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Gary McKinnon To Stay In The UK  
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
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Gary McKinnons extradition to the US has been blocked by the UK home secratary, Theresa May.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19957138

McKinnon Admits to having hacked into US goverment computer systems claims to have been looking for evidence that the US Government were covering up UFO information.

McKinnon, 46, sufferes from Asperger's syndrome and it is said that if he were extradited to the US there is a strong chance he would try to take his own life and has therefore had his extradition blocked on human rights grounds.

What do you think? Should he have been extradited? Should the people being dragged over the coals be the ones who developed a computer system vulnerable to actions such as his?

Fred

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter):
What do you think? Should he have been extradited?

Yes, he should have been extradited.

Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter):
sufferes from Asperger's syndrome

So? Has anyone here actually heard him speak? I have, hes very articulate and quite "normal". His aspergers is just an excuse...

Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter):
it is said that if he were extradited to the US there is a strong chance he would try to take his own life

Diddums, so if someone says "Im going to kill myself if Im extradited" then thats it. I wonder if Abu Hamza could have used that line...

Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter):
Should the people being dragged over the coals be the ones who developed a computer system vulnerable to actions such as his?

Wtf? Seriously, wtf? So lets just forget the fact that this guy did something illegal, its all the "victims" fault for having an "insecure" system (some of the stuff McKinnon did to gain access was fairly sophisticated stuff)?

Why can't both be "dragged over the coals" for their own respective acts? Someone would have been seriously bollocked after the security audit that the McKinnon case would have triggered, but why should McKinnon not be prosecuted for hacking as well?


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2136 times:
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Against the backdrop of unspeakably wicked foreign criminals being cllowed to stay in the UK on human rights grounds, there is no way he should be extradited. Apples and oranges? Maybe, but there is a loose point there. If he did wrong he should be tried here anyway, not sent to a country he has never set foot in.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Except his crimes where against computers and systems in the US.

The US is the correct jurisdiction.

I suspect there is an internal political reason my not doing the right thing, maybe a tie-in to that moron Assange



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

I think it's good he was kept here.

He committed the crime in the UK so that's where he should be charged and prosecuted, not a place where he's not even been.

I'm not saying what he did was right - it wasn't, not by a long stretch, but you can't just extradite people willynilly.


User currently offlineMattH From Canada, joined Mar 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
but you can't just extradite people willynilly.

It's not willy nilly - it was due to his offences being committed against America.



"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

He should be punished, I think most agree on this.
But he faced up to 60 years in a US prison!

He was not a terrorist, just a dupe obsessed with UFO's.
That he, with minimal equipment, no formal training, could do what he did to the secure networks of a superpower really says more about the ineptitude of these responsible for cyber-security. (Were any of them even sacked?)

I cannot agree with Moo, he might be fairly articulate (he's been saying the same thing for 10 years) but you can sense he's not quite there in some respects.

A more sensible course for all concerned would have been for McKinnon to be extensively de-briefed by US cyber security people, in the UK, with the understanding he'll face any charges in the UK.
Frankly, the potential sentence from a US court smacked of vindictiveness, no justice system can be based only that that.
Such a heavy sentence might be, in the US, quite applicable to some hacker who did so as part of a terrorist network, but really, McKinnon? He's only ever been a danger to himself.

Maybe the Pentagon should be, in a sense, grateful that the total inadequacy of cyber security of vital networks, was attacked just by a UFO obsessed eccentric, not anyone with far darker intent.
Al Queda must have kicked themselves for missing that chance.

While naturally the US will be disappointed, bear in mind that the UK never got one IRA suspect on the run in the US, including those charged with murder, extradited to the UK.
US courts would not grant an extradition.
That would not have informed the decision of the UK Government with McKinnon but it's food for thought and maybe, provides some perspective.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
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The decision is absolutely correct and proper.

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
His aspergers is just an excuse...

An "excuse" he's suffered from his entire life? Unlike Abu Hamza's sudden health issues, nobody disputes McKinnon suffers with Aspergers. It doesn't excuse his crime, but is a perfectly valid reason why he shouldn't be extradited.

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
"Im going to kill myself if Im extradited" then thats it.

No, clearly not, and to claim so is disingenuous at best.

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
but why should McKinnon not be prosecuted for hacking as well?

He should be. In the country where he committed the offence.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
The US is the correct jurisdiction.

Where was the crime committed? What would the US do if he was Chinese or Cuban or Venezuelan?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
I suspect there is an internal political reason my not doing the right thing, maybe a tie-in to that moron Assange

What? This has zero to do with Assange, who will be extradited to Sweden if he ever leaves his bolt-hole. But I think you'll find, for once, Ms May has done the right thing.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

Good. He was on British soil when the crime was committed, and he should therefore remain here. We wouldn't have sent him to the likes of Egypt or Senegal if a similar crime was committed against then...so there is no reason to send him to the US.


Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1377 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

The asperger's is irrelevant- the time for that to be considered is during the trial, not the extradition.

The only question is one of jurisdiction, and I would have thought by now there would be some precedent for remotely committed crimes. Gut feel is that it would make most sense for him to be tried in the US.

Having said all that if the above is all true I'm glad the "wrong" decision was reached.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
An "excuse" he's suffered from his entire life?

What does the length of time he suffers from the disorder have to do with anything? In this particular case, his disorder is being used as an excuse for his crimes...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
but is a perfectly valid reason why he shouldn't be extradited.

... and that is exactly what I am talking about. "He shouldn't be extradited because of his Aspergers...". Rubbish.

A good friend of my wifes is a top orthopedic surgeon in the NHS, and he has fairly severe aspergers. Aspergers doesn't mean these people can't function, it mainly means they have social issues.

McKinnon had the intelligence and ability to carry out a couple of fairly complex hacks - what he did was not the equivalent of typing "12345" as the password, or simply Googling for something. He planned, documented and carried out attacks against chosen targets.

So yes, the aspergers most certainly is being used as an excuse to not extradite him.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
No, clearly not, and to claim so is disingenuous at best.

Thats basically what they've said here - threaten to kill yourself and that must be strongly considered in your favour.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
He should be. In the country where he committed the offence.

He committed offences in both this country and the United States. The grounds for extradition were perfectly legal and proper - note that his extradition was *not* blocked on legal grounds.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
What would the US do if he was Chinese or Cuban or Venezuelan?

Excellent argument - bring several completely anti-US countries into the discussion and ask a stupid question.

What would the US do in those cases? Wait until the person of interest visits a friendly country and extradite them from there. Fairly obvious really.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
but is a perfectly valid reason why he shouldn't be extradited.

... and that is exactly what I am talking about. "He shouldn't be extradited because of his Aspergers...". Rubbish.

A good friend of my wifes is a top orthopedic surgeon in the NHS, and he has fairly severe aspergers. Aspergers doesn't mean these people can't function, it mainly means they have social issues.

Aspergers affects different people in different ways, in this case enough for it to have a bearing on the case.

I also don't believe that cybercrime should be punished on the victim's soil, he committed this act in the UK, he should be tried for it in the UK. What would have happened if he had hacked computers in the USA, the France, Germany, Japan.. I could go on but how can you deal with a crime that has global coverage, except with where the crime was committed.


User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 550 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

I'm just surprised that the US or UK secret anti-cybercrime units (such as they are) didn't hush this up and offer him a job........it appears he's better at their job than they are.........


Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Funny how all the US posters (So far) Think that he should be tried in the US, and all the UK posters (So far) think he should be tried in the UK. In the words of Karl Pilkington, "Weird 'innit"

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1957 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 10):
What does the length of time he suffers from the disorder have to do with anything? In this particular case, his disorder is being used as an excuse for his crimes...

I used it to illustrate the clear difference between a life-long condition and one which might develop as "an opportunity". I never said the condition excused his crime.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
... and that is exactly what I am talking about. "He shouldn't be extradited because of his Aspergers...". Rubbish.

The Home Secretary, on advice from experts, blocked his extradition on medical grounds. The case has exceptional circumstances (her words).

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Thats basically what they've said here - threaten to kill yourself and that must be strongly considered in your favour.

Then you've not listened to what has been said. This decision is specific to this exceptional case.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Excellent argument - bring several completely anti-US countries into the discussion and ask a stupid question.

Since when has China been "completely anti-US"? The point being, a lack of extradition treaty, but if you prefer, stupid.   

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 11):
he committed this act in the UK, he should be tried for it in the UK.

  



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineFlyKev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1940 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter):
sufferes from Asperger's syndrome

So? Has anyone here actually heard him speak? I have, hes very articulate and quite "normal". His aspergers is just an excuse...

I myself am an Aspie, and one of the curses it has given me (if you want to look at it like that) is a very precise and articulate way of talking; through my childhood and even now I get called a "snob" or a "ponce" because of the way I talk; so no you can't say he is using it as an excuse. Unless you know someone with or have Aspergers you will never understand what it is like to have it or what the effects can be.

Likely this guy really did not understand what he was doing and whilst yes he is guilty of a serious crime I fail to see why he needs to be carted across the Atlantic to face these charges when he can be tried here.

Kev.



The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

My step daughter has quite bad aspergers.

Sometimes it's damn annoying, other times it is quite hilarious.

Her social skills are very lacking, and it comes across as if she is giving you a lecture and talking to you in a stern way, and when they talk about something they are passionate about... Try getting them to be quiet.

Going into strange new places where it's crowded can be testing, she will either just go into a shell and no do anything or enjoy it, or she will talk at people about the stuff she is interested in and not let other people get a word in edgways.

This evening we are at the dinner table, and she asks for a drink, I said its in the fridge. So she just sat there and asked again if she could have a drink, again I said it was in the fridge. Roll on a couple of minutes it twigged... It's in the fridge go and help yourself. Which she did.

Both myself and my partner do karate, so did the step daughter. One Saturday night we say to her we we are going to karate in the morning, she took that to mean that she was going. So Saturday night he barricaded herself in her room. Best thing to do is leave her. When she's hungry she will leave the room.

She's in the top 5% at school for science, I.T. and maths.

The point above is that, and I'm going to put it into harsh language. Not everybody with special needs or psychological conditions is a window licker, they don't need to be institutionalised or ride the special bus. They can function in society, but within there own boundaries. As for people hinting that it may be made up, faked or convenient to stop extradition, then shame on you.


As said by a previous poster, the USA should be kissing Gary McKinnons backside, for pointing out how easy it was to break into the computer system. He didn't steal any secrets or sell them to enemy states, he was just a very determined young man looking for the truth about about UFO's.

To have the full weight of supposed American justice pile down on to a guy with clear special needs, it's like using a nuclear bomb to crack a walnut.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting MattH (Reply 5):
It's not willy nilly - it was due to his offences being committed against America.

But he committed them IN THE UK. He's never even set foot in the US, so why try him there?

Like was mentioned above, he's not a hardcore terrorist, he's just some middle aged man who wanted to (allegedly) learn about UFOs and stuff. He wasn't planning on nuking the White House or blowing up the Pentagon.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1849 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 17):

I think the problem is...

Uncle Sam not knowing that there laws end at the territorial waters limit.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1832 times:
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Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 17):
But he committed them IN THE UK. He's never even set foot in the US, so why try him there?
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
Uncle Sam not knowing that there laws end at the territorial waters limit.

Regardless the arguments about McKinnons health. yours and others arguments are moot or at least hypocritical.

The Scottish(UK) courts had no issue with extraditing, trying and imprisoning Abdel Baset al-Megrahi for his involvement in the Lockerbie bombing.
Granted one can argue the crimes differ in magnitude.. al-Megrahi, had not been in the UK when his crimes were committed... should he have been let go free??



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1830 times:

As a matter of curiosity, if he was a US citizen and living in the US and had hacked UK government computers, could/would he be extradited to the UK?

User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
I think the problem is...

Uncle Sam not knowing that there laws end at the territorial waters limit.

Exactly.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):
The Scottish(UK) courts had no issue with extraditing, trying and imprisoning Abdel Baset al-Megrahi for his involvement in the Lockerbie bombing.
Granted one can argue the crimes differ in magnitude.. al-Megrahi, had not been in the UK when his crimes were committed... should he have been let go free??

Err... he WAS set free. Not straight away, granted, but he ended up living another 2 years as a free man when he said he had 3 months, tops.

Not only that, he killed 270 people and incinerated half a town, Gary went noseying for info on UFOs. Not really on the same scale is it?


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Diddums, so if someone says "Im going to kill myself if Im extradited" then thats it. I wonder if Abu Hamza could have used that line...

No, because multiple psychiatric experts testified that he was a suicide risk if he were to be moved to the US. That's why the decision was taken - at least, that's the excuse, and it's valid.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):

Except his crimes where against computers and systems in the US.

The US is the correct jurisdiction.

Nope. Crime was committed here, so he will be tried and will serve here. Extradition is intended to move people who have fled a country where they committed a crime back to their origin, it is NOT meant to be used as a mechanism for the US to pluck any person they want from any country around the world, for any crime 'committed against the US' and put them on trial. Imagine if Pakistan tried to extradite a US national for blaspheming against Mohammed... I doubt the USA would be too happy! Obviously I took that to an extreme, but it illustrates the point.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):

The asperger's is irrelevant- the time for that to be considered is during the trial, not the extradition.

The aspergers is totally relevant, several experts testified that he would be a serious suicide risk if he was extradited.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 20):
As a matter of curiosity, if he was a US citizen and living in the US and had hacked UK government computers, could/would he be extradited to the UK?

Of course not... and that's a major reason as to why the decision was reached; while the excuse used by May is a valid one, it is just an excuse. The real reason is the entire country is sick and tired of our nationals being extradited to the big bully across the pond.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7407 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 20):
As a matter of curiosity, if he was a US citizen and living in the US and had hacked UK government computers, could/would he be extradited to the UK?

Fat chance of that ever happening. I have a Norwegian colleague who's American wife had an affair with another American she worked with, when my colleague was at a trade show she upped and left Norway with her boyfriend and both children, the children were born in Norway and were not US citizens. He's been trying for two years to get the children back, he has the law on his side, but the US authorities won't play ball.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1377 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 13):
Funny how all the US posters (So far) Think that he should be tried in the US, and all the UK posters (So far) think he should be tried in the UK. In the words of Karl Pilkington, "Weird 'innit"

In the words of Victoria Lloyd, "not really".

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
Uncle Sam not knowing that there laws end at the territorial waters limit.

I think the law may be a little more complex than that. What if I do my hacking from international waters? What if the crime I commit isn't a crime in the "source" country but is in the "destination" country? There is a philosophical point about where the crime was committed if it is done remotely. I expect there is some legal precedent, but it's irrelevant here since, as others have mentioned, the extradition was not blocked on legal grounds. Maybe one of our lawyer posters can comment on the legal ramifications of "remote" crimes.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):
The aspergers is totally relevant, several experts testified that he would be a serious suicide risk if he was extradited.

And if somebody commits a crime, do we let them out if they are a suicide risk?

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):
The real reason is the entire country is sick and tired of our nationals being extradited to the big bully across the pond.

Oh grow up. It goes the other way you know. Between 2004 and 2011 there were 130 requests by the US for extradition from the UK, compared with 54 requests from the UK to the US. A total of seven US requests were refused by the UK, compared with none of the UK's requests by the US.

Wah! They're bullying us!  



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
25 Hywel : The extradition treaty has always been a one way street and it is about time we stood up to a government, led by Obama, who hate us. Obama's first mov
26 bueb0g : This isn't about not charging him, this is about not extraditing him. How is that this hard to grasp? He will likely still be charged - here. Where h
27 zckls04 : The public mood in England is a very poor informer of policy decisions, as evidenced by the Daily Mail. It isn't- I was comparing one thing to a diff
28 Aesma : Well I don't think he should get more than a slap on the wrists (along with a thank you for pointing out our vulnerabilities) so clearly he shouldn't
29 GDB : It's only one way due to how the UK government drafted the 2003 Act. I don't see any 'hate' for us in, as likely often happens, a new US President ma
30 Quokkas : Except that the UK does have an extradition treaty that does allow for the US to request the extradition of a person who commits a crime against the
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