and indeed has caused a huge amount of international issues since his haphazard mishandling of the documents.

Is that all you guys got "he could have put real people in serious danger!" read out loud what you are typing to yourself
  
seriously is that all you have??

It goes all the way back to the who will watch the watchers concept, I see Assange as a mechanism of keeping them honest



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4593 times:

It's all I need - his actions and methods show no responsibility at all, so at best he's no better than the people you seem to think he is implicit in exposing.

And yet, nothing he splurged out into the world has really come as anything new with regard to actions etc on behalf of the US, despite your assertions to the opposite - nothing on extraordinary renditions, nothing on extra legal assassinations or executions etc etc. Just a lot of small fry things which you generally expect from even a mildly corrupt beurocracy engaged in wars, nothing systemic, nothing wide ranging, nothing which fundamentally damns a government.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 52):

I can really see where you're coming from, but he could have accomplished what he wanted to do without releasing specific names (which serves no purpose at all.) No I don't have any sources of anyone who died because of Wikileaks, hopefully 0 people died, but the fact remains that he could have done what he wanted to without being so careless to certain people's identities.

And now he is playing the victim card, not caring that he broke British law and may very well have committed rape according to Swedish law. I don't care what kind of a saint someone is, they commit/are accused of a crime, they get investigated. If innocent, then they get released.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
No I don't have any sources of anyone who died because of Wikileaks, hopefully 0 people died,

well that was moo was saying that...lives were possibly in harm's way because of the release of these cables....and of course it's a moo argument   

Quoting moo (Reply 53):
And yet, nothing he splurged out into the world has really come as anything new with regard to actions etc on behalf of the US, despite your assertions to the opposite - nothing on extraordinary renditions, nothing on extra legal assassinations or executions etc etc. Just a lot of small fry things which you generally expect from even a mildly corrupt beurocracy engaged in wars, nothing systemic, nothing wide ranging, nothing which fundamentally damns a government.

wow.   



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4480 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 55):
well that was moo was saying that...lives were possibly in harm's way because of the release of these cables....and of course it's a moo argument

And it would seem that you completely misunderstood the argument.

Regardless of whether people actually died, the *manner* in which the documents were released did not account for any sort of responsible disclosure, protection or warning of anyone that was potentially in danger - Assange and WikiLeaks just dumped tens of thousands of documents out there into the public domain, allowing *anyone* to go through them unredacted, unvetted and contents unknown.

Its not about whether people actually died, its the fact that Assange didn't give a damn whether his actions actually could put people in harms way.

Understand the argument now? Or are you just going to ignore it again because it doesn't support your view of Assange?

Oh, and "wow    " doesn't constitute a good counter point in a discussion.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5669 posts, RR: 45
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4459 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 56):
its the fact that Assange didn't give a damn whether his actions actually could put people in harms way.

My point exactly RDU, Assange is after getting attention for himself regardless of who gets hurt.

I will say it again, there is a good case for greater transparency in the actions taken by governments, that transparency should never place individuals in harms way!
I am also firmly convinced that fools like Manning and Assange are not qualified to be the ones to provide that transparency.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

If he wants to paint himself (or any of you want to paint him) as a courageous whistle blower for releasing the documents, but not face the wrath of those he's exposed, that's sort of wanting to "have his cake and eat it, too." He may very well have done the right thing by exposing injustice...if so he needs to man up instead of hiding in a little piece of Ecuador. The most important part of the moral courage golf swing is the follow through.

But this isn't even about that. He stands accused of giving women an unwrapped gift...which if true makes him a bit of a douche I would say.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 58):
But this isn't even about that. He stands accused of giving women an unwrapped gift...which if true makes him a bit of a douche I would say.

Actually, from what I read, he is accused of having held forcibly down and entered one woman without the condom they previously agreed for him to use. They might have started consentual (having sex WITH a condom), but then he used force to get his way without the condom. In most countries using physical force IS considered rape.

As for the other one, he is accused of having entered her without protection (again against the agreements) while she was asleep. Which also, in most countries would be considered as rape.

So, if the accusations are true, he has something to answer for.
It seems that he is an egoistical bastard, who is used to get what he wants, no matter who gets hurt on the way.

Jan


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 59):
It seems that he is an egoistical bastard, who is used to get what he wants, no matter who gets hurt on the way.

This is perfect definition for US government too.

But I find it hard to believe that someone with as much publicity as he has would just go and rape some random women as it's obvious that they will report it.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
But I find it hard to believe that someone with as much publicity as he has would just go and rape some random women as it's obvious that they will report it.

Two nice definitions:

"Having a penis is like living your life being handcuffed to the village idiot"

"A man has a brain and a penis, but only enough blood to supply one of them at any given time".

I know enough cock controlled men, who totally forget what ever sense they have if they become sexually excited.

Jan


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

So far only one thing is certain about this business. That this low-budget TV movie, made right here in Melbourne (long before the latest Assange crisis erupted), is going to be a worldwide smash hit!  http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ente...-teen-struggle-20120911-25p5w.html

[Edited 2012-10-02 07:42:31]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
But I find it hard to believe that someone with as much publicity as he has would just go and rape some random women as it's obvious that they will report it.

It was far from random women.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
But I find it hard to believe that someone with as much publicity as he has would just go and rape some random women as it's obvious that they will report it.

1: why is it "hard to believe," 2: there's a good chance that the women wouldn't say anything (after all, they 'agreed' to consensual sex, going from that situation to not using a condom, aka rape, isn't that huge of a jump. plus rape is an extremely unreported crime.) 3: why should we decide this argument is BS, based on a Mr. Pvjin's opinion on a.net, and not the Swedish judicial system? It goes totally against the rule of law



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4330 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
3: why should we decide this argument is BS, based on a Mr. Pvjin's opinion on a.net, and not the Swedish judicial system? It goes totally against the rule of law

As long as Assange has not been proven guilty whole argument should be just ignored instead of blaming Assange for raping these women, he's innocent until proven otherwise.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 65):
he's innocent until proven otherwise.

And no one is saying he's guilty (well maybe there are, but not Sweden and not me.) Sweden isn't taking him to throw him in jail, they're trying to question him. It's very likely that once in Sweden, the case will be thrown out! That's how the judicial system works. That's like saying we should ignore every crime because people aren't proven guilty yet (and by ignoring the crime, you can't prove anyone guilty so there would just be lawlessness)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24959 posts, RR: 85
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4296 times:
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Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower. Is that really how you feel stealthz?

Well, strictly speaking "possible" war crimes, at least in the first batch, but okay, certainly "state secrets" - and there is a price for that.

He would be very naive to think that no one would call him to account.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower.

Yet, your view of the nation that is trying to expose his alleged crimes is:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them

I would assume you'd have the same attitude towards the two women who have come forward? Strange that one man can be a courageous hero for being a whistleblower because he is able to work the PR machine, yet others are written off as being liars/paid by foreign governments and so on...

If Assange did sexually assault these women (and I have absolutely no clue if he did or didn't), then surely we should be praising them for having the guts to do something about it in the face of such a powerful man, in exactly the same way that you praise the man himself for his actions?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
It's very likely that once in Sweden, the case will be thrown out!

   People aren't convicted of a serious offence like this and thrown in jail based on the word of a single witness... Unless there is additional evidence found to support the claims being made (evidence that won't exist if he did nothing wrong), then Assange has nothing to fear by returning to Sweden.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 696 posts, RR: 13
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 69):

Assange has nothing to fear by returning to Sweden.

A bit of conjecture based on everything I've read is that there IS evidence of condomless intercourse and that Assange is certain his tadpoles will be identifiable. It seems likely there is additional physical evidence: such as a ripped-off condom, bruising etc... that at minimum suggest Assange is a rough boy in the sack. Anyway, I am almost certain there is something to these accusations and that Julian is playing a card few sexual bullies have with the asylum claim
.



Pu

[Edited 2012-10-03 13:08:27 by srbmod]

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 52):
US attack helicopters gunning down innocent women and children covering it up and reporting it as a strike on "insurgents", Afghan war diaries, friendly fire incidents cover ups, have you seen the toxic dumps in Cote D'ivoire?!! Literally toxic sludge that has deformed thousands of people and their offspring...

Well, if you go back and look at the 'Collateral Murder' thread, you'll find that the US did in fact come clean back when it happened. All WikiLeaks did was editing the video for 'maximum political impact' (according to Assange) and lean back and watch the internet generation do the work for them.

The War Diaries (you can't trust the Afghans or Pakistan) was old news to anyone paying attention to the political situation in the area.

And so was the Cote d'Ivoire toxic spill, at least if you were in the UK and (again) paying attention. Google Trafigura and/or Carter-Ruck, it was a major political scandal at the time, that a private company was able to block UK newspapers from reporting what was being said (an MP had used his parliamentary privileges to spill the beans on the whole thing) in Parliament.

[Edited 2012-10-03 13:09:24 by srbmod]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Reading between the lines, it looks as if the 'possible future illness' may now have been promoted to an actual 'unknown illness.'

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange may be suffering from an unknown illness – and Ecuador is listening.

"Ecuador’s foreign minister Ricardo Patino asked Britain Foreign Secretary William Hague at the United Nations General Assembly if the fugitive could be permitted to leave his London hideout for medical treatment without risking arrest."


The British haven't changed their tune - as far as they're concerned he can leave the embassy any time; but only wearing police handcuffs. However, they also say that any illness is not a matter of 'immediate concern.'

"For about 100 days, Assange has been sheltered inside Ecuador’s embassy in London where he is beyond the reach of British police. Assange is avoiding extradition to Sweden for questioning over sex crimes allegations. If he steps outside of the embassy, Assange will be arrested and flown to Sweden.

"Assange, who made an appearance at a videolink for a meeting at the General Assembly, appeared pale and sounded hoarse. However, British officials insist there is no immediate concern about Assange’s health."


Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/new...ian-assanges-health/#ixzz28CeQ8b1h

Mind you, only the British say they're unconcerned. It remains to be seen whether the Ecuadorians, and especially Assange himself, are worried about the illness, whatever it is.

[Edited 2012-10-02 20:51:36]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4226 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 72):
Reading between the lines, it looks as if the 'possible future illness' may now been promoted to an actual 'unknown illness.'

Gotta be Mossad/the CIA  

But for real, hope he gets the treatment he needs.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 70):
I am almost certain there is something to these accusations and that Julian is playing a card few sexual bullies have with the asylum claim

As am I -- you don't go to this much trouble to avoid questioning if you've not done anything wrong.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
Gotta be Mossad/the CIA

Good one, DeltaMD90.  

I try to keep my posts as accurate as possible. A 'correction' to the previously-quoted story - the 'no immediate concern' comment apparently came from the Ecuadorian minister, Patino, not the British:-

"However, British officials said Mr Patino insisted there was no immediate concern about Assange's health."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ecu...eting/story-fnbzs1v0-1226483303150

Very likely, therefore, that the 'no immediate concern' thing is just as accurate as the rest of the stuff the Ecuadorians have been pushing out for months. And that Assange is actually quite seriously ill.

Can't help thinking that the Ecuadorians are handling this all wrong. Assange fought the Swedish extradition request for two whole years in the British courts, and lost. And, in addition, Assange is in breach of his bail conditions. There is no way in the world that the British government can just ignore those facts and let him walk around free. A lot of Assange's friends have already lost the bail money they put up for him; and others face the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in sureties unless Assange gives himself up soonest.

Ecuador shouldn't have entered this 'one-way street' in the first place. What they should do - basically the only practical thing they can do - is set a deadline for Assange to leave the embassy of his own accord and 'face the music.' Or, if he refuses to do that, throw him out anyway......

Quoting QF002 - "you don't go to this much trouble to avoid questioning if you've not done anything wrong."

Oddly enough, QF002, the feeling is growing on me that fear of prosecution - whether in Sweden or in the United States - is not Assange's main motivation. I reckon that his problem is probably the one thing that would be absolutely certain as soon as he was arrested and jailed by either country - no more computers/internet access.

Seems highly likely that he just can't face the idea of the end of Wikileaks........

[Edited 2012-10-02 22:38:49]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24959 posts, RR: 85
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4173 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 75):
Very likely, therefore, that the 'no immediate concern' thing is just as accurate as the rest of the stuff the Ecuadorians have been pushing out for months. And that Assange is actually quite seriously ill.

He may be quite seriously ill. But also, he wouldn't be the first to play the medical card. We just don't know - or I don't.

I believe him to be psychotic - which isn't a criticism - I think his view of the world is somewhat unbalanced, or deviates from the (generally accepted) norm.

Thus I don't think he would care if his backers have lost the bail money, since, in his view, the cause is flawless and justifies whatever it costs. The cause, of course, being himself and his work.

I'll say again, none of this is a criticism, just the way I see him. Some of his foes have described him as having a martyr complex and some of his fans have described him as a genius - I don't know if he is, but there have been any number of psychotic geniuses with a martyr complex. You probably need to be operating outside the norms to be a genius - or a martyr.

What I find curious is the complaint. Supposedly, he doesn't care where he is as long as he's in front of a computer, so I'm not sure why he would complain about his confinement because he has a computer in his room.

But before, he has always had options to go wherever he wants, overtly or covertly (international man of mystery?) flitting about in dark of night, turning up at chums houses. Now he has very few options. So you may be right:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 75):
I reckon that his problem is probably the one thing that would be absolutely certain as soon as he was arrested and jailed by either country - no more computers/internet access.

Or it may be that the confinement - that lack of mobility - is driving him doolalley and that if he is unwell, his mental stability may be the root cause of it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 75):
And that Assange is actually quite seriously ill.

Then he can come out and get medical care at the expense of the British Government - and no, crossed fingers doesn't count.

The only thing preventing him receiving treatment is himself.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 76):
Or it may be that the confinement - that lack of mobility - is driving him doolalley and that if he is unwell, his mental stability may be the root cause of it.

Maybe his problem is that his host is not providing ladies to keep him sated. And even Rosey Palm isn't helping.

But I'm sure he understands that prison won't be any better.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 696 posts, RR: 13
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 80):

nd I suppose that I had a 'ringside seat' for the whole event. We lived just north of London

I've read with great interest your posts about life during the war as WW2 is kind of my hobby!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 81):
be his problem is that his host is not providing ladies to keep him sated

Anybody ever worked in an office right under an air vent or that suffered with bad air filtration? With no access outdoors he is probably just geting gradually sicker and sicker from the air he breathes, microbes, dust, etc.

Pu

[Edited 2012-10-03 13:10:49 by srbmod]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
He may be quite seriously ill. But also, he wouldn't be the first to play the medical card.

Sure - but he, of all people, ought to be savvy enough to realise that the medical card won't work; unless and until he gives himself up. Especially if - referring to your last para. - any problem is mental rather than physical.

Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
I'm not sure why he would complain about his confinement because he has a computer in his room.

I do wonder if it's the Ecuadorians, not Assange, who are pushing the medical thing hardest, in the interests of trying to get rid of him. After all, having him around can hardly be 'good for business' - and (assuming they rent the place), what with coppers outside all the doors and even in the lift lobby and on the roof, they remain at risk of the landlords serving them with 'notice to quit' on grounds of denying the other tenants 'quiet enjoyment.' On the other hand, they probably feel that they can't just kick him out, their president would 'lose face.'

Quoting pu (Reply 78):
I've read with great interest your posts about life during the war as WW2 is kind of my hobby!

Glad you got to read it before it got axed for being 'off-topic,' pu.  



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24959 posts, RR: 85
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4004 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 79):
Sure - but he, of all people, ought to be savvy enough to realise that the medical card won't work; unless and until he gives himself up. Especially if - referring to your last para. - any problem is mental rather than physical.

I don't think he is necessarily thinking rationally about this. For all his brilliance (which I'm not questioning) he doesn't seem to have a lot of savvy about real-life.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, mental problems can affect physicality. When I had cancer I asked the docs the obvious (if silly) question - why? They said that it might just be unlucky, but almost certainly, in my case, it was caused by the stress of long years in a very high pressure job.

Assange clearly thought the Embassy was a means of escape, at least in the short term. Now he probably thinks he put himself in a prison.

Leopards don't change their spots. I think he's been living in a fantasy world of his own devising (psychosis/martyr-complex/genius - any or all of 'em) and is trapped in that.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 79):
I do wonder if it's the Ecuadorians, not Assange, who are pushing the medical thing hardest, in the interests of trying to get rid of him.

I think that may be entirely possible. I wondered if the Ecuadorians quite understood what they were embracing.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
I wondered if the Ecuadorians quite understood what they were embracing.

Pretty well total agreement, mariner. I'm quite certain that they didn't; that they (from the president down) thought that, once they'd granted him 'asylum,' they'd be free to put him in a cab to Heathrow and fly him to Quito, and the British police would be powerless to intervene. They know better now - but it's too late.

Sorry to hear about the cancer. I had a dose of it too; but it was prostate cancer. Didn't even think to ask if I'd been 'over-using' the organ concerned!   Hope your op. fixed it anyway - worked for me, no recurrence.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

Quote:

LONDON (Reuters) - Nine people who put up bail guarantees for Julian Assange argued in court on Wednesday they should not be forced to pay after the WikiLeaks founder sought refuge in the Ecuadorean embassy in London.

Vaughan Smith - one of the nine, who between them put up 140,000 pounds ($225,000) - told Westminster Magistrates Court in London they were not to blame for Assange violating the terms of his bail.

...

The case was "wholly exceptional" because Assange was claiming asylum when he broke bail, said Henry Blaxland, a lawyer for some of the guarantors, who include British Nobel prize-winning biologist John Sulston and Australian-born journalist Phillip Knightley.

"The fact is that Mr Assange has secured sanctuary as a political refugee in a country with which Great Britain has an established and normal diplomatic relationship. How can this fact have no legal standing?" Smith said in court, reading from a statement prepared by the guarantors, five of whom were present for the hearing.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/guarantors-...assange-bail-payout-190958355.html

He jumped bail, these people should lose their money - political asylum shouldn't have any standing, its not the courts fault he ran away either and they voluntarily put up the money to say that he wouldn't run.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

moo, the people who put up bail have already lost their money; because Assange definitely 'jumped bail' by not reporting to police at the appropriate time. The people who are now under pressure didn't put up bail, they provided 'sureties' - promised to pay over sums of money if he absconded.

The second group is claiming that he has not 'absconded,' but has instead been granted asylum by Ecuador because, to use the traditional phrase, he deserves protection "owing to a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion."

I suppose that it's worth their while to try this argument on, but I don't expect the judge to agree with them. After all, the United States has not done anything which could be construed as 'persecution'; nor has it even sought to extradite him. All that Assange is currently faced with is extradition to Sweden, where the only thing that awaits him is questioning and possible charges, which would be heard in a proper court in which he would be fully entitled to defend himself. There's no way at all that that could be held to be 'persecution' in any sense.

So I fully expect the judge to rule that the sureties are forfeit. But he'll have to write his verdict up very carefully, because I'm sure that Assange's (relatively wealthy) friends will undoubtedly appeal.

He may also say that the sureties need not be forfeited if, for example, Assange gives himself up within, shall we say, a week or two? Wouldn't that be fun?  

[Edited 2012-10-05 23:09:43]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24959 posts, RR: 85
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3716 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
Or it may be that the confinement - that lack of mobility - is driving him doolalley and that if he is unwell, his mental stability may be the root cause of it.

He's trying to grab the limelight again:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...-set-to-sue-pm-20121007-277h3.html

"Assange set to sue PM

JULIAN Assange has hired lawyers to find a way of suing Prime Minister Julia Gillard for defamation over the claim that WikiLeaks acted illegally in releasing a quarter of a million US diplomatic cables.
In an interview from Ecuador's embassy in London, Assange said Ms Gillard's comment, made in late 2010, influenced MasterCard Australia to join an online financial blockade of the organisation."


I think lack of attention - being out of the limelight or his solitary existence - is driving him doolalley.

He also complains about "lack of help" from the Australian consular service, which is a developing trend. The (now released) woman who was captured in Libya claimed that Australia had not done enough to help her.

I dunno. I once out myself in harm's way when I went to a small war zone on the Kenya/Uganda border. I was warned it was dangerous, I was devised not to go, but I did it deliberately, for the experience.

It got a bit hairy a few times (and very scary once), but it was my choice to go there and the last thing on my mind was help from Australia.

I was responsible for my own actions. So is Mr. Assange, who, it seems, can afford quite expensive lawyers.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
I'm quite certain that they didn't;

I wonder how much their decision was influenced by the friendly advice the British offered. You recall the bit about using a piece of British legislation to scrap the status of the Embassy and seize Assange. Did this prompt the Ecuadorians to grant asylum as a show of "we won't be intimidated"? They may now be wishing they hadn't.

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
He also complains about "lack of help" from the Australian consular service,

While we constantly hear claims that consular officials don't do enough when people get themselves into trouble, that is due to a lack of understanding of what powers officials actually have. Their powers are few and they certainly can't help you avoid due process. All they can really do is check up to see if he is OK, being treated humanely, offer to arrange legal advice (at his expense) and offer tea and sympathy.

However, given the Government's claims that officials have offered Assange every help available, his claim that all they did was bring a few notepads may be true. It is also true (as I posted in a previous thread) that the Government has indicated that it would have no objection to his extradition to the US if the US requested it.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
I was responsible for my own actions. So is Mr. Assange, who, it seems, can afford quite expensive lawyers.

Absolutely, mariner. And as to the 'expensive lawyers,' I wonder how the people who put up bail and sureties for Assange feel about that? There's no indication that Assange has offered a ha'penny to any of them.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 85):
I wonder how much their decision was influenced by the friendly advice the British offered. You recall the bit about using a piece of British legislation to scrap the status of the Embassy and seize Assange. Did this prompt the Ecuadorians to grant asylum

Quokkas, my recollection is that that 'threat' didn't come up until some days after Assange took refuge in the embassy. On all the evidence, the Ecuadorians didn't give any consideration to the 'legalities' of getting Assange out of Britain; the president just said 'jump!' and they jumped. And now they're stuck, with their only options being either to let him roost there forever, or to hand him over. Also, I believe that there are in fact options open to the British if they want to get really tough; basically to shut the embassy down on grounds that it has 'stepped out' of its diplomatic role, and is not cooperating and promoting good relations as all embassies should. Apparently they could start by making the ambassador persona non grata.

You're dead right in what you say about the Australian diplomats not being able to offer more than moral support. The extradition thing has been fought through right up to the supreme court, there's no way they can overturn it.

I checked up a bit on Assange's 'touching' plea that he couldn't visit his children. Only one of them is known about; Daniel Assange, who is 20 and living in Melbourne. He has spoken to the press and, among other things, said that he hasn't been 'visited' by his father since 2007:-

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/09/17/...r-thought-wikileaks-would-succeed/

And a guy who used to work for Assange claims that he has fathered at least four children with different women, one of whom is only six months old:-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/w...ldren-Book/articleshow/7474727.cms

[Edited 2012-10-07 22:55:39]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 86):
Quokkas, my recollection is that that 'threat' didn't come up until some days after Assange took refuge in the embassy.

Indeed, but before a decision was made. Either way, it is clear that the ramifications were not thought through.

The UK does have options regarding the Ecuadorian Embassy, as was pointed out in their letter explaining the law as it stands in Britain. The relevant law is the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987. This Act allows the Foreign Secretary to withdraw recognition from diplomatic premises. Section 1(3) says:
"In no case is land to be regarded as a state's diplomatic or consular premises for the purposes of any enactment or rule of law unless it has been so accepted or the secretary of state has given that state consent under this section in relation to it; and if —
(a) a state ceases to use land for the purposes of its mission or exclusively for the purposes of a consular post; or
(b) the secretary of state withdraws his acceptance or consent in relation to land,
it thereupon ceases to be diplomatic or consular premises for the purposes of all enactments and rules of law."
But section 1(4) says:
"The secretary of state shall only give or withdraw consent or withdraw acceptance if he is satisfied that to do so is permissible under international law,"
and under section 1(5) the minister " … shall have regard to all material considerations, and in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of this subsection —
(a) to the safety of the public;
(b) to national security; and
(c) to town and country planning."
Now it isn't clear that withdrawing recognition under the terms of 1(5) is relevant, so we are left with "international law" - the Vienna Convention. And in a letter to the Ecuadorian minister for foreign affairs delivered to Quito the UK Government stated:
“We need to reiterate that we consider the continued use of the diplomatic premises in this way incompatible with the Vienna Convention and unsustainable and we have made clear the serious implications that this has for our diplomatic relations."
The question that crops up is whether the UK Government regards the matter seriously enough to warrant expulsion of the Ambassador, his staff and raiding the premises with the possible retaliation by Ecuador, or whether a wait and see approach is better.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3619 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 87):
The question that crops up is whether the UK Government regards the matter seriously enough to warrant expulsion of the Ambassador, his staff and raiding the premises with the possible retaliation by Ecuador, or whether a wait and see approach is better.

Given that Assange isn't in danger of actually going anywhere, I can easily imagine that the UK (and by extension Sweden) are only happy to let him sit in the embassy until either Ecuador cancels his diplomatic protection and expels him, or he gets sick of being locked up away from the limelight and decides to play the martyr card by leaving of his own accord.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Assanges backers have lost most of their money  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19868355

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

I've been assuming that all these surety people were financially 'comfortable' - but it turns out that many of them are not.

Turns out that the judge concerned - the Chief Magistrate of the Westminster Court, Howard Riddle - took the trouble to look into the individual financial circumstances of each of the people concerned, and he has in fact ruled that, between them, they will only have to pay a reduced amount of 93,500 pounds, not the total amount of all the sureties (140,000 pounds). He appears to have settled on them paying more or less two-thirds of the full amount owing.

"Exercising power under section 120 (3) of the 1980 Magistrates Court Act, the Chief Magistrate said he adjudged each of the sureties had to pay part of the sum originally pledged, as follows:

"Tricia David £10,000, Caroline Evans £15,000, Joseph Farrell £3,500, Sarah Harrison £3,500, Phillip Knightley £15,000, Sarah Saunders £12,000, Vaughan Smith £12,000, John Sulston £15,000 and Tracy Worcester £7,500.

"He continued: "I say immediately that I have real respect for the way that the sureties have conducted themselves in difficult circumstances. I am satisfied that what they have said and written accurately reflects their genuine views.

----------------------

"The Chief Magistrate said he had taken account of the means of the nine, adding: "Professor David is a pensioner and the sum of £20,000 comprises a substantial portion of her savings jointly with her husband.

"Sarah Saunders has also provided details of her financial position and I am satisfied that she is of comparatively limited means. Mr Vaughan Smith tells me that if he forfeits the £20,000 surety it will have a significant impact on the welfare of his family and his employees. Having seen and heard from the sureties, I cannot avoid taking some account of their integrity.

"I approach this decision on the basis that I should forfeit no more than is necessary, in public policy, to maintain the integrity and confidence of the system of taking sureties so that a person may be released on bail."


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...ureties-by-next-month-8202233.html

I must admit that, up to now, I've been assuming that all these people weren't short of cash. Good for the judge for taking care, checking on their respective circumstances, and showing some compassion.

Just where, though, does this leave Assange? He's betrayed all the people who helped him with bail and sureties - many of whom, it now appears, couldn't really afford to risk their money; and just set out to save his own precious skin. He clearly has no intention of repaying any of them the money that they risked, and he threw away. Yet he still appears to have enough money to hire lawyers to try to build a case against the Australian prime minister.......

Seems to me that he's now revealed as the original 'four-letter man'............

[Edited 2012-10-08 06:52:07]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

I am not sure i have a lot of sympathy for those posted Assanges bail.

I put in in the same file as Vegas, never bet more than you can afford to loose.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3519 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So this Smith guy says it would be a "betrayal" to criticize Assange for skipping bail? Then he ought to pay up the entire amount. If you put up bail for someone then you are on the hook. Otherwise what's the point? This is a case of the government (in the form of a judicial appointee) allowing people to not suffer for their own stupidity. It doesn't teach anything useful and encourages further breakdown of the system.


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
He may be quite seriously ill. But also, he wouldn't be the first to play the medical card. We just don't know -

If he's really ill then they can call a doctor in to see him.

If that doesn't work then call an ambulance.

Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
The cause, of course, being himself and his work.

Actually, IMO, it's just himself.

Quoting pu (Reply 78):
With no access outdoors he is probably just geting gradually sicker and sicker from the air he breathes, microbes, dust, etc.

So he opens a window.

Then he can wave at the good folks who lost their money they put up for his bail.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
For all his brilliance (which I'm not questioning) he doesn't seem to have a lot of savvy about real-life.

There are a lot of very smart people in this world. What would be the count of people in the top 1% of intelligence? How many hundreds of millions?

This guy is nothing but an arrogant POS who just shafted all the decent people who believed in him.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
Giving him the benefit of the doubt,

Why?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 83):
So I fully expect the judge to rule that the sureties are forfeit.

That's happened:

Quote:

Nine people who put up bail sureties for Wikileaks founder Julian Assange have been ordered by a judge to pay thousands of pounds each.

Westminster Chief Magistrate Howard Riddle said they must pay a total of £93,500 by 6 November.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19868355

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
JULIAN Assange has hired lawyers to find a way of suing Prime Minister Julia Gillard for defamation over the claim that WikiLeaks acted illegally in releasing a quarter of a million US diplomatic cables.

That's a good one. Is he going to leave his little room for a deposition? If he fails then what ever lawyer was dumb enough to take his case will watch an unimpressed judge throw out the case.

Rule One when dealing with Assange? Get paid in full up front.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 87):
The UK does have options regarding the Ecuadorian Embassy, as was pointed out in their letter explaining the law as it stands in Britain.

It would be ironic if the Embassy is renting that property instead of owning it. And the Landlord decides to not renew the lease/rental agreement. Now that would be interesting.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 93):
It would be ironic if the Embassy is renting that property instead of owning it. And the Landlord decides to not renew the lease/rental agreement. Now that would be interesting.

Many years since I was involved in the British property market, Ken777 (they've literally added about three noughts to all the values since then  ). But it's unlikely that the Ecuadorians own their nine-room 'apartment.' The going rate for those is something over 2M. pounds, and even then you only get a leasehold interest. Most likely a pension fund owns the whole building, an individual investor has a 'substantive lease' (maybe 50-99 years) of this particular apartment, and the Ecuadorians rent from them on a shorter-term basis - anything from a five-year lease to the 'traditional' 21 years.........

However, there appears to be no need for anyone to wait until the Ecuadorians' lease expires. As I mentioned earlier, all leases contain a 'quiet enjoyment' clause, and my feeling is that (what with the police and demonstrators all over the place, and security men in the lobby) the Ecuadorians are definitely 'in breach' of that clause. So the owners of the building (or of the individual unit) could, as far as I can see, serve 'notice to quit' at any time.

Sure, it would probably take two or three months to get a judgment in court. But that would almost certainly go in the landlord's favour (meaning that both the Ecuadorians and Assange would be kicked out). And, given that Assange is talking about staying there for years, and the Ecuadorians aren't showing any sign of contradicting him, it might be a wise precaution for the owners to start such an action right away - just in case it's eventually needed.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
Many years since I was involved in the British property market

But you're still understanding the situation.

Thanks for the information. That might be an approach for the Embassy as it gets rid of their headache.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
Most likely a pension fund owns the whole building, an individual investor has a 'substantive lease' (maybe 50-99 years) of this particular apartment, and the Ecuadorians rent from them on a shorter-term basis - anything from a five-year lease to the 'traditional' 21 years.........

Isn´t most land in the City of London owned by some old, aristocrat families, who have owned it since the middle ages and just lease it out?

Jan


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 96):
Isn´t most land in the City of London owned by some old, aristocrat families, who have owned it since the middle ages and just lease it out?

Well, there is the old joke about the time the US wanted to buy Grosvenor Square in order to expand their embassy, and when they approached the Duke of Westminster to buy the freehold of the land, they were told they could do so when his family property in the US, which had been confiscated during the revolutionary wars.

Said property being what is now known as Maine and New York 


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
That might be an approach for the Embassy as it gets rid of their headache.

Yeah - if I was them I'd be quietly 'discussing' the issues with the building owners. Although, on reflection, that might not be 'advisable' in their case; we mustn't forget that they're answerable to a 'virtual dictator' and that giving asylum to Assange was initially his personal idea. He'll be wanting a solution that 'saves face' if possible........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 99, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Looks like Assange is indeed seriously ill:-

"ECUADOR is 'very concerned' about the health of Julian Assange after the WikiLeaks founder lost a lot of weight while staying at the country's embassy in London, a foreign ministry official said this week while in Moscow.

"The deputy foreign minister of Ecuador, Marco Albuja, expressed his concern for Assange as he gave a briefing to Russian press after wrapping up his delegation's visit to Russia.

"Assange has visibly lost weight, and we are very concerned for his health," he said, quoted by the Voice of Russia radio.

"In case of his illness we will have to pick among two options: to treat Mr Assange at the embassy or to hospitalise him."

'Ecuador has asked the British government for written assurances that Assange, who has been granted asylum by Quito and remains holed-up in the embassy building in London, will not be arrested in case of hospitalisation.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wor...ealth/story-fnd134gw-1226502757784

I can't figure why Ecuador keeps asking for 'safe transit.' They must know that Britain has no reason at all to grant it. Assange can go to hospital any time he likes, for as long as he needs to; but after that 'the law will take its course.' As, IMO, it should.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 100, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 99):
I can't figure why Ecuador keeps asking for 'safe transit.'

They are looking for a way to get rid of the guy - and I can't blame them.

The obvious part is that they don't appear to have called a Doctor in to see him. He just "looks" very ill, but it appears no doctor has been called.

I think it is more that the ambassador is sick & tired of the guy and wants him gone.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 101, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 100):
They are looking for a way to get rid of the guy - and I can't blame them.

Hi, Ken777, hope you're well?

Agree entirely - except that they have to pander to their dictatorial boss back in Ecuador....... who will lose a lot of face if his protege', after all this fuss, just gets tamely extradited to Sweden.

The only thing I disagree with is that I'm sure he'll have seen plenty of doctors. All of whom will have recommended hospitalisation.

[Edited 2012-10-24 09:03:35]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Maybe they can put something in the food they serve.

A chocolate cake with icing made from Ex-Lax?   


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 103, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 99):
I can't figure why Ecuador keeps asking for 'safe transit.' They must know that Britain has no reason at all to grant it. Assange can go to hospital any time he likes, for as long as he needs to; but after that 'the law will take its course.' As, IMO, it should.

I think it goes without saying that I agree with this completely - the current situation is 100% of Assanges own doing, and he's a wanted fugitive in the UK. He should have thought about that prior to confining himself to a poky little flat.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 104, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Huh - thanks to the wonders of google, I'm able to 'diagnose' Assange's problems.

"QUITO: Ecuador has requested a meeting with Britain to discuss the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who it says is losing weight and suffering vision problems as he languishes in Ecuador's embassy in London."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/ecuador-...-20121025-287i5.html#ixzz2AJWqdiLJ

This article says that virtually the only efficient source of Vitamin D is sunshine:-

"Vitamin D sufficiency, along with diet and exercise, has emerged as one of the most important preventive factors in human health. Hundreds of studies now link vitamin D deficiency with significantly higher rates of many forms of cancer, as well as heart disease, osteoporosis, multiple sclerosis and many other conditions and diseases.

"Because sunshine is a free commodity with no publicist or lobbyist, the Sunshine Vitamin Alliance is established as a coalition of right-minded physicians, individuals and organizations who advocate natural vitamin D production through regular, non-burning sun exposure.

"Humans make 90 percent of our vitamin D naturally from sunlight exposure to our skin specifically, from ultraviolet B exposure to the skin, which naturally initiates the conversion of cholesterol in the skin to vitamin D"


http://www.sunshinevitamin.org/

And this one says that staying indoors too much, crouched over computers or video games, is a primary cause of vision problems, due to the lack of stuff called 'dopamine'; of which sunlight is also a primary source:-

"SNUBBING the outdoors for books, video games and TV is the reason up to nine in ten school-leavers in big East Asian cities are near-sighted, according to a study published. Neither genes nor the mere increase in activities like reading and writing is to blame, the researchers suggest, but a simple lack of sunlight.

"Exposure to the sun's rays is believed to stimulate production of the chemical dopamine, which in turn stops the eyeball from growing elongated and distorting the focus of light entering the eye.

"It's pretty clear that it is bright light stimulating dopamine release which prevents myopia," researcher Ian Morgan of the Australian National University told AFP of the findings published in The Lancet medical journal.

"Yet the average primary school pupil in Singapore, where up to nine in 10 young adults are myopic, spent only about 30 minutes outdoors every day - compared with three hours for children in Australia where the myopia prevalence among children of European origin is about 10 percent."


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...blems/story-e6freuyi-1226346701710

So there you are, Assange old boy. That embassy is within a five-minute walk of Hyde Park. Just turn that blasted computer off, get in a few walks out in the sunshine and fresh air, and you'll be as 'right as rain' in no time...........  

No charge for the diagnosis.........  

[Edited 2012-10-25 06:11:18]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Can you really get enough sunshine in the UK at this time of the year? I thought it was raining or very cloudy most of the time like in here Finland.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 106, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 105):
Can you really get enough sunshine in the UK at this time of the year? I thought it was raining or very cloudy most of the time like in here Finland.

I'm currently sat outside on the decking in tshirt and jeans, in south east England and its nicely sunny right now   Oh, and I have a beer  


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 107, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 105):
Can you really get enough sunshine in the UK at this time of the year?

pvjin, if you have 'daylight,' it's always 'sunlight' - since there is no other source of light. Even though you may not be able to see the sun, because it's a cloudy day, if you're out of doors you're always receiving - and benefitting from - the sun's rays. The clouds just diminish that benefit, they don't eliminate it.

[Edited 2012-10-25 22:01:09]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 108, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
pvjin, if you have 'daylight,' it's always 'sunlight' - since there is no other source of light. Even though you may not be able to see the sun, because it's a cloudy day, if you're out of doors you're always receiving - and benefitting from - the sun's rays. The clouds just diminish that benefit, they don't eliminate it.

Ah ok, just wasn't sure if you still get enough light through clouds. Myself I take some additional vitamin D pills as during winter time even if there are no clouds at these latitudes sunlight isn't powerful enough.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 109, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 104):
This article says that virtually the only efficient source of Vitamin D is sunshine:-

The guy has a window in his little room. Open it, stick your head out for a bit. Maybe take of your t-shirt and sit by the open window. BFD.

He can also get a Rx for heavy duty Vitamin D.


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