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Voter Deception In The Netherlands?  
User currently offlinevandenheuvel From Netherlands, joined Dec 2008, 495 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1109 times:

Hi all,

The Dutch elections nearly two months ago left some of us very skeptical. Two leading parties were basically put on the task of creating a stable government together.

Since then a lot of secret negotiations have been going on between the two and everything seemed fine. Since last week some of their ‘austerity’ measures were made public, witch shocked the country. Especially the right wing. Some of these regulations have not much to do with austerity, these are for financial equality between workers and even the jobless. Furthermore these seem to be very left wing arrangements. While the right wing party (VVD) is actually the biggest party. The real impact of these plans is not published, which leaves us to a lot of guessing and dissatisfaction. A local media corporation (RTL) is starting a legal procedure about this tomorrow.

Some of the plans include;
• A mandatory health insurance priced after your income. Up to 490 euro per month!
• Rent prices based on the combined income of the occupants. This includes working children.
• Abolishment on tax rebate of mortgage interest.

What’s your take on the agreements and the blurred and mixed information given out by politicians? Any more surprises to come? Do you feel deceived by voting for either PvdA or VVD?

I’m now putting on my flame suit.

BTW, I don’t believe the health care arrangements will ever make it through.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1051 times:

Although I am not Dutch I try and keep an interest in other countries' politics... this one caught my eye:

Quoting vandenheuvel (Thread starter):
• Rent prices based on the combined income of the occupants. This includes working children.

basically you're telling landlords how much they are able to charge for properties? Did I get that right?

I know US policies are much different than other countries' policies, but (assuming I understand the concept here) does this plan have a lot of traction? I find that over-controlling



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1045 times:

€490? For health insurance?

I see riots in The Netherlands. That is f**king outrageous.


User currently offlinevandenheuvel From Netherlands, joined Dec 2008, 495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1030 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
basically you're telling landlords how much they are able to charge for properties? Did I get that right?

Details about this aren't clear yet. I think it will be added tax revenue though.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
€490? For health insurance?

I have to ad this is for people making 70000 or more per year. Before tax. The average guy will end up paying about 150 per month. I'm not sure about combined incomes.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1023 times:

Quoting vandenheuvel (Reply 3):

I have to ad this is for people making 70000 or more per year. Before tax.

I'd be unhappy having to pay 490 eur for health insurance on an income of 70k, 70k isn't a large income by any stretch.


User currently offlineFerminios From Canada, joined Apr 2011, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

I voted VVD in the election, and do feel slightly deceived yet I realize that after the election outcome significant compromises were necessary in order to bridge the gap with pretty much the only viable option ,the PvdA.

The health insurance premium idea is not going to make it through because VVD and PvdA don't have a majority in the Senate. The whole idea is ridiculous anyway, since it does not achieve any savings but is rather an operation to move money around. A 'PvdA voter pleaser' that benefits groups that the PvdA appeals most to. The agreement lacks any real noteworthy savings on health care.

The abolishment of tax rebate for mortgage interest is going to be a move operation and I'm all for it. Still, there's much more to be done I think to get a healthy economy in the Netherlands again.

Another annoyance for me is the fact that Diederik Samson is not going to take a position in the new Cabinet. He negotiates all this stuff, and then goes back to lead his party in the House of Commons instead of actually taking up the job as Vice PM.

I'll see how it goes, I do not plan to spend much more than 3 years here in the Netherlands, my plans to return to Canada are in the making  


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 987 times:

Whether you're from the left or the right, why should there be a tax loophole on real estate ? Mind you, we also have those here, but I find them really unfair and contradictory to right-wing principles.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 912 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
basically you're telling landlords how much they are able to charge for properties? Did I get that right?

You did indeed. Actually, landlords are already restricted in the rent they can charge. The only difference would be that they rents can now go up for tennants with higher incomes.

In the Netherlands the rent price is determined based upon a grading system. Each house is given a number of points determined by the city council / borough. Using standardised tables points are awarded based on size, number of bathrooms, proximity to amenities, availability of parking, type of building, local housing scarcity and so on. Only when a house has over 143 points is it exempt from the rules. A house with 143 points or less gets a maximum rent assigned.

If a tennant or landlord does not agre with the grading he/she can ask for a reappraisal.

The reason for this policy is that there is a massive shortage of low and medium budget houses. To make sure starters are able to enter the housing market the prices had to be fixed to some degree. A negative side effect of this rule has been that fewer "cheap" houses are build since they are less profitable.



Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
Whether you're from the left or the right, why should there be a tax loophole on real estate ?

This tax rebate has been assigned for the same reason as the mandatory rent system. The government wanted more people to move up on the property ladder. The idea being that people would move out of their social housing ("the projects" to use a US term) and free up the social houses for starters.



As for the health policy, I am not sure it is really voter deception. It might as well be more a case of stupidity on Rutte's (VVD) part. In the rush to get a new government outline he and his team might have made a simple mistake with the calcualations. It would not be the first time that a multi-billion calculus error was made. For instance the European Support Mechanism that was set up for Greece ended up costing us 50 billion instead of the 25 billion that Rutte anounced, because he made a little (!) mistake.

Anyway, the stink this proposal has raised nationwide will guarantee that the proposal will never be implemented in its current form. Senator Wiegel will see to that. It could be the "Nacht van Wiegel" all over again, when he voted against a proposal leading to the collapse of the second Kok administration in 1999 (PvdA, VVD, D66).



Quoting Ferminios (Reply 5):
Another annoyance for me is the fact that Diederik Samson is not going to take a position in the new Cabinet.

I find this to be just as much a voter deception. Samson (PvdA) is the front runner of his party. His party goes into government with just one seat difference from the VVD, the largest party. In my opionion he should join as VP or at least join as minister on one of the more important ministries. Now he is just cowering away from responsibilities.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 724 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 903 times:

Seems they took a page from our book then ...

at least in regards to:

Quoting vandenheuvel (Thread starter):
• A mandatory health insurance priced after your income. Up to 490 euro per month!

The norm here since the mid 90s (pretty sure Croatia also has the same). If an employee has the minimal legal wage here (iirc around 580€/month) then his employer pays ~105€ per month for health insurance. (theoretically that is not "paid by the employee", but if it didn't exist or was somewhat lower the employee would have a larger salary).

Hope they don't follow the example and make healthcare "free", but whatever the procedure you end up waiting from 1-24 months for it. (well apart from emergencies obviously). Heart surgery iirc is around the 18 month mark (provided you survive that long).

So to mitigate that most people I know also get a "voluntary" medical insurance that costs some 40€/month but guarantees no waiting queues for procedures.

Or if they take another page from our book ... if you're self employed then all these "not-really-taxes-but-you-still-have-to-pay-them" (obligatory health insurance, obligatory pension insurance, etc.) do not count as costs and at the end of the fiscal year you again pay income tax on these "not-taxes".

Hope it's understandable why I'm bitter and disillusioned.

D.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 886 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 7):
In the Netherlands.....

I guess that makes sense, and I'm sure a lot of people love it. It would be unconstitutional in the US and is kind of foreign to us, but I can at least respect that system. Has anyone really objected to that rule?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 872 times:

There are also rules to limit rents in Germany, and in France a law is being discussed right now in congress to do something about it too, since the "free market" is not working.

About health care, ask US members how much it costs in the US...



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 847 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
There are also rules to limit rents in Germany

To my knowledge, there are only rules to limit the raise in rents. Nonetheless "the rent is too damn high" to quote a colorful American and former presidential hopeful. Between 2006 and 2011 rents have raised by ~20 percent in some cities.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 846 times:

I have seen several documentaries where people who find the rent too high go to a special litigation and it is lowered based on the rents in the neighborhood.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 846 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
I have seen several documentaries where people who find the rent too high go to a special litigation and it is lowered based on the rents in the neighborhood.

Yes, that's true and exactly one of the rules I was talking about, sorry about the misunderstanding.
Edit: But the rent can still raise, just not above a certain percentage.

[Edited 2012-11-05 15:23:46]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 844 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
€490? For health insurance?

I see riots in The Netherlands. That is f**king outrageous.

That's about how much my company pays per employee per month here in Portugal, and that's on salaries closer to 20k not 70k ! The minimum self employed contribution here is €270 a month.... which is an insane figure as that is what you can pay if you only earn €500 a month!

Portugal is basically out of money and trying anything what so ever to raise funds. The only way a lot of people can survive is to leave the system, and work cash in hand.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 844 times:

Quoting vandenheuvel (Thread starter):
• A mandatory health insurance priced after your income. Up to 490 euro per month!

Is that in addition to any government healthcare spending or to replace it? If the latter, doesn't sound that bad... how much of your salary do your reckon currently goes into healthcare (hidden in the general tax expense and funneled through some bureaucrat at the Health Ministry) and how would this compare?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
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