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Netanyahu Buckles In Showdown With Iran  
User currently offlinemaxthrusta330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

There is an excellent editorial in the Financial Times, exposing the deeply flawed strategy and bullying tactics of Benjamin Netanyahu and his government with regard to their repetitive military threats against Iran. How shockingly arrogant it is for the leader of a tiny little country to attempt to dictate the foreign policy of a super power like the United States by trying to force the hand of the US just before a presidential election. I for one am delighted that Netanyahu's flawed warmongering strategy has backfired, however the simple fact that Netanyahu thought that he could force the hand of the US in such a way, surely raises questions about US sovereignty. It also truly defies logic:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c6592...e3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz27mJqKnWa

Obama's firm decisiveness and determination in refusing to bow to Netanyahu's demands for the US to commit to military action against Iran is honorable. Now that Netanyahu has been humbled by the US refusing to be dictated to by an "ally", he has effectively been forced to back down on his threats of a late 2012 military strike against Iran. Now that Netanyahu's finally tasted some humble pie, hopefully we won't have to hear so much "noise" from this odious little man.

We need to give peace a chance.

100 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3453 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3797 times:
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Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
We need to give peace a chance.

You can never put Peace and Netanyahu in the same phrase.   



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
There is an excellent editorial in the Financial Times

Google for the title of that article - clicking on the link asked me for $$$.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):
You can never put Peace and Netanyahu in the same phrase.

  

I really wonder if there will ever be a generation of young Israelis that is fed up with their foreign policy. If violence doesn't achieve the goal, use more violence. If intimidations do not work, use more of them. If sanctions do not work, push the UN for some more.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
Now that Netanyahu has been humbled by the US refusing to be dictated to by an "ally", he has effectively been forced to back down on his threats of a late 2012 military strike against Iran. Now that Netanyahu's finally tasted some humble pie, hopefully we won't have to hear so much "noise" from this odious little man.

Although I dislike BN, I dislike Ahmedinejad and the Iranian leadership even more; I think we also need to understand the Israeli mindset when it comes to people like Ahmedinejad. People of Netanyahu's parents generation will have heard him (Ahmedinejad) and thought "we've heard this before, haven't we, and nothing was done then, to stop another odious little man, until it was too late". We cannot underestimate the effect that the holocaust has and continues to have on the Jewish psyche, nor of course can we blame them for this. If I were Israeli, I'd be quite concerned; what would be the use of an Israeli PM who simply ignored such ramblings, particularly if there is evidence that the country he leads is building nuclear weapons. They simply can't take the chance.

I agree that Obama's line is, however, a very good one. He was not bowed to BN's request to draw a red line, but he has said that Iran will not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. I do also believe that BN must be very frustrated at seeing Romney's presidential bid go down the drain; Romney as US president would have been a gift to the Israelis, who've never really liked Obama anyway; Romney is a complete greenhorn on foreign policy and surrounded by the same neocons who pulled Bush II's strings, they'd have control of Romney's foreign policy in no time (if they hadn't drafted it already, which I suspect they had).

I realise that both of the above paragraphs may seem contradictory, but basically, my line would be, I don't like either BN or MA, but I dislike and distrust MA more. I think Obama is doing the right thing and I think that the policy of squeezing Iran through economic sanctions is already having an effect (even though the Iranians won't admit this, of course).


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3734 times:
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Kaitak pretty much sums it up. I will add

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
their repetitive military threats against Iran.

Who is threatening whom? BN is simply reacting to all the threats from MA. I would expect nothing less from my government if some nut case kept threatening our inhiliation.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
arrogant

When it comes to arrogance MA takes the cake!

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
flawed warmongering strategy

Again, BA was elected to protect his country and I believe he will do whatever it takes to do so. If an Adolf Hitler wanabe comes along and threatens the existence of Israel they are delusional if they don't think Israel is going to survive no matter what it needs to do. The last time the Jewish people waited around for the "approval" of the non-Jewish world for help, over 6 million died.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
refusing to bow to Netanyahu's demands

Nobody will ever know whether or not Obama has refused anything. Most situations like this are handled behind closed doors anyway and we will never know what is really going on. AND you can be assured that on the highest levels the Gulf Countries are well represented too. MA is just as big a threat to them it's just that, as usual, Israel becomes everyone's scapegoat.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
We need to give peace a chance.

Really, well, tell that to Ahmedinejad.  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
We need to give peace a chance.

Really, well, tell that to Ahmedinejad.  

Why does everyone assume he'd actually use a nuke? Minus that horribly out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemaxthrusta330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
Nobody will ever know whether or not Obama has refused anything.

We already do know, I'm confused by your comment - didn't you read the Financial Times article? Netanyahu wanted to force Obama's hand into committing to support a Israeli military strike against Iran - Obama refused to be dictated to by Netanyahu, and Netanyahu's bully boy tactics subsequently fell flat on their face. The whole world knows that Israel is a military lightweight without US support. Simply put, if the US refuses to support an Israeli attack on Iran, Israel is too weak to take on Iran on its own - the Israelis know that they'll get a good hiding  


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
we've heard this before, haven't we, and nothing was done then

You mean people getting second class citizen status, being rounded up in ghettos after their land and homes were stolen ?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
Who is threatening whom? BN is simply reacting to all the threats from MA. I would expect nothing less from my government if some nut case kept threatening our inhiliation.

Nothing less than yet another war ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19505 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Why does everyone assume he'd actually use a nuke? Minus that horribly out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

I don't think it's misquoted or out of context. I also don't think he actually believes that he could possibly succeed at such a project.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

I wonder why we the west haven't drawn a red line under Israel's own nuclear program, it would appear fair to me that if Iran isn't allowed nukes Israel shouldn't either.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Why does everyone assume he'd actually use a nuke? Minus that horribly out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

I don't think it's misquoted or out of context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...and_Israel#Translation_controversy



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19505 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...and_Israel#Translation_controversy

Yes, when he said that, I don't think he actually meant he was going to carpet-nuke Israel, but that his wish was for the nation and government of Israel to vanish and be replaced with something else.

If you are an Israeli, those two ends are not dissimilar.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):

Why does everyone assume he'd actually use a nuke?

A nuke means invading Iran becomes virtually unthinkable. This is their main purpose, securing themselves against military invasion. Actually using a nuke is suicide for the Iranian regime.
.
It is the immunity from invasion bought by a nuclear deterrent in Iran that REALLY sours Netanyahu on this topic. Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, Bill Kristol and Michael Ledeen picked the the wrong country to invade in their eternal quest to aggresively fight the enemies of Israel.


...this situation of a more vulnerable Israeli position is one of the many less advertised consequences of Bush's wars...

Pu


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
I wonder why we the west haven't drawn a red line under Israel's own nuclear program, it would appear fair to me that if Iran isn't allowed nukes Israel shouldn't either.

Indeed, Iran (and many other countries, should I add) wants some nukes because Israel has many.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Good for Obama, I know he's on edge and really knows that it's definitely in not just America's but the rest of the world's best interest to strike Iran. This will lead to WW3 and after all who wants to pay $10 a gallon
Look, Iran has signed the NPT Israel hasn't
Iran is a really peaceful country in the sense that they have not invaded any other country

But god Netanyahu has got stop this madness
And we as Americans have to fight Zionism or I truly believe it will be the end of us

I understand Obama has an election and is posturing but he can truly shake things up and leave a lasting legacy since he all but secured his second term

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):
You can never put Peace and Netanyahu in the same phrase.

Amen!

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
Who is threatening whom? BN is simply reacting to all the threats from MA. I would expect nothing less from my government if some nut case kept threatening our inhiliation.

Haha because he threatened to "Wipe Israel Off the map!" right?   



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19505 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
A nuke means invading Iran becomes virtually unthinkable.

It becomes a battle of wills. Do they nuke our troops and their own country? Or not...? And we have more nukes than they do.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3325 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Why does everyone assume he'd actually use a nuke? Minus that horribly out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

Which could actually mean Mr A was indirectly referring to a one-state solution: Palestine.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I don't think it's misquoted or out of context. I also don't think he actually believes that he could possibly succeed at such a project.

See above.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
I wonder why we the west haven't drawn a red line under Israel's own nuclear program, it would appear fair to me that if Iran isn't allowed nukes Israel shouldn't either.

I overall agree and I think Israel's nuclear arsenal sort of underlies the various terror acts going on at the margins: everyone understands that they cannot defeat Israel in a 'normal' war, so they resort to irritating Israel continually and hopefully goad them into doing something truly awful.

As for BN, I view him as the biggest threat to peace in the ME region. His own military seem to be very much against a strike. Yet he has the audacity to bite the hand that keeps Israel afloat.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2829 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
It also truly defies logic:

He's what I would call a school yard bully, but a bully who's to gutless to actually do any bullying himself, he get his mates to do it for him, and then appears to be blameless and covered in Teflon.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
Now that Netanyahu's finally tasted some humble pie, hopefully we won't have to hear so much "noise" from this odious little man.

It's a bit like a pimple on the end of your nose, you know, the one that takes ages to "mature" and "pop" just when you've been invited to a family reunion or the like. Everyone see's it !

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
If sanctions do not work, push the UN for some more.

And when all that fails, run to the POTUS and pull on his shirt tails.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
I think Obama is doing the right thing and I think that the policy of squeezing Iran through economic sanctions is already having an effect (even though the Iranians won't admit this, of course).

I generally agree with Obama, but not on this issue.

And I think, what you can safely say about the Iranians and sanctions is, that it will turn another generation against the west, that's all.

Sanction rarely have ANY positive outcome, either way.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
Who is threatening whom?

You don't know ?
Seems' quite clear to many

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
The last time the Jewish people waited around for the "approval" of the non-Jewish world for help, over 6 million died.

So what are you saying ?
You want to kill millions of Iranians, and perhaps millions of Israelis, and containment a large part of the earth, just to show otherwise ?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
MA is just as big a threat to them it's just that, as usual, Israel becomes everyone's scapegoat.

Um, where are all these other countries you claim to be threatened..... strangely, they seem to be silent.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Minus that horribly out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

How many times have we ALL been through this..... and they still continue to bring it up ad nausea !

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Indeed, Iran (and many other countries, should I add) wants some nukes because Israel has many.

And this is the entire crux of the matter. If its ok for some, then why not others ?
You just cant say "yes" to some and "no" to others. It is just impossible.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
And we as Americans have to fight Zionism or I truly believe it will be the end of us

  

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It becomes a battle of wills. Do they nuke our troops and their own country? Or not...? And we have more nukes than they do.

Ok, but we don't want to turn it into an arms race. Gee we've been there already.

[Edited 2012-09-30 00:54:26]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
The last time the Jewish people waited around for the "approval" of the non-Jewish world for help, over 6 million died.

That's not entirely true, that 6 million also included Roma, homosexuals, and political dissidents, I don't know why the world lets israel get away with claiming all holocaust victims were jews.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

What really spiked his guns was the complete lack of enthusiasm of the Chiefs Of Staff of the IDF, for an attack on Iran.
They, after all, would have to plan and implement an attack, would have to weigh up the pros and cons, likely Iranian response, international implications, the chance of anything more than a short term, limited, effect on the Iranian bomb project.
And they were deeply sceptical of the whole idea.

Also, Netty, with his not very well disguised push for the GOP in the 2012 election, has taken a political risk that he might well regret. To add to his attempts to bounce to the US into a massively risky policy.
In that sense, the USA could be forgiven for telling Netty, 'we pay your bills, butt out'.


User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
I don't know why the world lets israel get away with claiming all holocaust victims were jews.

Because they have a better PR machine.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Let us not forget that Bibi Netanyahu has to show a very aggressive policy as to the rest of the ME, and especially to Iran, due to Jewish history, internal Israeli politics and to keep his job. Ahmadinejad also plays an aggressive policy for Iranian pride and position in the ME/Islamic world for domestic Iranian consumption, to show that Iran will not accept Western control of their country, people and their oil.

As some others noted, I suspect there was serious negotiations between the USA and Israeli respective State Departments, between President Obama and PM Netanyahu including at least a 1 hour phone call the Friday before they both appeared before the UN to present carefully worded, firm but not angry presentation of support against possible nuke bomb development in Iran and their support of forces in Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian Territories against Israel. For several years it has been alleged that the USA and Israel have been involved in 'cyber war' as well assassinations of key scientists in Iran to disrupt nuke bomb development.

Hopefully some of the worst risks of a conflict has been reduced to a low simmer, but still I would not count out Israel doing something in Syria to cut off Iran's support of anti-Israeli forces there.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):

But god Netanyahu has got stop this madness
And we as Americans have to fight Zionism or I truly believe it will be the end of us

It would be amazing to see what would happen if somebody dug up concrete evidence proving once and for all that both the Zionists and Muslims were flat wrong about the origins and future of life on this planet (well, actually I believe we already have but that's another thread).

Their arguments against each other would be reduced to very practical ones like who owns what land etc. that at least have some sliver of a chance of being resolved rationally once the supernatural content is pared away. Or at least seen for what they are by a world that would be much less sympathetic to either side's case.

As it is, with both sides believing in divine support for their positions and the continuation of this struggle into eternity there can't possibly be compromise on earth.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
Their arguments against each other would be reduced to very practical ones like who owns what land etc. that at least have some sliver of a chance of being resolved rationally once the supernatural content is pared away

My analysis after decades of intense unbiased study (kidding) is that they really aren't using the "supernatural content" insofar as their war with each other goes.

Palestinians are pissed off because Israel was created at the end of WW2 without their permission, Muslims worldwide sympathise with them, and Israel's point is that they are a soveriegn nation formed by UN mandate no less.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):

Or at least seen for what they are by a world that would be much less sympathetic to either side's case.

      Yes!
Basically its the 1.5 billion Muslims versus ~300 million Americans/Israelis, with religion being the major bond for each side, in global terms. It is a little odd to me that Christians in America so forcefully back Israel...
.
and even if through some miracle (!) the 2 state solution comes about, what to do about Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock / Temple Mount is going to be a ...problem....

Pu

[first post with added animation!]

[Edited 2012-09-30 08:26:21]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3189 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
also included Roma, homosexuals, and political dissidents

Trying to marginalize the numbers of Jews murdered is just another way to try to de-legitimize the situation.

Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
to many

Many? You mean the HAND-FULL of the usual Jew-haters on this blog?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
strangely, they seem to be silent

Nothing strange about it. The Saudis and the other oil producing Gulf States are scared to death MA will do the same thing to them that Iraq did to Kuwait, but they don't have the balls to come right out and say it lest they appear to take a stand against their fellow Muslims. It is much easier to try to make Israel the "bad guy"----as usual. BUT, behind closed-doors, at the highest levels of government, you better believe they are working with the United States AND Israel because if the s#$t hits the fan, it will be the U.S. and Israel that will be expected to do all the "dirty-work" AS USUAL. (If the oil is to be protected, of course).

I think it's about time the Muslim nations of the Gulf showed some back-bone and stood-up to Ahmadenijad, draw their own "red-line" and show him who's boss! Instead of paving their streets with gold and flying around in golden flying palaces, the so call "royalty" should spend their money instead of ours if they need protection!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

Not worth a reply, as usual.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
Haha because he threatened to "Wipe Israel Off the map!" right?

Oh, let me guess, another Jew-hater right?  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5499 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
That's not entirely true, that 6 million also included Roma, homosexuals, and political dissidents, I don't know why the world lets israel get away with claiming all holocaust victims were jews.
Quoting johns624 (Reply 20):
Because they have a better PR machine.

Don't take this the wrong way, I respect the two of you here and what you post normally, but not this.

It's not "The Jews PR machine" or the world letting anyone "get away with" anything, it's that people like you two (obviously including many others, I am only singling you out because you are the ones that posted here) are uninformed and do not know history. You need to educate yourself instead just listening to others and echoing what they say and to make poorly chosen arguments and statements.

The truth is the Nazi's exterminated 11 million or more people, not "just" 6 million.

Quote:
over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' genocide of millions of people in other groups, including Romani, communists, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin. This was the most common definition from the end of WWII to the 1960s. Using this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 17 million people. Henry Friedlander argues that "the Nazis applied a consistent and inclusive policy of extermination only against three groups of human beings: the handicapped, Jews, and Gypsies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Quote:
Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictims.htm

Quote:
But Jews were not the only group singled out for persecution by Hitler’s Nazi regime. As many as one-half million Gypsies, at least 250,000 mentally or physically disabled persons, and more than three million Soviet prisoners-of-war also fell victim to Nazi genocide. Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, Social Democrats, Communists, partisans, trade unionists, Polish intelligentsia and other undesirables were also victims of the hate and aggression carried out by the Nazis.
http://www.auschwitz.dk/docu/faq.htm

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
Iran is a really peaceful country in the sense that they have not invaded any other country

LOL. They just pay proxies to do their dirty work.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Many? You mean the HAND-FULL of the usual Jew-haters on this blog?

I love how the Antisemitism club is swung. If you aren't in favor of Israel's existence, then...

Truth is, Israel needs to be razed and newly built elsewhere. One cannot deny that that state was born with a birth defect. It is a purulous wound that continues to haunt Middle East politics.

I like to cite this:

"The next year, a three-man delegation was sent to inspect the plateau. Its high elevation gave it a temperate climate, making it suitable for European settlement. However, the observers found a dangerous land filled with lions and other creatures. Moreover, it was populated by a large number of Maasai who did not seem at all amenable to an influx of Europeans."

It was a Jewish delegation visiting Uganda to look if the country would be suitable for a Jewish state.



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3209 times:
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Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
If you aren't in favor of Israel's existence, then...

News Flash-------Israel is a Jewish nation!  
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
Israel needs to be razed and newly built elsewhere.

Such as Switzerland perhaps?



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3453 posts, RR: 17
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3197 times:
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Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Nothing strange about it. The Saudis and the other oil producing Gulf States are scared to death MA will do the same thing to them that Iraq did to Kuwait, but they don't have the balls to come right out and say it lest they appear to take a stand against their fellow Muslims. It is much easier to try to make Israel the "bad guy"----as usual. BUT, behind closed-doors, at the highest levels of government, you better believe they are working with the United States AND Israel because if the s#$t hits the fan, it will be the U.S. and Israel that will be expected to do all the "dirty-work" AS USUAL. (If the oil is to be protected, of course).

Did not know you get a recording of those meetings.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Trying to marginalize the numbers of Jews murdered is just another way to try to de-legitimize the situation.

Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

He is just saying facts, there is no denial that a huge number of Jews lost there lives. Now if it's 6 or 11 million your choice, your problem was with Nazi Germany not the Palestinians, why you did not create Israel in Germany?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Oh, let me guess, another Jew-hater right?  
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Many? You mean the HAND-FULL of the usual Jew-haters on this blog?
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

Here we go again, those who do not agree with you are always anti Semite, boring.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Instead of paving their streets with gold

Where? I could use some gold.

[Edited 2012-09-30 10:10:24]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 23):
My analysis after decades of intense unbiased study (kidding) is that they really aren't using the "supernatural content" insofar as their war with each other goes.

I agree with you, and with the rest of your post that it is the bystanders lining up behind their favorite team that will preclude a rational solution to this mess!


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
That's not entirely true, that 6 million also included Roma, homosexuals, and political dissidents, I don't know why the world lets israel get away with claiming all holocaust victims were jews.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. There were 6 million JEWS killed during the Holocaust. If you were to add up the Roma, homosexuals, dissidents, gypsies, etc, there were 9 million of them killed. The Jews were the largest group killed because Hitler wanted the total annihilation of the Jewish people. Thank goodness he failed.

But to the topic of the thread...how has Netanyahu "buckled?" Has he said that he will not strike Iran? No, he hasn't. What then? He failed to get support from the US and the global community at this time. I don't consider that buckling. He wanted to try to force Obama's hand and failed...doesn't mean he buckled. By my interpretation of the term, to buckle would be to give in to pressure. Netanyahu did not. He has never taken the possibility of a unilateral strike off the table. To me, to buckle means to pretty much say "Aw, $%^& it," and give up. Can someone PLEASE show me how Netanyahu has given up on Iran?

So...he might not yet have international support. Things can change very quickly.

I personally hope nothing happens with Iran until February, as I'll be in Israel in December-January.

Marc


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3453 posts, RR: 17
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3175 times:
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Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
So...he might not yet have international support. Things can change very quickly.

Those nuclear sites in Iran are deep inside mountains and underground, only a nuclear strike might manage to destroy them, i do not see how Bibi can get an international support for a nuclear holocaust.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
out of context, misquoted "wipe Israel off the map line"

Not worth a reply, as usual.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
Haha because he threatened to "Wipe Israel Off the map!" right?

Oh, let me guess, another Jew-hater right?  

Jew hater?! Are you kidding me!?

I am VERY pro-Israel. They've had a tough ride and I sympathize for them. A good friend of mine is in the IDF. But just because I'm pro-Israel doesn't mean I'm stuck on auto-pilot... I have a right to disagree with them. I think their current course of action is flawed and is really hurting their (and the US's) standing in the world.

I also feel for the Palestinian people. I think the Israeli government's actions are legitimately meant to keep the Israelis safer but I think they've gone down a bad road doing it, one that just breeds more resentment.

Because I am pro-Israel, I feel that I should call out their behavior when I think it's very destructive and will lead to bad things for them. Unconditional support is a terrible idea in any scenario. I guess if that makes me a "Jew hater" I'll take that over being a "Jew lover who encourages them to get into a war and have thousands/millions of people killed"



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 32):
Those nuclear sites in Iran are deep inside mountains and underground, only a nuclear strike might manage to destroy them,

Actually, just burying them for a short time would be a significant setback, although not program ending.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Trying to marginalize the numbers of Jews murdered is just another way to try to de-legitimize the situation.

The problem is just because the Germans had a good crack at exterminating all the jews in Europe did not give the rest of the world the right to force a homeland form them on the Palestinians.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
Moreover, it was populated by a large number of Maasai who did not seem at all amenable to an influx of Europeans."

I'm surprised the same bunnies though the Palestinians would have more amenable to an influx of Europeans, turns out they didn't do there homework very well.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
The Jews were the largest group killed because Hitler wanted the total annihilation of the Jewish people. Thank goodness he failed.

Hitler also wanted total annihilation of the Roma and he damn near accomplished it, from all that I have read a fr larger percentage of Roma were exterminated than jews, the problem is the Roma didn't have a voice nor a bunch of wealthy people of the same religion around the world rooting for them.

The entire problem in the Middle East comes back to the establishment of Israel, had this not happened I very much doubt we would be having this discussion about whether or not Iran should be allowed the bomb. The creation of israel was a huge mistake and in hindsight probably the single worst decision of the last century.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3453 posts, RR: 17
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3150 times:
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Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
Actually, just burying them for a short time would be a significant setback, although not program ending.

So, endangering a WWIII just for a delay action? Not sure i like this choice.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8219 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
How shockingly arrogant it is for the leader of a tiny little country to attempt to dictate the foreign policy of a super power like the United States by trying to force the hand of the US just before a presidential election.

I believe Netanyahu's actions were as much an effort to help Romney as it was to push Obama. It is clearly in Netanyahu's interest to have a President Etch-A-Sketch in office, especially when compared to Obama.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
How shockingly arrogant it is for the leader of a tiny little country to attempt to dictate the foreign policy of a super power like the United States by trying to force the hand of the US just before a presidential election.

It was all politics IMO and it clearly didn't work, except for the militant right in the US who would go for another ME War under the thinnest of circumstances.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
Romney as US president would have been a gift to the Israelis, who've never really liked Obama anyway

First I believe that there are a lot of responsible Israelis who do like Obama. Look at those who are not totally militant and you see those who understand that Obama has supported Israel.

In terms of Romney, he might be a gift to Netanyahu and others who are excessively militant, but in terms of Israel as a whole he would be in uninformed disaster.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 6):
The whole world knows that Israel is a military lightweight without US support.

Israel has obviously benefitted from the trillions we have provided to them over the years, but the reality is that their troops and leaders can be explosive and powerful if there is actually a war.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 6):
Simply put, if the US refuses to support an Israeli attack on Iran, Israel is too weak to take on Iran on its own

They would not do anything stupid (like we did in Iraq) but I can see them hitting selected targets with precision.

IIRC, Ahmadinejad is ending his time in office as he is only allowed to serve two terms. (   )

It is more important, IMO, to focus on where Iran will go after Ahmadinejad leaves.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
It is more important, IMO, to focus on where Iran will go after Ahmadinejad leaves.

Probably the same direction as long as the same Ayatollahs keep running things



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemaxthrusta330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):

Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

Change the record will you... I like many others am sick of people being labeled "anti-semites" simply because they say something about Israel that pro-Israeli's dislike. Stop with the victim card already, it is old, tired, pretentious and makes people who try to use it look ridiculously DESPERATE TO HIDE BEHIND SOMETHING. It is no longer possible to convince people by attempting to use the logic of "we were victims - if you pick on us you are evil" it is pathetic.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
He wanted to try to force Obama's hand and failed...doesn't mean he buckled. By my interpretation of the term, to buckle would be to give in to pressure. Netanyahu did not.

Simply put - Netanyahu tired to call Obama's and the worlds bluff by threatening to launch a military attack on Iran. Note the time frame for such an attack was widely reported as being likely to take place before the US Presidential elections in November 2012. After Netanyahu threw a hissyfit    due to being unable to manipulate Obama and the Unites States government into obeying his commands in supporting a near term military strike on Iran, he announced to the world in his recent UN address that the time frame for a possible attack on Iran had suddenly switched from being "imminent" to being at least 6-9 months into the future. There lies the "Buckling". Netanyahu's flip flopping around clearly shows that his previous claims regarding Iran's civilian nuclear energy program lacked any basis in fact, because if they did have a basis in fact, and Israel was genuinely concerned about it's "existence" he wouldn't flip flop on such a serious issue. So to cut it short - he tired to call the US President's bluff, he failed miserably, and he conveniently extended the time frame for a possible attack on Iran. He buckled.

Do yourself a favor and come to terms with the FACT that Benjamin Netanyahu is an abrasive, obnoxious, paranoid, warmongering, psychopathic cretin (or cretan, as in Cretanyahu) who would be scared to even look at Iran on the map, let alone attack it, if it weren't for US backing. Without US backing Israel is nothing. The fact that US President stood firm and refused to be manipulated, causing the Israeli Prime Minister to BUCKLE, exposes the weakness of Israel's very foundations.

Is it not bewildering that the government of an entity that itself was founded as a result of the "suffering victims" of Europe's Jewish community during WWII, is now threatening to attack a nearby country, based on the mistranslation of a speech? If this plot was presented as a movie script in Hollywood it would be laughed out the door! That's the amazing thing - the Israeli case for wanting to attack Iran is absolutely ridiculous, and yet the genuinely amazing thing is that more people don't laugh in Netanyahu's face once he starts spouting his tired old venom on Iran. Everyone knows, including the Israeli's themselves, that they will get a hiding of biblical proportions if they try to take on Iran single-handedly. So what do they do? They play the "victim" of course! They dust off that embarrassingly tired old act as part of a pathetic, feeble and cringe-worthy attempt to rally international, particularly US support for a baseless attack on Iran. Disgraceful.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3075 times:
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Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
Did not know you get a recording of those meetings.

So you truly believe things such as that never happen? Seriously?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
Here we go again

Yes, you ARE an anti-semite, that is your right. Own it!

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
Can someone PLEASE show me how Netanyahu has given up on Iran

Thankyou!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
give the rest of the world the right to force a homeland form them on the Palestinians.

Since you are obviously in need of a history lesson let me advise you that you can pick-up a world history book at any library and see for yourself that the British offered the Palestinians a much larger and fertile piece of land than they offered the Jews. They offered the Jews an arrid desert. The big difference was that the Jews took the offer and the Palestinians didn't because their Arab bretheren convinced them to hold off until they could push the Jews into the sea and then everybody could partake of the spoils. Well, oopsie, it didn't work. It is not the fault of the Jewish people that the Palestinians "bet the wrong horse" or that for years thereafter they sought out terrorists to represent them. Why was there no whining and crying when the now deceased King of Jordan massacred Palestinians by the thousands back in 1970 and pushed them out of Jordan? Because he got sick of their terrorism as well.
Now that is documented FACT.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
Change the record will you... I like many others am sick of people being labeled "anti-semites" simply because they say something about Israel that pro-Israeli's dislike. Stop with the victim card already, it is old, tired, pretentious and makes people who try to use it look ridiculously DESPERATE TO HIDE BEHIND SOMETHING. It is no longer possible to convince people by attempting to use the logic of "we were victims - if you pick on us you are evil" it is pathetic.

You ARE an anti-semite-------own it. It's o.k. you are entitled to your opinion just like everybody else. Clearly you could also use some anger-management sessions.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
Do yourself a favor and come to terms with the FACT that Benjamin Netanyahu is an abrasive, obnoxious, paranoid, warmongering, psychopathic cretin (or cretan, as in Cretanyahu) who would be scared to even look at Iran on the map, let alone attack it, if it weren't for US backing

This rant just proves to me that when you posted this thread you had no other purpose that to stir-up anti-Israel resentments.
I am so sorry for you and all the other haters. It must be terrible to go through life with all this poison built-up in your system. Pity.


As I said before, Netanyahu is doing what he was elected to do------protect Israel. So be it!

Am chai Yisroel!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2385 posts, RR: 21
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
Truth is, Israel needs to be razed and newly built elsewhere. One cannot deny that that state was born with a birth defect. It is a purulous wound that continues to haunt Middle East politics.

Or maybe Israels neighbours should just learn to accept the existence of the jewish state. Many European countries have lost big territories during wars but have moved on since anyway.
I do think that a two state solution where Palestine will be created would be the best solution though.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):

the British offered the Palestinians a much larger and fertile piece of land than they offered the Jews.

Is there a reason why the people then living in Southwest Asia should respect the British judgment on who should live where?
or
put another way,
Why does the fact the British wanted a Jewish homeland mean the Palestinians should accept their judgment?
.
I am not trying to pick sides, I am trying to understand your side.

thanks

Pu
Btw, your historical narrative seems accurate enough ...but why is it expected that the Arabs should honour British wishes?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3453 posts, RR: 17
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3053 times:
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Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Yes, you ARE an anti-semite, that is your right. Own it!

And who are you to decide what i am or to try to run somebody else life. Just another person who when he can not find a response you start accusations and name calling. Again this is so boring to put nicely. Again i dare you to prove that i am an anti-Semite. I am anti Israel that i confess, so don't confuse the two.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
This rant just proves to me that when you posted this thread you had no other purpose that to stir-up anti-Israel resentments.
I am so sorry for you and all the other haters. It must be terrible to go through life with all this poison built-up in your system. Pity.

So now we are not allowed to be anti Israel? Nobody needs to stir anti-Israel resentments the actions of the leaders of Israel does that.
I do not go about my life hating somebody or a country just for the sake of it, there actions do create that feeling, since 1948 Israel has done nothing so i could not hate them.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Netanyahu is doing what he was elected to do------protect Israel. So be it!

Honestly don't you think peace is the best solution to protect Israel?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
So you truly believe things such as that never happen? Seriously?

I was just wondering how do you know what is said behind closed doors. Seriously.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8121 posts, RR: 26
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Oh where to start?

Quoting pu (Reply 23):
It is a little odd to me that Christians in America so forcefully back Israel...

Yes, especially since many of them were so busy being genuinely anti-Jewish just a couple generations ago. Ask Sandy Koufax and Al Rosen what kind of disgusting jeers they routinely received as openly Jewish major league baseball players who declined to play on the high holidays.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

This is a bit over the top. I'm Jewish and have no qualms with what anybody is saying in this thread aside from factual inaccuracies.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
The problem is just because the Germans had a good crack at exterminating all the jews in Europe did not give the rest of the world the right to force a homeland form them on the Palestinians.

Have to look at the context of the time. The British had lost their grip on the colonized world and were struggling with postwar reconstruction, the UN was newly-created and coming to grips with its lack of ability to do anything beyond advisory level policy-setting, and the US was still a hotbed of anti-semitic sentiment where behind closed doors many policymakers were hoping the American Jewish diaspora would start to relocate.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
They dust off that embarrassingly tired old act as part of a pathetic, feeble and cringe-worthy attempt to rally international, particularly US support for a baseless attack on Iran.

Right-wing Israeli politicians do overplay the victim card, don't speak out about the embarassing histrionics of the Orthodox settlers, and yada yada yada...but that doesn't change the situation that is *entirely separate* from their behavior, which is: what is anyone going to do about a nuclear-capable Iran? The entire region is not on board with this prospect, particularly the majority Sunni states like Saudi Arabia, that have their own demographic challenges afoot if Shia Iran suddenly becomes much more powerful. You have to look at the big picture beyond Israel. A nuclear-armed Iran is intolerable not for Israel's sake, but because it destabilizes the entire region - which nobody wants. Not to mention that the Iranians have provided known assistance to terrorist groups and adding fissile materials to the mix is probably not the best idea.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
Do yourself a favor and come to terms with the FACT that Benjamin Netanyahu is an abrasive, obnoxious, paranoid, warmongering, psychopathic cretin (or cretan, as in Cretanyahu) who would be scared to even look at Iran on the map, let alone attack it, if it weren't for US backing.

Or come to terms with the fact that he and his loose coalition are trying to retain power - and this is one of the issues they are using to do so. That's how realpolitik works.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
The fact that US President stood firm and refused to be manipulated, causing the Israeli Prime Minister to BUCKLE, exposes the weakness of Israel's very foundations.

Well not really if you consider Israeli politics the last 20 years have been a revolving door of changing leaders, scandals, larger than life populism, and failed coalitions. While the Knesset is pretty consistent you never have an Israeli prime minister singing the same tune for long. Bibi criticizes Obama on one hand while his Defense Minister and ex-PM Ehud Barak sings his praises on the other. This is business as usual in Israeli politics - not a sign of weak foundations.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
you ARE an anti-semite
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
You ARE an anti-semite

Dude, do you even know what that means? Simply disagreeing with the way the Israeli government does things doesn't make someone an anti-Semite.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Clearly you could also use some anger-management sessions.

Oh the irony

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 43):
Honestly don't you think peace is the best solution to protect Israel?

   Probably is the least anti-Semitic stance someone can take, honestly



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 28):
Such as Switzerland perhaps?

Surely you are in need of a history lesson. Could you point out some similarities between Israel and Switzerland?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Since you are obviously in need of a history lesson let me advise you that you can pick-up a world history book at any library and see for yourself that the British offered the Palestinians a much larger and fertile piece of land than they offered the Jews. They offered the Jews an arrid desert. The big difference was that the Jews took the offer and the Palestinians didn't because their Arab bretheren convinced them to hold off until they could push the Jews into the sea and then everybody could partake of the spoils.



Why would the Palestinians ever accept such an "offer"?

Perhaps in this manner: "I need to have your home, and I am going to have it. Though, I don't want you to be homeless, so I offer you half of your home. Consider it wisely. You could end up homeless."

The British made a serious error, and that was the unrestricted movement of Jews into Palestine. When enough Jews where there, the hands of the British - and those of the UN - were tied. They had no alternative left, they had to distribute the land between the Arabs and the Jews in some manner.

The Irgun and the Stern gang then bombed the British out of the country.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 41):
Or maybe Israels neighbours should just learn to accept the existence of the jewish state. Many European countries have lost big territories during wars but have moved on since anyway.
I do think that a two state solution where Palestine will be created would be the best solution though.

A two state solution is already impossible. It is highly improbable that Israel would ever allow a viable Palestinian state beside it - especially one that can stand on its own during an armed conflict with Israel. The only solution I see is one state called Israel, with all the inhabitants having equal rights. But it is obvious how democratic such a state will be if the Jewish character of the country is to be maintained.



David

[Edited 2012-09-30 15:43:03]

[Edited 2012-09-30 16:19:58]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3010 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
Oh where to start?

Exactly what I thought when I waded into this one!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
I'm Jewish and have no qualms

Nor should you. BUT, there is a difference between criticizing Israel and DEMONIZING her which the haters don't seem to, or care to get.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
the US was still a hotbed of anti-semitic sentiment where behind closed doors many policymakers were hoping the American Jewish diaspora would start to relocate.

  

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
the situation that is *entirely separate* from their behavior, which is: what is anyone going to do about a nuclear-capable Iran? The entire region is not on board with this prospect, particularly the majority Sunni states like Saudi Arabia, that have their own demographic challenges afoot if Shia Iran suddenly becomes much more powerful. You have to look at the big picture beyond Israel. A nuclear-armed Iran is intolerable not for Israel's sake, but because it destabilizes the entire region - which nobody wants. Not to mention that the Iranians have provided known assistance to terrorist groups and adding fissile materials to the mix is probably not the best idea.

   Certainly a motivation for the leader of ANY surrounding nation to do whatever it deems necessary to protect itself.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
This is business as usual in Israeli politics - not a sign of weak foundations.

Oh, thank you!

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
Could you point out some similarities between Israel and Switzerland?

Clearly something got lost in my sarcasim.  />
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
A two state solution is already impossible. It is highly improbable that Israel would ever allow a viable Palestinian state beside it - especially one that
lobs rockets into it nearly daily as the current Palestinians do.   

Interesting that not one of youz guys had a comment to make about the Black September 1970 slaughter of Palestinians by the Jordanians. So, if the Israelis retailiate against terrorists they are the bad guys, but of Jordan does it its o.k.?
The good old double-standard, right?



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2578 posts, RR: 7
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Surely there has to be some type of corollary to Godwin's Law that covers lobbing out the tiresome bleating of "you're an anti-semite!!!" or "you're a jew-hater!!!" everytime someone dares to criticize Israel.  

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
So, if the Israelis retailiate against terrorists they are the bad guys, but of Jordan does it its o.k.?
The good old double-standard, right?

I don't think anyone on this forum is defending any slaughter. You do realize that there are NOT just 2 sides to this issue... someone doesn't have to be 100% pro-Israel/they can do no wrong nor do they have to be 100% against Israel/suicide attacks are ok



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

It's in fact far easier to be against the Israeli government, since there is actually one. It has an opposition of course, but still, it has been elected in fair elections. For the Palestinians, things are more blurry.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8121 posts, RR: 26
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
BUT, there is a difference between criticizing Israel and DEMONIZING her which the haters don't seem to, or care to get.

I don't really see any demonization in this thread though. Well-deserved criticism in more respects than not.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 50):
It's in fact far easier to be against the Israeli government, since there is actually one. It has an opposition of course, but still, it has been elected in fair elections. For the Palestinians, things are more blurry.

Both the Israeli and Palestinian officialdom basically suck. But that's my opinion.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
IIRC, Ahmadinejad is ending his time in office as he is only allowed to serve two terms. ( )

It is more important, IMO, to focus on where Iran will go after Ahmadinejad leaves.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
It is more important, IMO, to focus on where Iran will go after Ahmadinejad leaves.

Probably the same direction as long as the same Ayatollahs keep running things

Ayatollah Ali Larijani (who may be a candidate for President in the next election) has publicly stated that Iran is going to move from fundamentalism to pragmatism, from confrontational policies to practical ones. I can only hope he gets elected.

Saw Fareed's interview with Mr A this AM. Ahmedinajad sounded much less strident in his responses to questions than any previous interview I've seen. Possibly due to seeing his wild ride coming to an end soon.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 39):
Just the usual level of anti-semitism that goes on with this blog.

Change the record will you... I like many others am sick of people being labeled "anti-semites" simply because they say something about Israel that pro-Israeli's dislike. Stop with the victim card already, it is old, tired, pretentious and makes people who try to use it look ridiculously DESPERATE TO HIDE BEHIND SOMETHING. It is no longer possible to convince people by attempting to use the logic of "we were victims - if you pick on us you are evil" it is pathetic.

     

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
Here we go again

Yes, you ARE an anti-semite, that is your right. Own it!

How can you call him an anti-semite when it's possible some of his good friends are Arabs ?      

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
A two state solution is already impossible. It is highly improbable that Israel would ever allow a viable Palestinian state beside it - especially one that can stand on its own during an armed conflict with Israel. The only solution I see is one state called Israel, with all the inhabitants having equal rights. But it is obvious how democratic such a state will be if the Jewish character of the country is to be maintained.

1 - Perhaps the single state might be called Palestine ?

2 - If there is a one-state solution, what does Israel do when the Muslim population outnumbers the Jewish population ? This will happen in Israel/Palestine actually fairly soon. The "revenge of the cradle".



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):

Oh, let me guess, another Jew-hater right?

You're pathetic, what are you trying to turn this thread into with such racist name calling?
Were having a spirited, but civil debate here...there will always be opposing viewpoints

Just lower than low....seriously...how dare you?



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
You ARE an anti-semite-------own it. It's o.k. you are entitled to your opinion just like everybody else. Clearly you could also use some anger-management sessions.

So are Israeli citizens who are against an attack anti-Semitic as well? Sorry to break it to you, but Israel has many political parties and they don't all agree, yet when an American says that they don't agree with something that Israel does, they're anti-Semitic. That's like saying that if you don't like something that Italy or Ireland do, you're anti-Catholic.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
LOL. They just pay proxies to do their dirty work.

Like the US paid the Afghan Mujahideens in the 80's and West buddies' known as Qatar and KSA pay other nutjobs nowadays.

Everybody plays that game.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2889 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 32):

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
So...he might not yet have international support. Things can change very quickly.

Those nuclear sites in Iran are deep inside mountains and underground, only a nuclear strike might manage to destroy them, i do not see how Bibi can get an international support for a nuclear holocaust.

There are all kinds on non-nuclear options for that. Let's not get carried away.

In any case, an attack is unlikely to happen.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 55):

Like the US paid the Afghan Mujahideens in the 80's and West buddies' known as Qatar and KSA pay other nutjobs nowadays.

Everybody plays that game.

Let's not get started on the US. Part of why I have little patience for Americans who wish to tell the Israelis what to do (aside from the fact that we really have no concept of being in their shoes), is that fact that this country itself is built on territory that was confiscated, stolen from, fill-in-the-blank an entire series of tribes who are virtually without existence now... And that's in addition to the more modern contradictions you bring up. Our history is full of that.

So yes, you're right, we all have a lot of dirty laundry here. It is my hope that the next regime in Iran is as Western Friendly as they claim they will be. But equal so that we actually make an effort to receive that as well. It would be tragic to have a truly pragmatic regime installed only to have the US continue its embargo (to a country that's a good deal less theocratic already than a few in the neighborhood that we do a lot of business with, no less).



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2880 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 40):
Since you are obviously in need of a history lesson let me advise you that you can pick-up a world history book at any library and see for yourself that the British offered the Palestinians a much larger and fertile piece of land than they offered the Jews. They offered the Jews an arrid desert.

Why should the British have offered the Palestinians land which was already theirs? Maybe you should read the book 'The Arabs'. What right did the British have to give away any Palestinian land to the jews.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
Have to look at the context of the time.

Maybe it's time the world grew a pair and fixed the Palestinian problem once and for all, by that I mean imposing an embargo on Israel until they move back to there originally allotted borders, if an embargo doesn't work maybe we should sort it out with force and I believe the israelie nuclear arsenal should be removed from the country, that would go a long way to resolving all the middle easts problems.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

I do not support theocratic states in general... however... I think this is right.

"Israel has long crossed nuclear red line: Iran's Vahidi

“If having nuclear bomb is crossing the red line, the Zionist regime [of Israel], which has dozens of nuclear warheads and various kinds of weapons of mass destruction, has crossed the red line years ago and should be dealt with,” Vahidi said on Saturday.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09...-has-long-crossed-red-line-vahidi/

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
Clearly something got lost in my sarcasim. />

Sorry, but I took this as a honest challenge. I'm still convinced that Israel should be razed and newly built somewhere. This would give them a fresh start - and even one without the Holocaust looming in their minds. An even better solution would be to recognize that no religion needs its own state or country.

The Vatican is basically a joke. All my life I saw the Vatican as a tourist magnet. But that "country" (2 popes per square kilometer) is rightfully a weak one, with no real power in the world - except over those who believe in a certain religion.

Among Jews, there is a lively debate if there should be a Jewish state or a State of Jews. Until the 1920ies, among the mainstream rabbis in Europe there was a consensus that Jews should not seek their own country.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
lobs rockets into it nearly daily as the current Palestinians do.

And how much success do these Al-Quassam rockets have?

23 dead until now, one among them a Thai national.

The IDF should use their helicopter gunships against cars owned by Israelis. They kill a lot more Israelis.

On a more earnest side note, I wonder how Israelis think about their sacrifices in WW II. To me, it seems like whining - during the Warsaw ghetto uprising, 13'000 civilians, many of them Jews, died. Today, retaliatory strikes are mounted when some Israeli die by crude rocket attacks.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 51):
Both the Israeli and Palestinian officialdom basically suck. But that's my opinion.

 checkmark 

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 52):
1 - Perhaps the single state might be called Palestine ?

This might not find a favour with the Jewish.  

It could have two official names, Palestine and Israel, so they would not have to use "Former British Mandate Zone in Palestine".  
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 52):
2 - If there is a one-state solution, what does Israel do when the Muslim population outnumbers the Jewish population ? This will happen in Israel/Palestine actually fairly soon. The "revenge of the cradle".

Exactly. And the more orthodox Jews beginning terror attacks on a secular or neutral government is a real possibility. Settlers in the West Bank already use force to "defend" against the IDF dismantling outposts. They have seceded from Israel, they only take from the Israeli government which favors them, and give nothing in return. Compulsory military service for all? No, we've got to serve G'd. Work? Nah, to study the Torah is G'd's will.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 58):

True words. Thank you.



David

[Edited 2012-10-01 03:23:29]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 59):
“If having nuclear bomb is crossing the red line, the Zionist regime [of Israel], which has dozens of nuclear warheads and various kinds of weapons of mass destruction, has crossed the red line years ago and should be dealt with,” Vahidi said on Saturday.

Too right, we are in accord Madame, one also wonders why Israel has the need of ICBM's which can deliver those nukes which they have all the way to contintial USA. The Jericho III has an 11,500km range, Iran isn't that far away, that is a worry for the rest of the world IMO, someone needs to draw a red line over this development.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):
The Jericho III has an 11,500km range, Iran isn't that far away, that is a worry for the rest of the world IMO, someone needs to draw a red line over this development.

I've plotted the ranges of the Jericho I, II and III missiles and the Shavit satellite launcher using the lower estimates I've found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_%28missile%29

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=500km%4...tlv%0D%0A7800km%40tlv&MS=wls&DU=mi

Is Israel really that trustworthy?      

Who are they defending against if you take these ranges as the basis of your reasoning?

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8506 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
How shockingly arrogant it is for the leader of a tiny little country to attempt to dictate the foreign policy of a super power like the United States

Well Israel has been doing it successfully for quite some years now...


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 56):
It is my hope that the next regime in Iran is as Western Friendly as they claim they will be. But equal so that we actually make an effort to receive that as well. It would be tragic to have a truly pragmatic regime installed only to have the US continue its embargo (to a country that's a good deal less theocratic already than a few in the neighborhood that we do a lot of business with, no less).

There used to be a pragmatic government in Iran, until they touched the West's oil interest. Then they got overthrown to put the Sha in power, and the rest is history.

But yeah, the US and British decision track record in the region isn't particularly stellar and full of short-sighted, knee jerk reactions and decisions.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Netanyahu will really be all alone if he doesn't strike and force Obama's hand by the election..

Once Obama locks his second term up....he won't do squat!



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2591 posts, RR: 17
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2646 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 52):
Ayatollah Ali Larijani (who may be a candidate for President in the next election) has publicly stated that Iran is going to move from fundamentalism to pragmatism, from confrontational policies to practical ones. I can only hope he gets elected.

I´ve also read that the old pragmatist Rafsanjani (spelling?) is back in the race, evrn though both his son and his daughter have been arrested by the police (under Ahmedinejad) for having participated in the protests of two years ago and attempts by Ahmedinejad´s crowd to silence him.
It seems that many Iranians have enough of the fundametalists (unfortunately represented by the religious lwader Khameni)

Jan


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 56):
There are all kinds on non-nuclear options for that. Let's not get carried away.

Other than cyberwarfare, what ? And several of the nuclear sites are now "off the grid" in terms of cyberwarfare.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 56):
Let's not get started on the US. Part of why I have little patience for Americans who wish to tell the Israelis what to do

I thought it was the Israeli government trying to dictate to the US.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 59):
"Israel has long crossed nuclear red line: Iran's Vahidi

“If having nuclear bomb is crossing the red line, the Zionist regime [of Israel], which has dozens of nuclear warheads and various kinds of weapons of mass destruction, has crossed the red line years ago and should be dealt with,” Vahidi said on Saturday.

Israel's arsenal is more like 200, and they "crossed the red line" about 40 years ago.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
The IDF should use their helicopter gunships against cars owned by Israelis. They kill a lot more Israelis.

        



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2385 posts, RR: 21
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 66):

Excellent idea, but you missed a few spots     


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 66):

How can you wish for a nuclear attack on some of us humans?

"Problem solved?"

Are you serious?

What have they done to you to wish them such fate?

Such a horrible thought... So ugly! It's chilling... and truly shocking!

I guess for you it's OK just as long as you are not there?

 Wow!    



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 70):

Never mind, his plan will also solve another great problem: Our dependence on fossil fuels. 



Signed,


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2481 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Never have such a handfull of anti-semites validated my opinions so thoroughly as on this thread!
Thak you all very much! 

Now, on to better things-----for the Iranian's at least--------here is a link to a very positive thing going on for the Iranian people:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10...caust-history-online-for-iranians/

I'm sure this story will really "warm" all those cold hearts!  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

I guess Jews/Israelis can do no harm then. They're all little angels.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7113 posts, RR: 57
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Imperial - i for one am not anti Semite, but anti idiot.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 72):
Never have such a handfull of anti-semites validated my opinions so thoroughly as on this thread!
Thak you all very much!

  

Why does Israel need any enemies like Iran if it has friends like you?    


David

[Edited 2012-10-02 07:07:17]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinedaviation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Really? I think ImperialEagle is perfectly rational. When Mr Turtle suggests that we raze Israel, I have to wonder who is really crazy here. And the other comments.......well, I wanted to lose some weight anyway, so the puking actually did me some good.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 76, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

I guess you are equally against Israel bulldozing or bombing Palestinian homes and constructions in the Gaza strip, West Bank and east Jerusalem, then ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 77, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting daviation (Reply 76):
When Mr Turtle suggests that we raze Israel, I have to wonder who is really crazy here.

If you want to leave Israel as it is, you're assuming that the foundation of Israel wasn't a problem. However, I am convinced that the birth of that nation was and still is a grave error, and so I believe that there must be a remedy against it.

Years ago, I had deep sympathy for Israel. It was the time when Steven Spielberg made "Schindler's List". It was the time Yitzhak Rabin was shot. It was the time Israel celebrated its fifty years of existence.

But the stalling peace "process" made me sober. If the Palestinans have to meet conditions so that their leader will get a meeting fixed to *discuss* things with the Israeli PM, I don't see any interest in peace on Israels side. Imagine the reverse - Israel having to meet conditions so Mr. Netanyahu can drive to Ramallah and make any proposal.

Peace can only exist between equals. But now, it is "peace through superior firepower" only.

I wrote my high school thesis on Jewish settlers and their ideology. Since, I do not have much respect left for Israel, a country which, if the external enemies would cease to exist, would go up in smoke due to missing internal cohesion between the orthodox, the reformed Jews, the atheist ones and the various other social (sub)groups.

Israel is a country which is forced to exist, it can't exist on its own. A Jewish friend once told me that she wouldn't want to live there. And she used my words - break down that country, and build up again. Elsewhere.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 78, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

There are in fact anti-zionist Israelis. Can you imagine that in other countries ? Some people want independence for their part of a country, but they don't want it to disappear !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 79, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

None of you here would want to be a average Iranian.

We are nowhere as bad as Iran - the average weekly net wage is around $120 and you are spending around 10% to 15% of your wage on 1 chicken now because of the sanctions.

Best we can do is lift the sanctions and leave them in peace to their own destiny. Israel knows very well that Iran are building no "bomb" - there is no need for a "red line".



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 80, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 80):
Israel knows very well that Iran are building no "bomb" - there is no need for a "red line".

Do you have a source for this?? I mean I disagree with the way Israel is handling this, but why would they want to bomb Iran and kill their nuclear scientists if they KNOW Iran isn't building a bomb? Makes no sense



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 81, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 81):

It's twisted, but still logical. Iranian nuclear scientists are assassinated to prove that Iran is building a bomb.

Then, people like you say Iran must be building a bomb, because, otherwise the assassinations would not make sense.  


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 82, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 81):
Do you have a source for this??

OK... took me a little while but I found it... This is the article:

Israel army chief says Iran not building nuclear bomb
Israel's military chief said he does not believe Iran will decide to produce an atom bomb, describing its leadership as "very rational" in an interview published on Wednesday.

ieutenant-General Benny Gantz's characterisation of Iran's rulers appeared to be at odds with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's oft-stated warnings that Islamic leaders could opt to use nuclear weapons even at the risk of devastating retaliation.

read more here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ran-not-building-nuclear-bomb.html

           



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 83, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 82):

Well that still doesn't explain why they're killing the scientists in the first place lol. Unless people in turn, saying there must be a bomb made Israel paranoid so they killed more scientists, completing the cycle. So the real question is, how/why did the original scientists die?  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 84, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 84):

Comrade,

I see you have the wits to work in any secret service. 

My intel says that these "assassinations" are a ploy to make the world believe that the Mossad is frantically trying to stop the Iranian bomb.

Of course, Israel does not know this because the Mossad is working secretly.




David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 85, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 85):
Of course, Israel does not know this because the Mossad is working secretly.

Well great, we uncovered the secret. I guess we should enjoy our last few minutes before Mossad comes to our doors and takes us out for uncovering their plans! 
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
Israel army chief says Iran not building nuclear bomb

Well, I wouldn't describe the thoughts of one man, even though he's very high up, as what "Israel thinks and knows." Not sure the situation in your country, but I would guess that your country, like ours, has top officials with wildly different opinions that each other.

Still don't know why Israel would be making such a big deal out of Iran if they 'know' Iran isn't making a bomb. What would be the point of trying to start a war then?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 86, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 86):
Still don't know why Israel would be making such a big deal out of Iran

Not Israel. I'd say rather Netanyahu and his clan.

Most people in Israel don't want a war against Iran. They know they have more to lose than gain from such a war if it happens.

It seems that Netanyahu is about to back off. He would like to see Mitt Romney taking the job in the White House then he will get total support to attack Iran which he is not getting from Obama.

        



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 87, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 72):
Never have such a handfull of anti-semites validated my opinions so thoroughly as on this thread!
Thak you all very much!

  
what do you call an Israeli who is against Zionism and doesn't want WW3 with Iran then?



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 72):
Never have such a handfull of anti-semites validated my opinions so thoroughly as on this thread!
Thak you all very much!

The default go-to card when out of arguments. Up there in inanity with Hitler comparisons.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 88):
what do you call an Israeli who is against Zionism and doesn't want WW3 with Iran then?

self-hating jew?. At least that's the term I've seen being used.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 89, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 89):
self-hating jew?. At least that's the term I've seen being used.

Jews have enough problems of their own. Like the eternal struggle between assimilating in the "other" culture, or if they should hold fast to their own. Every Jew has to decide if he belongs to the Jewish religion, if he he belongs to the Jewish culture (or people), or if he feels bound to the Jewish state, Israel.

Not an easy thing if you ask me. As a protestant grown up in Switzerland I never had trouble finding my identity. I just did not care.

Having a state or a country of their own is not a core element of the Jewish faith. So, there are Jewish anti-zionists. There are Jews in favor of abolishing the state of Israel.

If Jews turn against Israel, it isn't "self-hate", but it is a interpretation of scripture. Neturei Karta is one faction, they say that Jews have a three-fold oath with God:
- the Jewish do not rebel against other people that give them sanctuary (i.e. do not fight against Palestinians, this especially concerns the pre-1948 history of Palestine)
- the Jewish do not immigrate en masse to the land of Israel
- in return, non-Jews do not persecute Jews.

Like I said before, most Rabbis in Europe were against founding a Jewish state - up to the 1920ies. Theodor Herzl met stiff opposition from the Jewish establishment who wanted to assimilate in the European cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti-Zionism


David

[Edited 2012-10-02 14:57:23]

[Edited 2012-10-02 14:58:06]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2578 posts, RR: 7
Reply 90, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 72):
Never have such a handfull of anti-semites validated my opinions so thoroughly as on this thread!
Thak you all very much! 

Hmmm. I think someone is getting a perverse thrill out of the attention.
Sounds familiar.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 91, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 87):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 86):
Still don't know why Israel would be making such a big deal out of Iran

Not Israel. I'd say rather Netanyahu and his clan.

So you're saying that Neanyahu believes Iran is making a nuke? Again, I'm having trouble figuring out why ANYONE would want to fight Iran just because. I'm not for war with Iran but I can at least see where the ones that want to strike Iran are coming from. But if they don't think there's a nuke being built, then why???

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 87):
Most people in Israel don't want a war against Iran.

Do you have a source for this? I looked for something to back that up in the past but was unsuccessful



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 92, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 87):
Most people in Israel don't want a war against Iran.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 92):
Do you have a source for this? I looked for something to back that up in the past but was unsuccessful

I also believe that no ordinary citizen in Israel wants war.

But from what I'm reading about Israel and its society I know that the citizen trust their government to make the right decisions in defending the country. Criticism of the minister of defense, the war planners or the armed forces is rare.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 92):

Do you have a source for this? I looked for something to back that up in the past but was unsuccessful
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-appears-to-prep-iran-strikes?lite

That's just one of many. There are also reports on international news stations that go more in detail about the situation, although I'm not sure how to look that up on the net.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 94, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 92):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 87):
Most people in Israel don't want a war against Iran.

Do you have a source for this? I

Israelis oppose war with Iran despite govt's hawkish stance

More than 400 Israelis, including prominent academics, have signed an online petition appealing to Israel Defense Forces (IDF) pilots not to obey hypothetical orders to bomb Iran.

read more:
http://rt.com/news/israelis-oppose-iran-war-936/

  


Polls show most Israelis oppose strike against Iran
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08...raelis-oppose-strike-against-iran/


Most Israeli citizens don't want a war with Iran
Binyamin Netanyahu and western hawks who seek an early strike are ignoring Israel's security experts and people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...israel-citizens-dont-want-war-iran



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 95, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2146 times:



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 92):

there could be two reasons, one to teach Iran a lesson for daring to stand up against Israel and say unsavory things, two something deeper perhaps related to religion that experts have anaylysed so much and realised its the penultimate truth and Iran figures in it some way. its been said in Islamic teachings that the anti-christ will be born in Isfahan which is in Iran, so this is one indicator perhaps they want to rule the place to welcome him as he is the jews messiah.

[Edited 2012-10-03 10:25:04]

User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 95):
More than 400 Israelis, including prominent academics, have signed an online petition appealing to Israel Defense Forces (IDF) pilots not to obey hypothetical orders to bomb Iran.

Only 400? Population of Israel is over 7 million, need to do better then that.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2361 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 96):

This sounds almost like a Dan Brown novel... but there are stranger things: An organization is preparing the second coming of the messiah, and is already preparing all utensils to be used in the Third Temple.

This also entails the breeding of a kosher red cow...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_Institute


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 98, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 97):
Only 400? Population of Israel is over 7 million, need to do better then that.

Reminds me of the "Petition for Building Bridges and Promoting Dialogue" of Pakistan-Israel friendship forum started by a Pakistani and Israeli guy in 2005, coincidentally when General Musharraf was testing waters by allowing his Foreign minister to meet the Israeli counterpart in Istanbul, their goal was 1000 signatures official count 555 while site states only 473 signed, petition closed down since.

[Edited 2012-10-03 10:48:34]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 99, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 96):
there could be two reasons,

I don't know... that's pretty far fetched of a reason to go to war. I question some of the things their government does but this is way out there. Not saying it's impossible but I'd consider that implausible, versus the very plausible reason--they do indeed think Iran is making a nuclear weapon. Again, could be wrong, but that reason makes sense and the other reasons really don't IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 100, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Former. Secretary Gates calls Iran attack “catastrophic”, warns against “blank check” for Israel...

Quote:
….”The results of an American or Israeli military strike on Iran could, in my view, prove catastrophic, haunting us for generations in that part of the world.”
….United Nations sanctions aimed at discouraging Iran’s nuclear ambitions are starting to have an impact on the Iranian economy, he said, and “that’s our best chance going forward, to ratchet up the economic pressure and diplomatic isolation to the point where the Iranian leadership concludes that it actually hurts Iranian security and, above all, the security of the regime itself, to continue to pursue nuclear weapons.”

read more:
http://www.lobelog.com/gates-calls-i...ns-against-blank-check-for-israel/


Hillary Clinton laughs about possible war against Iran, suggests "provoking" war!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=799_1348921063

yuck!


 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
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