pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 502 times:
It seems to me the ECONOMY was not the decisive issue as commonly believed: all the polls I saw said Romney was trusted more on economics.
Two things stick out to me about what Republicans may have did wrong:
(1) TACTICALLY, not facing reality and instead arguing the polls were flawed when they could have made a game-changing campaign adjustment, and,
(2) STRATEGICALLY, arguing for the importance of the Benghazi attack, repudiating Obamacare and increasing defense spending and other ideas which aren't big vote-getting ideas for swing moderate voters, but appeal to Republicans
Thoughts?
I really hope America gets its fiscal house in order and do wish the great American people a successful future!
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4936 posts, RR: 15 Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 508 times:
Quoting pu (Thread starter): (1) TACTICALLY, not facing reality and instead arguing the polls were flawed when they could have made a game-changing campaign adjustment, and,
Tactically- Focusing on pushing Obama in a wall where Obama has failed, such as in Nevada and Ohio, where populations are still out of work in large numbers,
Quoting pu (Thread starter): (2) STRATEGICALLY, arguing for the importance of the Benghazi attack, repudiating Obamacare and increasing defense spending and other ideas which aren't big vote-getting ideas for swing moderate voters, but appeal to Republicans
EXACTLY. In all seriousness, Romney was NOT persuasive enough.
mhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 372 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 505 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1): EXACTLY. In all seriousness, Romney was NOT persuasive enough.
It may have helped if he had actually had a platform both the candidate and the running mate could support. Romney/Ryan were both supporting a RNC platform that neither one of them personally believed them, and would say anything to any audience to get elected.
If this election proved anything, it's that deceit can't get you elected to the highest office of the land. Obama may not have had the greatest first term, but at least he had something people could sympathize with and a record to prove it. Romney had a record but he didn't endorse it as his own!
Case in point: Romneycare.
I'm personally impressed so many thought this would be a close election. It really shouldn't have been. Why support a guy who can't remember what's on his website?
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 510 times:
Quoting pu (Thread starter): Two things stick out to me about what Republicans may have did wrong:
They had the wrong guy. Obama didn't win as much as Romney lost.
The real issue is where do they go from here. I think they have two years to find their man, and launch a long campaign. I'd pick Huntsman as my early favorite, if he's up to it, but they need a candidate and fast. Everybody knew from about 2004 on that Obama was going to be the guy in 2008, with even Hillary being only a brief, fringe contender. And the guy has to be strong economically, and moderate on everything else. The economy is where the Republicans had a chance to win this time and where they'll have a chance to win next time.
As they look for their man and after they find him, they need to launch an all out war. The Republicans need to grow the teeth that up until now only the Tea Party has had and blast the economic failures of the Democrats and general idiocy of the Tea Party. It's at four years and counting, so there's plenty there. They need to compile a resume of economic failure.
And, above all, stop listening to the Tea Partiers. They aren't going anywhere, so there's no reason to pander to them or be scared of them. Republicans need to drop social issues entirely and focus on their strength, which is the economy.
The economic troubles left the Republicans a hanging curveball just begging to get whacked. But they swung and missed and are now faced with four years of damage control, during which time they should spend as much time as possible on the offensive.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
jakeorion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1247 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 504 times:
Romney did not give clear cut answers nor details on his policies; too focused on bashing the President while refusing to acknowledge this has been a disaster in the making over several Presidencies; too focused on social issues; picked by stupid establishment Republicans after their own greed and power rather than addressing the wounds America.
Romney was a DOA as soon as the establishment picked him. Never wanted to vote for him, as I knew it was not going to do any good.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6282 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 504 times:
Why Obama won. You want the real reason?
Hispanic Vote, Gender Gap.
That is all, that is the reason. This country is changing demographically if the Miitt who ran for govenours could get through the GOP primary he would have won this election. The hard right of the GOP is what needs to change.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 6, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 504 times:
I'd add a highly sophisticated "get out the vote" program in the most strategic areas. If anything, the Obama campaign knew where their voters were, and got them to the polls.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12701 posts, RR: 80 Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 505 times:
The news is saying that women, younger women, younger single ones especially, really turned out to vote.
If so, will the GOP let up on this obsession with not just female reproductive rights, but from some of them, even contraception?
Easy to say, harder to convince enough of their base?
Seems odd when the economy is seen to be THE issue of course but could this biggest of all the 'culture wars' just been enough?
Then there has been the attitude towards the growing Hispanic population from some of the GOP, quite apart from the demographics involved, there is a pretty solid law in democracies everywhere, if a party gives the impression it does not like or approve of parts of a population, they won't win.
Because all those minorities can add up.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4936 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 507 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6): I'd add a highly sophisticated "get out the vote" program in the most strategic areas. If anything, the Obama campaign knew where their voters were, and got them to the polls.
MANY Ron Paul supporters did NOT vote for Romney. or O.
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11948 posts, RR: 37 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 507 times:
I think it was an issue of personality at the end of the day; Romney was simply not likeable; Huckabee got it right when he said that Romney looks like the guy who fires you. Obama was by far the more personable, empathatic and likeable of the two.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 504 times:
If you look at Ohio (and other industrial states) I think the reason is Obama's support for the auto industry and Romney's lack of support. Obama took a lot of heat at the time, but it was the right decision.
As much as opponents trashed ObamaCare the reality is they everyone who has a member of their family with a "pre-existing condition" knows it was a critical reform. Also, anyone who understands that a big chunk of their health insurance premium is to cover those who cannot pay will consider the mandate to be a step forward. Maybe large employers will start putting pressure on all politicians to get the burden of nanny care off of their backs and move it to a tax related to income.
I also believe that Romney's tax plans were too obscure on what the middle class would loose in terms of deductions. Those voters had to vote on a hope for fair treatment. The hard core Republicans did just that, but obviously a lot of independents.
And, in the end, Romney didn't disclose enough of himself and that hurt. The missing years of tax returns hurt. Doesn't matter what the "minimum requirements" are - he was burned.
And the War on Women hurt. Not just Life -v- Choice, but all the weird things, like the vaginal probes and legitimate rape.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 504 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3): They had the wrong guy. Obama didn't win as much as Romney lost.
No, you see, that's where you're wrong.
I would have agreed with you if every battleground state hadn't gone to Obama. I might even agree with you if Florida hadn't upheld Obamacare. I might agree with you if 4/4 states hadn't voted for equal rights. The only thing the GOP won tonight was retaining control of the house... and some of the Teapublicans got canned at that. If my own prediction of a 290 vote squeaker had been correct, I'd agree with you. If the GOP had taken the Senate or gained a significant number of seats in the house (it looks like they might have lost a few seats while retaining control). I might agree if the popular vote hadn't gone solidly to Obama (at this time, most of the red states are done reporting, but the Western blue states are just warming up and yet Obama is ahead).
See, the GOP's mistake was that they thought that Americans were stupid enough to fall for their sabotage trick. Boehner said it up front: they were going to sabotage the economy to make Obama lose. That was #1 priority. Not jobs, not economy, but beating Obama. And Americans saw through it.
Tonight was a strong message to the GOP that this isn't going to win them elections. They need to start putting America before the GOP. It was also a strong message to Obama that we like his views. We like his social views and we like his economic policies.
The GOP now has two choices: 1) Continue their current course and put party before country or 2) put America first and start negotiating.
If they choose option (1), they will find that they are rapidly becoming irrelevant and that they will be replaced by the Libertarian party or that another party will replace them. This is an increasingly diverse nation and they need to face it.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 516 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): Not jobs, not economy, but beating Obama. And Americans saw through it.
The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): If they choose option (1), they will find that they are rapidly becoming irrelevant and that they will be replaced by the Libertarian party or that another party will replace them. This is an increasingly diverse nation and they need to face it.
That won't happen. They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party and 2) find someone brown for the next election. A vagina would help too, as long as it doesn't belong to Sarah Palin. They need to come out firing on economic issues, forget about social issues, and pander to minorities.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 507 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.
Over three years of non-stop job growth is not ineffectual. And that's in spite of the GOP, not because of it.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party
OMG we agree on something.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): 2) find someone brown for the next election.
Nope. Not so simple. I guarantee you that the people who voted for Obama with race as a factor weren't going to vote for Herman Cain, either.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): A vagina would help too, as long as it doesn't belong to Sarah Palin.
The problem is bigger than Palin. There are a lot of GOP women saying outrageous things up to and including opposition to women's suffrage. And that is a very odd thing to hear from a woman politician, I have to say. Again, color and ovaries don't get you elected.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): They need to come out firing on economic issues, forget about social issues,
If they have a sensible economic plan --which they haven't so far-- and drop the "kick the gays/ban contraception/treat abortion lime murder" thing, they might actually be able to do well.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 508 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): The joke is probably on Americans, if the plan is four more years of expensive yet largely ineffectual economic measures.
THe GOP needs to start listening to those in the party who see victory in the middle. Built on a stronger middle class, intelligent government programs and moderation. The wild eyed hard right clearly lost today.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): They just need to 1) stop being scared of the Tea Party
That won't happen for another few elections. Can the Tea Party be bitch slapped out of the halls of power before the 2014 election? Probably not, but it would be a major first step in bringing the GOP back to the White House.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): and 2) find someone brown for the next election.
They don't have to a person of color - any color. But the GOP needs to embrace non-whites as strongly as the Democrats. I believe that will take a few more election failures and a lot more old grey men with a $2 haircut to leave politics. Fortunately there is an increasing minority of non-whites building to an eventual majority. As we approach that point there will be some in the GOP who will see the need to adjust. Steve Schmit is already talking about that.
So the GOP will adjust, or it will shrink to nothing but a bunch of TPers.
stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 507 times:
Quoting jakeorion (Reply 4): Romney was a DOA as soon as the establishment picked him. Never wanted to vote for him, as I knew it was not going to do any good.
Exactly!! If the GOP had put up ANYBODY worthwhile Obama would have never won a second term. Myself included my vote was a vote against Obama more than it was a vote for Romney and I haven't voted since 1984. But its not racial. In fact I as a person like Obama over Romney. I just hate Obamas appointments. I despise Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano. Well he won so will be interesting to see how the next 4 years plays out.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 511 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): Over three years of non-stop job growth is not ineffectual. And that's in spite of the GOP, not because of it.
And yet the economy is still struggling. And the government is planning to cut defense and increase taxes. It hasn't worked, just like it didn't work in the Great Depression.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): I guarantee you that the people who voted for Obama with race as a factor weren't going to vote for Herman Cain, either.
I think you'd be surprised. Many Latinos are Catholic and many blacks are socially conservative and are only Democrats because they perceive the Republicans to be racist. The right doesn't need to be strong on social issues, just more conservative than the Democrats.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): They don't have to a person of color - any color.
Actually at this point it would probably work well enough.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1123 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 506 times:
pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 506 times:
Quoting stratosphere (Reply 18):
Exactly!! If the GOP had put up ANYBODY worthwhile Obama would have never won a second term.
I don't think so. None of the other GOP early entrants would have done better, IMO , and several would have done a lot worse, especially Rick Perry.
Romney was a strong candidate for Repbulicans. He is a smart guy, well spoken. Who wouldn't want him to manage their investments? I think its the Republican platform that is failing.
With the economy in slow gear and the incumbent STILL wins, even though Romney clearly has a different economic agenda, it seems to me the Democrats in a normal economy have nothing to worry about....because even in an abnormal economy like this they're strong enough to win.
I bet a mere 1 percentage point improvement in unemployment would have made Obama unbeatable...the demographics are now squarely in favour of the Democrats, even in weak economies.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 512 times:
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 20): Yes, maybe slowly, but its headed in the right direction.
The growth is barely keeping up with what's needed to keep unemployment from growing, if that. And growth based on stimulus goes away when the stimulus does. That's why the economy under Clinton was that good: it was actual growth, even if there was a bubble on top of it. You could wipe out unemployment by hiring people to make sculptures, but then the sculptures are made, the people have nothing to do anymore, and you have to find tax revenue to pay for the people you paid to make the sculptures.
And a tax hike has never helped growth in the economy. The economy might grow in spite of tax increases, but not because of them. Increasing taxes in a weak economy is just a bad idea.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1123 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 507 times:
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10241 posts, RR: 40 Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 710 times:
The average voter knows little or nothing about policies or economics. They are way beyond their mind frame.
What made Obama win is his immense popularity. The huge support he gets from the media, TV ads, newspapers, his Hollywood, show biz and celeb friends who supported him with huge financial donations to his campaign and asked their fans to vote for him and with whom the average voters like to identify with. Also popular measures such as "Obamaphones".
For the average voter Obama projects the image of a hero, a role model, they love him, they love his fashionista wife Michelle, his daughters, the dog, the public images he conveys. They all see him a really nice guy. They did not want to lose that so they voted for him again.
Other than that the average voters don't have any idea of Obama's politics and whatever policies he intends to apply during his second term domestically, even less outside of the US.
[Edited 2012-11-07 00:26:54]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4763 posts, RR: 9 Reply 26, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 704 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25): What made Obama win is the huge media support he gets, TV ads, newspapers, his Hollywood, show biz and celeb friends who supported him financially
Romney had plenty of media support. As for the show biz, why do they overwhelmingly support Obama ? There must be a reason, especially considering he intends to tax them more.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10241 posts, RR: 40 Reply 27, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 26): Romney had plenty of media support.
Obama conveys a highly popular image, especially among women "I am the people's friend".
Romney didn't.
Romney was seen as the rich people's candidate who would have cut down on the "nanny state" therefore unpopular with the masses. A majority of people really like the idea of a "nanny state".
Also most people voted Obama simply because they knew what to expect from him, good or bad. They had no idea what Romney in the White House would be about so they did not want to run the risk and they voted Obama in for a second term.
[Edited 2012-11-07 00:52:47]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 28, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 725 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27): Romney was seen as the rich people's candidate who would have cut down on the "nanny state" therefore unpopular with the masses. A majority of people really like the idea of a "nanny state".
Romney was seen as rich and out of touch. He was seen as downright weird. A lot of people simply don't trust his religion. He seemed to switch positions from day to day to suit the current climate. A man is entitled to disagree with himself, but to claim that this is what he thought all along when clearly he didn't is another thing entirely.
The tax returns can't have helped because they demonstrated with a Romney White House would have been like. Opaque as...well... a black binder full of women. And then there was his way with words... or lack thereof.
And finally, there was his lack of ideas. He sat up there and blithely claimed that there was nothing wrong with the healthcare system. That the ambulance was socialized medicine. That nobody died because of lack of insurance. That's so silly it's literally insulting. You don't earn votes that way.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 30, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 711 times:
Quoting pu (Thread starter): arguing for the importance of the Benghazi attack
To me, that was waaaay over-done. The GOP spent a lot of time and energy on it and they ended up looking like opportunists instead of leaders.
A lot of people who argued against polls and their methodologies must feel silly today.
It really is about the candidate. Romney won the primary because he spend a lot of his own money and because he was able to appeal to others who had a lot of money. All of this didn't cover up the fact that he had little appeal as a candidate.
Romney's main selling point was that he was a successful businessman, but it's hard to see how one's skills as a vulture capitalist translate well into becoming President. We didn't know anything about Bain Capital before the race, it all came out in dribs and drabs based on things the Dems published, and Romney's side was always on the defensive about it.
Social conservatives can't be happy about an openly gay senator and two states legalizing recreational use of marijuana.
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 2): Romney/Ryan were both supporting a RNC platform that neither one of them personally believed them, and would say anything to any audience to get elected.
It didn't help Romney to not fully endorse Ryan's plan right after he picked Ryan as a running mate.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3): The Republicans need to grow the teeth that up until now only the Tea Party has had and blast the economic failures of the Democrats and general idiocy of the Tea Party.
I think the country is sick of their belligerence. They need to represent their view constructively, and use their control of the House to reach compromise with the Senate.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 10): Romney was simply not likeable;
As above, it is about the candidate.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11): As much as opponents trashed ObamaCare the reality is they everyone who has a member of their family with a "pre-existing condition" knows it was a critical reform.
One even Romney was trying to find a way to embrace.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11): And the War on Women hurt. Not just Life -v- Choice, but all the weird things, like the vaginal probes and legitimate rape.
Indeed. I think the GOP has a huge problem there. Their "every sperm is sacred" position is just so hard to defend, and when they do, they paint themselves into the "legitimate rape" corner, which then attracts the truly ignorant who feel that "women have a way to shut that thing down".
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): the GOP's mistake was that they thought that Americans were stupid enough to fall for their sabotage trick.
I agree - that tactic was a big part of why much of the country did not want to see the GOP in the White House.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): We like his social views and we like his economic policies.
Personally, I didn't like the stimulus, and I hope fiscal issues get a lot more attention.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): The wild eyed hard right clearly lost today.
Perhaps, but that's the source of a lot of the enthusiasm in the GOP.
If it becomes all about the Rockefeller Republicans, how are they going to keep the base happy?
The wild-eyed stuff is what keeps ratings high for Rush and for FOX, and keeps the base engaged.
They want to cling to their guns and their religion, not read stock market reports.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 31, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 682 times:
Ok, how about some interesting input from journalists?
Obama's team discussed nailing Romney as a flip-flopper, but the data pointed to a stronger hand:
Quote:
“The most striking data we saw early on was on the ‘understands problems of people like me’ question,” said a senior White House official involved in the discussions. “Into the summer, Romney was in the teens in this category.”
The choice was made. The onetime campaign of hope and change soon began a sustained advertising assault that cast Romney as a heartless executive, a man who willingly fires people and is disconnected from how average Americans live their lives — an approach reinforced by Romney’s mistakes along the way.
Even Romney's side admits:
Quote:
Another Romney adviser said: “The group think today is if we were to go back and change one thing, we’d spend more money and more strongly defend Mitt and push back on the ‘rich guy,’ the tax rate issue, the Bain Capital issue. We knew it was coming and we should’ve done more positive ads to get his favorables up.”
But was it about more ads? I kinda doubt it. Romney himself seemed to just not want to stand up to his past, he seemed to prefer to hide it.
Romney himself put his business background into the foreground, and when it was time to speak to it, he just couldn't make the case that leading Bain Capital would make him a good President.
Venus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 32, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 688 times:
This Benghazi thing has just started and Staten Island , Long Island, Jersey are a mess. Second terms are underwelming. Look for Marco Rubio or Christie dipping their toes in the water in 2016. I would like John Huntsman if he can win a primary and have the hard core conservatives relize that they cant win with a hard liner. The country is changing from a hard working middle class type guys to winey Starbuck sipping guys mad because they can't get a job with their art degree. Mitts 47% will be at over 50% when 2016 comes around. I will be 54 in 2016 and I think the hard working guy does not stand a chance. What next for the poor welfare class in the urban areas, how will they bribed to vote, I know free t shirts and hats for everyone just like Hugo Chavez does. I wonder if small business owners and corporations will still sit on their money, its good that we have split congress now.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 33, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 680 times:
Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 32): The country is changing from a hard working middle class type guys to winey Starbuck sipping guys mad because they can't get a job with their art degree. Mitts 47% will be at over 50% when 2016 comes around. I will be 54 in 2016 and I think the hard working guy does not stand a chance.
What you seem to be saying is your generation did a piss poor job of raising kids.
danfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1780 posts, RR: 10 Reply 34, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 684 times:
Obama is FAR more likeable and I'm very glad he has won. I'm not exaggerating when I say everyone I spoke to about it here in the UK wanted Obama to win. Friends, family, girlfriend, my girlfriends family, my work colleagues, everyone. I didn't come across a single person who wanted Romney as president. Obama is more charismatic, more outgoing and more assertive it seems. I think he'll command more respect abroad than Romney. I also got the impression Romney would have been a little 'trigger happy' with the Middle East had he gotten in?
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 35, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 678 times:
Quoting danfearn77 (Reply 34): I also got the impression Romney would have been a little 'trigger happy' with the Middle East had he gotten in?
Like most things, Romney wasn't saying what he'd do once he got in, but I had my concerns in this area, especially with all the former GWB people he had advising him.
Obama got a lot of applause when he mentioned the end of wars in his acceptance speech.
csavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 5 Reply 36, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 681 times:
I think Obama won because of the following (a lot of which has already been mentioned)
1) Right wing tea party American Taliban turned off a whole bunch of fiscally conservative voters.
2) The "legitimate rape" comments didn't help either
3) People are actually smart enough to know that a president, ANY president can't wave a magic wand and fix a broken economy. As much as I am nervous about even more debt from the stimulus, I, and most other Americans remember how Clinton had a surplus. Bush decided on large tax breaks when the US is already low taxed compared to oterh industrialized countries PLUS he decided to piss away billions of dollars (not to mention a lot of lives!) in a war of choice in Iraq, and he gave a blank check to military contractors. Both the Dems and Republicans can take credit for lax oversight that led to the bursting of the housing bubble. Frankly, I think it will take a decade until the effects of that are wrung out of the economy - no matter who is president.
To wit, just because Obama hasn't "fixed" the economy, most Americans percieve that the republicans broke it and that nobody can fix it all that easily. The Republicans assumed that American were stupid enough not to remember 2007!
4) continuing on 3, Romeny's combination of tax cuts and increased military spending that would balance the budget was magical thinking. Everyone knew it, even conservative economists.
5) The "etch-a-sketch" thing. Obama care is basically Romneycare writ large. There could be very legitimate reasons why Romney thought the Massachusetts model wouldn't scale up. Romney could have had legit reasons on why he no longer believed in Romneycare. But he never gave a valid reason why. Result: Most people thought he was even more of a mercenary panderer who would say anything to win an election than other politicians. That. Hurt. Him. Deeply.
So tl:dr, most Americans IMHO
Liked Obama
Weren't thrilled with his economic performance, but
Didn't buy Romney's numbers
Didn't trust the Republicans to fix it either
Didn't trust Romney because of his shifting opinions
Obama did a good job of painting Romney as rich and out-of-touch Tea party and "Independent" attack ads made the Republican brand seem like the KKK brand.
The above was a big one. How many fiscally conservative, libertarian leaning votes did the Republicans lose because of the "birther","You lie!", "doesn't know what it means to be an American", "legitimate rape", "A secret Muslim", "where's the birth certificate" stuff? In my immediate family, I know four. Four lost votes that the Republicans could've had. Note that gay marriage passed in two, probably 3 states, and a lot of the more extreme republican house candidates got their asses handed to them. (Even Michelle Bachman won in a squeaker, and who knows, once all the ballots are counted it could turn the other way.)
Message to the Repubs, throw out the American Taliban from the party entirely, fight for freedom for your bedrooms, wombs, and marriages like you say you fight for your economic freedom. Then we can talk.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 673 times:
For me, Romney seemed to be someone who would be more interested in how he could help himself and his friends. I found him completely and utterly slimy and loathsome. Not that it means anything as a Canadian.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 38, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 680 times:
Quoting pu (Reply 21): it seems to me the Democrats in a normal economy have nothing to worry about....because even in an abnormal economy like this they're strong enough to win.
53% of Americans still blame the economy on Bush. This is an abnormal situation. I wouldn't count on it as the norm going forward that the Dems can count on in future.
bristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 676 times:
Romney definitely lost it - the guy was not appropriate to run the country. Remember what happened las time he went abroad? P!ssed off all 3 countries he went to. He and hence the US) would have been a laughing stock on the national stage.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 40, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 678 times:
Quoting csavel (Reply 36): 3) People are actually smart enough to know that a president, ANY president can't wave a magic wand and fix a broken economy.
And the two corollaries:
3a) Romney never explained how a 1%er vulture capitalist like himself was going to be able to fix things either, and
3b) It was many of the GOP policies like less regulation that lead us right into the Great Financial Crisis to begin with
Time for you to head back to Belmont MA, Mitt. Or was that La Jolla, CA? Or Squam Lake, NH? Somewhere where you can hang with your 1%ers and bitch about the 47%.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6282 posts, RR: 6 Reply 41, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 678 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11): If you look at Ohio (and other industrial states) I think the reason is Obama's support for the auto industry and
I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): Over three years of non-stop job growth is not ineffectual. And that's in spite of the GOP, not because of it.
Job Growth? Sure we are gaining jobs but NOT enough for population growth. The job market is weak. It is hard to find jobs for free for students. The job market sucks. There are very few jobs out there and unemployment is 0.1% higher today than it was when Obama took office. How that is job growth is beyond me.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): THe GOP needs to start listening to those in the party who see victory in the middle. Built on a stronger middle class, intelligent government programs and moderation. The wild eyed hard right clearly lost today.
Agreed. Most Americans want a smaller government, most Americans also to not want taxes raised. Yet most Americans voted for Obama. How I am not sure. I guess they think other issues are more important like Social Issues. I think what killed the GOP here is the primary process. Too many debates, and for a good candidate like Romney to get out of the party he needs to be way too much to the right. The "real" Romney from being GOV in Mass would have had a much better chance at winning this thing. The GOP needs to go more in the center for social issues, get away from religion and politics and just focus on the government. This country is still a Center Right country, the problem is the base of the GOP is too far right.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 667 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
If Ohio had been the deciding factor, maybe that would be true, but Florida and Va are the real stories.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
Job Growth? Sure we are gaining jobs but NOT enough for population growth. The job market is weak. It is hard to find jobs for free for students. The job market sucks. There are very few jobs out there and unemployment is 0.1% higher today than it was when Obama took office. How that is job growth is beyond me.
The job market is shaping up. A lot of the uncertainty about the Affordable care act is over. Housing is recovering The ROW is the big problem right now. Jobs will come ,and they will come fast if housing keeps up the gains,
The economy was a big factor,but I think the GOP overplayed their hand on this. Exit pols yesterday showed that the majority still held the previous administration responsible for the hole we are digging out of. Will that change in the next few years? Perhaps, but it doesn't matter, Obama can't run again.
At the end of the day ,I think the GOP put too much effort into their Rural White base, and it came back to bite them, birtherism, welfare, immigration. These issues along with some of the women's issues hurt them.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 43, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 672 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Translation: Obama doing his job well might have won Obama this race.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): Most Americans want a smaller government
This is where Republicans are wrong. Most Americans want a smaller government... for other people.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): most Americans also to not want taxes raised.
And most Americans will not see their taxes raised, just as no American has seen his taxes raised in Obama's first term.
Obama won this election because Americans think he did a fairly good job with a bad hand, and see the alternative as playing them for fools. Tell enough lies and hope one sticks.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): The GOP needs to go more in the center for social issues, get away from religion and politics and just focus on the government.
This is correct and a half!
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): This country is still a Center Right country
No, it really isn't, and this election should prove it to you. If the GOP wants to be relevant into the future, it has to stop believing this.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): I think what killed the GOP here is the primary process.
Absolutely right. You and I will always agree on this point.
voodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 1962 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 662 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): This country is still a Center Right country, the problem is the base of the GOP is too far right.
True-ish but that may assume an obsolescent definition of the political spectrum.
IMHO: Compared to most 21st-century Western countries political spectrums, it is Obama who is occupying 'Center Right'. If the Dems continue to 'Occupy CR' (see what I did there?) then the Republican Party will probably fracture or, at least, severely convulse, until something befalls the Dems and they lose concentration. See: UK Labour vs. Conservative Party 1997-2010. The GOP cannot 'occupy' where they want, when they want. It's 'No Vacancy' at the moment.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 45, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 666 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Obama won this election because Americans think he did a fairly good job with a bad hand, and see the alternative as playing them for fools.
Pretty much the way I see it as well. Looking back to where we were in 2008 with the world swiftly collapsing economically, Obama is generally seen as not making things worse since then, and not having a hand in creating that crisis, so "blame" was hard to place on the current administration. I think most people understood there wasn't an overnight solution, which is why he was able to be re-elected with a 7.9% unemployment rate.
Last night's voting was incredibly interesting. Ohio, Florida and Virginia have now been mostly marginalized as electorally important. Heck, in Florida they even stopped counting votes in the middle of the night.
InsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 193 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 662 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27): Romney was seen as the rich people's candidate who would have cut down on the "nanny state" therefore unpopular with the masses. A majority of people really like the idea of a "nanny state".
There's lots of room between a nanny state and leaving everyone alone in their mess, no matter what. There are some things Americans can only do together and I think "Sandy" was a good reminder why you need a strong (not big) government to help the people.
Besides, the economy alone would have been enough for the GOP to win, but they lost on social issues. It's time for the GOP to move on to the 21st century. Gay marriage, DADT, a womans right to chose, immigration, health care .....
Their stand on these issues alienates voters and quite frankly doesn't make them trust on economic issues either.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 47, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 656 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 5): Why Obama won. You want the real reason?
Obama managed to convince his base that the economy wasn't his fault and they believed him. Despite virtually every major economic indicator being worse than when he took office.
From Romney's side the Evangelicals stayed home.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 535 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 648 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 47): Obama managed to convince his base that the economy wasn't his fault and they believed him. Despite virtually every major economic indicator being worse than when he took office.
It isn't his fault, these economic crisis are worldwide and one man can't magically make everything better when rest of the world is mostly going worse. Educated part of US population understands that and voted for Obama, other than those who had a lot of money and thus voted for Romney as his politics would have benefited rich people.
Aloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4397 posts, RR: 17 Reply 51, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 642 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6): I'd add a highly sophisticated "get out the vote" program in the most strategic areas. If anything, the Obama campaign knew where their voters were, and got them to the polls.
I'd agree with this. A large part of the reason Obama won was because they still had most of the info of the 2008 voters, knew how to contact them, bussed them to polls, and had far more field offices per capita than the Romney campaign. Their GOTV machine worked very well this time around, just as it did in 2008, and will likely be the model for future campaigns, both Republican and Democrat.
I also feel that the Republicans' social agenda is hurting them. The only way they're going to start winning elections again is if they dump the tea party and return to moderation.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 52, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 618 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Or a wise plan that saves tax dollars in the long run may have won Obama this race!
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Translation: Obama doing his job well might have won Obama this race.
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Obama won this election because Americans think he did a fairly good job with a bad hand, and see the alternative as playing them for fools.
That's the down side of being "The Party of NO" - it's hard to convince anyone that you would do anything constructive should you gain power.
Quoting InsideMan (Reply 46): There are some things Americans can only do together and I think "Sandy" was a good reminder why you need a strong (not big) government to help the people.
As opposed to GWB's abandonment of New Orleans. The image of him "surveying damage" from AF1 created many anti-GWBers that day. I suppose GWB had all of New Orleans in the 47% category so he didn't bother landing AF1.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 54, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 623 times:
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 51): I also feel that the Republicans' social agenda is hurting them. The only way they're going to start winning elections again is if they dump the tea party and return to moderation.
Just read an interesting statistic — the last time a Republican won a presidential election without a Bush or a Nixon on the ticket was 1928 when Herbert Hoover was elected.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16245 posts, RR: 52 Reply 55, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 627 times:
Quoting pu (Thread starter): It seems to me the ECONOMY was not the decisive issue as commonly believed:
The economy was a factor, however exit polling showed the majority of voters blamed former President Bush for the current state of the economy. The posters below sum up the economy issue best;
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38): 53% of Americans still blame the economy on Bush
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Obama won this election because Americans think he did a fairly good job with a bad hand,
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45): Pretty much the way I see it as well. Looking back to where we were in 2008 with the world swiftly collapsing economically, Obama is generally seen as not making things worse since then, and not having a hand in creating that crisis, so "blame" was hard to place on the current administration.
AviRaider From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 624 times:
It's simple, the GOP didn't have the right candidate. Mitt was not polarizing enough, as a candidate and on the issues for people to get a sense of the differences. The popular vote pretty much paints the picture, that this country is virtually split down the middle on ideology. The GOP needs a newcomer someone that feels fresh and has alot of ideas.
4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2843 posts, RR: 11 Reply 57, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 611 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): If they have a sensible economic plan --which they haven't so far-- and drop the "kick the gays/ban contraception/treat abortion lime murder" thing, they might actually be able to do well.
This.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): e GOP needs to start listening to those in the party who see victory in the middle. Built on a stronger middle class, intelligent government programs and moderation. The wild eyed hard right clearly lost today.
And that.
Quoting csavel (Reply 36): I think Obama won because of the following (a lot of which has already been mentioned)
Your entire post largely sums it up for this Independent as well.
If a Party represents itself as #1 "Ours is the party of the evangelical christian!!!" I reply, "Well you've excluded me then!".
Drop: your obsession with marginalizing gays (and I'm straight!), abortion/contraception bans, Obama as Muslim/Kenyan, Mexican as scapegoat, AZ Gov Jan Brewer's crooked finger, "you lie!", and other blatant disrespectful attacks on the Office of The President...
Add: Willingness to compromise with those folks across the aisle instead of demonizing them, discussion as to ones own economic plan/vision instead of just attacking the other side.
When it came down to it, I just didn't like the way the Republicans went about the business of politics, and I voted for Obama even though I really didn't want to.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 608 times:
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 56): The popular vote pretty much paints the picture, that this country is virtually split down the middle on ideology.
But what ideology? Don't assume that everyone who voted Republican has social conservative views. If the GOP goes too far down that path in attempt to be "polarizing enough" then they will get nowhere.
bueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 529 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 611 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): How that is job growth is beyond me.
Because 500,000 jobs have been added... Job growth = the growth of jobs.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Fine, take away Ohio and give it to Romney, Obama's still won.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): This country is still a Center Right country,
Nope. Everyone likes to think that but if you look at specific polling on an issue by issue basis, the country is fundamentally progressive, you guys just don't realise it... Like look at Obamacare. Unpopular bill - when you call it Obamacare. Even if you ask Republicans if they support the individual provisions of the bill (without telling them its Obamacare) they overwhelmingly support it, apart from - yup - the Republican part, the personal mandate.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 47): Despite virtually every major economic indicator being worse than when he took office.
Such as? GDP is up... When Obama took office, the US was losing 700,000 jobs a month... Now its gaining over 100,000 a month steadily - a net change of over 800,000 jobs. But in the Republican world, that's bad (but not if a Republican was the incumbent).
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 56): It's simple, the GOP didn't have the right candidate. Mitt was not polarizing enough, as a candidate and on the issues for people to get a sense of the differences.
Nope - notice how his ratings went up massively when he pretended to be all moderate for the debates? People *hate* the polarisation. They want moderate candidates. People may want a fiscal conservative but they sure as hell no longer want candidates with socially conservative views. Mitt could quite easily have been the right candidate; Romney didn't lose the election, the GOP did. People weren't worried about Romney being the president, they were worried about the GOP getting the presidency. Had he been more polarising the defeat would have been even worse.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 60, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 612 times:
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 51):
I also feel that the Republicans' social agenda is hurting them. The only way they're going to start winning elections again is if they dump the tea party and return to moderation.
Quoting 4holer (Reply 57): Drop: your obsession with marginalizing gays (and I'm straight!), abortion/contraception bans, Obama as Muslim/Kenyan, Mexican as scapegoat, AZ Gov Jan Brewer's crooked finger, "you lie!", and other blatant disrespectful attacks on the Office of The President...
Add to that saying that you're trying to fix (negligible amounts of) voter fraud by making it harder for people to vote.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 61, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 607 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38): 53% of Americans still blame the economy on Bush.
That's ridiculous. If you ask for the ball, you'd better not drop the pass. In 2008 Obama stood up and said that he could fix things, and yet he hasn't. Not by a long shot.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Absolutely. He bought himself a win with our money.
I wonder which politician will benefit in thirty years or so when they'll be due for their next bailout...
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45): I think most people understood there wasn't an overnight solution
There's a difference between "not overnight" and "four years plus a lot of stimulus and things still suck".
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 62, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 608 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61): There's a difference between "not overnight" and "four years plus a lot of stimulus and things still suck".
Don't worry, you'll eventually get a job in aerospace engineering soon enough if you're as qualified as you claim (but your profile says 16 - 20 as your age range?). Keep plugging at it! We're all behind you!
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 63, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 606 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 62): Don't worry, you'll eventually get a job in aerospace engineering soon enough if you're as qualified as you claim
Theoretically, but Obama's reelection won't help any. And when I do get a job, I'm sure the government will have no problems heavily taxing single guys with decent salaries to pay for everyone else.
But, it was nice of Obama to tell defense contractors to break the law and he would pick up the tab. He'd better hope Congress finds that $1.2 trillion so it doesn't matter or people might have some tough questions.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7751 posts, RR: 22 Reply 64, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 606 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Translation: Obama doing his job well might have won Obama this race.
So you are saying that buying people's votes with taxpayer money is the President's job? How low have we fallen...
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
Most Americans want a smaller government
This is where Republicans are wrong. Most Americans want a smaller government... for other people.
According to exit polls, 54% want the government to do LESS for them, not more.
Quoting D L X (Reply 43): And most Americans will not see their taxes raised, just as no American has seen his taxes raised in Obama's first term.
When the majority votes to increase taxes on a minority (e.g. "the rich") and cuts for themselves that's called a tyranny of the majority.
Dick Morris wrote an excellent piece today. The Democratic win yesterday comes down to one thing - Divide and Conquer.
Quote: I’ve got egg on my face. I predicted a Romney landslide and, instead, we ended up with an Obama squeaker.
The key reason for my bum prediction is that I mistakenly believed that the 2008 surge in black, Latino, and young voter turnout would recede in 2012 to “normal” levels. Didn’t happen. These high levels of minority and young voter participation are here to stay. And, with them, a permanent reshaping of our nation’s politics.
In 2012, 13% of the vote was cast by blacks. In 04, it was 11%. This year, 10% was Latino. In ’04 it was 8%. This time, 19% was cast by voters under 30 years of age. In ’04 it was 17%. Taken together, these results swelled the ranks of Obama’s three-tiered base by five to six points, accounting fully for his victory.
I derided the media polls for their assumption of what did, in fact happen: That blacks, Latinos, and young people would show up in the same numbers as they had in 2008. I was wrong. They did.
...
By the time you finish with the various demographic groups the Democrats win, you almost have a majority in their corner. Count them: Blacks cast 13% of the vote and Obama won them 12-1. Latinos cast 10% and Obama carried them by 7-3. Under 30 voters cast 19% of the vote and Obama swept them by 12-7. Single white women cast 18% of the total vote and Obama won them by 12-6. There is some overlap among these groups, of course, but without allowing for any, Obama won 43-17 before the first married white woman or man over 30 cast their vote. (Lets guess that if we eliminate duplication, the Obama margin would be 35-13) Having conceded these votes, Romney would have had to win over two-thirds of the rest of the vote to win. He almost did. But not quite.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 5 Reply 65, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 602 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19): And yet the economy is still struggling.
Why is this a surprise? The Great Recession is a huge problem and will have a generational impact. Two wars on the credit card being wound down. A House of Representatives shaking in fear over the Tea Party and a Senate being blocked by Republicans who's only goal was to make Obama a one term President.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19): And the government is planning to cut defense and increase taxes.
There are plenty of arguments for cutting Defense when you are able to cut out those costs directly related to two wars.
A chunk of those war funds need to flow to the VA to take care of Veterans. Long term tax dollars going to Vets, which is something the nation needs to consider critical.
There needs for rebuilding parts of the military that were consumed or worn down. We need to maintain various material systems AND the production facilities within the US to continue producing simple items, like ammunition.
We also need to deliver funding for continual training programs. It's great to have some wicked fighters, but we need pilots who are well trained on a continual basis to make those fighters at a level of maximum efficiency.
Where we can, IMO, cut the billions going to "consultants". We are better of increasing the number of senior officers to do their jobs. The military promotion system pushes out some pretty impressive people, only to pay far more for their talents via private industry contracts.
Reality, though, is that it takes tax revenues to have the military people want. Conservatives can't build up the military and cut revenues at the same time.
Tech at the consumer level is about developing and delivering products that the consumer wants to buy. Apple is delivering a consumer tech boom and has been for years. Look at the companies, not the industry.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27): Obama conveys a highly popular image, especially among women "I am the people's friend".
Romney didn't.
I believe that Romney has been too far away from the Middle Class for far too long to really be able to connect with this critical group. How many people felt he would take care of his very wealthy fiends,
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27): Romney was seen as the rich people's candidate who would have cut down on the "nanny state" therefore unpopular with the masses. A majority of people really like the idea of a "nanny state".
The real scare for many moderates was related to how much damage Romney AND Ryan would tear down Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. How deep would the cuts have been in order for the very wealthy to get more tax cuts. For people in my age group the far isn't for ourselves, but for our kids and grandkids.
BTW, I don't consider Social Security and Medicare to be "nanny state" programs simply because I paid into these programs during my working years.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27): Also most people voted Obama simply because they knew what to expect from him, good or bad.
I think that is true, especially when compared to Romney/Ryan and all the games they were ready to play.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 30): To me, that was waaaay over-done. The GOP spent a lot of time and energy on it and they ended up looking like opportunists instead of leaders.
It was a desperate move that really didn't work very well.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 30): Personally, I didn't like the stimulus, and I hope fiscal issues get a lot more attention.
I loved the stimulus when it was related to investments in infrastructure. Build, Baby, Build. Especially when it is the private sector doing the work with stimulus funding.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 30): Perhaps, but that's the source of a lot of the enthusiasm in the GOP.
If it becomes all about the Rockefeller Republicans, how are they going to keep the base happy?
A Rockefeller Republican could have won the election yesterday. The American Taliban didn't and, hopefully, never will.
Quoting csavel (Reply 36): Right wing tea party American Taliban
That is a great phrase.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38): 53% of Americans still blame the economy on Bush. This is an abnormal situation.
Bush/Cheney was an abnormal economic situation and left the country in The Great Recession. When you do as bad a job as Bush & Cheney did they you are not going to be able to cover it up in a short 4 years. Maybe 40 or 50 years, but I doubt even that.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): Most Americans want a smaller government
But we want the government there when a disaster hits. We want it there to protect us from thalidomide type problems. We want it there to protect our communities, be it with police and fire, or community medical systems.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): I guess they think other issues are more important like Social Issues.
Social Issues, which includes Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, are important for those not in the top1% of the top 1%.
It has to be one of the factors that re-elected Obama and it is going to be one of the most difficult areas for the GOP to look at when trying to rebuild their party.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 42): If Ohio had been the deciding factor, maybe that would be true, but Florida and Va are the real stories.
Florida was a non-issue in this election. It hasn't even been called and is now in the "who cares" column for this Presidential Election.
Quoting InsideMan (Reply 46): There's lots of room between a nanny state and leaving everyone alone in their mess, no matter what.
Sometimes it might help to look at the costs of a government program -v- a private industry program. Health care is the classic example. We burden employers with overpriced nanny care benefits while other countries get better ratings (in terms of outcomes) at a far lower cost.
Maybe we need to stop worrying about "nanny" programs and start looking for the most bang for the buck. We need to look overseas for guidance on that when it comes to health care.
Quoting flymia (Reply 41): Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Tax dollars that generate success can help a PResident (or governor or mayor) get re-elected. The auto bailout was an outstanding success, giving Obama a pretty big lead in states with a lot of workers involved in the auto industry.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 603 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63): Theoretically, but Obama's reelection won't help any. And when I do get a job, I'm sure the government will have no problems heavily taxing single guys with decent salaries to pay for everyone else.
When you get a job, your tax rate will be less than mine was when I started out. So quit the griping.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63): But, it was nice of Obama to tell defense contractors to break the law and he would pick up the tab. He'd better hope Congress finds that $1.2 trillion so it doesn't matter or people might have some tough questions.
He asked for it since congress did not do their jobs on the fiscall cliff before adjouning to run for election. Now that the fiscal cliff is inbound, Congress is going to either kick the can down a few months, or they will run us over the cliff and into a depression. I am betting on the can kicking.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 599 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65): Florida was a non-issue in this election. It hasn't even been called and is now in the "who cares" column for this Presidential Election.
My point was about the auto bailout mattering. Sure Ohio was the deciding factor. But if Ohio hadn't gone, Florida , Colorado, Virginia, and Iowa were there to pick up the slack,
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
Because four years ago there was a guy who stood up and convinced us he could make it better, and didn't but spent a lot of money trying.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65): There are plenty of arguments for cutting Defense when you are able to cut out those costs directly related to two wars.
Then cut those costs and leave the rest to make sure there's something left to fight the next war.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65): The military promotion system pushes out some pretty impressive people, only to pay far more for their talents via private industry contracts.
That's the only reason I'd have ever considered the military.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65): Have you looked at Apple lately?
One company does not a boom make.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 66): He asked for it since congress did not do their jobs on the fiscall cliff before adjouning to run for election.
...I'm sure that the fact that it would have meant a bunch of layoff notices going out right before election day had nothing to do with it. It was a smart move by Obama.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 69, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 613 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64): So you are saying that buying people's votes with taxpayer money is the President's job?
No, but I expect you will pervert whatever I say.
Republicans were screaming bloody murder about jobs in America. But when the President actually works to create or save jobs, you call it "buying people's votes."
(And then you have the gall to say that Romney is not buying votes with the promises of tax cuts.)
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64): According to exit polls, 54% want the government to do LESS for them, not more.
Yeah, you're going to need to provide a source if you're going to try to prove me wrong on that one.
I have no idea how you read Dick Morris' column and conclude that.
The Republican party has done whatever it can whenever it can to push these voters away. Obama did not divide them out of the American population - the Republicans pushed them to vote for Obama.
If you want your party to ever have power again, you need to stop blaming Obama and take a long look in the Mirror.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 70, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 599 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): ...I'm sure that the fact that it would have meant a bunch of layoff notices going out right before election day had nothing to do with it. It was a smart move by Obama.
If congress hadn't kicked the ball in 2011 , we wouldn't be in thi predicament. It was the right thing to do for Obama, and the rest of Congress that didn't want to see Unemployment rise. This would not have been good for any elected official.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 71, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 606 times:
In other news:
In other news: a photo of Seattle this morning after the state of Washington legalized marijuana:
Nope. It is reality. It is based on just how disastrous an economy Bush delivered.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61): He bought himself a win with our money.
Actually he delivered a success with those tax dollars, and we are getting that money back. So, in the end he bought long term jobs with that money and the people who got those jobs vote. As do their family members and friends.
It's very painful for conservatives, but efforts to support American companies & jobs by the government can be very successful. Look at the original Chrysler bailout. Conservatives hated it, they screamed just as loud at the big time profits the government made off the investment.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): Because four years ago there was a guy who stood up and convinced us he could make it better
And he did. Turning the Great Recession around is not a simple 4 year task simply because it was a huge economic puck up that Bush & Cheney left us.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): Then cut those costs and leave the rest to make sure there's something left to fight the next war.
There will be plenty of military might. Look at carrier groups - the Enterprise just finished their last deployment and will be shut down and cut down. (I even posted a link about that). There is, however, a replacement for the Enterprise being built so we're maintaining that strength.
The problem we are having with the military was on the personnel side. Bush/Cheney over deployed troops in the Middle East in order to avoid the political nightmare of bringing back the draft. People were given far too little time between deployments to recover, rebuild family relationships and retrain for the next deployment.
That abuse of the troops will increase long term costs because of issues like PTSD. It has also led to abnormally high suicide rates. And it has cost the military high numbers of O3 & O4 officers. There was an article on the loss of this important group of officers, especially those officers ready to be promoted to major. The military was admitting that they were going to need to prematurely promote some captains to major simply to fill the slots.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): That's the only reason I'd have ever considered the military.
Choosing wisely in joining the military can be a huge step to a very good job later. Personally I'd go for sea duty in the Navy simply because it provides excellent experience as well as excellent exposure to other countries. There have been articles about the development of Naval officers on international relations - they need it because Naval ships go into ports all over the world. Building an understanding of international relations and the different cultures in this world is, in itself, bonus for landing a job in a company with international operations.
In the end, however, the primary reason for joining should be that you are serving your country. That delivers the most rewards over the rest of your life.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): One company does not a boom make.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7751 posts, RR: 22 Reply 73, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 603 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): No, but I expect you will pervert whatever I say.
I asked a simple question.
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): Republicans were screaming bloody murder about jobs in America. But when the President actually works to create or save jobs, you call it "buying people's votes."
A president (or government in general) can help create jobs by getting out of the way, and in a very few cases, by direct intervention (such as giving tax credits for a new technology). The idea that one of the purposes of the goverment is to create jobs by buying/subsidizing stuff, including military procurement, is a perversion. If the government needs to buy 100 planes for the Air Force, the motivation should be that the Air Force needs them - the fact that their manufacture would create 10,000 jobs should be entirely beside the point and not relevant to the decision.
In fact I am on record here of proposing that the US Air Force buy some EuroFighters, Gripens and Sukhois, in order to shake up Lockheed and Boeing from their complacency.
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): (And then you have the gall to say that Romney is not buying votes with the promises of tax cuts.)
What will it take for you to get it through your heads that tax cuts/breaks is not the same as government expenditures? It's their money!
Now tax deductions and rules which allow you to get a larger tax refund than the income tax you paid in, 100% that is a bribe - welfare handouts in disguise.
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
According to exit polls, 54% want the government to do LESS for them, not more.
Yeah, you're going to need to provide a source if you're going to try to prove me wrong on that one.
Sorry, I got the percentage wrong. It's 51% (want less gov't) vs. 43%.
Quote: And Romney's campaign against big government seemed to strike a chord. In preliminary results, about half — 51 percent — said government is doing too many things that should be left to the private sector, while 43 percent wanted government to do more. That's a reversal from four years ago.
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): I have no idea how you read Dick Morris' column and conclude that.
The Republican party has done whatever it can whenever it can to push these voters away.
The GOP does not talk to them at all! The GOP has this silly idea that everyone should be treated equally, and not pandered to separately. The Democrats basically discovered race-based divide and conquer tactics in the 60s, (when they started targeting the traditionally Republican black vote).
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 74, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 606 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72): Actually he delivered a success with those tax dollars, and we are getting that money back.
If I wanted GM stock, I'd have bought GM stock. It's not the government's place to bail out private companies.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72): So, in the end he bought long term jobs with that money and the people who got those jobs vote. As do their family members and friends.
...what about the people who work for other companies that managed their way through the recession without government help? How about the people whose companies should not have to face competition from a company that shouldn't be in existence in its present form? The government picked the winners and losers.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72): It's very painful for conservatives, but efforts to support American companies & jobs by the government can be very successful.
If the only way to not fail is to get bailed out by the government, it means you failed.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72): Look at the original Chrysler bailout. Conservatives hated it, they screamed just as loud at the big time profits the government made off the investment.
If the bailout was such a success, why did they come back for another round in thirty years? People should learn their lesson and cut off crap like this. If you can't compete, you go out of business.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 72): It could if the competition could keep up.
Trust me, I don't expect the likes of Apple or Google to apologize for their success. But the tech boom was a lot deeper than consumer electronics.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 75, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 580 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74): It's not the government's place to bail out private companies.
Why not?
You guys keep saying it as if this is a stone cold fact, but it really isn't anything more than an opinion.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): A president (or government in general) can help create jobs by getting out of the way
Clearly, that is not the only way.
Face it dude, you're going to whine no matter what a Democrat does.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): The idea that one of the purposes of the goverment is to create jobs by buying/subsidizing stuff, including military procurement, is a perversion. If the government needs to buy 100 planes for the Air Force, the motivation should be that the Air Force needs them - the fact that their manufacture would create 10,000 jobs should be entirely beside the point and not relevant to the decision.
You're in the small minority on that issue even in your own party.
That article does not support your argument. Like, at all.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): The GOP has this silly idea that everyone should be treated equally, and not pandered to separately.
Baloney. The GOP may pretend that they are blind to ethnicity, but who is being targeted on immigration? On national security? On welfare? It ain't white people. You need to be honest with yourself instead of blaming others.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): The Democrats basically discovered race-based divide and conquer tactics in the 60s, (when they started targeting the traditionally Republican black vote).
I'm sorry, but are you really criticizing the Civil Rights Act of 1964? And have you ever heard of the Southern Strategy used to thwart it?
Because they do it with our money. I'm fine with paying taxes to fund services the government provides for me. Keeping mediocre car companies afloat does not provide me any service, or at least the benefit I could derive from it is something I could do myself. It's a decision the government needlessly takes from our hands. The reason why they needed the bailout in the first place is that nobody else was willing to touch it. Now if all of the best financial people in private equity and banks realize that the investment is toxic and not good enough for them, why would I want taxpayer money in it? The problem with the government is that they are always spending other people's money. Nobody was willing to put their money into it, but they were all too willing to put mine into it.
If I wanted a piece of the company, I'd buy it myself.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 78, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): The idea that one of the purposes of the goverment is to create jobs by buying/subsidizing stuff, including military procurement, is a perversion.
It is a bit of a perversion, but the GOP is just as guilty of it. Romney and George Allen (running for Senator in Virginia) both campaigned aggressively that they would "create" jobs in Virginia by increasing defense spending. They never said why we needed to increase defense spending, just that it would create jobs.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 79, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63): Theoretically, but Obama's reelection won't help any. And when I do get a job, I'm sure the government will have no problems heavily taxing single guys with decent salaries to pay for everyone else.
I'm still wondering why you don't go to China to get that job. Very little pesky government to get into the way of a rising star like yourself, the rest that does can just be paid off, perfect for a social Darwinist like yourself. Go to China, my young social Darwinist shark, and feed on the fishes! It's your best shot at being at the top of the skyscraper drinking Dom while your inferiors live in slums a few blocks away, nicely fenced off so you don't have to see them when your limo takes you from place to place.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64): Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
I agree with that. Our tax dollars might have won Obama this race.
Translation: Obama doing his job well might have won Obama this race.
So you are saying that buying people's votes with taxpayer money is the President's job? How low have we fallen...
Great twist job here.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68): Because four years ago there was a guy who stood up and convinced us he could make it better, and didn't but spent a lot of money trying.
That's because 12 years ago a guy decided he could cut taxes across the board without reducing expenditures, indeed got us into two wars with huge expenditures, and was hoping and praying that a housing bubble would last another year or so longer than it did, but it didn't.
Too bad the country didn't get a chance to vote on how that guy from four years ago was doing his job.
Oh, wait, we did, and it was just yesterday, and the country re-elected him!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74): If I wanted GM stock, I'd have bought GM stock. It's not the government's place to bail out private companies.
You might have noticed that more than a few private companies did go under at the time, and the government did nothing to help them.
In the case of GM and Chrysler, both parties and both administrations realized that the cost of them (and their supply chains) going down would cost more in unemployment etc than it would to merely loan them money and help them survive.
You might want to wake up and realize that your point of view LOST yesterday.
If that depresses you, well, as above, China looks mighty tempting, doesn't it?
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 80, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 565 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Because they do it with our money. I'm fine with paying taxes to fund services the government provides for me.
That's cool. There's about 60 million other people that either think the services provided were for them, or think that it's more that just "me, me, ME!"
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 81, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 566 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 60): Add to that saying that you're trying to fix (negligible amounts of) voter fraud by making it harder for people to vote.
No one was crying when we didn't have early voting. There was a time when everybody voted on the SAME day. When I lived in the US there were two things I never did early, open presents and vote.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 47 Reply 82, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 567 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 81): There was a time when everybody voted on the SAME day.
What's wrong with early voting? Seriously? It's very convenient. It allows more people to vote. Personally, if I didn't vote early, I probably wouldn't have been able to fly. I came in early, got delayed, finally got a plane, flew, debriefed, and it was pretty late when I got out.
Some people are working 2 jobs. Seriously, why is early voting a big deal?
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 83, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 572 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 79): I'm still wondering why you don't go to China to get that job.
I'm more than willing to listen to offers. Just a matter of getting someone to write a check. Nobody has earned my loyalty.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 79): You might have noticed that more than a few private companies did go under at the time, and the government did nothing to help them.
So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others? Seems like the government picking winners and losers.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 79): In the case of GM and Chrysler, both parties and both administrations realized that the cost of them (and their supply chains) going down would cost more
Funny you should mention that, since just today there was a news item the Ford and GM teamed up to bail out one of their Australian suppliers, without the government buying the supplier. Of course, the article also says that Australia provides $2.5 billion per year, so how sustainable the industry is would be very questionable, but at least it's not my money.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 79): You might want to wake up and realize that your point of view LOST yesterday.
Who wouldn't vote for the guy who saved your job with other peoples' money?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
mt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 84, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 566 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others? Seems like the government picking winners and loser
Tell us what you do, who you work for and we will gladly look into it.
Let's get one thing straight: IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY. IT'S EVERYBODY'S MONEY. You are not the sole provider of taxes to the US government (and I would be very surprised if you've broken out of the bottom million taxpayers yet).
You act as if your personal fortune has been taken away to save GM. I wasn't aware that you had 50 billion dollars taken away in taxes.
Now that we got that straight:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others? Seems like the government picking winners and losers.
And just think how many of your our dollars would have been saved paying those people who would have lost their jobs for not producing anything?
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4627 posts, RR: 7 Reply 86, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 570 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): I'm more than willing to listen to offers. Just a matter of getting someone to write a check. Nobody has earned my loyalty.
And therein lies your problem, it is not the employers task to earn your loyalty prior to hiring you (*there are some exceptions to this for those people who have well proven abilities or success), it is your task to prove your worth to them once you are hired. Once your value as an employee is proven they will well reward you to keep you or risk losing you to another company.
(You know if I didn't know you better I would say you sound like a lot of those people on the dole that keeping saying "I haven't found the right opportunity yet" but are waiting for abetter paycheck than the unemployment or welfare they are currently receiving. But I know that is not you as you are against that.)
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 88, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 575 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 80): There's about 60 million other people that either think the services provided were for them,
Where were those people? If everyone thought that saving Chrysler and GM with their money was such a great idea, why did the government have to do it at all? They should have been lining up to invest in a sure fire win. They should have been clamoring to get a piece of the dream. They should have been excited for the chance to invest in America! Except that they weren't. Nobody was willing to step in, which is why the government had to. People weren't that interested in saving the car companies with their money, but it's cool with them to use someone else's money.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 80): think that it's more that just "me, me, ME!"
Thinking that way is when you start to lose. Pushing everything towards the middle makes a giant blob of average, which is a problem since America built itself on not being average. Maximize the ceiling and the floor takes care of itself.
That line of thinking is the beginning of the end. Deciding that not losing is better than winning and that things should be done for you rather than doing things for yourself is when any chance of being exceptional will die.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 84): Tell us what you do, who you work for and we will gladly look into it.
Unemployed, and from what I've heard, a lot of it has to do with governmental wrangling over budgets and a large swath of politicians looking to slash defense spending while bailing out companies that have legitimately run themselves out of business. Why should the government save GM and Chrysler while letting others fail? Why should they punish those companies that managed themselves in a way that allowed them to survive the downturn by leaving them competitors they shouldn't have, at least not in their present form? Was it the unions? Votes in swing states?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 89, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 575 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 81): There was a time when everybody voted on the SAME day.
Right, and there was a time when kids rode horseback to school. What's your point?
I used to get Election Day off from school as a kid. Now, forget about getting it off as a company holiday.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others?
Then, what, Linens n’ Things employees?
I think it has something to do with the fact that if ALL of GM, Chrysler and their suppliers employees got laid off at the same time, and they all pulled a bunch of cash out of their very shaky banks at the same time, and went down to their government unemployment offices at the same time, there'd be a bigger mess than if the government just loaned them the money, and it'd be a lot harder to rebuild the economy if all those workers were gone with the wind. Linen n' Things? Not so much.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): Funny you should mention that, since just today there was a news item the Ford and GM teamed up to bail out one of their Australian suppliers, without the government buying the supplier.
Funny how you don't seem to mention that banks are willing to lend Ford and GM money these days, whereas they weren't in 2008. Back then most of the banks were too busy wondering if they'd crash or not due to all the crap CMOs they had in their vaults, with AIG's worthless insurance backing them up.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4627 posts, RR: 7 Reply 90, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 575 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 85): Let's get one thing straight: IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY. IT'S EVERYBODY'S MONEY. You are not the sole provider of taxes to the US government (and I would be very surprised if you've broken out of the bottom million taxpayers yet).
I am betting that he is still living on the "public dime" in that he has not yet contributed more in taxes etc that he has benefited from in his life. And he probably doesn't even realize it. From state land for schools to assistance for college loans to industries that depend on public funding and monies, to the rules and laws created and passed by the communities he lives in, the "common good" is a vast element of our stable and successful society. Even if some don't want to admit it.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 91, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Where were those people? If everyone thought that saving Chrysler and GM with their money was such a great idea, why did the government have to do it at all? They should have been lining up to invest in a sure fire win. They should have been clamoring to get a piece of the dream. They should have been excited for the chance to invest in America! Except that they weren't. Nobody was willing to step in, which is why the government had to. People weren't that interested in saving the car companies with their money, but it's cool with them to use someone else's money.
Wow. You really have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Just explain to me how "the people" could have independently "lined up" to buy out a bankrupt company at above-market rates?
The correct answer is: they can't. Governments can do things that individuals or even large groups of people can't.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88): Thinking that way is when you start to lose. Pushing everything towards the middle makes a giant blob of average, which is a problem since America built itself on not being average. Maximize the ceiling and the floor takes care of itself.
That line of thinking is the beginning of the end. Deciding that not losing is better than winning and that things should be done for you rather than doing things for yourself is when any chance of being exceptional will die.
Say that in 10 years, after you've had a chance to live and work in the real world, and not the fantasy one Fox News has created for you. At some point, you will realize that you can't do everything by yourself, and having things done for you will actually help you grow.
Oh, and for the record, America first built itself by forcing Natives off their lands.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Unemployed, and from what I've heard, a lot of it has to do with governmental wrangling over budgets and a large swath of politicians looking to slash defense spending while bailing out companies that have legitimately run themselves out of business
Bullshit. You are unemployed because you spend the time you could be looking for a job, posting about how unfair it is the government takes YOUR money (that you don't even make!).
It's funny how you preach self-sufficiency in one sentence, but don't hesitate to blame the actions of others for your own shortcomings.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 92, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 85): Let's get one thing straight: IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY. IT'S EVERYBODY'S MONEY.
That's the problem with liberals: they start with the premise that they (or the government) should get the right of first refusal and people should be happy with whatever's left.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 85): You act as if your personal fortune has been taken away to save GM. I wasn't aware that you had 50 billion dollars taken away in taxes.
Considering what I might realistically make over the course of a career, with a government more than willing to take over a third of my income, we are talking about a small fortune. At least it's enough money to get me to pay attention. I'd rather control and use as much of that money as possible in the way that I choose.
Quoting tugger (Reply 86): And therein lies your problem, it is not the employers task to earn your loyalty prior to hiring you
My point was that there is nothing special about America that would keep me here if there were a better opportunity.
I've always promised myself that there would never be a situation too good to walk away from. I'll never be loyal to any company I don't own, and maybe not even then. Loyalty to the people you work with is one thing, but I know I'll always be a government program or two away from having whatever "loyalty" there is being wiped out.
Quoting Mir (Reply 87): But it is the government's place to (as you suggested on another thread) support your chosen industry so that you can have a job?
I don't expect it to be supported as a jobs program, it should be supported because it's needed. But cutting defense to support further social programs when defense actually does need the funds is a poor idea. Especially when the government has no problem looking out for others. I don't need the government to provide everything, but it's ridiculous to see them taking care of pretty much every group but mine. Like I've said before, who creates more jobs? Trailer trash single moms or people with engineering degrees?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 89): Then, what, Linens n%u2019 Things employees?
Circuit City could have used a bailout. Companies need to be put on notice that there will be no more bailouts and their problems will not become taxpayer problems.
Quoting tugger (Reply 90): I am betting that he is still living on the "public dime" in that he has not yet contributed more in taxes etc that he has benefited from in his life.
Not really. My family never made a lot of money yet managed to set aside enough money for my siblings and I to be educated and my parents should be able to retire and I'm lucky enough to have some savings to last me for a while. Sure there's no McMansion or giant flatscreen, but the people saying that Americans need government help to get by unless they are wealthy are full of it.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 91): Just explain to me how "the people" could have independently "lined up" to buy out a bankrupt company at above-market rates?
Private equity, mutual funds, etc. All those investment vehicles, some of which specialize in turning around failing companies, could have played a part in saving the car companies either as a whole or after a breakup. Nobody was willing to put money into failing companies except the government.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 91): You are unemployed because you spend the time you could be looking for a job, posting about how unfair it is the government takes YOUR money (that you don't even make!).
I spend plenty of time looking for jobs, but I can tell you there aren't many out there. And why would I support measures that might help me today but spend the next four decades or so kicking my ass?
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 91): It's funny how you preach self-sufficiency in one sentence, but don't hesitate to blame the actions of others for your own shortcomings.
I've heard from more than one person that the uncertainty is killing hiring. Nobody knows what's going to be funded and what isn't and until that's solved it's a holding pattern.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Unemployed, and from what I've heard, a lot of it has to do with governmental wrangling over budgets and a large swath of politicians looking to slash defense spending while bailing out companies that have legitimately run themselves out of business
Bullshit. You are unemployed because you spend the time you could be looking for a job, posting about how unfair it is the government takes YOUR money (that you don't even make!).
It's funny how you preach self-sufficiency in one sentence, but don't hesitate to blame the actions of others for your own shortcomings.
Plus one to this. I don't post much, but this really pisses me off. BMI, from what I can tell, we are in much the same place in our lives, Aerospace engineering students, very near graduation, and looking what is the next step. I am going to grad school first, not industry, but my point will still stand.
You sit there complaining how the government takes your money (which, as a student, it takes almost none of. How do I know? I get a refund check too, just like you) but then you can't find an aerospace job because they are slashing defense. Guess what, there are aerospace jobs out there to be had. I am not even looking for a full-time position and have gotten several offers for such. I have grad school lined up and ready to go. You know how? That precious personal responsibility you keep exposing. I don't sit here waiting for the government, or Boeing, or GE to offer me a job, I go out and impress the hell out of every single person I have worked with (and I have had the great fortune to work with some of the top people in both industry and academia). That's how you get a job, you push yourself to do every possible thing you can, to be the best you possibly can. Is it easy? Hell no it isn't, but that's what you do to be the best, and you can and will be rewarded. Aerospace engineering is one of the few fields that is actually looking up, and has been.
I am a future aerospace engineer, just like you, but I recognize that defense spending is out of control (look at the F35 program for god's sake), even if that may cost me a job. I recognize it because I am not looking out only for myself, but for my friends, my family, and my countrymen. The idealization of the "so long as I get mine" attitude is at best unproductive and ineffective, and at worst, puerile. We are a country, not a land of singular individuals. The best achievements of mankind were not achieved by a man, any man, but by men.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4627 posts, RR: 7 Reply 95, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 564 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Not really. My family never made a lot of money yet managed to set aside enough money for my siblings and I to be educated and my parents should be able to retire and I'm lucky enough to have some savings to last me for a while. Sure there's no McMansion or giant flatscreen, but the people saying that Americans need government help to get by unless they are wealthy are full of it.
You are missing the important points of what I said. It's not that your family has done OK and save d and provided for you and the family as a whole. It is that you are living in a place were that are laws that have been passed by people whose salary you did not pay and those laws are enforced by people that you do not pay and they patrol and your drive on streets that you have not paid for (fully) and if the the school you went to was public then you were on land you did not pay for and were taught by teachers that you or you parents did not fully pay for.... I assume you understand how this all works right? You are standing on the shoulder of those many people that came before you and paid into the community so that you would have the benefits that you derived from it.
You probably need to pay back in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes etc, before you will reach the point that you begin to pay in more than you have used. Now I do know from reading your posts that you very much intend to reach that point which is great so more power to you.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 96, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 563 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): That's the problem with liberals: they start with the premise that they (or the government) should get the right of first refusal and people should be happy with whatever's left.
Wow. Try reading what I wrote again.
BTW, fiscal conservative here. But cool attempt anyways.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Considering what I might realistically make over the course of a career,
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): I'll never be loyal to any company I don't own, and maybe not even then.
With your attitude, you won't have a career. In fact, it's precisely your attitude towards "loyalty" that caused this whole mess in the first place!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Circuit City could have used a bailout.
Just how much economic damage did Circuit City going out of business do? Did it's failing also cause 10 other large companies to fail?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
Private equity, mutual funds, etc. All those investment vehicles, some of which specialize in turning around failing companies, could have played a part in saving the car companies either as a whole or after a breakup. Nobody was willing to put money into failing companies except the government.
LOL. Sign up for an Economics 201 course next semester, assuming, of course, you've done 101 (which is unlikely considering the crap you just posted).
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): I spend plenty of time looking for jobs, but I can tell you there aren't many out there
Bullshit. Unless you work in construction... wait, nope even that's picking back up. If you're looking for a $25/hr analyst job that doesn't require a college degree, then yeah... not too many of those. Ever consider walking down to the local McDonalds or Subway for some type of income?
I can tell you there are plenty of jobs out there. YOU have to be a little less picky and a little more aggressive to get one. And I guarantee you that if you get off the computer and start walking into places, you'll have a job within two weeks.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 47 Reply 97, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 564 times:
Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94): I am a future aerospace engineer, just like you, but I recognize that defense spending is out of control (look at the F35 program for god's sake), even if that may cost me a job.
I always hate it when someone says "you want ______ elected, he said he's gonna cut the military's budget!" (and I'm in the military.)
Well sadly, I do think our military spending is way out of control, and I vote to make the country do its best, not just for selfish reasons that will benefit me (unfairly)
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 98, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 571 times:
Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94): I don't sit here waiting for the government, or Boeing, or GE to offer me a job, I go out and impress the hell out of every single person I have worked with (and I have had the great fortune to work with some of the top people in both industry and academia).
Trust me, I'm not waiting on anyone. But everyone in the industry has told me that my qualifications are fine and I should easily be hired, yet I'm not. Hell, I hardly get any interviews.
Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94): Aerospace engineering is one of the few fields that is actually looking up, and has been.
People have said that too, just like the hiring wave that's been two months away since June.
Either way, I'm losing patience. If I get burned by this recession I might go back to school and try to make money causing the next one.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 99, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 567 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88): Where were those people? If everyone thought that saving Chrysler and GM with their money was such a great idea, why did the government have to do it at all? They should have been lining up to invest in a sure fire win. They should have been clamoring to get a piece of the dream. They should have been excited for the chance to invest in America! Except that they weren't. Nobody was willing to step in, which is why the government had to. People weren't that interested in saving the car companies with their money, but it's cool with them to use someone else's money.
Why aren't you advocating people lining up to pay for the military if they want it so badly with whatever mechanism you think is applicable to the auto companies?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Considering what I might realistically make over the course of a career,
You actually said that?! A career you don't have?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): with a government more than willing to take over a third of my income,
A third of bugger all is still bugger all my friend.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): when defense actually does need the funds
Prove it.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Like I've said before, who creates more jobs?
I'm not sure but I'll guess its not the one who spends their time whining on the Internet about why some politician is blocking his path to becoming a millionaire, the way you go on you'd think Obama himself was outside your front door with a gun not letting you out.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12556 posts, RR: 64 Reply 100, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 571 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 53): Quoting flymia (Reply 50):Can't tell you know this is a fake news website or not.
I thought it was obvious, but still included the smiley to make it even clearer.
Next time use the instead. The implied that you were laughing as if the story were real.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 65): Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):Bring back the tech boom
Have you looked at Apple lately?
Yes, it's down considerably.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 101, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 578 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98): Trust me, I'm not waiting on anyone. But everyone in the industry has told me that my qualifications are fine and I should easily be hired, yet I'm not. Hell, I hardly get any interviews.
With the attitude you frequently display it is no surprise. It is not just about your academic performance, it is about your social skills. You have to be willing to work well with others, make sacrifices, and actually enjoy what your doing. Its painfully obvious when someone is just in it for themselves and only after money, and that attitude doesn't work in the sciences and engineering (it can work for business). As an engineer you should know it is a collaborative industry.
Saying you are not loyal to a company you don't own is telling them you can't be trusted with industry secrets and that you might bail out on them at any opportunity. There goes their motivation to spend money on you.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 102, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 572 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 95): I assume you understand how this all works right?
Those are all services that are valuable and I'm willing to pay for. Things like bailing out car companies aren't.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 96): In fact, it's precisely your attitude towards "loyalty" that caused this whole mess in the first place!
I don't think so at all. I know that loyalty to any company or institution is purely a one way street. Nobody ever went to a company picnic for the company, they go for the people they work with.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 96): Bullshit. Unless you work in construction... wait, nope even that's picking back up. If you're looking for a $25/hr analyst job that doesn't require a college degree, then yeah... not too many of those.
Somebody tell me where they are then. I'm sure as hell not finding them and I look for hours each day.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 96): Ever consider walking down to the local McDonalds or Subway for some type of income?
Hell no. I've worked too hard for that crap. I spent four years getting a six figure education specifically so I don't have to do that.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 99): Why aren't you advocating people lining up to pay for the military if they want it so badly with whatever mechanism you think is applicable to the auto companies?
Because you just cannot have a privately funded military. They'd just be gangs of thugs. I'm conservative, not an anarchist.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 99): You actually said that?! A career you don't have?
Chalk it up to optimism, which is uncharacteristic for me.
You think ten years of war doesn't take a toll on equipment?
Quoting Polot (Reply 101): As an engineer you should know it is a collaborative industry.
Of course I know that. There's a difference between being loyal to your team and being loyal to your company.
Quoting Polot (Reply 101): Saying you are not loyal to a company you don't own is telling them you can't be trusted with industry secrets and that you might bail out on them at any opportunity.
Loyalty is something beyond not breaching a contract. Loyalty is hanging around and doing things you don't need to do when you know you won't get paid for it. It works great with people, but with companies it's a one way proposition.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7427 posts, RR: 2 Reply 103, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 567 times:
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 23): Well Obama said he wants to go with Clinton era economics. I seem to recall that the rich did just fine with the Clinton era tax rates
It would be great news to drastically, epically slash government spending way down to Clinton era levels. I reckon business leaders would either die of happiness, or crown Obama king for life.
A return to the Clinton years would warm my heart. It just isn't likely to happen. The disease is much further advanced now. People depend on free health care and free food, war-era Pentagon spending and so-called "stimulus needs" throughout the budget. Kind of like why a crack addict keeps smoking crack.
Arguing with today's government about the budget is like trying to reason with a 700-lb man about not eating 40 hamburgers per day. It is manifestly not an argument that you're likely to win, even though you're right. Sometimes people destroy themselves. Maybe it is best look the other way.
Roughly speaking, the federal outlay was around 18% of GDP during the clinton years... Recently, it zoomed to 24%. That's a difference in today's dollars of about 1 trillion dollars _annually_.
Even Mitt Romney wasn't at all so bold as to suggest slashing the govt budget back to Clinton levels. That would be so business friendly, people's heads would explode.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 104, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97): Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94):
I am a future aerospace engineer, just like you, but I recognize that defense spending is out of control (look at the F35 program for god's sake), even if that may cost me a job.
I always hate it when someone says "you want ______ elected, he said he's gonna cut the military's budget!" (and I'm in the military.)
Right?
I'm from a military family myself, and spent many years personally as a DOD civilian. But I recognize that the real budget cuts are going to come from large, expensive things, not little things like earmarks or welfare, which are truly small potatoes. I can't stand it when I suggest that we should reduce military spending (since F-35s are cool as @#$% but aren't going to stop terrorists) and someone responds with:
"well, my father is a Commander in the Navy, and my husband is at sea as a Lieutenant, and he tells me that they don't have enough on the boat when they go. How are you going to tell me that we should cut the military budgets?"
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 105, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 570 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Those are all services that are valuable and I'm willing to pay for.
But what if others aren't willing to pay for it? and others are willing to pay for other things? and they vote with their....Ballot papers?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):
You think ten years of war doesn't take a toll on equipment?
so you would advocate pre 2001 levels of military spending after corrective maintenance of some equipment? Sounds good. You can get civvies to do the corrective maintenance, safer for them and requires less military training so it'll be done quicker and cheaper.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Because you just cannot have a privately funded military. They'd just be gangs of thugs. I'm conservative, not an anarchist.
Just like you can't have lots of other things privately funded.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 106, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 572 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Hell no. I've worked too hard for that crap. I spent four years getting a six figure education specifically so I don't have to do that.
And this is why you'll never find a decent job.
Learn a little humility.
EDIT:
Also, you're not unemployed because there's no jobs, you're unemployed because you are WAY too picky about the job you want.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 107, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Loyalty is something beyond not breaching a contract. Loyalty is hanging around and doing things you don't need to do when you know you won't get paid for it. It works great with people, but with companies it's a one way proposition.
And companies want that. They want employees who are excited about their work and willing to go the extra mile to finish their project even if that means doing uncompensated work, and in the sciences and engineering, if you tuely love what you are doing you will. It is not a one way proposition with companies. In the short term, sure you might get no immediate benefit, but in the long run those are the people who have successful careers and reach the top of the company/industry, and are not standing in the unemployment line when the economy (or industry, or company, or whatever) goes south.
I worked hard and I'm not going to apologize for it or lower myself to a position I'm overqualified for. I don't want to sweep floors or flip burgers so I worked to put myself in a position where I won't have to. Doing menial work would be a waste, for me and the people I'd work for.
I have no interest in trying to cut my losses. If I don't work for a year I don't lose a year of entry level salary, I lose a year of the maximum salary I'll ever make. Consequently, not having work now means the job I do get has to be that much better to make up for it. It's about swinging for the fences.
Quoting Polot (Reply 107): t is not a one way proposition with companies. In the short term, sure you might get no immediate benefit, but in the long run those are the people who have successful careers and reach the top of the company/industry
If they make sure I have a successful career I'll go the extra mile every time. Believe me, I'm not a clock puncher and I can't stand people who are. But none of that would stop a company from laying me off if funding gets cut. I'm not under any illusion that any employer will look out for me, so subsequently I have to look out for me.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 109, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 577 times:
Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94): You sit there complaining how the government takes your money (which, as a student, it takes almost none of. How do I know? I get a refund check too, just like you) but then you can't find an aerospace job because they are slashing defense. Guess what, there are aerospace jobs out there to be had. I am not even looking for a full-time position and have gotten several offers for such. I have grad school lined up and ready to go. You know how? That precious personal responsibility you keep exposing. I don't sit here waiting for the government, or Boeing, or GE to offer me a job, I go out and impress the hell out of every single person I have worked with (and I have had the great fortune to work with some of the top people in both industry and academia). That's how you get a job, you push yourself to do every possible thing you can, to be the best you possibly can. Is it easy? Hell no it isn't, but that's what you do to be the best, and you can and will be rewarded. Aerospace engineering is one of the few fields that is actually looking up, and has been.
*Stands and applauds*
And AKiss20 is a white man. No affirmative action for him at all. Yet somehow, he is a student at one of the most prestigious science and engineering schools in the world and he is doing well and living the American Dream.
How does he do it? He works his butt off. That's how he does it. Sure, he's got some inherent skill and that's not to be discounted, but he's made a decision to make good use of it.
Know how I know that? Because I'm about 10 years older than he is and I did the exact same thing (except not in aerospace engineering; way too much math for me, thank you!). And I'm also a white guy who didn't benefit from one iota of affirmative action.
(I bring up affirmative action not because you did, but because it's also a common gripe of conservatives who seem to be trouble getting into a good school and finding a job. Willing to blame everyone else except themselves.)
I believe in an America where being born to a poor family doesn't damn you from ever being able to get an education. I believe in an America where a bit of bad luck doesn't destroy your entire life. I believe in an America where hard work, not a silver spoon are what make you successful.
That's not the America that I see in the eyes of the GOP.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98): Trust me, I'm not waiting on anyone. But everyone in the industry has told me that my qualifications are fine and I should easily be hired, yet I'm not. Hell, I hardly get any interviews.
But others just like you are, so maybe the problem isn't qualifications. There is actually a SHORTAGE of workers with technical educations at the college level and higher. I don't know what it is because I haven't met you or worked with you, but maybe you need to do some serious self-evaluation to find out why you can't get a job.
It's horribly hypocritical of you to blame that on the government when you claim to be so independent of the government.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 110, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108): But none of that would stop a company from laying me off if funding gets cut. I'm not under any illusion that any employer will look out for me, so subsequently I have to look out for me.
If you are actually good at what you do and are making the company money YOUR funding won't get cut, someone else's will. And if you are truly good at what you do and a company tries and screw you over you run to their competitors, who will gladly accept you with open arms. If you are an excellent worker your employer will look out for you. The defense/aerospace industry is very different from, for example, financial institutions; their entire livelihood depends on the quality of their engineers.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 111, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 571 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109): There is actually a SHORTAGE of workers with technical educations at the college level and higher.
I don't think that's true. I'm hearing about there being well over a thousand applications for some positions. I'm sure I'm near the top of that, but it's hard to think that investing in lottery tickets might have a better payoff.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109): It's horribly hypocritical of you to blame that on the government when you claim to be so independent of the government.
I'm not blaming the government for all of it, there is still a recession after all. Honestly, some of the people telling me that governmental uncertainty is a problem are probably overselling it, but the sequestration thing is there and it's real. There are too many people telling me I should have been hired yesterday and that it's just the market to ignore it, and trust me, I want to. I wish someone would tell me what I need to do differently, but everyone just says to wait. I still don't buy it, but that's what I'm hearing.
But the real problem isn't that the government hasn't provided me a job. That's what happens during recessions. My problem is that they spent billions on saving GM and Chrysler for the explicit purpose of saving jobs. What makes them more important than me? Or the people who worked at Circuit City? Or any number of other, smaller businesses that bit the dust since 2008? That's the problem.
Quoting Polot (Reply 110): And if you are truly good at what you do and a company tries and screw you over you run to their competitors, who will gladly accept you with open arms. If you are an excellent worker your employer will look out for you.
That's what it's all about: making sure to get paid or finding someone who will pay more. To me, loyalty to a company means writing a check. If you want me to work and give an above and beyond effort I'm going to have to be compensated for it. Sacrificing without compensation for the good of a company that won't do the same is probably not a good idea.
[Edited 2012-11-07 17:02:19]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 568 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): That's what it's all about: making sure to get paid or finding someone who will pay more. To me, loyalty to a company means writing a check. If you want me to work and give an above and beyond effort I'm going to have to be compensated for it. Sacrificing without compensation for the good of a company that won't do the same is probably not a good idea.
And if you make that clear to a company you will never get a job. Companies want you to be enthusiastic about them, they don't want people who are only interested in money and personal wealth. If you are just interested in that then, and I am sorry to be the one who breaks this to you, you picked the the wrong industry. Especially if you have no plans to get a graduate degree.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7427 posts, RR: 2 Reply 114, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108): I have no interest in trying to cut my losses. If I don't work for a year I don't lose a year of entry level salary, I lose a year of the maximum salary I'll ever make. Consequently, not having work now means the job I do get has to be that much better to make up for it. It's about swinging for the fences.
Here's one way I'll agree with that. Spending 2 years on a team that respects you & your valuable skills is worth spending 10 years on a team that won't promote you and treats you like shit.
There is no reason to settle for a position that isn't a _pathway_ to what you want. That's not to say you shouldn't carry the water for people you respect. As a young apprentice, you should. And there is honor in that.
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 115, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 566 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): I wish someone would tell me what I need to do differently
I have a masters in aerospace engineering and I work in food manufacturing (and I have great fun), you don't have to silo youself, as an engineer you will have loads and loads of transferable skills. I have been doing some interviewing lately and have noticed (I was also told this when I was looking for a job after uni) that the difference in people who have a job already compared to those who are looking for that perfect job is unbelievable. The interviewer isn't going to say "How do you calculate the centre of pressure for a wing" they are far more likely to say "when have you worked as a team on a project and what did you learn".
If you want advice on looking for jobs I'm sure many on here would help you but make sure you take their advice, even if you don't like it, there are many wise people on these boards. I am not one of those wise folks yet but I hope to be some day.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 116, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 568 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 112): Are you the "I've been on food stamps and welfare and nobody helped me out" guy?
Nope. I don't get food stamps or welfare.
Quoting Polot (Reply 113): And if you make that clear to a company you will never get a job.
Obviously you wouldn't say that in the interview.
Quoting Polot (Reply 113): Especially if you have no plans to get a graduate degree.
I plan to, but I'd be stupid to pay for it myself. At best, I'm buying a cow when I could get milk for free and at worst it's throwing good money after bad.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 114): Spending 2 years on a team that respects you & your valuable skills is worth spending 10 years on a team that won't promote you and treats you like shit.
Exactly. That's one nice thing about school: constant progress. I have a pretty strong "up or out" feeling about anything. Whenever I do something there's kind of a clock counting down until I either move up or lose patience and look to move somewhere else.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 114): That's not to say you shouldn't carry the water for people you respect.
I have no problem doing that for a bit. But it will get old quick.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 117, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 568 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): I don't think that's true. I'm hearing about there being well over a thousand applications for some positions.
You may think that the sky is red, but it's blue. There is a shortage of American workers with scientific educations.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 118, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): I wish someone would tell me what I need to do differently,
You have GOT to be kidding me.
No, really.
Because I alone have posted about a dozen things you need to do differently, and you've shot down EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, claiming it's "beneath you" to have to actually do some work, or that "humility is overrated".
Shut up, and go out and get a job. No whining, no excuses, none of this "overqualified" bullshit. Hell, if you're so smart, start your own business. Why bother working for someone who's just gonna fire you anyways, right?
But seriously, get off your high horse, and go out and get a freakin job. You are not the best engineer this world has ever seen. You are not even close. You are barely in your 20s with a degree that still has wet ink on it. Stop acting like you're God's gift to the engineering world.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 119, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 576 times:
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 115): I have a masters in aerospace engineering and I work in food manufacturing (and I have great fun), you don't have to silo youself, as an engineer you will have loads and loads of transferable skills.
I know that. There are the jobs I've applied, the jobs I'd be really good at, and the jobs I'd actually want. The second group is a subset of the first, and the third a subset of the second.
But there's an enormous disconnect between not getting serious looks and all the people I know in the industry who seem to think that my qualifications are more than sufficient. If one of them said I need another degree or to go take this class or that class, it would be great. But nobody has any reason why I've failed.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 4 Reply 121, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 570 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 112): What the hell?! Are you the "I've been on food stamps and welfare and nobody helped me out" guy?
Ive never been on welfare or food stamps either. My brother and his girlfriend are though. And I see them abusing it too. Looking to sell their food stamp balance for 50 cents on the dollar. Thats why I voted against Obama. My own brother is an abuser so I know most everyone abuses that hand out. I know there some who need it but most abuse that privilege.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8351 posts, RR: 47 Reply 122, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 118): Shut up, and go out and get a job. No whining, no excuses, none of this "overqualified" bullshit.
Unless he's actually told that he's "hopelessly overqualified" for something (I bet I'm not the only one who's heard that), you're a hundred percent correct.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 119): There are the jobs I've applied, the jobs I'd be really good at, and the jobs I'd actually want.
If you really believe that you can make all of these judgements at the age of 16 to 20 (as per your profile) and before you've even started working in the real world, you're delusional. Full stop. I'm several years older than you and keep discovering activities, jobs and opportunities that I didn't even dream of this time last year, or the year before that and so on. This is a world of more than six billion people, for Christ's sake!
[Edited 2012-11-07 17:28:01]
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 123, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 571 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 119): But there's an enormous disconnect between not getting serious looks and all the people I know in the industry who seem to think that my qualifications are more than sufficient. If one of them said I need another degree or to go take this class or that class, it would be great. But nobody has any reason why I've failed.
If your qualifications are sufficient, and they are interviewing for a job, and you are still not getting one offered, then there is an issue with something you are bringing , or are not bringing to the table.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12325 posts, RR: 12 Reply 124, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 572 times:
It is an interesting argument as to why Obama won. Some would say that Romney lost more than Obama won, but Romney did come within 2% of ousting an incumbent and seriously flawed President. The results of this election round suggests Americans want a slightly right-Center government. I have heard and read a number of comments to assemble my opinion her. I must say up front, I am a very loyal Democrat for over 40 years.
To me Romney made too many serious and well documented misstatements (the auto bailout, on FEMA, the '47%') . He had too many very rich, radical right, anti worker and pro-corporate supporters (Koch Brothers, Adelson and others) that turned off some voters. That he woudn't consider moderately higher tax rates on the rich turned off a few more. A few too many other Republicans candidates down-ticket, especially a few Senate candidates that had offensive and wierd ideas turned off some voters, especially women. Latinos rejected Romney and many Republicans over his and the party's harsh immigrations policies.
In the end, enough independent voters felt that Romney, to use a commentator's term, didn't show empathy with the middle classes while Obama could to some extent and were not willing to move from Obama to Romney.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 125, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 117): You may think that the sky is red, but it's blue. There is a shortage of American workers with scientific educations.
I'm just saying what I heard. Job posting was up for a week and over a thousand applications.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 118): Because I alone have posted about a dozen things you need to do differently, and you've shot down EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, claiming it's "beneath you" to have to actually do some work,
Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 118): Hell, if you're so smart, start your own business.
I'd put it at even money that eventually I'll get fed up enough with something and do that. But it's not the best option for a 22 year old.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 118): You are not the best engineer this world has ever seen. You are not even close. You are barely in your 20s with a degree that still has wet ink on it. Stop acting like you're God's gift to the engineering world.
I have no problem proving myself and I'm not afraid to bet on myself, but making sandwiches doesn't prove anything.
Quoting D L X (Reply 120): When I hear this, I hear "I worked hard, and now I'm entitled to the position of my choice."
Why should I be interested in a position that leads nowhere, or at least not where I want to go? That's just a waste of time.
Quoting aloges (Reply 122): If you really believe that you can make all of these judgements at the age of 16 to 20 (as per your profile) and before you've even started working in the real world, you're delusional. Full stop.
I'm not under the impression that I'll have to keep the job forever. I'd probably not keep it more than a few years.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 123): If your qualifications are sufficient, and they are interviewing for a job, and you are still not getting one offered, then there is an issue with something you are bringing , or are not bringing to the table.
I just looked and my interview rate is roughly 3% of my applications. That's what happens when there's a thousand applicants per job.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 124): It is an interesting argument as to why Obama won. Some would say that Romney lost more than Obama won, but Romney did come within 2% of ousting an incumbent and seriously flawed President
I'd say that's accurate. He didn't grab enough of the middle.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 124): To me Romney made too many serious and well documented misstatements (the auto bailout, on FEMA, the '47%') . He had too many very rich, radical right, anti worker and pro-corporate supporters (Koch Brothers, Adelson and others) that turned off some voters.
He focused too much on things that weren't the economy.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 5 Reply 126, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 571 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): The idea that one of the purposes of the goverment is to create jobs by buying/subsidizing stuff, including military procurement, is a perversion
The harsh reality is that government spending generates jobs in the private sector. Doesn't matter if it is a bridge or battleship.
What I don't know, but would love to see, is how many tax dollars are received from $1 in government spending? I'm talking about both direct and indirect tax revenues. My bet is that it is pretty much a wash when you get down to it.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): In fact I am on record here of proposing that the US Air Force buy some EuroFighters, Gripens and Sukhois, in order to shake up Lockheed and Boeing from their complacency.
That is a perversion. I doubt you'd be willing to have your taxes increased to cover the shortfall from Lockheed and Boeing and their employees and their suppliers. I'm certainly not.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73): Now tax deductions and rules which allow you to get a larger tax refund than the income tax you paid in, 100% that is a bribe - welfare handouts in disguise.
I'll assume you are talking about the GOP Socialist $1,000 per child per year handout.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others? Seems like the government picking winners and losers.
Actually, the government can, at times, decide to act to save jobs, or major companies. They did it with Chrysler before. Loan guarantees and a nice, plump $350 million PROFIT for the $1.5 Billion guarantee. Looking at the subsequent man years of employment and tax revenues that guarantee delivered it seems to have been a very wise decision - regardless of who much the purist conservatives screamed.
Looks like we are seeing the same benefits starting to come in from President Obama's actions - again leaving the purist conservatives flopping around in misery.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): So what about GM and Chrysler makes their employees so damn special that my money has to save their jobs and not others? Seems like the government picking winners and losers.
It does kill conservatives to see these bailouts be so successful. They were spewing back in the late 790s when the government guaranteed and they spewed when the government made a $350 million profit.
Personally I consider it good government when efforts are made to retina the general welfare of a area of the country that would be hit with hard unemployment without intervention at some level or other.
JakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1247 posts, RR: 2 Reply 127, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 118): But seriously, get off your high horse, and go out and get a freakin job. You are not the best engineer this world has ever seen. You are not even close. You are barely in your 20s with a degree that still has wet ink on it. Stop acting like you're God's gift to the engineering world.
Then you fail to understand the true situation. I personally know 7 out of 10 people with degrees that are either unemployed or underemployed. They are working extremely hard at finding employment but are coming up short. So, here's the rob: many of you say get an education to get a well paying job, then when somebody complains when they have the education and are unable to get a job, you state underemployment. If I may ask, how does this logic work? What was the point of obtaining a degree?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 119): But there's an enormous disconnect between not getting serious looks and all the people I know in the industry who seem to think that my qualifications are more than sufficient. If one of them said I need another degree or to go take this class or that class, it would be great. But nobody has any reason why I've failed.
Most likely lack of experience. Fresh out of school and a big question mark. I know it isn't right, but when there are many more experienced applicants, it makes the hiring process that much harder.
Quoting D L X (Reply 120): When I hear this, I hear "I worked hard, and now I'm entitled to the position of my choice."
But you're also saying, "Working hard will achieve nothing."
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 124): In the end, enough independent voters felt that Romney, to use a commentator's term, didn't show empathy with the middle classes while Obama could to some extent and were not willing to move from Obama to Romney.
Personally, aside from my earlier post, overall, he wasn't Charismatic. He took a stance of talking down to you rather than at you.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 128, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 562 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
Because people that are older, wiser, and have more experience than you or your classmates are telling you to. But you're far too arrogant to accept that.
I'm not trying to argue the point with you. I, and others, are literally telling you how to be successful, and you want to argue about it! As if you somehow have some magical insight into getting a job that the rest of us peasants don't have. You simply cannot admit that you are making mistakes, and thus you will never fix those mistakes and improve.
Just because you throw money at something doesn't entitle you avoid having to temporarily do work that is "beneath" you.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): I just looked and my interview rate is roughly 3% of my applications. That's what happens when there's a thousand applicants per job.
No, that's what happens when you send out an application and don't follow up on it. That's what happens when you don't network and just think that hiring managers are going to be impressed with your self-described skill and an expensive degree but no job history and zero real-world experience in anything.
And when you do get the rare interview, your complete and utter arrogance, self-centerdness, lack of loyalty, and sense of entitlement shows all over you, and they know that you're not the kind of person they want.
Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 127): many of you say get an education to get a well paying job
It definitely is a prerequisite, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing you need. What BMI has is a good (if horrendously overpriced) education, but he is severely lacking in both motivation, networking, and general people skills. Also:
Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 127):
But you're also saying, "Working hard will achieve nothing."
No he's not. The part, "I worked hard", is sarcasm. Just because you think you've worked hard doesn't mean you have And what we're trying to explain to BMI is that not only has he not worked hard enough, he refuses to work anymore because HE feels he's done enough.
And then when he doesn't get his dream job, he comes to a thread like this and blames it all on Obama and his handling of the economy. His criticism of the bailouts is just a reflection of his own failures and frustrations that nobody is ever going to bail him out.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19686 posts, RR: 56 Reply 129, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 558 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88): Unemployed, and from what I've heard, a lot of it has to do with governmental wrangling over budgets and a large swath of politicians looking to slash defense spending while bailing out companies that have legitimately run themselves out of business.
Okay, so you're willing to put some responsibility for your bad situation on the government. If you should manage to land a job in the defense field, would you be willing to give the government some of the credit?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): I don't expect it to be supported as a jobs program, it should be supported because it's needed.
We don't need massive military spending right now. And we certainly can't afford it right now.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): I don't need the government to provide everything, but it's ridiculous to see them taking care of pretty much every group but mine.
There are a lot of groups of people the government isn't taking care of. That's life.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Like I've said before, who creates more jobs? Trailer trash single moms or people with engineering degrees?
Do car companies not employ lots of people with engineering degrees? You've catalogued the government support in that sector, why not try for a job there?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
Because sometimes that's what people have to do when things don't go exactly their way but they still have to make a living. That's reality. You certainly wouldn't be the only one in that situation.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 130, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 559 times:
Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 127): Most likely lack of experience. Fresh out of school and a big question mark. I know it isn't right, but when there are many more experienced applicants, it makes the hiring process that much harder
That's what seems to be the case.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): I'm not trying to argue the point with you. I, and others, are literally telling you how to be successful, and you want to argue about it!
Making sandwiches or sweeping floors will do literally nothing to make me successful or get me closer to where I want to be. I could have been doing that for four years already and not have spend a boatload of money.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): No, that's what happens when you send out an application and don't follow up on it.
It's all online now, so there's usually nobody to follow up with.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): And when you do get the rare interview, your complete and utter arrogance, self-centerdness, lack of loyalty, and sense of entitlement shows all over you, and they know that you're not the kind of person they want.
I'm not dumb enough to show it, but I'm not about to do some "aw shucks, I'm just happy to be here act" to get a job. It's not about being at the game, it's about being in the game.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): What BMI has is a good (if horrendously overpriced) education, but he is severely lacking in both motivation, networking, and general people skills. Also:
I have the motivation. I'm always one of the first in - last out types. And now I have more motivation than ever to make people who doubted me look stupid. Networking I'll admit is a necessary evil. It's the stupidest thing ever, but I do it anyway. But, when people tell me my qualifications are great yet there's no jobs for me, it's utterly pointless.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): And what we're trying to explain to BMI is that not only has he not worked hard enough, he refuses to work anymore because HE feels he's done enough.
All of the people I've talked to in industry say I've done plenty. I went to school, I got the grades, I got the degree, I got other experience and it's all worthless. I did the stuff I was supposed to do and got nothing for it. My degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on at this point.
I want to say that it was worth it, but if anyone were to make a case to the contrary, I couldn't offer a single number to back up my point.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): And then when he doesn't get his dream job, he comes to a thread like this and blames it all on Obama and his handling of the economy. His criticism of the bailouts is just a reflection of his own failures and frustrations that nobody is ever going to bail him out.
I never blamed the whole thing on Obama. Recessions happen, that's just part of the deal. But, I'm still wondering what the GM employees did to make them more worthy than myself or any number of other workers.
Quoting Mir (Reply 129): If you should manage to land a job in the defense field, would you be willing to give the government some of the credit?
Sure, why wouldn't I?
Quoting Mir (Reply 129): There are a lot of groups of people the government isn't taking care of. That's life.
So what did the GM and Chrysler people do to earn their bailout?
Quoting Mir (Reply 129): You've catalogued the government support in that sector, why not try for a job there?
You think I haven't?
[Edited 2012-11-07 19:03:25]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 131, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 560 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
Because it shows that you'll do what is necessary to get the job done — even if it's just working an interim job to gain experience and some money in the door while the 'right' job comes along. In addition, employers want to hire people who already have a job, no matter what that job is, not someone who is just looking for a job.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 123): If your qualifications are sufficient, and they are interviewing for a job, and you are still not getting one offered, then there is an issue with something you are bringing , or are not bringing to the table.
I've been hired for every job where I've been called up for an interview, and meet the qualifications. The feedback I get is that it's due to how I answer goal-setting questions. "What's your goal in this job?" I answer: "To understand as quickly as possible what the priorities are, then perform my roll to get them done in a manner that allows me to walk out the door every night with a sense of accomplishment, and walk back in the next morning with a clean conscience." The interview is pretty much over at that time. I've got the job. Hasn't failed me yet.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 132, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 559 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): And then when he doesn't get his dream job, he comes to a thread like this and blames it all on Obama and his handling of the economy.
Exactly.
I'm curious who's bankrolling this unemployment of his. If I were his parents and was giving him money to "search" for a job, I'd cut off funding.
Isn't personal responsibility a big conservative mantra? (Yes it is.)
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19686 posts, RR: 56 Reply 133, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 557 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): Making sandwiches or sweeping floors will do literally nothing to make me successful or get me closer to where I want to be.
Apart from giving you work experience.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): So what did the GM and Chrysler people do to earn their bailout?
What has the defense industry done to earn extra defense spending?
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4716 posts, RR: 13 Reply 134, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 563 times:
Quoting pu (Thread starter): I really hope America gets its fiscal house in order and do wish the great American people a successful future!
Pu
My spin in no particular order:
1. President Obama is a likable guy and the first African American POTUS and is young (as President's go)
2. Incumbency usually has it's advantages on retaining office in the White House with the exception of "Jihad Carter and Daddy Bush in my lifetime.
3. Paul Ryan though young and charismatic is Tea Party and way to the right.
4. Romney though likable came across as Ronald Reagan II but from rich folk stock.
5. GOP ran on same platform which ill suits many minorities, young people and working folk at least perception wise.
6. Draconian ideas regarding alternative energy. Sure it's still oil but GOP tends to be the party of big oil/big money.
7. Bad timing on Mitt's part. Statement about FEMA and the 47%.
8. 8 Years of George W.Bush!
9. Many feeling economy is at least stable.
10. Turn out! Before Clinton many of the groups that skew Democratic were un-registered and those registered did not turn out and vote.
11. Perception that Romney is for the rich and by the wealthy.
12. President Obama and Chris Christi working together and responding in regard to hurricane Sandy, A new and improved FEMA. Contrast this to the aftermath of Katrina.
13. Covertly: GOP Presidents of recent era have tended to nominate extreme right wing Supreme Justice candidates.
Think of Scalia and Clarence Thomas and many of the ones NOT confirmed by Congress. Nixon had two of those back to back in the day.
14. The gender gap. Many women felt the GOP would not serve their interests. And intrude when it comes to their bodies. Abortion issue.
15. Bad luck that some of the GOP candidates put their Brooks Brother's shoes up their asses with those asinine comments regarding rape.
16. Did I mention 8 years of "W"? This gets an honorable mention a second time.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 135, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 561 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 131): Because it shows that you'll do what is necessary to get the job done — even if it's just working an interim job to gain experience and some money in the door while the 'right' job comes along.
Sweeping floors does nothing to prove anything except that I could sweep floors. Experience doing something menial is a waste of time.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 131): employers want to hire people who already have a job, no matter what that job is, not someone who is just looking for a job.
I've heard this before, but nobody has ever given a good reason why. I'm curious, not that it would make me willing to sweep floors.
Quoting D L X (Reply 132): I'm curious who's bankrolling this unemployment of his. If I were his parents and was giving him money to "search" for a job, I'd cut off funding.
Some savings from my parents and some of my own. I want to stretch it as far as possible because I don't just need to last until I get an offer but until I get a good offer.
Quoting Mir (Reply 133): What has the defense industry done to earn extra defense spending?
They do have to bid for work (usually, I'm not a fan of no-bid contracts). But defense spending is something that has to be done.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 136, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 565 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): Making sandwiches or sweeping floors will do literally nothing to make me successful
And I've been telling you it will help for about 3 hours now, and you are STILL IGNORING IT.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
It's all online now, so there's usually nobody to follow up with.
No, it's not "all online" now. Make phone calls, show up to the building, show them that you're interested. Otherwise, you're just one of a thousand people that was bothered enough to click a mouse.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): I'm not dumb enough to show it, but I'm not about to do some "aw shucks, I'm just happy to be here act" to get a job. It's not about being at the game, it's about being in the game.
Blah, blah, blah. Meaningless crap designed to sell tapes.
No you don't. You don't even have enough motivation to get any other job other than the one you feel you're entitled to.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): And now I have more motivation than ever to make people who doubted me look stupid
Trust me, by the time you're done with this mess (and if you come out ahead), you'll look back and say "wow, they really were right".
Nobody is doubting that you CAN do it, we just know that it's not going to happen with your current attitude.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): Networking I'll admit is a necessary evil. It's the stupidest thing ever,
Seems to me like you're slightly anti-social. Like I said, your disdain for your fellow man and the entitlement that goes with it shows all over.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): All of the people I've talked to in industry say I've done plenty. I went to school, I got the grades, I got the degree, I got other experience
They're either stupid or lying (or you're lying). You refuse to do anything more than to browse Monster.com all day in hopes someone will pick you. That's not doing plenty; that's doing nothing.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): I did the stuff I was supposed to do
NO YOU HAVEN'T. You did a lot, but you refuse to diversify your skills with any other type of employment, and you refuse to network. No, LinkedIn does not count.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): But, I'm still wondering what the GM employees did to make them more worthy than myself or any number of other workers.
They didn't do anything. The bailout wasn't to save their jobs (although that was a politically helpful side-effect), it was to save dozens of other companies from folding and losing the market billions of dollars. It had nothing to do with the employees (like you said, plenty of other businesses were allowed to go under with hundreds of thousands of workers).
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 137, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 558 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135): I've heard this before, but nobody has ever given a good reason why. I'm curious, not that it would make me willing to sweep floors.
It shows that you're willing to do what needs getting done, even if what needs getting done is simply earning a paycheck.
Maverick623 and others have been giving you excellent advice. My lord, if I was your employer and you said the same thing to me when I asked you to do something so a project could move forward, then got the attitude you're giving to posters here with good advice, you'd get the pink slip pronto. No question about it. Harsh maybe, but truthful.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7427 posts, RR: 2 Reply 138, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 559 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 137):
It shows that you're willing to do what needs getting done, even if what needs getting done is simply earning a paycheck.
Cynically speaking, sometimes a hiring manager wants an obedient little slave. (edit: speaking to BMI) You may not fit the bill. But at least act like you painfully and ridiculously humble, in order to _get the job_. It may also be seen as manipulative. But, it's better than being a young know-it-all, which is unattractive. This is social politics. Not a meritocracy. Think high school.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 139, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 563 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 136): No you don't. You don't even have enough motivation to get any other job other than the one you feel you're entitled to.
I have the motivation to work for the job I want and not stop short of that or allow myself to be detoured.
I'll happily admit that there are a hell of a lot of people who annoy me to no end. But that hasn't kept me from working with quite a few of them.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 136): You did a lot, but you refuse to diversify your skills with any other type of employment, and you refuse to network.
Does cleaning things really count as diversifying skills? I can fold laundry with the best of them, if that matters.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 136): They're either stupid or lying (or you're lying).
I'm starting to get that idea. People might just be blowing smoke at me, if there's a class I should have taken but didn't I'd much prefer they told me. I doubt that my lack of experience washing dishes is what's holding me back.
I agree completely. LinkedIn is just about the most worthless thing ever. Ask for entry level jobs, get emails about jobs for people with 20 years experience in Bangalore.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 136): The bailout wasn't to save their jobs (although that was a politically helpful side-effect), it was to save dozens of other companies from folding and losing the market billions of dollars.
But, weren't there plenty of other companies pulled under by those that were allowed to go under? You could make that argument for any number of companies.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 137): It shows that you're willing to do what needs getting done, even if what needs getting done is simply earning a paycheck.
I happen to have enough savings that I don't need to lower myself to that level just do get a paycheck. It doesn't need getting done.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 137): My lord, if I was your employer and you said the same thing to me when I asked you to do something so a project could move forward,
If I was actually getting compensated and it would actually move the project forward, I'd be perfectly inclined to do it. But getting a menial job just to kill time doesn't move anything forward.
[Edited 2012-11-07 19:44:55]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19686 posts, RR: 56 Reply 140, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 561 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135): Sweeping floors does nothing to prove anything except that I could sweep floors.
In other words, prove that you're not too proud to do things that you don't find particularly rewarding but that need to be done. If you think that's meaningless, there's a rude awakening waiting for you.
I'm trained as a pilot, not a cabin cleaner. Yet I still pull out a vacuum from time to time and give the cabin the best cleaning I can give it with the tools available in the time allotted. Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it prove that I have good flying skills? Not in the least. Does it show that I'm willing to go the extra mile for my company? Yes. Is it rewarding? Surprisingly, yes - there is some satisfaction in a job well done, no matter how menial.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 141, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 558 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 140): In other words, prove that you're not too proud to do things that you don't find particularly rewarding but that need to be done. If you think that's meaningless, there's a rude awakening waiting for you.
Sweeping floors if you're a pilot is going an extra mile. Sweeping floors if you're a janitor is just doing menial, unskilled work.
I have no problem going the extra mile in a decent job since it usually pays off in the end, or so I've found. Just doing average work as a janitor would be a waste of time.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 142, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 561 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141): Just doing average work as a janitor would be a waste of time.
This. This is why you don't have a job. This attitude probably comes across in interviews.
What you asked me to explain in your previous post you should have learned in any job-seeking class. It's becoming patently obvious you want to do this your own way, not the successful way. Good luck with that.
NWAdeicer From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 154 posts, RR: 1 Reply 143, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 561 times:
BMI727,
Seriously, you/re parents are bankrolling you while you sit at home waiting for your dream job call? If you were my kid your ass would be coming home smelling like fries or you would be apartment hunting.
You have absolutely no clue about the working world, it's painfully obvious from reading your posts. You are going to sit there and tell me that using a broom/mop whatever is not benefitting you in any way? Working as a supervisor in toys at WalMart wouldn't help? You don't think that doing these "below you" jobs can't be turned into a positive thing in an interview or on a resume? It really doesn't sound like you have much else going on during the day, or night, for that matter. Don't you have just a little bit of guilt knowing that there are jobs out there but you would rather have your parents help you financially because these jobs are blue collar?
As others have stated you need to learn the art of talking, meeting people, asking questions. How are you going to find out that one guy down the hall, he has a friend or cousin, uncle, you name it, who has connections in the field you are wanting to make your millions. Your not going to because you refuse to lower yourself to working any entry level position, anywhere.
I'll give you a little story. Many years ago I wanted to work for this company, badly. Applied, the usual application then waiting game. After about a month I did some research and found the name of the supervisor. I got out of work at 7:00 am and drove 90 miles to the company HQ. I asked to speak to the supervisor and was told she was in meetings all day, I asked if I could wait in case she had a few minutes. I sat at that chair from 9:00 until 4:30 when she finally came out. She was stunned to learn I had worked all night and waited all day to talk to her. I was called two days later for an interview, one month later I was working for them. In the position I wanted.
You need to step off this pedestal your on, the view doesn't sound like it's to great up there.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 144, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 571 times:
— Back on topic —
Bill O'Reilly on why Romney lost:
1) Because Romney didn't challenge Obama on Libya in the third debate. If he had, the media would have been forced to challenge the President on his lack of leadership.
2) Hurricane Sandy kept Romney off the front pages for the all-important 5 days prior to the election. O'Reilly claims that in exit polls, 42% of voters cited how Obama handled the aftermath of Sandy as an important part of deciding which candidate to endorse with their vote.
3) Romney didn't bring any sense of urgency to the table while presenting the dangers of Obama continuing in office. Romney should have positioned issues in a way that casting a vote for Obama would scare the living daylights out of people.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 145, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 567 times:
Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 143): Seriously, you/re parents are bankrolling you while you sit at home waiting for your dream job call?
Nobody's bankrolling me. I have savings, although I live with my parents.
Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 143): You are going to sit there and tell me that using a broom/mop whatever is not benefitting you in any way? Working as a supervisor in toys at WalMart wouldn't help? You don't think that doing these "below you" jobs can't be turned into a positive thing in an interview or on a resume?
No, there's nothing positive about that. It's just killing time to maybe get a job that I could be getting anyway, since menial jobs don't add anything substantive to my skills.
Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 143): Don't you have just a little bit of guilt knowing that there are jobs out there but you would rather have your parents help you financially because these jobs are blue collar?
It might come down to a situation where I have to take a blue collar job that I hate. And every minute of it will suck horrendously. But, until that time comes, I'm willing to be my savings on my skills and training. And, if it looks like that might happen, more education is probably a much better option. If I strike out, I'd better come back with a bigger bat.
Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 143): Your not going to because you refuse to lower yourself to working any entry level position, anywhere.
I'm more than willing to do entry level work in my field. I have no interest in menial entry level work that's below my qualification level. I didn't put in the time, money and effort to flip burgers.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 144): Romney didn't bring any sense of urgency to the table while presenting the dangers of Obama continuing in office. Romney should have positioned issues in a way that casting a vote for Obama would scare the living daylights out of people.
He tried with Iran, but his ideas were the same as Obama's.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2084 posts, RR: 0 Reply 146, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 563 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
Um, to earn some money? And not leech off the government / parents / savings which is what you are bemoaning the government would do to you if and when you get a job. A little money while you search for that dream job is better than nothing. Its hardly a big deal to quit your Subway job tomorrow when you have a better alternate.
Quoting D L X (Reply 120): These are the most fun interviews for me to conduct because I already know the outcome when this person shows up in my office.
Yep, can smell em when they come through the door.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 119): But nobody has any reason why I've failed
Seriously, with this kind of attitude, I would never hire you. If it came down to a choice of two out of a 1000 applicants, even if your qualifications were better, I would go for the team player and the one who is going to show some respect for management, co-workers & society in general each time.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116): I have no problem doing that for a bit. But it will get old quick.
See above - another lesson to be learned. Even the POTUS has to kiss ass. Even the president of Boeing has to kiss ass. How much higher are you expecting to get?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116): Quoting Polot (Reply 113):
And if you make that clear to a company you will never get a job.
Obviously you wouldn't say that in the interview.
You dont need to, anyone with any intuition can tell right away.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108): I don't work for a year I don't lose a year of entry level salary, I lose a year of the maximum salary I'll ever make
Rubbish, you dont work for a year, you get no money. Entry level salary is better than no salary and its going to be a loooooong time before you get "maximum" salary whatever you think that is.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Loyalty is something beyond not breaching a contract. Loyalty is hanging around and doing things you don't need to do when you know you won't get paid for it. It works great with people, but with companies it's a one way proposition.
Wow Its very much a two way street. I have so much knowledge of the client base and pricing structure, if I went to a competitor I would close down my branch office. My company is very loyal to me and they do that extra for me - which means I have no problem doing the same for them.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): My problem is that they spent billions on saving GM and Chrysler for the explicit purpose of saving jobs. What makes them more important than me?
Nothing if you had a job which happened to be at GM or Chrysler. Not only did it save the government from the cost of mass unemployment benefits, the knock on effect of closure of dozens of suppliers, think of all the knock on effects of those 10's of 1000's of redundancies not being able to pay mortgages, credit cards, leases etc etc etc. Its quite clear why the government made the decision they did. It will cost you less tax money in the long run.
Seriously, quit contributing to the mess the USA is in and make sandwiches or something and learn some team work with others in between interviews. Even being able to say in an interview you are working - regardless of where - is better than saying you are unemployed as it shows you have some other skills other than your qualifications and will always put you in a stronger position to a potential employer, no ifs or buts. I would ask you why you are not willing to work part time or something and I would find out the real reason and you would immediately seal your fate as a potential employee of mine. You are just hi-lighting to us the problems that any government has to deal with before they have to worry about Iran or hurricanes or budgets for F35's, this is not a personal attack, you are asking for help and adavice (finally) and shooting it all down in flames. Truth hurts more than love my friend
As to Obama, up here Romney may have got the nod due to the Keystone pipeline, but other than that, from everyone I have spoken to he is viewed as a complete buffoon and will be GWB all over again. I would hazard a guess that a sizeable percentage who voted for him anyway did so because of religious views, just the fact he is a Republican or just that they dont like Obama personally for whatever reason. For those who oppose Obamacare, it works pretty well in other civilized countries. Dont bother coming up here to have your ops done you cant afford at home either...
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 147, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 564 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 146): Its hardly a big deal to quit your Subway job tomorrow when you have a better alternate.
Of course if they ask I'd have to tell them that I'm out the door as soon as I get a better offer. I know better than to lie.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 146): I would go for the team player and the one who is going to show some respect for management, co-workers & society in general each time.
I have no problem being part of or leading a team. But if my role on the team is to clean up or file things, I need to look for a different team. And if I go too long without in increase in compensation or responsibility, it's time to look for a different team.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 146): See above - another lesson to be learned. Even the POTUS has to kiss ass. Even the president of Boeing has to kiss ass.
I can kiss ass, but there better be a good payoff. My education afforded me plenty of opportunity to be under the thumb of someone less intelligent than I whom I had to play nice with. And then tell everyone else how dumb they were when they weren't around.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 146): Entry level salary is better than no salary and its going to be a loooooong time before you get "maximum" salary whatever you think that is.
Of course it will be a long time, but entry level pay doesn't compensate for time before I get the job. They won't pay me more for spending time at Subway or Walmart, ergo, that doesn't help me get anyway. Idleness now is money lost off the top, not the bottom. Hence, if I can't have a job now, the better course is to get more schooling to make it up over time.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 146): My company is very loyal to me and they do that extra for me - which means I have no problem doing the same for them.
As long as my employers do enough extra for me, they'll have nothing to worry about. But staying in return for compensation isn't what I would count as true loyalty. Loyalty would be hanging around even if you get nothing extra for it or could do better elsewhere. Obviously no company is going to do that for me, they'll only keep me around if I'm giving them something, so it only follows that I'd only keep them around if they give me something. And I have no problems being loyal to the people I work with. There are people I went to school with for whom I'll have a spot on my team if I get any say in the matter and they want it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
cws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 2 Reply 148, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 556 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): Why the hell would I take one of the jobs that I worked hard and spent a lot of money to avoid having to do?
To be consistent. As you have ranted repeatedly about Social Security - if people are imprudent with their investments, then they should work at whatever job they can find until they drop dead. Take your own medicine and work at whatever job you can get. Put up or shut up, at long last.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128): And when you do get the rare interview, your complete and utter arrogance, self-centerdness, lack of loyalty, and sense of entitlement shows all over you, and they know that you're not the kind of person they want.
BMI727, you are obviously an intelligent person. But Maverick623 has described EXACTLY how you come across.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): I don't need the government to provide everything, but it's ridiculous to see them taking care of pretty much every group but mine.
Then you need to find another group. After all, you are the poster child for social Darwinism. You "talk the talk" over and over again. Perhaps you should "walk the walk" for once.
Quoting Mir (Reply 129): Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92):
I don't need the government to provide everything, but it's ridiculous to see them taking care of pretty much every group but mine.
There are a lot of groups of people the government isn't taking care of. That's life.
And as you, BMI727, have said over and over again, if a person or group falls victim to the vagaries of fortune, that is not your problem. You claim to be a victim of circumstances beyond your control. Take your own advice, get over yourself, and adapt.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): All of the people I've talked to in industry say I've done plenty. I went to school, I got the grades, I got the degree, I got other experience and it's all worthless. I did the stuff I was supposed to do and got nothing for it. My degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on at this point.
Then be creative - direct your talents in another direction.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 149, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 562 times:
Quoting cws818 (Reply 149): To be consistent. As you have ranted repeatedly about Social Security - if people are imprudent with their investments, then they should work at whatever job they can find until they drop dead. Take your own medicine and work at whatever job you can get. Put up or shut up, at long last.
I'm not close to retirement at all. Sure I'll have to save a little more later to make up for what I don't save now, but so be it. If I were sixty, I'd have a lot less flexibility.
Quoting cws818 (Reply 149): And as you, BMI727, have said over and over again, if a person or group falls victim to the vagaries of fortune, that is not your problem. You claim to be a victim of circumstances beyond your control. Take your own advice, get over yourself, and adapt.
That's fine. But here's the thing: the people who worked at GM and Chrysler were victims of circumstances beyond their control (although maybe not their union's), but the government was right there to save the company. Not everyone who worked at Enron was corrupt, but again, no bailout.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
cws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 2 Reply 151, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 559 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 150): Quoting cws818 (Reply 149):
To be consistent. As you have ranted repeatedly about Social Security - if people are imprudent with their investments, then they should work at whatever job they can find until they drop dead. Take your own medicine and work at whatever job you can get. Put up or shut up, at long last.
I'm not close to retirement at all. Sure I'll have to save a little more later to make up for what I don't save now, but so be it. If I were sixty, I'd have a lot less flexibility.
Do you not understand that the principle is the same? You should follow your own "logic". Put up or shut up. Stop whining, stop blaming the government, stop claiming to be a victim - do something instead.
pellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1845 posts, RR: 8 Reply 152, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 562 times:
Wow. I was going to post something...but you guys just beat the s*** out of BMI727. I understand where both teams are coming from. Wow.
pellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1845 posts, RR: 8 Reply 153, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 565 times:
I actually have to respect BMI727 when he says that he wouldn't take a job beneath him. We probably haven't agreed much before, but I respect that position since I've been in it. But I also started my own compan(ies), and never looked back. Life is so much better being a small businessman....an employer....not an employee. In my perspective only... I'm a very independent person, so I don't care to slave away in a menial job either...I understand that POV.
Unfortunately, even though if you're very intelligent, sometimes...many times you have to slave away. They call it "fake it until you make it". It's aggravating for sure, but necessary for self continuance. Eh...just a part of life really. A lot of people that you are fake around, or have to be fake for, are useful when you need them to do something for you. Part of the game... It's the same in politics as well.
InsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 193 posts, RR: 0 Reply 154, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 555 times:
by the way, the Tea Party is already bound to take over the GOP entirely.
Their argument is as follows:
We nominated 2 moderates (McCain and Romney) and both lost. We need a starch conservative, true to the bone to get the majority again....... Good luck with that!
Please nominate someone like Santorum or Perry in 2016 and you'll lose even bigger.....
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 155, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 554 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130): Making sandwiches or sweeping floors will do literally nothing to make me successful or get me closer to where I want to be.
You show it to interviewers without even knowing it.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135): Sweeping floors does nothing to prove anything except that I could sweep floors. Experience doing something menial is a waste of time.
No it isn't
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 139): Does cleaning things really count as diversifying skills?
You misunderstand completely.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 139): I happen to have enough savings that I don't need to lower myself to that level
When you meet the cleaners on the shopfloor that attitude will come out and the interviewers can see it, not good.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 145): No, there's nothing positive about that. It's just killing time to maybe get a job that I could be getting anyway, since menial jobs don't add anything substantive to my skills.
*Sigh*
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 145): more education is probably a much better option
No, you have enough education that isn't what is holding you back from getting the job you want.
There are universal skills/competencies that you will find in every workplace and interviewers will look for evidence of these skills/competencies. Employers will not care at all if your examples of working in a team or dealing with a difficult person or having to show leadership come from working at subway. Infact if you are going for a graduate level job they would kind of expect you not to have been working in a full proffessional environment. They will, however, expect to see a full resume with a good explanation of why any employment/education gaps exist, you are going to have to think of a damn compelling lie and be a good actor if your real reason is that you don't want to come accross how you have on here.
Do you truly want advice BMI or do you just want us to appease you?
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 156, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 547 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88): Nobody was willing to step in, which is why the government had to.
That's the exact point, one you keep ignoring. The banking system was not functioning. Today it is, and AA is in bankruptcy, and no government bailout is happening.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Circuit City could have used a bailout.
Right, but their downfall didn't cause the downfall of other companies, or put so many people on unemployment that the system could not cope with it, nor did it cause the balance sheets of banks to crumble due to exposure to Circuit City or its integrated supply chain (which it had next to none of).
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Companies need to be put on notice that there will be no more bailouts and their problems will not become taxpayer problems.
Ask AA if they've gotten the message or not.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Private equity, mutual funds, etc. All those investment vehicles, some of which specialize in turning around failing companies, could have played a part in saving the car companies either as a whole or after a breakup. Nobody was willing to put money into failing companies except the government.
No one was willing to put money in anything other than gold bars!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111): My problem is that they spent billions on saving GM and Chrysler for the explicit purpose of saving jobs. What makes them more important than me? Or the people who worked at Circuit City? Or any number of other, smaller businesses that bit the dust since 2008? That's the problem.
You may have noticed that the practice hasn't continued since 2008, have you not? This isn't Air India or Alitalia we're talking about, although you keep trying to make it sound like it is. As above, both parties and both administrations looked at the situation and decided that the cost of the auto industry failing was too much for the system to absorb at that point in time, right after Leehman was allowed to fail. THATS what is so unique about the situation.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 124): In the end, enough independent voters felt that Romney, to use a commentator's term, didn't show empathy with the middle classes while Obama could to some extent and were not willing to move from Obama to Romney.
The interesting thing to me is that exit polls showed that voters felt Romney and Obama were equally suited to deal with the economy, so Romney totally failed to make the point that he was the one who could best lead the US to recovery. I think a lot of that is that the US electorate has lost faith in trickle down economics.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 124): It is an interesting argument as to why Obama won. Some would say that Romney lost more than Obama won, but Romney did come within 2% of ousting an incumbent and seriously flawed President. The results of this election round suggests Americans want a slightly right-Center government.
Not sure what to make of it. I feel it is a lot about the candidate, and in general Romney came across as wooden and too beholden to his own, the 1%ers. I think people felt Obama is more open minded and less likely to commit to war.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135): Sweeping floors does nothing to prove anything except that I could sweep floors. Experience doing something menial is a waste of time.
Sweeping the floors shows you will do whatever it takes to get the job done. People don't want to work with a prima-donna jerk who finds certain tasks beneath them.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135):
I've heard this before, but nobody has ever given a good reason why. I'm curious, not that it would make me willing to sweep floors.
My first job I was a salaried engineer working in a union shop. The union went out on strike. Guess what I got to do? Work in the factory, assemble things, and at the end of the day, sweep the floor!
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 144): Because Romney didn't challenge Obama on Libya in the third debate. If he had, the media would have been forced to challenge the President on his lack of leadership.
Wrong. Everyone could tell that the GOP was milking Benghazi for political gain, and it was turning off the electorate.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 144): Hurricane Sandy kept Romney off the front pages for the all-important 5 days prior to the election.
Probably a factor.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 145): Nobody's bankrolling me. I have savings, although I live with my parents.
Paying room and board I hope, for a fiercely independent guy like yourself I'd hope you're not dragging down mommy and daddy's savings.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147): I have no problem being part of or leading a team. But if my role on the team is to clean up or file things, I need to look for a different team.
It won't be, just like Mir wasn't hired to vacuum the plane, he was hired to fly it, and his skills and his pay reflect that. However if you want to be hired, you will have to show that you are flexible, and to be honest, you are coming across as a spoiled brat jerk. As you said, there's 999 others to pick for that job, and it's not all about qualifications, it's if the interviewer gets the sense that he'll enjoy working with you, and that his peers won't wonder why he hired such a whiny self-centered cutthroat jerk, regardless of qualifications.
Put another way, you could be the absolutely best qualified person but if you're a PITA to work with you'll be a failure and the hiring managers know it, so they won't take the risk of hiring you because your failure would reflect badly on them.
Note how we're all telling you the same thing. It's up to you to listen, or not.
I'm sure if you ask your school to put you in contact with some folks who graduated a few years ahead of you they will tell you the same thing, that your idea of how the workplace works is totally wrong, and if you don't adapt your current expectations you are going to be miserable.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 157, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 540 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): I just looked and my interview rate is roughly 3% of my applications. That's what happens when there's a thousand applicants per job.
Thousand applicants per job? And you have a degree in Areospace engineering?
Did you intern or co-op during your time at school? If not you already lack something very important. Experience. You need to start following up, or consider going back for post grad and getting some internships.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 159, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 537 times:
Quoting mt99 (Reply 158):
Cousin Eddie? (extra point to whomever gets the reference!!)
" In Seven Years he has found no work - he says that he is holding out for a Management Position...."
"Clark: So, when did you get the tenament on wheels?
Eddie: Oh, that uh, that there's an RV. Yeah, yeah, I borrowed it off a buddy of mine. He took my house, I took the RV. It's a good looking vehicle, ain't it?
Clark: Yeah, it looks so nice parked in the driveway.
[Raises class to his mouth]
Eddie: Yeah, it sure does. But, don't you go falling in love with it now, because, we're taking it with us when we leave here next month.
[Clark nearly chokes on his drink]
"
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
1) Because Romney didn't challenge Obama on Libya in the third debate. If he had, the media would have been forced to challenge the President on his lack of leadership.
2) Hurricane Sandy kept Romney off the front pages for the all-important 5 days prior to the election. O'Reilly claims that in exit polls, 42% of voters cited how Obama handled the aftermath of Sandy as an important part of deciding which candidate to endorse with their vote.
3) Romney didn't bring any sense of urgency to the table while presenting the dangers of Obama continuing in office. Romney should have positioned issues in a way that casting a vote for Obama would scare the living daylights out of people.
That O'Reilly didn't list demographics is the reason why I no longer watch his show, he knows nothing about politics. Romney lost because:
Obama had more favorable personal approval ratings, people like the President personally despite the demonization attempts.
Latino Voters (if Roney got the same percentage of Latino support as McCain in 2008 he would be President)
Women voters (Not standing up to folks like Limbaugh who called Sandra Fluke a "slut")
Youth voters ( participation amongst this group went up since 2008, I think Romney's people believed it would go down).
Better campaign staff (Obama's campaign knew their stuff, it's pretty clear Romney's Camapaign was counting on some sort of wave of enthusiasm which never materialized).
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 161, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 541 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147): I have no problem being part of or leading a team. But if my role on the team is to clean up or file things, I need to look for a different team.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147): I can kiss ass, but there better be a good payoff.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147): As long as my employers do enough extra for me
Kid, you haven't put your dues in. I don't care where you went to school or what degree you have, when you start work in a first career out of school, you are barely a net positive to your organization, if you're positive at all. They're paying you to stick around and learn, not yap about what you already think you know. They're investing in you hoping that in a couple of years, you'll actually start to pull your own weight. Somewhere around the time that you realize that you weren't as smart as you thought you were. (Trust me -- all adults hit that phase where they look back and realize how little they knew then, and how much they know now.)
And if you don't think you can learn workplace skills in professions other than your dream job, I'm quite certain you won't learn those skills at your dream job either.
I tell ya, this generation. They think as long as they've done everything they think they were supposed to do, they are entitled to a certain amount of spoils for their attendance. And if they don't get it, someone else is to blame.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 162, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 538 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 161): Trust me -- all adults hit that phase where they look back and realize how little they knew then, and how much they know now.
And also realize there is no such thing as the "dream job" - no matter who you are, you are still doing things other people want you to do, not what you want you to do. The key is to find a good balance between what you want to do (and what you want to achieve) and what they want you to do.
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 164, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 537 times:
Quoting mad99 (Reply 163):
Post any vacancy and you'll get 1,000 trying. After all, its just a email so no effort.
the numbers mean nothing
For an Engineering postion, there are quite a few apps, and qualifiers. But web and email filters will whiddle those down proir to getting to an HR or engineering job. a 3% success rate on job submissions indicates something is wrong with BMI727's application process.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 160): Romney's Camapaign was counting on some sort of wave of enthusiasm which never materialized).
I don't think it was Romney's campaign that counted on this so much as the GOP party campaign. This campaign was successful in many states. However on the national level where popular vote dictates the electoral vote, the GOP is finding that Gerrymandering only gos so far.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 595 posts, RR: 1 Reply 165, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 537 times:
BMI727...perhaps some perspective is in order for you.
You have made some valid conservative arguments for why Obama's ideas were faulty. However, where you have gone horribly wrong is that you are in fact a pot calling the kettle black.
Now, I know this will hurt your sensibilities as a college educated out-of-work near 1%er, but bear with me here.
Take out the word Government/President/etc, and insert the words Parents. And see how your situation is no better than the things you are arguing about.
Now, sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do while we wait for the things we want. After the Navy, I took a job parking airplanes for an FBO. The pay sucked, the hours sucked, the people sucked, but guess what, it helped pay the bills and keep me out of my parents house. Eventually I got the job I wanted and have been at it for a while, but guess what, I have been looking for a better job.
You have to network, if you send an online resume to a company, follow it up with a phone call, and keep calling, once a week at a minimum. Eventually you will get the job you want, until then...go flip some friggin burgers, get out of your parents house (so they can turn your room into a sauna), and be a productive member of society.
"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 166, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 535 times:
Quoting cws818 (Reply 151): First of all, you can blame President Bush for that. He is a Republican. Second of all, at least they had jobs and they actually worked.
I'd actually blame the leaders at Enron who ran the company into the ground but that's not the point. The point is that plenty of companies, even big ones, go out of business, but very few are lucky enough to get bailouts from the government.
Quoting cws818 (Reply 152): You should follow your own "logic". Put up or shut up. Stop whining, stop blaming the government, stop claiming to be a victim - do something instead.
I'm not blaming the government completely, it's really an exacerbating factor more than anything. I've heard others far more adamant that Obama is the problem than I. But it's incredibly frustrating to see the government protecting the workers at car companies while not affording others, including myself, similar considerations.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 155): When you meet the cleaners on the shopfloor that attitude will come out and the interviewers can see it, not good.
I don't disrespect them, it's just a job that I don't care to do mostly because it pays like crap. If they're happy with it great. For me, taking such a position would be indicative of a massive failure.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 155): No, you have enough education that isn't what is holding you back from getting the job you want.
I'm going to need more education. I'll need to move up the job ladder, not down, since I'll need to make up for the income I'm missing now over time rather than just trying to minimize losses in a dead end job.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 155): Employers will not care at all if your examples of working in a team or dealing with a difficult person or having to show leadership come from working at subway.
I can work on a team, having proved as much, and have nothing to gain from slinging bologna. Whatever teamwork that requires...
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 155): They will, however, expect to see a full resume with a good explanation of why any employment/education gaps exist, you are going to have to think of a damn compelling lie and be a good actor if your real reason is that you don't want to come accross how you have on here.
I don't see what's wrong with telling them the truth: I haven't gotten an offer for a position in my field and my time is better spent looking for that rather than doing a job I would hate and doesn't teach me anything or get me closer to where I want to be.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 156): You may have noticed that the practice hasn't continued since 2008, have you not?
I'm sure people said the same thing circa early 1980s. But, that hasn't stopped the car companies from taking another bailout in a few decades' time. They didn't learn last time.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 156): It won't be, just like Mir wasn't hired to vacuum the plane, he was hired to fly it, and his skills and his pay reflect that. However if you want to be hired, you will have to show that you are flexible, and to be honest, you are coming across as a spoiled brat jerk.
If I'm being paid well to do something annoying once in a while, that's fine. That's part of life.
But, if you're talking about getting paid $10 per hour just to sweep floors, go find someone else. That job won't get me anywhere and I have no interest in doing it. Hell, if someone wanted to pay engineering type wages to sweep floors I might even consider that, but as long as that's a low paying job, it isn't worth my time.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 157): Thousand applicants per job? And you have a degree in Areospace engineering?
That's exactly what I'm hearing from people.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 157): Did you intern or co-op during your time at school?
Worked in the machine shop, and learned that it's much nicer to be telling others what to do than stand around getting dirty myself. Or at least be less dirty.
I don't know what the deal is, but for the most part there seems to be no following up to do. Even if you know someone on the inside you just go through the applicant tracking system (they all have one), and once the application is in the stack there isn't much that can be done to check up on it. I've gotten some put "on the top" or something to that effect so someone should actually see it with human eyes, but that's the best I can get done as far as getting help from the inside.
Quoting D L X (Reply 161): Kid, you haven't put your dues in.
I'm willing to put my dues in, but Subway or Home Depot ain't it. That's just a waste of my time, since I won't want to be there because the pay would suck and I'm not learning anything I need to know. I don't mind taking a job that isn't great, but it better be leading me somewhere better (and on a reasonable timetable), otherwise it isn't worth the time and effort.
Getting paid $60,000 per year to get coffee for a while might be worth it. Getting paid $10 an hour to do it in a coffee shop is useless to me.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 164): But web and email filters will whiddle those down proir to getting to an HR or engineering job. a 3% success rate on job submissions indicates something is wrong with BMI727's application process.
I have no idea how many of my applications get read by actual people, but my guess would be under half. Nobody seems to find any problems with my applications, including people paid to do so, and advise me to basically pack in as many keywords as possible and hope for the best.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 167, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 533 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 166): I won't want to be there because the pay would suck and I'm not learning anything I need to know.
You've had multiple people on this thread tell you that you are wrong on this very point. You know the job that I learned the most at? My paper route. I learned how to solicit business, I learned how to perform under a deadline (in adverse conditions often), I learned how to deal with that boss that "just doesn't understand," and I learned how to collect payables. I put it on my resume, and I can't tell you how many interviewers asked me about my paper route when I went looking for an engineering job. I can also tell you that these skills I learned as a paperboy were directly transferable to my later professional jobs.
You seem to have a problem with the interpersonal skills required to get a job. You will get those working ANY job that requires you to talk to people. Honestly, you NEED to work retail. That would be the best way to gain the skills, and probably learn what skills you didn't think you needed.
And you really need to get off your high horse about some jobs being beneath you. Like it or not, that just comes off as lazy.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 168, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 536 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 166): The point is that plenty of companies, even big ones, go out of business, but very few are lucky enough to get bailouts from the government.
And my point is that it only happens under exceptional circumstances, but keep making a big deal out of it if you must.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 166): I'm sure people said the same thing circa early 1980s. But, that hasn't stopped the car companies from taking another bailout in a few decades' time. They didn't learn last time.
Right, what a tragedy, first the 80s Chrysler bailout, then the 00s GM and Chrysler bailouts, once every two or three decades...
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 166): I'm willing to put my dues in, but Subway or Home Depot ain't it. That's just a waste of my time, since I won't want to be there because the pay would suck and I'm not learning anything I need to know. I don't mind taking a job that isn't great, but it better be leading me somewhere better (and on a reasonable timetable), otherwise it isn't worth the time and effort.
It better? So the corporate world owes you a job to your liking? And it needs to be on your timetable? Holy crap, what a jerk you are coming across as. Good luck with that attitude.
sovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2339 posts, RR: 14 Reply 170, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 539 times:
BMI727 - I am 25 years old and an aerospace engineer myself, with a master's degree. When I was in school, I double majored (mechanical and aerospace engineering) and got both degrees in 4 years. Keep in mind I had a 1.5 hour commute to school each way each day. I also simultaneously worked TWO jobs for a total of 35-40 hours a week to make some cash and pay for school with what's left. I took out loans for the rest (which I have almost paid off by now). And I still went out and got smashed with friends every weekend, but that's besides the point. My one job was at Best Buy selling stuff and my other job was delivering pizza. I quit Best Buy after I got my degrees and then I went to grad school but still delivering pizza on the side. I kept that job until I got my current engineering job. I didn't think it was "too low" for me. I did what I had to do.
And later when I go to interviews and I quickly mention this to them, they might think "this guy works hard" (which I do). It's good to have that attitude and experience along with good grades and degrees. My current job is not my "dream job" but it's better than sitting around looking for my "dream job". That's what I do when I get home from work.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Considering what I might realistically make over the course of a career, with a government more than willing to take over a third of my income, we are talking about a small fortune.
Let's see, I am single, still living at home, no kids or anything. That's about as high taxes as you can get. And yet I still don't get taxed over a third of my income. Additionally, I am happy that I'm not in Europe where the taxes are MUCH higher. A third seems like a bargain when some countries tax you half or more!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): but it's ridiculous to see them taking care of pretty much every group but mine
Even though that's not true, engineering is hardly the group that's ever needed too much help. You've already helped yourself by going into a hard science degree.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): But cutting defense to support further social programs when defense actually does need the funds is a poor idea
Why does defense need the funds? We have the most capable military BY FAR. Both in numbers and technology
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): Trailer trash single moms or people with engineering degrees?
I happen to know two "trailer trash moms" who are struggling to make ends meet. Once you're in the gutter it's not easy to get out. What would you do when your baby is crying and hungry, the father doesn't help out much and your job only pays enough to get by? What would you do first? Get a new job? Go to school? Take care of the kid? Pay rent and bills? In general, people with engineering degrees are smart enough, skilled enough, and in a good enough position that they don't need much government help.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): enough money for my siblings and I to be educated
So, you would take money from your parents but not the government? What happened to being independent?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 92): but I can tell you there aren't many out there
There are plenty of engineering jobs and there always was. In 2008-2009 there was still jobs albeit less. Engineering was still one of the least hit industries during the recession. I get job offers every month and I am not even applying to them. Some useless, some not so much.
Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 94): Aerospace engineering is one of the few fields that is actually looking up, and has been.
Agreed.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102): Hell no. I've worked too hard for that crap. I spent four years getting a six figure education specifically so I don't have to do that.
So did thousands of others, including myself.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 125): I just looked and my interview rate is roughly 3% of my applications. That's what happens when there's a thousand applicants per job.
Yes, when you apply for the Boeing engineering job like every aerospace engineer in the country. You must find other places, other opportunities. Aerospace engineering is a tight niche. Try applying somewhere for mechanical engineering. There's way more mech. engineering jobs out there and the work in many cases is nearly identical.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 136): You did a lot, but you refuse to diversify your skills with any other type of employment, and you refuse to network. No, LinkedIn does not count.
To be fair, it is not easy to network. It's not like you can just go out one day and start meeting people in the industry. LinkedIn has its uses and can be beneficial. It isn't for everybody but it can be good sometimes.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 171, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 540 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 167): You seem to have a problem with the interpersonal skills required to get a job. You will get those working ANY job that requires you to talk to people. Honestly, you NEED to work retail. That would be the best way to gain the skills, and probably learn what skills you didn't think you needed.
Because I haven't kissed the right rings? Dealing with people is a pain in the ass. I can do it, it's just that a lot of the people I have to deal with annoy the hell out of me. There seem to be far more people who like me than I like.
Either way I've worked my butt off through school, so I have no time to waste in dead end jobs. I've made the investment and now it's time for it to pay off, and menial jobs are not a pay off by any stretch.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 168): So the corporate world owes you a job to your liking? And it needs to be on your timetable?
Willing buyer, willing seller. If a job pays like crap and doesn't lead me anywhere I want to go in a reasonable amount of time, why would I be interested? That would offer little to me, and my time is probably better spent seeking jobs I'd actually want.
Not at all. I'm sure there are many people perfectly happy with jobs I would absolutely hate. Nothing against the people that do those jobs, but I don't want to do it.
I spent practically all my time in school working on or leading teams. Doesn't everybody.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 169): Do you truly want advice BMI or do you just want us to appease you?
I'm willing to listen. I'm probably not willing to do some useless, menial job that I'm overqualified for unless it clearly helps me, but I'll listen.
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 170): And later when I go to interviews and I quickly mention this to them, they might think "this guy works hard" (which I do). It's good to have that attitude and experience along with good grades and degrees.
Working hard at a crappy job to get through school is exactly what I'm talking about: I'd have done that if I'd had to because that's what it would take to get me where I want to be. But I never had to do that, I just had to spend countless hours on schoolwork. To me, delivering pizzas wouldn't do much.
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 170): So, you would take money from your parents but not the government?
You wouldn't save money to give your kids an education? I sure as hell would, although without scholarships there's no way my parents could have even come close to affording it. And I still have a pile of loans.
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 170): Try applying somewhere for mechanical engineering. There's way more mech. engineering jobs out there and the work in many cases is nearly identical.
I have. And most of my out of classroom experience is more closely mechanical than aerospace.
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 170): I get job offers every month and I am not even applying to them.
How the hell do people do that? I'm pretty sure my resume is on every damn website there is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 172, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 533 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): Because I haven't kissed the right rings? Dealing with people is a pain in the ass. I can do it, it's just that a lot of the people I have to deal with annoy the hell out of me. There seem to be far more people who like me than I like.
This is why you aren't getting jobs.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): I'm willing to listen. I'm probably not willing to do some useless, menial job that I'm overqualified for unless it clearly helps me, but I'll listen.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10554 posts, RR: 53 Reply 173, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 535 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): Either way I've worked my butt off through school, so I have no time to waste in dead end jobs.
You keep saying that, but you're wasting time being unemployed.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): Because I haven't kissed the right rings? Dealing with people is a pain in the ass.
Good luck, kid. You're gonna have to deal with people at your dream job, and when they see that you have this attitude, they're going to give the job to someone else.
You've got lots of great advice here -- the problem isn't them.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7427 posts, RR: 2 Reply 174, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 534 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 161): I tell ya, this generation. They think as long as they've done everything they think they were supposed to do, they are entitled to a certain amount of spoils for their attendance. And if they don't get it, someone else is to blame.
That is true, but here's a slight push back. People 30 years old are lead surgeons. :ead litigators. Actuaries, CA captains. Professors. As odd as it may seem, people do hit professional maturity sometimes before you can notice physical signs of the aging process.
Part of today's workplace is 65 year olds and 25 year olds learning how to work together somehow. Undoubtedly, 65 year olds have immense knowledge and perspective that is valuable. Yet.......
........ people often do the marquee, defining work of their career between the ages of 22 and 28.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 175, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 538 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 173): You keep saying that, but you're wasting time being unemployed.
I'd rather be unemployed a little longer and find a decent job than take time away to waste time on a job that doesn't really offer me anything as far as moving forward.
Quoting D L X (Reply 173): Good luck, kid. You're gonna have to deal with people at your dream job, and when they see that you have this attitude, they're going to give the job to someone else.
I can deal with people, it's hard not to. Of course I'm not dumb enough to show how much some people bother me, but then I don't expect to like everyone I work with. God knows I never have before.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 174): ........ people often do the marquee, defining work of their career between the ages of 22 and 28.
Exactly. I see no reason why I should sit around waiting to contribute when I know I have the skills and training to actually do things. I have no desire to sit around wasting that valuable time on menial jobs.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3251 posts, RR: 1 Reply 176, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 534 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175):
I'd rather be unemployed a little longer and find a decent job than take time away to waste time on a job that doesn't really offer me anything as far as moving forward.
You will find that the longer you live in your parents house without a job , the farther your dream job will slip away. There are going to be other new grads with fresher skills coming around soon.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): Exactly. I see no reason why I should sit around waiting to contribute when I know I have the skills and training to actually do things. I have no desire to sit around wasting that valuable time on menial jobs.
But that's the problem. You are just sitting. You are not advancing your skills in any arena other than the ability to mooch of your parents and blame others for your failings.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 177, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 541 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): I'd rather be unemployed a little longer and find a decent job than take time away to waste time on a job that doesn't really offer me anything as far as moving forward.
My very first job at 18 (other than my paper route at 13) was during college doing part-time menial tasks at a large law firm. My main responsibility was doing the afternoon interoffice mail rounds three days a week, pushing a cart around the office on an hourly schedule.
Six years later, through no fault of my own, using the "goal" rhetoric in my interview that I outlined above and you seemed to ignore, I was the administrator for a firm down the street, managing the entire office.
Seemingly menial task jobs can lead to much greater things, once you understand how to handle yourself in the workplace, something you've so far not been able to pick up on, judging from your prior posts. There's a lot of good advice for you in this and other threads. I agree with the poster who said you aren't listening, you're just hearing.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10442 posts, RR: 20 Reply 178, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 541 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171):
Willing buyer, willing seller. If a job pays like crap and doesn't lead me anywhere I want to go in a reasonable amount of time, why would I be interested?
Because it shows you can hold a job, work with people and deal with different situations. Believe it or not, that's a big part of what matters.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): Of course I'm not dumb enough to show how much some people bother me
LOL, you think you can disguise that?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): I see no reason why I should sit around waiting to contribute when I know I have the skills and training to actually do things.
You have a bachelor's degree in aerospace engineering and no work experience, just like thousands of others, by your own admission.
What things can you "actually do"? Attend class? Read textbooks? Do homework? Solve problems you know have a solution, because they wouldn't be in the textbook otherwise?
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 179, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 541 times:
Quoting casinterest (Reply 176): But that's the problem. You are just sitting. You are not advancing your skills in any arena other than the ability to mooch of your parents and blame others for your failings.
...which is why I'd probably be better off going back to get more education than doing a crappy job, unless anyone needs engineers with tomato slicing skills.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 177): Seemingly menial task jobs can lead to much greater things, once you understand how to handle yourself in the workplace, something you've so far not been able to pick up on, judging from your prior posts.
I don't think taking a job sweeping floors in the hope that someone discovers me or something it the best route to go. I'll do a menial task, but there should be a clear path to something better.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8351 posts, RR: 47 Reply 180, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 542 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): I'd rather be unemployed a little longer and find a decent job than take time away to waste time on a job that doesn't really offer me anything as far as moving forward.
So tell us, BMI727, why you should be given a "decent job".
Because you're willing to work hard and do, when necessary, things that you don't like?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 108): Doing menial work would be a waste, for me and the people I'd work for.
Because you're likeable and an assett to any team of which you're a member?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): Dealing with people is a pain in the ass. I can do it, it's just that a lot of the people I have to deal with annoy the hell out of me.
Because you're independent and self-reliant, always looking to better yourself and take chances as they come along?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 175): I'd rather be unemployed a little longer
With that attitude, you won't even make it to the interview stage. Stop feeling sorry for yourself because mean old Obama will take away so much of your salary, the way you're acting he won't be President if and when you finally get a job.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14309 posts, RR: 26 Reply 181, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 540 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 178): Because it shows you can hold a job, work with people and deal with different situations.
You think anyone gets through school or life without working with people and dealing with different situations? Or does it only count if you're flipping burgers?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 178): What things can you "actually do"? Attend class? Read textbooks? Do homework? Solve problems you know have a solution, because they wouldn't be in the textbook otherwise?
I've learned the skills I need to go work and contribute, which is exactly what I want to do. There's nothing to prove by doing a job anyone could do.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 178): Clearly dealing with others is not a strength...
I've dealt with others for pretty much everything I've ever done. Just in the future it would be much better to deal with others at a real job making real money rather than dealing with others at a fast food joint.
Quoting aloges (Reply 180): Because you're willing to work hard and do, when necessary, things that you don't like?
Yeah, when something needs doing I'll stop at nothing to get it done. As long as there's something in it for me. Going the extra mile at a real job is something people notice and always pays off. Doing the same at a menial job is burning daylight.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16799 posts, RR: 57 Reply 182, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 543 times:
And don't tell me you aren't blaming it on the government because this entire conversation in which you got verbally pummeled started with you trashing the DNC-controlled government for the fact that you can't find a job.
I am not going to tell you what I think about you and your attitude because it would probably get my post pulled (at least) but I would suggest you open up your mind and take to heart what others have said here. It might actually help you get a job. Your entire world-view might be wrong and you are young enough to change that.
See, Obama didn't win on Tuesday because a bunch of lazy jerks want their stuff. He won because a lot of very hard-working people work for him and with him. And when I say "a lot," I don't mean a few tens in his administration, but the millions who took part in his campaign.
In spite of what conservatives say, liberalism is actually about working hard to get what you want. For all the fluff and bluster about lazy liberals that I hear from conservatives, I notice how it is often conservatives who come from wealthy families and who never really did have to work very hard for what they have. Having to work hard for what you have makes you realize how much of what you are actually owes to factors outside your control and that often makes you want to make the world a fairer place.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 183, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 545 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 179): I don't think taking a job sweeping floors in the hope that someone discovers me or something it the best route to go.
So don't limit yourself to sweeping floors or flipping burgers. Head down to a temp agency and let them evaluate what skills you currently hold, and what jobs they could put you in (they'll put you through a couple of hours of tests!). If you have any basic MS Office capability, for instance, you'd be amazed at what kind of work they can send you out to do, and those won't be minimum wage jobs.
Doing that, even for a few months, will give you extremely good work experience that you can put down on a resume and discuss during an interview.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8351 posts, RR: 47 Reply 184, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 540 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 181): Doing the same at a menial job is burning daylight.
Nonsense. It shows a potential employer that you don't shy away from menial tasks, which exist in pretty much every job, but fulfill them with care and dedication.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5093 posts, RR: 13 Reply 185, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 542 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 171): How the hell do people do that? I'm pretty sure my resume is on every damn website there is.
You are going to continue having job problems. The problems isn´t the government or anyone else. The problems seems to be you. You have a serious attitude problem. In the real world, humility goes a long way in one´s quest for success. You must first crawl before you walk. And what´s more, nothing good ever comes easily. (at least not usually). In the hard lesson that is life, these ar
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And then there was his way with words... or lack thereof.
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Its very much a two way street. I have so much knowledge of the client base and pricing structure, if I went to a competitor I would close down my branch office. My company is very loyal to me and they do that extra for me - which means I have no problem doing the same for them.
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