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Why did Obama Win?  
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1234 times:

It seems to me the ECONOMY was not the decisive issue as commonly believed: all the polls I saw said Romney was trusted more on economics.

Two things stick out to me about what Republicans may have did wrong:

(1) TACTICALLY, not facing reality and instead arguing the polls were flawed when they could have made a game-changing campaign adjustment, and,

(2) STRATEGICALLY, arguing for the importance of the Benghazi attack, repudiating Obamacare and increasing defense spending and other ideas which aren't big vote-getting ideas for swing moderate voters, but appeal to Republicans

Thoughts?


I really hope America gets its fiscal house in order and do wish the great American people a successful future!


Pu

243 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1240 times:

Quoting pu (Thread starter):
(1) TACTICALLY, not facing reality and instead arguing the polls were flawed when they could have made a game-changing campaign adjustment, and,

Tactically- Focusing on pushing Obama in a wall where Obama has failed, such as in Nevada and Ohio, where populations are still out of work in large numbers,

Quoting pu (Thread starter):
(2) STRATEGICALLY, arguing for the importance of the Benghazi attack, repudiating Obamacare and increasing defense spending and other ideas which aren't big vote-getting ideas for swing moderate voters, but appeal to Republicans

EXACTLY. In all seriousness, Romney was NOT persuasive enough.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1237 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
EXACTLY. In all seriousness, Romney was NOT persuasive enough.

It may have helped if he had actually had a platform both the candidate and the running mate could support. Romney/Ryan were both supporting a RNC platform that neither one of them personally believed them, and would say anything to any audience to get elected.

If this election proved anything, it's that deceit can't get you elected to the highest office of the land. Obama may not have had the greatest first term, but at least he had something people could sympathize with and a record to prove it. Romney had a record but he didn't endorse it as his own!

Case in point: Romneycare.

I'm personally impressed so many thought this would be a close election. It really shouldn't have been. Why support a guy who can't remember what's on his website?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1242 times:

Quoting pu (Thread starter):
Two things stick out to me about what Republicans may have did wrong:

They had the wrong guy. Obama didn't win as much as Romney lost.

The real issue is where do they go from here. I think they have two years to find their man, and launch a long campaign. I'd pick Huntsman as my early favorite, if he's up to it, but they need a candidate and fast. Everybody knew from about 2004 on that Obama was going to be the guy in 2008, with even Hillary being only a brief, fringe contender. And the guy has to be strong economically, and moderate on everything else. The economy is where the Republicans had a chance to win this time and where they'll have a chance to win next time.

As they look for their man and after they find him, they need to launch an all out war. The Republicans need to grow the teeth that up until now only the Tea Party has had and blast the economic failures of the Democrats and general idiocy of the Tea Party. It's at four years and counting, so there's plenty there. They need to compile a resume of economic failure.

And, above all, stop listening to the Tea Partiers. They aren't going anywhere, so there's no reason to pander to them or be scared of them. Republicans need to drop social issues entirely and focus on their strength, which is the economy.

The economic troubles left the Republicans a hanging curveball just begging to get whacked. But they swung and missed and are now faced with four years of damage control, during which time they should spend as much time as possible on the offensive.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejakeorion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1248 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1236 times:

Romney did not give clear cut answers nor details on his policies; too focused on bashing the President while refusing to acknowledge this has been a disaster in the making over several Presidencies; too focused on social issues; picked by stupid establishment Republicans after their own greed and power rather than addressing the wounds America.

Romney was a DOA as soon as the establishment picked him. Never wanted to vote for him, as I knew it was not going to do any good.



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1236 times:

Why Obama won. You want the real reason?

Hispanic Vote, Gender Gap.
That is all, that is the reason. This country is changing demographically if the Miitt who ran for govenours could get through the GOP primary he would have won this election. The hard right of the GOP is what needs to change.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 5):
Hispanic Vote, Gender Gap.

I'd add a highly sophisticated "get out the vote" program in the most strategic areas. If anything, the Obama campaign knew where their voters were, and got them to the polls.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13048 posts, RR: 78
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1237 times:

The news is saying that women, younger women, younger single ones especially, really turned out to vote.
If so, will the GOP let up on this obsession with not just female reproductive rights, but from some of them, even contraception?
Easy to say, harder to convince enough of their base?

Seems odd when the economy is seen to be THE issue of course but could this biggest of all the 'culture wars' just been enough?

Then there has been the attitude towards the growing Hispanic population from some of the GOP, quite apart from the demographics involved, there is a pretty solid law in democracies everywhere, if a party gives the impression it does not like or approve of parts of a population, they won't win.
Because all those minorities can add up.

[Edited 2012-11-06 21:51:43]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

He got the unconditional support of 47% of the Americans. That's why, dear gentlemen and gentlewomen. 


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I'd add a highly sophisticated "get out the vote" program in the most strategic areas. If anything, the Obama campaign knew where their voters were, and got them to the polls.

MANY Ron Paul supporters did NOT vote for Romney. or O.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

I think it was an issue of personality at the end of the day; Romney was simply not likeable; Huckabee got it right when he said that Romney looks like the guy who fires you. Obama was by far the more personable, empathatic and likeable of the two.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

If you look at Ohio (and other industrial states) I think the reason is Obama's support for the auto industry and Romney's lack of support. Obama took a lot of heat at the time, but it was the right decision.

As much as opponents trashed ObamaCare the reality is they everyone who has a member of their family with a "pre-existing condition" knows it was a critical reform. Also, anyone who understands that a big chunk of their health insurance premium is to cover those who cannot pay will consider the mandate to be a step forward. Maybe large employers will start putting pressure on all politicians to get the burden of nanny care off of their backs and move it to a tax related to income.

I also believe that Romney's tax plans were too obscure on what the middle class would loose in terms of deductions. Those voters had to vote on a hope for fair treatment. The hard core Republicans did just that, but obviously a lot of independents.

And, in the end, Romney didn't disclose enough of himself and that hurt. The missing years of tax returns hurt. Doesn't matter what the "minimum requirements" are - he was burned.

And the War on Women hurt. Not just Life -v- Choice, but all the weird things, like the vaginal probes and legitimate rape.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
They had the wrong guy. Obama didn't win as much as Romney lost.

No, you see, that's where you're wrong.

I would have agreed with you if every battleground state hadn't gone to Obama. I might even agree with you if Florida hadn't upheld Obamacare. I might agree with you if 4/4 states hadn't voted for equal rights. The only thing the GOP won tonight was retaining control of the house... and some of the Teapublicans got canned at that. If my own prediction of a 290 vote squeaker had been correct, I'd agree with you. If the GOP had taken the Senate or gained a significant number of seats in the house (it looks like they might have lost a few seats while retaining control). I might agree if the popular vote hadn't gone solidly to Obama (at this time, most of the red states are done reporting, but the Western blue states are just warming up and yet Obama is ahead).

See, the GOP's mistake was that they thought that Americans were stupid enough to fall for their sabotage trick. Boehner said it up front: they were going to sabotage the economy to make Obama lose. That was #1 priority. Not jobs, not economy, but beating Obama. And Americans saw through it.

Tonight was a strong message to the GOP that this isn't going to win them elections. They need to start putting America before the GOP. It was also a strong message to Obama that we like his views. We like his social views and we like his economic policies.

The GOP now has two choices: 1) Continue their current course and put party before country or 2) put America first and start negotiating.

If they choose option (1), they will find that they are rapidly becoming irrelevant and that they will be replaced by the Libertarian party or that another party will replace them. This is an increasingly diverse nation and they need to face it.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Not jobs, not economy, but beating Obama. And Americans saw through it.

The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
If they choose option (1), they will find that they are rapidly becoming irrelevant and that they will be replaced by the Libertarian party or that another party will replace them. This is an increasingly diverse nation and they need to face it.

That won't happen. They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party and 2) find someone brown for the next election. A vagina would help too, as long as it doesn't belong to Sarah Palin. They need to come out firing on economic issues, forget about social issues, and pander to minorities.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

I'm an optimist so I think that in four years the global economy will be booming ; if the GOP wants to win then, the economy won't be it.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.

Over three years of non-stop job growth is not ineffectual. And that's in spite of the GOP, not because of it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party

OMG we agree on something.   

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
2) find someone brown for the next election.

Nope. Not so simple. I guarantee you that the people who voted for Obama with race as a factor weren't going to vote for Herman Cain, either.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
A vagina would help too, as long as it doesn't belong to Sarah Palin.

The problem is bigger than Palin. There are a lot of GOP women saying outrageous things up to and including opposition to women's suffrage. And that is a very odd thing to hear from a woman politician, I have to say. Again, color and ovaries don't get you elected.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
They need to come out firing on economic issues, forget about social issues,

If they have a sensible economic plan --which they haven't so far-- and drop the "kick the gays/ban contraception/treat abortion lime murder" thing, they might actually be able to do well.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 14):
I'm an optimist so I think that in four years the global economy will be booming ;

If people keep supporting leftist economic policies, I don't think we'll have to worry about that.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1240 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.

THe GOP needs to start listening to those in the party who see victory in the middle. Built on a stronger middle class, intelligent government programs and moderation. The wild eyed hard right clearly lost today.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party

That won't happen for another few elections. Can the Tea Party be bitch slapped out of the halls of power before the 2014 election? Probably not, but it would be a major first step in bringing the GOP back to the White House.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
and 2) find someone brown for the next election.

They don't have to a person of color - any color. But the GOP needs to embrace non-whites as strongly as the Democrats. I believe that will take a few more election failures and a lot more old grey men with a $2 haircut to leave politics. Fortunately there is an increasing minority of non-whites building to an eventual majority. As we approach that point there will be some in the GOP who will see the need to adjust. Steve Schmit is already talking about that.

So the GOP will adjust, or it will shrink to nothing but a bunch of TPers.


User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

Quoting jakeorion (Reply 4):
Romney was a DOA as soon as the establishment picked him. Never wanted to vote for him, as I knew it was not going to do any good.

Exactly!! If the GOP had put up ANYBODY worthwhile Obama would have never won a second term. Myself included my vote was a vote against Obama more than it was a vote for Romney and I haven't voted since 1984. But its not racial. In fact I as a person like Obama over Romney. I just hate Obamas appointments. I despise Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano. Well he won so will be interesting to see how the next 4 years plays out.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Over three years of non-stop job growth is not ineffectual. And that's in spite of the GOP, not because of it.

And yet the economy is still struggling. And the government is planning to cut defense and increase taxes. It hasn't worked, just like it didn't work in the Great Depression.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I guarantee you that the people who voted for Obama with race as a factor weren't going to vote for Herman Cain, either.

I think you'd be surprised. Many Latinos are Catholic and many blacks are socially conservative and are only Democrats because they perceive the Republicans to be racist. The right doesn't need to be strong on social issues, just more conservative than the Democrats.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
They don't have to a person of color - any color.

Actually at this point it would probably work well enough.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):

I fail to see your argument when the statistics clearly show the economy is improving. Yes, maybe slowly, but its headed in the right direction.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 18):

Exactly!! If the GOP had put up ANYBODY worthwhile Obama would have never won a second term.

I don't think so. None of the other GOP early entrants would have done better, IMO , and several would have done a lot worse, especially Rick Perry.

Romney was a strong candidate for Repbulicans. He is a smart guy, well spoken. Who wouldn't want him to manage their investments? I think its the Republican platform that is failing.

With the economy in slow gear and the incumbent STILL wins, even though Romney clearly has a different economic agenda, it seems to me the Democrats in a normal economy have nothing to worry about....because even in an abnormal economy like this they're strong enough to win.

I bet a mere 1 percentage point improvement in unemployment would have made Obama unbeatable...the demographics are now squarely in favour of the Democrats, even in weak economies.


Pu


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1244 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 20):
Yes, maybe slowly, but its headed in the right direction.

The growth is barely keeping up with what's needed to keep unemployment from growing, if that. And growth based on stimulus goes away when the stimulus does. That's why the economy under Clinton was that good: it was actual growth, even if there was a bubble on top of it. You could wipe out unemployment by hiring people to make sculptures, but then the sculptures are made, the people have nothing to do anymore, and you have to find tax revenue to pay for the people you paid to make the sculptures.

And a tax hike has never helped growth in the economy. The economy might grow in spite of tax increases, but not because of them. Increasing taxes in a weak economy is just a bad idea.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):

Well Obama said he wants to go with Clinton era economics. I seem to recall that the rich did just fine with the Clinton era tax rates


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1246 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 23):
Well Obama said he wants to go with Clinton era economics.

Who wouldn't? Bring back the tech boom and you can bring back those tax rates. Until then, it's not a wise thing to do.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Post contains images MadameConcorde : The average voter knows little or nothing about policies or economics. They are way beyond their mind frame. What made Obama win is his immense popula
26 Aesma : Romney had plenty of media support. As for the show biz, why do they overwhelmingly support Obama ? There must be a reason, especially considering he
27 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Obama conveys a highly popular image, especially among women "I am the people's friend". Romney didn't. Romney was seen as the rich people's candidat
28 Post contains images DocLightning : Romney was seen as rich and out of touch. He was seen as downright weird. A lot of people simply don't trust his religion. He seemed to switch positi
29 Post contains images MD-90 : I voted for Ron Paul. Although I was tempted to write in Nick Saban's name instead...
30 Post contains images Revelation : To me, that was waaaay over-done. The GOP spent a lot of time and energy on it and they ended up looking like opportunists instead of leaders. A lot
31 Post contains links Revelation : Ok, how about some interesting input from journalists? The strategy that paved a winning path Obama's team discussed nailing Romney as a flip-flopper,
32 Venus6971 : This Benghazi thing has just started and Staten Island , Long Island, Jersey are a mess. Second terms are underwelming. Look for Marco Rubio or Christ
33 Revelation : What you seem to be saying is your generation did a piss poor job of raising kids.
34 danfearn77 : Obama is FAR more likeable and I'm very glad he has won. I'm not exaggerating when I say everyone I spoke to about it here in the UK wanted Obama to w
35 Revelation : Like most things, Romney wasn't saying what he'd do once he got in, but I had my concerns in this area, especially with all the former GWB people he
36 csavel : I think Obama won because of the following (a lot of which has already been mentioned) 1) Right wing tea party American Taliban turned off a whole bun
37 jamincan : For me, Romney seemed to be someone who would be more interested in how he could help himself and his friends. I found him completely and utterly slim
38 AeroWesty : 53% of Americans still blame the economy on Bush. This is an abnormal situation. I wouldn't count on it as the norm going forward that the Dems can c
39 bristolflyer : Romney definitely lost it - the guy was not appropriate to run the country. Remember what happened las time he went abroad? P!ssed off all 3 countries
40 Revelation : And the two corollaries: 3a) Romney never explained how a 1%er vulture capitalist like himself was going to be able to fix things either, and 3b) It
41 flymia : I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race. Job Growth? Sure we are gaining jobs but NOT enough for population growth. The job
42 casinterest : If Ohio had been the deciding factor, maybe that would be true, but Florida and Va are the real stories. The job market is shaping up. A lot of the u
43 D L X : Translation: Obama doing his job well might have won Obama this race. This is where Republicans are wrong. Most Americans want a smaller government..
44 Post contains images voodoo : True-ish but that may assume an obsolescent definition of the political spectrum. IMHO: Compared to most 21st-century Western countries political spe
45 AeroWesty : Pretty much the way I see it as well. Looking back to where we were in 2008 with the world swiftly collapsing economically, Obama is generally seen a
46 InsideMan : There's lots of room between a nanny state and leaving everyone alone in their mess, no matter what. There are some things Americans can only do toge
47 bjorn14 : Obama managed to convince his base that the economy wasn't his fault and they believed him. Despite virtually every major economic indicator being wo
48 Post contains links and images aloges : 'cause of Dubya's support: George Bush Accidently Votes For Obama The man really can't catch a break...
49 pvjin : It isn't his fault, these economic crisis are worldwide and one man can't magically make everything better when rest of the world is mostly going wor
50 flymia : Can't tell you know this is a fake news website or not.
51 Aloha717200 : I'd agree with this. A large part of the reason Obama won was because they still had most of the info of the 2008 voters, knew how to contact them, b
52 Post contains images Revelation : Or a wise plan that saves tax dollars in the long run may have won Obama this race! That's the down side of being "The Party of NO" - it's hard to co
53 Post contains images aloges : I thought it was obvious, but still included the smiley to make it even clearer.
54 AeroWesty : Just read an interesting statistic — the last time a Republican won a presidential election without a Bush or a Nixon on the ticket was 1928 when H
55 STT757 : The economy was a factor, however exit polling showed the majority of voters blamed former President Bush for the current state of the economy. The p
56 AviRaider : It's simple, the GOP didn't have the right candidate. Mitt was not polarizing enough, as a candidate and on the issues for people to get a sense of th
57 4holer : This. And that. Your entire post largely sums it up for this Independent as well. If a Party represents itself as #1 "Ours is the party of the evange
58 Polot : But what ideology? Don't assume that everyone who voted Republican has social conservative views. If the GOP goes too far down that path in attempt t
59 bueb0g : Because 500,000 jobs have been added... Job growth = the growth of jobs. Fine, take away Ohio and give it to Romney, Obama's still won. Nope. Everyon
60 Post contains images Revelation : Add to that saying that you're trying to fix (negligible amounts of) voter fraud by making it harder for people to vote.
61 BMI727 : That's ridiculous. If you ask for the ball, you'd better not drop the pass. In 2008 Obama stood up and said that he could fix things, and yet he hasn
62 Post contains images AeroWesty : Don't worry, you'll eventually get a job in aerospace engineering soon enough if you're as qualified as you claim (but your profile says 16 - 20 as y
63 BMI727 : Theoretically, but Obama's reelection won't help any. And when I do get a job, I'm sure the government will have no problems heavily taxing single gu
64 Post contains links Dreadnought : So you are saying that buying people's votes with taxpayer money is the President's job? How low have we fallen... According to exit polls, 54% want
65 Ken777 : Why is this a surprise? The Great Recession is a huge problem and will have a generational impact. Two wars on the credit card being wound down. A Ho
66 casinterest : When you get a job, your tax rate will be less than mine was when I started out. So quit the griping. He asked for it since congress did not do their
67 casinterest : My point was about the auto bailout mattering. Sure Ohio was the deciding factor. But if Ohio hadn't gone, Florida , Colorado, Virginia, and Iowa wer
68 BMI727 : Because four years ago there was a guy who stood up and convinced us he could make it better, and didn't but spent a lot of money trying. Then cut th
69 D L X : No, but I expect you will pervert whatever I say. Republicans were screaming bloody murder about jobs in America. But when the President actually wor
70 casinterest : If congress hadn't kicked the ball in 2011 , we wouldn't be in thi predicament. It was the right thing to do for Obama, and the rest of Congress that
71 Post contains images DocLightning : In other news: In other news: a photo of Seattle this morning after the state of Washington legalized marijuana:
72 Ken777 : Nope. It is reality. It is based on just how disastrous an economy Bush delivered. Actually he delivered a success with those tax dollars, and we are
73 Post contains links Dreadnought : I asked a simple question. A president (or government in general) can help create jobs by getting out of the way, and in a very few cases, by direct
74 BMI727 : If I wanted GM stock, I'd have bought GM stock. It's not the government's place to bail out private companies. ...what about the people who work for
75 D L X : Why not? You guys keep saying it as if this is a stone cold fact, but it really isn't anything more than an opinion. Clearly, that is not the only wa
76 BMI727 : Because they do it with our money. I'm fine with paying taxes to fund services the government provides for me. Keeping mediocre car companies afloat
77 flymia : Just wanted to make sure. I have seen some post on social media thinking that site is a real news.
78 FlyPNS1 : It is a bit of a perversion, but the GOP is just as guilty of it. Romney and George Allen (running for Senator in Virginia) both campaigned aggressiv
79 Revelation : I'm still wondering why you don't go to China to get that job. Very little pesky government to get into the way of a rising star like yourself, the r
80 Maverick623 : That's cool. There's about 60 million other people that either think the services provided were for them, or think that it's more that just "me, me,
81 bjorn14 : No one was crying when we didn't have early voting. There was a time when everybody voted on the SAME day. When I lived in the US there were two thin
82 DeltaMD90 : What's wrong with early voting? Seriously? It's very convenient. It allows more people to vote. Personally, if I didn't vote early, I probably wouldn
83 BMI727 : I'm more than willing to listen to offers. Just a matter of getting someone to write a check. Nobody has earned my loyalty. So what about GM and Chry
84 mt99 : Tell us what you do, who you work for and we will gladly look into it.
85 Maverick623 : Let's get one thing straight: IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY. IT'S EVERYBODY'S MONEY. You are not the sole provider of taxes to the US government (and I would b
86 tugger : And therein lies your problem, it is not the employers task to earn your loyalty prior to hiring you (*there are some exceptions to this for those pe
87 Mir : But it is the government's place to (as you suggested on another thread) support your chosen industry so that you can have a job? And there was a tim
88 BMI727 : Where were those people? If everyone thought that saving Chrysler and GM with their money was such a great idea, why did the government have to do it
89 Revelation : Right, and there was a time when kids rode horseback to school. What's your point? I used to get Election Day off from school as a kid. Now, forget a
90 tugger : I am betting that he is still living on the "public dime" in that he has not yet contributed more in taxes etc that he has benefited from in his life
91 Post contains images Maverick623 : Wow. You really have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Just explain to me how "the people" could have independently "lined up" to buy out a
92 BMI727 : That's the problem with liberals: they start with the premise that they (or the government) should get the right of first refusal and people should b
93 aloges : Not a problem, "mismaladjusted" was the final drop in my bucket.
94 AKiss20 : Plus one to this. I don't post much, but this really pisses me off. BMI, from what I can tell, we are in much the same place in our lives, Aerospace
95 tugger : You are missing the important points of what I said. It's not that your family has done OK and save d and provided for you and the family as a whole.
96 Post contains images Maverick623 : Wow. Try reading what I wrote again. BTW, fiscal conservative here. But cool attempt anyways. With your attitude, you won't have a career. In fact, i
97 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I always hate it when someone says "you want ______ elected, he said he's gonna cut the military's budget!" (and I'm in the military.) Well sadly, I
98 BMI727 : Trust me, I'm not waiting on anyone. But everyone in the industry has told me that my qualifications are fine and I should easily be hired, yet I'm n
99 flipdewaf : Why aren't you advocating people lining up to pay for the military if they want it so badly with whatever mechanism you think is applicable to the au
100 Post contains images EA CO AS : Next time use the instead. The implied that you were laughing as if the story were real. Yes, it's down considerably.
101 Polot : With the attitude you frequently display it is no surprise. It is not just about your academic performance, it is about your social skills. You have
102 BMI727 : Those are all services that are valuable and I'm willing to pay for. Things like bailing out car companies aren't. I don't think so at all. I know th
103 Flighty : It would be great news to drastically, epically slash government spending way down to Clinton era levels. I reckon business leaders would either die
104 D L X : Right? I'm from a military family myself, and spent many years personally as a DOD civilian. But I recognize that the real budget cuts are going to c
105 flipdewaf : But what if others aren't willing to pay for it? and others are willing to pay for other things? and they vote with their....Ballot papers? so you wo
106 Maverick623 : And this is why you'll never find a decent job. Learn a little humility. EDIT: Also, you're not unemployed because there's no jobs, you're unemployed
107 Polot : And companies want that. They want employees who are excited about their work and willing to go the extra mile to finish their project even if that m
108 BMI727 : Humility is overrated. I worked hard and I'm not going to apologize for it or lower myself to a position I'm overqualified for. I don't want to sweep
109 DocLightning : *Stands and applauds* And AKiss20 is a white man. No affirmative action for him at all. Yet somehow, he is a student at one of the most prestigious sc
110 Polot : If you are actually good at what you do and are making the company money YOUR funding won't get cut, someone else's will. And if you are truly good a
111 BMI727 : I don't think that's true. I'm hearing about there being well over a thousand applications for some positions. I'm sure I'm near the top of that, but
112 Post contains links aloges : What the hell?! Are you the "I've been on food stamps and welfare and nobody helped me out" guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U[Edited 20
113 Polot : And if you make that clear to a company you will never get a job. Companies want you to be enthusiastic about them, they don't want people who are on
114 Flighty : Here's one way I'll agree with that. Spending 2 years on a team that respects you & your valuable skills is worth spending 10 years on a team tha
115 Post contains images flipdewaf : I have a masters in aerospace engineering and I work in food manufacturing (and I have great fun), you don't have to silo youself, as an engineer you
116 BMI727 : Nope. I don't get food stamps or welfare. Obviously you wouldn't say that in the interview. I plan to, but I'd be stupid to pay for it myself. At bes
117 DocLightning : You may think that the sky is red, but it's blue. There is a shortage of American workers with scientific educations.
118 Maverick623 : You have GOT to be kidding me. No, really. Because I alone have posted about a dozen things you need to do differently, and you've shot down EVERY SI
119 BMI727 : I know that. There are the jobs I've applied, the jobs I'd be really good at, and the jobs I'd actually want. The second group is a subset of the fir
120 D L X : When I hear this, I hear "I worked hard, and now I'm entitled to the position of my choice." These are the most fun interviews for me to conduct beca
121 stratosphere : Ive never been on welfare or food stamps either. My brother and his girlfriend are though. And I see them abusing it too. Looking to sell their food
122 aloges : Unless he's actually told that he's "hopelessly overqualified" for something (I bet I'm not the only one who's heard that), you're a hundred percent
123 casinterest : If your qualifications are sufficient, and they are interviewing for a job, and you are still not getting one offered, then there is an issue with so
124 ltbewr : It is an interesting argument as to why Obama won. Some would say that Romney lost more than Obama won, but Romney did come within 2% of ousting an in
125 Post contains images BMI727 : I'm just saying what I heard. Job posting was up for a week and over a thousand applications. Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked
126 Post contains links Ken777 : The harsh reality is that government spending generates jobs in the private sector. Doesn't matter if it is a bridge or battleship. What I don't know
127 JakeOrion : Then you fail to understand the true situation. I personally know 7 out of 10 people with degrees that are either unemployed or underemployed. They a
128 Maverick623 : Because people that are older, wiser, and have more experience than you or your classmates are telling you to. But you're far too arrogant to accept
129 Mir : Okay, so you're willing to put some responsibility for your bad situation on the government. If you should manage to land a job in the defense field,
130 BMI727 : That's what seems to be the case. Making sandwiches or sweeping floors will do literally nothing to make me successful or get me closer to where I wa
131 Post contains images AeroWesty : Because it shows that you'll do what is necessary to get the job done — even if it's just working an interim job to gain experience and some money
132 D L X : Exactly. I'm curious who's bankrolling this unemployment of his. If I were his parents and was giving him money to "search" for a job, I'd cut off fu
133 Mir : Apart from giving you work experience. What has the defense industry done to earn extra defense spending? Because you hardly ever pass up a chance to
134 Post contains images zippyjet : My spin in no particular order: 1. President Obama is a likable guy and the first African American POTUS and is young (as President's go) 2. Incumben
135 BMI727 : Sweeping floors does nothing to prove anything except that I could sweep floors. Experience doing something menial is a waste of time. I've heard thi
136 Maverick623 : And I've been telling you it will help for about 3 hours now, and you are STILL IGNORING IT. No, it's not "all online" now. Make phone calls, show up
137 AeroWesty : It shows that you're willing to do what needs getting done, even if what needs getting done is simply earning a paycheck. Maverick623 and others have
138 Flighty : Cynically speaking, sometimes a hiring manager wants an obedient little slave. (edit: speaking to BMI) You may not fit the bill. But at least act lik
139 BMI727 : I have the motivation to work for the job I want and not stop short of that or allow myself to be detoured. I'll happily admit that there are a hell
140 Mir : In other words, prove that you're not too proud to do things that you don't find particularly rewarding but that need to be done. If you think that's
141 BMI727 : Sweeping floors if you're a pilot is going an extra mile. Sweeping floors if you're a janitor is just doing menial, unskilled work. I have no problem
142 AeroWesty : This. This is why you don't have a job. This attitude probably comes across in interviews. What you asked me to explain in your previous post you sho
143 NWAdeicer : BMI727, Seriously, you/re parents are bankrolling you while you sit at home waiting for your dream job call? If you were my kid your ass would be comi
144 AeroWesty : — Back on topic — Bill O'Reilly on why Romney lost: 1) Because Romney didn't challenge Obama on Libya in the third debate. If he had, the media wo
145 BMI727 : Nobody's bankrolling me. I have savings, although I live with my parents. No, there's nothing positive about that. It's just killing time to maybe ge
146 Post contains images YVRLTN : Um, to earn some money? And not leech off the government / parents / savings which is what you are bemoaning the government would do to you if and wh
147 BMI727 : Of course if they ask I'd have to tell them that I'm out the door as soon as I get a better offer. I know better than to lie. I have no problem being
148 cws818 : To be consistent. As you have ranted repeatedly about Social Security - if people are imprudent with their investments, then they should work at what
149 BMI727 : I'm not close to retirement at all. Sure I'll have to save a little more later to make up for what I don't save now, but so be it. If I were sixty, I
150 cws818 : First of all, you can blame President Bush for that. He is a Republican. Second of all, at least they had jobs and they actually worked.
151 cws818 : Do you not understand that the principle is the same? You should follow your own "logic". Put up or shut up. Stop whining, stop blaming the governmen
152 pellegrine : Wow. I was going to post something...but you guys just beat the s*** out of BMI727. I understand where both teams are coming from. Wow.
153 pellegrine : I actually have to respect BMI727 when he says that he wouldn't take a job beneath him. We probably haven't agreed much before, but I respect that pos
154 InsideMan : by the way, the Tea Party is already bound to take over the GOP entirely. Their argument is as follows: We nominated 2 moderates (McCain and Romney) a
155 flipdewaf : Yes, it will. You show it to interviewers without even knowing it. No it isn't You misunderstand completely. When you meet the cleaners on the shopfl
156 Revelation : That's the exact point, one you keep ignoring. The banking system was not functioning. Today it is, and AA is in bankruptcy, and no government bailou
157 casinterest : Thousand applicants per job? And you have a degree in Areospace engineering? Did you intern or co-op during your time at school? If not you already l
158 mt99 : Cousin Eddie? (extra point to whomever gets the reference!!) " In Seven Years he has found no work - he says that he is holding out for a Management
159 casinterest : "Clark: So, when did you get the tenament on wheels? Eddie: Oh, that uh, that there's an RV. Yeah, yeah, I borrowed it off a buddy of mine. He took m
160 STT757 : That O'Reilly didn't list demographics is the reason why I no longer watch his show, he knows nothing about politics. Romney lost because: Obama had
161 D L X : Kid, you haven't put your dues in. I don't care where you went to school or what degree you have, when you start work in a first career out of school
162 Revelation : And also realize there is no such thing as the "dream job" - no matter who you are, you are still doing things other people want you to do, not what
163 mad99 : And three that are truly qualified and meet the requirements. Post any vacancy and you'll get 1,000 trying. After all, its just a email so no effort.
164 casinterest : For an Engineering postion, there are quite a few apps, and qualifiers. But web and email filters will whiddle those down proir to getting to an HR o
165 NBGSkyGod : BMI727...perhaps some perspective is in order for you. You have made some valid conservative arguments for why Obama's ideas were faulty. However, whe
166 BMI727 : I'd actually blame the leaders at Enron who ran the company into the ground but that's not the point. The point is that plenty of companies, even big
167 D L X : You've had multiple people on this thread tell you that you are wrong on this very point. You know the job that I learned the most at? My paper route
168 Revelation : And my point is that it only happens under exceptional circumstances, but keep making a big deal out of it if you must. Right, what a tragedy, first
169 flipdewaf : Really? You just did! When have you proved as much? You have made a lot of ME ME ME noises on here. because thats going well so far, it has lead to I
170 sovietjet : BMI727 - I am 25 years old and an aerospace engineer myself, with a master's degree. When I was in school, I double majored (mechanical and aerospace
171 BMI727 : Because I haven't kissed the right rings? Dealing with people is a pain in the ass. I can do it, it's just that a lot of the people I have to deal wi
172 flipdewaf : This is why you aren't getting jobs. You aren't listening, you are just hearing! Fred
173 D L X : You keep saying that, but you're wasting time being unemployed. Good luck, kid. You're gonna have to deal with people at your dream job, and when the
174 Flighty : That is true, but here's a slight push back. People 30 years old are lead surgeons. :ead litigators. Actuaries, CA captains. Professors. As odd as it
175 BMI727 : I'd rather be unemployed a little longer and find a decent job than take time away to waste time on a job that doesn't really offer me anything as fa
176 casinterest : You will find that the longer you live in your parents house without a job , the farther your dream job will slip away. There are going to be other n
177 AeroWesty : My very first job at 18 (other than my paper route at 13) was during college doing part-time menial tasks at a large law firm. My main responsibility
178 Revelation : Because it shows you can hold a job, work with people and deal with different situations. Believe it or not, that's a big part of what matters. LOL,
179 BMI727 : ...which is why I'd probably be better off going back to get more education than doing a crappy job, unless anyone needs engineers with tomato slicin
180 aloges : So tell us, BMI727, why you should be given a "decent job". Because you're willing to work hard and do, when necessary, things that you don't like? B
181 BMI727 : You think anyone gets through school or life without working with people and dealing with different situations? Or does it only count if you're flipp
182 DocLightning : Your problem summed up in 4 words. And don't tell me you aren't blaming it on the government because this entire conversation in which you got verbal
183 AeroWesty : So don't limit yourself to sweeping floors or flipping burgers. Head down to a temp agency and let them evaluate what skills you currently hold, and
184 aloges : Nonsense. It shows a potential employer that you don't shy away from menial tasks, which exist in pretty much every job, but fulfill them with care a
185 captaink : You are going to continue having job problems. The problems isn´t the government or anyone else. The problems seems to be you. You have a serious at
186 BMI727 : You left out the rest of that sentence, but whatever. I'll use a baseball analogy: conventional wisdom is that the sacrifice bunt is a good idea. Giv
187 Post contains links DocLightning : Here's another GOP official saying that the GOP has gotten too extreme. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...7/steve-schmidt-gop_n_2086051.html But
188 Post contains images AeroWesty : Yey! A positive response. We're getting somewhere. Take a look at monster.com to see what kinds of jobs the temp agencies in your area handle. Some a
189 tugger : And I'll use the baseball analogy then as well. No player gets to take a swing until the coach knows you can play, and no coach lets a player on his
190 BoeEngr : You may or may not care, but here's how I got my engineering career started. I graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering. I came out of colleg
191 zckls04 : Except interpersonal skills, which along with a poor resume is likely to be the reason you aren't getting hired at the moment. You can learn those in
192 FlyPNS1 : Then you may find yourself unemployed for quite a long time. I'll also warn you that people who are out of the labor market for too long start to get
193 mt99 : I sure hope you pay out of pocket and do not take any government backed loans.
194 BMI727 : There's no reason to do that, just call their bluff. The Tea people won't vote for Democrats and their own candidates aren't going to beat any Democr
195 AeroWesty : What rate of pay would suck? You're going to have to come to terms with that a temp agency may put you out in jobs that you're overqualified for init
196 DeltaMD90 : BMI, you are just younger than I am, and I am only a little ahead in my life, and I used to think the same as you. But you do learn a lot of things wh
197 ER757 : To me, this is a mirror image of 2004 - sitting president that didn't earn a 2nd term up against a weak challenger (from the same state ironically). I
198 zckls04 : Either: 1) All hiring managers pick candiates alphabetically and your name is Zeke Zzypt, 2) Your resume never gets read or 3) Your resume is poor I
199 BMI727 : Anything less than what I could be making as an engineer. Not just higher up in the food chain, it has to be in the right food chain. Even the best j
200 casinterest : I'd say your current job is paying 0, so you should really be willing to accept anything up to and including the engineer pay level. You have this al
201 DeltaMD90 : Some skills are universal. You can use the skills of management you learn at McDonalds as a shift manager at your new job wherever. Why do you think
202 BMI727 : I'd rather not do specifically what I set out to not have to do. Who the hell would hire me if they know I'm out the door like a shot the moment I ge
203 tugger : That is often the way most people end up in their career. Working elsewhere or out in the life mixing with other people, those people get to know you
204 AeroWesty : Well, see what the recruiter says. If they can place you as an engineer right away, great. If they can't, I'd still take where ever they can place yo
205 casinterest : Maybe a sanitation engineer. I earned more than that as a co-op .
206 Post contains images BMI727 : I wish someone had said that when I was going on 11 hours in the computer lab. That's definitely part of it. Average sucks. Maybe circa 1990. It shou
207 zckls04 : I guess that's true. Would be interesting to see though. No, they're supposed to be self-promoting. There is a difference. Arrogance is an undesirabl
208 tugger : We're talking starting pay. And there are quite a few "engineer" positions that start in the $30's. The gods among engineering fresh-out-of-schools-e
209 D L X : BMI, you've mistaken training for the marathon with winning the marathon.
210 NBGSkyGod : BMI, You have had about as much good advise here as you will ever get in life. Here is a list of things that you NEED to do if you want to get hired s
211 Post contains images Mir : I've been in it too, and I sat out for a while myself. But you didn't hear me blaming the government for my circumstances. And the government has aff
212 DeltaMD90 : I worked harder than anyone I knew at college... did my degree in 2.5 years while most my friends did it in 4-5 years. Not trying to brag by any mean
213 tugger : Been there, done that. And no, it still is not work. As I mentioned above, it all depends. "Twice that" means $60k and the national average median sa
214 casinterest : Wow, I picked the right major and industry, but then again I did co-op/internships. When I was hired in was in the 50's and that was when Clinton was
215 BMI727 : Where's the line? I'm not about to go into an interview and pretend that I'm not worthy, because I am and I know it. I'm starting to realize that car
216 tugger : Are you a chemical engineer? Tugg
217 Post contains links D L X : Hah. You think you get to pick which marathon you run, having not put in your dues at all, just because you've TRAINED. You don't get to start at Bos
218 casinterest : Software, mind you we were geering up for the 2000 rollover issue that wasn't.....
219 Post contains links PHLBOS : Rush Limbaugh had another take on the matter today... one in which I witnessed a microcosm of on the local level: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2
220 AeroWesty : Career counselors are like PE teachers. So you've got to interview them just as you would be interviewed by a prospective employer. You want to 'hire
221 Post contains links tugger : Definitely excellent. Even today the average salary there is $93K (average, not average starting). http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=software+engineer&
222 casinterest : I'd say this is still pretty close to normal based on what I know. I have transitioned out of design, something I really wanted to do coming out of c
223 D L X : I fixed that for you. Yes, everyone can point to the handful of minorities in the GOP, who are often put conspicuously in view so that you would see
224 Post contains images lewis : I was always encouraged to put my summer jobs as well as those "lowly" jobs I have had in my resume. Come to think of it, my last interview for the b
225 DocLightning : I'll dismiss it for another reason: At the outset of this campaign, Pat Robertson of all people went on the air and said that the GOP candidates were
226 Post contains images Revelation : I guess I'm not getting it. Who is the conservative this person wants the GOP to nominate? Did Rush perhaps consider making it easier to vote? Someho
227 Mir : As I said, 75% of any job is going to be the same: dealing with the fact that it's a job. No matter what you're doing, that experience is valuable, a
228 BMI727 : There is shame in not having the job I'm qualified for and should have. There's no honor in settling for less. I spent four years of school arriving
229 DeltaMD90 : What is that job? Many are underemployed in this economy. You may have to use a stepping stone job. I'm not talking about Burger King anymore, I'm ta
230 BMI727 : I should be making good money as an engineer at a reputable company, rather than wasting my time either doing nothing or finding some lower tier job
231 casinterest : Nothing, but a lot of people do that in college. Even the people that got D's.
232 DeltaMD90 : Do you have the credentials to do this? I truly do not know, but I know a lot of aerospace engineer majors... anecdotal, but they don't seem that unc
233 Post contains images YVRLTN : We can tell, the only solution may be to go work on Mars. Other than earn money. I fail to see why you would not want to do that while pursuing your
234 BMI727 : Even those people are more capable than the people working at Burger King. On paper I'm one of those people, yet it seems to do nothing. It all has t
235 AeroWesty : The working world is so far removed from what you find in academia, it isn't even funny. I'm not sure where you're getting all of these pre-conceived
236 BMI727 : I'm not going to sit there, act like I don't deserve to be there, and pretend that I'm not worthy. I'll put my head down and work, but I'm not going
237 AeroWesty : I can guarantee you that most people feel under-employed, which is why they strive to advance themselves. There's an old saying, something is only wo
238 DocLightning : Spoken like a Republican. Seriously, that's what lost your party the election in the final redux. America decided not to hire people with that attitu
239 BMI727 : Of course I should probably just turn that deal down and go back to school and raise my value.
240 Post contains links tugger : Actually I think it is because they have their "conservative" mixed up. They need to go back to focusing on fiscal conservatism and leave the rest ou
241 BMI727 : Fine, I'll go check with a temp agency. But I know the pay is going to suck so the job better offer me something in the way of skills or connections
242 DocLightning : Better pay for it yourself without help. Remember, "you built it." I bring this up because at my graduation ceremony (I graduated twice, heard the sp
243 NZ1 : As this thread has drifted well off topic, it will now be locked. NZ1 Forum Moderator
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