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Obama Bribing For Votes? Free Obamaphones?  
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Is this for real?  Wow!
When I first heard about this, I just dismissed it as right-wing propaganda but after seeing the infamous Obamaphone lady and then did some research, this is a real. Totally shocking!
If this isn't bribery for votes then I don't know what to call it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

http://obamaphone.net/


I'm all in favor of helping the poor but a free cellphone is a bit much and the timing of this is suspect. I don't mean to poke fun of this lady but she reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried.


Bring back the Concorde
154 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15440 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
I'm all in favor of helping the poor but a free cellphone is a bit much and the timing of this is suspect.

I'm cool with it. Chalk it up as a Homeland Security line item. Emergency services are useless if they cannot be accessed, and let's remember that the Times Square car bomb was discovered by some street vendors, so it's not at all out of the realm of possibility that something similar could be discovered by a homeless person.

I'm far less scandalized by the idea of distributing cheap phones to poor people than I am befuddled as to why they couldn't also be issued ID cards so they can vote.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I am befuddled as to why they couldn't also be issued ID cards so they can vote.

Good point.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
distributing cheap phones to poor people

What kind of phones are these? Are they iphones?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

Actually its a continuation of a policy put in place by Ronald Reagan and the GOP in 1984.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Co.../FCC-State_Link/Monitor/mr98-2.pdf


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 3):
Actually its a continuation of a policy put in place by Ronald Reagan and the GOP in 1984.



No it's not. I'm well aware of the lifeline program to help low income people with their basic phone service. I don't recall that policy ever giving out free telephones. You still had to buy your own phone
Anyone that had a car phone or celluar phone in 1984 was super-wealthy.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
I'm well aware of the lifeline program to help low income people with their basic phone service. I don't recall that policy ever giving out free telephones.

Very few people owned a phone in 1984, most of them were rented from the service provider and hence the 1984 program included coverage of that phone rental as well.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Anyone that had a car phone or celluar phone in 1984 was super-wealthy.

Yes, but what does that have to do with this at all? Today, cellular phones are the predominant phone service around so it makes sense that the program covers them today rather than a fixed land line.

Obama hasn't passed anything new, its all covered under the act that Reagan instantiated.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Oh, and its worth pointing out that the migration to free cell phones happened in 2008 under GWB.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/

Quote:

SafeLink Wireless, [...], does indeed offer a cell phone, about one hour’s worth of calling time per month, and other wireless services like voice mail to eligible low-income households. Applicants have to apply and prove that they are either receiving certain types of government benefits, such as Medicaid, or have household incomes at or below 135 percent of the poverty line. Using 2009 poverty guidelines, that’s $14,620 for an individual and a little under $30,000 for a family of four, with slightly higher amounts for Alaska and Hawaii.

...

The SafeLink program has actually been offering cell phones to low-income households in some states since 2008


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Very few people owned a phone in 1984,

Huh? Everybody owned a phone in 1984.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Huh? Everybody owned a phone in 1984.

Everyone had a phone, but I think you will find that most people rented them from the telecoms company they had service with.

But this side discussion is taking us away from the core point - Drudge and the GOP are well off base here.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

So if what you're saying is true, how come Obama is trying to take credit for a policy started by Reagan & Bush?
The lady in the video and many others that recently got free cellphones in the swing state of Ohio are under the impression that this is a new program provided from President Obama.

Are these iPhones? O-phones? W-phones? R-Phones?

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
Everyone had a phone, but I think you will find that most people rented them from the telecoms company they had service with.



I do remember those days when the phone companies had monopolies. Some were bought and some were rented. A neighbor of ours had a phone that looked and quacked like a duck.  
Quoting moo (Reply 8):
But this side discussion is taking us away from the core point - Drudge and the GOP are well off base here.


Who said anything about "Drudge" or the "GOP"?  confused 
I posted a link from YouTube and an Obama site.

[Edited 2012-10-05 03:08:39]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
So if what you're saying is true, how come Obama is trying to take credit for a policy started by Reagan & Bush?
The lady in the video and many others that recently got free cellphones in the swing state of Ohio are under the impression that this is a new program provided from President Obama.

Post some proof that Obama is trying to take the credit, rather than some random woman (who could be a pro-Republican plant for all we know - we don't know much about the heritage of that clip, or the woman involved) giving credit.

Theres a huge difference between the two.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Who said anything about "Drudge" or the "GOP"?

Drudge was the first people to release the video, and the GOP jumped on it - you aren't the first person to start this discussion.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
I posted a link from YouTube and an Obama site.

Unfortunately, it looks like you've been taken in somewhat by a fake site - just because it has "Obama" plastered all over the place doesn't mean it has anything to do with Obama at all.

Firstly, a government body or political party would not be using Dreamhost to host an important website, and secondly the code is horrendous (its a WordPress site with a standard theme, not even a custom theme), and thirdly the "apply for a phone" link goes off to a site run by a private marketing company called "Free Government Cell Phones".

Not very convincing once you actually realise that theres no way in hell an official program would be advertised as "Obama [Anything]" as "ObamaCare" has bee used as a derogatory term since day one.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5842 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
So if what you're saying is true, how come Obama is trying to take credit for a policy started by Reagan & Bush?

He's not. He's just be stuck with it because it became known under his watch.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Are these iPhones? O-phones? W-phones? R-Phones?

Remember those cheapie "Free cell phone with plan" phones that had a 1 inch screen back in the 1998-2002 era? Similar to those. Nothing fancy. No data plan. In fact, until I upgraded to my HTC a couple years ago because of the AT&T buyout in my area, it's all I used as well, because it was all I needed at the time.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Post some proof that Obama is trying to take the credit,


Hey I'm simply asking questions. Notice the "?" question marks at the end of each sentence?

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Drudge was the first people to release the video, and the GOP jumped on it -


Thanks for the origins of the story.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
you aren't the first person to start this discussion.


Never claimed this to be "breaking news".
I found nothing in the search engine of the forums.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Unfortunately, it looks like you've been taken in somewhat by a fake site


Not really. I haven't send any money.  
Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Firstly, a government body or political party would not be using Dreamhost to host an important website, and secondly the code is horrendous (its a WordPress site with a standard theme, not even a custom theme), and thirdly the "apply for a phone" link goes off to a site run by a private marketing company called "Free Government Cell Phones".



Thanks for doing the research.  
Quoting moo (Reply 10):
"ObamaCare" has bee used as a derogatory term since day one.


I never saw it as a derogatory term. Since it's supposed to be a good thing, there should be no shame in attaching his name to it.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Hey I'm simply asking questions. Notice the "?" question marks at the end of each sentence?

Unfortunately, the format of the question does imply that you think Obama is taking credit. My personal belief (without looking into whether this has already been debunked, so it might have) is that the woman in the video is a plant by a pro-Republican campaign group (so, not officially linked to the Republican campaign) with the intention of creating this story.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Never claimed this to be "breaking news".

Sorry, wasn't saying you were - I was just implying that theres already been a lot of discussion on this since it broke a few days ago  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Not really. I haven't send any money.  

But unfortunately you have reposted it as attributed to Obama, which is exactly what the sites creators wanted   Thats all I meant!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
I never saw it as a derogatory term. Since it's supposed to be a good thing, there should be no shame in attaching his name to it.

I agree, but unfortunately its always been attacked as "ObamaCare", and derided as "ObamaCare". Theres an awful lot of negativity been pushed into the name these days, especially in the perception of the general public.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
Unfortunately, the format of the question does imply that you think Obama is taking credit.


Nah I'm just being lazy. 
Quoting moo (Reply 13):
the woman in the video is a plant by a pro-Republican campaign group


She does one hell of an act if she is just a plant. I think she's the real-deal.

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
But unfortunately you have reposted it as attributed to Obama, which is exactly what the sites creators wanted Thats all I meant!


No biggie. After looking closely it does look more like a spoof site. A well crafted one that isn't too far from what Obama would support.

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
I agree, but unfortunately its always been attacked as "ObamaCare", and derided as "ObamaCare". Theres an awful lot of negativity been pushed into the name these days, especially in the perception of the general public.


Heck if I were a politician that crafted legislation that was really good, I'd be proud to have my name attached to it. There many acts that are named after their sponsors - some good, some controversial such as the Pell Grant, Sarbanes/Oxley, Grahm/Rudman/Hollings, etc



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

We've gotten a few phone calls about these phones and it does irk me that the government is handing out subsidized cell phones. I just don't feel that a cell phone is a necessity as I know family members that don't own nor have they ever owned a cell phone because they had no need for one.

My next door neighbor's daughter got one and she gave to her teenage son as a Christmas gift. I see these "free cell phones" tents in parking lots all over town and that just irks me even more. There's no telling how much wasteful spending and corruption that is going on in this program. Like any government program, there's bound to be those abusing the system.

I just don't see the point of such a program where there are plenty of prepaid/pay as you go providers that are not that expensive and one can go into pretty much any store that sells phone cards and buy minutes for a cell phone. The phones this program are handing out are likely cheap throwaway phones that are a few years old and companies are looking for a way to dump them.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4153 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
We've gotten a few phone calls about these phones and it does irk me that the government is handing out subsidized cell phones

It's not the government, it is the cell companies themselves using the Universal Service Fee, which was codified to Guarantee services to those in hard to reach places.

This cell company is just doing things rather smartly. hte airtime minutes are for free, and they underwrte the phones with tracphone and offer limited airtime.
then they can SELL more minutes .

https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Safelink/program_info/benefits



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 924 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

My 82 year old mom has one of these. And it is a POS cheap phone. She gets 1 hour a month and she has to pay for any additional herself. Installing a land line phone with Verizon and AT&T, the monthly cost was out of her reach. And if you have not noticed, payphones are getting few and far between lately. As BMI727 stated, it is her only access to EMS services if she may ever need them.


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
it does irk me that the government is handing out subsidized cell phones.


While I support the Lifeline program to help the poor with basic land-line service, I think the free cellphone is a bit much.
Since these are new-old-stock phones, can't the manufacture just give them away directly without government involvement? I have a feeling that the manufacture may get kickbacks from the government and that cheap $30 cellphone ends up costing much more once the government is involved.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
I just don't feel that a cell phone is a necessity as I know family members that don't own nor have they ever owned a cell phone because they had no need for one.


Perhaps we're showing our age? In the not to distant past, cellphones were a luxury. The under 20 crowd here can't imagine a world without cellphones. When the Lifeline program started in 1984, the only guys with cellphones drove Ferrari's and wore pin-stripe suits. They certainly didn't qualify for a free phone.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
"free cell phones" tents in parking lots all over town and that just irks me even more. There's no telling how much wasteful spending and corruption that is going on in this program.



I haven't been in the US in over 2 years now and I never remember seeing such a thing. Is this something recent or regional? Has you noticed an increase in these free phone tents? After-all, there is an election next month.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
I have a feeling that the manufacture may get kickbacks from the government and that cheap $30 cellphone ends up costing much more once the government is involved.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

I haven't been in the US in over 2 years now and I never remember seeing such a thing. Is this something recent or regional? Has you noticed an increase in these free phone tents? After-all, there is an election next month.

As cas points out, it's not the gov't administering the program but the telecoms.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5961 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3661 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 3):
Actually its a continuation of a policy put in place by Ronald Reagan and the GOP in 1984.

I would disagree, that program is still in place. I heard a radio ad for it last week and was shocked it was still around. The free cell phone thing did start under Bush and and as a conservative I was appalled. When I first heard an ad for it, onthe radio, I was shocked. It got popular under Obama...

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
Everyone had a phone, but I think you will find that most people rented them from the telecoms company they had service with.

Depends where you lived. My family owned their phones in 1984, but in 1980, they were rented. I have heard that 1000s of people in Detroit are still shelling out a rental fee for their home phones becuase they don't know anybetter. There was an article about it in the Detroit Free Press a couple of years ago

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Post some proof that Obama is trying to take the credit

I don't think he is actually trying to take credit, I think a lot of people are trying to give him the credit, even if he doesn't deserve it. There are people in the conservative camp that want to make it look like he came up with to get people fire up up against him and there are those on the liberal side that want people to think Obama started it to get them fired up to vote for him

I doubt that.... People in Detroit call it an "Obama phone" and I have heard them with my own ears. The people I have heard saying it are people that actually have the phone and are telling their friends about it. I have heard this conversation at church, in bars, and in line at the grocery store.

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
agree, but unfortunately its always been attacked as "ObamaCare", and derided as "ObamaCare". There's an awful lot of negativity been pushed into the name these days, especially in the perception of the general public

That isn't new. Back in the 1990s people called it "Hillary Care" and it was meant as a negative.

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
My personal belief (without looking into whether this has already been debunked, so it might have) is that the woman in the video is a plant by a pro-Republican campaign group (so, not officially linked to the Republican campaign) with the intention of creating this story.

I doubt that. I have heard it called the "Obama phone" in Detroit with my own ears. They people calling it that are people who actually have the phone and seem to love Obama because they think he gave it to them. I have heard this conversation in bars, at church, and in line at the grocery store.

There are people who do think Obama is going to give them free stuff. There was a recent scam in Detroit that was reported in the Free Press that said several hundred people had personal information stolen by people claiming Obama was going to pay their back electric bills (not the Democratic Party, not the government, but Obama himself). These people actually expected the President to pay their bills and gladly handed over personal information to thieves.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

For years we have been able to turn in old mobile phones that are adjusted to only be able to call 911 and given to battered women. Free. And not a political issue.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39477 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting bhill (Reply 21):
As BMI727 stated, it is her only access to EMS services if she may ever need them.


...and that I fully support.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 23):
As cas points out, it's not the gov't administering the program but the telecoms.


Does this fall under the tax credit / loophole for one of those large corporations?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 24):
I have heard that 1000s of people in Detroit are still shelling out a rental fee for their home phones becuase they don't know anybetter.



WOW!  Wow!
Just WOW!  Wow!
Quoting falstaff (Reply 24):
I don't think he is actually trying to take credit, I think a lot of people are trying to give him the credit, even if he doesn't deserve it. There are people in the conservative camp that want to make it look like he came up with to get people fire up up against him and there are those on the liberal side that want people to think Obama started it to get them fired up to vote for him



That is what I was suspecting but considering how Obama is always talking about fairness and wealth redistribution, it's totally believable. The term 'Bushphone' or 'Romneyphone' doesn't sound believable.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 24):
That isn't new. Back in the 1990s people called it "Hillary Care" and it was meant as a negative.


I was just starting college then and I was all in favor of Hillarycare at that time. Having a name attached to law or program isn't a bad thing. I support the Pell grant which was started by former Senator Claiborne Pell (D-RI).
That is a good program named after a politician.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 24):
There are people who do think Obama is going to give them free stuff.


That is true. I don't want to seem like I'm dumping on mis-informed Obama supporters (I was one too) but why is it that there are so many of his supporters that think they're gonna get a free handout? The motivating factor to Kerry supporters was to simply get rid of Bush. The motivating factory behind supporting Gore was to continue the success of the Clinton years and keep Bush from getting in. The motivating factor behind supporting Clinton was that he was a great statesman and incredible politician. For a lot of Obama's core supporters, it's getting free stuff. Where is this myth coming from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

Quoting falstaff (Reply 24):
There was a recent scam in Detroit that was reported in the Free Press that said several hundred people had personal information stolen by people claiming Obama was going to pay their back electric bills (not the Democratic Party, not the government, but Obama himself). These people actually expected the President to pay their bills and gladly handed over personal information to thieves.



A LOT of people in Detroit fell for that too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ojd13kZlCA



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
We've gotten a few phone calls about these phones

Why are you getting calls about them?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 19):
it does irk me that the government is handing out subsidized cell phones. I just don't feel that a cell phone is a necessity

Operating cost for a cell phone is less than for a land line.


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
Having a name attached to law or program isn't a bad thing. I support the Pell grant which was started by former Senator Claiborne Pell (D-RI).
That is a good program named after a politician.

But as you mention, Pell started the program. Sarbanes-Oxley was sponsored by those two politicans, likewise McCain-Feingold. This program wasn't started by Obama, so why should it bear his name?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):

Does this fall under the tax credit / loophole for one of those large corporations?

No clue here without reading further into the program than I have time for right now.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
I don't want to seem like I'm dumping on mis-informed Obama supporters (I was one too) but why is it that there are so many of his supporters that think they're gonna get a free handout?

Low information voters come in all stripes. How many low-income conservative Christian whites have pushed a button/turned a lever simply because a candidate had (R) next to their name and thought that they were going to automatically get the policy preference they wanted? It cuts both ways.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
25 Superfly : I have no clue. I never even heard of the term 'Obamaphone' until 2 days ago when this caustic lady's video went viral. Very true. Particularly when
26 falstaff : I don't know if they even have to be adjusted to do that. I know a lot of the old ones (1980s and early 1990s models) would access 911 even if they h
27 Post contains links srbmod : It's something that has started to crop up in the last year. I remember when having a pager was a big deal. I guess I'm becoming a grumpy old man as
28 SmittyOne : Yep, if somebody had a beeper you assumed they must be a doctor on call.
29 seb146 : To get the right fired up about hating him all over again. That's the only reason I can see for it. For those who don't do research but rely soley on
30 Flighty : Phones are the least of it. Tons of people live in government housing, watch cable TV paid for by fraudulent government disability benefits, get high/
31 casinterest : There may be fraud, but that is in the administration of the program. it isn't the program itself at fault. And by no means is this a "liberal" issue
32 seb146 : I see... So, this just all happened since January, 2009? Never ever before then?
33 LMP737 : During your research did you come across the fact that the Obama administration did not start the program? Facts did not stop people like Drudge or L
34 pvjin : Not really. In here Europe we have 10x better social benefits and everything compared to United States, yet we have no problem with that extremely sm
35 Post contains images Superfly : ..and that makes me suspicious. Taiwan has signs on their subways about cellphone etiquette. Haha! Yes I need to update the urban slang app in my bra
36 SmittyOne : If that works in Finland, great...but as crazy as it sounds we're not primarily interested in having the government make society more equal, healthy,
37 pvjin : But is United States anymore a country of opportunities where any man can go and become successful through hard work? In my opinion a system where go
38 SmittyOne : People keep trying to come here, so I'm thinking it must be. But there is also a large and growing segment of the population that seems happy enough
39 Newark727 : If this is so, I'm moving, when's the next flight? If you didn't do the full research, do the fact-minded people in this thread a favor and don't pos
40 seb146 : Seemed to work pretty well through the 1950s and 1960s....
41 Post contains images BMI727 : Nothing free about it. Get some disgusting European tax rates to push more business and capital elsewhere? I don't want society to be equal. Equality
42 Newark727 : So basically "mine! it's all mine!" Also it can't have escaped your attention that any other inequality tends to undermine equality under the law. No
43 Newark727 : Then why haven't "we" amended out that clause of the Constitution about doing things "necessary and proper for the general welfare" then? Indeed, why
44 BMI727 : Yep. I don't appreciate the government reaching into my pocket to take care of everyone. Taxes should pay for services, not for people. Because some
45 cmf : Taxes do not pay for people. Not true. The answer is that there are a lot of things we do not want provided by owners of private businesses. They owe
46 Newark727 : Boy, that answer sure fills me with confidence about the ability of private charities to make up the difference when addressing the legitimately need
47 Post contains images Flighty : It's an old concept but it has increased markedly, yes. Not Obama's fault but it points out the flaws in his philosophy. Many people can claim to be
48 BMI727 : Not all of them, but too many do. Really? Go get yourself a navy. No they don't, they have to pay for the services they receive, but don't owe anythi
49 Newark727 : Listen to yourself. On one post (actually two) you're saying "my money my money my money forever, I intend to keep it no matter what" and now you're
50 cmf : No they don't. Yes really. Historically defense (and offense) have frequently been privately supplied. They owe to the society they are part of, just
51 BMI727 : Actually it's "my money and I will determine where it should go" whether that is charities, investments, matresses, banks, etc. If I feel that strong
52 EA CO AS : Then why did President Obama specifically refer to it as "ObamaCare" during the debate?
53 casinterest : Beacause it is short and concise, and by the way Romney brough it up.
54 DeltaMD90 : Wow is this thread about phones or is it He went further than that... he said he was very fond of the term.
55 casinterest : It still doesn;t take away from the fact that the right likes to use it as a derogatory term. However everyone else has adopted it since listing out
56 seb146 : Like the word "liberal" or "Democrat". But, with the rash of outsourcing and the resulting workers forced to take up minimum wage jobs because they l
57 Post contains images EA CO AS : While Romney brought it up, if the President found the term so abhorrent he'd make a point of calling it the Affordable Care Act, "the healthcare law
58 Newark727 : The point is, you're not selling anyone on the charity-only approach when you say that you want to earn and keep as much inequality as you can. De ju
59 BMI727 : Versus extortionist politics? Telling people what they should be doing with their money is ridiculous. I don't care if you have $10 or $10 million, i
60 Newark727 : That's a great idea but there are a multitude of other ideas associated with it that make it a little problematic. No matter how much control you hav
61 BMI727 : Duh. Having more money makes life easier. None of that, however, makes it okay for you or I to stake a claim on anyone else's money. There is the ver
62 pvjin : What if someone has a serious disease that prevents he/she from working? Should he/she then get money from the government ?
63 Post contains links and images Superfly : They're already covered by disabilities (ADA). It's a good program supported by both parties. China Airlines and EVA have daily flights from JFK. I t
64 cmf : Pay your bills, then you get to decide how you spend the rest. If you don't like to pay your bill to the society you live in then move. But stop bein
65 BMI727 : Cutting checks to poor people is not a bill. That's exactly what it is whenever liberals say things like "it's cheaper than prisons" or "it keeps us
66 Newark727 : The point is the valid social principle of letting people do what they want with their money doesn't exist in a vacuum and its inherently rougher on
67 BMI727 : Having less money sucks, believe me, I know. But again, that doesn't mean I should get a cut of anyone's money. What is "something"? If it's losing m
68 pvjin : It works very well in here Europe and so it would work in United States too if there were less greedy conservatives out there.
69 cmf : Which you're not doing so stop stating you do. It is cheaper than prison. Even better, it is productive as it helps getting people out working. There
70 BMI727 : Perhaps if every poor person decides they need to commit crimes, but we all know that isn't the case. No it isn't. Gifting implies that there is a ch
71 Newark727 : I'm not saying retard the top performers. I'm saying keep the top performers from using the resources they have to keep anyone else from being a top
72 Newark727 : More things than you care to admit. Believe it or not, not every government entitlement is for a welfare queen. Tax deductions that cover very expens
73 Post contains images BMI727 : That doesn't happen. My neighbor being a millionaire in no way inhibits my chances of becoming a millionaire. Collecting welfare checks that come fro
74 cmf : Because we provide alternatives. Welfare provide a much better society for all of us. It means we create positive resources instead of dealing with n
75 pvjin : Yes couple of them, then we have Finland and many others with high taxes and welfare system & small amount of debts. And United States has ridicu
76 BMI727 : Tax deductions are not taking money from the government. Paying less money to the government is not the same as getting money from the government. Fu
77 pvjin : Social programs are for good of the people, "defense" forces are not. Over 50% of US military is totally useless waste of money. Nah, smaller percent
78 BMI727 : For people cashing the checks anyway, not the people writing them. Defense is necessary and you should ponder how useless it is next time you get on
79 Post contains images Flighty : Capital gains tax receipts skyrocketed (in dollars) when Bush cut the rate to 15%. It frees capital in order to reallocate it to newer investments, r
80 pvjin : Okay, well that explains a lot. After let's say 10 million euros money would be worth nothing to me and I would probably give it away to charity. I s
81 cmf : Much better to write a small check than a big check. This isn't good wine. It doesn't get better by letting it sit. Defense is necessary but what we
82 BMI727 : You'll probably see a spike if it looks like capital gains rates will expire. When you are spending 1.5 times what you bring in, that's not a revenue
83 something : As so often, you understand the principle but don't ask why said principle exists, leaving you with an erroneous conclusion. Terrorism is a reaction
84 cmf : That is for the voters to decide. If you don't like the result then you should move. No, it is bullying. It provide short time positives but long tim
85 Newark727 : Not directly, no. But long-term, more wealth controlled by fewer people is a terrible recipe for social mobility. You can look to dozens of governmen
86 BMI727 : Do you think that jobs, growth, and capital moving elsewhere is a coincidence? I hope not, otherwise it's just a matter of time until the next major
87 cmf : No, I think they are related to much more complicated reasons than taxes. There is nothing indicating it will change. You keep changing your statemen
88 Newark727 : We're probably both sick of parsing each other now so: 1. Just because it's their money doesn't mean its dispensation can't have a massive effect on y
89 BMI727 : There are other reasons too, but when people say "if you don't like it, move" the answer is that some things already are. I can play nice. It's like
90 BMI727 : The rich company, without a doubt. Number one rule is that there's no point suing someone who can't pay you anything. The rich company, on the other
91 cmf : Hardly ever because of taxes. If you think it is comparable to going to the dentist, then you're not ready. And they don't, so you're objecting with
92 Newark727 : This is my bugbear. The more leeway you give to corporations and wealthy stakeholders, the less likely these laws are to hold. They work now, but the
93 BMI727 : I find not being in charge to generally be an annoyance. Sure but I want to be able to choose the risk pool I'm in. I don't want to be forced to pay
94 Post contains images EA CO AS : That so? Well, can you actually back up that claim up with credible, factual data, or is this merely more of your useless hyperbole?
95 pvjin : No, just the fact that during last 50 years nobody has tried to invade United States and also the fact that regular army can't effectively fight agai
96 pvjin : Sooner or later at least in case of Saudi Arabia it will be, who knows when it gets a revolution and gets Iranian style government. In here Finland m
97 EA CO AS : Okay, so it's merely more of your useless hyperbole then - got it. Just wanted to fact-check you to ensure your complete and utter lack of credibilit
98 Post contains images BMI727 : That's exactly the point: we now must maintain not only the conventional war fighting force but also drastically expand the capabilities of the milit
99 cmf : Better get used to it because if you want to build something that is worth a billion USD you will need to trust people a lot more than you need to tr
100 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : I had no idea Obama had raised so much campaign money. Barack Obama: The $1 Billion Candidate With his latest fundraising haul, Barack Obama will almo
101 pvjin : You need just more special force troops, UAV's and others. Iraq and Afghanistan have already proven that invading a country does not solve anything.
102 something : The problem is that as I tried to to find out in a separate thread, Americans pay more or less the same tax burden as us ''evil socialist'' Europeans
103 SmittyOne : Which things are you talking about here?
104 falstaff : Really? So when the IRA was bombing railroad stations in England that was the USA's Fault. How about when those terrorists captured that school in Ru
105 pvjin : Yeah terrorism has existed through the history of course, however terrorism against United States and its allies (other than some local conflicts suc
106 BMI727 : If I end up with high blood pressure, etc. I'll just have to pay a bit more in insurance and medical costs. It wouldn't be fair to throw the costs on
107 cmf : No, no, no. With high blood pressure you have an expensive condition so they will not take you. SOOL Because they are made to work at absolute minimu
108 pvjin : Just hide all that stuff to warehouses, as long as there is no water or other stuff it all will stay just like new.
109 BMI727 : At which point I either become healthier or pay the costs. It's not fair to tell others what they can and cannot eat, but it's also not fair that eve
110 cmf : That is where we got it right.
111 BMI727 : It doesn't work that way anymore for a lot of reasons. First, systems are now more sophisticated and development cycles are far longer than in the pa
112 Post contains images CompensateMe : I'm aware you're young and attempting to justify your opinions, but as you get older you'll begin to unravel your share of health problems. Yes, poor
113 cmf : I'm sorry to hear you're having another heart attack. You really should have slowed down after that first bypass and insurance would not have dropped
114 BMI727 : Which is exactly why I wouldn't make the ultimate bet and go without insurance. Other people may disagree and want to do something different.
115 SmittyOne : BMI, I'm interested in your thoughts on this idea... I agree that education is key, but there is plenty of work that doesn't require a ton of skill or
116 CompensateMe : The overwhelming of majority of USA citizens do not possess a college education. Nor do the overwhelming majority of jobs within the USA require a co
117 CompensateMe : You do realize how much private health insurance costs, right? And once you pay your $4,000+ annual premium, you'll likely to have spend hundreds --
118 BMI727 : There will be since, after all, there is no real way to outsource things like garbage collection or roofing. Economics will likely dictate that these
119 cmf : Great posts. They describe much of what our friend is missing. But, of course, I have to add a few comments. It certainly is in everyones interest. A
120 CompensateMe : Huh? Private insurances operate today as for-profit businesses. Insurances play a BIG role in dictating the type of health care one receives. If you
121 SmittyOne : Agreed, and sure as hell not what I'm talking about. Let me clarify with an example... You work as a manager for a company making widgets. You are do
122 BMI727 : Wages have to be determined by market forces and I'd be bound to gain the most return for shareholders. Paying more than necessary to employees would
123 Newark727 : That's fine and all but you're not especially likely to be ambitious if you have no chance of being successful. And most of the policies you advocate
124 CompensateMe : Market forces hardly determine wages. Low wages lead to high turn over at places like Target, Kroger, etc. Places like Whole Foods and Costco -- whic
125 Post contains images EA CO AS : You clearly don't know what the word "pilfer" means. On the contrary, they absolutely do. Jobs are offered at a wage the employer feels is fair, base
126 SmittyOne : I wasn't talking about shareholders or paying higher wages. I'm talking about selective gov't assistance so that unskilled workers who perform vital
127 SmittyOne : I just caught this upon re-reading your post. So, I'm assuming you're not working currently, covered by your parents' health care policy, living at h
128 casinterest : I assume you graduated with the degree in Aerospace engineering? If so, I think politically with the cuts coming to Defense( that both parties agreed
129 pvjin : Republicans are not going to do any magical trick to improve US economy as it's dependent from international economy and its problems.
130 BMI727 : If the choice is between that and raising minimum wage, I'd raise the minimum wage even though it won't benefit everyone. Put the cost of achieving t
131 SmittyOne : I know you are all about the benjamins etc...but show me the world's hottest married woman and I'll show you a guy who is tired of sleeping with her.
132 CompensateMe : And I'll respectfully disagree. I'll reiterate: if market forces truly determined wages, many occupations would've experienced much stronger wage gro
133 Flighty : The US economy is about 45% government (federal, state and local). So, it definitely matters who is in charge of that. Let's just agree that it would
134 CompensateMe : We have a surplus of lawyers in this country. Many can't find work, but the ones that do land jobs at high rates of pay (usually offered to graduates
135 BMI727 : Maybe for some people, but I'm a car guy and manufacturers are only too happy to keep on churning out newer and faster models. Besides, when I do som
136 Post contains links and images EA CO AS : As is your prerogative. We'll agree to disagree, then. Is that so? Please show me where; I can't seem to find that word anywhere in anything I've wri
137 SmittyOne : That all begin to sound and smell the same. Ask me how I know. You've just described the majority of homo sapiens. I've been doing things well for a
138 Post contains links casinterest : l Present to everyone .....FreedomPop. From the guy that brought you skype. Free 500 MB Data plans. No 911 so I don't think it is a subsidy involved.
139 Newark727 : You can't say something like that after the rest of the things you've said in this thread. You're saying people on welfare are drains on society, you
140 BMI727 : Certain things, like military protection, must be provided collectively for practical reasons. But those services have to be obtained for the purpose
141 Newark727 : How is welfare not doing this? A big part of your earlier point seems to have been that poor people don't the money they get wisely, based on your us
142 BMI727 : The key is "their money" which welfare is not. I don't mind if you light your money on fire, but don't torch mine too. Entitled to money I earn? Damn
143 SmittyOne : At least you are honest. I'll leave you to your thoughts then!
144 Newark727 : It's your taxes. It's not yours anymore, that's the point. I've yet to see the particulars but I'm pretty sure you don't get an envelope in the mail
145 BMI727 : Plenty of other people find government pay and benefits just fine or they just don't care. I'm fine with that, I'm not going to tell them how to prio
146 Flighty : Yeah, it's called property. Seriously. What gives me chills is that local authorities can charge endlessly increasing taxes on your home (which you o
147 BMI727 : Which is why it's exceptionally important to reign in the government and keep it to essential functions. Beyond that, people should contribute to wha
148 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : I did not go through the whole thread. I am not sure if this article was posted before. This is the man who supplies the controversial "Obama phones".
149 Post contains images BMI727 : Let's go over this: a guy who made a lot of money selling phones is making money by selling phones.
150 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : For real, I don't get the fuss. A phone supplier selling... phones... the horror?
151 Newark727 : That's as may be but it's election season and President Obama is involved somehow, so I for one am grabbing a bullhorn and climbing the nearest rooft
152 SmittyOne : I think this is a courageous viewpoint for someone at actual risk of imminent deprivation in the event of failure, and who is personally responsible
153 BMI727 : Trust me when I say that I am always acutely aware of how much I am burning through my savings. And as someone who has gotten an education that ran i
154 Post contains links superfly : Valid points on both sides in this discussion. My question is, does these 'Obamaphones' or surplus NOS phones have video capabilities? From another th
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