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Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work  
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son
Reuters

Another sad example of how the armed self defense mentality cause more sorrow than good. With the many cases too similar to this and the many, many accidental shootings what does it take for the pro gun lobby to accept things must change? That the current "self-defense" mentality is killing and injuring far more people than it is worth. That the loose rules are supplying legally purchased weapons for illegal use.

How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible? For the mostly responsible gun owners to accept that the loose rules they advocate carry large responsability in what is happening.

151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

If you are wandering around in the dark with a ski mask on, most likely you are not innocent. You can't fix stupid. However, I think there is more to this story than is being told. But for now, we know what we know.

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

LOL.

You take a story that is so incredibly vague as to what exactly happened, and use it as a justification for yet another anti-gun thread? And then put in a non-sequitor about "legal" guns being "illegally used"?

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot

Who said the kid was innocent of anything? From the article:

Quote:
"(He) was lying on the ground in the driveway with obvious gunshot injuries, holding a weapon," the statement said.

Believe it or not, sons and nephews are capable of doing horrific things to family members.


No, this thread is another example of the extreme nature of anti-gun activists, making up stuff about an incident to suit their agenda. Next time, try to stick to the facts.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4460 times:

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-28 21:41:02]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4451 times:

There are tens of thousands of responsible gun owners in the country. Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

This is a horrible tragedy. No question. However, there are people in places like Montana, Wyoming, California and all the states who own guns and own them for their own good reasons. Just like fishing rods. Many injuries are caused by fishing rods each year. We need to ban fishing rods. Now! They are evil! No more fishing rods because of all the injuries, right?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4445 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29705 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

I bet this dad is kicking himself harder than anybody else here can. I don't think we need to pile on him. Either he shot his son in mistake or his done made a mistake. He is going to have a heavy burden to bear, one that would break a lot of people.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):

   - We agree on something  

I'm ok to have tighter gun controls (say, for a concealed carry permit, you must have 15+ hrs of training or something), but I believe our constitution ensures us the right to own guns to keep for ourselves in our house for defense with little to no intrusion.

The flip side of the argument, cmf, is what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 7):
what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.

This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect? Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2655 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4424 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

So the kid runs into a house, the guy's sister calls her brother freaking out, the guy comes in, and shoots the intruder. It's beyond unfortunate that he shot his kid. I couldn't imagine how he felt when he realized who it is. But the problem is he came in with a ski mask on. This kid should have thought before he did it. It's unfortunate it came to that. But this isn't because a lack of gun control laws. If the gun is registered the guy did nothing illegal. The father was protecting his sister against someone he thought was trying to hurt her. If anybody tried to harm my sister I can assure you there would be a similar result.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7955 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe. It's a bit over the top to claim that there is no outrage about the endless scourge of violent crime in the United States - there is most certainly outrage, but as this problem has continued unabated to one extent or another since the Prohibition era (and arguably far longer even than that), most people are conditioned to the reality that this is part of our daily lives to some extent. Does that mean people should just accept it and not take steps to avoid being victimized?

The structural and cultural changes needed to eliminate serious crime in the US require decades of careful thought and execution and are not a reality any time soon, for anyone. Based on that alone, I would say people can and should protect themselves if they feel it's necessary.

One of the most interesting things about having been an expat for so long in a society with almost zero violent crime is the fact that the moment I am back on US soil, I suddenly become acutely aware of potentially threatening people everywhere I go. This was never the case when I lived in the US before - and is a prime example of the conditioning I mention above.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9413 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4406 times:
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Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible?

Say what now? How about:

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drunk driving for car owners, as a group, to become responsible?

or

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

etc....

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect?

Not horrible to say at all, and quite true (though it seems we don't know what exactly the son was holding).



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.
..
But your point about drunk driving IS very persuasive. You could say in some sense all drivers ARE held financially responsible because we all participate in shared risk, called insurance premiums, whether we ever drunk drive or not. But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

Pu


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9413 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4351 times:
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Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.

Ha, wow, reading over my post and remembering my frame of thought when I wrote it, I clearly lost the point with the 2nd example. So you're correct, not persuasive.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But we wouldn't take away every driver's license.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
But we wouldn't take away every driver's license

Ok.
But cars do in fact require licenses to use.
Guns don't.
And I actually don't think the non-gun-loving liberals really give a damn if everyone in rural America has a gun, hunts with it or just shoots targets for fun.
.
The real problem is in the cities where all the gun violence occurs. So you have all the liberals in the cities who hate guns anyway, being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended by law abiding suburbanites and rural folks, who have very little if any gun violence around. Thats why Chicago banned guns, and Chicagoans were happy about it.
.
Just my observation.

Pu


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?

I'm tired of these gun threads and wasn't going to respond, but surprisingly we agreed on most your points!  Wow!

I only disagree on this point ^^ what I expect when I get thousands of rounds is cheaper rounds. When I bought rounds for my Mosin-Nagant and rounds for my SKS, the former rounds aren't even sold in most stores and the latter are but for a much higher price than online bulk. I ordered a crate of ammo each, giving me about 2000 rounds each, but that doesn't mean I have all these rounds lying around and I'm dying to use them up on my roommate if he comes home later than I expect. These crates have (CHEAPLY) lasted a couple years so far. In the long run it'll save me hundreds of dollars.

While I don't deny there are the 'militia' folk out there that have a bunch of rounds ready for when the "guvment" comes and does whatever they think the evil government is gonna do, just ask normal gun owners who order thousands of rounds at a time why they do it. I'd bet $5 almost all would say either "cheaper in bulk" or "don't feel like constantly ordering more rounds" (because contrary to popular belief on this site, a gun owner and several of his friends can easily go through a few thousand rounds in a couple hours without being a terrorist)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 14):
being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended


Criminals do not have the right to own guns. Here is the problem. I believe that we should have some stricter gun control laws but I also believe law abiding citizens who pass stricter background test, safety test, shooting test etc.. should be allowed to carry a gun on them concealed. The real problem is criminals do not care about the law. It is already illegal for them to have a gun but they do not care. And no matter what the laws are they will find guns. As long as it is easy for criminals to get guns we should allow good citizens to protect themselves.

We need to work hard on taking the guns away from the criminals. Maybe if we spent more money on guns and less on non-harmful drugs like marijuana we could get something done.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son

Sounds like a Darwin Award to me.

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work 

You could look at it as an example of how it DOES work. It deleted a particularly stupid element from the gene pool, thus improving it. If we get rid of most/all safety regulations maybe after a few generations there won't be any morons left.

Just a thought 



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4167 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
You can't fix stupid.

You can't fix dead either.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
However, I think there is more to this story than is being told.

Like if the father had the sense to say "Stop or I'll Shoot" first...

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

I've heard it said many times that one the most painful things ever is to deal with the death of a child.

Can you imagine if it was you who killed your own son?

Nah, don't worry about that, just shoot first and ask questions later.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I only disagree on this point

I guess, having grown up in hunting country, I don't understand the point of buying semi-automatic or automatic weapons and buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week. It seems like a waste to me. Plus, I don't see any good reason why people need semi- or automatic weapons. A collecter can have a pass. I guess an older hunter who can't aim as well anymore. But, someone living in the middle of a huge city? Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4143 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?

People don't "need" semi- or automatic weapons. I don't feel like going down this road again. Maybe shooting is your cup of tea but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7348 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4139 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer,

I see it is unlikely that you have ever taken a water safety course or been a lifeguard.

Drowning swimmers are incredibly dangerous to rescuers. They instinctively want to climb on top of the rescuer to hold themselves higher in the water. Which of course pushes the rescuer deep underwater.

Probably half or more of the people trying to help drowning swimmers are actually killed by the person they are trying to rescue if the rescuer does not have proper training.

When trying to help someone in distress in the water, approach from behind them, keep them in a position where their hand cannot grab you, and if they do, dive deep to make them release you. It is often much safer to let them pass out and then bring them to a location where they can be revived.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe.

You are correct, but there are far fewer such robberies in the US than many people think.

The odds are significantly higher that a 'home invasion' is going to be someone you know - as in this case - than an actual stranger.

Even with the home invasion possibility - keeping a gun in your home increases the likelyhood of a death or injury due to gunshot from an accident, or angry relative.

Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety - unless you live in certain neighborhoods with very high crime occurences.

Yes, I have a gun in my home. Because I got it for Christmas when I was 10. I haven't hunted in over 40 years. All of my family have guns, except for the brother who lives in Houston.

One brother who lives on a rural farm in Arkansas has had his home broken into and guns stolen once, they were unable to get into his gun safe the second time.

They never pinned down who did the break-ins - but are 100% certain it was someone he knows who had been invited into the home at least once in the past.

Stranger on Stranger crime in the US is actually a very low percentage of our shootings.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

And unfortunately both have been legitimately criticized for the way they write up the incidents. They try to avoid mentioning the previous links between the victim and criminal. A great many of the 'self defense' incidents involve other members of the defender's family or his/her acquaintances.

[Edited 2012-09-29 09:45:34]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4129 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Chances are still higher that you'll shoot an innocent relative, a friend or a neighbor than a criminal. Your mind is primed to defend yourself, not to make sure who you are shooting at.

Such tragedies will happen with or without the killed wearing a ski mask.

The scenario I have much trouble with:

Your wife leaves the bed at 2 AM because she has to visit the toilet, or she has trouble sleeping, and so she is bustling around in the apartment with the room lights switched off in order not to disturb your sleep. You're waking up, hearing the noises, but not realizing that your wife isn't in your bed anymore... and you approach her with a drawn handgun.

Upon seeing you ready to shoot, I don't think she'll see you as her husband either. The words "Hi, it's just me!" are out of her mind.

Bang, bang.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4115 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

That's a sad turn of events and one I don't ever want to be a part of. And as such, I neither walk around wearing a ski mask in the wee hours nor do I own a gun. Problem solved.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

Maybe it worked out exactly the way it should have. Maybe the good guy did win and the son was out for trouble and would have done violence to the aunt and/or father. We don't and probably won't know.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety

We'll disagree here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk

Of course he does because he went from:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time

to:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week

That does change the discussion a little bit.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
A collecter can have a pass

Why is a collector any more special than me? Hell, I can just as easily call myself a collector. I have a collection of firearms.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
A collecter can have a pass

Why is a collector any more special than me? Hell, I can just as easily call myself a collector. I have a collection of firearms.

I was gonna argue that (since I have an interest in antique Soviet firearms) but you have to take babysteps with him. He obviously enjoys (or at least experienced) hunting so he can see why people enjoy that, so maybe he can figure people enjoy target shooting and the like. But I've explained that before so I just stuck with the "buying stuff in bulk" argument because that's something at least everyone understands (I think)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Maybe it worked out exactly the way it should have. Maybe the good guy did win and the son was out for trouble and would have done violence to the aunt and/or father. We don't and probably won't know.

Right, the son is too dead to tell us what he was thinking, so the father will just have to wonder what was on the son's mind for the rest of his life.

Personally, I'm thinking the father wished he didn't kill his own son, and chances are pretty good that some better way of dealing with the son's problems other than shooting him dead was possible, but feel free to think otherwise.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Personally, I'm thinking the father wished he didn't kill his own son,

I would agree. I can't imagine what it would be like to kill my child. But, then again, I can't imagine why my son would be coming out of someone else's home, wearing a ski mask, holding a weapon and failing to stop what he was doing the instant he saw me, especially knowing that there would be a high probability that I was armed.

Methinks there is much more to this story.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

There are people (on this board, for example) who buy rounds in bulk and use them for target practice. A waste, I think, but not the point. If you have that much free time and money, fine.

However, the people I have a problem with are the ones who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them. Yet. Just like those who have caches of weapons. There are those who collect them and show them off as "Look what I got!" And then there are those who have caches of weapons because the gub'mint is gonna storm through the land taking the guns! Those are the same people who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them.

An analogy from my life it: I collect shot glasses. Yet, I don't drink hard liquor. Tequila in a margarita sometimes, but that's about it. Should it be a huge red flag to MADD and AA and the like that I have 100+ shot glasses? Or, would it be a huge red flag for the person who goes to the liquor store three or four times a day?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
However, the people I have a problem with are the ones who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them. Yet. Just like those who have caches of weapons. There are those who collect them and show them off as "Look what I got!" And then there are those who have caches of weapons because the gub'mint is gonna storm through the land taking the guns! Those are the same people who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them.

   Thank you sir.

I'll add that not only would I not mind more stringent checks on me and my weapons, I think it would be a very good idea. Measures to allow good, law abiding citizens the freedom to do what they want but effective measures to keep them from unstable people. I think that is a stance most people can agree on



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Gun violence is an everyday thing here in America...
But I truly believe were not getting the full story and the police seemed like they came to a conclusion very quickly too

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Just like fishing rods. Many injuries are caused by fishing rods each year. We need to ban fishing rods. Now! They are evil! No more fishing rods because of all the injuries, right?

What the? This is way over the top and too simplistic



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Methinks there is much more to this story.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 30):
But I truly believe were not getting the full story

There's always more to the story, but not sure how it'd justify what happened.

I've googled the victim's name, and based on my reading of several different articles, I have found:

> It was 1AM and outdoors so it was dark
> The kid was wearing dark clothes, had on a dark ski mask, and was carrying a knife
> The knife hasn't been been described
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife
> Nothing has been released to say if that was the extent of the outdoor confrontation
> The father didn't know it was his son till the police took off the kid's mask
> Nothing has been released to say if the police were called before the killing
> A friend says the son was online playing video games till 10PM and was acting normally
> It is said that the son had a previous argument with the aunt
> The town where this happened, New Fairfield CT, is affluent
> Pictures of the location where this occurred show it is an affluent area
> A town resident had recently walked in on a burglar so tensions were elevated
> The son was adopted by the father
> The father is a very popular teacher in town
> The father had previously been the son's teacher before adopting him
> The son's natural mother is a drug addict and has a criminal past
> The natural mother had a car accident while on crack which killed her daughter
> The son was raised by his natural grandparents before being adopted
> The son loved aviation, was a member of the Civil Air Patrol and wanted to join the Air Force
> There is no indication the son had a criminal past or was a troublemaker
> His fellow students are describing him as a normal, likeable kid
> The father had a background in security
> It is not known yet if the gun was legally registered

Clearly some here are of the "shoot first, ask questions later" camp, but not me.

A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?

Clearly all we have is the version of events being told by the father, so we'll never know if things played out as he states.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners

That, sadly, is an American tradition.

I first encountered it when I was in the 5th grade - a kid in my class lost his 13 year old brother in an accident with an "unloaded gun".

It simply is part of how this country functions and our Second Amendment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
There are tens of thousands of responsible gun owners in the country.

No doubt about that. That, however, mean that they cannot have an accident.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

America has very different rules. I can't see many civilized countries where you see pick-up trucks with gun mounts on the back window. Or conservative politicians pushing for "open carry" laws where folks wear guns on their hips - just like cowboys in Old West.

As for guns used to get food - my bet is that more people are shot every year than deer.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?

It's not as if intruders call and make an appointment, so that you are sure to be in a securable area of the house when they come. If their house is anything like mine, the whole house is wide open, no place to hide except for the bedrooms (where I spend maybe 5-6 hours per day max). And even if you lock yourself in, ever take a look at typical US home construction? Interior doors are extremely easy to break open, (especially with a reverse kick)

And then you have the comparative response times. It can take 5-10 minutes for the cops to arrive, perhaps more.

Which reminds me of a story:

Quote:
George Phillips of Meridian, Mississippi was going up to bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window.

George opened the back door to go turn off the light but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.

He phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and he said "no". Then they said that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be along when available. George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again.

"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I've just shot them." Then he hung up.

Within five minutes three police cars, an Armed Response Unit, and an ambulance showed up at the Phillips' residence and caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the Policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
http://www.snopes.com/crime/safety/response.asp

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
As for guns used to get food - my bet is that more people are shot every year than deer.

We would be in a war zone. White-tailed deer account 6 million of the 200 million animals killed yearly by hunters, 50 million morning doves. Then you have all the other types of deer, ducks, geese etc.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
> It was 1AM and outdoors so it was dark
> The kid was wearing dark clothes, had on a dark ski mask, and was carrying a knife
> The knife hasn't been been described
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife

Uh this case is probably the WORST example to use to restrict guns.

"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??

I've seen some non sequiturs on here, but that one really did leave me scratching my head.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
We would be in a war zone.

Go to some inner city hospitals in large US cities and you'll come away thinking we are.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Uh this case is probably the WORST example to use to restrict guns.

"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??

I think it's quite the opposite. Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification in the world to blast away, yet he's proven wrong.

As above, you can't fix dead.

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:18:00]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):

I guess we'll have to disagree. It's not like those situations where some person (idiot) sees a dark figure in the kitchen in the middle of the night, shoots it without confirming anything, and it turns out to be his/her son sneaking out. This guy had a masked figure come at him with a knife in the middle of the night! How do we even know if the son wasn't going kill the father with a knife anyway? I mean he was already being shady, breaking into a house with a knife, who knows that this kid's intentions were. You don't really have time to think about that when you're getting lunged at with a knife...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

I have a variety of fire arms from single shot bolt action to a semi auto AR15. What do I need an AR15 for? Because I like making holes in paper. I like hearing bullets go ping as they dance off of a steel target. What does it matter why I want one. The law says I can own one so I do. It is no different then buying a high performance race bike to ride to work when a moped would do the same. As for buying ammo in bulk. Well yesterday at the range my family shot over 400 rounds between two guns. And we would have shot more had we brought more ammo. We go through 400-500 rounds a weekend. Buying in bulk helps my pocket book not just cheaper by the round but cheaper on fuel from having to go to the store to get ammo everytime I want to shoot.

People don't need to understand why I want. Just respect the fact that what I do I do inside the law and don't let the criminals ruin it for me. Just because the law says you can't have a certain weapon doesn't mean Jack squat to the criminal.

Chicago and DC have strick gun laws yet there continues to be gun violence. Seams like those laws work real well.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

We need more education about guns and the responsibility of gun use for than anything else.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

America has very different rules. I can't see many civilized countries where you see pick-up trucks with gun mounts on the back window.

Switzerland has more lax gun laws than the US yet nowhere near the gun problems, again, education is the problem, not guns.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
This guy had a masked figure come at him with a knife in the middle of the night!

We're really not sure what happened. All we have is one side of a story, from a person who had every motivation to put himself in the best possible light, and no one to challenge his version of events. We do know the father put himself into the middle of this situation. It is being said the father had a background in security, but that's all we know so far.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
How do we even know if the son wasn't going kill the father with a knife anyway?

We don't know if the son intended to kill the father or the aunt, or if we was just out to scare them, and I doubt we ever will, unless we find out the kid left a note or something.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We're really not sure what happened.

Well true. Assuming his story is true, I view it about the same as a guy that points a fake gun at a cop and gets shot and killed. Maybe the cop wasn't actually in danger but he was justified to shoot. I can't fault the guy for shooting his son even if the son wasn't going to harm anyone because the only information the father had was "holy crap a guy with a knife lunging at me BAM"

If we said this guy didn't have a gun, well just put him in a scenario where the masked person isn't the son and really does want to kill the father--dead. There are plenty of cases that makes gun-ownership look bad, I just don't think this is one of them, as sadly as this turned out



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6693 posts, RR: 3
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
The son loved aviation, was a member of the Civil Air Patrol and wanted to join the Air Force

Probably a pretty good chance he was a member of a.net.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3617 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
Switzerland has more lax gun laws than the US yet nowhere near the gun problems, again, education is the problem, not guns.

No, buying and owning guns is more difficult here. And crimes committed using a firearm are rare, thankfully.

1. Although servicemen (and -women) can take their assault rifles home, they have to hand in the pocket ammunition and the breech.

2. The laws on carrying guns are very strict. It is difficult to legally carry your gun outside of your apartment - you need a permit, and in order to get one, you need training and a reason to carry a gun. You'll probably get one if you work for a security firm.

3. For every weapons purchase, you need a permit, though you only have to be at least 18 years old and have a clean criminal record.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We're really not sure what happened.

No we don't know what happened. But, absent any evidence to the contrary, we have to take the father at his word, don't we? Innocent until proven guilty...and all that stuff. The killing should be thoroughly investigated and the father prosecuted, if warranted by the investigation. But, the father should not be persecuted because he happened to kill his son.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We don't know if the son intended to kill the father or the aunt, or if we was just out to scare them, and I doubt we ever will, unless we find out the kid left a note or something.

And, getting shot is a risk that you take when you brandish a weapon in an attempt scare someone.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
2. The laws on carrying guns are very strict.

As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
And crimes committed using a firearm are rare, thankfully.

My point exactly. Perhaps saying they're more lax was disingenuous, but gun laws in Switzerland in the US are VERY comparable and you all have nowhere near the gun issues. IMO it comes down to education, public education or education in general in Switzerland far outclasses the US by a large degree, so I believe the problem here in the US isn't that we let our citizens own guns, but that we have a bunch of uneducated or unstable people with guns. It's important to keep in mind however that no amount of gun restrictions will deter some one with truly murderous intentions, I think Anders Breivik proved that.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
1. Although servicemen (and -women) can take their assault rifles home, they have to hand in the pocket ammunition and the breech.

Say what? I hope this is a misunderstanding. I served in the Swiss army, and you took your rifle home with you, fully functional, and with 100 rounds of ammo in cans (they look like big cans of Spam) which were subject to inspection - you were only supposed to open them in case of mobilization.

Are you telling me that now they go home with a useless gun? Why even bother?

By the way, i recall one incident of a Swiss guy going postal and using his military rifle - in Zug if I recall about 10 years ago, where he shot up some politicians and then himself. I'm not really sure if shooting politicians should really be considered a crime, but had he lived he would have been in deep crap simply for use of military hardware for non-sanctioned use - never mind everything else.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork.

When purchasing weapons, the conditions are comparable, but you need a permit for concealed carry in most states, and it is subject to certain conditions:

"Typical permit requirements include residency, minimum age, submitting fingerprints, passing a computerized instant background check (or a more comprehensive manual background check), attending a certified handgun/firearm safety class, passing a practical qualification demonstrating handgun proficiency, and paying a required fee. These requirements vary widely by jurisdiction, with some having few or none of these and others having most or all."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceal...y_in_the_United_States#Shall-Issue

If these are the average conditions for a CCW permit in the U.S., the conditions are much more conservative here in Switzerland. To carry a weapon openly or in a concealed manner, you need to demonstrate a reason to do so. Do you need to work in a security firm in order to get a carry permit in the U.S.? Do you need to protect sensitive buildings, or do you need to be a bodyguard, in order to get a CCW license?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
but that we have a bunch of uneducated or unstable people with guns.

I think this is one part of the problem, the people having the guns in their hands. But you can tackle almost everything using different strategies, and you have to think which is the most effective one. People like Anders Breivik will always find a way around the laws, but every measure that keeps the number of guns low already helps IMHO. If you think people are uneducated or unstable, how can you amend this? Shell out some billions for better education, and subsidize psychological counseling for unstable persons?


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3551 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?


If a love one, especially a female loved one told me a man with a knife was in the home or approaching their home and I was able to respond with a firearm I am not waiting for the police. I would certainly call the police and not go into the situation trigger happy but no one is getting stab or let alone hurt if I can help it. Besides for the intruder.
Your wife, mother, sister calls that there is a man trying to get into their home with a weapon or even without a weapon you are going to tell them hide and wait 5 minutes for the police? That would be fine if you did not have something to protect yourself. Even then if would be hard to only call the police. Especially in rural areas where response time can be well over 5 minutes.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife


If this is true then its justified. A knife is a deadly weapon. Someone lunging at you with a knife is attempted murder. Why would the son do this is my question? Sadly we will never know. Mental illness is always possible.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
I think it's quite the opposite. Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification in the world to blast away, yet he's proven wrong.

As above, you can't fix dead.


No one should go into a situation like that thinking "my guns are finally paying off." That is where education on gun ownership needs to come in which I agree with many is no where near the level it needs to be in the United States. Whether we know if this man did this or not who knows. I doubt he did but its possible.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
Say what? I hope this is a misunderstanding. I served in the Swiss army, and you took your rifle home with you, fully functional, and with 100 rounds of ammo in cans (they look like big cans of Spam) which were subject to inspection - you were only supposed to open them in case of mobilization.

Are you telling me that now they go home with a useless gun? Why even bother?

You've read it correctly. This is a change introduced in 2007.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials..._home_but_not_ammo.html?cid=970614

And when the army recalled all the canned ammo, 20% was reported as "lost". I'm not sure if deposing the breech is mandatory now, but I believed it so - and can't find a source for that now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
By the way, i recall one incident of a Swiss guy going postal and using his military rifle - in Zug if I recall about 10 years ago, where he shot up some politicians and then himself. I'm not really sure if shooting politicians should really be considered a crime, but had he lived he would have been in deep crap simply for use of military hardware for non-sanctioned use - never mind everything else.

Yes, Fritz Leibacher. And I hope you were sarcastic about shooting politicians, because killing 14 people over bureaucratic fuss and complaints is not justifiable in any way. And then, military stuff is often stolen. The paper 20 Minuten once asked its readers to send in pictures of stolen weapons, and among them were quite a few fragmentation grenades...

In November 2007, a psychologically unstable recruite killed a female teenager that was waiting at a bus stop in Höngg near Zurich. The recruit was then sentenced to 17 years in prison.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
If these are the average conditions for a CCW permit in the U.S., the conditions are much more conservative here in Switzerland.

I honestly have no objection to carrying concealed weapons. I my opinion that's not where the issue is.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
but every measure that keeps the number of guns low already helps IMHO.

Not necessarily, there are numerous examples and studies to the contrary. Washington DC had a gun ban a few years back and it was among the most violent metro areas in the US, Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws of any US city and has among the highest, if not THE highest, crime rate of any US city. Additionally, in many countries in Europe for example, while gun violence may be much lower due to gun bans, violent crime is rampant. So I would disagree that actively trying to decrease gun ownership is the way to go.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
Shell out some billions for better education

Well that's an entirely separate issue, public education in the US is incredibly f*cked up right now. We're only second to Switzerland actually in the amount of money we spend per student, yet obviously we're lightyears behind in quality and get nowhere near the results of our counterparts in Switzerland.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
and subsidize psychological counseling for unstable persons?

No, but putting systems in place to ensure such persons don't have ready access to purchasing firearms would be one step to take.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
But, absent any evidence to the contrary, we have to take the father at his word, don't we? Innocent until proven guilty...and all that stuff.

In terms of criminal law, yes. If the kid wasn't a kid and had dependents, one could see a civil suit filed, kind of like how OJ was not convicted in a criminal court but did lose in civil court.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
The killing should be thoroughly investigated and the father prosecuted, if warranted by the investigation.

Indeed, there is much to investigate, and I'm perfectly OK with the father being found innocent. No matter what, he has to live with what happened.

Quoting flymia (Reply 49):
If a love one, especially a female loved one told me a man with a knife was in the home or approaching their home and I was able to respond with a firearm I am not waiting for the police. I would certainly call the police and not go into the situation trigger happy but no one is getting stab or let alone hurt if I can help it. Besides for the intruder.
Your wife, mother, sister calls that there is a man trying to get into their home with a weapon or even without a weapon you are going to tell them hide and wait 5 minutes for the police? That would be fine if you did not have something to protect yourself. Even then if would be hard to only call the police. Especially in rural areas where response time can be well over 5 minutes.

No one could say for sure what they'd do in a life threatening situation. Personally I don't have weapons, I don't have training, and I do live close enough to police, so I would tell a person of either gender who heard a prowler outside to barracade themselves while they waited for the police, and I hope that's what my neighbors would do as well.

As we've seen in these threads, some people just like guns. That's fine, but I also feel some (not necessarily the same people) justify guns by perceiving all kinds of things as major threats that demand a gun, and delude themselves into thinking they can make life vs death decisions just because they hvae a gun and a tiny bit of training.

As I've said in another thread, if I lived in an area where there was enough of a threat to my person to feel I needed a gun and the training to use one, I'd seriously consider moving. Life's to short for me to have to make life or death decisions based on my percieved level of threat.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1721 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
3. For every weapons purchase, you need a permit, though you only have to be at least 18 years old and have a clean criminal record.

Not to mention ammo purchase. Needs a separate permit and is severely restricted (are you going to shoot 50 rounds today? 50 rounds is all we'll let you buy).


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3498 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork.

Incorrect. You don't need a permit to buy a firearm here in the U.S.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Like if the father had the sense to say "Stop or I'll Shoot" first...

Pretty much the worst thing to say to a potential intruder, especially one who appears to be brandishing a weapon. If it were a real piece of work who didn't feel like running away, they'd be on you before you could finish the sentence.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):

Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

I've heard it said many times that one the most painful things ever is to deal with the death of a child.

Can you imagine if it was you who killed your own son?

Nah, don't worry about that, just shoot first and ask questions later.

Or, you can try to think of another way to handle it while your son stabs you to death.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Right, the son is too dead to tell us what he was thinking, so the father will just have to wonder what was on the son's mind for the rest of his life.

And let that be his cross to bear.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):


A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?

Barricade herself where, exactly?

Just because you seem to be incapable of rendering immediate, temporary assistance does not mean everyone else is incapable too.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
ever take a look at typical US home construction? Interior doors are extremely easy to break open, (especially with a reverse kick)

By law. Most building codes require that interior residential doors be easy to kick open, so firefighters can easily break them down to rescue someone.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
And then you have the comparative response times. It can take 5-10 minutes for the cops to arrive, perhaps more.

I used to live 2 miles from New Fairfield (across the state line in NY). 5 minutes would be a fairly quick response time, as the area is still rural.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification in the world to blast away, yet he's proven wrong.

Yep. No chance of him of thinking "I have to protect my sister". Just a gun nut who has wet dreams of blasting someone away.

And in case you missed it, he did have every justification in the world to "blast away". But it's pretty clear you think aggressive defensive actions in response to deadly threats is a sign of a nutjob.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):

We're really not sure what happened.

The only thing we're not currently sure about is the kid's motive for his actions. The police have already said they're not going to charge the father with anything, and the gun was legal and properly registered.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54):
Incorrect. You don't need a permit to buy a firearm here in the U.S.

It varies state to state.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 50):
You've read it correctly. This is a change introduced in 2007.

Strange... so what is the point of taking home the rifle?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
o I would tell a person of either gender who heard a prowler outside to barracade themselves while they waited for the police, and I hope that's what my neighbors would do as well.

I would do the same but I'd also go in. There are some sick people in the world, I couldn't live with myself if I just sat back, waited for the police, and let my loved ones get raped/tortured/mutilated etc. I'm a CJ major so I've seen some pretty crazy stuff.

Of course, on the flip side, I wouldn't just go in to a dark house, see something dark moving, and shoot it. Even if the person was armed (not with a gun) I'd try my best to not kill and just draw them down. I do agree that often in these cases people will shoot first and ask questions later.

But in this case, however (and assuming the story is correct) I really can't blame this guy. Maybe he was going to point the gun at the kid and force him to drop his knife. But he supposedly came at the father with the knife. Even if the father knew it was his son he'd be justified in shooting him. Acting shady and coming at him with a deadly weapon? That sounds like the burden of proof needed. Now would the father have shot, knowing it was the son, is up to him



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
It varies state to state.

Really? Source?

I've bought firearms in WA (when I was a resident) and also in CO, where I am residing now, and I have never been told that I needed a permit to buy a firearm. Even when I went to Cabela's in Sidney, NE and they never asked for one when I was looking at a .45ACP that I had my heart set on. But I couldn't buy it because I was out of State.

I think we are confusing CARRY permits, not a permit to buy. Bring a PROUD NRA member, I have never ever heard such a thing that an individual is required to get a permit prior to buying a firearm. It is silly to be required to obtain one, IMO.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
so what is the point of taking home the rifle?

Maybe for souvenir, hang it on the mantle piece and strike up a good convo about it, yes?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
It varies state to state.

Really? Source?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57):
I think we are confusing CARRY permits, not a permit to buy

No, see above. Not many states require it, and I think they're only for handguns

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57):
Maybe for souvenir, hang it on the mantle piece and strike up a good convo about it, yes?

I suppose, but I thought a big part of bringing the weapon home was for an invasion scenario (they used to have enough ammo to fight their way to the armory.) Come to think of it, that does sound a little paranoid these days lol



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)

You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 59):
You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.

...a wiki with links directly to the laws in question. Sources don't get much more real than that. Click away.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 60):

If he cannot back up his claim with a valid source, then the claim is moot per forum rules. I would like to see an actual source, not one from Wiki.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 59):
You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.

Sigh... you do know that there are like 100 links to the actual state sites from this page? For example, got this link from the wikipedia page: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...s%2BIdentification%2BCard%2BAct%2E

Edit: Wikipedia is a great tool with an ounce of research. Just humor me and look at that page, there are links to the state government pages all over the place on this page. Only fools trust wikipedia without looking at their sources

[Edited 2012-10-01 17:30:31]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 61):
If he cannot back up his claim with a valid source, then the claim is moot per forum rules. I would like to see an actual source, not one from Wiki.

The most actual sources you could ask for are right there. You want real? Start going through the legalese that's all there in black and white with links sorted by state.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 61):
If he cannot back up his claim with a valid source, then the claim is moot per forum rules. I would like to see an actual source, not one from Wiki.

The most actual sources you could ask for are right there. You want real? Start going through the legalese that's all there in black and white with links sorted by state.

It's fine, it's kinda lazy on his part (and mine, I only posted one state) but at least I got a good source posted. I will say that most states don't require permits to buy, and if my lazy scan of that page was correct, they were only for handguns. But firearm laws in the US are very state dependent (more so that federal government dependent.)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3404 times:


Being a proud Life Member, I'll use their site:

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws.aspx

align="CENTER" width="95%" class="quote">
My opinion is that firearms training places don't spend enough time on the "after you shoot" phase of a shooting. I've done a bit of reading on that subject.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54):
Incorrect. You don't need a permit to buy a firearm here in the U.S.

Depends on your locality. NYC, for instance, requires a permit for handguns and long guns. Illinois requires a FOID (a permit by any other name) for any firearm. There are others.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 59):
Show me a REAL source, please.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57):
Bring a PROUD NRA member,
Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
No matter what, he has to live with what happened.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
We need more education about guns and the responsibility of gun use for than anything else.

I asked this in another thread and nobody answered:
What would you do if the school sent home a note saying they were going to present an Eddie Eagle program in school? Can you hear the howls and screams? Even if an opt-out option (or opt-in) were presented, the school adminstrators' collective heads would roll. Yet, it's perfectly OK to provide sex-ed to kindergartners.  

[Edited 2012-10-01 18:07:15]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 59):
You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.


Click the sources. It is a good and correct resource.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
and I think they're only for handguns


I think you are right and I think the logic behind it is that you can easily conceal a handgun. A shotgun not so much.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
There are some sick people in the world, I couldn't live with myself if I just sat back, waited for the police, and let my loved ones get raped/tortured/mutilated etc. I'm a CJ major so I've seen some pretty crazy stuff.


Agreed. After spending some time at the State Attorney office down here and where I currently work I do not trust most strangers especially when it comes to my girlfriend or mother.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
Wikipedia is a great tool with an ounce of research. Just humor me and look at that page, there are links to the state government pages all over the place on this page. Only fools trust wikipedia without looking at their sources


100% correct. I would not use the page itself ever but when a page is heavily cited it is a fantastic tool. I found so many sources for a law article I am writing by doing some wiki searching. Sources which I did not even think about while searching databases and sources which would not come up there anyway.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 65):
What would you do if the school sent home a note saying they were going to present an Eddie Eagle program in school? Can you hear the howls and screams? Even if an opt-out option (or opt-in) were presented, the school adminstrators' collective heads would roll. Yet, it's perfectly OK to provide sex-ed to kindergartners.   

Yeah there would be rage no doubt. I'm not sure schools are the best place to do it, but promoting the Boy Scouts (I think they teach firearm safety) or a youth program to teach responsible firearm safety would be beneficial.

Not going to fight, argue, and compare the US to Switzerland, there are many differences, but I think Switzerland shows how teaching people to respect firearms helps them out a lot

Quoting flymia (Reply 66):
100% correct. I would not use the page itself ever but when a page is heavily cited it is a fantastic tool. I found so many sources for a law article I am writing by doing some wiki searching. Sources which I did not even think about while searching databases and sources which would not come up there anyway.

Definitely! I used Wikipedia's SOURCES (not the page itself) on numerous papers. It is a great resource and they've done a good job the past few years protecting it from spammers and source-less statements. I can put anything I want on there but it won't stick when I either don't put a source or when I cite joesrandomgunblog.com or something

[Edited 2012-10-01 17:58:11]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 65):

Wow, my post formatted completely wrong and any attempt to fix it made it worse.

Here's the link to the NRA site in case anyone has a problem with it:

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws.aspx

Here's the Eddie Eagle link.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
I'm not sure schools are the best place to do it, but promoting the Boy Scouts (I think they teach firearm safety) or a youth program to teach responsible firearm safety would be beneficial.

I think schools do need to provide some exposure, at some level. Like it or not, firearms are ubiquitous in our culture. We have to teach firearm safety.

The argument used for sex education is that parents won't teach it at home, for various reasons, and the kids have to know it. I use the same argument for firearm safety.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 65):
I asked this in another thread and nobody answered:
What would you do if the school sent home a note saying they were going to present an Eddie Eagle program in school? Can you hear the howls and screams? Even if an opt-out option (or opt-in) were presented, the school adminstrators' collective heads would roll. Yet, it's perfectly OK to provide sex-ed to kindergartners.


I think that is a great idea.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 68):
Wow, my post formatted completely wrong and any attempt to fix it made it worse.


You messed up the the alignment of the whole page 



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
youth program to teach responsible firearm safety would be beneficial.

There might just be programs for responsible firearm safety in every community. Not just for youth. I know they were offered where I grew up, since a majority of people hunted and owned guns.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Or conservative politicians pushing for "open carry" laws where folks wear guns on their hips - just like cowboys in Old West.

I live in the "Old West" and hate it when I see someone carrying a firearm in a holster. It really makes me uneasy. It makes me uneasy to be in parts of Oakland, too. But, at least in Oakland, I know what my chances are and I don't go there. I can't say that about people who openly carry. Will they be struck over the head and have their gun stolen? I don't know. I do know some kid in Oakland might be packing, even if I can't see it. I also know that, if some kid in Oakland is packing, I am less of a target because I am white and not flashing gang signs. I could still be hit in the cross fire, but I know I am not a direct target.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
I can't see many civilized countries where you see pick-up trucks with gun mounts on the back window.

I never liked them, but so what if they want to decorate their truck that way? None of my business.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
As for guns used to get food - my bet is that more people are shot every year than deer.

Not every murder by firearm is on the news. Mostly because some of those murders are inner city youths. Violence pays in the world of news, but only if it is in affluent neighborhoods.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 65):

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm looking for!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
Strange... so what is the point of taking home the rifle?

You can still shoot privately with your army-issued, selective-fire SIG_550">SIG 550 assault rifle. You can buy the custom 5.6mm cartridges at the shooting range (and it must be used there), or you can buy, in gun stores, the .223 Remington or 5.56×45mm NATO with a valid ID and indicating your current address. Those cartridges will not be as accurate as the custom 5.6 cartridge made especially for the SIG 550.

I find it strange that we Swiss shoot using an assault rifle, while in other countries, you shoot with a rifle that is compatible with International Shooting Sport Federation rules. But try changing that - the army giving you a rifle costing at least $2500 to shoot in your local rifle club.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 59):
You're showing me a wiki. Try again. I don't do Wikipedia. Show me a REAL source, please.

I'm often astounded how accurate a Wikipedia article is if the topic is cared for by a lot of people. Articles visited by very few people and edited by even less of them are a problem though - errors, omissions, rants and politically slanted stuff go undetected for a long time. Here, gun lovers and gun haters   keep an equal watch on the article.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
Barricade herself where, exactly?

As I read the story, she was inside a locked house and calling saying that there was a burglar trying to break in.

The father was going over to investigate when he encountered the son.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
Just because you seem to be incapable of rendering immediate, temporary assistance does not mean everyone else is incapable too.

Just because many people have firearms doesn't make them capable of correctly rendering assistance.

At least I admit that if I were to own a firearm, I'd need a bunch of training before I'd be of any help in this kind of situation.

Many gun owners seem to think that having a gun automatically qualifies them, often with tragic consequences.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
I used to live 2 miles from New Fairfield (across the state line in NY). 5 minutes would be a fairly quick response time, as the area is still rural.

Rural? Maybe fifty years ago...

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
Yep. No chance of him of thinking "I have to protect my sister".

Context, my friend. I was responding to a hypothetical about why this unfortunate episode could be instructive.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
Just a gun nut who has wet dreams of blasting someone away.

Your words, not mine.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
And in case you missed it, he did have every justification in the world to "blast away". But it's pretty clear you think aggressive defensive actions in response to deadly threats is a sign of a nutjob.

All we have is his version of events to establish that "justification".

We'll never know what would have happened if the father didn't have a gun and just called the cops and let them do their job.

From what I read, the father is now extremely depressed, so I'm thinking he wishes he did just that.

Note that I don't think the father is a "nutjob", I just feel that he like many gun owners he underestimates how difficult a job it is to be a law enforcement officer and should not be taking that job on for himself.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
The police have already said they're not going to charge the father with anything, and the gun was legal and properly registered.

If so, this is news to me. The stuff I read over the weekend said the investigation was going to take weeks.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3198 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
From what I read, the father is now extremely depressed, so I'm thinking he wishes he did just that.

I'm sure he wants to take it back. I'm sure he feels absolutely terrible...and responsible. These tend to be normal reactions when a law-abiding person shoots and kills someone else. In this case, the feelings are amplified because his assailant, unknown to him, was his son.

But, he is still alive to have these feelings. Can we say the same thing if he confronted this unknown assailant without a gun?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 72):
I find it strange that we Swiss shoot using an assault rifle, while in other countries, you shoot with a rifle that is compatible with International Shooting Sport Federation rules. But try changing that - the army giving you a rifle costing at least $2500 to shoot in your local rifle club.

Well, because it's just fun!   I'm asked all the time why I own several high caliber firearms, just find it fun. Just like we all enjoy aviation and others don't. Unfortunately, guns are often abused

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
Many gun owners seem to think that having a gun automatically qualifies them, often with tragic consequences.

I agree with this

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 55):
I used to live 2 miles from New Fairfield (across the state line in NY). 5 minutes would be a fairly quick response time, as the area is still rural.

Rural? Maybe fifty years ago...

But I disagree here. If you have 5 or so cops on a shift, it's very easy for them to get tied up in other cases. I interned so I got to see a lot of how a department operates, and luckily, when stuff did hit the fan, the response time was quick. But I also saw a day where they were down to 4 cops (the others were qualifying at a range) and all 4 cops were doing something or another... if something bad would have happened, they wouldn't exactly be able to leave the deceased old man before the coroner came, or stop directing traffic around an accident, drive away while writing a citation and holding someone's license. Response times can indeed take a long time

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
We'll never know what would have happened if the father didn't have a gun and just called the cops and let them do their job.

He could just as easily been killed... we don't know what the son was doing. It would be unlikely, but it's also very unlikely that a son would go into a family member's house with a mask on in the middle of the night and lunge at his father with a knife. Son on dad murders do happen.

Of course the father is going to regret the decision forever. I just don't think this is a very good example of restricting guns... it was such a bizarre case



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 75):

Well, in the rifle club, the only shooting you do is 300 meters, single shots, and 3-shot bursts. About the latter I'm not sure.

I'll ask a colleague if I can do some shooting with her rifle.  


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 76):
Well, in the rifle club, the only shooting you do is 300 meters, single shots, and 3-shot bursts. About the latter I'm not sure.

Ah, well target shooting was never my favorite. I like shooting/blowing up wooden blocks and other such random things. One of my favorite things is to set up a bunch of wood blocks and shoot them off (the larger calibers are very spectacular sometimes.)

When I was in college, we lived in very rural Georgia up in the mountains... there was this mountain road a lot of people would drive to and shoot a plethora of random things. Found a bunch of destroyed TVs nearby so I lit them up. IDK it just entertains me. I never would even think about using it on someone, and honestly I'm not that big on self-defense... just the defense of others. And I pray I'm never in that situation. But we digress



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 75):
If you have 5 or so cops on a shift,

According to the New Fairfield Police site there are 6 troopers assigned to New Fairfield, in addition to a sergeant, with a minimum of 2 troopers on duty at any given time. The site also mentions 6 full time New Fairfield officers. That's a total of 13 LEO's (assuming the sergeant responds and patrols) providing 24/7 law enforcement.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 75):
I agree with this

I think we need to separate those that own a gun and those that have a permit to carry. Those that have a permit have probably (depending on the state) gone through a class that should include the law pertaining to use of deadly force by an armed person.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 72):
I find it strange that we Swiss shoot using an assault rifle,

Because shooting "assault rifles" is fun.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 77):
there was this mountain road a lot of people would drive to and shoot a plethora of random things.

Well, in rural regions traffic signs sometimes have bullet holes from hunting rifles.  

I'd love to hunt my own food, but here, there is next to no hunting outside of hunting clubs.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
I think we need to separate those that own a gun and those that have a permit to carry. Those that have a permit have probably (depending on the state) gone through a class that should include the law pertaining to use of deadly force by an armed person.

Actually, I say this because I forget that many states require classes. GA just needed my fingerprints and $75. I think that the right to bear arms is good and all, but requiring effective safety classes and being very careful of who has access to weapons in no way violates the 2nd Amendment and is just being responsible

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 79):
I'd love to hunt my own food, but here, there is next to no hunting outside of hunting clubs.

I thought I'd like to hunt until I saw a police officer put a deer out of it's misery (won't describe the accident but that deer was a goner, no way it would be able to get around and eat, just starve to death being immobile.) I was really sad seeing it get shot and die, so I knew then I wouldn't want to hunt (not against hunting, just ain't for me.)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
Those that have a permit have probably (depending on the state) gone through a class that should include the law pertaining to use of deadly force by an armed person.

Knowing the law is really just the tip of the iceberg.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 81):
Knowing the law is really just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, that's why I strongly advocate training, practice, more training, additional practice and recurrent training and practice. Expensive, but, in my opinion, well worth it.

I am also not opposed to a home study guide and test (regarding the law) being sent with every renewal. I'll go so far as requiring the issuing state to inform each permit holder when a law related to carrying a firearm is added, amended or repealed.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6744 posts, RR: 8
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 80):
I think that the right to bear arms is good and all, but requiring effective safety classes and being very careful of who has access to weapons in no way violates the 2nd Amendment and is just being responsible

Most folks have no issue with the above, the problem is with the excess baggage, different states and municipalities need to add other things which just creates a political effect, resulting in extreme positions being taken by advicates on both sides, ending up in an either all or nothing position.

Mandating that folks take lessons on yearly renewal of a license/ permit is also not too onerous an option.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 83):
Most folks have no issue with the above, the problem is with the excess baggage, different states and municipalities need to add other things which just creates a political effect,

So long as the requirements do not present an unreasonable burden or become political fodder, I have no problem with requiring safety and knowledge classes before issuance of a permit and at renewal.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 80):
being very careful of who has access to weapons

You will need to define "being very careful". New York City and Washington D.C are very careful when issuing permits.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 84):
So long as the requirements do not present an unreasonable burden or become political fodder, I have no problem with requiring safety and knowledge classes before issuance of a permit and at renewal.

Somebody who really cares about his own safety (otherwise he would not have bought a $600-900 gun for self-defense) would not mind regular training on how to use the gun in "combat". Perhaps these training courses could cover exactly those situations where innocent people are liable to get killed.

I can imagine situations where you could, with enough experience and training, refrain from shooting for as long as possible. One could get training in how to categorize threats and respond to them - like a confused person screaming and wielding a knive 5 yards away from you vs. somebody who is determined to use that knive to rob you.

One adage from mountaineering is that if something goes bonkers, chances are high that you are carrying the right equipment with you, but chances are significantly lower that you know how to use it in an effective manner. For example, many people buy avalanche rescue transmitters for $250, but less people attend a $250 course on how to judge avalanche dangers and how to search avalanche survivors efficiently. The first thing gives you a feeling of security, the latter thing costs you... time.



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
As I read the story, she was inside a locked house and calling saying that there was a burglar trying to break in.

The father was going over to investigate when he encountered the son.

Ok.... so, exactly where was she going to barricade herself?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
Just because many people have firearms doesn't make them capable of correctly rendering assistance.

At least I admit that if I were to own a firearm, I'd need a bunch of training before I'd be of any help in this kind of situation.

Many gun owners seem to think that having a gun automatically qualifies them, often with tragic consequences.

And by all accounts, this guy did not fit that profile.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
Rural? Maybe fifty years ago...

Um, yea... rural. It may not be Wyoming or Kansas rural, but it's pretty spread out with winding roads over rolling hills.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
All we have is his version of events to establish that "justification".

Um, no. We have the sister who saw a suspicious person outside her house, and we have a body with a ski mask on with a weapon in hand. But that's okay, we'll just ignore that and the police departments professional judgements because you can't possibly fathom that a civilian is capable of responsibly owning and using gun.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
I just feel that he like many gun owners he underestimates how difficult a job it is to be a law enforcement officer and should not be taking that job on for himself.

Protecting someone is not only a job not exclusive to law enforcement, but law enforcement isn't even required to protect anyone. Just because something is a difficult decision and has long-lasting consequences, does not mean a civilian is incapable of making that decision or has some lust for shooting someone.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
But that's okay, we'll just ignore that and the police departments professional judgements because you can't possibly fathom that a civilian is capable of responsibly owning and using gun.

Your bang on.

You cant rely on civilians responsibility using guns in panicked situations, as this sorry episode clearly shows.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Just because something is a difficult decision and has long-lasting consequences, does not mean a civilian is incapable of making that decision or has some lust for shooting someone.

Even more reason why civilians should not have guns. Unless you are highly trained in incidents like this, you have NO business becoming embroiled in it.

Ring and wait for the proper authorities, its common sense.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Protecting someone is not only a job not exclusive to law enforcement, but law enforcement isn't even required to protect anyone.

Um what sort of a police service do you have in the US then......?

So my life is threatened, the police arrive on the scene, and for whatever reason, decide that they are "not required to protect me"

Wow !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

You know what I just thought of (maybe a little late,) there's a very good chance that the masked son could have lunged at the police officer and I guarantee you the officer would shoot someone coming at him with a knife. I think this kid was destined to die based off his actions honestly


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):

Your bang on.

You cant rely on civilians responsibility using guns in panicked situations, as this sorry episode clearly shows.

Yep. Guy defends himself against a masked attacker with a weapon, but that's somehow the wrong move.

What do you think the police would do in that situation?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
Even more reason why civilians should not have guns.

Did you even bother to read the post? I said that civilians are not incapable of making hard decisions. Your reply is a non-sequitor.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):

Um what sort of a police service do you have in the US then......?

So my life is threatened, the police arrive on the scene, and for whatever reason, decide that they are "not required to protect me"

I didn't say I liked it, but that's how it is. You know, limited resources and all that jazz. That's not to say that a police department that continually refuses to answer calls isn't going to be hung out to dry, but it won't be by the court system. I think you'll find a similar arrangement in Australia.

Oh, and your second sentence is not what I said. A police officer does have a legal responsibility to respond to immediate threats in his/her presence. The police department is not legally required to place that officer in such a situation.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5969 posts, RR: 27
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3076 times:
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Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
Believe it or not, sons and nephews are capable of doing horrific things to family members.

A few months ago a son beat his father to death with a baseball bat, here in metro Detroit. He Beat his mother and brother to near death and neither of them will ever fully recover from the massive head trauma they received. The 18 year old was intending to rob his family for drug money and when then won't give he beat the with a bat.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
Ring and wait for the proper authorities, its common sense.

When some junkie breaks in my house armed with a gun, pipe, knife, etc I am not going to have time to call the police and wait for them. That junkie will be dead long before the cops arrive. There isn't a cop on every corner in my town. It might take 10 minutes for one to show up and by that time I could be dead.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 88):
You know what I just thought of (maybe a little late,) there's a very good chance that the masked son could have lunged at the police officer and I guarantee you the officer would shoot someone coming at him with a knife. I think this kid was destined to die based off his actions honestly


Exactly. No doubt a police officer would shot the kid just like the father did.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
You cant rely on civilians responsibility using guns in panicked situations, as this sorry episode clearly shows.


If the kid lunged at the cop the outcome would have been exactly the same.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
Ring and wait for the proper authorities, its common sense.


Yea, that isnt happening. I am not the person who will go outside and confront the guy stealing from my car or walking around the yard. The police can take care of that. But if someone is trying to come inside the home or might cause personal injury to anyone. Well then I am not waiting to hope the police come in time.

This certainly is an odd situation.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 89):
What do you think the police would do in that situation?

What they the police are supposed to do, (at least here in OZ) defuse the situation, before it escalated into this tragedy.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 89):
I said that civilians are not incapable of making hard decisions.

And your right, but not very many. Im saying though, that more often than not, they are not equipped, nor do the have negotiation skills.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 89):
A police officer does have a legal responsibility to respond to immediate threats in his/her presence. The police department is not legally required to place that officer in such a situation.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here....

1) A police officer does have a legal responsibility to respond to immediate threats in his/her presence. BUT........
2) The police department is not legally required to place that officer in such a situation.

So, if the police department is not required to place that officer in a threatening situation, then what the hell happens to the perpetrators of crimes.... they just walk away because the situation is to difficult ?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 90):
When some junkie breaks in my house armed with a gun, pipe, knife, etc I am not going to have time to call the police and wait for them.

Then you exit the house, take yourself out of the dangerous situation, and then call the police from a safe location.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 90):
That junkie will be dead long before the cops arrive.

Hopefully killed by the police, not some untrained civilian.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 90):
It might take 10 minutes for one to show up and by that time I could be dead.

You and your family, and done with your own gun..... wouldn't that be ironic, and very unfortunate !

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
If the kid lunged at the cop the outcome would have been exactly the same.

That may well be.
But as I said, the police are, or should be highly trained (much more so than if it were just you or me), not only in having to shoot people, but they also have vast resources in trauma and grief counseling, when events like these occur.

How do you think this father is going to feel for the rest of his life ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
You cant rely on civilians responsibility using guns in panicked situations, as this sorry episode clearly shows

Actually, I believe he acted entirely correctly. An armed, masked assailant came at him. He defended himself and his sister. What too many people fail to realize is that even the right decisions can have some lousy outcomes.

I'm sure any police officer who is presented with the same situation would have done the same thing.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
Ring and wait for the proper authorities, its common sense.

As my signature says: "When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away."

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
Um what sort of a police service do you have in the US then......?

The police in the United States....and I would argue just about anywhere else, do NOT have a duty to protect anyone, except in some very narrow circumstances. A decent, well referenced, summary:

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/m...;article_id=341&issue_id=72004

And, it makes sense, else people could sue their local departments and cities, ad-nauseum, every time someone is the victim of a crime.

A police officer's job is to investigate crime and to track and apprehend suspected criminals and deliver them to the appropriate agency. Yes, an officer can stop crime and protect, if they happen to be on the scene while the criminal act is happening.

Remember: a police officer does not carry a gun to protect you...he carries a gun to protect himself.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
What they the police are supposed to do, (at least here in OZ) defuse the situation, before it escalated into this tragedy.

I guarantee you if this kid lunged at an Australian policeman the kid would have been shot



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
So, if the police department is not required to place that officer in a threatening situation, then what the hell happens to the perpetrators of crimes.... they just walk away because the situation is to difficult ?

No, they don't walk away. If there is a situation that may become difficult...in the opinion of the dispatcher, the responding officer or the supervisor, the initial response may be held back in order to provide additional resources or intelligence. Read up on the Columbine Shooting. More folks died because the police followed standard doctrine and tried to contain the situation. Tactics have changed since then and if there is an active threat, the threat is probably going to go down.

The #1 job of a police officer (or any emergency personnel) is to act in a manner so that they get to home at the end of their shift. That means their safety is number one, not yours.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
Hopefully killed by the police, not some untrained civilian.

But, if you have to wait for the police; how many others would be dead also?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 94):
I guarantee you if this kid lunged at an Australian policeman the kid would have been shot

Who's saying different.

If this boy was doing it as a "joke", which at this point in time, has NOT been determined, is not out of the question (as being a motive) then I would find it hard to believe (unless the guy was a complete lunatic) that once police arrived with the lights and siren going, that he would lunge a the police.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 95):
But, if you have to wait for the police; how many others would be dead also?

That's not your worry.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 93):
The police in the United States....and I would argue just about anywhere else, do NOT have a duty to protect anyone, except in some very narrow circumstances. A decent, well referenced, summary:

I am not a lawyer, nor any type of legal expert.So I cant understand it.

To me, this article is a load of gobblty gook !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 96):
If this boy was doing it as a "joke", which at this point in time, has NOT been determined, is not out of the question (as being a motive) then I would find it hard to believe (unless the guy was a complete lunatic) that once police arrived with the lights and siren going, that he would lunge a the police.

Uh if he's willing to scare the **** out of his dad (who is armed) and lunge at him as an unknown person threateningly I don't think the big bad police would scare him

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 96):
That's not your worry.

My loved ones are my worry. I'm probably less likely to use a gun than some here (killing would be the absolute last case, we'd be barricaded in my room, police called, gun pointed at the door) but if that door goes down and I don't see something I don't like, I'd probably unload at that point.

Going to a vulnerable family member's house... I'd absolutely go, even if I wasn't armed. Again, I wouldn't see some random guy and think hey, I don't know him, BAM only for it to be a repair man, but if I go there and I see some shady guy with a gun trying to kick down a bedroom door you better believe I'd act



Again, this is a really convoluted example. It's hard to say "what if" and to blame the father because there is a very good chance he'd be blasted away by police officers, or the kid could have murdered the dad or aunt. I'd stick with the cases where the kid sneaks out, goes to a party, and gets shot when sneaking back in just because the dad sees a dark figure in the house... those are the cut and dry preventable cases



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
My loved ones are my worry. I'm probably less likely to use a gun than some here (killing would be the absolute last case, we'd be barricaded in my room, police called, gun pointed at the door) but if that door goes down and I don't see something I don't like, I'd probably unload at that point.

Going to a vulnerable family member's house... I'd absolutely go, even if I wasn't armed. Again, I wouldn't see some random guy and think hey, I don't know him, BAM only for it to be a repair man, but if I go there and I see some shady guy with a gun trying to kick down a bedroom door you better believe I'd act

And to add, if the closest cop is 20 miles away, you would have no choice but to defend yourself and others. You don't have the luxury of 20 minutes of waiting time because by the time the cop arrives, somebody would be either shot or worse.

Cops cannot be everywhere, they are not guaranteed to assist you in a moments notice like in a big city. Places like Nebraska and Texas, for example, in the middle of nowhere, you're pretty much on your own. Like I said, the closest cop could be 20 miles away. You're on your own.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

And don't get me wrong, with the big responsibility I think people should have comes (or should come with) training and proficiency. Too many uneducated people running around with guns IMO

[Edited 2012-10-02 20:43:45]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
Too many uneducated people running around with guns IMO

That's absolutely true. This is one of the things the NRA is trying to get changed, I believe. They strongly advocate safety training as if there is no tomorrow. So, with that said, I think everyone on this tread agrees that training and education needs to greatly improve.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
Uh if he's willing to scare the **** out of his dad (who is armed) and lunge at him as an unknown person threateningly I don't think the big bad police would scare him

DeltaMD90,

Did the father identify to the youth that he was armed, the article dose not say ?
From what I read in the article, the father "believing the suspect was armed with a weapon and about to attack him"
Not sure how the father came to that conclusion, but that's what set this entire chain of events off, but that's of little consequence now I guess.

There is also, no mention, of the boy "lunging" at his father, and there is no word on whether the father said he was armed.

There is also no word on exactly the the father, thought he saw, as a weapon ?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
I'm probably less likely to use a gun than some here (killing would be the absolute last case, we'd be barricaded in my room, police called, gun pointed at the door) but if that door goes down and I don't see something I don't like, I'd probably unload at that point.

This is a little different for the situation we are talking about, but in this case I would do the same, if I had done all the things you mentioned.
However, I would not go out into the darkness in the middle of the night, and try to apprehend someone, sorry but I just wouldn't
That would be a receipt for disaster.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 98):
Places like Nebraska and Texas, for example, in the middle of nowhere, you're pretty much on your own. Like I said, the closest cop could be 20 miles away. You're on your own.

Just out of interest, where do most shootings take place, in built up city/suburban areas, or rural ?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 100):
That's absolutely true.

And that's why this should NEVER of happened

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 100):
They strongly advocate safety training as if there is no tomorrow.

They can advocate whatever for as long as they want, Safety, wont make ANY difference, its all about reaction to a stress situation. Nothing to do with safety



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 14):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
But we wouldn't take away every driver's license

Ok.
But cars do in fact require licenses to use.

Sadly it may be a requirement to have a driver's license, but its a fact you don't need one to drive.
Nor in states where they give licenses to anyone just for breathing, do you need insurance. Much like guns,you can pass the laws you want requiring this and that, but the people who are going to break the law in the first place , won't give a damn about any of those laws.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 22):
Your wife leaves the bed at 2 AM because she has to visit the toilet, or she has trouble sleeping, and so she is bustling around in the apartment with the room lights switched off in order not to disturb your sleep. You're waking up, hearing the noises, but not realizing that your wife isn't in your bed anymore... and you approach her with a drawn handgun.

I believe this could happen but if a person is stupid enough to hear noises and not check to see if their wife is out of bed, sounds like someone trying to hide a future murder.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):
Just out of interest, where do most shootings take place, in built up city/suburban areas, or rural ?

Pretty much everywhere.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):
And that's why this should NEVER of happened

Agreed but it still happened. And it will happen again. We can keep analyzing this one case over and over and over, the end result is going to be the same. Accept it for what it is.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):
They can advocate whatever for as long as they want, Safety, wont make ANY difference, its all about reaction to a stress situation. Nothing to do with safety

Then what would be your suggestion? What do you think should the father have done? "Hey, what are you doing? Come here, lets talk." I don't think so. If the perp is lounging the father with any weapon, it's either kill or be killed which references my point in reply 98.

Again, in situations like this, no matter how harsh the reality of it.... It's either kill or be killed. There is no other choice. But no, you'd disagree 1,000%, Commodore. You're posting habits on gun topics clearly show that you don't believe people have the right to defend themselves in any way, shape or form. Not everyone thinks the same way you do.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 103):
Commodore. You're posting habits on gun topics clearly show that you don't believe people have the right to defend themselves in any way, shape or form.

Without being rude, so what ?

Should I be ashamed to have a different opinion as to yours, about having to own a gun for self-defense ?

Not on your life.

I'm eternity grateful that I live in a relatively peaceful place, where you don't need to be armed to go about your daily existence.

Generally speaking, if you need urgent assistance, you can depend on the proper authorities to come.

But, if for some reason, the police don't get to you before some axe wielding mad man, has managed to cut your head off, then i'd just say, well perhaps my time was just up !

No way I'm going to walk around for the rest of my life, carrying a gun...."Just in case scenario"

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 103):
Then what would be your suggestion?

As I said, let the cops deal with it. Not only did he put himself in danger, he managed to kill his Son now too. Great ending for both parties don't you think ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 102):
I believe this could happen but if a person is stupid enough to hear noises and not check to see if their wife is out of bed, sounds like someone trying to hide a future murder.

It can happen, and the husband does not have to prove his innocence.

How would you prove his guilt anyway?


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):
As I read the story, she was inside a locked house and calling saying that there was a burglar trying to break in.

The father was going over to investigate when he encountered the son.

Ok.... so, exactly where was she going to barricade herself?

In the house, right?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
And by all accounts, this guy did not fit that profile.

What accounts are you referring to?

We know he is a full-time teacher and that he has a background in security. That could be anything from being a former member of Secret Service down to a former unarmed security guard.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Um, yea... rural. It may not be Wyoming or Kansas rural, but it's pretty spread out with winding roads over rolling hills.

For some context:

Quote:

As of the census[2] of 2000, there were 13,953 people, 4,638 households, and 3,905 families residing in the town. The population density was 681.9 people per square mile (263.3/km�). There were 5,148 housing units at an average density of 251.6 per square mile (97.1/km�). The racial makeup of the town was 98.83% White, 0.18% African American, 0.04% Native American, 1.27% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.52% from other races, and 0.15% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.82% of the population.

Not inner city Detroit, but not indeed not in the badlands of South Dakota.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Um, no. We have the sister who saw a suspicious person outside her house, and we have a body with a ski mask on with a weapon in hand. But that's okay, we'll just ignore that and the police departments professional judgements because you can't possibly fathom that a civilian is capable of responsibly owning and using gun.

What we have is a father who is going to his son's funeral knowing that it was he who shot his own son.

What we have is a man and a wife and four children looking at an empty bedroom knowing it was the father who shot the son.

It is indeed a situation that is hard to fathom.

Indeed we do have a "responsible gun owner", one responsible for the death of his own son. I doubt he's talking about the "clean kill" at the funeral. Instead, I think he has a lot of sleepless nights coming up, ones where he replays the scene where the state cop pulls back the mask and he sees his dead son's face.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 86):
Protecting someone is not only a job not exclusive to law enforcement, but law enforcement isn't even required to protect anyone. Just because something is a difficult decision and has long-lasting consequences, does not mean a civilian is incapable of making that decision or has some lust for shooting someone.

It's a life or death decision. Once made, it can't be unmade. You might be happy with the current state of affairs, but I am not.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 89):
Yep. Guy defends himself against a masked attacker with a weapon, but that's somehow the wrong move.

What do you think the police would do in that situation?

There is not much information about what exactly went on.

From what I know of well trained police officers, I would say odds are pretty high that the situation just would not have unfolded this way.

Without knowing more, it's hard to know how the kid got close enough to the father to be able to be a threat with a knife, and if a professionally trained officer would have found himself in that situation. We don't know anything about the knife itself. I think we can presume the father wasn't wearing body armor. We don't know if the father had a flashlight and was using it. I think we do know that hearing a patrol car and seeing a uniformed police officer would scare the average suburban teenager.

Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
No doubt a police officer would shot the kid just like the father did.
Quoting flymia (Reply 91):
If the kid lunged at the cop the outcome would have been exactly the same.

Based on what we little we know of the situation, there is plenty of room for doubt.

If one boils it down to "would a cop shoot someone who lunged at them with a knife", then the answer is probably yes, although there are other ways to deal with the situation, such as using a taser long before it became knife vs gun.

However one can't just boil it down to that, because we don't know if the situation would unfold itself the same way if a trained policeman was involved.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 96):
That's not your worry.

Yes, if it's my family or friends who may be injured, it is my worry. If it's an innocent bystander, and I could have done something, it's my worry. Sorry, I can't just stand around and watch society breakdown around me because someone I don't know may be killed and "that's not my worry".

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 96):
I am not a lawyer, nor any type of legal expert.So I cant understand it.

To me, this article is a load of gobblty gook !

What it says, in human speak, is that the police have no legal duty to protect the citizen unless a very narrow set of circumstances are in place.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 96):
If this boy was doing it as a "joke", which at this point in time, has NOT been determined,

Really? A joke? You come at your father, while masked, with a weapon, as a joke? You're reaching.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 106):
It is indeed a situation that is hard to fathom.

And, like I said before, even the right decision can have some really crappy results. I'm sure Mr. Giuliano wishes he hadn't pulled that trigger. Heck, he may wish that he died in his son's place, and he may have if he didn't have a gun. But, he didn't know it was his son, did he? All he knew was that there was a masked person, lunging at him, with a weapon. I probably would have shot. Any police officer would have shot. I believe any reasonable person would have shot.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
Generally speaking, if you need urgent assistance, you can depend on the proper authorities to come.

Not when the cops are 20 miles away. You're on your own on that. You need to understand that.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
As I said, let the cops deal with it

Translation: Just stand there, let the suspect attack the guy and the guy does nothing but die. Uh, ok.   . We are not allowed to defend ourselves per Commodore.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
Not only did he put himself in danger, he managed to kill his Son now too.

Are you for real?! Again and again, he had no idea it was his own son. The son was wearing a ski mask and had a knife in the middle of the night. How could he even tell it was his own kid? He couldn't!

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
No way I'm going to walk around for the rest of my life, carrying a gun...."Just in case scenario"

Then that's your choice. At the same time, don't go around telling people here that they don't have the right to defend themselves and their families. You hate guns. We get it. Don't you think it's time to start moving on instead of trolling on every gun thread expressing your deep distaste for guns and want to see every gun banned.

Get over it, Commodore. The guns are here to stay. They ain't going anywhere. It's not your choice if we, Americans, chose to arm ourselves or not. This is an Ametican thing, and proud of our Second Anendment. Our Second Amendment does not impact you and Australia.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
Great ending for both parties don't you think ?

Never did I say it was. My point still stands.... Kill or be killed. I cannot imagine what option you would take. A smart individual would take the former...... What would you chose, Commodore?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 107):
Yes, if it's my family or friends who may be injured, it is my worry. If it's an innocent bystander, and I could have done something, it's my worry. Sorry, I can't just stand around and watch society breakdown around me because someone I don't know may be killed and "that's not my worry".

Agreed 100%



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 90):
A few months ago a son beat his father to death with a baseball bat, here in metro Detroit. He Beat his mother and brother to near death and neither of them will ever fully recover from the massive head trauma they received. The 18 year old was intending to rob his family for drug money and when then won't give he beat the with a bat.

My cousins live in Farminton and they knew the kids.

I'm not a firearms expert, but in a self-defence home invasion scenario, wouldn't a shotgun make more sense over a handgun? (Purely academic in this instance)


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
No, this thread is another example of the extreme nature of anti-gun activists, making up stuff about an incident to suit their agenda. Next time, try to stick to the facts.

Coming from an extreme pro-gun activist, twisting and turning and most of all ignoring facts.

This is a perfect example of why the US gun mentality doesn't work. This guy did everything by the book and the end result is just about as horrible as can be. You will argue it would be worse if the sister and dad were killed but the reality is that for the family both are disasters to the point of no difference.

I have nothing against guns. I'm against how people use them. Perfectly fine to use them for hunting. Perfectly fine to use them on the range. Thinking they make you capable to defend yourself, even confront intruders is one area where I have problems. The poor handling and storing another.

Going back to this case. There is a lot of information missing but it is very likely that something as simple as turning on the lights could have defused the whole situation. The kid would have run away and there would be a lot of questions who tried to break in. Much better living with that doubt, or?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You could look at it as an example of how it DOES work.

How can I possibly do that? We have more questions than answers and we have a devastated family.

Looking at how many home invasions taking place each year it doesn't seem to be a deterrent either. So just what is working?


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5969 posts, RR: 27
Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2914 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
Then you exit the house, take yourself out of the dangerous situation, and then call the police from a safe location

I will never allow an intruder to chase me from my home. I own my home and no criminal is going to get me to leave. Why should anyone let criminals push them around. Where would I call from? Pounding on doors to use the neighbor's phone at 2am isn't going to go over well, I doubt they would answer the door at that hour. I have a friend who lives on 500 acres, what would he do if he ran out of the house walk over a mile to the nearest phone. You might say use your cell phone. I charge my phone in my kitchen, on the counter. What if the armed robber is in the kitchen and I have to exit my bedroom window. I won't have a phone.

You have to be able to take care of yourself and not depend on the police to be there. I have two fire extinguishers too, if I see a fire in my home should I run away from the danger and wait for the fire department to arrive? I think not.

Depending on where you live response times for police and fire can be long.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
You and your family, and done with your own gun

How exactly? I plan on shooting the guy as soon as he walks through the door/window. I have been trained in home defense and I'm not going to let somebody grab my gun before I shoot.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 109):
I'm not a firearms expert, but in a self-defence home invasion scenario, wouldn't a shotgun make more sense over a handgun? (Purely academic in this instance)

Yes it does. The sound of a pump action shotgun may very well make somebody run. The shotgun is good because the scatter may very well hit the guy. You don't have to be a good shot to hit somebody with a shot gun. Even if you are a good shot with a pistol a home invasion is likely to occur at night where low light conditions make it difficult to get a good shot at a moving target. A shotgun in great for home defense.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2904 times:

Also shot guns don't go through walls very well either.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 112):

That's also true. They also do a hell of a lot more damage to a human bring at close range than a 9mm would.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 112):
Also shot guns don't go through walls very well either.

You can also buy a wide variety of less than lethal rounds for a shotgun. The first 2 in mine are LTL.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
I will never allow an intruder to chase me from my home. I own my home and no criminal is going to get me to leave.

Because it is much better to be killed.   

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
Pounding on doors to use the neighbor's phone at 2am isn't going to go over well

Because they will shoot at everyone getting close to their house in the middle of the night.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
I charge my phone in my kitchen, on the counter. What if the armed robber is in the kitchen and I have to exit my bedroom window. I won't have a phone.

Fortunately you never let your gun be that far away.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
I have two fire extinguishers too, if I see a fire in my home should I run away from the danger and wait for the fire department to arrive? I think not.

Right, two fire extinguishers is enough for every fire. Anyway, you own your home and nothing will make you leave.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
Depending on where you live response times for police and fire can be long.

But ambulances and doctors always respond quickly in case you get shot.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
How exactly? I plan on shooting the guy as soon as he walks through the door/window. I have been trained in home defense and I'm not going to let somebody grab my gun before I shoot.

Great plan. What can possibly go wrong?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 107):
All he knew was that there was a masked person, lunging at him, with a weapon.

All we know is what the father himself is saying about the encounter outside. I presume the police have been told more details but at this point they are not public.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
I will never allow an intruder to chase me from my home. I own my home and no criminal is going to get me to leave.

Which means you're willing to be in a life vs death battle which I presume you think you will win, but also might lose.

What are you defending that's worth that risk?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 117, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):
There is also, no mention, of the boy "lunging" at his father, and there is no word on whether the father said he was armed.

I think getting lunged at with a knife is a little late for warning someone you are armed. But you bring up a good point, all the facts aren't out, I'm just going with his story for now

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):
However, I would not go out into the darkness in the middle of the night, and try to apprehend someone,

I'm not sure he was doing that, I think he was just going to protect his sister

Quoting cmf (Reply 110):
This is a perfect example of why the US gun mentality doesn't work. This guy did everything by the book and the end result is just about as horrible as can be. You will argue it would be worse if the sister and dad were killed but the reality is that for the family both are disasters to the point of no difference.

Well because we don't know the other outcome (what would have happened if the boy wasn't shot) it's kinda hard to say what would've happened and if it would've been better or worse. When you shoot a son/daughter sneaking in from a party, the answer is clear: you messed up and killed your innocent kid. For all we know, this guy could've saved the sister from a terrible death (a great example of how the US gun mentality worked) or the kid could've been playing a weird joke with no intention of hurting anyone (showing how the US gun mentality didn't work)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
Well because we don't know the other outcome

That is part of the problem, we never know what the outcome would be by changing something. Goes for this case, and all other cases.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
it's kinda hard to say what would've happened and if it would've been better or worse.

We can speculate at what the worst case alternative would be. I suggested it is the father and his sister killed. I consider that an absolutely horrible outcome and while technically worse I don't think we as humans are able to distinguish between this scenario and what happened.

But what we are missing is how the whole situation could have been defused without shots fired. I have seen nothing describing how the sister found out someone was trying to break in. Based on the time I expect she was in bed and heard something. What do you think would have happened if she turned on a light or started a burglar alarm at that time?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 119, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 118):
What do you think would have happened if she turned on a light or started a burglar alarm at that time?

I don't know but you better believe if it was my sister I wouldn't hope the light would scare the burglar away



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 120, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Not when the cops are 20 miles away.

Isn't this just convenient to say that, the cops are always 20 miles away according to you. No wonder you all have to be armed  
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
let the suspect attack the guy and the guy does nothing but die. Uh, ok.

Who said the guy was going to attack him. The article clearly states and I quote "The father went over to investigate and was approached by a masked person dressed entirely in black and holding a shiny object, police said in a statement."

Where's the attack exactly ????

And then the article goes on to say, and I quote "Believing the suspect was armed with a weapon and about to attack him, the (father) discharged his personal handgun at the suspect,"

Believing he's about to be attacked....... Um. Could he (the father) perhaps have been mistaken.... to late to find out now. But you don't seem to give a rats arse about that minor fact  Wow!
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Are you for real?!

Yes, very much so. Are you ?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Again and again, he had no idea it was his own son.

Even more reason why you need to be careful, or do you guys just open fire willy nilly at anything that moves.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Then that's your choice.

Your dead right it is. And as an American, you of all people should know about "rights and choices" and "freedom" and all that other stuff, that's over flowing out of the most sacred (never to be changed and set in stone forever and a day) document, the constitution !

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Don't you think it's time to start moving on instead of trolling on every gun thread expressing your deep distaste for guns and want to see every gun banned.

Why?

This is an open thread in case you hadn't noticed, airframeAS, and as such I will contribute to these posts as I wish, just as YOU do. No ?

Couldn't I ask you to "move on" politely instead ?
You continue to tell us all on a.net, about why/how you justify your gun touting causes to the rest of us, endlessly. Yawn.

Or are you the only on who's allowed an opinion here ? :-|

Crime in general is going up in the US. Home invasions are on the increase, as is gun ownership, yet more and more tragedies continue to happen on a daily basis.

So I think you can say, its not getting any safer is it. ??

But who care about that airframeAS, you continue with the arms race, it doesn't seem to be helping the cause any, but you don't need me to tell you that now do you.  
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Never did I say it was.

That is what you implied !

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
My point still stands.... Kill or be killed.

Then its a pity they all weren't armed, because they'd all be happier now. than what's really occurred in this tragic event, where a father is going to have to live with this memory for ever

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
A smart individual would take the former...... What would you chose, Commodore?

No No. A smart individual would not have put himself into that situation in the first place.  
Quoting falstaff (Reply 111):
Pounding on doors to use the neighbor's phone at 2am isn't going to go over well,

What ?
Are you saying your neighbors and going to have the shits with you, if you call upon them for help ? Wow, nice people they must be

If that's the case, then I'd get new neighbors !

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
But you bring up a good point, all the facts aren't out, I'm just going with his story for now

Yep, and there is no mention of lunging with a knife, only a feeling of "believing that he was going to be attacked"

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
I'm not sure he was doing that, I think he was just going to protect his sister

Um, he was doing that.
He left his house to apprehend and stop (which he did rather too well i'd say) the thief/home invader, for getting to the sister.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
or the kid could've been playing a weird joke with no intention of hurting anyone (showing how the US gun mentality didn't work)

That was my point made earlier in the thread. This could have all been a tragic joke that went wrong, but it didnt need too.

Quoting cmf (Reply 118):
What do you think would have happened if she turned on a light or started a burglar alarm at that time?

On the face of it, that's not a bad idea.  

But. its easier to just pick up a gun and shoot it around I suppose.         



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
But. its easier to just pick up a gun and shoot it around I suppose.         

I think we are going around in circles, but I think this comment is somewhat baseless. We don't know if he just went in guns blazing

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
Yep, and there is no mention of lunging with a knife, only a feeling of "believing that he was going to be attacked"

That's really all that's needed for self defense. Situations like this don't happen very often, I don't think, and shouldn't be extrapolated to the rest of the self defense cases. Guns can certainly lead to rash decisions which is why gun owners need to be extra vigilant and responsible

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
This is an open thread in case you hadn't noticed, ------ , and as such I will contribute to these posts as I wish, just as YOU do. No ?

   We do not see eye to eye but I respect your opinions. There are many of us on here that will come out on the pro-gun side most of the time and we have just as much right to speak as you



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 121):
There are many of us on here that will come out on the pro-gun side most of the time and we have just as much right to speak as you

Absolutely you do.

But I'm not the one telling people otherwise.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
What they the police are supposed to do, (at least here in OZ) defuse the situation, before it escalated into this tragedy.

  

I love how you assume every single situation can be defused, and that the police are perfect in defusing them.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):
And your right, but not very many. Im saying though, that more often than not, they are not equipped, nor do the have negotiation skills.

When a cop sees someone prowling outside a house, there is ZERO negotiation. The officer will ORDER the suspect to the ground. If the suspect makes a threatening move, they don't kindly ask for them to stop: they make them stop.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):

Then you exit the house

And what if there's no clean exit route?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 92):

Hopefully killed by the police, not some untrained civilian.

As you and Revelation say: dead is dead. It's confounding that when every other condition is the same, on person gets the support while the other doesn't just because one has a title of "police officer".

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 101):

From what I read in the article, the father "believing the suspect was armed with a weapon and about to attack him"
Not sure how the father came to that conclusion

Hmmm... maybe he was looking with his eyes?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):

But, if for some reason, the police don't get to you before some axe wielding mad man, has managed to cut your head off, then i'd just say, well perhaps my time was just up !

Suit yourself. But everyone has the right to defend themselves... this is even encoded in your Australian legal system.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 106):

In the house, right?

Don't be obtuse.

Quoting cmf (Reply 110):

Coming from an extreme pro-gun activist, twisting and turning and most of all ignoring facts.

If you consider that I believe every law-abiding citizen has the right to own guns extreme, so be it. But also know this: I support having mandatory training and testing to own a gun, as a compromise to the very real risk that most people otherwise wouldn't know how to handle them.

And I would love for you to show me where I have "twisted", "turned", or "ignored" any facts.

Quoting cmf (Reply 110):
the reality is that for the family both are disasters to the point of no difference.

You started this thread by using this one incident of a legally justifiable homicide and concluded that the US gun mentality doesn't work, yet if there's no difference between the possible disasters, then clearly nothing works. You contradict yourself.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
the cops are always 20 miles away according to you.

I never said that they were always were 20 miles away. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
Where's the attack exactly ????

He was approached by a person with a weapon. You said it yourself. Being approached could mean anything.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
Believing he's about to be attacked....... Um. Could he (the father) perhaps have been mistaken.... to late to find out now. But you don't seem to give a rats arse about that minor fact

It's called..... Wait for it.... Wait for it.... Self defense.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
Are you ?

Yes, I am.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
That is what you implied !

I didn't imply anything. You got me confused with someone else.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
No No. A smart individual would not have put himself into that situation in the first place.

Answer the question, please.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
This is an open thread in case you hadn't noticed, airframeAS, and as such I will contribute to these posts as I wish, just as YOU do. No ?

Couldn't I ask you to "move on" politely instead ?
You continue to tell us all on a.net, about why/how you justify your gun touting causes to the rest of us, endlessly. Yawn.

Or are you the only on who's allowed an opinion here ? :-|

Crime in general is going up in the US. Home invasions are on the increase, as is gun ownership, yet more and more tragedies continue to happen on a daily basis.

So I think you can say, its not getting any safer is it. ??

But who care about that airframeAS, you continue with the arms race, it doesn't seem to be helping the cause any, but you don't need me to tell you that now do you.

Congrats, you just became Enilria, but in the gun debate. Kudos.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
Then its a pity they all weren't armed, because they'd all be happier now.

Happier bring 6 feet under cuz they didn't and or couldn't defend himself because he wasn't allowed to under your perfect world? Unreal.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
I never said that they were always were 20 miles away.

You've mentioned 20 miles in several previous posts in this thread, once here...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 98):
And to add, if the closest cop is 20 miles away, you would have no choice but to defend yourself and others.

And the other here....

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 108):
Not when the cops are 20 miles away. You're on your own on that. You need to understand that.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
Stop putting words in my mouth.

Your only capable of doing that yourself.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
You said it yourself. Being approached could mean anything.

Yes it could, it could be anything.......not always attack.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
Answer the question, please.

I did

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
Happier bring 6 feet under cuz they didn't and or couldn't defend himself because he wasn't allowed to under your perfect world? Unreal.

Or living a life of mental torture and anguish for the rest of your days, once you'd learned that you mistakenly killed someone unnecessarily, like your son.

Yeah I think I would be happier being 6ft under instead of living with all that regret.

So, no, its not unreal at all.

Anyway. that's me done in this thread.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 123):
If you consider that I believe every law-abiding citizen has the right to own guns extreme, so be it.

Where have I suggested you should not be allowed to own guns?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 123):
And I would love for you to show me where I have "twisted", "turned", or "ignored" any facts.

The one above for example. Most of your reply 2.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 123):
You started this thread by using this one incident of a legally justifiable homicide and concluded that the US gun mentality doesn't work, yet if there's no difference between the possible disasters, then clearly nothing works. You contradict yourself.

Sadly this is a good example of the mentality not working. The obvious solution to most people in other developed countries is to not turn a burglary in to a killing.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
Happier bring 6 feet under cuz they didn't and or couldn't defend himself because he wasn't allowed to under your perfect world? Unreal.

Happier being 6 ft under because you confronted and came up second.

It isn't that self defense isn't allowed. It is that confronting and shooting is rarely the smart solution. Yet it is the default option to many, as we clearly see in this thread. Why I called it a mentality problem.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 127, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 125):
You've mentioned 20 miles in several previous posts in this thread, once here...

Read it again....I never said that they were always 20 miles away, genius. Quit twisting my words. You added "always".

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 125):
I did

No, you didn't. Still waiting for it. Would you kill or be killed? Those are your only two options. Now answer the darn question, SIR.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 125):
Anyway. that's me done in this thread.

So, you're backing out now? Seriously? This is a first by you in a gun thread all in part because you cant get people to live by your ways and see things your way. LOL. So unlike you, Commodore.

Color me shocked!   

Edit add: spelling.

[Edited 2012-10-03 20:08:42]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 128, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

What a long thread. I can't read all of it, so I apologize should answers to my questions have already been given.

1. Is it legal under US law, or rather the law of that specific state, to shoot someone outside of your home? If it isn't, then he would have only acted in self defense if the ''he lounged at me'' bit is actually true. A man making up a story to avoid serving a life sentence sounds a little more plausible to me than his story.

2. Are there any reliable statistics of ''lives saved'' because of the lack of gun control? Burglars are usually not murderers. It appears to me that most home owners want the ability to shoot an intruder as their way of vigilante retribution, rather than for actual protection.

I personally would not want to live knowing I've taken a man's life. I'd rather spend my money on securing my home, using proper windows, doors, locks, motion sensors, cameras, lamps, alarm systems, neighborhood watch patrols etc. than arming myself. Should someone still make it into my home, I'd call the cops and hide. I don't see how my chances of survival could somehow be augmented if I were armed.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 129, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 127):
Read it again....I never said that they were always 20 miles away, genius. Quit twisting my words. You added "always".

You said it twice, in two different conversations within this thread.

To me, the way I read it, you mentioned 20 miles twice, therefor in those two case its "always" because you didn't mention any other figure did you ?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 127):
No, you didn't. Still waiting for it. Would you kill or be killed? Those are your only two options. Now answer the darn question, SIR.

I did, but here it is again for you....

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
No No. A smart individual would not have put himself into that situation in the first place.

That's me, a smart individual, who wouldn't put himself into that situation in the first place. Got it !

We all know you'd play hero and do otherwise, as is your prerogative, just not mine !

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 127):
Those are your only two options.

No. They are not your only options. We've been through this already
For you, there are only 2 options, but not for others, as Ive stated above.

Quoting something (Reply 128):

I personally would not want to live knowing I've taken a man's life.

Me too, but apparently that's the wrong thing to do.... Go figure ??????

Quoting something (Reply 128):
Should someone still make it into my home, I'd call the cops and hide.

But the cops might be more than 20 miles away according to airframeAS

So arm yourself, otherwise your a gonner man !         

Now, I am done.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11959 posts, RR: 25
Reply 130, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 123):
When a cop sees someone prowling outside a house, there is ZERO negotiation. The officer will ORDER the suspect to the ground. If the suspect makes a threatening move, they don't kindly ask for them to stop: they make them stop.

Yes. However we don't know if this is what happened in this situation. All we've heard about is the alleged knife lunge. We don't know if the kid was hiding and got the drop on the father, or if both were equally surprised by the other and both paniced.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 123):
It's confounding that when every other condition is the same, on person gets the support while the other doesn't just because one has a title of "police officer".

You seem to have some resentment towards police officers.

Police officers of course get public support. The public pays to train them on an ongoing basis and equip them with both offensive and defensive capabilities. Their training has a huge focus on how to avoid finding themselves in situations where they have to shoot first and ask questions later.

The fault in your reasoning is that we support an officer defending himself with his weapon because the public in general has confidence that if the officer found himself in that situation a lot of other things were done first to make sure he didn't end up in that kind of kill or be killed situation, and he understood the ramifications of using his weapon.

In short, every other condition is not the same.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 131, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 129):
therefor in those two case its "always"

No, it doesn't. And that's your problem, not mine. I never said that they're "always" 20 miles away. I said they could be 20 miles away. Two completely and totally different meanings.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 129):
Got it !

So, you rather be dead. Your choice.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 129):
We all know you'd play hero and do otherwise, as is your prerogative, just not mine !

It's not even remotely close to playing "hero". It's about taking a stand for yourself and your family. Taking a stand between what's right. But no, you'd rather die in your own home and/or let criminals come and go in your house as they please. Nice. Suit yourself, if that's what gets you jiggy.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 125):
Anyway. that's me done in this thread.

Well, I thought you gave up on this thread. Change of heart, no?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 132, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):

I'm on the wife's iPad, and I'm having trouble with cut and paste.

You made comment that crime in general is in the rise in the US. The FBI begs to differ. Just google FBI crime statistics and you'll see that crime rates, including violent crime are down in the US. All this even though gun ownership rates have been going up for over a decade and shall issue concealed carry is available in the vast majority of states.

Now, I don't know if anyone has done a study to attempt and show a correlation between the dropping crime rates and the increased firearm ownership, but there does appear to be anecdotal evidence pointing that way.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 133, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
It isn't that self defense isn't allowed. It is that confronting and shooting is rarely the smart solution. Yet it is the default option to many, as we clearly see in this thread. Why I called it a mentality problem.

Ah, I get you know, this actually makes a lot of sense. I do agree it is better to hide when possible rather than confront. I can't really agree in this case because we don't know if the guy was going to the sister's house to barricade in with her and just ran into the son. Maybe he didn't believe her and wanted to go through the house to prove nothing was there (while bringing a gun, just in case.) We DON'T know that he just went to the house with the sole purpose of finding and killing the intruder. That would be the wrong response, IMO, but can we prove that is what he was doing??

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 132):
You made comment that crime in general is in the rise in the US. The FBI begs to differ. Just google FBI crime statistics and you'll see that crime rates, including violent crime are down in the US. All this even though gun ownership rates have been going up for over a decade and shall issue concealed carry is available in the vast majority of states.

         This is actually a huge point here, everyone needs to read this. Crimes have been going down consistently for decades. Media hype is a very big reason many people think it's going up. Don't have time now to get sources, sorry, but I was a criminal justice major and every class I took on this said the same thing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 134, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 129):
Quoting something (Reply 128):
Should someone still make it into my home, I'd call the cops and hide.

But the cops might be more than 20 miles away according to airframeAS

They can be 200 miles away. Burglars are thiefs, and not murderers. If a burglar/criminal wanted to kill you, then they would probably succeed because that murder would be planned, whereas you would be caught by surprise. Sure, they may try to injure you if you catch them red-handed, but that's why I would let them do their thing, hide and wait for the authorities. Or better yet, take preemptive measures to avoid ever getting into this kind of situation in the first place.

Hence my argument: If you need to kill someone that comes into your house, then you are not acting in self defense but in self justice. The same can be said about muggings. If a mugger is pointing a gun at you and demands your money, he already knows that he'll be shot the moment he even sees so much as a weapon. They either shoot, or will be shot.

I just can't think of any scenario where having a gun would make you safer, or let alone safe your life. Give them your money, and have the authorities and insurances get it back for you. And in the very rare scenario where someone actually wants to kill you, they'll kill you - unless you know of such a threat and have the police protect you and arrest the criminals.

If people are so scared of crime, why don't they just create more social fairness and equality? Crime is usually a product of poverty. It logically follows that getting rid of poverty equals at least a significant reduction in crime.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 135, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

Quoting something (Reply 134):
Burglars are thiefs, and not murderers.

Maybe in the UK. We just had a case a couple weeks ago in my home town where these guys broke into a house to steal things, was discovered, and as they were leaving they took a pot shot for some reason and so happened to hit the woman in the head, killing her. Burglars are often armed and may kill, at least over here. But yeah, for the most part, they just want to steal and get away, I'll give you that. I wouldn't take a chance if my sister said someone was in her house, I'd be over right away (no not to kill, trying to get her to safety. If I ran into the criminal on the way and I had to, of course I'd shoot, it would just be the last resort rather than leaving my sister's life to chance)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 136, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 132):
Now, I don't know if anyone has done a study to attempt and show a correlation between the dropping crime rates and the increased firearm ownership, but there does appear to be anecdotal evidence pointing that way.

Is there? From what I have seen firearm ownership has no measurable influence on crime.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):
We just had a case a couple weeks ago in my home town where these guys broke into a house to steal things, was discovered, and as they were leaving they took a pot shot for some reason and so happened to hit the woman in the head, killing her.

With one case anything can be proven  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):
I wouldn't take a chance if my sister said someone was in her house, I'd be over right away (no not to kill, trying to get her to safety. If I ran into the criminal on the way and I had to, of course I'd shoot, it would just be the last resort rather than leaving my sister's life to chance

Realistically, what do you think is most likely? That you save her where she could not have saved herself or that you become a victim? I say the later is much more likely.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 137, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2642 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):
Maybe in the UK

I've just never heard of anyone getting shot by a burglar before.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):
Burglars are often armed and may kill, at least over here

That would defy the logic of breaking into a house. You do this because it's dark, there are no cameras or witnesses and you can steal large values at a relatively small risk. The moment you turn a burglary into a homicide, a full blown investigation will be opened and you'll be doing life before you know it. If the average burglar wanted to take that risk, he'd be in a more lucrative business and rob banks.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):
We just had a case a couple weeks ago in my home town where these guys broke into a house to steal things, was discovered, and as they were leaving they took a pot shot for some reason and so happened to hit the woman in the head, killing her.

Tragic, no doubt. But there are just more questions to ask. Did she even lock her door, ie protect her house from being broken into? Why did she ''discover'' them and not just hid and waited for the cops to arrive? Would having a gun changed the outcome of the situation for her? If she can be killed by a ''pot shot'', I think she would have also been killed if she'd opened fire at them.

But that nonewithstanding.. she isn't the sheriff in town. Run away, hide and let the professionals do the work. If a storm knocks down powerlines, no one without the slightest knowledge of electricity would try to put them back up on their own because they understand the danger of it and that it requires a team of skilled, trained workers to do this. So why would they want to take killing someone into their own hands when all they realistically have to lose is money.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 138, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting something (Reply 134):
Burglars are thiefs, and not murderers


Interesting, so we know what is in the mind of every burglar and thief!!

My question is how do you know they are a burglar or thief and not a rapist or murderer. YOU DON'T. I will protect my home, period. If they were a burglar and thief then possible turning on lights or just showing a weapon would scare them off, but if they are in the second category, self defense may be the only option. I choose to protect myself and my family from either group. You may choose to run, hide or call police. Your option. But should the police not show up as quick as you would like and something bad happens, just know that you have the LEGAL option to own a weapon and protect what is rightfully yours.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 12
Reply 139, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 136):

The anecdotal evidence is that while gun ownership and carry permits have been going up across the country for the passed 15 or so years, violent crime has been going down.

Is there a statistical correlation? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if there is one.

Quoting something (Reply 134):

Burglars are thiefs, and not murderers.

So you're willing to bet your life on that? You're willing to bet that if you walk in on a burglar or a burglar enters your home while you're there, that you will not come to harm? You're willing to bet that someone who is breaking the law, will not take the next step?

You may be wiling to take that risk...I am not.

Quoting something (Reply 137):

I've just never heard of anyone getting shot by a burglar before.
That's because the crime would be considered robbery, home invasion, attempted murder or murder.

Quoting something (Reply 134):

I just can't think of any scenario where having a gun would make you safer, or let alone safe your life. Give them your money, and have the authorities and insurances get it back for you. And in the very rare scenario where someone actually wants to kill you, they'll kill you - unless you know of such a threat and have the police protect you and arrest the criminals.


If you're on Facebook, you can 'Like' NRA News for a week. Along with legislative news about firearms they will routinely post 'Armed Citizen' reports. These are sourced news stories that report actual events where a firearm owner/user prevented a crime.

[Edited 2012-10-04 12:40:46]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 140, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 138):
Interesting, so we know what is in the mind of every burglar and thief!!

It's not ''interesting '', it's established science.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 138):
My question is how do you know they are a burglar or thief and not a rapist or murderer.

My answer is that those situations don't exist. Murderers know their victims (why else would they want to murder them). They'd know if their potential victim had a gun.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 138):
I will protect my home, period.

Me too. By installing lockable windows, reinforced doors, motion sensors, lamps, surveillance cameras (I don't have or need those), alarm system etc.

Unlike you, I don't stop asking questions before I have answers. The question stands: Would stricter gun control make people less safe? Simply putting ''I will protect my home'' out there, is not an answer. It's an illusionary notion, that makes you feel in control of things and safe. But it does in no way even begin to examine real life situations.

So I am trying to think of various situations that people claim to need guns (for protection) in. And they'd lose in every situation I can think of so far. I am not even biased - I'd like to hear of situations/scenarios that would be any different.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 138):
You may choose to run, hide or call police. Your option. But should the police not show up as quick as you would like and something bad happens, just know that you have the LEGAL option to own a weapon and protect what is rightfully yours.

But what bad do you suppose would happen? They've broken into my house to steal things. So I let them steal things and retrieve them later.

Of course something bad can happen too. I could shoot someone I didn't mean to shoot. Or I could kill a human being.

You need to understand that a burglar breaks into your house to steal things. Not to kill you. If he broke into your house to kill you, you would be dead 10 minutes before you could even say the word ''gun''. Same situation in a mugging: If I'm pointing a gun at you, and I see you grab a weapon, I know you're going to shoot me so I have no other option but to shoot first.

I'm sure there are martial arts that could help you in those situations. But I don't see Americans taking those classes, so I must assume that they don't actually feel threatened but just like the idea of punishing a criminal personally. But that isn't self defense. That is uncivilized primitivity.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 141, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 139):
The anecdotal evidence is that while gun ownership and carry permits have been going up across the country for the passed 15 or so years, violent crime has been going down.

No, the anecdotal evidence is that many other events is the cause. Much different drug use mentality, social programs for kids and unemployed, better police enforcement, change in dealing with repeat offenders, etc.

Much of this is not politically correct but the scientific evidence is strong that they work and are less costly than the politically correct suggestions.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 139):
You may be wiling to take that risk...I am not.

But you're perfectly fine making yourself a target by confronting them...


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 142, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 139):
So you're willing to bet your life on that? You're willing to bet that if you walk in on a burglar or a burglar enters your home while you're there, that you will not come to harm? You're willing to bet that someone who is breaking the law, will not take the next step?

You may be wiling to take that risk...I am not.

This is just not what such a situation would look like. I would avoid even seeing those criminals. I would not confront them. What if there's three of them, but I think it's only two. I go to the kitchen to shoot the two guys I know of, and before I know it number three in the living room shoots me first.

I'd call the police, hide under my bed, jump and run out of the window and go to the neighbor's place. I just think it's ill advised to jump into the fire.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 139):
Quoting something (Reply 137):

I've just never heard of anyone getting shot by a burglar before.
That's because the crime would be considered robbery, home invasion, attempted murder or murder.

These things never happen here. Murderers are usually between two people/parties who have a problem with each other. There just aren't ''surprise killings''.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 139):
If you're on Facebook, you can 'Like' NRA News for a week. Along with legislative news about firearms they will routinely post 'Armed Citizen' reports. These are sourced news stories that report actual events where a firearm owner/user prevented a crime.

I'm not on Facebook. I am also sceptical of the objectivity of news posted by the NRA. It's not like they're an interest group..



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 143, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):

Sadly this is a good example of the mentality not working. The obvious solution to most people in other developed countries is to not turn a burglary in to a killing.

You want to talk about twisting and turning of facts? The father did not turn the burglary (if that indeed is what it was going to be) into a killing: the son did.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
It isn't that self defense isn't allowed. It is that confronting and shooting is rarely the smart solution.

Indeed it is generally not smart to confront a burglar yourself. However, that was not the case here.

Quoting something (Reply 128):
A man making up a story to avoid serving a life sentence sounds a little more plausible to me than his story.

That's nice. I'm sure you have years of learning and experience to back that tidbit up.

The fact is, unless the weapon was planted on the kid after the fact, there is no other conceivable scenario where the father would be in danger of prosecution based on what the police have said.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 130):
Yes. However we don't know if this is what happened in this situation. All we've heard about is the alleged knife lunge. We don't know if the kid was hiding and got the drop on the father, or if both were equally surprised by the other and both paniced.

The last scenario is the most plausible. However, that does not mean that the father was unjustified in his actions, nor does it mean the son was not legally liable for his actions.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 130):
You seem to have some resentment towards police officers.

Where did that come from?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 130):

In short, every other condition is not the same.

Except it is. You are describing the difference I pointed out, but every other condition was the same, and the difference you described is irrelevant, because if you replaced the father with a cop, and kept every other condition the same: the kid still winds up being shot, yet you somehow think that a cop is more justified than the civilian.

Quoting something (Reply 134):


I just can't think of any scenario where having a gun would make you safer, or let alone safe your life.

I can think of dozens, and have directly experienced one.

Quoting something (Reply 134):
Give them your money, and have the authorities and insurances get it back for you.

You're comparing apples to birthday cakes here.

Quoting something (Reply 142):

These things never happen here. Murderers are usually between two people/parties who have a problem with each other. There just aren't ''surprise killings''.

I think you'll find there are.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 144, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 143):
You want to talk about twisting and turning of facts? The father did not turn the burglary (if that indeed is what it was going to be) into a killing: the son did.

There you go with your twisting and turning.

The father most certainly made this into a killing. As things stand it is very likely it will hold up as justifiable.

It should be unquestionable that if the father had not gone out to confront the suspected intruder things would have played out differently. Would it had turned into a killing if the kid had managed to break in? We will never know. They are looking at his computer so there is a remote chance we will learn something about intent.

Why did the father raise the likelihood for the situation to become a killing? He apparently got close enough for the kid to attack him with a knife. What do you think would have happened if it had been someone with a gun instead? What if there had been several intruders? Clearly the confrontation of the intruder in that manner isn't a clever method.

I asked you earlier what you think would have happened if the sister had indicated to the intruder she was aware by turning on lights. Looking forward to hear your opinion.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 143):
Indeed it is generally not smart to confront a burglar yourself. However, that was not the case here.

Wasn't it? Then what was it? The sister called stating that someone was trying to break into her house. You actually think they expected anything but a burglary at that time? I'm convinced the father considered it a burglary attempt while he waited for the police to arrive.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 145, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2546 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 136):
Realistically, what do you think is most likely? That you save her where she could not have saved herself or that you become a victim? I say the later is much more likely.

I don't care. If my sister was had a 90% chance of surviving just fine and I had a 90% chance of getting blown away I'd still be there in a heartbeat

Quoting