aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8353 posts, RR: 47 Posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2727 times:
Quote: (Reuters) - Turkey's military struck targets inside Syria on Wednesday in response to a mortar bomb fired from Syrian territory which killed five Turkish civilians, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's office said in a statement.
Not good, not good at all... hopefully this won't turn into an international war, the Syrian civil war is more than bad enough.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6284 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2701 times:
Syrian targets? As in the Syrian army not the rebels?
I think what is going on in Syria is horrible and something needs to be done at some point. Maybe other nations can put some pressure on. It shouldn't always be left to the U.S.
I agree an all out war would be a bad thing. At the same time how much force does Syria have? Any good estimates in how well they could defend themselves against a country like turkey?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10241 posts, RR: 40 Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2674 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): I wouldn't mind if Turkey downed a few Syrian planes and helicopters.
Quoting flymia (Reply 2): Syrian targets? As in the Syrian army not the rebels?
How do we know it wasn't the Western supported "rebels" who fired the mortars into 6urkey to start a larger conflict after being almost totally defeated in Syria... which in my mind makes more sense.
I wonder how this will escalate.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10241 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2659 times:
Don’t Interfere in Syria; Russia warns
MOSCOW- Russia warned NATO and other World & International powers that they should not intervene in Syria, or set up buffer zones between rebels and government forces.
Russia urged Tuesday the West not to "search for pretexts" in order to conduct direct operations in Syria while also calling on Damascus and Ankara to exercise restraint along their flashpoint border.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2659 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3): How do we know it wasn't the Western supported "rebels" who fired the mortars into 6urkey to start a larger conflict after being almost totally defeated in Syria... which in my mind makes more sense.
I wonder how this will escalate.
All the reports I have read indicate that Syria has been trying to regain the border crossings that the rebels have seized. The fact that Syria has missed quite a few times over the last few months has not gone unnoticed in Turkey, The latest incident was a bit too much for Turkey and they targeted the morter sites.
Sure there will be some confusion, but I am thinking Turkey knows who they are firing at. I think Syria has some serious issues to contend with(I know...understatement) that are spilling into neighboring countries and at this point, I wonder how long until the UN decides on a resolution for action.
Quoting flymia (Reply 2): Any good estimates in how well they could defend themselves against a country like turkey?
Based on how well they aim at border targers, I would imagine they would be in deep trouble. Their Air Force and Army, although formidable for the region, would not stand a chance against Turkey.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4946 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
Quoting aloges (Thread starter): Not good, not good at all... hopefully this won't turn into an international war, the Syrian civil war is more than bad enough.
Not good? About time someone gets in there and shuts everything down.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): but I wouldn't mind if Turkey downed a few Syrian planes and helicopters.
Yeah my point exactly. Everyone is just sitting around while the war spreads outside of Syria. That's not a good idea.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8353 posts, RR: 47 Reply 8, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2643 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7): Not good? About time someone gets in there and shuts everything down.
That's never gone wrong...
The problem is, IMHO, that any noteworthy NATO involvement would be seen as Western imperialism by many in Syria - and not without reason. And with Assad being Russia's last ally in the region, they aren't too keen on Western involvement, either.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 6): I wonder how long until the UN decides on a resolution for action.
Not a chance, I'm afraid - Russia would veto it, the reason being this:
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3854 posts, RR: 13 Reply 9, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 8): Not a chance, I'm afraid - Russia would veto it, the reason being this:
I agree. Russia's ability to use the naval base at Tartus being a large reason.
Hmmm....Turkish forces going after PKK targets in Northern Iraq/Kurdistan,now going after Syrian targets. Does this mark the return of the Ottoman Empire ?
Used to work with a Turkish colleague. He referred to the Ottoman Empire as "the good old days".
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4775 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3): How do we know it wasn't the Western supported "rebels" who fired the mortars into 6urkey to start a larger conflict after being almost totally defeated in Syria... which in my mind makes more sense.
We don't. And Turkey certainly supports the rebels.
Powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 481 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2576 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7): Not good? About time someone gets in there and shuts everything down.
If they want to kill each other over their own religious quarrels, why should we stop them? It's not like one side has a huge advantage over the other, let them slowly destroy their own country.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3): How do we know it wasn't the Western supported "rebels" who fired the mortars into 6urkey to start a larger conflict after being almost totally defeated in Syria... which in my mind makes more sense
I am sure they could pinpoint where those mortars where fired from.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): but I wouldn't mind if Turkey downed a few Syrian planes and helicopters.
Why? I want the Syrian army to be in a strong position so nobody can creep on the revolution like what happened in Egypt.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9): Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
Not a chance, I'm afraid - Russia would veto it, the reason being this:
I agree. Russia's ability to use the naval base at Tartus being a large reason.
That naval base has not even been used in months. Russians don't need this naval base for their 'global ambitions', because Russians don't have global ambitions. The Russians have one ambition, and that is to rape, pillage and plunder the country (Syria) for as much money as they can get right now. It's a cleptocracy. The old soviet model isn't quite the right one. People try to apply this old prism.
The reason why Russia, and China, continue/d to block UN resolutions is because they think it justifies and enhances (US.) America's sphere of influence all over the world, just as it did in Libya. The Russians and the Chinese believe, they do not want established a principle of international law, the idea that if you oppress your people, outside countries can come and send armies to depose you. It is not difficult to understand why.
If there were a protest in Moscow, once such a precedence has been set, this could be brought to the UN security council and a resolution could or would have to be brought on its way.
But the above aside. Imagine the Russians and the Chinese would do everything ''the West'' is saying and signed under the security council resolution. Then what? The world cavalry would charge in and bring order where chaos exists?
This is a pretty difficult situation. Libya is ten times the size of Syria, with one third the population which meant that the rebels had a lot of space to hide. They were able to take over one third of the country, they were able to take over Benghazi from there they could be resupplied. Syria is a very small country, very many people and a very strong army. To make matters worse: The ''opposition'' isn't even a homogenous group of people, but in itself heavily fragmented and no one knows at this point who is where and fighting how since when for what.
The Syrian rebels have not been able to hold a city for more than a day or two. Intervening in Syria would require very significant force - because the conflict is just not a left against right. The military option is less attractive than it was in Iraq. It is not clear it would succeed without enormous military intervention and because of the many conflicting interests, no one really knows where to start.
40% of Syria is minorities - Kurds, Alawites, Christians (Hizbollah on the other side).. and it doesn't appear that they have joined the opposition. The conflict right now appears to be Sunnits against Alawites. The problem is if you get involved in that, you're getting involved sectarian, regional conflict and then you could end up getting into a situation like Iraq, where when one side ends, the other side gets screwed. And then that produces its own dynamic which was the insurgency in Iraq. It is just not clear if a difference could be made effectively which is what you need to be able to do in a military operation.
You have Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the rebel forces on the one, the Assad regime, Hizbollah and Iran on the other hand. Besides this being a domestic conflict, this is a full blown proxy war. Which makes intervention even more difficult.
Personally, I don't think there's hope for Syria. Too many vested interests. Maybe Syria can be stabilized, but this will not be something that can be a. achieved overnight or b. through external forces. There is no clear solution to this conflict and one can understand why the people there tolerated their dictator for such a long time. They may not have had freedoms, but they at least had security. For the foreseeable future, they won't have either and on top of that, they'll have terrorists that - for those who don't know - come from the other side of Islam and have so far been kept out of Syria by the Assad regime.
There are many proposals of what could be done (intervening, arrest Assad, closing the borders, using NATO forces to secure the country, bringing controlled elections and an independent government on its way, etc.) but most of these steps would take a lot of time, a lot of ressources and could cost a lot of lives.. and as shown in Iraq, there's no guarantee this would actually work.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4946 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2479 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 14): Well, that sort of statement seems to be common in all countries that used to rule empires. The British still haven't got over the loss of theirs...
That statement would also send my Armenian friend fuming
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4775 posts, RR: 9 Reply 17, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2387 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12): Why? I want the Syrian army to be in a strong position so nobody can creep on the revolution like what happened in Egypt.
But currently that army is leveling the country, including its economic capital, killing indiscriminately and destroying historical landmarks. I don't see what is being achieved, aside from the fact that there is no coming back for Assad and this regime.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 48 Reply 19, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2346 times:
I know you are generally anti-war, and so am I, and I am not well versed enough in this issue to make an assumption on anything, but not ALL military action is bad. If the Syrian army really is causing problems and the deaths of Turkish civilians, it's Turkey's right (and responsibility) to protect its citizens.
Again, not saying they're handling this the best way (I don't know) but they may very well have justification
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7626 posts, RR: 28 Reply 20, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2341 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3): How do we know it wasn't the Western supported "rebels" who fired the mortars into 6urkey to start a larger conflict after being almost totally defeated in Syria... which in my mind makes more sense.
Where do you get this stuff from???
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
I know you are generally anti-war, and so am I, and I am not well versed enough in this issue to make an assumption on anything, but not ALL military action is bad. If the Syrian army really is causing problems and the deaths of Turkish civilians, it's Turkey's right (and responsibility) to protect its citizens.
Again, not saying they're handling this the best way (I don't know) but they may very well have justification
The situation is - as always - a lot more complex. There's been an on-going civil war in Turkey for many years now against the Turkish Kurds. The Syrian Kurds, in a very oversimplified explanation, is what Turkey is interested in. They have also got military in Iraq against Iraqi Kurds. Turkey will not launch a war against Syria. They will only try to prevent a movement/rebellion for the re-establishment of an independent Kurdistan.
So while it may appear to the uninformed spectator that Syria is full of evil tyrants that the innocent, good people are trying to topple - the conflict in Syria are actually 7-8 separate conflicts. Turkey isn't an ally of the west that wants to help depose the evil tyrant and bring the Syrians to freedom, Turkey is just fighting their own little battle among many almost entirely independent battles in Syria.
Turkey is a messed up country and it's ridiculous that they apply for EU membership. They may claim to be a secular country on paper, but in reality you don't evem have the same legal rights if you belong to another religion.
People who don't understand the region, and I would include myself in that group, should stop calling for military action because there is simply no starting point in this. And they should also stop blaming Russia or the Chinese for everything. The truth is.. there is just no solution to this issue. If ''the West'' wants to avoid another Iraq, then they need to stay the f out of there and offer help (asylum, medical aid, etc.) to those who need it.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3854 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2248 times:
Quoting something (Reply 22): People who don't understand the region, and I would include myself in that group,
If you admit you don't understand the country, why are you offering opinions about it's policies/possible actions ?
I am not sure I would characterize Turkey as being messed up. Yes, there is a long-standing slow civil war in the east w.r.t. the Kurdish minority. In some cases not so slow. I don't think the Armenians in the NE are all that restive, particularly after the recent earthquakes, they've got too much on their hands.
I think you're probably right in saying Turkey's interest in Syria is more to do with securing the Syrian Kurds, so that there will be no coalescing of Turkish, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurds into a true Kurdistan. But I think that, realistically, Northern Iraq is already Kurdistan, in everything except name. They have the oil revenue, their own money, their own army, modest though it may be, direct air service into Germany, limited diplomatic representation in a couple of Eurozone capitals, and so on. Rather than agitate for a "Kurdistan", Turkish and Syrian Kurds are likely better advised to move to Northern Iraq.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 24, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2223 times:
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23): Quoting something (Reply 22):
People who don't understand the region, and I would include myself in that group,
If you admit you don't understand the country, why are you offering opinions about it's policies/possible actions ?
The only opinion I have offered is to stay out of Syria. Maybe also that Turkey is not going to launch a war against Syria. Everything else weren't personal opinions but objective facts.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23): But I think that, realistically, Northern Iraq is already Kurdistan, in everything except name.
It is and the Iraqi gov't has recently urged the Turk military to leave the country. Even more reason for Turkey to have a tight grip on the Syrian kurds.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23): Rather than agitate for a "Kurdistan", Turkish and Syrian Kurds are likely better advised to move to Northern Iraq.
Logically yes, but they believe the land they live on is historically theirs so they want to claim it as such. This ''self deportation'' never really works.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
25 virgin744: And this is the same Russia that went to war with Georgia in 2008 and did the exact things its telling everyone not to do with Syria........Riiiiiiig
26 something: Something the US of course can't be accused of.
27 nighthawk: do you really believe it's all about helping out the poor Syrian people? It's far more complicated than that. In reality it's all about politics and
28 DeltaMD90: So you think the US would/should sit back if Russia was messing with/supporting an overthrow of Israel? It's very easy to see why Russia is pissed
29 PHX787: Russia can't do anything to us anyway. Their military may sound strong, but in reality, after the USSR fragmented, they're weak.
30 DeltaMD90: I don't think we'd ever fight them, it's just a big game of chicken honestly. I think the worst they can do (which works pretty well) is arm our enem
31 DocLightning: Yes, and they have some scary stuff. You don't need to build a nuclear bomb to put radioactive materials in a conventional bomb and set it off in the
32 something: Why do Americans always think the rest of the world cares about them? Like anybody's seriously sitting in Russia, wanting to take over the world. Coun
33 DocLightning: Because our military expenditures are larger than the rest of the world's combined and we have a tendency to invade countries who cheese us off. Beca
34 something: I don't understand if you're saying this is a good thing or not. Yes and China is the most populous country on earth. But is there any other governme
35 connies4ever: Not really (10k years, that is). The whole notion of a dirty bomb is terrorism, nothing more. The radiological footprint will be pretty limited. Most
36 777way: I think Turkey should have practicsed restraint.[Edited 2012-10-06 09:10:53]
37 DeltaMD90: And although I get where you are going, I do disagree about the part where terrorists don't think about America more. They don't think about our citi
38 PHX787: And let more mortar attacks happen? here's the problem with restraint- there's only so much that can happen before nations need to take actions and t
39 AirPacific747: Honestly, who cares about what Russia thinks? It's a corrupt country with a weak economy and the population is not even half the size of the US. They
41 mham001: It's remarkable that the only thread discussing Syria on the front page here has been dead for 4 days. Meanwhile, Russia is now officially in the mix
42 Aesma: There is talk on the thread about the intercepted A320.
43 mham001: War talk will not last long there. Meanwhile, while we all are bored with the situation... Syria activists say jihadis seize missile base BEIRUT (AP)
44 pvjin: True. Sometimes I wish Soviet Union still existed... At least it had some good sided too unlike capitalist Russia where pretty much everything has go
45 PHX787: Ah yes, Cold war Honestly, it's a huge case of diplomatic charading. People need to learn to accept certain things as differences.....as long as the
46 Aesma: Now they just get sent to radioactive prisons or shot or polonium poisoned, or just beat up when lucky.
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