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Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work  
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son
Reuters

Another sad example of how the armed self defense mentality cause more sorrow than good. With the many cases too similar to this and the many, many accidental shootings what does it take for the pro gun lobby to accept things must change? That the current "self-defense" mentality is killing and injuring far more people than it is worth. That the loose rules are supplying legally purchased weapons for illegal use.

How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible? For the mostly responsible gun owners to accept that the loose rules they advocate carry large responsability in what is happening.

151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4587 times:

If you are wandering around in the dark with a ski mask on, most likely you are not innocent. You can't fix stupid. However, I think there is more to this story than is being told. But for now, we know what we know.

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

LOL.

You take a story that is so incredibly vague as to what exactly happened, and use it as a justification for yet another anti-gun thread? And then put in a non-sequitor about "legal" guns being "illegally used"?

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot

Who said the kid was innocent of anything? From the article:

Quote:
"(He) was lying on the ground in the driveway with obvious gunshot injuries, holding a weapon," the statement said.

Believe it or not, sons and nephews are capable of doing horrific things to family members.


No, this thread is another example of the extreme nature of anti-gun activists, making up stuff about an incident to suit their agenda. Next time, try to stick to the facts.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-28 21:41:02]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

There are tens of thousands of responsible gun owners in the country. Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

This is a horrible tragedy. No question. However, there are people in places like Montana, Wyoming, California and all the states who own guns and own them for their own good reasons. Just like fishing rods. Many injuries are caused by fishing rods each year. We need to ban fishing rods. Now! They are evil! No more fishing rods because of all the injuries, right?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

I bet this dad is kicking himself harder than anybody else here can. I don't think we need to pile on him. Either he shot his son in mistake or his done made a mistake. He is going to have a heavy burden to bear, one that would break a lot of people.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently onlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4553 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):

   - We agree on something  

I'm ok to have tighter gun controls (say, for a concealed carry permit, you must have 15+ hrs of training or something), but I believe our constitution ensures us the right to own guns to keep for ourselves in our house for defense with little to no intrusion.

The flip side of the argument, cmf, is what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 7):
what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.

This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect? Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2769 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4540 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

So the kid runs into a house, the guy's sister calls her brother freaking out, the guy comes in, and shoots the intruder. It's beyond unfortunate that he shot his kid. I couldn't imagine how he felt when he realized who it is. But the problem is he came in with a ski mask on. This kid should have thought before he did it. It's unfortunate it came to that. But this isn't because a lack of gun control laws. If the gun is registered the guy did nothing illegal. The father was protecting his sister against someone he thought was trying to hurt her. If anybody tried to harm my sister I can assure you there would be a similar result.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8032 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe. It's a bit over the top to claim that there is no outrage about the endless scourge of violent crime in the United States - there is most certainly outrage, but as this problem has continued unabated to one extent or another since the Prohibition era (and arguably far longer even than that), most people are conditioned to the reality that this is part of our daily lives to some extent. Does that mean people should just accept it and not take steps to avoid being victimized?

The structural and cultural changes needed to eliminate serious crime in the US require decades of careful thought and execution and are not a reality any time soon, for anyone. Based on that alone, I would say people can and should protect themselves if they feel it's necessary.

One of the most interesting things about having been an expat for so long in a society with almost zero violent crime is the fact that the moment I am back on US soil, I suddenly become acutely aware of potentially threatening people everywhere I go. This was never the case when I lived in the US before - and is a prime example of the conditioning I mention above.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 9802 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4522 times:
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Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible?

Say what now? How about:

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drunk driving for car owners, as a group, to become responsible?

or

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

etc....

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect?

Not horrible to say at all, and quite true (though it seems we don't know what exactly the son was holding).



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.
..
But your point about drunk driving IS very persuasive. You could say in some sense all drivers ARE held financially responsible because we all participate in shared risk, called insurance premiums, whether we ever drunk drive or not. But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

Pu


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 9802 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4467 times:
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Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.

Ha, wow, reading over my post and remembering my frame of thought when I wrote it, I clearly lost the point with the 2nd example. So you're correct, not persuasive.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But we wouldn't take away every driver's license.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4453 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
But we wouldn't take away every driver's license

Ok.
But cars do in fact require licenses to use.
Guns don't.
And I actually don't think the non-gun-loving liberals really give a damn if everyone in rural America has a gun, hunts with it or just shoots targets for fun.
.
The real problem is in the cities where all the gun violence occurs. So you have all the liberals in the cities who hate guns anyway, being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended by law abiding suburbanites and rural folks, who have very little if any gun violence around. Thats why Chicago banned guns, and Chicagoans were happy about it.
.
Just my observation.

Pu


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?

I'm tired of these gun threads and wasn't going to respond, but surprisingly we agreed on most your points!  Wow!

I only disagree on this point ^^ what I expect when I get thousands of rounds is cheaper rounds. When I bought rounds for my Mosin-Nagant and rounds for my SKS, the former rounds aren't even sold in most stores and the latter are but for a much higher price than online bulk. I ordered a crate of ammo each, giving me about 2000 rounds each, but that doesn't mean I have all these rounds lying around and I'm dying to use them up on my roommate if he comes home later than I expect. These crates have (CHEAPLY) lasted a couple years so far. In the long run it'll save me hundreds of dollars.

While I don't deny there are the 'militia' folk out there that have a bunch of rounds ready for when the "guvment" comes and does whatever they think the evil government is gonna do, just ask normal gun owners who order thousands of rounds at a time why they do it. I'd bet $5 almost all would say either "cheaper in bulk" or "don't feel like constantly ordering more rounds" (because contrary to popular belief on this site, a gun owner and several of his friends can easily go through a few thousand rounds in a couple hours without being a terrorist)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 14):
being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended


Criminals do not have the right to own guns. Here is the problem. I believe that we should have some stricter gun control laws but I also believe law abiding citizens who pass stricter background test, safety test, shooting test etc.. should be allowed to carry a gun on them concealed. The real problem is criminals do not care about the law. It is already illegal for them to have a gun but they do not care. And no matter what the laws are they will find guns. As long as it is easy for criminals to get guns we should allow good citizens to protect themselves.

We need to work hard on taking the guns away from the criminals. Maybe if we spent more money on guns and less on non-harmful drugs like marijuana we could get something done.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8795 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4311 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son

Sounds like a Darwin Award to me.

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work 

You could look at it as an example of how it DOES work. It deleted a particularly stupid element from the gene pool, thus improving it. If we get rid of most/all safety regulations maybe after a few generations there won't be any morons left.

Just a thought 



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
You can't fix stupid.

You can't fix dead either.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
However, I think there is more to this story than is being told.

Like if the father had the sense to say "Stop or I'll Shoot" first...

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

I've heard it said many times that one the most painful things ever is to deal with the death of a child.

Can you imagine if it was you who killed your own son?

Nah, don't worry about that, just shoot first and ask questions later.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I only disagree on this point

I guess, having grown up in hunting country, I don't understand the point of buying semi-automatic or automatic weapons and buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week. It seems like a waste to me. Plus, I don't see any good reason why people need semi- or automatic weapons. A collecter can have a pass. I guess an older hunter who can't aim as well anymore. But, someone living in the middle of a huge city? Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?

People don't "need" semi- or automatic weapons. I don't feel like going down this road again. Maybe shooting is your cup of tea but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer,

I see it is unlikely that you have ever taken a water safety course or been a lifeguard.

Drowning swimmers are incredibly dangerous to rescuers. They instinctively want to climb on top of the rescuer to hold themselves higher in the water. Which of course pushes the rescuer deep underwater.

Probably half or more of the people trying to help drowning swimmers are actually killed by the person they are trying to rescue if the rescuer does not have proper training.

When trying to help someone in distress in the water, approach from behind them, keep them in a position where their hand cannot grab you, and if they do, dive deep to make them release you. It is often much safer to let them pass out and then bring them to a location where they can be revived.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe.

You are correct, but there are far fewer such robberies in the US than many people think.

The odds are significantly higher that a 'home invasion' is going to be someone you know - as in this case - than an actual stranger.

Even with the home invasion possibility - keeping a gun in your home increases the likelyhood of a death or injury due to gunshot from an accident, or angry relative.

Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety - unless you live in certain neighborhoods with very high crime occurences.

Yes, I have a gun in my home. Because I got it for Christmas when I was 10. I haven't hunted in over 40 years. All of my family have guns, except for the brother who lives in Houston.

One brother who lives on a rural farm in Arkansas has had his home broken into and guns stolen once, they were unable to get into his gun safe the second time.

They never pinned down who did the break-ins - but are 100% certain it was someone he knows who had been invited into the home at least once in the past.

Stranger on Stranger crime in the US is actually a very low percentage of our shootings.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

And unfortunately both have been legitimately criticized for the way they write up the incidents. They try to avoid mentioning the previous links between the victim and criminal. A great many of the 'self defense' incidents involve other members of the defender's family or his/her acquaintances.

[Edited 2012-09-29 09:45:34]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2331 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Chances are still higher that you'll shoot an innocent relative, a friend or a neighbor than a criminal. Your mind is primed to defend yourself, not to make sure who you are shooting at.

Such tragedies will happen with or without the killed wearing a ski mask.

The scenario I have much trouble with:

Your wife leaves the bed at 2 AM because she has to visit the toilet, or she has trouble sleeping, and so she is bustling around in the apartment with the room lights switched off in order not to disturb your sleep. You're waking up, hearing the noises, but not realizing that your wife isn't in your bed anymore... and you approach her with a drawn handgun.

Upon seeing you ready to shoot, I don't think she'll see you as her husband either. The words "Hi, it's just me!" are out of her mind.

Bang, bang.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

That's a sad turn of events and one I don't ever want to be a part of. And as such, I neither walk around wearing a ski mask in the wee hours nor do I own a gun. Problem solved.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5365 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

Maybe it worked out exactly the way it should have. Maybe the good guy did win and the son was out for trouble and would have done violence to the aunt and/or father. We don't and probably won't know.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety

We'll disagree here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk

Of course he does because he went from:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time

to:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week

That does change the discussion a little bit.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
A collecter can have a pass

Why is a collector any more special than me? Hell, I can just as easily call myself a collector. I have a collection of firearms.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
25 DeltaMD90 : I was gonna argue that (since I have an interest in antique Soviet firearms) but you have to take babysteps with him. He obviously enjoys (or at leas
26 Revelation : Right, the son is too dead to tell us what he was thinking, so the father will just have to wonder what was on the son's mind for the rest of his lif
27 fr8mech : I would agree. I can't imagine what it would be like to kill my child. But, then again, I can't imagine why my son would be coming out of someone els
28 seb146 : There are people (on this board, for example) who buy rounds in bulk and use them for target practice. A waste, I think, but not the point. If you hav
29 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Thank you sir. I'll add that not only would I not mind more stringent checks on me and my weapons, I think it would be a very good idea. Measures to
30 thegreatRDU : Gun violence is an everyday thing here in America... But I truly believe were not getting the full story and the police seemed like they came to a con
31 Revelation : There's always more to the story, but not sure how it'd justify what happened. I've googled the victim's name, and based on my reading of several dif
32 Ken777 : That, sadly, is an American tradition. I first encountered it when I was in the 5th grade - a kid in my class lost his 13 year old brother in an acci
33 Post contains links Dreadnought : It's not as if intruders call and make an appointment, so that you are sure to be in a securable area of the house when they come. If their house is
34 DeltaMD90 : Uh this case is probably the WORST example to use to restrict guns. "The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the n
35 ALTF4 : I've seen some non sequiturs on here, but that one really did leave me scratching my head.
36 Ken777 : Go to some inner city hospitals in large US cities and you'll come away thinking we are.
37 Revelation : I think it's quite the opposite. Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification i
38 DeltaMD90 : I guess we'll have to disagree. It's not like those situations where some person (idiot) sees a dark figure in the kitchen in the middle of the night
39 KingairTA : I have a variety of fire arms from single shot bolt action to a semi auto AR15. What do I need an AR15 for? Because I like making holes in paper. I li
40 flyguy89 : We need more education about guns and the responsibility of gun use for than anything else. Switzerland has more lax gun laws than the US yet nowhere
41 Revelation : We're really not sure what happened. All we have is one side of a story, from a person who had every motivation to put himself in the best possible l
42 DeltaMD90 : Well true. Assuming his story is true, I view it about the same as a guy that points a fake gun at a cop and gets shot and killed. Maybe the cop wasn
43 KiwiRob : Probably a pretty good chance he was a member of a.net.
44 flyingturtle : No, buying and owning guns is more difficult here. And crimes committed using a firearm are rare, thankfully. 1. Although servicemen (and -women) can
45 fr8mech : No we don't know what happened. But, absent any evidence to the contrary, we have to take the father at his word, don't we? Innocent until proven gui
46 flyguy89 : As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork. My point exactly.
47 Dreadnought : Say what? I hope this is a misunderstanding. I served in the Swiss army, and you took your rifle home with you, fully functional, and with 100 rounds
48 Post contains links flyingturtle : When purchasing weapons, the conditions are comparable, but you need a permit for concealed carry in most states, and it is subject to certain condit
49 flymia : If a love one, especially a female loved one told me a man with a knife was in the home or approaching their home and I was able to respond with a fi
50 Post contains links flyingturtle : You've read it correctly. This is a change introduced in 2007. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials..._home_but_not_ammo.html?cid=970614 And when the
51 flyguy89 : I honestly have no objection to carrying concealed weapons. I my opinion that's not where the issue is. Not necessarily, there are numerous examples
52 Revelation : In terms of criminal law, yes. If the kid wasn't a kid and had dependents, one could see a civil suit filed, kind of like how OJ was not convicted in
53 JJJ : Not to mention ammo purchase. Needs a separate permit and is severely restricted (are you going to shoot 50 rounds today? 50 rounds is all we'll let
54 AirframeAS : Incorrect. You don't need a permit to buy a firearm here in the U.S.
55 Maverick623 : Pretty much the worst thing to say to a potential intruder, especially one who appears to be brandishing a weapon. If it were a real piece of work wh
56 DeltaMD90 : It varies state to state. Strange... so what is the point of taking home the rifle? I would do the same but I'd also go in. There are some sick peopl
57 AirframeAS : Really? Source? I've bought firearms in WA (when I was a resident) and also in CO, where I am residing now, and I have never been told that I needed
58 Post contains links DeltaMD90 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state) No, see above. Not many states require it, and I think they're only for handguns
59 AirframeAS : You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.
60 BMI727 : ...a wiki with links directly to the laws in question. Sources don't get much more real than that. Click away.
61 AirframeAS : If he cannot back up his claim with a valid source, then the claim is moot per forum rules. I would like to see an actual source, not one from Wiki.
62 Post contains links DeltaMD90 : Sigh... you do know that there are like 100 links to the actual state sites from this page? For example, got this link from the wikipedia page: http:
63 BMI727 : The most actual sources you could ask for are right there. You want real? Start going through the legalese that's all there in black and white with l
64 DeltaMD90 : It's fine, it's kinda lazy on his part (and mine, I only posted one state) but at least I got a good source posted. I will say that most states don't
65 Post contains links and images fr8mech : Depends on your locality. NYC, for instance, requires a permit for handguns and long guns. Illinois requires a FOID (a permit by any other name) for
66 flymia : Click the sources. It is a good and correct resource. I think you are right and I think the logic behind it is that you can easily conceal a handgun.
67 DeltaMD90 : Yeah there would be rage no doubt. I'm not sure schools are the best place to do it, but promoting the Boy Scouts (I think they teach firearm safety)
68 Post contains links fr8mech : Wow, my post formatted completely wrong and any attempt to fix it made it worse. Here's the link to the NRA site in case anyone has a problem with it
69 Post contains images flymia : I think that is a great idea. You messed up the the alignment of the whole page
70 seb146 : There might just be programs for responsible firearm safety in every community. Not just for youth. I know they were offered where I grew up, since a
71 AirframeAS : Thank you. That's exactly what I'm looking for!
72 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : You can still shoot privately with your army-issued, selective-fire SIG 550 assault rifle. You can buy the custom 5.6mm cartridges at the shooting ra
73 Revelation : As I read the story, she was inside a locked house and calling saying that there was a burglar trying to break in. The father was going over to inves
74 fr8mech : I'm sure he wants to take it back. I'm sure he feels absolutely terrible...and responsible. These tend to be normal reactions when a law-abiding pers
75 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Well, because it's just fun! I'm asked all the time why I own several high caliber firearms, just find it fun. Just like we all enjoy aviation and ot
76 Post contains images flyingturtle : Well, in the rifle club, the only shooting you do is 300 meters, single shots, and 3-shot bursts. About the latter I'm not sure. I'll ask a colleague
77 DeltaMD90 : Ah, well target shooting was never my favorite. I like shooting/blowing up wooden blocks and other such random things. One of my favorite things is t
78 Post contains links fr8mech : According to the New Fairfield Police site there are 6 troopers assigned to New Fairfield, in addition to a sergeant, with a minimum of 2 troopers on
79 Post contains images flyingturtle : Well, in rural regions traffic signs sometimes have bullet holes from hunting rifles. I'd love to hunt my own food, but here, there is next to no hun
80 DeltaMD90 : Actually, I say this because I forget that many states require classes. GA just needed my fingerprints and $75. I think that the right to bear arms i
81 Revelation : Knowing the law is really just the tip of the iceberg.
82 fr8mech : Yes, that's why I strongly advocate training, practice, more training, additional practice and recurrent training and practice. Expensive, but, in my
83 par13del : Most folks have no issue with the above, the problem is with the excess baggage, different states and municipalities need to add other things which j
84 fr8mech : So long as the requirements do not present an unreasonable burden or become political fodder, I have no problem with requiring safety and knowledge c
85 flyingturtle : Somebody who really cares about his own safety (otherwise he would not have bought a $600-900 gun for self-defense) would not mind regular training o
86 Maverick623 : Ok.... so, exactly where was she going to barricade herself? And by all accounts, this guy did not fit that profile. Um, yea... rural. It may not be
87 TheCommodore : Your bang on. You cant rely on civilians responsibility using guns in panicked situations, as this sorry episode clearly shows. Even more reason why
88 DeltaMD90 : You know what I just thought of (maybe a little late,) there's a very good chance that the masked son could have lunged at the police officer and I gu
89 Maverick623 : Yep. Guy defends himself against a masked attacker with a weapon, but that's somehow the wrong move. What do you think the police would do in that si
90 falstaff : A few months ago a son beat his father to death with a baseball bat, here in metro Detroit. He Beat his mother and brother to near death and neither
91 flymia : Exactly. No doubt a police officer would shot the kid just like the father did. If the kid lunged at the cop the outcome would have been exactly the
92 TheCommodore : What they the police are supposed to do, (at least here in OZ) defuse the situation, before it escalated into this tragedy. And your right, but not v
93 Post contains links fr8mech : Actually, I believe he acted entirely correctly. An armed, masked assailant came at him. He defended himself and his sister. What too many people fai
94 DeltaMD90 : I guarantee you if this kid lunged at an Australian policeman the kid would have been shot
95 Post contains links fr8mech : No, they don't walk away. If there is a situation that may become difficult...in the opinion of the dispatcher, the responding officer or the supervi
96 TheCommodore : Who's saying different. If this boy was doing it as a "joke", which at this point in time, has NOT been determined, is not out of the question (as be
97 DeltaMD90 : Uh if he's willing to scare the **** out of his dad (who is armed) and lunge at him as an unknown person threateningly I don't think the big bad poli
98 AirframeAS : And to add, if the closest cop is 20 miles away, you would have no choice but to defend yourself and others. You don't have the luxury of 20 minutes
99 DeltaMD90 : And don't get me wrong, with the big responsibility I think people should have comes (or should come with) training and proficiency. Too many uneducat
100 AirframeAS : That's absolutely true. This is one of the things the NRA is trying to get changed, I believe. They strongly advocate safety training as if there is
101 TheCommodore : DeltaMD90, Did the father identify to the youth that he was armed, the article dose not say ? From what I read in the article, the father "believing
102 3DoorsDown : Sadly it may be a requirement to have a driver's license, but its a fact you don't need one to drive. Nor in states where they give licenses to anyon
103 AirframeAS : Pretty much everywhere. Agreed but it still happened. And it will happen again. We can keep analyzing this one case over and over and over, the end r
104 TheCommodore : Without being rude, so what ? Should I be ashamed to have a different opinion as to yours, about having to own a gun for self-defense ? Not on your l
105 flyingturtle : It can happen, and the husband does not have to prove his innocence. How would you prove his guilt anyway? David
106 Revelation : In the house, right? What accounts are you referring to? We know he is a full-time teacher and that he has a background in security. That could be an
107 fr8mech : Yes, if it's my family or friends who may be injured, it is my worry. If it's an innocent bystander, and I could have done something, it's my worry.
108 Post contains images AirframeAS : Not when the cops are 20 miles away. You're on your own on that. You need to understand that. Translation: Just stand there, let the suspect attack t
109 imiakhtar : My cousins live in Farminton and they knew the kids. I'm not a firearms expert, but in a self-defence home invasion scenario, wouldn't a shotgun make
110 cmf : Coming from an extreme pro-gun activist, twisting and turning and most of all ignoring facts. This is a perfect example of why the US gun mentality d
111 falstaff : I will never allow an intruder to chase me from my home. I own my home and no criminal is going to get me to leave. Why should anyone let criminals p
112 KingairTA : Also shot guns don't go through walls very well either.
113 AirframeAS : That's also true. They also do a hell of a lot more damage to a human bring at close range than a 9mm would.
114 fr8mech : You can also buy a wide variety of less than lethal rounds for a shotgun. The first 2 in mine are LTL.
115 Post contains images cmf : Because it is much better to be killed. Because they will shoot at everyone getting close to their house in the middle of the night. Fortunately you
116 Revelation : All we know is what the father himself is saying about the encounter outside. I presume the police have been told more details but at this point they
117 DeltaMD90 : I think getting lunged at with a knife is a little late for warning someone you are armed. But you bring up a good point, all the facts aren't out, I
118 cmf : That is part of the problem, we never know what the outcome would be by changing something. Goes for this case, and all other cases. We can speculate
119 DeltaMD90 : I don't know but you better believe if it was my sister I wouldn't hope the light would scare the burglar away
120 Post contains images TheCommodore : Isn't this just convenient to say that, the cops are always 20 miles away according to you. No wonder you all have to be armed Who said the guy was g
121 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I think we are going around in circles, but I think this comment is somewhat baseless. We don't know if he just went in guns blazing That's really al
122 TheCommodore : Absolutely you do. But I'm not the one telling people otherwise.
123 Post contains images Maverick623 : I love how you assume every single situation can be defused, and that the police are perfect in defusing them. When a cop sees someone prowling outsi
124 AirframeAS : I never said that they were always were 20 miles away. Stop putting words in my mouth. He was approached by a person with a weapon. You said it yours
125 TheCommodore : You've mentioned 20 miles in several previous posts in this thread, once here... And the other here.... Your only capable of doing that yourself. Yes
126 cmf : Where have I suggested you should not be allowed to own guns? The one above for example. Most of your reply 2. Sadly this is a good example of the me
127 Post contains images AirframeAS : Read it again....I never said that they were always 20 miles away, genius. Quit twisting my words. You added "always". No, you didn't. Still waiting
128 something : What a long thread. I can't read all of it, so I apologize should answers to my questions have already been given. 1. Is it legal under US law, or rat
129 Post contains images TheCommodore : You said it twice, in two different conversations within this thread. To me, the way I read it, you mentioned 20 miles twice, therefor in those two c
130 Revelation : Yes. However we don't know if this is what happened in this situation. All we've heard about is the alleged knife lunge. We don't know if the kid was
131 AirframeAS : No, it doesn't. And that's your problem, not mine. I never said that they're "always" 20 miles away. I said they could be 20 miles away. Two complete
132 fr8mech : I'm on the wife's iPad, and I'm having trouble with cut and paste. You made comment that crime in general is in the rise in the US. The FBI begs to d
133 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Ah, I get you know, this actually makes a lot of sense. I do agree it is better to hide when possible rather than confront. I can't really agree in t
134 something : They can be 200 miles away. Burglars are thiefs, and not murderers. If a burglar/criminal wanted to kill you, then they would probably succeed becaus
135 DeltaMD90 : Maybe in the UK. We just had a case a couple weeks ago in my home town where these guys broke into a house to steal things, was discovered, and as th
136 Post contains images cmf : Is there? From what I have seen firearm ownership has no measurable influence on crime. With one case anything can be proven Realistically, what do y
137 something : I've just never heard of anyone getting shot by a burglar before. That would defy the logic of breaking into a house. You do this because it's dark,
138 starbuk7 : Interesting, so we know what is in the mind of every burglar and thief!! My question is how do you know they are a burglar or thief and not a rapist
139 fr8mech : The anecdotal evidence is that while gun ownership and carry permits have been going up across the country for the passed 15 or so years, violent cri
140 Post contains images something : It's not ''interesting '', it's established science. My answer is that those situations don't exist. Murderers know their victims (why else would the
141 cmf : No, the anecdotal evidence is that many other events is the cause. Much different drug use mentality, social programs for kids and unemployed, better
142 something : This is just not what such a situation would look like. I would avoid even seeing those criminals. I would not confront them. What if there's three o
143 Maverick623 : You want to talk about twisting and turning of facts? The father did not turn the burglary (if that indeed is what it was going to be) into a killing
144 cmf : There you go with your twisting and turning. The father most certainly made this into a killing. As things stand it is very likely it will hold up as
145 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I don't care. If my sister was had a 90% chance of surviving just fine and I had a 90% chance of getting blown away I'd still be there in a heartbeat
146 Maverick623 : Yet you continually suggest that nobody was ever in danger of anything until the father showed up. The fact is, it doesn't matter what the kid was up
147 cmf : Passion in a situation requiring brains. A recipe for disaster. A good example why we should not allow loaded guns easily available at all times. Mor
148 Revelation : Seems your measure is justification, but being justified and having a satisfactory outcome are two different things. There's a lot of things myself a
149 starbuk7 : So, you have proof of any of this BS?? You can not tell me these situations do not exist without proof. Not all murderers know their victims. Not all
150 fr8mech : "My answer is that those situations don't exist. Murderers know their victims (why else would they want to murder them). They'd know if their potenti
151 SA7700 : This topic has been discussed ad nauseum with never a positive outcome being reached. Given the fact that this thread is none other than any of the pr
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