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Now, Time To Face The "Fiscal Cliff"!  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Seems now is the time of reckoning for the failing of the "super-committee" to come up with a plan.

Seemed everyone was content to kick the can down the road to right now, after the election.

Seems the good ol' Congress has 49 days to reach compromise or $500B of automatic tax hikes and spending cuts kick in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-b2a0-ae18d6159439_story.html says:

Quote:

If Obama can engineer a compromise to avert the cliff with the freshly reelected Republican House, he could set the stage for progress on other second-term priorities, including immigration reform, climate change and investments in education and manufacturing. Such a compromise could also infuse fresh energy into an economic recovery that has suffered from uncertainty over the future of federal budget policies.

“Getting a deal on long-term fiscal soundness is paramount to move forward and to see the economy really keep improving,” said Bill Daley, Obama’s former chief of staff. It will also “give confidence that the political system can address a major issue.”

Personally I think that is way too optimistic, but who knows?

The GOP has been happy to find ways for the political system to not address major issues, so why should it be a Dem concern?

In any case, we shall find out to what degree Obama has learned the lesson of the debt ceiling debate.

He has the Senate and the veto power and a House full of GOPers who will probably take the hit for not coming up with a compromise.

Some more food for thought:

Quote:

Despite the risks to the economy — and the potential disruption to the 2012 tax filing season — Democrats see a clear advantage to going over the cliff. In January, once the Bush tax cuts have expired, Democrats would be free to draft their own plan to cut taxes for the middle class, but not the wealthy, and dare Republicans to reject it.

“If you allow all the tax rates to revert, you’re talking about raising $5 trillion over 10 years,” Van Hollen said. “So Republicans will have to choose: Do they prefer $5 trillion in [new] revenue? Or something in the range of $2 trillion?”

Personally I hope Obama has learned the lesson and lets the GOP squeam after their defeat.

In their zest to say no increase in taxes, they will drown themselves in a sea of taxes, then the GOP will be in the position of needing to ask for tax cuts, instead of being in the position to deny tax increases. That to me seems to be worth taking the plunge.

However,

Quote:

In the coming days, Democrats say, Obama is likely to launch a concerted public relations campaign in support of his budget plan, continuing his call for a “balanced approach” to debt reduction.

The GOP pushed the country to the brink in the debt ceiling debate and it showed everyone how far they'd go.

Now is the time to see how far the Dems will go to get the GOP to back off a bit.

Quote:

“I love what John Boehner is saying, but I have a hard time believing Republicans won’t cave,” said GOP tax lobbyist Kenneth J. Kies. To resist Obama, “you have to be prepared to shoot the hostages. You have to be prepared to let it all expire. And it takes a lot of courage to do that.”

Some feel the odds shift to the GOP side in the New Year, but that has its risks:

Quote:

Many Republicans insist that they will regain leverage in January and February as the Treasury Department runs out of options for managing the nation’s finances without additional borrowing authority.

But after the debt-limit battle of 2011, approval ratings for the GOP Congress went into free fall and many Republicans are not eager to repeat the experience.

“I get a sense there’s still a fairly strong interest in Congress among the conservatives to use the debt ceiling as some kind of leverage,” said Heritage Foundation senior fellow Patrick Louis Knudsen, who was a top aide on the House Budget Committee to Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan (Wis.). “But they are a bit chastened about how that worked — or didn’t work out — last year.”

Grab the popcorn, this should be interesting!


Inspiration, move me brightly!
77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):

In the coming days, Democrats say, Obama is likely to launch a concerted public relations campaign in support of his budget plan, continuing his call for a “balanced approach” to debt reduction.

What budget plan? The Senate controlled by his own party has not passed a budget in how long, three years and running now?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 1):
What budget plan? The Senate controlled by his own party has not passed a budget in how long, three years and running now?

And yet, the bills get paid.

Indeed, let's hope for better, but let's not be so melodramatic.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

The deficit needs to come down. Not simply have its growth slowed, it needs to come down. Eventually debt reduction is a goal.

AND

Jobs have to be created.

....

I would say for the deficit, both sides have to compromise on spending cuts to favorite proframs...as for jobs, maybe waive taxes on all new jobs for a year, or other incentives?





Pu


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4673 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

The fiscal cliff deal will get done. At this point, the GOP can't risk angering the middle class. They will go along with a tax rate increase for the +250,000. The Budget will get worked out to push the cuts to the budget out a bit, in order to give more time for the economic recovery to take place. The GOP can't bluff Obama out anymore. Obama does not have to run for reelection.


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 3):
I would say for the deficit, both sides have to compromise on spending cuts to favorite proframs...

I would go further. I think the only way to reform Medicare and Social Security, and make it stick, is an honest meeting in the middle that neither side can just walk back on. Even if a unilateral reform is fiscally sound and decent policy, some bright spark on the other side will twist it into "they're destroying Medicare" or what have you and leverage the retired vote to defeat the other party, before or after the reform is actually passed.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20746 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
The GOP can't bluff Obama out anymore. Obama does not have to run for reelection.

Boehner gave a strategically important address this afternoon, giving few details other than he's intending to tie allowing new revenue sources to an agreement for a revised tax code and benefit cuts in social programs.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):
I think the only way to reform Medicare and Social Security, and make it stick, is an honest meeting in the middle that neither side can just walk back on.

I look at these two programs as totally different in our need to approach them.

When you look at Social Security you can see a history of responsible politicians sitting down and working out what needs to be done. Reagan and Tip O'Neill managed to work together and get the job done. The reality is that we need to keep the program with the same level of integrity that President Reagan managed to do.

Maybe one way to boost contributions to the program is to establish a Guest Worker program. Pay taxes at a level that demonstrates honesty and an ability to support you and those with you in your immediate family and you get another year.

I look at Medicare based on 8 years of living in Australia and doing business there after that. THey manage to deliver better health care (based on outcomes) at a far lower cost. Just as important, employers in Australia do not have the burden of employee health care costs on their backs.

We need to look at approaches like theirs. It can include both public and private insurance and it gives this country's employers a huge step up in growing and competing.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Boehner gave a strategically important address this afternoon

Boehner has been fast to act in order to avoid the White House taking all of the attention. It is important, IMO, for him to get some ideas on the table as fast after the election as possible.

The big question is if he can get his heard of wild tea partiers under control for a vote before the changeover in Congress.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Boehner gave a strategically important address this afternoon, giving few details other than he's intending to tie allowing new revenue sources to an agreement for a revised tax code and benefit cuts in social programs.

I heard it, and thought it was arrogant.

I think it's time for Obama to sit back and let Boehner come to him instead of vice versa. Obama is the President, and he has a fresh term and a stronger hand in the Senate. This cliff is of the Congress's making, and it's for them to come up with a workable solution.

If Congress does its usual (nothing!) and we get to Jan 1 without a deal, then we get rid of the Bush tax cuts once and for all, and it's a whole new ball game where the GOP has to ask for things they want instead of shooting down things the Dems want.

I hope those in the Administration are ready to play some hard ball for a change.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13649 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2508 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
I hope those in the Administration are ready to play some hard ball for a change.

Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate somehow wasn't "hard ball" of them, right?   



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently onlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

I have a solution to avoid this so-called fiscal cliff. Whatever date Congress' winter break starts...if they can't come to an agreement, put them all on the no-fly list, and if necessary, lock down the Capitol Complex, office buildings and all until they come to an agreement. If Congress wants to act like little kids, lets treat them like little kids.

Marc


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5676 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate somehow wasn't "hard ball" of them, right?

The electorate wanted it, in case you missed the reelection of the man you claim to be responsible.

I most certainly support "universal access to healthcare" though I firmly believe the Republican's were remiss in not working Democrats with and helping to shape the resulting legislation. What we have is unbalanced and needs some solid fixes, I am happy that it is very possible now that those fixes will occur (versus an irresponsible abolishment of the act).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

I started my planning way in advance so believe I should be able to neutralize the impact of any upcoming tax hikes, but will see. Have moved out of NYC to New Jersey to eliminate the ridiculous city tax, so that is 3.65% of my salary less that that proto-fascist Bloomberg has to push through soda bans and the like. Stopped all charity giving. Sold most of my investments over the past couple of weeks, and the most recent ones will in the next few weeks once they become eligible for the long-term capital gains treatment - this way I not only reduce the impact of the market collapse but harvest capital gains at the current lower rate. Will at some point reinvest most of the proceeds in tax-free municipal bonds and inflation-protected bonds.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate somehow wasn't "hard ball" of them, right?

Let's see: Obama made Health Care Reform a major part of his 2008 Campaign.

The electorate voted him into office knowing full well that it would result in Health Care Reform being pushed.

Where the GOP really screwed up was in focusing on changes that would have taken the burden of employer nanny care off the backs of employers - especially for major companies. All they were left with was a campaign that was against the health of the middle class.

And an election for President lost yesterday.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4673 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 12):
Stopped all charity giving.

And you wonder why we need to fund welfare?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Boehner gave a strategically important address this afternoon, giving few details other than he's intending to tie allowing new revenue sources to an agreement for a revised tax code and benefit cuts in social programs.

He has to put a position out of where to start from. Obama set his line. Let's see if real negotiations occur. I imagine the finish line is going to be really close to Obama's side of the court.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate

At least you didn't use the "2/3rds of the electorate" line. Because last I checked, that same electorate soundly voted for Obama (and by extension, his policies) not once, but twice

Oh, but I forgot, those people really aren't true Americans. They're illegal immigrant socialists that hate the US.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 14):
And you wonder why we need to fund welfare?

Spending my money in items that improve my quality of life does a whole lot more to reduce poverty (at least for the guy who provided me that good or service) than giving it to some rich white-guilt ridden trustafarian who wants to devote his "career" to non-profit after his parents spent $200,000 on his education because he believes the concept of profit is wrong. Same with investing the rest - reduces a heck of a lot more the poverty of the people who are employed in the factory I help fund. Most of my charity giving was focused on creating equal access to opportunities by promoting economic freedom, property rights and the rule of law, but since people obviously don't seem to care I reckon spending and investing my money as I see fit will have a greater effect (plus, the people I was giving it too were starting to piss me off). There is room for targeted charitable welfare, but honestly most people end up working in the space for the wrong reasons and I frankly don't have time to do the due-diligence and stay on top of them, so this is just more efficient.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Seems the good ol' Congress has 49 days to reach compromise or $500B of automatic tax hikes and spending cuts kick in.

Oddly enough, seems to me that this situation produces yet another very good reason for not having across-the-board elections in November.   I imagine that that date was originally selected because by that time the harvest would be well and truly in and people would be free to travel into town to vote; but the practice does tend to mean that 'not much gets done' until well into the new year........

That factor looks as if it will be especially harmful this time. As I understand the 'fiscal cliff,' a large number of 'temporary' tax concessions - some of them dating back all the way to George W. Bush's day - are due to expire before Christmas unless they are extended or replaced. There's not much doubt that agreements will be reached under which they WILL be extended in some way - but it's also pretty clear that no such agreement will be reached until Congress is very close to the Christmas recess.

That may make sense in political terms - but it's just plain crazy in economic ones. It's clear that large numbers of taxpayers - particularly, as far as I can gather, those on low incomes - will be uncertain, right up to Christmas, as to whether or not they will end up paying extra taxes. It's only natural, therefore, that they'll be cautious about their spending. So Obama's second term is virtually certain to begin with a 'consumer downturn,' whatever happens in Congress from here.

Talk about 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater.' I really think that the USA should think seriously about changing the traditional election date to a more sensible one. Not only because 'getting the harvest in' is no longer a problem nowadays - but because it would spare all those people we've seen in the newsreels from having to queue for hours out in the open in winter weather.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
That may make sense in political terms - but it's just plain crazy in economic ones. It's clear that large numbers of taxpayers - particularly, as far as I can gather, those on low incomes - will be uncertain, right up to Christmas, as to whether or not they will end up paying extra taxes. It's only natural, therefore, that they'll be cautious about their spending. So Obama's second term is virtually certain to begin with a 'consumer downturn,' whatever happens in Congress from here.

The poor won't have to make any changes. Their Christmas spending in covered by various programs like Toys For Tots. The Marines handle that one IIRC.

Reality is that a poor family will have to scrape hard to get each kid one toy.

In political terms, the GOP will probably work hard to come up with something before Jan 1as they would then be negotiating on the current, lower tax levels. When Jan 1 hits the negotiations will be on how new tax cuts from the Pre-Bush Rates will be cut. That will give Obama far more discretion in focusing on the middle and lower classes. The ultra wealthy will not be happy, but their candidate lost and one reason was massive tax cuts for the ultra wealthy.

One problem that Boehner will face if the Tea Party. They are so rabid that they will not be able to work out a viable compromise before Jan 1. At that point Boehner "might" be able to work out a deal with Obama that can be passed using all Democrats and any moderate (reasonable) Republican that might be left in the House.

Then the Senate can pass what is delivered. This time I have a feeling that McConnell will not be one of the main players like he was last time.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 12):
I started my planning way in advance so believe I should be able to neutralize the impact of any upcoming tax hikes, but will see. Have moved out of NYC to New Jersey to eliminate the ridiculous city tax, so that is 3.65% of my salary less that that proto-fascist Bloomberg has to push through soda bans and the like. Stopped all charity giving. Sold most of my investments over the past couple of weeks, and the most recent ones will in the next few weeks once they become eligible for the long-term capital gains treatment - this way I not only reduce the impact of the market collapse but harvest capital gains at the current lower rate. Will at some point reinvest most of the proceeds in tax-free municipal bonds and inflation-protected bonds.

Wow. Are you running for Drama Queen of the year?



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineInsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate somehow wasn't "hard ball" of them, right?

took 'em long enough and should have happened a lot sooner (and a better law at that too e.g. single payer)


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10907 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

There is a good article here on the "fiscal cliff" for those of us who are not finance experts.

Why 'Fiscal Cliff' May Be Bigger Threat Than You Think

As the deadline for fiscal peril in the U.S. nears, Wall Street is worried that the impact could be much worse than anyone thought—while investors remain nearly oblivious to the danger.

read more:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49478505/


Analyst Marc Faber quote:

“I think the regimes will try to keep the system alive as it is for as long as possible, which means there’s no “fiscal cliff,” there’s a fiscal grand canyon,” Faber told CNBC’s “Squawk Box.”

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49500213

 Wow!   



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
The poor won't have to make any changes. Their Christmas spending in covered by various programs like Toys For Tots. The Marines handle that one IIRC.

Reality is that a poor family will have to scrape hard to get each kid one toy.

Slight misunderstanding there, Ken777. I was referring to 'low-income' families, not 'poor' ones. Sure, the poor will have to go on depending on charity, they're more or less out of the game; while the well-paid ones will probably be able to go on spending - up to a point, anyway. But it's the people 'in the middle' - who sometimes have a bit of cash to spare, but at other times realise that they've 'got to be careful' - who tend most often to determine the month-to-month state of any given economy.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4673 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 16):
Spending my money in items that improve my quality of life does a whole lot more to reduce poverty (at least for the guy who provided me that good or service)

when you get out of that ivory tower in New York and move to New Jersey, you are going to be in for a rude awakening. Charities exist to take care of those that can't take care of themselves. In some cases it is self inflicted, but in many cases, battered women, mental issues, abandoned kids, high medical cases, there are external uncontrollable factors, Your view of the world is a sad one, and perhaps when you have to interact with more people you will start to understand a bit more of the world around you.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Because ramming through ObamaCare against the will of the electorate somehow wasn't "hard ball" of them, right?

I think you meant to say "following the mandate of the electorate", which is what he should do now.

You may not like ObamaCare, but your Presidential candidate just lost, as did a few of your Senators.

Time for you to find a new saw. Go see what FOX News has on, I'm sure they have plenty to suggest.

ObamaCare is the will of the people, and the law of the land.

Even Etcha-Sketch Mitt had tacked back to universal coverage (of a sort) by the end of the campaign.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Ken777 : Low income families are poor. Under the poverty line in most cases because our minimum wage is below the poverty line. And, in reality, minimum wage
26 Post contains links Revelation : For what it's worth: Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/obama-gop-lead...markers-budget-deal-080338986.html So Obama is already reaching out. Here's hoping we
27 Ken777 : Reality is that the President really doesn't need to battle. Calm discussions can move issues forward, or he can wait until Jan 2nd when he can start
28 Revelation : It'd be nice if it was that simple, but the cure may be worse than the disease. Then again, the disease is pretty bad.
29 pu : It seems to me the fear is any worthwhile cut in government spending would hurt the economy Y E T Any worthwhile increase in government revenue would
30 Post contains links venus6971 : Maybe somebody will start listening Sen Tom Coburn MD instead of berating him for not playing ball. http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/...b-bccf-457
31 casinterest : Some of these items may or may not look dubious. However at the end of the day, on a budget of 3.5 trillion he isn't even looking at 1% of the spendi
32 speedygonzales : How about reducing military spending 25% from ridiculous to simply humongous?
33 Post contains images StarAC17 : The argument that this stuff should be cut and is valid and there should be a debate about it. Some of these things may bring back a larger return to
34 pu : Exactly, but its a catch-22, isn't it? The deficit needs to come down but that can only happen by cutting spending or increasing taxes, both of which
35 DocLightning : I'm listening. How would you schedule it? There has to be a balance between giving the incoming officials time to set up their campaign and over-exte
36 Newark727 : I'm not so sure about that. The stimulus value is arguable, but all the tax cuts passed with the argument that they'd raise government revenue have f
37 AeroWesty : Well Obama is putting the squeeze on Boehmer this morning. He's gonna make the House responsible for any failure to pass legislation to continue tax c
38 StarAC17 : The question is does the US deficit need to come down in the short term, the US is still the safest place for other countries to park money and inter
39 Ken777 : Drugs will always be a problem, with or without a war. My preference is to keep attacking the suppliers and not worry too much about the addicted mul
40 DocLightning : You'll win a war on terror the same way. Just keep killing terrorists until we're all out of terrorists. Works like a charm, right? Oh, wait... If th
41 NAV20 : Difficult to say without knowing your system in much more detail, DocLightning. As you'll no doubt know, the British Commonwealth electoral system is
42 Post contains links EA CO AS : Not the 2010 Affordable Care Act; the majority of Americans were against it when the President forced it through Congress, leading to the 2010 GOP El
43 Ken777 : And tax it heavily to help pay for some of the problems it causes. The IRS is going to need to have tax tables for employers Jan 1st. They need to ma
44 DocLightning : I think you missed the "not" in my post. I said that GOP obstructionism would NOT be viewed as the Democrats' fault by voters and Mr. Boehner knows t
45 par13del : The best thing may be for the Congress and Senate to do nothing. The tax breaks will expire, thus raising taxes which the democrats in general want, s
46 casinterest : Yeah, but no one in the current government wants to get blaimed for causing another recession, which is what woulfd happen if all the tax cuts expire
47 pu : One of the downfalls of the American system (versus the parliamentary system) is that instead of compromising on spending initiatives between parties
48 Post contains images Ken777 : Oooops! Computing with bifocals is my excuse. What we don't know is how things would have gone without the stimulus. Nope. The Party of No was alive
49 par13del : I look at it differently, both sides will be able to blame the other equally for not coming to an agreement, but neither will take responsibility for
50 Revelation : One of the attractive points to going over the fiscal cliff is that it will reset things at a point of lower spending and higher revenue. New spendin
51 Dreadnought : Because the house passes continuing resolutions, as that is the only alternative to shutting down the government. Budgets do not require a supermajor
52 casinterest : So it's all or nothing? Typical for the GOP. No sense of compromise or well being for the Republic I suppose? There is plenty of room to work out a d
53 Dreadnought : That IS a compromise. Obama wants to increase tax rates on those who already pay 90% of the taxes. My proposal will increase their rates, and they wi
54 casinterest : That is not compromise, it is blackmail. But if the GOP wants to go that route, they can be my guest. Then the Tea Party will have to really explain
55 Dreadnought : And what do you call arm-twisting the richest 1% (5 or 10 whatever) who already pay the bulk of the taxes into paying more while the rest of us (incl
56 Post contains images par13del : I can't resist, asking them to pay their fair share since their millions were made on the backs of the people and their infrastructure. These type qu
57 Dreadnought : Which they paid for (mostly). Back to the point - we should simply allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. All of them. The 35% bracket would go to 39.6%;
58 casinterest : No one has a free ride. Everyone pays taxes and gets deductions. However we have an overwhelmong problem called the national debt/ I call it fair. Th
59 tugger : Yeah, I never understood this. And we don't admit to it easily. The tax cuts should never have happened in the first place. But even President Bush n
60 Post contains links Revelation : A little research shows it's more complicated than that: Ref: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...ge/2012/02/parliamentary-procedure
61 par13del : How will that be possible, if any Democrat calls for any continuation of any of the Bush tax cuts it will be proof positive that they used them as a
62 Post contains links DocLightning : Well, jeez. I'd call it... the way things used to be. And I don't mean in the 1990's under Clinton. I mean 1950-1970. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi
63 DeltaMD90 : I'm no liberal by any regard, but I've noticed something and it has really bothered me... the more money I make, the more money I seem to want to kee
64 tugger : No it wouldn't be any type of "proof" beyond being careful to no shock the system. You can very well say that "X" is a bad idea and no we are going t
65 Dreadnought : If you look at you history, you will also find that the lowest tax bracket was no less than 20% all through the 1950, on all income over $4,000 (abou
66 Ken777 : And when you look at the Tea Party flavored budgets it is easy to see why the Senate didn't pass them. That probably will happen. Then the Moderate (
67 par13del : If that was the case a lot of complaints would not have been heard, the issue is that they were never even debated, thus robbing the public of the di
68 Ken777 : I have a feeling that a lot of Democrats in the Senate had absolutely no desire to debate a House budget shaped by a bunch of folks wrapping themselv
69 Dreadnought : Any budget proposal can be a basis for debate and continued negotiations. I could bring in a proposal for a budget of $1 and you can start by convinc
70 pu : Since the Democrats say the same thing about the Republicans, it seems to me you choose to believe the Republicans because you vote Republican and li
71 tugger : Well at least you admit that. I have similarly noted the same before, that there is no linear relationship between cap gains taxes and investment or
72 Dreadnought : They put forth a budget and were ready to sit down. It was Harry Reid who said, every year, that he was not even going to try to negotiate. Sorry, bu
73 par13del : As public servants within the structure of the Senate and the politicial process, the question is, is it up to them, their desire should be secondary
74 Post contains links tugger : The "double-dip" thing doesn't sway me anymore. I am fine with "double taxation" like this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation As I have st
75 Ken777 : You are not going to get a reasonable debate/discussion if one sides consider the proposal to be far from reasonable. It's like selling a house. When
76 par13del : What the leadership considers is one thing, what the membership who will review and vote on the bill will do is something else, lets remember that du
77 Ken777 : The Tea Party put up their candidates inside the GOP, made campaign contributions and expected performance from those who won. And the Tea Party poli
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