Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012  
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Tomorrow Venezuela will celebrate the presidential elections.

The 2 favorites are

current President Hugo Rafael Chavez since 14 years in Power

and the mayor opposition leader Enrique Capriles Radonski,

right now no doubt the country is living a very tentions situation as the polls are showing a very close result.

anywho many many people have a big hope for tomorrow and a better Veneuzela in the future.

Radonski held an incredible election campain, visiting village by village the last 3 months in oposit the current president held a quite week campain.

Chavez told many times that he recognized that he made many errors during the last 14 years but the important is that the people should vote for him
Radonski in oposite told quite clear what is in his plans.

please find 2 links to the mayor songs of the canditates during the campain.



Radonski: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcuXKM-qFmo&feature=related
Chavez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsejbsZ_ZdM&feature=related

no doubt that both canditates had milliones of followers in the street during that last days of their campaigns.

God may bless Venezuela.

Cheers
Avianca


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
and the mayor opposition leader Enrique Capriles Radonski

He looks like an interesting man. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that Chavez is sent off to retirement (in Cuba or Iran since he seems to like them so much)



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
He looks like an interesting man. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that Chavez is sent off to retirement (in Cuba or Iran since he seems to like them so much)

no doubt he is with an incredible CV!

Milliones of Venezuelan people are crossing the fingers and are goving to vote tomorrow for Radonski, and yes Chavez already addmited in case he lose tomorrow he will resign from his duty as he will be not open to be in power during the transition period!

cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
Milliones of Venezuelan people are crossing the fingers and are goving to vote tomorrow for Radonski, and yes Chavez already addmited in case he lose tomorrow he will resign from his duty as he will be not open to be in power during the transition period!

What's the word on fraud? I have little doubt that Chavez would have no qualms about stuffing ballot boxes.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

He nonetheless still has a lot of grip on every facet of the government and media and I'm guessing his opponent has an uphill battle to fight, even assuming ballot boxes aren't stuffed or the like.

I hope he goes away. He's done his country enough disservice already.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
Chavez told many times that he recognized that he made many errors during the last 14 years but the important is that the people should vote for him

And does he think Venezuelans are that stupid? 14 years was plenty of time for him to build what he called ¨Socialism of the 21st century¨ yet all he did was spend the people´s money doing dodgy businesses with Iran, Cuba, Bolivia, Etc and completely collapsing the country´s industry by expropriating factories, companies, businesses and farms and letting them rot away with little to no investment.

Yes he ¨may¨ have done ¨some¨ good things like healthcare and those missions for the poor, but even that had a second nature behind it.

Anyways, I hope Capriles is elected so we can finally close this dark chapter in the history of this beautiful country, I really want to feel proud of my country again, and I want to wish Capriles the best of luck if he wins, there´s a heck of a lot of work to do!

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

he was not able to, if he would have done this - you can be sure that war had started.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I hope he goes away. He's done his country enough disservice already.

Milliones are hoping the same! thanks for your support!

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
And does he think Venezuelans are that stupid? 14 years was plenty of time for him to build what he called ¨Socialism of the 21st century¨ yet all he did was spend the people´s money doing dodgy businesses with Iran, Cuba, Bolivia, Etc and completely collapsing the country´s industry by expropriating factories, companies, businesses and farms and letting them rot away with little to no investment.

unbelivable all the bad thinks he has done, also its a shame how corrupt is Venezuela - its unbelivable.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
Yes he ¨may¨ have done ¨some¨ good things like healthcare and those missions for the poor, but even that had a second nature behind it.

for sure he made some good things, but very limited.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
Anyways, I hope Capriles is elected so we can finally close this dark chapter in the history of this beautiful country, I really want to feel proud of my country again, and I want to wish Capriles the best of luck if he wins, there´s a heck of a lot of work to do!

hope you can exercise tomorrow your vote, I wish I could, also living in Venezuela I am only resident.

saludos desde Caracas
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
you can be sure that war had started.

It almost did in Honduras a few years ago when Chavez tried to place a minion of his in power there.

I presume the goal was mostly to get a clear drug pathway through the isthmus to the North for his FARC buddies.

Although internationally decried, the coup d'état possibly saved that country from the worst.

Best of luck for the election!



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7913 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

Good luck, not sure if it's just a Western spin or the truth (seems to be the latter) but Hugo Chavez does not sound like a very good man. Best of luck for Venezuela moving into the future!


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

well a good example how democratic the guy is following:
He closed down the Venezulean Consulat in Miami some time ago in order that the biggest Venezulean community abroad can not vote, anyhow thousands and thousands are on their way or already arrived in New Orleans in order to vote tomorrow for a future of Venezuela!



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
hope you can exercise tomorrow your vote, I wish I could, also living in Venezuela I am only resident.

Unfortunately I can´t, my passport and ID card are expired from a long time ago, but since trying to renew these things was such a hassle from abroad, I just gave up.

All the best of luck to all my fellow Venezuelans, they have already voted in Australia and Asia, now they are voting here in Europe, and soon they will start voting back home  

SE VE, SE SIENTE!

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Anybody will be better than the dictatorial Chavez. Besides, he probably wouldn't live another term anyway.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

we are not far away to get the results... the tention is very high right now in Venezuela / Caracas


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
we are not far away to get the results... the tention is very high right now in Venezuela / Caracas

Have there been riots/violence in the past over these results? I hope we don't see much, but IMO Chavez needs to go.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

According to reports, both sides think that Chavez has won.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ela-election-idUSBRE89601Z20121008



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
According to reports, both sides think that Chavez has won.

Just got an update from FOX



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2986 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Chavez won, with 54% of the vote.

Expected, but disappointing nonetheless.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineggsm From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

So sad that even today ignorance is bigger than reality in Venezuela, but hope is the last thing we can lose.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19724 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2254 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 16):
Expected, but disappointing nonetheless.

While not completely ruling out fraud, it would be impossible to make in a scale that would him such a margin of victory. Some media talk about a 10% lead or about a million votes. So, either the media in the Western world have been painting a very dire picture of Venezuela under Chávez, and things are not so bad as they seem, or the Venezuelan people in a majority are pretty happy under him.

He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

I do hate the mesage that his victory, legitimate as it may be, is sending to Argentina, Nicaragua, Ecuador and Bolivia.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2986 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Let's hope so.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.

  



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2122 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
either the media in the Western world have been painting a very dire picture of Venezuela under Chávez, and things are not so bad as they seem, or the Venezuelan people in a majority are pretty happy under him

Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Grande Chavez !
congratulations to Venezuela,I mean for the 54%  



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 21):
Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.

Exactly. Chavez has many flaws, but anybody would certainly not be better than him. And he is vilified in the US while other leaders with far less legitimacy are hailed.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 21):
Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.

That too. But given the current state of Venzuela in many areas (at least what the media protrays) I bet those swing voters would have voted FOR the return of those "traditional greedy elites".


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 16):
Chavez won, with 54% of the vote.

I did not want to say anything on this thread before the vote as I was totally convinced that he would win.

Also it is none of my business to comment on another country's election results. The world would be a better place if we just minded our own business in our home countries without messing about in others.

I think things are bad enough where we are so there is no need that we try to rectify what others are doing. It is their own freedom to vote who they want. Let's take care of our own problems first and foremost. That we don't like it is another problem, but still none of our business.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election.

Didn't they have foreign inspectors sent to make sure the vote would be "regular" and not cheated?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Wishing death on another person is the worst thing imaginable. Such low thinking will return an equal negative reaction to those who think that way also.

Live and let live. Once again we should mind our own business where we live and stop interfering in other countries business. Who they vote is their own problem. Let them deal with it themselves and take in the consequences.

I did not like Hollande winning the French election but now he is there and he has full power so I have to do with it. I would never think of wishing that he would die. He is so bad anyway that people will be happy to get rid of him next time anyway.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2122 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
And he is vilified in the US while other leaders with far less legitimacy are hailed

Someone in The Guardian was calling bs on the double standard just last week.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
given the current state of Venzuela in many areas (at least what the media protrays)

It's amazing what passes for media coverage here in Latin America.. and specifically with regard to Venezuela, search online (either torrent files or YouTube copies) for the 2003 documentary La revolución no será transmitida or The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, aka Chávez: Inside the Coup.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
I bet those swing voters would have voted FOR the return of those "traditional greedy elites"

And ironically those who systematically neglected the downtrodden masses for years, created the right conditions for Chávez's version of Bolivarianism and self–styled Socialist revolution to flourish.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2258 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25):
Wishing death on another person is the worst thing imaginable. Such low thinking will return an equal negative reaction to those who think that way also.

You did not understand what I wrote, Madame. I am not wishing his dead. I am just stating that given the well known facts about his illness, plus his very limited campaign appearances are indicators that he is not very healthy, and in fact, it has been written in the media that he is terminal.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2238 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
in fact, it has been written in the media that he is terminal.

i would abstain from this kind of comments. I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2224 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
i would abstain from this kind of comments. I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

I will remind you, again, that I am not the one inventing those comments. Once you read the links I have provided below, and see for yourself how I am not making anything up, you may wish to write or e-mail those media and tell them your opinion about abstaining on commenting about wether or not the president of a country running for office for a third term has terminal cancer.

http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/arti...22.html?xtmc=chavez_cancer&xtcr=10

http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1349645931_568303.html

http://www.clarin.com/america_latina...ampana-reeleccion_0_710928963.html


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2189 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

Neither do I, neither do most.

But I'm calling Karma on this one. The amount of violence and deaths he is directly or indirectly responsible for is incredible. His only real policy is demagogy, axed on the hatred for the evil forces that are the rich, the capitalists and the western nations that harbor them...

He is a self proclaimed rebel who advocates violence, and seems to be obtaining it since Venezuela has now become the least secure country in South America, ridden with rampant violence and murders...
Not to mention his catastrophic economic policies, strongly suspected ties with the FARCs and drug trafficking, and lack of any real progress in the fight against poverty, especially since he counts on the votes from the poor who he still manages to lure with empty promises.

There are a lot of people out there with terminal diseases who deserve it a lot less than this guy.

While the US is (rightly) keeping an idle stance towards him, I find it deplorable that many politicians in Europe are outspoken about their support towards him. Europeans understand little about the history and politics of Central and South America and are mistakenly attracted by the revolutionary ideas of the oppressed poor against the evil, all-powerful wealthy. The Che is an idol and even Castro is pictured as a relatively benign figure... We probably feel empathy since our history and nation has been drastically and positively reshaped by a revolution. Unfortunately, the social revolutions lead in Latin America have failed to lead to democratic and free nations.
Instead, they resulted in authoritative and oppressive regimes with catastrophic management of the country's ressources, corruption, and no real social improvement.

These countries do need more social laws to help decrease the huge gap separating classes, but they are unlikely to happen this way...

I feel for Venezuelans.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.

Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

Anyway, I am happy that the elections itself appeared to be genuine, both sides seem to have respected voters freedom and privacy, and that the elections were (relatively) violence - free.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

well this is democracy, we have to accept the result, also I saw today many many people with unhappy faces.

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 22):
Grande Chavez !
congratulations to Venezuela,I mean for the 54%

such a comment is typically for non democracy people!

Exactly the opposite what Capriles said in his speech! Highly recomend to all who are speaking spanish to search for it in youtube!

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 31):
Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

well here you go, you are totally correct.

Cheers from Caracas.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Well I wonder how long has there been an armed opposition? If such an assassination occured, we could see a fascist state in Venezuela. As much as I love my right wing politics, dictatorship sucks.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25):
I did not like Hollande winning the French election but now he is there and he has full power so I have to do with it. I would never think of wishing that he would die. He is so bad anyway that people will be happy to get rid of him next time anyway.

Seems like you guys have been kicking the can here with presidents. I like Sarkozy but maybe he didn't do quite enough. Hollande is just going to ruin france's government debt   

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 26):
Someone in The Guardian was calling bs on the double standard just last week.

Well it is the guardian, but I do see their point.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 32):
well this is democracy, we have to accept the result, also I saw today many many people with unhappy faces.

Has fraud been ruled out yet? has anyone been contesting it?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 33):
Well I wonder how long has there been an armed opposition? If such an assassination occured, we could see a fascist state in Venezuela. As much as I love my right wing politics, dictatorship sucks.

I think he's talking about the cancer rumors, which are quite persistently rumoring (that's what rumors do, after all) that Chavez' treatment for the disease wasn't successful at all.


User currently offlineAA757MIA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
While not completely ruling out fraud,

The election itself was probably fair, the problem is with the electoral registry. There are THOUSANDS (if not millions) of people with 2, 3 or who knows how many more national IDs, so they can vote several times. Not too mention the THOUSANDS (if not millions) of Iranians, Cubans, Brazilians, Belorusians, Colombians, Chinese and others who have received nationals IDs and compensation to vote for Chavez...

I don't have any ID numbers right now, but on previous elections you could enter some ID numbers on the CNE website, just to find out that they belonged to Batman, Robin, Superman, the wonder woman, and many others, also people over 120 y/o who voted... A total joke!

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 31):
Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

Correct! They have the money to buy votes, control of all the institutions, airwaves, newspapers...


User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 32):
such a comment is typically for non democracy people!

Your comment is typically for non democracy people because I have the right to express myself something that doesn't please you



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Great that Chavez won, sure he has his flaws but at least he supports Cuba which is a good thing, and he has indeed done many good things to improve healthcare and help poor people.


I don't know about this other candidate though, but as long as United States has big amount of conservative Republicans anything that opposes US imperialistic foreign policy is okay, other than evil extremist governments like in North Korea or Iran of course.

But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.

[Edited 2012-10-09 09:37:02]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.


Really amazing and mature comment ! you made my day pvjin !



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 36):
Your comment is typically for non democracy people because I have the right to express myself something that doesn't please you

Fair enough, but what we find quite disturbing is somebody that cheers up Chavez knowing all the damage he has done (and will continue to) do to Venezuela.

*Rampaging violence, just this weekend alone there were 79 people killed, obviously no one will be prosecuted because the justice system is a total joke.
*Crippling infrastructure due to lack of proper maintenance, bridges falling, Oil refineries blowing up and frequent power outages because he rather spend the country´s money with his friends Castro, Ahmadinejad and Co than investing in the country.
*A divided society, discriminating people and segregating them because they do not support him, putting a barrier for them to get jobs, education, etc.
*Crippling social services, try and go to a public hospital in Venezuela and see if they will be able to treat you. Even the famous ¨Missions¨ he created for the poor people, some are just empty buildings now.
*Almost no industry left, because he went on an ¨expropriation¨ spree, taking away companies from private investors, destroying jobs and the economy in the way and letting those companies, farms, businesess just rot away because he did not care afterwards.
*Look at the prices of Oil these days, Venezuelans should now be swimming in petrodollars, instead poverty and crime has been steadily on the rise.
*Total lack of diplomacy, now investors think twice or thrice before putting money in Venezuela. Unless you are Iran, Bielorussia or China.

You might say ¨Yeah but still 7 million venezuelans voted for him and he helped the poor¨

Well, he controls the Electoral Committee, and I am pretty sure a ¨Slight¨ manipulation of numbers kept him in power. it doesn´t really take a fool to know this.

And about helping the poor, well, there is a reasoning behind it, if you give a person 20€ a week to get some food, set up some shoddy hospital in the slums, well, of course he will vote for you, as long as those 20€ keep coming and that person can just sit on his arse all day drinking beer and listening to reggaeton instead of incentivating him or her to do better and get out of the slums.

As the saying does ¨People without education is people easier to fool¨

The list goes on an on and on.

So yeah, you are free to think as you like enjoying a comfy lifestyle in Norway or wherever the hell you happen to live (certainly not CCS) but I still don´t see how can someone support this guy.

Please give me your reasons.

I invite you to go to Venezuela and live like a venezuelan, see how long can you handle it, running back to your house at 6pm because you don´t know if you will make it back home alive, and making lines at Mercal or PDVAL to get whatever food happens to be available at the time, and just basically living in constant fear... you will be winging your way to the nearest SK plane out of there.

My opinion since I am also entitled to freedom of speech.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:18:04]

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:19:34]


I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Great that Chavez won, sure he has his flaws but at least he supports Cuba which is a good thing, and he has indeed done many good things to improve healthcare and help poor people.

And supporting Cuba is a good thing because?

Supporting an oppresive government that kills and prosecutes any form of opposition? and oppresses their own people without any form of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose who will govern them or freedon to move around freely if wished so? you think that´s good?

Venezuela has been sending hundreds of oil barrels to Cuba for a few years now, do you think the average cuban has seen his life improved JUST ONE BIT? I don´t think so.

I am also against some US policies, but believe me, Castro is not the solution either mate.

You 2 live in a delirious world.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
Fair enough, but what we find quite disturbing is somebody that cheers up Chavez knowing all the damage he has done (and will continue to) do to Venezuela.

Look MIA, I respect your opinion but obviously we have different concept about democracy.From my point of view pvjin used a very mature explanation [But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.]



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1877 times:

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 41):

You still have not given me your reasons to support Chavez, (obviously you have NONE, just the old ¨He stands up against the US bullcrap) and all you did was copy someone else´s post.

And believe me if you were in the situations of Venezuelans having to choose between Chavez ¨Socialism¨ and a US influence right wing yidda yadda fake democracy, that at least guarantees MY freedoms and my will to work and build a better life, that´s what you would choose.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1875 times:

And believe me, I am just as tired as everyone else´s of the current ¨Democracies¨ around the world, and specially here in Spain, yes I would love a change, yes I would love to have someone with guts to come around here, clean the house and put things straight.

But a totalitarian figure who is only looking to his own interests is not the answer, and Chavez has been in power for 14 years already and the country has gone from bad to worse.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 40):
And supporting Cuba is a good thing because?

Supporting an oppresive government that kills and prosecutes any form of opposition? and oppresses their own people without any form of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose who will govern them or freedon to move around freely if wished so? you think that´s good?

Venezuela has been sending hundreds of oil barrels to Cuba for a few years now, do you think the average cuban has seen his life improved JUST ONE BIT? I don´t think so.

I am also against some US policies, but believe me, Castro is not the solution either mate.

I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore. Also Castro has done just what he had to keep United States from invading Cuba a way or another, had US not been hostile I doubt Cuba would be like this today.

And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.


Sure things could be better in Cuba, but without Fidel they could be much worse. At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education, both that they lacked while Batista was still in power and about 50% of Cubans couldn't read & had really short life expectancy. At that time they were practically slaves of US corporations and small rich ruling elite.


Of course I would want Cuba to have more democracy and freedoms to the people (and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Also yes, I do think at least part of that oil has been used for good of the people. Also part of it goes probably to growing tourism industry, and that on the other hand offers locals money as entrepreneurship is now allowed.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore. Also Castro has done just what he had to keep United States from invading Cuba a way or another, had US not been hostile I doubt Cuba would be like this today.

Just because they don´t come out to the public light, doesn´t mean they don´t happen...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.

I believe the majority of Cubans do not support Castro, but when you are threatened, chased and forced to support him, and all signs of an opposition is swiftly wiped out, I guess it´s pretty easy to see why he has remained in power for so long.

Ask the average Cuban (if there are any in Finland) how´s life back in the island, and I bet they won´t picture a pretty story, they lived it and they really know what goes on.

And please, in quality of living I think Cuba is not that far from Haiti... some places in Havana are not that different from Port au Prince.

And I find it funny that you criticize capitalism, when according to your flag live in Finland, sure its easy to applaud a tyran and wear a Che Guevara shirt from the comfort of your Ikea furnished home in Helsinki or Turku or Rovaniemi, with your high speed internet, comfy chair and decent computer and luxuries, when there is people suffering living under an oppressing regime, I find this very hippocritical and selfish.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Sure things could be better in Cuba, but without Fidel they could be much worse. At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education, both that they lacked while Batista was still in power and about 50% of Cubans couldn't read & had really short life expectancy. At that time they were practically slaves of US corporations and small rich ruling elite.

Batista was deposed back in the 50´s have Cuba remained or gained some sort of democracy and freedom, I am pretty sure they would have evolved and be on par with other caribbean/Latin american nations with or without their rough edges, or given the close proximity of the US, a lot of investment in tourism and industry. oh yeah... those darn evil right wing capitalist.

Heck, even Europe back in the 50s was still recovering from the war, and do you think we are were we are now because of a communist regime? hey it´s not perfect but at least we can live freely, move to wichever country in Europe takes our fancy, trade, study, work, and express ourselves.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Of course I would want Cuba to have more democracy and freedoms to the people (and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Least corrupt? really? LOL.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Also yes, I do think at least part of that oil has been used for good of the people. Also part of it goes probably to growing tourism industry, and that on the other hand offers locals money as entrepreneurship is now allowed.

Probably, but still way short of what it should be.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:07:30]

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:08:15]

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:11:33]


I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

This reminds me of a debate between a deluded socialist, place of residence London (I hasten to say it could've been any EU country, that's not the point) and a couple of Venezuelans in the comments of an article of The Economist on the Venezuelan elections.

The deluded socialist argued that Venezuelans were much better off and everyone was happy, all actual Venezuelans were denying this and backing this up with personal experiences and numbers. However, the deluded socialist maintained that they were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about.

Chavez now saying he needs six more years to finish the revolution reminds me awfully of the continuous five year promises made by the Soviet Union. For some reason, governments like this always argue that the future will be better because the people are suffering now, from their temporary policies...

That brings me on another question for our Venezuelan friends here: to what extent can we believe in the moderate comments by Chavez after the election (that he will become a better president, with room for dialogue and all)?


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1827 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
Ahmadinejad and Co than investing in the country.

And Argentina (Just 3 bllion USD were secretly given to the Argentine coffers in the last few months) Nicaragua, Eacuador and Bolivia.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
*Almost no industry left, because he went on an ¨expropriation¨ spree, taking away companies from private investors, destroying jobs and the economy in the way and letting those companies, farms, businesess just rot away because he did not care afterwards.

You have to give him this: He pays what he takes, at least, unlike her friend down in the Southern Cone.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
I invite you to go to Venezuela and live like a venezuelan, see how long can you handle it, running back to your house at 6pm because you don´t know if you will make it back home alive

There are no police patrols in Caracas after Midnight. This was decided after so many officers were being killed between midnight and morning. And yes, you will make it home alive as long as you are not carying a notebook, an Iphone, some new sneakers, or even a watch. Venezuela is now the second most unsafe country in the world, just behind Honduras.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail

Oh. Great. That is so much better. I´m glad that is more palatable to you.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista

Have you been to Cuba? You´d be surprised how little they know about other parts of the world. Beyond the idealization of Miami as some sort of paradise, they think Mexicans live in huts. But yes, Batista was another greedy idiot, one can´t dispute that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education

Not anymore my friend. Education has not gone downhill so badly, but in terms of healthcare, it ain´t what it used to be. For examle:

Chavez has required three surgeries, so far. The second one was carried out by Russian surgeons to fix the butchery carried out by Cuban surgeons in the first one. It is speculated that if this had not happen, the third surgery would not have been required. If this is the healthcare that the Castro´s buddy gets, I´d hate to know what the average Cuban is receiving nowadays.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
(and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Least corrupt? Maybe. Ever? Come on. He has his stash, and it´s a significant one.


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
As the saying does ¨People without education is people easier to fool¨

Democracy has its downsides. Lack of education is its worst enemy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore.

Well, that's just fine, then.   

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education,

Yes, it's like paradise down there...

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):
(that he will become a better president, with room for dialogue and all)?

Given it's track record, you can take that to the bank...  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.

Hate to nitpick, but "capitalist" and "dictatorship" completely contradictory. Capitalism is almost 100% freedom to start and grow a business that sells products that your customers want. Supply and Demand. The fact that you own a computer and bought the membership to join A.net, for example, is capitalism.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):

Six more years, as if 14 years has not been enough, and he actually said he promises to be a better president this time! so Mr Chavez, what exactly have you been doing these past 14 years then?

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):

I'll give him 2 weeks and he will be back to his old self, now he talks of peace and unity and understanding between opposition and officialism, but I bet on his next TV charade he will be boasting about how he "crushed" the neoliberal opposition, and that they do not have any voice on his government 'cause in this house I am in charge. just watch this space.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):

3 Billion! geez!

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):

Yup Cuban jails are such paradise.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):

Dude, you even get shot for not having anything of value andvtherefore " wasting " the thief's time.

MIAspotter



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7913 posts, RR: 51
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore.

WOW. I have disagreed with many of your arguments but respected them (more or less in the past,) but really? It's ok they are sent to jail for disagreeing since they aren't being killed? I mean I know the US isn't perfect but come on



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1758 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 49):
Hate to nitpick, but "capitalist" and "dictatorship" completely contradictory. Capitalism is almost 100% freedom to start and grow a business that sells products that your customers want. Supply and Demand. The fact that you own a computer and bought the membership to join A.net, for example, is capitalism.

Yeah and who says that there couldn't be a dictatorship where you are free to handle your own business and such but non democratic government does all the political decision? It's still called a dictatorship as in democracy people should have the power to make political decisions too.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 48):
Yes, it's like paradise down there...

There is no paradise on this planet and money & being able to buy loads of stuff doesn't give you happiness. Just look at this country, we have money and stuff that we can buy it and yet also one of the highest depression and suicide rates in the world.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 45):
I believe the majority of Cubans do not support Castro, but when you are threatened, chased and forced to support him, and all signs of an opposition is swiftly wiped out, I guess it´s pretty easy to see why he has remained in power for so long.

Okay. Well I still believe that no dictatorship can sustain itself for over 50 years without big amount of support from the people. In North Korea that support has been of course gotten through extreme brainwashing, but in Cuba it's based on true respect of Cuban people towards their leader. Also let's remember that CIA has tried to assassinate him so many times, I find it hard to believe that he would still be alive if Cubans had actually hated him and thus supported CIA operations to kill Castro.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Chavez has required three surgeries, so far. The second one was carried out by Russian surgeons to fix the butchery carried out by Cuban surgeons in the first one. It is speculated that if this had not happen, the third surgery would not have been required. If this is the healthcare that the Castro´s buddy gets, I´d hate to know what the average Cuban is receiving nowadays.

Okay, I blame US embargo for that then.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Have you been to Cuba? You´d be surprised how little they know about other parts of the world. Beyond the idealization of Miami as some sort of paradise, they think Mexicans live in huts. But yes, Batista was another greedy idiot, one can´t dispute that.

Yes I have been, though only for 2 weeks but at least that's better than nothing. We went through many Cuban cities and compared to scenes from true developing countries it isn't bad at all, loads of healthy and happy looking people around.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2216 posts, RR: 8
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 30):
But I'm calling Karma on this one. The amount of violence and deaths he is directly or indirectly responsible for is incredible. His only real policy is demagogy, axed on the hatred for the evil forces that are the rich, the capitalists and the western nations that harbor them...

Yep Karma wil get him....just look at Castro rotting away for years... not for us to judge, but we are lucky enough to see them and its consequences.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.

I hate US politics because its simply a parade of thiefs, But Saying Venezuelan Socialism is Good or better than .... is like saying a murderer is better than other, because the killings of one are more classy.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
I invite you to go to Venezuela and live like a venezuelan, see how long can you handle it, running back to your house at 6pm because you don´t know if you will make it back home alive, and making lines at Mercal or PDVAL to get whatever food happens to be available at the time, and just basically living in constant fear... you will be winging your way to the nearest SK plane out of there.

DING DING DING we have a winner here, as we say here in Mexico, its very different to see the bullfight from the benches, than be down there with the Bull. Venezuela is very dangerous, and its dictator Chavez is a person who likes to get into others countries politics (exports the Venezuelan Dream). Just like Papy Castro did in the 60 70 and 80s.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Of course I would want Cuba to have more democracy and freedoms to the people (and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Least corrupted leaders.... what a Joke. A dictator by definition is a corrupted leader. omg!!!

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
You have to give him this: He pays what he takes, at least, unlike her friend down in the Southern Cone.

Yep, Argentina is another country on its way to a major catastrophe, but that is another topic.

I have a lot of Venezuelan Friends I wish them good luck.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
Least corrupted leaders.... what a Joke. A dictator by definition is a corrupted leader. omg!!!

Not necessarily if a dictator actually uses his power and money for good of his people instead of sending it to Swiss bank accounts and buying luxury.

But okay while I wrote this I was mainly thinking about George W Bush and many other US presidents and how much destruction around the world they have caused.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
Yeah and who says that there couldn't be a dictatorship where you are free to handle your own business and such but non democratic government does all the political decision? It's still called a dictatorship as in democracy people should have the power to make political decisions too.

You contradicted yourself. Seriously grab a dictionary and look up "dictatorship in modern senses of the word."

A dictatorship means total governmental control. That means that any sort of private enterprise- i.e. Capitalism - would have to be through the government itself, in a dictatorial state. It's completely baseless. Our democracy in the US has complete opportunities to have an election for political decisions. We have elections at 3 or 4 levels- sublocal, local, state, and federal (governmental). When something we want changed gets on the ballot we vote.

Now tell me again that I live in a dictatorship. Obama's a huge jackass and the worst president we've ever had, but far and away from being a dictator.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Chavez has required three surgeries, so far. The second one was carried out by Russian surgeons to fix the butchery carried out by Cuban surgeons in the first one. It is speculated that if this had not happen, the third surgery would not have been required. If this is the healthcare that the Castro´s buddy gets, I´d hate to know what the average Cuban is receiving nowadays.

Okay, I blame US embargo for that then.

Why? What's your base?

Seriously bro you can't keep blaming the US. We've done a lot of stuff to keep people free but once we get our tails outta that country someone comes in and screws it up. The embargo is necessary because of the condition we have with Cuba. I see the embargo ending in about 15 years when Cuba transitions into a market economy. It's almost inevitable given the economic state of Cuba.

We have an embargo as well to choke the dictatorship into allowing more freedoms for their people. The moment someone in another nation becomes politically oppressed, this is where I personally draw the line. Stop helping countries that abuse their people.

Seriously, read some history books, go on Wiki, do something. Stop simply saying "Oh I blame the US" because it is 100% factually wrong.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1698 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 30):
These countries do need more social laws to help decrease the huge gap separating classes, but they are unlikely to happen this way...

And were they likely to happen with the other candidate ? That's the question in a two man election isn't it ?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 33):
I like Sarkozy but maybe he didn't do quite enough. Hollande is just going to ruin france's government debt

So far Hollande is on course to control the deficit. Sarkozy added 50% to the debt of the country, and if we add the 5 years of right wing government before he was president, a government he was a minister of, including finance minister, the debt doubled in 10 years under his party's watch. Right wingers are often good at rhetoric about fiscal responsibility, but poor at execution.

Quoting AA757MIA (Reply 35):
Correct! They have the money to buy votes, control of all the institutions, airwaves, newspapers...

Venezuelans televisions, radios and papers are mostly private and in the hands of the US backed opposition. In fact the current mess in the country can be in part attributed to these media, instead of being ethical, showing the good along with the bad, they were so against Chavez that they greatly helped in dividing the country. It's like if the US had only Fox, Limbaugh and company on every channel.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 49):
Hate to nitpick, but "capitalist" and "dictatorship" completely contradictory. Capitalism is almost 100% freedom to start and grow a business that sells products that your customers want. Supply and Demand. The fact that you own a computer and bought the membership to join A.net, for example, is capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production. If the capital is in the hands of a few friends/family members of the government (or sometimes army, like in Egypt), it's still capitalism, and has of course little to do with freedom and democracy. In fact capitalism was born long before democracy had any footing (if we don't count Greek democracies, which of course had little caveats like slavery).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1698 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
A dictatorship means total governmental control. That means that any sort of private enterprise- i.e. Capitalism - would have to be through the government itself,

Okay, apparently Cuba isn't a dictatorship anymore then as there is small scale entrepreneurship independent from the government. Also are you saying that Chile wasn't a dictatorship under rule of Augusto Pinochet, or Haiti under rule of Duvaliers? Both I think allowed also private sector to work.

Like written on post before this one capitalism and dictatorship and both exist in same country, capitalism is economic system and dictatorship governmental system, a dictatorship doesn't need to limit free market at all.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
Now tell me again that I live in a dictatorship. Obama's a huge jackass and the worst president we've ever had, but far and away from being a dictator.

No president can be worse than George W Bush, huge war criminal and also an idiot. Obama has probably been the best president in decades, he has tried to make US more equal country and also has tried to be diplomatic instead of George W Bush and others who attacked other countries for no valid reason.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
We have an embargo as well to choke the dictatorship into allowing more freedoms for their people. The moment someone in another nation becomes politically oppressed, this is where I personally draw the line. Stop helping countries that abuse their people.

Over 50 years of embargo has caused way more problems to ordinary people than to Cuban government. Whole idea of embargo doing anything good is totally flawed as it usually only increases support of a dictatorship. Also Cuba was a dictatorship even before Castro, actually way worse one, yet US had no problem with dealing it.

The ultimate fact is that US has an embargo against United States has nothing to do with human rights situation in Cuba, but it's 100% about the fact that Castro hasn't allowed US corporations to freely steal Cuban resources like Batista did allow them to do.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
Seriously, read some history books, go on Wiki, do something. Stop simply saying "Oh I blame the US" because it is 100% factually wrong.

It's not, embargo has made Cuba poorer country than it would be without this embargo, and that has also negatively affected quality of healthcare.

My history is fine thanks to Finnish education system which is completely superior to one in United States and other countries under its corrupting influence.

[Edited 2012-10-10 11:10:55]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 54):
Not necessarily if a dictator actually uses his power and money for good of his people instead of sending it to Swiss bank accounts and buying luxury.

And please list me any dictator who has used his power and money for the ¨GOOD¨of its people?

- Stalin? nope
- The Kim´s clan in North Korea? nope
- Mugabe? nope
- Ghadaffi? nope
- Castro? nope

Etc, etc.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
Okay, apparently Cuba isn't a dictatorship anymore then as there is small scale entrepreneurship independent from the government. Also are you saying that Chile wasn't a dictatorship under rule of Augusto Pinochet, or Haiti under rule of Duvaliers? Both I think allowed also private sector to work.

Is the people in Cuba allowed to vote in an open democratic election with many options? errr nope... so then it is still a dictatorship.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
Now tell me again that I live in a dictatorship. Obama's a huge jackass and the worst president we've ever had, but far and away from being a dictator.

I wouldn´t say Obama has been that bad, given the current state of affairs all over the world, but that is up to the American people to decide.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 58):
And please list me any dictator who has used his power and money for the ¨GOOD¨of its people?

- Stalin? nope
- The Kim´s clan in North Korea? nope
- Mugabe? nope
- Ghadaffi? nope
- Castro? nope

Etc, etc.

Castro has as he created good quality healthcare and education system while Batista and Duvaliers in Haiti mainly concentrated on keeping it all themselves, so I would say that he has used some of his power and money for good of Cuban people.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 58):
Is the people in Cuba allowed to vote in an open democratic election with many options? errr nope... so then it is still a dictatorship.

Yeah, but this other guy claimed that private entrepreneurship and capitalism as a whole can't exist in a dictatorship when it clearly does.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6216 posts, RR: 30
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1673 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
Okay, apparently Cuba isn't a dictatorship anymore then as there is small scale entrepreneurship independent from the government.

Go stand in the Plaza de la Revolución with a Megaphone shouting demands for basic freedoms and human rights and a large tarp with said, written in it. See how quickly you discover how yes, Cuba is a dictatorship.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
No president can be worse than George W Bush, huge war criminal and also an idiot. Obama has probably been the best president in decades, he has tried to make US more equal country and also has tried to be diplomatic instead of George W Bush and others who attacked other countries for no valid reason.

Do you have numbers, statistics and other hard data to prove what you are saying? If not, then the above is just your opinion. It has the relevance of any opinion.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
Over 50 years of embargo has caused way more problems to ordinary people than to Cuban government. Whole idea of embargo doing anything good is totally flawed as it usually only increases support of a dictatorship. Also Cuba was a dictatorship even before Castro, actually way worse one, yet US had no problem with dealing it.

Wrong. The Castos are pretty happy with the Embargo. It allows them to have a tangible enemy with which to keep brainwashing its people, as well as a scapegoat for all the problems they have that relate to many internal issues, most not having to do with the Embargo. Once the Embargo is dropped, The Castros won´t last 5 years. Sure, Batista was a worse dictatorship. What´s your point?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
It's not, embargo has made Cuba poorer country than it would be without this embargo, and that has also negatively affected quality of healthcare.
My history is fine thanks to Finnish education system which is completely superior to one in United States and other countries under its corrupting influence.

Apparently not in the Latin American history department. Either that, or the books they have on it back in Finland are from the 70s.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 60):
Wrong. The Castos are pretty happy with the Embargo. It allows them to have a tangible enemy with which to keep brainwashing its people, as well as a scapegoat for all the problems they have that relate to many internal issues, most not having to do with the Embargo. Once the Embargo is dropped, The Castros won´t last 5 years. Sure, Batista was a worse dictatorship. What´s your point?

Still many of those problems do have something to do with embargo, and again this proves that US idea of embargo doing any good has totally failed.

And sure they won't, Fidel and his brother are old men and it's just matter of time until power is going to be switched to someone else peacefully.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 60):
o you have numbers, statistics and other hard data to prove what you are saying? If not, then the above is just your opinion. It has the relevance of any opinion.

Yes it's just my opinion, I never claimed it to be anything else. I just don't like presidents who go and start useless wars like Iraq one where hundreds of thousands died for nothing and made Iraq much less safe country for decades, not to mention health problems caused by US forces using uranium ammunition.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 60):
Go stand in the Plaza de la Revolución with a Megaphone shouting demands for basic freedoms and human rights and a large tarp with said, written in it. See how quickly you discover how yes, Cuba is a dictatorship.

I know it's a dictatorship, that was just an answer to this other guy who claimed that no private entrepreneurship can exist in a dictatorship while it does.

I don't really care if I am allowed to do such stuff or not, usually demonstrating is waste of time that has no effect in government policies unless they are really huge and countrywide ones.

"Apparently not in the Latin American history department. Either that, or the books they have on it back in Finland are from the 70s."

Nah, they are simply not politically biased like in some other countries.

[Edited 2012-10-10 12:04:00]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7913 posts, RR: 51
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
Seriously, read some history books, go on Wiki, do something. Stop simply saying "Oh I blame the US" because it is 100% factually wrong.

While I agree he probably does blame America for way more than is warranted (some stuff just happens and no country is perfect) we have our fair share of mistakes... I don't care if we apologize for them or not, but I hope we at least acknowledge them in the future and not make mistakes.

He's right, IMO, the embargo on Cuba is totally pointless. If we're gonna play the democracy card, we should embargo a whole bunch of other countries that have dictators, not give them money (look at pre-revolution Egypt.) No one cares about Communism anymore... Cuba is completely not a threat. Let's just open up the country



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
Obama has probably been the best president in decades, he has tried to make US more equal country and also has tried to be diplomatic instead of George W Bush and others who attacked other countries for no valid reason.

You've gotta be kidding me big time here.
Bush is irrelevant, no one likes Bush.
Obama has done NOTHING to make things "equal," instead instilled the failures of socialism on our country. We have added so much to our debt and he has done nothing to control the debt and wars that Bush started. In a sense, he just continued Bush's doctrines. Obama increased taxes on the people that hire, and are planning taxes on the so-called 1% which in reality is probably about 40% of the country.

My family, for example, is middle class, and everything we own has gone down in value under the Obama administration. We want that jackass voted out. We don't want to be europe.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 57):
My history is fine thanks to Finnish education system which is completely superior to one in United States and other countries under its corrupting influence.

yeah you're still in school. You have a LOT to learn because you seem to be indoctrinated. And no educational system is "superior" to another. It all depends on the student and clearly that isn't the case for a lot of people.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 58):
And please list me any dictator who has used his power and money for the ¨GOOD¨of its people?

THIS.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 58):
I wouldn´t say Obama has been that bad, given the current state of affairs all over the world, but that is up to the American people to decide.

You gotta be here to see how tense the country is. Obama largely divided our country along party and economic lines. It's like, it's a total mortal sin to be a successful person anymore in this country

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
we have our fair share of mistakes...

Oh I'll be the first to agree but you can't blame us 100%.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7913 posts, RR: 51
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 63):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
we have our fair share of mistakes...

Oh I'll be the first to agree but you can't blame us 100%.

Agreed. I just see some absolutes being thrown around from both sides here. I can see pvjin is really striking a nerve... he'd really make the me of a few years ago mad too. He has come from a very different background, may be a little off the mark in some regards (IMO, sorry mate) but he does bring up some very valid points that us Americans don't really see, ones that are VERY prevalent. I'd take note of them, hearing some truths that are hard to listen to as an American really got me to see the world from a different perspective (or maybe I'm just brainwashed   )

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 63):
Obama largely divided our country along party and economic lines.

Um, I hear this and I used to believe this. All I heard were some selective soundbites. But I've been watching more raw footage of him... yes, I disagree with much of what he does. But watching his speeches and what he is trying to accomplish for America, while different from many people, it's hard to say he has malicious intent and that he's trying to "divide" anyone. He's had his fair share of mistakes, not gonna argue that. But this Libya incident really opened my eyes to who I think are really the dividers... many in the GOP. Right when the ___ hit the fan in Libya, they went through a tornado of criticism, finally settling on one (that he didn't call it a terrorist attack, just an uprising or whatever.) They created the anger THEN found a reason out. Everything the poor guy does comes under attack. You could have the Second Coming as President and you could always find something wrong with what he does... that's the problem I see with the GOP. Too critical. And this is coming from someone that voted GOP pretty much the whole time up until ~2010



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
I'd take note of them, hearing some truths that are hard to listen to as an American really got me to see the world from a different perspective (or maybe I'm just brainwashed )

Maybe I'm brainwashed too, but my world view is mostly influenced on the fact that I indeed am a libertarian-ish republican and that I've been to Europe and Japan.

I always tell myself, if PHX existed in Japan, as the city, and was filled with Japanese people, I would be in heaven   I love the politics and the planning of both Japan and Phoenix (despite the fact that Japan's government is screwed up- the companies are the ones who save their arses)



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAA757MIA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 56):
Venezuelans televisions, radios and papers are mostly private and in the hands of the US backed opposition. In fact the current mess in the country can be in part attributed to these media, instead of being ethical, showing the good along with the bad, they were so against Chavez that they greatly helped in dividing the country. It's like if the US had only Fox, Limbaugh and company on every channel.

You obviously have not heard about the thousands of new, public funded, "community" newspapers, TV and radio stations that are only used to publish and transmit government propaganda...

Not too mention that private media is auto censured, to avoid been closed down (like RCTV) or fined if they "cross the line".


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

So ? Does the US vilify Russia or China, such free countries with free press and no political opponents in prison and fair elections ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
A.Net US Presidential Elections 2007 Results posted Fri Jun 8 2007 20:27:42 by Dsa
A.Net International US Presidential Elections 2007 posted Mon Jun 4 2007 20:20:18 by Dsa
Mexican Presidential Elections 2006 posted Thu May 4 2006 02:06:01 by Marcus
The Presidential Elections Are In N-O-V-E-M-B-E-R! posted Sun Feb 29 2004 16:55:55 by Aloges
2012 Presidential Election - Nominate A Republican posted Sun Nov 16 2008 08:35:32 by 1337Delta764
F1 2012: Japanese Grand Prix Suzuka posted Fri Oct 5 2012 00:47:29 by MadameConcorde
Probably One Of The Most Vapid Threads Of 2012 posted Tue Oct 2 2012 14:28:30 by zippyjet
Here Comes The Presidential Debates posted Tue Oct 2 2012 12:45:15 by Ken777
F1 2012: Singapore Grand Prix posted Sat Sep 22 2012 07:56:51 by scbriml
Self-Pic Thread September 2012 posted Fri Sep 21 2012 21:25:47 by 777222LR