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Should Romney Just Concede Now?  
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6952 times:

Given that Romney's 47% comment was the final, fatal, self-inflicte wound, should he just give up now? Why bother with the upcoming debates when one has no chance of winning?

I am saddened to see Romney flailing around like King Lear in the rain and we should put an end to this sorry spectacle. We are not Romans who would feed him to the lions for sport. The vultures are gathered, and pecking at his entrails already.

Given the dire economic situation, I would be more interested in President Obama's plans for his second term, and also to see the composition of the House. Will he prove to be one of America's greater leaders? Only time will tell; our opinions now are moot.

222 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2807 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6944 times:
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Quoting comorin (Thread starter):

Given that Romney's 47% comment was the final, fatal, self-inflicte wound, should he just give up now? Why bother with the upcoming debates when one has no chance of winning?

It hurt him but I wouldn't exactly fatal. The most recent polls I've seen didn't exactly have Obama up by 20%. I guess time will tell but I don't think fat lady has sung just yet.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6860 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Yes, he should just quit.

After all, he can't compete with free phones and F-bombs in commercials.

/sarcasm off



Not a Romney fan as I think everyone knows and detest his entire campaign management and strategy. Moreover, he's aloof at times, doesn't deliver a clear message and, while I believe him to be an honorable hard-working man who's earned his place in life, there is a major perception gap because he, to many people, represent the image of the eeevil rich white guy. I assign no value to that, just saying that's how I think he's perceived.

And he needs to let Ryan off the leash.

The Democrats play dirty and Romney won't even get in the ring.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
while I believe him to be an honorable hard-working man who's earned his place in life, there is a major perception gap because he, to many people, represent the image of the eeevil rich white guy.

That's why I mentioned about the 47% comment - after what he said, it must be really hard for a large number of those people to vote for him.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6915 times:

One thing to remember is that all opinion polls have a margin of error and he's not out of the race just yet. Sure he shot himself in the foot with the 47% comments, but when you consider that Todd Akin despite his infamous "legitimate rape" comment has managed to recover some support in Missouri and has the potential based on most recent polls and their margin or error of winning the race

I was listening to CNN while at one of my accounts the other day and they were discussing poll numbers and they mentioned that Jimmy Carter was ahead in the polls prior to the 1980 election and we all know how that ended up. Early voting has begun (or is about to begin) in some states and that too will factor into the poll numbers. Then again, the 47% comment may have done a lot more damage then we know and won't know until Election Day. There must be something in the water in Massachusetts, as the 47% comment is probably the biggest Presidential campaign gaffe since Dukakis's tank ad in 1988.....


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6915 times:

What kind of stupid question is this anyway. You do realize that in 1980 Carter was up in the polls right now. Do you think Regan should have quit? How about Bush in 2004 when Kerry was up in the polls until that night. Bush should have quit.
Honestly I guess it should not come as a surprise that a Obama supporter thinks someone should just quit.

Obama one of America greatest leaders? I don't think anyone will have that discussion yet. How about he wins his election first.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):

Yep, it's a shame people believe what the media and other side wants to depict him as.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

That would be suicide for the Republican Party IMO. I wish he'd do it and endorse Gary Johnson. I can dream...

And just to spice things up and have some people lose their minds, I'll show you guys this site:

http://unskewedpolls.com/

Romney is up about 7-10% in almost every poll! LOL

They do bring up a good point at how some polls may represent one side more than another, but other than that, I'm calling BS on their "polls"



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6872 times:

Should Romney Just Concede Now?.

Haha.Democrats would just love that.But both democrats and republicans are so fed up with Obama lies, flip-flops and failures of his 1st term that Romney will win it close.This is not 2008.

[Edited 2012-09-28 11:22:38]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6856 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):

The majority of the polls poll more democrats due to their large turnout in 2008. Thing is some are polling democrats like they will have an even larger turnout. We all know that wont happen. Even democrat analysist on CNN are reminding people that the only poll that counts is the election they don't want their base to get too confident. I think with many polls the way they are polling you can make the lead for Obama at least a point or 2 smaller.

I was watching MSNBC or "MSBS" and it said in a headline Obama up 9 points in Florida, CNN had President up around 4 points and the Miami Herald actually in Florida and left leaning had it as a tie.

I picked up the phone for a poll. They asked me general questions and then once I said Hispanic they asked me what type Central America, Mexico? Etc.. When I said Cuban they hung up. They don't want to have a Hispanic support Romney as most do in South Florida. Shows how great some of those polls are.

This one has not been wrong: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...sity-of-colorado-pr_n_1822933.html

Does anyone know if it gets updated? Or is a one time run?

[Edited 2012-09-28 11:26:10]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6499 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6847 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4):
One thing to remember is that all opinion polls have a margin of error and he's not out of the race just yet. Sure he shot himself in the foot with the 47% comments, but when you consider that Todd Akin despite his infamous "legitimate rape" comment has managed to recover some support in Missouri and has the potential based on most recent polls and their margin or error of winning the race

I was listening to CNN while at one of my accounts the other day and they were discussing poll numbers and they mentioned that Jimmy Carter was ahead in the polls prior to the 1980 election and we all know how that ended up. Early voting has begun (or is about to begin) in some states and that too will factor into the poll numbers. Then again, the 47% comment may have done a lot more damage then we know and won't know until Election Day. There must be something in the water in Massachusetts, as the 47% comment is probably the biggest Presidential campaign gaffe since Dukakis's tank ad in 1988.....

And also, a very important factor is this Republican cheating with the ID laws. We don't know how that will affect the outcome.




Quoting flymia (Reply 5):
How about Bush in 2004 when Kerry was up in the polls until that night.

Actually, Kerry was behind in the polls until the first debate. That debate got him back in the race.

Quoting flymia (Reply 5):
You do realize that in 1980 Carter was up in the polls right now.

Was that useless national polls, or state polls?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
Romney is up about 7-10% in almost every poll! LOL

They do bring up a good point at how some polls may represent one side more than another, but other than that, I'm calling BS on their "polls"

Like the Liberal leaning news media never skews any polls, do they. They always tell you the truth and never skew things , oh wait a minute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgm3_jzcNm4


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6609 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6824 times:
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Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Like the Liberal leaning news media never skews any polls, do they.

Fox News is liberal now?
"
New Fox News poll released Thursday shows Obama winning 3 key swing states

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-...s-obama-winning-3-key-swing-states

"Or at least that's what their "unskewed" polls had been showing up until yesterday when Fox News released its latest survey, which showed Obama up by 5 points, 48 percent to Romney's 43.'

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...vey_has_obama_beating_romney_.html



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6803 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):

"Or at least that's what their "unskewed" polls had been showing up until yesterday when Fox News released its latest survey, which showed Obama up by 5 points, 48 percent to Romney's 43.'

With a plus or minus 3 percent error. So Obama's either up by five percent , down by one percent,or tied with Romney You tell me, because you seem to be a firm believer in polls


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

Absolutely not. No matter what the pundits on either side of the aisle are saying, it's going to be a close race. Mark my words, come the second half of October we're going to see the polls "suddenly" tighten up. I could easily see Obama winning, but I could just as easily see Romney winning unless he just completely flops in the debates.

The issue with a lot of the current polls is that they're estimating Democrat voter turning being even greater than it was in 2008, which I think any level-headed Democrat or Obama supporter would acknowledge definitely won't be the case. Both candidates are far from having it in the bag at this point as, if Obama were truly so far and away in the lead in Virginia, Ohio, etc, why is he continuing to spend so much time campaigning there?


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8621 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

Of course he should stay, he had the best chance to win a general when the GOP picked him against others like Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann nine-nine-nine and others but now since he is starting to sound like the earlier candidates who say only they could win a general by going full tilt right, Mitt is finding himself between a rock and a hard place to win a general.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 12):
With a plus or minus 3 percent error. So Obama's either up by five percent , down by one percent,or tied with Romney You tell me, because you seem to be a firm believer in polls

Find a poll that's in your favor, can you find one or do you think FOX News polls are in the along with reliability conservative Rasmussen Reports polls are just in the tank for Obama and is all like what Rush Limbaugh says It''s all voter suppression on the left.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6695 times:

Yes he should, world doesn't need another Republican as US president. George W Bush already showed what it leads to, growing inequality, war, greed, terror.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12724 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6690 times:

Of course, Romney shouldn't concede now. He should help the economy by spending even more of his personal fortune buying advertisements, and then lose in a landslide!  
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 12):
With a plus or minus 3 percent error.

I looked at the various cited links and didn't find the margin of error quoted anywhere, and am having a hard time following your math.

If it's 48 to 43 and the error is plus or minus three percentage points, then Obama's number could be between 51 and 45, whereas Romney's number could be between 46 and 40. Thus Obama could be up as much as 11 points and down at most by 1 point.

If we're talking percentage instead of percentage points, of course, the error would be 48% * (1 +/- 0.03) but I doubt that's what you meant.

Just because that is the margin of error is three percent, it doesn't mean all outcomes in that 3 percent range are equally likely. The given numbers are the most likely, with decreasing probability of the other values occurring the further you get away from the given numbers:




Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
The majority of the polls poll more democrats due to their large turnout in 2008. Thing is some are polling democrats like they will have an even larger turnout. We all know that wont happen.

As far as I'm aware the pollers don't first select a given number of registered Democrats or Republicans according to some dubious numbers and then ask for their likely decision, they just select likely voters and then check how many of those are registered D or R, so the latter is just for information, not a selection criterion.

In other words: There is no such bias, there just happen to be more registered Ds than Rs.

Biases have more to do how with the actual polling is done, such as some polls only doing phone polls via landline numbers, thus skewing towards older and more R-leaning people.

[Edited 2012-09-28 13:38:39]

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6675 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
The majority of the polls poll more democrats due to their large turnout in 2008. Thing is some are polling democrats like they will have an even larger turnout. We all know that wont happen.

As far as I'm aware the pollers don't first select a given number of registered Democrats or Republicans according to some dubious numbers and then ask for their likely decision, they just select likely voters and then check how many of those are registered D or R, so the latter is just for information, not a selection criterion.

No, but you weight your data accordingly. Currently many of the polls are weighing Democrat voters greater than Republican voters, assuming as said that Democrat voter turn out will be greater than in 2008.


User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13646 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6640 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 18):
Currently many of the polls are weighing Democrat voters greater than Republican voters, assuming as said that Democrat voter turn out will be greater than in 2008.

  

Not only are they over-sampling Democrats, they're assuming record Democrat turnout. Not only will that not occur (many in Obama's base are disenchanted with him and aren't as eager to vote), but you have a VERY whipped up Republican base that will almost certainly end up with a huge Republican turnout.

Romney's going to win.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Yes, Rob-Me should just concede. And the Republican Party should concede that they are attempting to disenfranchise millions of voters in total nationwide with their sleazy voter ID laws in numerous states - although some state voter ID laws are now being overturned by their state supreme courts.

Do the Republicans realize that attacking minority and senior voters is NOT the way to broaden their base. The policies of divisiveness will haunt them in the future, as the population of the United States become less white - and much more diverse - the voters affected by this attempted voter "lock-out" will be highly unlikely to vote Republican if the future. Very stupid and highly short-sighted, just like the robber-barons on Wall Street that support the GOP....   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8328 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6632 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Moreover, he's aloof at times, doesn't deliver a clear message and, while I believe him to be an honorable hard-working man who's earned his place in life, there is a major perception gap because he, to many people, represent the image of the eeevil rich white guy.

The guy simply isn't comfortable out in the wild with the middle class. His entire life has been in the wealthy levels. He's not a bad man, but he is a bad option for President. Or a President who works for all Americans.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
And he needs to let Ryan off the leash.

Well, seems to me he has done all the damage he can. Wants to kill Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. What else do you want him to do?

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
The Democrats play dirty

And the Republicans never did? Not even Nixon? What about the Swift Boaters?

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
and Romney won't even get in the ring.

Romney can't. His entire campaign is to deflect simple questions on issues, like the economy. He only has a "secret plan" for helping the economy.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4):
the biggest Presidential campaign gaffe since Dukakis's tank ad in 1988.....

As bad as that looked, Dukakis did serve in the US Army after graduation from college and was deployed to Korea. But he did take a huge hit from that ad.


As for Romney, no politician that has worked hard enough to be a Presidential candidate will walk away just over a month before the election.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6609 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 18):

No, but you weight your data accordingly. Currently many of the polls are weighing Democrat voters greater than Republican voters, assuming as said that Democrat voter turn out will be greater than in 2008.

Including FOX?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
Not only are they over-sampling Democrats,

OK how do you know this? Have you done your own polling? How would you know that Fox is over sampling?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

There are actually polls which start out with lists of registered party supporters and only go from there? That's a completely ludicrous idea.

As far as I'm aware that is at least not the general method for getting a picture of the actual outcome of the election.

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:04:43]

User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6622 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
There is no such bias, there just happen to be more registered Ds than Rs


Correct.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 18):
No, but you weight your data accordingly

No.
They poll likely voters and report the percentage selecting Romney or Obama. There is no extra weight given to people who identify as democrats, insofar as their political affiliation is even asked for, which often it is not.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...t-surveys-20120927,0,5276434.story
...
Also, the allegation that Obama supporters, especially the young ones, will not turn out in 2012 is irrelevant to poll numbers, because the polls are of likely voters.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 9):
Was that useless national polls, or state polls?

EXACTLY.
Carter was perhaps winning in national polls up until the summer, but Reagan's comeback was evident in the polls by September. Anyway, national polls as you say, are useless. The only polls that matter are battleground states. The right leaning real clear politics, whcih averages all the polls,
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ections_electoral_college_map.html
...has Obama at 265 electoral votes out of 271 needed to win, with several previous tossup-states moving to lean Obama after the 47% remark and the embassy crisis.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:10:31]

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:13:09]

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:23:29]

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:48:05]

[Edited 2012-09-28 14:49:01]

25 Post contains images pu : The candidate leading in mid-September polling has won every election since 1948. . . . . Pu
26 zckls04 : No. His backers aren't paying him to give up- he has an obligation to them to stick it out.
27 ltbewr : He won't concede, won't give up, who know what can happen although the chances of Romney winning are decreasing. Even in losing, many Republicans will
28 seb146 : As long as there is FOX and AM radio, Romney should not concede. Seriously. Those are the same people who believe Obama was born in Kenya or Indonesia
29 zippyjet : Let him go the distance. He and his Ricky Ricardo looking running mate are not my cups of tea but, Mitt the money man will fare better than such down
30 3DoorsDown : Should Romney Just Concede Now? I would be interested in Obama's plans for his first term. Pelozi got Pelozi Care through. What did O do? Had someone
31 Revelation : Interesting, since many Republicans refuse to admit that a Mormon is a Christian. He can't be happy with Romney's half-hearted and vague endorsement
32 Aesma : There is no sense in conceding. If there was a world war going on then yes, it would make sense, so that people would unite behind the president. But
33 Post contains images jetblueguy22 : Wow, just wow. Explain this growing inequality. I also didn't know that greed was limited to Republicans . And terror? Really! The ignorance is incre
34 flyguy89 : Oh, so now all of a sudden Fox is the pinnacle of accuracy for you? Incorrect. If you want a decently accurate poll there are many factors that must
35 Aaron747 : This kind of stuff is why this kind of discussion never works. Have to at least have the facts straight! War? Vietnam? Started under LBJ, a Democrat.
36 pu : I posted a link from today's LA Times explaining how polls are NOT weighted to the benefit of either party. . Can you provide a source other than a r
37 Post contains links pu : This is bullsh*t. Polls are NOT weighted by party ID ;or "predicted turnout". . ...but if you provide a manstream source (not a blog or opinion piece
38 Revelation : Right after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? US "advisers" were in French Indochina in 1950 i.e. Truman's era. The French left in 1955, and US helped
39 Post contains links pu : US unemployment rate in November 1984 is 7.4% Pu http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate[Edited 2012-09-28 23:29:13]
40 Post contains links flyguy89 : "Weighting" does not inherently exist to skew polls for one party or the other but to make them more representative of the electorate for the reasons
41 Post contains links pu : So, I post direct links PROVING polls do not "weight their modeling using exit polls"as you claim. ... .....and you post an essay claiming they do? B
42 Post contains links flyguy89 : *facepalm* It's not about "predicted turnout", it's about their modeling in determining LIKELY voters in their sample, for which they use exit pollin
43 flyguy89 : He's probably no more or less credible than the opinion writers of the articles you've linked to. What make-believe falsehood would that be? That the
44 Klaus : It looks as if you've simply not understood the methodology being used. You have claimed that previously recorded party affiliation was the basis for
45 Post contains links Revelation : Strange how all the Romney supporters have is the hope that the pollsters are wrong, repeatedly, in several different swing states. I guess it's their
46 comorin : They are now know as 'Denialists' as per the local press. The premise of this thread was that Romney had fatally damaged his candidacy, so should sho
47 DeltaMD90 : This is kinda my fault, I posted that link in the beginning of the thread for laughs and I completely debo-ed the topic. I don't think any conspiracy
48 Revelation : Romney's utterances have surely changed that equation, and even worse for him, have fired up a lot of swing voters to vote against him.
49 seb146 : IMO, Romney is what Kerry was as far as enthusiasm. People listen to him speak and just kinda shrug their shoulders and say "well, okay..." That has
50 flyguy89 : I have not, it simply concerns the modeling they're using in determining LIKELY voters for which they use precedent (past presidential election). In
51 DocLightning : For those of you claiming that the polls are flawed. When Obama wins the election, are you going to claim that the election is invalid? That's my pred
52 Post contains links mt99 : So based on you information, what is the "right" number? Have you done your own polling? What number makes sense to you? http://graphics8.nytimes.com
53 DeltaMD90 : Actually I agree that the 47% remark was overhyped. I mean it was a dumb thing to say, and very inaccurate (there are Republicans in that 47% and the
54 Klaus : After the election the polls can be compared to the actual results, and that is basically where the adjustment factors will come from for the next el
55 DocLightning : The rhetoric from the right has been a LOT more vitriolic than it was in 2008. That whole "rise up and exercise your second-amendment rights" thing h
56 Post contains images flyguy89 : I think Gallup and Rasmussen are probably the most accurate as they use a combination of 2004 and 2008 in their modeling. Why would the New York Time
57 Post contains links flymia : You can't be serious. Sarcasm right? There is going to be no "revolt" and no one is going to say the election was a fraud. If turnout for Republicans
58 seb146 : I also do not think Romney should concede because that makes his charicter look even worse. It's bad enough he is secretive about his finances and tha
59 Post contains links pu : FlyMia, That ultra right wing Republican surrogate Augusta paper? Really? . Try looking up the facts on your own. Carter WAS NOT ahead in the polls at
60 connies4ever : Even conceding some type of American presence in Vietnam as early as 1950, I don't think substantial numbers were there until late in Ike's 2nd term,
61 Dreadnought : There is a lot of propaganda going on from the Obama campaign through their compliant media channels. Just stop and consider just how deranged your th
62 DeltaMD90 : I don't know why people argue what a party did 50 years ago. It makes me cringe when I hear that Republicans are good because Lincoln was a Republica
63 Post contains links pu : "Fox News polls are not weighted by political party" http://www.foxnews.com/topics/fox-news-polls.htm
64 Post contains links pu : Is it deranged to believe polling results by nonpartisan polling organisations? Or deranged to think you have a feel for pupoplarity based on your in
65 Dreadnought : A perfect example of propaganda that I was talking about. You are comparing a single comment by Romney, which turned out to be factual, to the entire
66 flyguy89 : Again, all of the links you've posted are opinion pieces, mostly from reliably Left-wing news outlets.
67 Aesma : You have to be deranged to think that all those are only Obama's fault or doing. Fact is, even if Obama loses, he'll get 47% easily (don't know why I
68 Post contains links pu : Care to explain how and why left, right and nonpartisan polling organisations all agree Obama's foreign policy is more popular than Romney's Foreign
69 Post contains links pu : Where are your cites from reliable news outlets? I have cited Fox News The Los Angeles Times The Guardian Orlando's local newspaper ... you have cite
70 Post contains links pu : http://quinnipiacpoll.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/election-polling-101/ . . .
71 flyguy89 : Again, any time someone has posted a link, you instantly denounce whoever the writer is and then demand a "non-right-wing/non-opinion" piece be cited
72 mt99 : Lets take these in a different parts How do you know that all the above are not popular? Please don't point to any poll because we all know how they
73 Post contains links DocLightning : Ya, rly. Not a successful revolt, but a riot with firearms, which could get very ugly. http://wisesloth.wordpress.com/2012/...-to-make-the-world-a-be
74 Post contains images flyguy89 : I'm well aware. I stated previously that I have no doubt that Obama is leading in the polls, my concern was the margin that certain polls had him lea
75 Darksnowynight : What's horrific about making it better than it was before? Does Romney's "Shut up and don't worry about it" plan honestly sound better to you? If so,
76 Post contains links pu : Please provide the names of the polls that are "weighing Democrat voters greater than Republican voters" and the source that proves they are doing th
77 DocLightning : That Federal Building in Oklahoma was a domestic terrorist attack by a Right-Wing extremist.
78 type-rated : Romney's early campaign touted the fact that he would get rid of Obamacare. Then around Sept 4 or so he says he likes parts of Obamacare and may keep
79 Post contains links and images flyguy89 : For the last time, it has nothing to do with party affiliation, but past voter behavior which IS a factor in screening likely voters, their methodolo
80 PHX787 : I just hope this country wakes up and sees that choosing a guy who has failed consistently over the last 4 years is a worse choice than choosing someo
81 Post contains images Klaus : He's more successful at getting people to listen to him than most of his fellow politicians are, which apparently earns him your resentment, but "nar
82 Post contains links EA CO AS : http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journal...licans-Will-Break-All-Time-Records Fair-use excerpt: Here are the CBS/New York Times internals. And here's the
83 Klaus : It would be a "con" only if the results were intentionally distorted. You have produced zero evidence for that actually being the case. Polls reflect
84 kngkyle : As Stephen Colbert so eloquently put, the Republicans are working through the first phase of grief: denial. Obama can't possibly be ahead by that much
85 Post contains links comorin : I am starting to feel that the sale of tin foil hats is the jump start the U.S. economy needs. Next we will be talking about faith-based statistical d
86 pu : versus Pu
87 Revelation : Don't worry about it so much. The GOP are looking for something to blame for thier upcoming loss. Yeah it's not too original to blame it on leftists
88 Aaron747 : ??? The fiscal cliff is coming no matter which party is in power. That should be plainly obvious to any objective witness of the US political machine
89 Klaus : Which "back room deals" would that actually be, in particular, which would have been out in the open otherwise? Apparently simply because there's not
90 Post contains images Revelation : I'm not sure my point is getting across correctly. No one lays down all their cards in the open. My point is really about the way he's been doing his
91 Post contains images flyguy89 : Right, because "Either vote to raise taxes on the rich or we're going to let taxes go up on everybody" is so acquiescing of him. His supporters, oppo
92 mt99 : Romney wants to close "loopholes" isn't that effectively a tax increase?
93 ltbewr : There may be several potential issues with the polls and actual election numbers we don't see yet. We don't know the affects of the voter ID laws in a
94 Aaron747 : Only if you're looking at things through the filter of American reality. This of course is the problem with most Americans living in their domestic b
95 Aesma : I read here a lot that Democratic turnout was exceptional in 2008, which I tend to believe. We had the same situation here in 2007. One candidate, Sar
96 flyguy89 : No because he also wants to decrease marginal rates which also broadens the tax base. And that's the only reality that matters in the election. I've
97 Aesma : Since you were here during the French elections, you might have noticed that this time no great promises were made. Still, opinion polls are already b
98 Post contains links mt99 : But how? Ryan had the chance to explain today.. but he couldn't.. He did say though that first to have to pay more in taxes where the "rich" http://w
99 flyguy89 : It was actually very interesting. Most everyone I talked to seemed sure that Sarkozy would probably win, but then he lurched to the right to try and
100 Post contains links mt99 : He didn't say that in that video... Why not? You feel that they cannot make they own excuses? On the flip side.. how does lower taxes for the rich eq
101 cws818 : Where were you in 2004? That is precisely the problem!!!!
102 flyguy89 : Yeah I watched the video and I fail to see where the issue was except for that "I don't have time to go through all the math" soundbite Left-leaning
103 mt99 : I can tell you the story of a country that spent its way out of the Great Depression... Now you show me how the increased wealth of the Forbes 400 af
104 flyguy89 : ...thanks to WWII! It's well known that FDR's policies did little to improve the depression situation and even arguable that he prolonged it, no you
105 mt99 : What makes you think that i am doing so? Ryan seems to focus on these Rich people first? you didn't see the video? It did not work last year here did
106 Darksnowynight : No, it's well guessed. There's as much, if not more, evidence to the contrary, not limited to the recession that immediately followed WWII. A lot of
107 Post contains images EA CO AS : How is it a problem? It worked flawlessly for Obama in 2008; he only talked in broad strokes about "hope" and "change" but never quite got into speci
108 mt99 : Oh.. and WWII was free.. i forgot! How is war not government expenditure?[Edited 2012-09-30 20:20:42]
109 flyguy89 : Because you keep railing on and on about the Forbes 400, I watched the video and he's only focusing on these "Rich people" in saying their deductions
110 PHX787 : Unable to vote. I would've probably voted third party. Well we know Obama has failed. We don't know about Romney.
111 mt99 : Aha!!! Class warfare! Attack the rich!! Paging Karl Marx.. Class warfare from the GOP!!! Because Corporations are people right? I guess as long a CEO
112 Dreadnought : What do you expect? The wealthy will always do OK - even if you increase their taxes to ridiculous levels, or impose other stringent regulations on t
113 BMI727 : Contrary to what you may have been taught in high school, the New Deal was a failure, not unlike how Obama's stimulus failed to end this recession. S
114 cws818 : That is because he consistently refuses to give any specific plans when asked for them.
115 mt99 : Well thank God - i was worried. But that did not happen last year, or the year prior - their taxes have remained the same.. their wealth increased an
116 flyguy89 : Not really, the numbers on employment, taxes, revenues, job creation in those years are all very straight forward. FDR spent A LOT of money with litt
117 EA CO AS : If that's the case, why didn't you support and/or vote for McCain in 2008? After all, the left's sole narrative was that he was just like Bush...
118 mt99 : Its is you who is sugesting we use wars as a stimulus pacakge. By making 1+1=8? How is he going to do if? Oh yes the has no time to explain. Just tru
119 Darksnowynight : Again, all of which, and thensome, were given back in the recession that followed. WWII had to happen for obvious reasons, but to say it saved us fro
120 BMI727 : It did. When the factories had to start churning out equipment for the retooling of the US military and the allies is the point when people started r
121 flyguy89 : Point to where I suggested that. Where do you get 1+1=8? I'm not sure how much more straightforward you can get, the marginal rates would be lowered
122 Post contains images Klaus : And the funds for military programs come from where in your theory? In reality, they come from a) taxes, b) debt or c) inflation. (With inflation mea
123 BMI727 : Taxes, and considering that the military is one of the essential functions of government, it's money well spent. That said, a healthy economy will al
124 Darksnowynight : As opposed to that "winner" defense program of ours that takes about a decade to admit that it lost a war the previous administration was sure was an
125 BMI727 : Not even close. There are plenty of savings in ending two overseas wars, but some of that money is going to have to go towards restoring and retoolin
126 seb146 : So, the wealthy (a.k.a. "Job Creators") are doing well according to you. They can create jobs. Where are the jobs? Even if taxes on Job Creators are
127 Post contains images flyguy89 : Do they have the financial means to create jobs? Obviously. But why would they do it if you're making it impossible for them to do so profitably? Try
128 Dreadnought : Their actual taxes remained the same, but financial decisions are made according to EXPECTATIONS, and those expectations are that taxes and regulatio
129 pvjin : Do you realise that the very same terrorist organizations that US is fighting against gained their popularity only because US military kept messing a
130 Post contains images mt99 : Here: Because talk is cheap. I can promise you a 5% Flat for everyone. Would you believe me without proof? Sigh - no it like you getting 11 donuts af
131 casinterest : On this I agree, but we both know politicians don't want to give away carrots. They need these for votes. The true problem is that we have a federal
132 Post contains images zckls04 : I agree with you on the racism point, it's rather hackneyed now, but I really have to red flag this. Herman Cain was never a serious contender for an
133 Post contains images flyguy89 : Nowhere in there did I suggest we use wars to get us out of recessions, try again. The proof is in history as I've pointed out before, but even takin
134 Post contains images flyingturtle : Thank you from a statistics guy. Back to the topic: Of course Romney shouldn't concede. I want a tough race, even if I want Obama to win. Is there an
135 connies4ever : "My proof is history" ... well then you're cherry picking points, not reading the whole narrative. Yes, Reagan cut taxes, and when the deficit rose t
136 flyguy89 : Incorrect, he was absolutely a net tax cutter. The top rates went from 70% to 28% during his presidency, your assertion is disingenuous. He agreed to
137 mt99 : It wont. How does Romney's plan compete with $350 per month wages in china? Specific please. You want me to quote you again? Its very clear you where
138 Post contains links flyguy89 : It's a misnomer that we would have to lower wages to China's level to be competitive, and Romney's plan which lessens the cost of doing business in t
139 mt99 : Prove that they got more money than they would have gotten otherwise... OK - so you said nothing concrete..you say "further decease" - decrease by ho
140 seb146 : They are paying the least in taxes in the history of the United States. I think they don't have a problem with profit. I think you just don't want th
141 Post contains images Dreadnought : As you well know, the popularly used unemployment rate (U-3) is a political creation. U-6, which includes people who have fallen out of U-3 because t
142 Post contains images flyguy89 : What makes you think they would have gotten more if their profits had been less? They profit-share at a certain proportion of the profits made. Does
143 mt99 : Well "re-investing" does not goes into the "profits" does it? Its your story man.. not mines.. burden of proof is in you .. P You can make more profi
144 flyguy89 : What? Re-investing occurs because profits provide the capital to make it possible. Why am I the only one with the burden of proof here? For the fifth
145 mt99 : Right - but if that extra income was re-invested, there is no profit sharing from that. There is not a "fixed" amount for profits Because you are try
146 Post contains links flyguy89 : Considering that profit-sharing is typically calculated as a certain percentage of profits, if profits are larger, profit sharing is larger. But that
147 zckls04 : That might say more about them than him. I really can't stand people who think ignorance is an admirable quality, and he had it in spades. Cain was a
148 seb146 : Ask the untaxed "job creators". So, the number of people with jobs is going up, but the number of people without jobs is going up? How does that work
149 Aesma : I wonder why for the conservatives climate change is a myth or junk science or whatever, but one economic theory seems to be a fact as true as what is
150 Post contains links mt99 : You already have it.. You found it yourself. Now your turn.. show me how Romney's plan (with real number please) fares any better. Hmm if GE can prod
151 soon7x7 : Obama should...he is already a proven failure...Romney's Plan?...what is Obama's Plan...another four years of lies and unsatisfactory results.
152 Post contains links mt99 : Unsatisfactory for whom? Not the Forbes 400. That all that matters buddy. Get your priorities straight! "The combined net worth of the 2012 class of
153 DeltaMD90 : This is very true and there is a lot of ignorance in this area. I don't give those arguments the light of day. The ones I've heard that at least make
154 Post contains links flyguy89 : No, Obama is the one that made that promise. Because the jobs being created monthly are not enough to keep up with workforce growth. So let's say in
155 Post contains links mt99 : Sorry - you already provided link about. I accept that it would cost 700,000 jobs. Exactly. He has been doing it for 4 year. You know his plan. Detai
156 Post contains links and images flyguy89 : http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...-economists-back-mitt-romneys-plan Why is something that has been tried and tested before with great success no
157 Post contains links mt99 : Nobel prize? Obama has one of those.. That makes Nobel Prizes impressive don't they? Nope. Leeches were used ones with great success in medical treat
158 flyguy89 : I agree, but that's only five of the 400 economists who endorsed Romney's plan. Another illogical fallacy, we actually have numbers on the greatly in
159 Post contains links mt99 : I dont believe you. Can you name the other 395? He did almost double the deficit though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Budget_Deficit_1971_to_2001
160 Dreadnought : Are you implying that giving to the government is better than giving to charities?
161 mt99 : No. never. I described Romeny's Plan not mines,. He would limit deductions from charity donations to $17,000. Scary Stuff huh? Guess he doesn't think
162 flyguy89 : LOL did you not read the article? He did, but it was driven by increases in defense spending, but at the same time hundreds of thousands of jobs were
163 Post contains links mt99 : I did - i did not see 400 names, Make you a deal - ill settle for half.. Start naming,.. So government spending is good.. Now you are back to saying
164 Klaus : Classic deficit spending for jobs, which is something the GOP most fervently condemns – at least as long as nobody points out how inconsistent that
165 Post contains images BMI727 : I'm all for rationalization and not spending for the sake of spending. The Reagan defense push was the aftermath of the neglect the military (among o
166 flyguy89 : Oh really? So they're just lying? *facepalm* Gary Becker, Nobel laureate James Buchanan, Nobel laureate Robert Lucas, Nobel laureate Robert Mundell,
167 Post contains links flyingturtle : I agree with Klaus' point. And the ARPANET cost a microscopic fraction of the then-time military budget. Civil engineering projects give more people
168 BMI727 : But it's wrong because 1) healthy defense spending is necessary to maintain national security and 2) such spending acts as a stimulus and creates mas
169 Post contains images connies4ever : A tax raise is a tax raise. Would not have passed muster with the Tea party, had it existed then. Result: congressional gridlock. Not quite 100%. The
170 flyguy89 : You're being extremely disingenuous then if you're trying to label Reagan as a tax-increasor when he cut the rates from 70% down to 25% and then rais
171 flymia : Ok we can close this thread now. The debate gave Romney a nice momentum swing until the next debate.
172 comorin : As the OP, I am in full agreement and request a lock on the thread.
173 soon7x7 : My priorities are doing just fine,...thanks for your concern. Last night only substantiated my position. It is as easy as black and white.
174 mt99 : Due to impending thread lock.. i wontr reply to flyguy89.. I'll do a Romney: I have all the correct answers - I wont tell you what they are - But jus
175 Darksnowynight : Right. And we need a million+ soldiers for what then? We'll I'd have said closer to 20 - 25, but I think that might be cutting it a little fine, henc
176 flyguy89 : Well we all know that you want communist, human rights abuser China to "step-up" and be a military power on par with us....so have fun with that one.
177 BMI727 : It may not be a million soldiers. I've said in the past that the future of the military may be smaller in manpower, but that doesn't necessarily tran
178 pvjin : Nobody forces United States to interfere with every damn conflict around the world. I am very sure that 9/11 attacks and terrorism against United Sta
179 DeltaMD90 : I say we keep a right sized but still powerful military. Who cares if China messes with the world and pisses off the Middle East or something. Look a
180 Darksnowynight : But I'm not advocating neglect. I'm advocating outright dismantlement of literally everything that is not essential to maintaining the integrity of o
181 PHX787 : Ah Yes I've heard about you. You're the guy who always blames America. I'd like to say this before I pull the topic back on track: If we have not bee
182 Darksnowynight : Right. This is more or less what I've been saying for quite a while here. More so, if we're so worried about China's human rights record, we better l
183 DeltaMD90 : And sometimes we answer even when duty doesn't call. I wasn't around for the paranoid of the 1960s-1970s so I can't really answer for that, but do yo
184 BMI727 : Then you aren't dismantling that much at all. A lot of that is post-discharge benefits. I'm all for looking at and rationalizing the packages offered
185 DeltaMD90 : I think you'd somewhat change your mind, even just a little bit, if you knew how much the US military wasted. I cringed a few years ago when we loade
186 BMI727 : I'm not saying we shouldn't squeeze the most out of every dollar, just that even with doing that maintaining a sufficient defense is going to take a
187 flyguy89 : It's not as simple as that unfortunately. I'm not concerned about what China alone might do militarily as the US military still bests that of the Chi
188 Post contains links Dreadnought : Maybe so - Obama just got a surprise endorsement. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ection-obama-idUSL1E8KU37A20120930 CARACAS, Sept 30 (Reuters
189 pvjin : Sometimes I feel being part of USSR would be better than being part of euroclowns who now tell what to do from Brussels. After Stalin Soviet Union wo
190 PlanesNTrains : Really? So if the US decides to invade Finland tomorrow, everyone should just mind their own business? Unreal. It is exactly this ambivalence that fue
191 BMI727 : I imagine quite a few eastern Europeans would disagree with you. Of course I hear that North Korea is still open for business. ...but... We should st
192 pvjin : Well at least after Stalin genocide was over and people were not forced to move to Siberia anymore. Nah, North Korea is horrible country and its Juch
193 soon7x7 : I'm with you on this...My tax dollars would be better off going towards our own infrastructure, bring manufacturing back to the US, getting more mone
194 Revelation : Sadly it's not an either/or situation - neither party is talking about serious cuts to foreign aid or military spending. It seems they prefer to argu
195 pvjin : Well, these terrorists obviously hated United States, and that hate comes from US supporting Israel and messing around in Middle East, so obviously i
196 DeltaMD90 : Um, as long as we have a strong enough of a military to defend our country, who cares if the Chinese make a Soviet style empire? I don't know, maybe
197 bjorn14 : I'm still waiting for him to do something that would actually earn him the Nobel Peace Prize. The Norwegians just might have just as well burned the
198 pvjin : Yeah, and truly Soviet Union & China taking other countries under their influence is no different from the way US has acted for example with Cuba
199 cws818 : Sadly, why? So the United States should seek to cause armed conflicts in the name of making money? I cannot decide whether that idea is deplorable, s
200 BMI727 : You need not give people reasons to have conflicts. You can, however, do quite well providing the equipment to do it with. Profitable, the word is pr
201 cws818 : If the only way you can make lemonade is out of death, destruction, and carnage, then you need to find a new recipe and a new world view.
202 pvjin : We already saw what that kind of politics do, 9/11 and then as a result also a massive bankrupt of airlines worldwide as if economics were more impor
203 Post contains images soon7x7 : I'll say this given due respect as according to your Bio...you are young, so having said that...you only regurgitate what you have been taught, or wh
204 pvjin : Yeah got to agree that most conflicts and wars are caused by the government, not people... But unfortunately those terrorists seem to think that civil
205 Post contains links DeltaMD90 : You'd find us to be quite the same as you guys I believe. I have heard you complain about being in the EU... so technically, whatever the EU does (ri
206 BMI727 : It's not the only way, but it is a pretty damn good way. People, by their nature, will never run out of things to fight about. Get the government to
207 zippyjet : According to the history books the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
208 Post contains images aloges : I think that was his point...
209 Post contains images zippyjet : Must have been a typo but originally it said Germany bombed Pearl Harbor. Back to the thread at hand: Mittens put on a steller dog and pony show at d
210 Post contains links Dreadnought : A reference to John Belushi in Animal House http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI
211 soon7x7 : Actually quite the opposite...they very well understand the power of public opinion and the power of the press, that is the whole reason for terroris
212 pvjin : Well I mainly thought about average uneducated suicide bomber, of course then their leadership is often well educated, like Osama who got a lot of tra
213 Post contains links flyguy89 : Because it certainly couldn't be Obama accepting donations from shadowy sources. ...oops http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-foreign-donor-scandal-
214 Post contains links Dreadnought : Many such nutcases, including Muhammed Atta, the leader of the 9/11 attacks and technocally the first man to splatter himself into the WTC towers, we
215 dtw9 : Now that the latest polls show Romney with a 4 point lead over Obama and considering that poor showing Obama had in the first debate(you know that de
216 Post contains links and images EA CO AS : http://www.people-press.org/2012/10/...te-performance-erases-obamas-lead/
217 zippyjet : But let's face it Fox and GOP go together like good corn beef and Goulds Mustard. MSNBC now may skew left now but if they thought they could make it
218 cws818 : No, it is a horrible way. If you cannot see that, or refuse to admit that, what a tragedy. That is not a good reason to encourage such fights
219 BMI727 : It isn't necessarily encouraging it. Who's going to want to go to war when all their enemies are just as well armed as they are?
220 Darksnowynight : Not from me you won't. From the inception of the resulting War on Terror, we have made the fundamental mistake of misjudging our enemies' motivations
221 BMI727 : They were also ordered to do so by a crazy man. Not to mention that the possession of exceptionally powerful weapons on both sides keep the Cold War
222 cws818 : But you are not necessarily discouraging such fights, either. Instead, you seem to relish, with a great deal of glee, the money that you could - some
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