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Here Comes The Presidential Debates  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

The first Presidential Debate is tomorrow (Wednesday) at 9PM to 10:30 PM Eastern timeZone.

The Moderator is Jim Lehrer (Host of NewsHour on PBS), who does have a solid reputation.

Quote:
The debate will focus on domestic policy and be divided into six time segments of approximately 15 minutes each on topics to be selected by the moderator and announced several weeks before the debate.

So far both sides have been downplaying their candidate's Debating Ability. Paul Ryan has actually said that this is Romney's "first time he has debated".         

Wonder what part of the primaries debates that Ryan didn't understand.

My bet for the debates is that Romney will do very well, but might be hesitant to hit as hard s he has in the primaries and so far to date in the campaign. It will be his first time in a debate with a President and the Office does have a power in itself.

Looking at health care, Romney's problem is RomneyCare - very similar to ObamaCare. He also has a serious problem (IMO) with his deflection of important questions - like what middle class loopholes will be killed when he "cuts taxes".

Overall Romney does have an issue with "effecting questions". The only question is if Obama can hit him effectively with that.

Other scheduled debates:

The only Vice President Debate is October 11th

Quote:
The debate will cover both foreign and domestic topics and be divided into nine time segments of approximately 10 minutes each.

The Second Presidential Debate is October 16th.

Quote:
The second presidential debate will take the form of a town meeting, in which citizens will ask questions of the candidates on foreign and domestic issues.

The last Presidential Debate is October 22

Quote:
The second presidential debate will take the form of a town meeting, in which citizens will ask questions of the candidates on foreign and domestic issues.

Link for all:

http://www.2012presidentialelectionn...2012-presidential-debate-schedule/

So who's going with Romney or Obama to win this one?

235 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5420 times:
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Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
So who's going with Romney or Obama to win this one?

With way the polls are i think Obama just needs to keep cool and not do anything drastic. He needs to leave the "misspeaking" to Romney. He need to leave the "zinger" and the desperation to Romney

On the other hand, I saw something interesting last night, the talking claimed that if Romney does not fall on his face, it would be a victory for him. And I agree.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5415 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):

With way the polls are i think Obama just needs to keep cool and not do anything drastic. He needs to leave the "misspeaking" to Romney. He need to leave the "zinger" and the desperation to Romney

That's what i was thinking, Obama can really put the nail in the coffin here



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My bet for the debates is that Romney will do very well, but might be hesitant to hit as hard s he has in the primaries and so far to date in the campaign. It will be his first time in a debate with a President and the Office does have a power in itself.

Romney's biggest problem is that he has not been effective in communicating what exactly he will do. Their is a lot of murk and unknown details. He needs to be precise and cutting against Obama. For example everyone knows that Obama wants to raise taxes on the wealthy, and leave most of the rest of the taxes in place for now. However romney has generically hinted at radical and sweeping cuts, without identifying the loopholes that will equilibrate the lost income. It is a bit of "voodoo" economics. He can't make these promises without some hard numbers, and I think that a lot of folks will be looking to that. He needs to differentiate himself, and domestifcally I am really not sure how he will do it other than taxes. Obamacare is a bad road for him, and today he basically said he would allow the "dreamers" to stay in country so Immigration won't be a differentiator.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

I think Romney is going to get his ass handed to him on a plate tomorrow. Looking forward to it - a lot.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Paul Ryan has actually said that this is Romney's "first time he has debated".

The Republicans will say any* lie, no matter how bald-faced, and Ryan is as bad as any of them when it comes to "truthiness".

* "we won't let our campaign be dictated to by fact-checkers" - wow is that ever true.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 2):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):

With way the polls are i think Obama just needs to keep cool and not do anything drastic. He needs to leave the "misspeaking" to Romney. He need to leave the "zinger" and the desperation to Romney

That's what i was thinking, Obama can really put the nail in the coffin here

Romney did that for him with the '47%' secret comments... game over. This is simply for shirts & giggles...

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
On the other hand, I saw something interesting last night, the talking claimed that if Romney does not fall on his face, it would be a victory for him. And I agree.


I think the expectations for Romney are lowers and polls show that. That honestly is a good thing. Romney is a good at debating though. So is President Obama of course. Because expectations are lower I think Romney pulls this one off for a few reasons.
First he will surpass expectations. Second we have all heard what Obama thinks over and over again we know what he thinks which leads to if Romney can say something new with details that will give people something to think about. And lastly with President Obama leading in the polls he knows he should not do anything drastic. He will take this one easy and see what happens. The worst thing he could do is mess it up himself.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
Romney's biggest problem is that he has not been effective in communicating what exactly he will do


Agreed. I really hope he gets out there with some better details. He does not have all the time in the world it is not easy to giving details in 9 minutes that is what Obama does well. Or at least he makes it seem like he is giving details. It is all about perseption in time limited things like this.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
I think Romney is going to get his ass handed to him on a plate tomorrow. Looking forward to it - a lot.


Thought we could finally just maybe have a decent civilized thread at least until the debate is over. Guess I was wrong. But this is exactly the expectation of many, especially the Dems. This is why I think Romney can have a good night.

But lets be real there is no score card. Dems are going to think everything Obama said was great and Repubs are going to say the same for Romney. The people in the middle are who count but there are not many of them.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19717 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
This is simply for shirts & giggles...

But it always is. I doubt many voters base their votes off the debates. Frankly, I view the debates as being about as useful as the conventions.

"You tell 'im, Barak!"
"Give it back to him, Mitt!"

Buncha cheerleading on both sides, not much new gets said. If you pay attention to what was said in the press releases and speeches, that's what really counts.

If anything, these debates will be amusing. Romney has a way with words like Humpty Dumpty does with walls. And Barak Obama, while he's a great speaker, isn't exactly good at winging it on his feet.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

So to sum up the last couple weeks I've, I've heard:

Democrats saying Romney is a good debater
Democrats saying Romney is a bad debater
Republicans saying Romney is a good debater
Republicans saying Romney is a bad debater

Looks like no one knows what's going on



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19717 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5292 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):

Democrats saying Romney is a good debater
Democrats saying Romney is a bad debater
Republicans saying Romney is a good debater
Republicans saying Romney is a bad debater

Looks like no one knows what's going on

Pretty much, yeah.

Besides, honestly, the two candidates are so wildly different that if you haven't figured out who you're voting for yet, you obviously either haven't been paying attention or don't care.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1377 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
But it always is. I doubt many voters base their votes off the debates. Frankly, I view the debates as being about as useful as the conventions.

I don't think you can win the Presidency during the debates, but I think you can lose it. Romney's problem is that debates are the area Obama excelled in most during the last campaign, so unless he just fails to prepare it's hard to see where he's going to stumble.

Can't wait for the VP debate though....



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19717 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
I don't think you can win the Presidency during the debates, but I think you can lose it.

I'll give you that. But then again, I think Romney lost it a while ago. As I said, he has a way with words...


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
I think the expectations for Romney are lowers and polls show that.



I believe the polls are very different from debate expectations. Romney has some difficulties in the polls, but he has been in a LOT of debates in this year. The GOP primaries was very good practice for the candidate. Well, most of them.

I expect Romney to do very well in the debate. I believe he will continue to deflect questions that require delivering what the middle class would be facing under a Romney Administration. Possible a hit on his tax returns.

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
I really hope he gets out there with some better details.

I believe he will skillfully deflect delivering details. He's avoided details so far and I don't expect him to change unless he goes a lot further in the polls.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
I believe he will skillfully deflect delivering details. He's avoided details so far and I don't expect him to change unless he goes a lot further in the polls.

I think he should go ahead and give some so maybe it helps him in the polls.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
I believe the polls are very different from debate expectations. Romney has some difficulties in the polls, but he has been in a LOT of debates in this year.

Sorry should have mentioned it, I was only referring to the CNN poll about the debate. I agree with you though Romney has had a lot of practice and the general polls mean nothing about the debate. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ll-who-will-win-wednesdays-debate/

Quote:
According to a ABC News/Washington Post national poll released Monday, 55% of likely voters say they think the president will win the debate, with 31% saying that Romney will be victorious.


Everyone knows Pres Obama is a great speaker but he is not the best off the top of his head. We will see what happens. Should be an entertaining night watching and here on the forum for the aftermath



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

im just sick and tired of Romney and Ryan and their lying asses. Seriously  . Obama just needs to win this and lets get on with the next 4 years!

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 14):

You call Romenu and Ryan liers. There are plenty of things Obama has lied and or failed about. If this said during a campaign is considered lying Pres Obama is full of them!



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Is it a real debate, face to face answering and attacking each other, or is it a speech with interruptions to let the other candidate make his speech ?

Also, do some soundbites from debates stay in memory ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

I was reading somewhere that since both Romney and Obama are individually boring speakers, expect the debates to be MASSIVELY boring!   

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
The first Presidential Debate is tomorrow (Wednesday) at 9PM to 10:30 PM Eastern timeZone.

I would really like to watch this but it will be live cast at stupid o'clock in the night my time. I guess I will have to watch a replay.

 

As to which candidate has the most chances of getting the job at the White House I will have to let those in charge decide who they want. I would certainly prefer one who will oppose war rather than one who will push for war.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):

Romney's biggest problem is that he has not been effective in communicating what exactly he will do. Their is a lot of murk and unknown details.

Yep. Did you see the infamous clip when Chris Wallace (of Fox News) tried to get Paul Ryan to elaborate on some of the details, and Ryan blew him off? And then Romney's op-ed in the Wall Street Journal about foreign policy the other day that said absolutely nothing about what he would do when he was in office?

From another perspective, it's kind of ironic that the Republicans criticized (And rightfully so--I completely agreed with the criticism) Obama in 2008 for the nebulous concepts of "Hope" and "Change" without offering much in the way of specifics, and in 2012 the Republicans' own candidates are running on a basic platform of change, and not offering much in the way of specifics.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 19):

From another perspective, it's kind of ironic that the Republicans criticized (And rightfully so--I completely agreed with the criticism) Obama in 2008 for the nebulous concepts of "Hope" and "Change" without offering much in the way of specifics, and in 2012 the Republicans' own candidates are running on a basic platform of change, and not offering much in the way of specifics.

Yeah, but everyone needed hope and change in 2008. The problem now is that you have had a congress sceaming for two years about budgets and deficits, and now Romney is coming in and basically saying we will change the tax code, and that will magically fix some things. But he is not being specific. People want specifics because everyone is tired of the old, we have to cut this and that, but when push comes to shove , no one wants to cut this vs that.
Everyone is suspicious of Romney and Ryan's plan because it is basically about flatening the tax code, and killing some sacred cows to keep it revenue neutral or raise revenue. Where thos revenue shifts come from should not be a limited discussion about etheral "loopholes".



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

*yawn* wake me when I get my ballot....


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Is it a real debate, face to face answering and attacking each other, or is it a speech with interruptions to let the other candidate make his speech ?

Also, do some soundbites from debates stay in memory ?

The moderator asks each questions that they answer in their own way, mostly rehearsed. They are on the same stage across from each other at podiums usually.

Reagan was a great debater. He has some very memorable quotes attributed to him from debates. For example:

"Ask yourself, 'Are you better off now than you were four years ago? Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago? Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago? Is America as respected throughout the world as it was?”

The Vice Presidential debates can be good too. Quayle and Bentsen in '88.

Quayle: "I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency."

Bentsen: "I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."


I'm planning on going to the gym tonight and watching it while I run on the treadmill. The wife could care less about it, so I figure I'll save her the heartache.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5003 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Also, do some soundbites from debates stay in memory ?

McCain had a good one from a debate four years ago that stuck with me: "Senator [Obama], I'm not George Bush. If you wanted to run against George Bush you should have run four years ago."

He did lose the election of course, but that was for other reasons.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4975 times:

Thanks for your answers. I'll probably download it on the newsgroups to see for myself.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
"Senator [Obama], I'm not George Bush. If you wanted to run against George Bush you should have run four years ago."

That was a great line - I had forgotten it.

I'm sure that both Romney & Obama have had some great lines written for them. The question is how well tey deliver those lines. Hopefully Romney can deliver a good line better than he sings.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4998 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Besides, honestly, the two candidates are so wildly different that if you haven't figured out who you're voting for yet, you obviously either haven't been paying attention or don't care.

Or, if you're like me you feel like a CIWS on the corner of the flight deck...with two missiles coming at you at the same time and aren't sure which one to shoot down.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 22):
The Vice Presidential debates can be good too. Quayle and Bentsen in '88.

Quayle: "I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency."

Bentsen: "I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."

I saw that debate live...that line was clutch!


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Ok everyone , here we go.
Everyone take a drink each time the following are mentioned .
Middle Class
Tax Cuts
Class Warfare
Deficit

I'd continue, but i don't want to be responsible for hospital bills.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5009 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
Middle Class
Tax Cuts
Class Warfare
Deficit

Well I haven't heard "class warfare," but I've already heard the other few a million times lol.

Kinda off topic, but I love how Romney has only one emotion  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

So far, from mine looks like Romney might have a slight edge.
Love his caveat, 'no tax cut that adds to the deficit', here's a tax cut, loljokes, we didn't think it'd add to the deficit.

How many times has Obama said 'aanndd', 'orrr', 'ahhh'...

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
Everyone take a drink each time the following are mentioned .

I hope you're not dead of alcohol poisoning just yet! They're at about one of those phrases every 5 seconds.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 29):
hope you're not dead of alcohol poisoning just yet! They're at about one of those phrases every 5 seconds.

For those still sober..... add "that's not my plan "to the list.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 30):
For those still sober..... add "that's not my plan "to the list.

Hahaha yes. "Get the job done" too.

So far Governor Romney is actually impressing me a little bit. I thought his quip about "having five boys so he knows what it's like to have someone tell him something that isn't true over and over again hoping he'll believe it" was pretty clever.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 31):
So far Governor Romney is actually impressing me a little bit.

I'm quite impressed too... it's an actual rational argument! You can truly see that both these men want the best for America...

I hope PHX787 isn't playing this drinking game on his 21st btw... he'd be dead by now!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 31):
So far Governor Romney is actually impressing me a little bit. I thought his quip about "having five boys so he knows what it's like to have someone tell him something that isn't true over and over again hoping he'll believe it" was pretty clever.

Personality wise he is doing ok, but he is getting flustered over Obama's ripping apart of the Romney Tax Plan. I'll be interested to see how the fact checkers come down on this, but from my understanding Obama is correct about what Romney's plan represents.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
I'll be interested to see how the fact checkers come down on this,

Same here...frankly they throw out so many figures it's really impossible to figure out who is full of crap in real time.

All a debate is really good for is determining the candidates' ability to stay cool and/or pass a line of BS with a straight face  


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Mitt sure is going over his allotted time though. Geez Louise!


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 34):

Same here...frankly they throw out so many figures it's really impossible to figure out who is full of crap in real time

I don;t think I have seen so many numbers thrown out in a debate. George W. would have been lost in this one.
They have done their homework, especially on each other's plans.

The medicare debate is interesting. Still goes on to prove that healthcare is fubar.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
Mitt sure is going over his allotted time though. Geez Louise!

"And that's number one" DRINK


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
Mitt sure is going over his allotted time though. Geez Louise!

They are staying fairly even. Lehrer is doing a pretty good job keeping them on task.

"=====================
"obamacare" is now added to the list.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Total Snoozefest...

Ronmey looks like he just got off a red-eye flight. Obama posture not so great - tends to stick out rear a la Condi Rice.

Other than that, a debate between two Harvard Law School grads...


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

TIme to sleep on it a bit.

Thought both did well. Lotsa facts to sort through.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1377 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Right after the debate my initial feeling is that Romney came across best. Not sure whether it was "best enough", but it was definitely a pretty polished performance apart from a brief stumble during the Medicare question.


If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4820 times:

Obama had over a four minute time advantage!
Did not matter though, Mitt won this for sure. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being much to partisan. Whether this means anything in the polls is the real question.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Overall it was boring lol, but I thought Obama held his own but Romney came off sharper.

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4807 times:

The sad feeling I'm left with after watching this is...do we as a nation have anything more impressive to aspire to than having the Government make sure that everybody gets their cholesterol medicine paid for?

It's like instead of Bread and Circuses we have Social Security and Health Care. Both of which go down the toilet if we don't achieve technological innovation and economic power earned by doing something other than selling each other wireless plans.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

The one problem that Romney has, that a lot of people will reflect on tommorrow is that Romney never quite explained the tax cuts and revenue at all that he has been campaigning on.


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4794 times:

Both of them threw around a lot of trillion dollar this and billion dollar that, you need to have a nerdy guy come on the corner of the screen to tell you whose more accurate with the numbers.
.
Romney comes across more relaxed and communicates better.

Pu


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4790 times:

From my end:

The cargo hold filled with the amount of people who give a **** about the debate

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sandro Mederle - JetlinerImages


  


(stolen from my other thread    )

In All seriousness though, I think Romney did bring up a number of points. Obama to me stumbled quite a bit. Good night for the R guy

[Edited 2012-10-03 19:54:07]


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 46):

Agreed I think that is why they stay away from details. 95% of the people watching would just get lose in numbers,



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 45):
The one problem that Romney has, that a lot of people will reflect on tommorrow is that Romney never quite explained the tax cuts and revenue at all that he has been campaigning on.

True. An analysis that I haven't seen is a comparison of how Romney actually performed fiscally as Governor vs. how the President has performed. Lack of specifics on Romney's part can be made up in part if he can show that when he was in the drivers seat he took Massachusetts to a better place.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Romney came off stronger in this 'debate' in style, Obama in numbers. No real major screw ups by either. It was at time a 'wonkish', numbers trading discussion, too many repeated points and numbers, it didn't stay locked in the time frames both stuck to their well established positions. I think it won't really change many undecideds, it may take the next 2 to really see any affect, but even then, it will be minor, just tightening up the difference between them in the election.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

I believe that tonight Romney took over the debate. He ran it instead of the Moderator. That points to the moderator more than Romney.

Obama looked to me like he was pretty rusty, but it's been 4 years since he's had a major debate. He simply didn't deliver like he did 4 years ago.

That is going to open a lot of doors for the next 3 debates. I think that the VP debate is going to be open warfare. After tonight I can see Obama waking up and go strong in the remaining debates.

I also look for both parties to change advertising approaches. There are a lot of GOP one liners against Romney from the primaries and they might start showing up in some ads.

After tonight I think we will see Romney get a bump and we will see a different debate for the last two.

I also think we will see the Moderators told to take control of the debate and keep control.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

I fully expect Pres Obama will be in great form for the next one. VP debate between that one. That is more entertainment than anything.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):

I believe that tonight Romney took over the debate. He ran it instead of the Moderator. That points to the moderator more than Romney


I can see what you are saying but Pres Obama did get over 4 minutes more time than Romney. The moderator sucked. I know he's done a lot of debates but he couldn't control this one.

[Edited 2012-10-03 20:34:58]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 52):
Pres Obama did get over 4 minutes more time than Romney

Classic case of 'what you put in the hours,' in my view. I'm genuinely neutral on the question of who gets in; but I reckon that, rather to my surprise, Romney came over as far more organised and capable than Obama. In my view, the only word to describe a lot of Obama's performance was 'hesitant.'

Last opinion polls I saw, Obama is ahead by around four per cent. Up to now that's been looking like a pretty decisive lead - but any more one-sided debates like this and things could get a lot closer.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4669 times:

The problem for Obama is this debate was mostly about the economy, and the economy sucks and has sucked since the day the President took office. Yeah yeah yeah he inherited "this mess," "it's not his economy," etc etc etc. The bottom line is he can't keep saying that and expect it to resonate with voters who are losing their benefits, their healthcare, their homes AFTER he took office. The majority of people have heard him say that for four years, and I'm sure his team knows that's a weak argument. After four years, Mr. President, the economy is now yours.

Political analysts from a multitude of sources have been saying for a few weeks now that Obama will not do well running on his economy. We saw that tonight. He cannot keep asking for "more time" when people cannot pay their children's doctor bills, when companies are downsizing and sending their salaries off shore due to lower wages and what at one point was listed as the second-most punitive corporate tax structure in the Western World. Well he can, but it's risky proposition. IMHO opinion he looked flustered, unsure, and was indeed stammering quite a bit, which is unusual for him. He did beautifully in the debates in 2008. Granted running against John McCain and The Woman Who Cost McCain The Election wasn't that difficult.

The problem for Romney is going to be in debates regarding social issues.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
I'll be interested to see how the fact checkers come down on this

   It's a fairly sad commentary on the state of politics that we have to wait for people to check the facts before we can figure out who really won. That said:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 50):
Romney came off stronger in this 'debate' in style, Obama in numbers.

This is a pretty good summation. Romney definitely came out looking better (and to be fair, the topic played directly to his main talking point), but I still don't think that the numbers in his budget plan add up, and when he talks about all the things that government needs to do one has to wonder how he's going to pay for all that. Passing it down to states with budget crises of their own doesn't sound like a viable solution, nor is cutting funding to PBS a serious deficit-reduction strategy. But what concerns me more is that Obama didn't hit him with all the ammunition that he's been given. No mention of the 47% line (specifically, who is in that 47% and whether one can really consider them to be lazy moochers waiting for the government to give them everything). This was a great opportunity for him to really drop the hammer, and he dropped the ball instead.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 54):
The problem for Romney is going to be in debates regarding social issues.

And foreign policy.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

I am afraid I must say that Romney won the debate and Obama just dialed it in, like he did the Convention. What is it with Obama? I was concerned about his optics - posture, command of the situation and communication. His shout out to Michelle was also quite unnecessary.

As someone who is strongly pro-Dem, I am concerned...


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 54):
The problem for Romney is going to be in debates regarding social issues.


That won't come up too much as it should not. These guys are running for president of the federal government. Not a state position and they are not Supreme Court Justices. They pick them but that's is a whole other story from my point of view. Judges should follow the law and that's it.

Anyway, Women's rights is solely and issue the left wants people to believe it is. What is Romney going to do? Hop into a Delorean going 88mph and change the outcome of Roe v. Wade?? I do not get why Pro-Life and Pro-Choice has been an issue since the SCOTUS has made its decision.
If you want to talk about public funding going to abortion fine, but that is a funding/government spending thing.
Gay Marriage: Not a Federal Government issue, they do not hand out marriage licenses and the federal government won't be able to tell a state who they can't marry. Only federal level that will decide gay rights is the supreme court.

What else is there?
I know the President picks Justices. I hope both presidents would only pick judges who are capable of following the law. Of course Pres picked someone who had never been a judge in her life. That's for another topic.

Quoting Mir (Reply 55):
And foreign policy.


They really do not have much of a difference. And the recent events in the Middle East wont help the President. I have a feeling we might hear I agree with you a few times that night. Romney has some ammo with Obama's not so great relations with Israel and the embassy attack. Obama will say look I ended the War in Iraq which he did, and Killed Osama. I just do not see that debate going far.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

It's up to Joe Biden now to save the day for the Dems. Much like when Al Gore whipped Ross Perot. Otherwise this will become a cliffhanger.

Obama - please stop watching all those zombie shows!


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4538 times:
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Quoting comorin (Reply 58):
It's up to Joe Biden now to save the day for the Dems

Great strategy.  



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

Mr Romney was quite impressive. Obama seemed confused, and made simple questions too complex.

If I say so, Mr Romney seemed more "presidential" or "commander in chief"


I'm not sure VP debate will be good for Obama camp. Biden is well known around the world to say wrong things. Saw interview with Ryan and he seems to have sharp mind and quick tongue. Could be problem for Biden.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Missed it because I had class. But there isn't a snowballs chance I would vote for four more years of Obummer incompetence so there wasn't much need for me to watch it,


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

I hope US voters will still be intelligent enough to choose Obama, no rational man wants another George W Bush into power.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4445 times:
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Quoting pvjin (Reply 62):
I hope US voters will still be intelligent enough to choose Obama

I see; so according to you, nearly 50% of Americans are unintelligent simply because they don't support re-electing the current President?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 62):

I hope US voters will still be intelligent enough to choose Obama, no rational man wants another George W Bush into power.

...and way to be that guy...

who doesn't even live or vote in the US, to boot...

thanks for your informed opinion



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 60):
I'm not sure VP debate will be good for Obama camp. Biden is well known around the world to say wrong things. Saw interview with Ryan and he seems to have sharp mind and quick tongue. Could be problem for Biden.

We're stocking up on popcorn here for this one!

[Edited 2012-10-04 03:50:08]

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 57):
Anyway, Women's rights is solely and issue the left wants people to believe it is.

There are more issues than just women's rights, and the list is long. Off the top of my head there is the LGBT to contend with, there's education funding (separate from tonight's debate), there's unions, etc etc etc. These are all hot button issues right now.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 62):
no rational man wants another George W Bush into power.

Is it considered a rational argument when one makes his own determination of ration the basis of an argument???   


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

How many debates between the two Presidential nominees/candidates are there in total?

Is it two or three? It seems that one debate is certainly not enough to discuss all the matters of duty that a US President needs to accomplish and for the voters to evaluate his/her capability to do so.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 44):
The sad feeling I'm left with after watching this is...do we as a nation have anything more impressive to aspire to than having the Government make sure that everybody gets their cholesterol medicine paid for?

It's like instead of Bread and Circuses we have Social Security and Health Care.

Well, the issue of health care should have been dealt with decades if not half a century ago, it has not been so it's still an issue. And it has an effect on everything else, for example how can you take risk as an entrepreneur knowing that if you fail you may end up with nothing, not even health ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 69):
Well, the issue of health care should have been dealt with decades if not half a century ago, it has not been so it's still an issue. And it has an effect on everything else, for example how can you take risk as an entrepreneur knowing that if you fail you may end up with nothing, not even health ?

I'm not saying that figuring out the best way to address the rising costs of health care isn't important, especially for small business owners and employees, but if you listen carefully an awful lot of the health care debate is about Medicare...about senior citizens. I'm 41 so not oblivious to the realities of advancing age, but if all we as a nation focus on is making people as comfortable as possible at the end of their lives we're missing the ball completely. Despite the stereotype of the old lady eating cat food, poverty and lack of access to affordable health care is a young person's problem. And when they get off to a bad start it's far more costly for all of us in the long run. Even if from a selfish standpoint we need productive young people to take care of (and eventually grow into productive and healthy) old people.

I'd like to hear my leaders talking about how we're going to return to a position of prominence in science and engineering (home grown vice imported 'smart people'), revitalize industry, promote medical research and healthier lifestyles to begin with, making sure children have acceptable health care and nutrition, involvement in music and athletics etc. That's where we need to be putting our effort.

We just don't talk about excellence anymore, and it shows.

Edit: I think this post is 'on topic' because my point is not about health care per se, rather "What the debates should be about."

[Edited 2012-10-04 05:18:24]

User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 55):
It's a fairly sad commentary on the state of politics that we have to wait for people to check the facts before we can figure out who really won. That said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...6-11e2-bb5e-492c0d30bff6_blog.html

here is a blog I have been looking over, others can point to them as well.

The tax cuts, which I have been highly critical of, are still highly suspect. Romney has not speciified his loopholes yet, and most studies can't get around how he will have to raise overall rates for the middle class, especially when you add the increased defense spending to the tax cuts. Obama did a poor job of coming back at Romney on this issue during the debate though, and allowed himself to get caught up in a numbers battle.

As the above site points out, Romeycare would not be nearly as successful as it is , without a lot of help from the Federal Government, and so his self sustaining idea of the healthcare plans for the states is highly suspect. I also don't think that small states such as Delaware, Wyoming, Alaska or others could quite pull it off to the extent of Massachusettes without a lot of federal funds.

Both of them did a loose job with numbers in this matchup. However Obama was not engaged or aggressive enough on his plans and details. He rambled on and used up time that could have been better targeted.


I wish the debate covered more subjects. The timeframe was limited and a lot of important issues were not discussed. I will give Jim Lehrer an overall low grade on handling the quesitons and the candidates response times.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 65):
...and way to be that guy...

who doesn't even live or vote in the US, to boot...

thanks for your informed opinion

You're welcome. I wouldn't really care about US politics if they didn't affect rest of the world so much thanks to US playing world police.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 70):
I'd like to hear my leaders talking about how we're going to return to a position of prominence in science and engineering (home grown vice imported 'smart people'), revitalize industry, promote medical research and healthier lifestyles to begin with, making sure children have acceptable health care and nutrition, involvement in music and athletics etc. That's where we need to be putting our effort.

You're right of course, but one of the candidates has only one response for all of those : tax cuts ! And some would say that Obama's only plan is more government.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4255 times:
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Well just watched a 6 minute round up and I listened to some outtakes on the radio and it did seem that romney did better but it was nice to see that they were both fairly normal guys and they seemed to share a laugh at the end, sometimes you forget (with all the nonsense that people speak) that they are clever people and they are also nice people.

Fred


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 57):
They really do not have much of a difference. And the recent events in the Middle East wont help the President.

Romney has nothing on foreign policy, other than the mistaken idea that we can somehow control everything that happens in the world. In doing so, he's already come off as a fool. The recent events in the Middle East would have happened under his watch too, unless he just wants to send the US military into every country where it looks like there might be soem unrest (which will, of course, be expensive).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Thinking of the fact that some of Netanyahu's donors are also Romney's campaign donors makes it that I would rather Obama for another term.

Attacking Iran would most probably be high on Romney's priority list. Not good. While Obama will probably not change his mind on this and it's a good thing.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

A huge Romney win in this debate. With out the telepromptor Obama looked out of his league and confused as usual. After four years of being in office he is still the least qualified candidate to run this country.

Quoting Mir (Reply 75):
Romney has nothing on foreign policy

And Obama has done such a good job the last years   The community organizer still has no clue as to what he is doing?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4226 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 77):
A huge Romney win in this debate. With out the telepromptor Obama looked out of his league and confused as usual.

Have to agree. I watched the debate a bit more and have to confess that I got the impression that Obama - a guy that I instinctively like a lot - seemed basically just to be saying what his 'scriptwriters' had advised him to say (as far as he could remember their advice  ).

Whereas Romney seemed at least to be saying what he personally believed......... Whether or not one agreed with him on everything.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 77):
And Obama has done such a good job the last years

So what would you have done differently? Ground forces in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria on top of Afghanistan and Iraq? B-52s instead of drones? Nukes instead of diplomacy?

Go on, give us an idea...



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4214 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 62):
I hope US voters will still be intelligent enough to choose Obama, no rational man wants another George W Bush into power.


Since when is Mitt Romney GWB?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 64):
so yes I would say that a lot of Republican supporters are dumb and/or brainwashed with religious propaganda.


That certainly is insulting to me and close to half of Americans. Could not be anymore wrong too.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 60):
I'm not sure VP debate will be good for Obama camp. Biden is well known around the world to say wrong things. Saw interview with Ryan and he seems to have sharp mind and quick tongue. Could be problem for Biden.


It will more entertaining than anything. I think Ryan will have the upper hand but who knows.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 67):
There are more issues than just women's rights,


I am just saying women's rights is NOT an issue. The left wants all women to believe it is. They are brainwashing women to think Romney can magically and illegally take away their rights. It makes no sense and how women are actually falling for it is even more unbeleiveable.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 67):
Off the top of my head there is the LGBT to contend with


Not a federal issue besides for DADT which was correctly taken away.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 67):
there's education funding (separate from tonight's debate),


It is not like Romney does not like education. He just does not think the federal government should be controlling it.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 68):
How many debates between the two Presidential nominees/candidates are there in total?


There are 2 more and one VP debate.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 72):
I wouldn't really care about US politics if they didn't affect rest of the world so much thanks to US playing world police.


Oh what a place the world would be without the US playing police. What language would you be speaking if they were not? Russian? Or German? Make your pick.
The world needs U.S. military power for the world to run somewhat smoothly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. This is not an American perspective. This is an international affairs perspective.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 76):
Attacking Iran would most probably be high on Romney's priority list. Not good. While Obama will probably not change his mind on this and it's a good thing.


BOTH Pres Obama and Romney will attack Iran if they continue with their Nuclear program. Both do not want to attack if they can stop it before it gets to a point of no return. A nuclear armed Iran is bad for everyone. Especially Europe!



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
A nuclear armed Iran is bad for everyone. Especially Europe!

How so? The Iranians know as well as everyone else that actually using the Bomb would mean their annihilation. So if they build one, it will be nothing but a deterrent - it works for Israel and it would have worked for Iraq, which is the example they learnt from.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

This video from MSNBC tells it all. It also tells you how far they have their heads up Obama's rear end....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/what...hews-unloads-on-obama-post-debate/



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

They were both wooden, uninspiring, and frankly an embarassment while watching from abroad. They throw out factoids and numbers like they have no meaning, talk in circles, and regale us with their dry anecdotes and crass posturing as just like the rest of the middle class majority. Romney came across as expected - a smarmy, out of touch ex-CEO devoid of original ideas, and Obama with his useless attempts to be everyman with his grandmother who went from "secretary to vice president of a bank" - was equally painful. This the best America has to offer folks...

Dumb and Dumber.



[Edited 2012-10-04 07:53:53]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2609 posts, RR: 16
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4155 times:
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I've already decided that since both candidates are putting up their polished front, blaming and accusing each other, promising things they can't deliver, and in general fooling us into believing they want to help...it doesn't really matter who comes into the office. No president has ever fulfilled all his promises. Things will still suck for the middle and poor under both guys and things will still be gravy for the rich no matter what. If you're already rich and raking in millions who cares if you have to pay a little more or less in taxes? I doubt that will put you on the street. The only reason these rich people are complaining is because of their absolute greed. And, by the way, people making $250k are not middle class. By all means I would consider these people in the "rich" class.

Personally, i think the main thing that needs to be done is pull out of Afghanistan and end this pointless military spending. We don't need to be world police. If these countries can't control themselves, screw them. Let them figure it out. Clearly the people living there don't appreciate what the US have done anyway. Better to sit back, watch the giant chicken fight in the Middle East unfold and use the money saved to invest in domestic issues. Cut the Marines (no other country in the world has an equivalent to this quite useless branch), cut some of the F-35 orders and maybe even retire half the carrier fleet. WTF do we need all this military power for?? I love military aviation, it is my passion really, but I can see that the current force is burdening the USA. This would equal trillions of dollars in savings.

Since neither candidate will do this, I figure the best for me is to raffle my vote to the highest bidder. Pay me and I'll vote for you. I'll probably make more money that way than your policies, and you'll probably spend less money than campaigning to "win" my vote. It is the land of opportunity right?  
Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
Oh what a place the world would be without the US playing police. What language would you be speaking if they were not? Russian? Or German? Make your pick.

Are you kidding?? The USA didn't save the world from speaking German and they wouldn't have joined in WW2 if Japan hadn't made the mistake of attacking us. That was mistake number 1 of the Axis. Mistake number 2 was Hitler attacking Russia. The Russians did far more in the European theater than the USA did and lost tens of millions more soldiers. The USA helped, no denying that especially on the Pacific theater, but more was done by Russia. Before joining WW2 the US had a passive approach, which, once provoked turned into involvement. This is fundamentally different than the current approach. Which is, patrol the world and willingly intervene in everyone's affairs and wars.

The same applies to "speaking Russian". We never fought the USSR, nor did we save anyone. The Soviet Union ran bankrupt and collapsed by itself. It was just a matter of time.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4144 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 63):
I see; so according to you, nearly 50% of Americans are unintelligent simply because they don't support re-electing the current President?

I can tell you what 47% of the American people are.. (Romney can too)

I agree with the theme overall theme. Romney had nothing to loose and he played it that way. He did a good job at it.

His plan still sucks, but he did a good job in defending it.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 84):
The same applies to "speaking Russian". We never fought the USSR, nor did we save anyone.

Have to intervene a bit there, sovietjet. WW2 ended in 1945, but Germany finished up divided into West and East Germany. East Germany was occupied by the Russians and (having served in Germany for a while in 1959) I can assure you that the border remained on a 'war footing,' complete with fortifications, artillery emplacements, etc., for many years. And though the British played their part, I can further assure you that about 70% of the 'manpower' and 'firepower' needed to confront the Russians (known in those days as the Red Army) was provided by the United States.

Germany was not in fact re-united until 1990. And I can assure you that there was virtually no contact between the two halves of Germany until then; the border between the Allied and Russian zones, up to that date, was aptly referred to as the 'Iron Curtain.'

For over 25 years, after 1945, large areas of Europe (especially places like Finland, which has been discussed above) were in fact at grave risk of being occupied by Communist Russia. Oddly enough, the British Army probably did more than anyone to prevent that; because, in 1945, they succeeded in occupying Hamburg and Lubeck from the west, before the Russians could capture those places from the east. Blokes who were involved at the time said that it was a 'mad dash,' they were driven on unmercifully. Point was, of course, that those towns gave the Western Allies naval bases from which they could, if necessary, take the Russians on - which basically ensured that the Russians couldn't dominate the entire Baltic Sea.

So, believe me, there was a very grave risk, until 45 years after the end of WW2, that a lot of Europe might still have ended up 'speaking Russian.' The period was, in fact, aptly referred to as the "Cold War.' And the United States (as the main contributor to NATO, the 'North Atlantic Treaty Organisation') played the leading part in making sure that that didn't happen.

[Edited 2012-10-04 09:16:02]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 52):
I know he's done a lot of debates but he couldn't control this one.

And I believe he has just done his last Presidential Debate. Hopefully.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 54):
After four years, Mr. President, the economy is now yours.

What is Obama's is how he has built on the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. He can show the turn around in employment, auto industry, home industry. He can point to a lot of things that he delivered on from the economic disaster. So, yes, it is fair to look at how he has solidified a falling base economy.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 54):
He cannot keep asking for "more time" when people cannot pay their children's doctor bills, when companies are downsizing and sending their salaries off shore due to lower wages and what at one point was listed as the second-most punitive corporate tax structure in the Western World

Kids sick? They today are protected for pre-existing conditions because of ObamaCare. For those families who have really sick kids that is a huge blessing.

Companies downsizing?

Quoting luckyone (Reply 54):
The problem for Romney is going to be in debates regarding social issues.
Quoting flymia (Reply 57):
These guys are running for president of the federal government. Not a state position and they are not Supreme Court Justices.

The President has been right in the middle of social issues. Start (in my lifetime) with the integration of the military and civil rights. We have this problem with "state rights" and that is the requirement for Equal Protection Under The Law. We need a President and a national level government to protect that Equal Protection.

And we are Nation, regardless of how hard state rights supporters try to diminish that reality.

What was interesting was Romney slipping out more information on his tax program.

We know that he is pushing for a 20% reduction in all levels. Now his campaign is discussing caps on deductions. About $17,000 for middle class and maybe less for the wealthy.

That is going to hit many in the middle class pretty hard and is a huge gift to the wealthy. A guy like Romney with a $20 million income for the year will get a $4,000,000.00 tax cut, with minimal impact on their deductions. Need to cut the amount of the standard deduction? Not a problem for a guy with a $4,000,000.00 tax cut.


User currently onlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 83):
They were both wooden, uninspiring, and frankly an embarassment while watching from abroad. They throw out factoids and numbers like they have no meaning, talk in circles, and regale us with their dry anecdotes and crass posturing as just like the rest of the middle class majority. Romney came across as expected - a smarmy, out of touch ex-CEO devoid of original ideas, and Obama with his useless attempts to be everyman with his grandmother who went from "secretary to vice president of a bank" - was equally painful. This the best America has to offer folks...

This man gets it.

That was a two hour debacle of not answering the question so they could get to their canned responses, with a few pointless stories sprinkled in to try and come across as normal human beings. Romney seemed to have learned his lines a bit better than Obama, but neither impressed me.

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
I am just saying women's rights is NOT an issue. The left wants all women to believe it is. They are brainwashing women to think Romney can magically and illegally take away their rights. It makes no sense and how women are actually falling for it is even more unbeleiveable.

Please tell me you're trying to make a joke. Of course women's rights are an issue. Perhaps you've missed all the cases over the last few decades that the Supreme Court has ruled on regarding abortion laws. Change the make up of the court and the outcome of cases may change. Who nominates Supreme Court justices? The President. It is absolutely an issue.

Women don't think Romney can snap his fingers and make abortion illegal, but they should certainly be worried about whom he might nominate to federal courts.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

So it seems Barry's bad performance was Jim Lehrer's fault...Have to blame someone besides TOTUS..

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/l...r-reviews-135751955--election.html


Anf this spin article is a classic...

For Obama, words not said in debate spoke the loudest

Quote:
Obama did not mention Romney's work at Bain Capital, the private equity firm whose role in sending thousands of jobs overseas has been cited by Obama's campaign as it has portrayed Romney as a job-killer.

Obama resisted chiding Romney about the former Massachusetts governor's reluctance to release more than two years of his income taxes. Democrats have questioned whether Romney - who has a fortune estimated at up to $250 million - is hiding something about his finances and why he keeps millions of dollars in offshore accounts.

But Obama's most startling omission was not uttering a phrase that has dominated the campaign for much of the past two weeks: "47 percent."

So since he did not utter them then we will say them for him just incase you forgot that Romney worked for Bain or that he said something about 47%....LOL



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
Oh what a place the world would be without the US playing police. What language would you be speaking if they were not? Russian? Or German? Make your pick.
The world needs U.S. military power for the world to run somewhat smoothly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. This is not an American perspective. This is an international affairs perspective.

I would be speaking Finnish. Nazis had really nothing against us Finns and on the other hand United States kept supplying Soviet Union while they were fighting with us, maybe Germans would have actually won their war against Soviet Union if US had not been supporting them.

World did run just fine before United States even existed, things would sure be different and some countries would not exist and some others would, but so what? Life would continue as usual.

Also who says that world really is running smoothly right now? Extreme poverty, violence, wars, all this rubbish all around the world, and usually United States has only made things worse like in case of Iraq and Vietnam, wouldn't say that US actions would have made things any better in Afghanistan either.

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
BOTH Pres Obama and Romney will attack Iran if they continue with their Nuclear program. Both do not want to attack if they can stop it before it gets to a point of no return. A nuclear armed Iran is bad for everyone. Especially Europe!

Nah, although Iran maybe ruled by religious fanatics they are not mad. They would just use nuclear weapon as a defense against Israel, not as a weapon as that would 100% surely cause invasion and total destruction of Iran.

Even if they were mad enough to use it they would obviously nuke Israel or some other non European American ally, so not really our problem.

Besides, what gives Pakistan right to have a nuclear weapon? In my opinion they are just as fked up as Iran, if not even more.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
So it seems Barry's bad performance was Jim Lehrer's fault...

The source you gave says nothing of the kind.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
For Obama, words not said in debate spoke the loudest

There was a pretty good comment today by a talking head: Obama played Prevent Defense. How many games have you seen lost when the leader played prevent defense?

While a lot of people believe that this first debate will forever change the outcome we do need to remember the first Bush-Kerry Debate where Kerry wiped the floor with Bush. Then things changed.

Maybe this is a new trend from a President. Trying to be Presidential.

We also need to remember that Bush pulled his game up big time after that first debate.

On the points that Obama missed (like the 47%) the DNC can pick that up. Far more expensive than delivering the line in a debate, but now needed.

Romney also seemed to have shaken that Etch-A -Sketch a bit, looking like a moderate. That might well shake up a lot of really far right conservatives who were not impressed with Romney in the first place. It will be interesting to see if there is some pushback on issues Romney presented.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 77):
And Obama has done such a good job the last years

He has. How many terrorist leaders have we gotten rid of thanks to increased drone strikes? That's Obama's doing.

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
I am just saying women's rights is NOT an issue.

Unless you're a woman, I'm not sure you're qualified to make that statement.

We all have our own issues; I'm a big believer in government policy that keeps general aviation strong, I know it's not an issue on the national stage, but it's an issue for me because I'm in that field. If the women of the country (50+% of the population) believe that women's rights is an issue, then it's an issue.

Quoting aloges (Reply 81):
How so? The Iranians know as well as everyone else that actually using the Bomb would mean their annihilation. So if they build one, it will be nothing but a deterrent

It's not just Iran. If Iran gets the bomb, Saudi Arabia will get it - that's an absolute certainty. And who after them? Egypt? Jordan? What you'll end up with is a nuclear middle east, and thinking that the Cold War idea of MAD will work is very dangerous. The Middle East is a region where conflict, particularly of the armed variety, is not the exception but the norm. It's a region where instability, both between countries and within countries, is a fact of day-to-day life. That's not a recipe for success when nuclear weapons are involved.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 88):
That was a two hour debacle of not answering the question so they could get to their canned responses, with a few pointless stories sprinkled in to try and come across as normal human beings. Romney seemed to have learned his lines a bit better than Obama, but neither impressed me.

I will give them credit that they didn't make any ad hominem attacks as far as I can tell. The next two debates may get a bit less civil as the election draws closer.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 90):
Nazis had really nothing against us Finns

Hitler would have bent you over in a heartbeat if it suited his purposes...ask your Norwegian friends about that.

For my part I hope I am always somebody that Nazis "have something against"!

Quoting pvjin (Reply 90):
on the other hand United States kept supplying Soviet Union while they were fighting with us, maybe Germans would have actually won their war against Soviet Union if US had not been supporting them.

The USSR was pissed off at the United States FOR SUPPORTING FINLAND in the Winter War. After Barbarossa the US rightly supported the USSR against the Nazis...and Finland made the decision to align with the Nazis in an attempt to get your territory back in the Continuation War. I don't blame Finland for doing that, but you sure can't blame us for continuing to support the USSR against Hitler either. Countries do what they have to do and sometimes it's the "lesser of two evils."

Speaking of which, if you are suggesting that it would have been better to let Hitler win against the USSR I think that is short sighted. If the USSR hadn't worn the Wermacht down I'm not confident that the rest of the Allies would have had the stamina to force the Third Reich to an unconditional surrender. Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan might also have been able to survive. Sorry, but I don't see how a positive outcome for Finland in a border dispute with the USSR would outweigh the unbelievably terrible consequences of an Axis victory in WW2.

[Edited 2012-10-04 10:32:35]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 70):
I'd like to hear my leaders talking about how we're going to return to a position of prominence in science and engineering (home grown vice imported 'smart people'),

Cut defense, so we can all become world leaders in engineering lattes and burritos.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 70):
We just don't talk about excellence anymore, and it shows.

No we don't. We assume and expect excellence, and that's what shows.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 84):
If you're already rich and raking in millions who cares if you have to pay a little more or less in taxes?

They will. Raising taxes during a bad economy is a bad idea, for anyone. Oh, offshore banks will care too.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 84):
The only reason these rich people are complaining is because of their absolute greed.

Gordon Gekko was right.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 84):
And, by the way, people making $250k are not middle class. By all means I would consider these people in the "rich" class.

$250,000 per year for a household isn't rich. For an individual, it's a pretty nice life, but often reality works differently.

First of all, a quarter million per year is not a ton of money to start with. All those exotic cars you see in hip hop videos? You might be able to buy one, used, on that salary if you don't spend much on other stuff. A $250k per year income is really more like two educated, mid career salaries rather than CEOs. People like that probably have a mortgage on a decent suburban home, might be raising children (possibly in private school), have a couple of (not so exotic) cars which are probably able to be replaced every few years, and should be putting a significant portion of their money towards retirement and probably college savings.

The simple fact is that $250,000 per year is really not rich. Comfortable yes, but not rich.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 84):
The USA didn't save the world from speaking German and they wouldn't have joined in WW2 if Japan hadn't made the mistake of attacking us.

Actually consensus among historians is that it was just a matter of time and Pearl Harbor forced the issue.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 86):
I can assure you that the border remained on a 'war footing,' complete with fortifications, artillery emplacements, etc., for many years. And though the British played their part, I can further assure you that about 70% of the 'manpower' and 'firepower' needed to confront the Russians (known in those days as the Red Army) was provided by the United States.

Patton was ready to keep on rolling to Moscow, which those above him squashed. Unfortunately for Patton, he rolled into a truck instead.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 87):
And I believe he has just done his last Presidential Debate. Hopefully.

Lehrer needs to be placed in the same crypt where Larry King decomposes. Good on the candidates for stomping the old bastard.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 94):
Hitler would have bent you over in a heartbeat if it suited his purposes...ask your Norwegian friends about that.

Yeah sure, but Stalin would have done that even if he couldn't have gotten any real benefit from that.

I am of course glad that Nazis lost the war but also I think that even without them continuation war would have happened sooner or later through Soviet attack, and without support from Germany Finland would have probably lost its independence.

And yeah I understand why US supported USSR in their struggle against Nazis, though in the end Stalin was of course just as evil as Hitler, he just killed people randomly instead of killing certain ethnic groups.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
I am just saying women's rights is NOT an issue. The left wants all women to believe it is. They are brainwashing women to think Romney can magically and illegally take away their rights. It makes no sense and how women are actually falling for it is even more unbeleiveable.

The left has nothing to do, the nuts on the right do all the work.

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
Oh what a place the world would be without the US playing police. What language would you be speaking if they were not? Russian? Or German? Make your pick.
The world needs U.S. military power for the world to run somewhat smoothly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. This is not an American perspective. This is an international affairs perspective.

Sorry but I wasn't born in 1945. My parents weren't born either. The world today is a very different world. Several countries, including mine, have nuclear weapons, air forces, etc.

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
A nuclear armed Iran is bad for everyone. Especially Europe!

Let us decide that for ourselves. We have intelligence too. In fact I just learned that France has the most spy satellites after the US (a consequence of the trick the US played on us during the first gulf war).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 86):
So, believe me, there was a very grave risk, until 45 years after the end of WW2, that a lot of Europe might still have ended up 'speaking Russian.'

I disagree. During the cold war we even had tactical nukes to fight invaders.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 95):
Cut defense, so we can all become world leaders in engineering lattes and burritos.

Defense is going to be cut, but it will be done rationally, just like when General Powell worked with President Clinton.

I've lost count of how many Exxon commercials I have seen on the need to increases our investment in math and science education. Exxon, BTW, is not a left wing company.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 95):
$250,000 per year for a household isn't rich[/quote]


Not sure what your definition of rich is, but 250 K puts you in the top 1.5% f households (single or married in the US.).
I consider that rich. And with proper money management, you wouid be amazed at what you can afford.



[quote=Ken777,reply=98]I've lost count of how many Exxon commercials I have seen on the need to increases our investment in math and science education. Exxon, BTW, is not a left wing company.
Math and science are not the problem in the US. the issue is that it is cheaper to import H1B's and replace US workers . Most folks I know of in science and engineeering encourage their kids to find another career due to the offshoring and wage stagnation.

[Edited 2012-10-04 12:30:01]

[Edited 2012-10-04 12:31:42]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 90):
on the other hand United States kept supplying Soviet Union while they were fighting with us, maybe Germans would have actually won their war against Soviet Union if US had not been supporting them.

It is kind of disgusting who we have to be 'friends' with from time to time.

Which actually leads nicely back to politics and the debate!


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 68):
How many debates between the two Presidential nominees/candidates are there in total?

4 total, IIRC. Two more Presidental debates and 1 VP debate.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 68):
It seems that one debate is certainly not enough to discuss all the matters of duty that a US President needs to accomplish and for the voters to evaluate his/her capability to do so.

There are a lot of issues to be covered in debates. It is impossible to cover everything in one debate. The war on terrorism has not yet been covered.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 62):

I hope US voters will still be intelligent enough to choose Obama, no rational man wants another George W Bush into power.

Are you saying we're stupid? Our elections are not your call. You're not even a registered voter, let alone a U.S. citizen.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinedallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Wow, Romney just wiped the floor with Obama. I didn't expect it to be that one sided. That was as bad as Reagan vs Carter, a total 1st round TKO by Romney


B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

Good news, everyone! Big Bird lives on, no matter who is elected:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GByZ0TtBEkM



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 101):
Are you saying we're stupid? Our elections are not your call. You're not even a registered voter, let alone a U.S. citizen.

No, not those who actually get some real benefit from economics politics of Romney, mainly rich and other better than average doing people. However then those who vote for him because they think that he would be somehow solving all the economical problems, unemployment and all that, I can't really think that they are anything else than either stupid or uneducated. Also then there are those people who still live cold war times and vote Romney for his George W Bush style foreign policy, those are the worst.

Yes I can't vote in those elections but I still like to comment them as they do unfortunately also affect rest of the world.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 104):

Obama is no better......at all. But then again, what we do here is not your concern. You have no say.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 104):
However then those who vote for him because they think that he would be somehow solving all the economical problems, unemployment and all that, I can't really think that they are anything else than either stupid or uneducated.

The Democratic economic plan is a mishmash of strategies that have failed in the past:
1. Economic stimulus: the New Deal failed during the Great Depression and Obama's has also failed to end this recession. It did succeed in adding to the deficit.
2. Raising Taxes: bad idea during a down economy. FDR raised taxes during the Great Depression and in that way managed to prolong the downturn. In a bad economy, people are either afraid they will have less money or actually have less money and the government coming to take more of it exacerbates both issues.
3. Cut defense spending: we've seen the results from stagnation of national security. Not to mention that the pattern is pretty obvious: end a war, start a recession. That said, overseas combat operations should be drawn to a close, but the forces will still need to be retooled and upgraded.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
1. Economic stimulus: the New Deal failed during the Great Depression and Obama's has also failed to end this recession. It did succeed in adding to the deficit.

Modern day worldwid economical crisis are way too big to be solved that easily, Romney wouldn't have done any better.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
3. Cut defense spending: we've seen the results from stagnation of national security. Not to mention that the pattern is pretty obvious: end a war, start a recession. That said, overseas combat operations should be drawn to a close, but the forces will still need to be retooled and upgraded.

"Defense", hah. Last time US soldiers defended their homeland was during WW2, after that your military has been only used to attack other countries. Best defense would be simply letting other countries do what they want and stopping interfering in their politics and other things other than in extreme cases such as genocide.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
Most folks I know of in science and engineeering encourage their kids to find another career due to the offshoring and wage stagnation.

Odd that as I have read bout doctors discouraging their kids from going into medicine. And it's not so much related to ObamaCare, but in the changing nature of medical practices. In a lot of cities there are hospital owned companies that hire the doctors (or buy out their practice) and Docs basically become employees of the hospital. Corporate medical care.

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 102):
That was as bad as Reagan vs Carter

Or the first Bush -v- Kerry debate.   

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
The Democratic economic plan is a mishmash of strategies that have failed in the past:

Compared to the last Republican economic plan of guns & butter & cake?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
1. Economic stimulus:

Build, Baby, Build. I'm a strong believer in spending some major money now on infrastructure. Programs paid for by the government and carried out by private industry. Romney has absolutely nothing in his economic plan (cutting taxes for the rich) that comes close to investing in infrastructure.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
2. Raising Taxes:

Since the tax rates in Clinton's years were more successful than the Bush rates it is hard to argue against using Clinton's rates as the goal we need. Will take a few years for all points to get back, but we can start with Obama's proposals.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
3. Cut defense spending:

Take a look at the Republican who understood the military more than any other Republican: Ike. Remember how he warned us about the military-industrial complex? That's something Romney doesn't seem to understand, just like a lot of other hard right politicians.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Guys can we knock off fighting about the end of the second world war please?

Not really relevant to the discussion IMHO.

What is relevent is Al Gore blaming Obummers bad performance on the altitude in Denver.

Sure Al it was the air



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3783 times:
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Was awesome seeing Obama fumble and Romney kill him in the debates. A couple more of these and we might see a Mormon as POTUS.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
Modern day worldwid economical crisis are way too big to be solved that easily, Romney wouldn't have done any better.

So you could spend a ton of money and not solve the problem, or you could not spend a ton of money and not solve the problem. Seems like an easy decision.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
Last time US soldiers defended their homeland was during WW2, after that your military has been only used to attack other countries.

Oh boy, is that wrong. You're a nice addition to the Anet anti-American brigade.

It used to be that defense meant keeping people out, building forts and all that. But the world changed.

Staying home and not bothering anyone so they don't bother you sounds like a great idea. The problem is that it failed. It failed in Beirut in 1982. It failed over Lockerbie. It failed in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam. It failed in Aden Harbor. And then it failed in New York and Washington D.C.

The real tragedy is that it took all of that to push America into becoming serious about fighting terrorism. When people say "homeland security" we are referencing the intent, not the activity. Maintaining homeland security means many people working hard very far away from the homeland.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Build, Baby, Build. I'm a strong believer in spending some major money now on infrastructure.

Things need to be built because they're needed, not because Uncle Sam dropped off a big sack of money.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Since the tax rates in Clinton's years were more successful than the Bush rates it is hard to argue against using Clinton's rates as the goal we need.

You have it backwards. The tax rates worked because of the economy, not the other way around. Raising taxes in a weak market is just stupid.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Take a look at the Republican who understood the military more than any other Republican: Ike. Remember how he warned us about the military-industrial complex?

   He made that comment in the midst of one of the three recessions during his term. Not to mention that defense spending as a percentage of GDP has gone down since Ike's term.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 109):
What is relevent is Al Gore blaming Obummers bad performance on the altitude in Denver.

Forgive me for asking, but why is that relevant?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
"Defense", hah. Last time US soldiers defended their homeland was during WW2, after that your military has been only used to attack other countries. Best defense would be simply letting other countries do what they want and stopping interfering in their politics and other things other than in extreme cases such as genocide.


I think your assessment is a little simplistic:

- 1950s: US troops defended South Korea as part of a UN effort when it was attacked by North Korea and then China, backed quite directly by the USSR. I don't think anyone wants to argue that the South is not better off today thanks to our efforts there. Should we have let North Korea "Do what they wanted?"

1960s-70s: US troops defended South Vietnam, a sovereign nation under attack by North Vietnam (BTW also trying to Un-F a colonial mess left by France). Though ultimately a losing effort politically (because Congress prevented the President from ensuring that the Hanoi government abided by the peace treaty that they signed), one could very easily define that conflict as the point where the US broke the back of the entire concept of global Communism. A worthy objective to anyone who believes in free enterprise and the worth of the individual. Who is better off today, South Korea or South Vietnam? Should we have let North Vietnam just "Do what they wanted?"

1980s: Assertion of US power against states like Iran and Libya and massive military expansion caused the USSR to bankrupt themselves trying to keep up. The only people crying about this today are Russians with a misplaced sense of nostalgia. Are East Germans not better off today in a unified Germany? What about Poland? Should we have just let the USSR "Do what they wanted?"

1990s: US intervention against genocide in the Balkans, in concert with allied nations. Intervention to protect relief efforts in Somalia which proved ultimately futile. Should we have let Milosevic "Do what he wanted?"

2000s: US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was an internationally sanctioned response to the 9/11 attacks. I strongly disagree with how the attack on Iraq was conducted, but IMO it is still an open question whether or not it will turn out to have been a good thing in the long run. Right now I don't see anybody putting up new statues of Saddam Hussein.


Overall, it seems to me that you just can't accept the fact that World War 2 and then 9/11 fundamentally changed the way the US views the world. Where we previously sought isolationism in the Western Hemisphere, or were content to have eliminated the USSR, we now proactively seek to guide the course of world events in our favor...as did the USSR before they went toes up and as China will as they gradually achieve the capability. It probably won't be our strategy forever but that's how it is now.

I agree with you in the sense that we're in danger of "staying too long at the party" and continuing in a unilateral/leadership role that is no longer needed or welcome. Not sure we are there yet.

And all of this is ultimately the result of the European powers' colonialism and inability to manage their political affairs successfully in the first half of the 20th Century. Europe created the USA that you see today. It is what it is.

[Edited 2012-10-04 16:04:51]

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3721 times:

Romney had a better presence during the debate and that is a fact. He spoke clearly and didn't stall as much as Obama when speaking. I do not agree with his ideas but at least he communicated them better than his opponent. Obama did not look very confident.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 97):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 86):
So, believe me, there was a very grave risk, until 45 years after the end of WW2, that a lot of Europe might still have ended up 'speaking Russian.'

I disagree. During the cold war we even had tactical nukes to fight invaders.

France may have had that, but NAV20 has a point. Many countries in Europe stayed away from communist influence just because of US intervention.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Build, Baby, Build.

Not a bad plan, as long as they focus on infrastructure that is needed and not on useless high-speed rail -type projects.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 105):
what we do here is not your concern

Correct, even though when the US sneezes, many people around the world can catch a cold. This is why the Presidential race is of such interest to the rest of the world. Why do you think foreign media even bother broadcasting these debates?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 105):
You have no say

Correct, as he cannot vote. But this is a public and international forum and everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. We've been over this before.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 114):
Romney had a better presence during the debate and that is a fact.

If you mean presence as a smarmy snake oil salesman, then sure. Oh and that other guy he was with too.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 115):
If you mean presence as a smarmy snake oil salesman, then sure.

I mean that he had better posture and he spoke clearly without losing his line of thought and expression. He did tick a lot of boxes as far as "Presidential appearance" goes, that's all.

I do not agree with his points and he still failed to be specific regarding his plans.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

One of the more substantive issues I noticed in the debate as well was that Obama was trying to make a lot of points as if he was candidate Obama instead of President Obama. More specifically when he was droning on about the tax breaks for oil companies as if he hasn't been president the past 4 years, I mean, if that had truly been an important issue to him, he's had ample time to address it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
1. Economic stimulus:

Build, Baby, Build. I'm a strong believer in spending some major money now on infrastructure.

Isn't that what we spent nearly a trillion dollars on 3 and a half years ago? What happened to all of it and why is the idea being recycled again?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 106):
2. Raising Taxes:

Since the tax rates in Clinton's years were more successful than the Bush rates it is hard to argue against using Clinton's rates as the goal we need.

Right, because the roaring economy and Dot Com boom had nothing to do with that. Clinton himself doesn't even think we should be raising taxes right now.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 69):
And it has an effect on everything else, for example how can you take risk as an entrepreneur knowing that if you fail you may end up with nothing, not even health ?

I'm not saying healthcare isn't an issue that should be addressed, but it's not the end-all be-all issue. J'adore la France and I know you guys have a great healthcare system, but France hasn't exactly been ground-zero for entrepreneurs for a couple decades now.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 114):
France may have had that, but NAV20 has a point. Many countries in Europe stayed away from communist influence just because of US intervention.

What countries ? In fact communism had a strong influence in France (the country where it was born) and communists have been in parliament non stop since the early 20th century, a fact the US doesn't like of course. The US forced the communists out of the French government before sending the money of the Marshal plan, for example. And Reagan couldn't believe it when Mitterrand was elected and had communist ministers. As for decolonization, the US was instrumental in pushing for it, and to this day affirms that some parts of France are colonies, while having no problem with, say, Puerto Rico.

BMI727 : you can argue, like SmittyOne, that the US interventions were justified (of course, he didn't mention all the nice ones in Latin America), but you can't argue that the US was minding its own business and terrorism came out of nowhere, that doesn't pass muster.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

If a big push was made to make our military more efficient, we could cut a ton of spending, trust me, it makes me cringe seeing some of the waste.

I'm pretty much a non-interventionist, but even if you believe we need a worldwide military presence, there is still a lot of fat we can trim.

The defense budget can be cut without much pain... unfortunately, the first things to go will probably be things like retirement for our troops.

I do encourage our international posters to be a bit more understanding. Politics over here are a lot further right, just because you don't agree with a candidate doesn't make the people that vote for him stupid. If you do, don't be mad when your governments get criticized for having "too many entitlements..." it's just a difference of culture. I know people, both left and right, that are very smart, rational people, even if I don't agree with them



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 105):
But then again, what we do here is not your concern.

What goes on in the most influential country in the world is everyone's concern.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 117):
I mean, if that had truly been an important issue to him, he's had ample time to address it.

With an unfriendly House and a non-filibuster-proof Senate? You can do certain things with that, other things you'll need to keep raising political capital for.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 117):
I'm not saying healthcare isn't an issue that should be addressed, but it's not the end-all be-all issue. J'adore la France and I know you guys have a great healthcare system, but France hasn't exactly been ground-zero for entrepreneurs for a couple decades now.

You're talking about a place with a 75% top tax rate and a VAT on top of that. For free healthcare, that's pretty damn expensive. Such tax rates are disgusting and I never want to see the US return to that. If that's what the great healthcare system costs, we should probably shoot for good enough instead.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 118):
BMI727 : you can argue, like SmittyOne, that the US interventions were justified (of course, he didn't mention all the nice ones in Latin America), but you can't argue that the US was minding its own business and terrorism came out of nowhere, that doesn't pass muster.

It's naive and idiotic to believe that we can just take our stuff and go home and we'll be safe. That's not how it would work. People talk about non-interventionalism like 9/11 could have been prevented by draping a large chain across New York Harbor. Isolationism is dead.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 83):
Dumb and Dumber.


Three Harvard Degrees. They sure are dumb. You can call them boring and dull but dumb is one thing these men are not.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 87):
That is going to hit many in the middle class pretty hard and is a huge gift to the wealthy. A guy like Romney with a $20 million income for the year will get a $4,000,000.00 tax cut, with minimal impact on their deductions. Need to cut the amount of the standard deduction? Not a problem for a guy with a $4,000,000.00 tax cut.


You really think he will hurt the middle class more than he would force the upper class to pay? You think he cares that much about his own taxes and his friends taxes? He cares about the country. He is not stupid he knows what will help and what wont. He knows he is rich and he knows people that make a lot of money can afford to pay taxes. I just do not get this argument.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 88):
Women don't think Romney can snap his fingers and make abortion illegal, but they should certainly be worried about whom he might nominate to federal courts.


That is where I differ. I hope that whoever is selected as a justice follows the law and that's it. Politics needs to be out of the court room. Naive? Sure but that is my hope. I do not see Roe. v. Wade overturned.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 104):
However then those who vote for him because they think that he would be somehow solving all the economical problems, unemployment and all that, I can't really think that they are anything else than either stupid or uneducated.


Becuase the other guy running (Pres Obama) is doing such a fantastic job at fixing the economy right?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
Or the first Bush -v- Kerry debate.


Agreed. This is just one debate. Something Romney really needed for momentum and money but very very far from something that can change the election completely.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 117):
More specifically when he was droning on about the tax breaks for oil companies


I hate that point. It is only a point for the average Americans to say oh yea those big evil companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people get tax breaks! How mean. 4 billion dollars is what he is complaining about? 4 billion dollars. A. that is nothing to the oil companies so change it make them pay. B. That is even less to the government. What are they going to do with 4 billion more dollars. Make some failed cars or solar panels?



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 122):
Three Harvard Degrees. They sure are dumb. You can call them boring and dull but dumb is one thing these men are not.

Yeah I never understood this. Maybe they are not as shiny as a gem as other politicians, but they still are incredibly smart, successful men. I just try and ignore people when they say stuff like that because it's just so far out there it's not even worth it

Quoting flymia (Reply 122):
Becuase the other guy running (Pres Obama) is doing such a fantastic job at fixing the economy right?

What drives me nuts (and both sides do this) is no matter what the problem, there is a huge, detailed explanation of why it's the other side's fault. These arguments are so complex you can never argue them out all the way. It would be nice to see accountability from both sides and from all 3 branches of government (well not sure if the judicial branch really gets involved in politics but I won't go there)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 113):

What about Poland? Should we have just let the USSR "Do what they wanted?"

Uhm, the West did let the USSR do whatever it wanted for 50 years. The Poles were the first to fight the Germans and punched above their weight for the Allies throughout the war.
.
In return, they were sold down the river into the loving arms of the Soviet Union along with the rest of Eastern Europe.
.
The "America saves Europe" view of WW2 is believed mostly in America and is especially mocked in Eastern Europe to this day.
.
Google Western Betrayal.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 113):

we now proactively seek to guide the course of world events in our favor..

Honesty!
That is a perfectly acceptable summary.
.
But the mental masturbation (we are 'reluctantly' the world's policeman, people would hate America even if America didn't interfere overseas, etc...) is just emotionally appealing candy to justify what you here honesty admit: America seeks to influence other nations, even going so far as to intervene militarily, because it seeks to guide world events in its favor.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 119):

Politics over here are a lot further right, just because you don't agree with a candidate doesn't make the people that vote for him stupid. I

Political beliefs are not stupid and both candidates have appealing qualities.
.
However, there is no small amount of self-serving beliefs and poor understandings of other nations/cultures/religions based on a narrative of world history and current events that seeks solely to justify what the US has done and continues to do, even as the facts so obvious to the rest of the world prove otherwsie. For instance, there are still quite a few people who think 9/11 took place without any US provocation in the Middle East whatsoever.

Pu


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 118):
What countries ?

Aesma, I think I see the problem; it's the age gap.

You give your age as 26/35. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that you probably weren't around at the time that this happened; or if you were, you were a very small child:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification

The problem in those days was not 'terrorism' - it was the fact that the whole of Eastern Europe, including a large area of Germany, consisted of Russian-dominated communist dictatorships. And that both sides didn't just have nuclear weapons, they were 'at readiness.' Sounds incredible now, but at that time the British government solemnly informed their people that they 'hoped' to be able to give them at least two minutes' warning of a nuclear attack.

So the United States didn't get widely involved in Europe in the interests of acting as some kind of 'world policeman' - it was simply the only world power that had the resources to 'deter' Communist Russia and its satellites from setting out to conquer and occupy the whole of Western Europe. They've succeeded up to now; but it's worth bearing in mind that the weapons are still there, on both sides - which is why the USA still maintains a substantial presence in the region.

Nowadays, of course, the threat of nuclear war has receded, and we're stuck with 'the War on Terror' instead. But, once again, the USA is the only place with the resources (and will) to fight it on a global scale. And it's just as well, for all our sakes, that someone is........

Hopefully the third presidential debate, in which the topic will be 'foreign policy,' will throw some light on the intentions of both the candidates in that area. Until then, I'd be grateful if you'd moderate your constant claims that the United States is just 'throwing its weight about' for no good reason.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
"Defense", hah. Last time US soldiers defended their homeland was during WW2, after that your military has been only used to attack other countries.

Same applies to you, pvjin. Had Communist Russia succeeded in conquering the whole of Europe, Finland wouldn't have been 'unaffected.' They nearly took Finland over in 1941, when it was mainly Germany, of all places, that 'rescued' you. So you have every reason to be grateful to the USA too.

[Edited 2012-10-04 21:37:06]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
In return, they were sold down the river into the loving arms of the Soviet Union along with the rest of Eastern Europe.

Spin it anyway you'd like, and it's unfortunate how events transpired, but it was ultimately Stalin who continued to occupy Poland and held sham elections to force the communist government onto the Polish people.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
The "America saves Europe" view of WW2 is believed mostly in America and is especially mocked in Eastern Europe to this day.

Definitely not the case in Normandie.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
because it seeks to guide world events in its favor.

What major power ISN'T guilty of doing this, and furthermore what kind of government would knowingly let events transpire not in it's favor?

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
However, there is no small amount of self-serving beliefs

No, we just don't care.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
seeks solely to justify what the US has done and continues to do,

...and we don't care because we're sick of this constant tit-for-tat game with other nations, going back and forth with criticisms over who's wronged the world the least and thus has some ambiguous moral authority above others. We don't care because we believe that despite the mistakes and injustices that have been committed by the US, we have brought net good to the world and constant apologizing is not necessary when we provide billions and billions in foreign aid, host and largely fund the corrupt UN organization (which almost constantly runs contrary to US interests but we let it go on anyways), all on top of which we bankroll the IMF and World Bank.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
For instance, there are still quite a few people who think 9/11 took place without any US provocation in the Middle East whatsoever.

Well as Denmark discovered, it doesn't really take a whole lot to "provoke" the Middle East. I don't know a single American who believes we were just attacked in a vacuum, most see the attacks as a consequence of us being who we are, the largest representation of a secular, democratic, free society and our Middle East policies of supporting Israel and backing secular or non-extremist governments like Egypt, Bahrain, and KSA. Most Americans don't believe however that "we had it coming".


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 125):
Same applies to you, pvjin. Had Communist Russia succeeded in conquering the whole of Europe, Finland wouldn't have been 'unaffected.' They nearly took Finland over in 1941, when it was mainly Germany, of all places, that 'rescued' you. So you have every reason to be grateful to the USA too.

Whatever, now our politicians have already sold our independence to European Union and are destroying our welfare society anyway.
[
quote=flyguy89,reply=126]Well as Denmark discovered, it doesn't really take a whole lot to "provoke" the Middle East. I don't know a single American who believes we were just attacked in a vacuum, most see the attacks as a consequence of us being who we are, the largest representation of a secular, democratic, free society and our Middle East policies of supporting Israel and backing secular or non-extremist governments like Egypt, Bahrain, and KSA. Most Americans don't believe however that "we had it coming".[/quote]
United States supports any government that is friendly to them and buys their weaponry and has some important resources such as oil. For example Saudi Arabia is full of human right violations, yet United States has no problem with selling them loads of military stuff.

The ultimate truth is that United States representing itself as a defender of democracy, freedom and all that is total rubbish, United States had no problem with dealing people like Augusto Pinochet, Fulgencio Batista, Saddam Hussein (until he made his bad move), and list goes on.


But whatever, obviously it is not possible to change US policies so I guess Americans should just accept that they and Israel will be number 1 target of terrorism, entirely because of their own actions.

Too bad that terrorism is mostly oriented against US civilians. If those terrorists only attacked US soldiers I wouldn't really see anything wrong with it, though US forces do kill civilians all the time in these wars.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

It was kind of cute to see Obama completely exposed without the protection and coddling from the fawning media that he is accustomed to. No teleprompter, no awards to accept, no campaign contribution$ to accept, no praising fans, no Oprah, Sandra Fluke or Soledad O'Brian to hold his hand and ask the softball questions. I thought Obama's handlers would have better prepared Barack before they let him outside and go on stage before the camera.
I give major kudos to Mitt Romney for speaking out and taking on some unpopular positions. I don't expect Romney to ever be an exciting person but that is not something I look for in a President. We've had 3.5 years of a handsome, great speaking, charismatic leader that hasn't yielded any positive results for our country so it's time to pick someone new.
Obama seemed too preoccupied with 'being fair' but didn't explain how his 'fairness' policies would bring down the debt and create jobs.
I liked the "Big Bird" reference from Mitt Romney and yes Big Bird is popular enough to survive without borrowing more money from China.

Quoting comorin (Reply 58):
Much like when Al Gore whipped Ross Perot


Huh? When did that every happen?   
Al Gore and Ross Perot never faced off in a debate.
Al Gore faced off with Admiral Stockdale and Dan Quayle. Not exactly stiff competition there.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 109):
What is relevent is Al Gore blaming Obummers bad performance on the altitude in Denver.


That was hilarious!  
Quoting L-188 (Reply 109):
Sure Al it was the air


It was HOT air too!   

Quoting aloges (Reply 112):
Forgive me for asking, but why is that relevant?


It's relevant because Al Gore saw it necessary to make every excuse in the world to cover for Obama's poor performance in the debate.

[Edited 2012-10-05 02:48:12]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 118):
you can argue, like SmittyOne, that the US interventions were justified (of course, he didn't mention all the nice ones in Latin America)

Absolutely there have been plenty of cases where US involvement was negative and/or misguided. My point was simply that reality was a bit more complicated than how pvjin described it. A mix of good and bad.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
Uhm, the West did let the USSR do whatever it wanted for 50 years. The Poles were the first to fight the Germans and punched above their weight for the Allies throughout the war.
.
In return, they were sold down the river into the loving arms of the Soviet Union along with the rest of Eastern Europe.
.
The "America saves Europe" view of WW2 is believed mostly in America and is especially mocked in Eastern Europe to this day.
.
Google Western Betrayal.


Ironically, had we been better prepared militarily in 1940 and more willing to get involved in the war prior to the Pearl Harbor attack we might have been able to invade France earlier and liberated more of Europe than we did. But I fear that would have resulted in a war with the USSR because they were so paranoid after being stabbed in the back by Hitler. And, it would be precisely what everyone is condemning us for now. So we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

It is indeed tragic that Eastern Europe couldn't enjoy the benefits of things like the Marshall Plan after WW2 like Western Europe did, but the blame for that lays on the doorstep of the USSR, not the US.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
Honesty!
That is a perfectly acceptable summary.

As was my intention.

Quoting pu (Reply 124):
America seeks to influence other nations, even going so far as to intervene militarily, because it seeks to guide world events in its favor.

True.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 127):
United States supports any government that is friendly to them and buys their weaponry and has some important resources such as oil. For example Saudi Arabia is full of human right violations, yet United States has no problem with selling them loads of military stuff.

The ultimate truth is that United States representing itself as a defender of democracy, freedom and all that is total rubbish, United States had no problem with dealing people like Augusto Pinochet, Fulgencio Batista, Saddam Hussein (until he made his bad move), and list goes on.

Congratulations? You don't like US policy, we get that. Not sure what to say to your 'idealistic disappointment' other than that the real world does not match the silly stories that most people and nations tell themselves to feel better about what they do in their own interest.

I think it is a fair statement that as flawed as it might be, the US is pursuing an alternative to the worldview held by Islamic Fundamentalists in the Middle East, just as we did with Soviet Communism...and that alternative is more consistent with freedom and liberty. Tell me who has done more toward that end?


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 122):
I hate that point. It is only a point for the average Americans to say oh yea those big evil companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people get tax breaks! How mean. 4 billion dollars is what he is complaining about? 4 billion dollars. A. that is nothing to the oil companies so change it make them pay. B. That is even less to the government. What are they going to do with 4 billion more dollars. Make some failed cars or solar panels?

It should also be noted that the US government makes more money of a gallon of gasoline than the oil companies. Yet it still loves to scapegoat the big evil oil companies.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 130):
I give major kudos to Mitt Romney for speaking out and taking on some unpopular positions
Quoting Superfly (Reply 130):
Big Bird is popular enough to survive without borrowing more money from China.

I was surprised (pleasantly) by Romney's litmus test on whether something was worth borrowing from China to pay for.

That took some stones on his part.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 121):
People talk about non-interventionalism like 9/11 could have been prevented by draping a large chain across New York Harbor.

Basic airport security and intelligence could have EASILY prevented 9/11. You didn't need to spend hundreds of billions creating the department of homeland security.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 113):
I agree with you in the sense that we're in danger of "staying too long at the party" and continuing in a unilateral/leadership role that is no longer needed or welcome. Not sure we are there yet.

We're already there and have been there quite a while.

Quoting flymia (Reply 122):
You think he cares that much about his own taxes and his friends taxes?

Absolutely. His entire career has been about making himself and his friends as rich as possible and paying as little as taxes as possible.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
Staying home and not bothering anyone so they don't bother you sounds like a great idea. The problem is that it failed. It failed in Beirut in 1982. It failed over Lockerbie. It failed in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam. It failed in Aden Harbor. And then it failed in New York and Washington D.C.

Except during many of these events, the U.S. was spending record amounts on defense. The problem is that most U.S. defense spending has NOTHING to do with fighting terrorism. Even today, most of our military is total incapable and incompetent when dealing with terrorists....this is why we've been stuck in Afghanistan forever.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 133):
I was surprised (pleasantly) by Romney's litmus test on whether something was worth borrowing from China to pay for.

That took some stones on his part.



Absolutely.
If Big Bird can't stand on his own two feet without borrowing money from China, then it's time to skin 'em, dip him some batter and fry 'em up right!   
Sesame Street is very popular and makes money with their theme parks, books & CDs. Heck I still have my Sesame Street Fever LP and 8track tapes. I'm sure Big Bird will be fine. Car Talk and McLeaher report is also very popular and will do just fine. Terry Gross and Melissa Block will just have to get more exciting.

China probably thinks our leaders are insane for borrowing money to support programs that the US government pays for.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 130):
I was surprised (pleasantly) by Romney's litmus test on whether something was worth borrowing from China to pay for.

Name something that is clearly "not borrowed from China"?

How do you make the distinction? Does PBS money come from a different place than money for the VA? or money that pays for US Airforce flights over the Super Bowl?

Quoting luckyone (Reply 129):

It should also be noted that the US government makes more money of a gallon of gasoline than the oil companies. Yet it still loves to scapegoat the big evil oil companies.

Ohh intersting.. can you shoot me a link? Would love to see the numbers behind this one.

[Edited 2012-10-05 06:40:09]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Superfly: I'm not so sure Jim Is going to be so welcomed by the mcneil-audience after this debate


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 133):
Name something that is clearly "not borrowed from China"?

How do you make the distinction? Does PBS money come from a different place than money for the VA? or money that pays for US Airforce flights over the Super Bowl?

Good point, I think the idea is that we eventually pay our bills without borrowing money from China at all...live within our means by slashing anything from the budget that isn't worth going into hock for. Easier said than done of course.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
We're already there and have been there quite a while.

Opinions obviously vary on that. Of course we can observe everywhere and express discontent with the consequences of our current policy...where the consequences of US disengagement at this point are largely unknown. So it's far simpler to say we should back off than it is to actually roll the dice and see what numbers come up.

Personally I think it would be interesting to see what kinds of decisions other countries would make if there was no likelihood of US interference one way or the other. I predict that the EU and Russia would end up squaring off over some conflict in the Middle East. Ideally in 2014 for all the lovers of irony out there.

[Edited 2012-10-05 07:38:06]

User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 136, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 128):

So we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

I understand your point, but if the USA wants to justify foreign interventions with the "we're the world's policeman" mantra then it justifiably takes responsibility for both failures and successes. For every pat on the back for saving France it also earns an F for not answering the phone when Poland, Sudan etc. call for help...they called the world's policeman and the police didn't answer phone. Its ok to want the praise but criticism is the more natural human response.
.
There are many here arguing that allegdly honourable American motivations alone justify all outcomes, even its faiures. In short, if you're going to advertise your worldwide policing "duties" than you get to own the places where police were needed but didn't show up.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
Basic airport security and intelligence could have EASILY prevented 9/11

Very true, but the appeal of victory in old-fashioned territorial wars with invasions and tanks will keep useless defense programs in place for decades. The terrorism related to Northern Ireland lost appeal once the whole island of Ireland finally became a leading economy in Europe and a place where young angry men could get jobs and move out of their parent's house. Pu's theory is that this will be true in the Middle East as well....I think these two approahes will come out (force vs. investment) in the foreign policy presidential debates.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 129):
It should also be noted that the US government makes more money of a gallon of gasoline than the oil companies. Yet it still loves to scapegoat the big evil oil companies.

Very interesting!
It should also be noted that the US gets almost no oil from the Middle East, yet the oil there is sold to the public as a "strategic interest" even as America itself produces most of the oil it needs and gets most of the rest from Canada and the Americas.

Pu


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 137, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3321 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 135):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 133):
Name something that is clearly "not borrowed from China"?

How do you make the distinction? Does PBS money come from a different place than money for the VA? or money that pays for US Airforce flights over the Super Bowl?

Good point, I think the idea is that we eventually pay our bills without borrowing money from China at all...live within our means by slashing anything from the budget that isn't worth going into hock for. Easier said than done of course.

Exactly. That why "Big Bird get money from China" is just plain stupid.

Is being able to pay our bills without borrowing money (from China or another place) a good idea? I mean Wealth is built on credit - did you buy your house and car using cash?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 138, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 136):
I understand your point, but if the USA wants to justify foreign interventions with the "we're the world's policeman" mantra then it justifiably takes responsibility for both failures and successes. For every pat on the back for saving France it also earns an F for not answering the phone when Poland, Sudan etc. call for help...they called the world's policeman and the police didn't answer phone. Its ok to want the praise but criticism is the more natural human response.
.
There are many here arguing that allegdly honourable American motivations alone justify all outcomes, even its faiures. In short, if you're going to advertise your worldwide policing "duties" than you get to own the places where police were needed but didn't show up.

I for one DO NOT want to justify interventions as the world's policeman.

I want to justify interventions as the prerogative of a nation state pursuing its interests just as our predecessors did when they grabbed as much of the planet as they could through colonization and senselessly slaughtered each other over who should be 'King of the World'. Which ended up impacting the US very directly.

My point in this whole thread has been (in response to pvjin) that if anyone wants to poke the US in the eye over our current policies they ought to at least honestly acknowledge that we've done a lot of good too, especially when compared to the Euro-Asian disasters that elevated us to Superpower status to begin with.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 139, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 136):
I understand your point, but if the USA wants to justify foreign interventions with the "we're the world's policeman" mantra then it justifiably takes responsibility for both failures and successes. For every pat on the back for saving France it also earns an F for not answering the phone when Poland, Sudan etc. call for help...they called the world's policeman and the police didn't answer phone. Its ok to want the praise but criticism is the more natural human response.

The way the police acts should also be improved. Maybe why the Syrian rebels don't want US intervention ? The allies did far more damage in France than the Germans, for example. Several towns have been reduced to nothing including Brest that I often visit. And what about Vietnam ? Babies are still being born deformed thanks to US intervention.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 140, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 138):

I want to justify interventions as the prerogative of a nation state pursuing its interests just

If more Americans would adopt your explanation I feel there would be much less disagreement with others. Its the altruistic motivations ascribed to America (by some) which is so unpalatable.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 138):
My point in this whole thread has been (in response to pvjin) that if anyone wants to poke the US in the eye over our current policies they ought to at least honestly acknowledge that we've done a lot of good too, especially when compared to the Euro-Asian disasters that elevated us to Superpower status to begin with.

ehh...
Its better I think to keep the focus on current policy and not try to deflect criticism of it because WW2 and the Cold War turned out well for some (but by no means all) of the allies. The average age of everyone in the world is (last I checked) under 30 so most people are juddging America by its policies over the last 10 years, and rightfully so.

Pu


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 141, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 137):
did you buy your house and car using cash?

Every car I've owned I paid cash for it.

Mitt Romney's point was that the US can't continue to spend money on these nice, lofty programs when we're already in so much debt. Obama has been spending 8 times what the government brings in.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 137):
I mean Wealth is built on credit - did you buy your house and car using cash?

There is not a single bank in the country that will lend money for a home if the owner is in debt and has a debt greater than their income.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 142, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 141):
Mitt Romney's point was that the US can't continue to spend money on these nice, lofty programs when we're already in so much debt. Obama has been spending 8 times what the government brings in.

Not 8 times, he has been spending what was required under law and to expcape the recession we were in.
Romney has already backed of of this tax plan. I expect his spending plan to to take a hit as well. Especially when so many of the programs he wants to cherishly cut are someone else' cherised Government program.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 141):
There is not a single bank in the country that will lend money for a home if the owner is in debt and has a debt greater than their income.

Not sure your of your point here, but banks lend for time distribution of money. So as long as you have a job and reasonable debt, you do build wealth.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 143, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
So as long as you have a job and reasonable debt, you do build wealth.

Key word; "reasonable". Does $16 TRILLION sound "reasonable" to you?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 144, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 139):
The allies did far more damage in France than the Germans, for example. Several towns have been reduced to nothing including Brest that I often visit.

I think the answer to that is that if there's any risk that you may be involved in a war, you should prepare yourself so that you can win it, Aesma. I was a (very young) 'target' during the Second World War and a (largely-incompetent) 'territorial' volunteer who would have been involved in the third one, if it had happened. And I had lots of relatives who were involved in all theatres of WW2, from the 'Fall of France' through the North African campaign and the bombing of Germany to D-Day (the Normandy invasion in June 1944), and even including Burma and Malaya.

You're quite right that the Allies bombed the s**t out of Brest. But you possibly don't fully appreciate the reason? Which was that Brest was the main base for the German U-boat flotillas that sank untold thousands of tons of Allied shipping in the Atlantic; they started sinking (unarmed) merchant ships in 1940, and weren't put out of business until late 1943 - just in time to allow for US forces to assemble in numbers in Britain in time for D-Day in June 1944.

About 100,000 British and American aircrew died doing the job of bombing Germany and German bases in Occupied Europe.......... One uncle of mine survived two tours (60 trips) in RAF Bomber Command. He told me that, until very late in the war, they had to go over at night. Even then, they faced huge risks dealing with German night-fighters. He was actually an air-gunner; he said that he never saw any German aircraft until very late in the war, when they started to go over in daylight - going over at night, they only ever saw streams of tracer cannon-shells coming at them, they just had to 'fire at the flashes'........and the bomb-aimers never saw the 'targets' they bombed - flying at night, they just lined up on marker flares dropped by the Pathfinders......

As for my own experiences, my family lived in a village 20 miles outside London. Even so, we got bombed - as I've said, hearing bombs dropping is one of my earliest memories. But I was lucky, I survived; and we even made use of the bomb craters in the fields, they filled with water (the English climate being what it is) and we were able to have fun fishing for newts in them on the way home from school..........

Sorry to go on - but my basic point is that 'wars happen' - unless nations stay on their guard, and make sure that they are militarily strong enough to deter the 'other lot' from starting wars in the first place. France didn't do that; and so they got themselves occupied. That's the REAL reason for the (I agree, utterly tragic) destruction of Brest. And London, and Coventry, and many other British cities - and later Essen, and Berlin, and many other German ones.........

[Edited 2012-10-05 09:28:38]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 145, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3275 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 143):
Key word; "reasonable". Does $16 TRILLION sound "reasonable" to you?

No it isn't reasonable, but did it sound reasonable in 2001 and 2003 to cut taxes when we hadn't really made a dent in the existing debt? ....
Did it sound reasonable to go to war in 2 countries without coming up with how to pay for them,
Did it sound reasonable to write a prescription plan for seniors without a way to pay for it?
Did it sound reasonable to pay unemployment when millions of folks went out of work
Did it sound reasonable to pay for Social security for those that took early retirement instead of getting new jobs?
Did it sound reasonable to continue paying for wars with marginal outcomes when the US economy was in distress ?
Did it sound reasonable to continue paying for medicare under skyrocketing costs?
Did it sound reasonable to continue finding Defenseive R&D for equipment and training of soldiers?
Did it sound reasonable to extend Bush Tax cuts when the economy was not getting better?
Did it sound reasonable to cut social security wage garnishement while the economy was still down
Did it sound reasonable to fund bailouts of companies that were deemed to big to fail and essential to the US economy?
Did it sound reasonable that homeowners in many regions took a bath on housing and killed a whole industry and ruined banking and ivestments across the world , with repercussions to this day?

Of the above issues, the US Government and citizens decided that it was better for the Government to borrow and spend than to cut programs or raise taxes during a 12 year period.
We didn't get to 16 trillion based on "Obama's" economic policies. We got there based on multiple bills for spending which passed GOP and DEM hands.

The even bigger problem I have, is that the solution from the GOP is to have more "tax cuts"

Especially when the past 12 years exhibit a strong inclination of the Government under GOP and DEM conrol to not reduce spending at all when push comes to shove.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 146, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):

You can't justify today's actions based off the mistakes of the past. You should have said

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):
No it isn't reasonable

and ended it! The blame game is played way too much to justify one side doing something wrong. "Yeah this is bad, but the Democrats did it before!" etc



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 147, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):
did it sound reasonable in 2001 and 2003 to cut taxes when we hadn't really made a dent in the existing debt? ....



Government spending was seriously flawed then as well. Quit trying to turn this in to a Bush vs. Obama thread. I'm not defending Bush at all. You can post all the horrible things about Bush all day & night and I'll agree with you. There is no argument there. It seems as though Obama's defenders can only compare him to Bush. Not exactly the standard I'd want to measure up against.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 148, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 140):
If more Americans would adopt your explanation I feel there would be much less disagreement with others. Its the altruistic motivations ascribed to America (by some) which is so unpalatable.

Agreed, the idea that altruism prevails at the national level is asinine!

Quoting pu (Reply 140):
The average age of everyone in the world is (last I checked) under 30 so most people are juddging America by its policies over the last 10 years, and rightfully so.

The problem with being young is that anything bad that happens is perceived to be "The End Of The World". This whole discussion started when pvjin said that the US hadn't defended itself but rather just attacked other countries since WW2, which I thought should be put in context. That's why I listed some partially noble and/or arguably defensive activities that have taken place since then.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 149, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 146):
and ended it! The blame game is played way too much to justify one side doing something wrong. "Yeah this is bad, but the Democrats did it before!" etc
Quoting Superfly (Reply 147):
Government spending was seriously flawed then as well. Quit trying to turn this in to a Bush vs. Obama thread. I'm not defending Bush at all. You can post all the horrible things about Bush all day & night and I'll agree with you. There is no argument there. It seems as though Obama's defenders can only compare him to Bush. Not exactly the standard I'd want to measure up against.

Was going to try and explain to you, but no, I will just repost from my post since neither of you read it.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):
We didn't get to 16 trillion based on "Obama's" economic policies. We got there based on multiple bills for spending which passed GOP and DEM hands.

The even bigger problem I have, is that the solution from the GOP is to have more "tax cuts"

Especially when the past 12 years exhibit a strong inclination of the Government under GOP and DEM conrol to not reduce spending at all when push comes to shove.


[Edited 2012-10-05 09:50:20]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 150, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 143):
Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
So as long as you have a job and reasonable debt, you do build wealth.

Key word; "reasonable". Does $16 TRILLION sound "reasonable" to you?

No, it does not sound "reasonable". But he said "reasonable debt" and there are a lot of elements that are not that simple.

Is a debt that people PAY YOU (the debtor) for sound reasonable? I know Germany has had that situation and the USA is in a similar situation. If I am correct the interest that we are paying on current debt issues is near the rate of inflation which moves the debt towards one where we are essentially being paid for it. I do agree with you that the debt spending is out of control and needs to stop though. That's why I don't trust either of the main parties right now because neither is talking about actually cutting spending in a way that will do much, they both kick the can down the road to the future.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):
No it isn't reasonable, but did it sound reasonable in 2001 and 2003 to cut taxes when we hadn't really made a dent in the existing debt? ....

  
We should not have been "giving money back" when we didn't have the money to give back (yes, I know it's "our/my money" not the governments, but I/we elected the government and approved of their spending and creating the debt so we get to pay it back).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 147):
Government spending was seriously flawed

  

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 151, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 148):
The problem with being young is that anything bad that happens is perceived to be "The End Of The World".

Fine, I agree with you. I think this plays in the Presidential debates bcause Romney I suspect will argue your point that America is a great benefit to the world.
.
But,
.... according to CIA factbook the median age in Egypt is 24. In Iraq the median age is 21! Basically for most Egyptians, Iraqis, etc. their main lifetime experience is the USA at war in the Muslim world.
.
Its like the generation that grew up in the depression or in WW2: their whole worldview is largely explained by their formative experiences.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 148):
which I thought should be put in context.

I for one agree that taken over 236 years, America's net contribution is obviously positive. This is the Romney-esque America Is Exceptional idea... But taken over the lifetime of the average Egyptian, Iranian etc... America has been a Muslim-killing interventionist with few reedeming qualities.

Pu


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 152, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Anyway you slice it, government needs to cut spending PERIOD!
Tax increase or not, the spending needs to be reigned in.

Quoting tugger (Reply 150):
That's why I don't trust either of the main parties right now because neither is talking about actually cutting spending in a way that will do much, they both kick the can down the road to the future.



That is true but so far Romney is the only one talking about cutting spending, even it's just a drop in the bucket. Obama is too preoccupied with fairness and paranoid that someone might get rich. Even if everyone played fair and paid what Obama wants the rich to pay, it still wouldn't close the budget gap for even 1 fiscal year. Meanwhile, wealthy people are giving up their citizenship's and eventually Obama will run out of other people's money.
My guess is that IF elected, Romney will make some very unpopular decisions in gutting non-essential government services but can't talk about it because he'd be eaten alive for saying so on the campaign trail.
Kudos to Romney for at least talking about it because cutting government spending is in the right direction.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 153, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 151):

I think the biggest problem is too many Americans try and see the world from their viewpoint. From an Egyptian or Libyan, they have different values, cultures, allies, perceptions, etc and they may even be fed misinformation at some points. We can't just say "well they're wrong, they need to get with the program" because obviously, that isn't going to work.

For example, there are probably just as many people that see America and Israel as the good guys that occasionally make 'mistakes' that kill innocent Palestinians (who do unacceptable, evil suicide attacks) as there are who see the Palestinians as the good guys that do some things they don't agree with (like suicide bombers) but see the US/Israel as the evil occupiers. Both sides are surprisingly very close to each other in actual views, as many Americans do think they may 'meddle around too much,' but the way the issue is approach completely changes the story.

It will be interesting to see these foreign policy debates. As much as others may disagree, I don't see Romney as another GWB stereotype... I don't think he's violent, I don't think he wants war, I just think he's come across that way a bit to appease his base. I think he's a lot more moderate than he seems



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 154, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 152):
My guess is that IF elected, Romney will make some very unpopular decisions in gutting non-essential government services but can't talk about it because he'd be eaten alive for saying so on the campaign trail.

If he's not willing to talk about it now, he certainly won't do it in the next four years for fear of not getting re-elected. Romney will learn one hard lesson of Washington, it's easy to campaign on cutting spending, but nearly impossible to deliver. Once people see national parks closing, schools closing and lots of layoffs, they get angry fast. This is why conservative Presidents like Reagan, Bush I and Bush II were never able to cut overall government spending and perpetually ran deficits.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 155, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 152):
That is true but so far Romney is the only one talking about cutting spending, even it's just a drop in the bucket. Obama is too preoccupied with fairness and paranoid that someone might get rich. Even if everyone played fair and paid what Obama wants the rich to pay, it still wouldn't close the budget gap for even 1 fiscal year. Meanwhile, wealthy people are giving up their citizenship's and eventually Obama will run out of other people's money.
My guess is that IF elected, Romney will make some very unpopular decisions in gutting non-essential government services but can't talk about it because he'd be eaten alive for saying so on the campaign trail.
Kudos to Romney for at least talking about it because cutting government spending is in the right direction.

Well, the "preoccupied" problem that the Republican's have is that they want to cut taxes. And I do not think they can or should be doing that at this time. I do not think that cuts in spending will work if taxes are also cut. You can't believe that we will go in the "right direction" if we cut spending and decrease the monies coming in to pay down the debt/deficit.

I did like some of what Gov. Romney said during the debate on taxes, however I also do not think there can be any changes to taxes without someone ending up paying more. If the changes are "revenue neutral" I don't think it will fly because SOMEONE is going to get hit with and increase while someone else pays less, and if no one ends up paying more then we can't adequately address the debt we have. There is just no way to close a one trillion dollar budget gap without cuts AND returning taxes to where they were when the nation was doing well, the Bush I and Clinton rates.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 152):
Anyway you slice it, government needs to cut spending PERIOD!
Tax increase or not, the spending needs to be reigned in.

Absolutely agree.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-10-05 11:24:21]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 156, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
Except during many of these events, the U.S. was spending record amounts on defense.

Defense against the Soviet threat, not terrorism. Now with the end of the Cold War, we need not spend as much on that type of preparation but a lot of that will have to be replaced with spending on assets to defend against the terrorist threat.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
His entire career has been about making himself and his friends as rich as possible and paying as little as taxes as possible.

What else would you make a career about?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 157, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 156):
What else would you make a career about?

Serving my family and community.....

I have no idea what else one would a seek a career in.

Tugg