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Is The US Christian Right Done?  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

MD and ME have approved same sex marriage, and MN and WA have turned down bans. Attitudes on social issues are shifting and church attendance is falling. Far right stances on abortion issues have proved disastrous. Whether you agree or not with the Christian right, it's been a long slow decline with no upturn in sight, but it seems that last night was the end, or at least an acceleration into obscurity. Next Presidential election cycle they will have nothing to offer voters unless they change most of their positions. Is the Christian Right done?


E pur si muove -Galileo
157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

I think so. And unless the GOP ditches that image of them (or at least, one of their flanks) quickly, they're going to continually lose elections; the US public is just not on their side. Only 20% of Americans support a total ban on abortion, etc.


Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

The Christian Right will still matter in local and congressional elections where they can deliver enough votes to swing who gets into office by effective margins. On the big stage, they've already been marginalized. The Christian Right isn't able to deliver the kind of voting blocks that swung major elections in the Reagan era.

Watch what happens in terms of immigration during the next few years. Catholic Hispanics, a fast-growing demographic, should be attracted to the GOP, as the party's stances on abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem-cell research, euthanasia, and religious freedom is appealing. But if you snub them in the face on the immigration issue, you're going to lose them to the Democrats.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12360 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

The bible belt is solid red.

If they give that up, where do they start from?

Here's a map I found, I think it's accurate:



Note that even NC was leaning blue till Obama came out in favor of gay marriage.

If they abandon the bible belt they'll have an even harder road going forward.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3868 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
If they give that up, where do they start from

To actually being the party of small government, which is what they were before they got in bed with the religious right. There's a firm foundation for the Republicans--concede the culture war, and focus on economics. Be in favor of policies that encourage entrepreneurship, small business ownership and development, and economic innovation. That's how they win/create a new base.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8416 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

There are still plenty of Republicans who are insane Church-y but just hide it in an effort to appeal to secular Republicans and zealots alike. My fear is that Mitt wasn't religious fundamentalist enough to excite the base in Virginia, Ohio & etc.

Republicans already thought carefully about becoming the open-immigration party. GW Bush already was. They tried it and it didn't (yet) suit the party to favor open immigration. But that is their plan for the future. Flood the country with conservative Christians and use religion (& oil money) to govern the country. Kind of like the Saudi Arabia model, which Bush and others idolize, IMO.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7239 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

I am a republican voter, but I guess I'd consider myself more libertarian.
I won't say that you're not allowed to be religious, but in reality, I left the church 2 years ago because I saw so much hypocrisy in religion. For me, and especially for social issues, I believe that these issues must be decided by the states themselves, as we saw last night. Church attendance is indeed falling, because the church itself fails to see that it is 2012. Right wingers need to know that We do have to move on somehow if we are going to be a prosperous and rich nation.

In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents. If more resources were given to adoption agencies, that would make me happier. Also who gives a damn about gays and raising kids? They're perfectly capable of raising children the same way MY parents did with me. And look at me now, successful student in the process of moving to Japan.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

I live in the Bible Belt and I see no chance that there will be a change here. Look at the various states stuck in this mindset. Oklahoma delivered a 66-33 "victory" to Romney. How far out were the rest of the Bible Belt states.

The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

The Christian Right isn't done, especially at the state level. And, like the Tea Party, the GOP will be missing the courage to straighten them out.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I won't say that you're not allowed to be religious, but in reality, I left the church 2 years ago because I saw so much hypocrisy in religion.

   It's the reason I don't attend any church/temple/mosque. Although baptised and attended church as a child, I've likely been to the synagogue more than church in my life. particularly with Christian faiths, I see so much hypocrisy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.


Again, agree. Also, look at types like Joel Osteen (?) - he's become, so it would seem, fabulously wealthy by being a "Christian". Even a cursory reading of the Bible indicates that if you are a Christian, your world view is that "it's all about them", not "it's all about me".



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinemdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
If they abandon the bible belt they'll have an even harder road going forward.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

That may be true but if the GOP keeps going the way they do, they will become the "Party of Angry White Men." Polling shows how much gains the Democrats are making with young voters and minorities (esp Hispanics). The GOP needs to also realize that the country is in the midst of change in values and views. A majority of young voters support progressive causes and many of them may probably remain as Democratic voters as they get older. I think of myself; I've voted in 4 Presidential elections since I was 18 and I've voted for the Democrat (president).

For many people who aren't white, the GOP in recent years have seem to become more and more hostile largely in their move to go even more rightward, and it scares them.

What the GOP needs to do is get the tea party types to bug off and pander less to the Bible Belt. Granted I live in a Blue State but really they will be less and less important as that base ages and goes away.

just my 2 cents...



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4382 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):

In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents. If more resources were given to adoption agencies, that would make me happier. Also who gives a damn about gays and raising kids? They're perfectly capable of raising children the same way MY parents did with me.

Completely agree. My background is pretty much identical, and it's been kind of a hard issue for me but i've become pragmatically pro-life. The thing that always pisses me off the most is thinking of the millions, probably billions of dollars of political donations from pro-life and pro-choice groups the past 40 years and what an incredible waste it has been. Think of all the young mothers in need who could've been tangibly helped instead of bloated war chests filling our tvs with ridiculous attack ads. And think of it, overturning RvW is probably the greatest realistic victory for them, and that would merely return things to the states. It would ultimately reduce abortions, but not nearly by the amount they'd expect you to believe. State lines would be crossed, or done in a shady manner.

The jurys out. Stare decisis. I only wish people would realize they could actually make a difference now instead of this seemingly eternal political gamesmanship. Not to mention the views of many that adoption to be limited to their idea biblical ideas of 'family'. The world just doesn't work that way. Complete idealism. Conservatives like to talk about how the government shouldn't be relied on to effectively fix problems, well great example!



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
I live in the Bible Belt and I see no chance that there will be a change here.

Nobody's saying the views will change there, but their impact on national issues is pretty much done.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group,

The problem is the GOP has upset pretty much everyone else. Not too long ago, there was a VERY large group of middle-class people whose values and viewpoints were similar, if not coincided, with the current-day "Christian Right". With the advent of the internet and an increase in communication, urbanization, and social support, that group has increasingly distanced themselves from those values.

The GOP in this election cycle chose to keep appealing to the Christian Right, in hopes that they could do what they've always done and bully and pressure people into not "destroying the fabric of this country". It didn't work out so well, and now with the Christian Right having thrown their hands up and said that over half this country is stupid an this is no longer the America it used to be, the rest of us will continue on while they slowly die out.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
Again, agree. Also, look at types like Joel Osteen (?) - he's become, so it would seem, fabulously wealthy by being a "Christian". Even a cursory reading of the Bible indicates that if you are a Christian, your world view is that "it's all about them", not "it's all about me".

There are two different viewpoints of Christianity. The one that the Religious Right tends to take is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you are absolved of all your sins and you will go to heaven. You can be a murderer or an adulterer but if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you will go to heaven. The only exception, I suppose, is homosexuality. That apparently bars you from heaven unless you become "ex-gay" or whatever you want to call it.

From Wikipedia's article on Ann Coulter:

Quote:
Coulter says that she holds Christian beliefs, but has not declared her membership in any particular denomination – she has mentioned that her father was Catholic while her mother was not. At one public lecture she said, "I don't care about anything else; Christ died for my sins, and nothing else matters." She summarized her view of Christianity in a 2004 column, saying, "Jesus' distinctive message was: People are sinful and need to be redeemed, and this is your lucky day, because I'm here to redeem you even though you don't deserve it, and I have to get the crap kicked out of me to do it." She then mocked "the message of Jesus ... according to liberals," summarizing it as "...something along the lines of 'be nice to people,'" which, in turn, she said "is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity."

I find this to be a ghastly theology that frankly borders on sociopathy. The idea that you are superior to others solely because of your religious beliefs and that your behavior towards others is incidental at best. A sense of inherent superiority is what binds just about every despot tyrant together.

As the Religious Right has been faced with a world that is more and more diverse, in which other forms of faith expression have become more and more important, they have reacted as religious fundamentalists tend to do: by becoming more extreme, more condemnatory of others, and more insular. It is ultimately not an issue of religion, but of psychology.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

And this winds up being an increasingly large problem for them because they can't afford to keep pandering to this group, either. A younger generation is being brought up and they are increasingly ecumenical or religiously unaffiliated. The U.S. population is also becoming increasingly urban and suburban, meaning that today's young people are being raised in an environment of diversity. In twenty years' time, a good portion of their White Evangelical base will be dead. A younger generation will be less interested in (and indeed turned off by) staunch opposition to gay rights, contraception, and abortion and more interested in actual fiscal and political policy.

If the GOP turns its back on this older demographic, they will lose some votes from them, yes... but it's not as if the DNC will gain those votes. The GOP needs to go back to what they were in the 1970's and 1980's, a party focused on fiscal responsibility (which they weren't during the '80's, admittedly), reduced government regulation on businesses, and reduced government interference in private behavior. It wasn't until 1989 that the Christian Coalition inserted itself firmly into GOP policy.

But if they continue on the current course, they will become increasingly irrelevant on a national level and if that is the case, they will become increasingly irrelevant on a state level as a result. If they take a new direction and abandon the RR, they will suffer in the short term, yes, but they will prosper in the long-term.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3951 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents

That is the problem with liberals - they always consider themselves at the fore-front of every issue, whether they are or not, to the point they like to think of themselves as progressives (which is ironic, because if they lived on the early 20th century they would be protesting Henry Ford for threatening the livelihood of all those organic, local, free-range buggy-whip manufacturing small business co-ops). The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

Oh, and before the attacks start - I am far from being religious. In fact, I am a true atheist - as in, I know for a fact all religions are wrong and treat all religious demonstrations accordingly - , not the garden-variety liberal atheist, as in, an oikophobe that will go out of their own way to justify any religious behavior no matter how barbaric it is just as long as it is not perpetrated by a Christian (or, as the incredibly bigoted attacks over the past months show, a Mormon).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
Oklahoma delivered a 66-33 "victory" to Romney

How many states delivered similar margins to Obama?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

Since the dawn of civilization the world has been split between people who derive their power from violence and the people who derive their power from the free exchange of goods and services, it is just that over time the roles have evolved. On the camp of the people who derive their power from physical violence, the transition from monarchy/tyranny to the current environment was actually very seamless - the same kind of people are now attracted to roles in politics and government. However, with regards to moral violence, the role of the intellectual justifier for the use of physical violence has largely moved from the clergy to academia. That left the church a bit at odds about what to do, so they are trying to catch up.

In other words, I don't take lessons on what to do with my money or how moral my way of making it is from someone who makes a living out of telling fairy tale stories to gullible people. Same reason I don't ask the Tarot lady in my street for career advice, really.

Quoting mdsh00 (Reply 9):
Polling shows how much gains the Democrats are making with young voters and minorities (esp Hispanics).

Young (i.e., naive) voters have always voted for Democrats, and the minority plantation has always been effective at keeping people poor so they can believe voting Democrat improves their chances in life. And at some point Asians, who still lean Democrat, are going to realize they represent exactly everything the Democratic party has sought to vilify (strong family values, success and social mobility through hard work and entrepreneurship) and see how much they are being targeted by Democratic policies (e.g., making it harder for their kids to get a proper higher education) and come to their senses.

Quoting mdsh00 (Reply 9):
A majority of young voters support progressive causes and many of them may probably remain as Democratic voters as they get older.

Like they say, "if you are not left-wing by the time you are 20, you have no heart, if you are not right-wing by the time you are 40 you have no brain". Luckily I have always valued my brain above everything else (that is how I managed to avoid other stupid things people do when they are young, like starting to smoke or driving drunk).

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 10):
Think of all the young mothers in need who could've been tangibly helped instead of bloated war chests filling our tvs with ridiculous attack ads.

Think of all the mothers in need that could be helped with all the money that goes to the abortion mills at Planned Parenthood.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1734 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
My fear is that Mitt wasn't religious fundamentalist enough to excite the base in Virginia, Ohio & etc.

I don't think there are enough people to excite in those states any more, and certainly not without upsetting the rest.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):

The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group,

I don't think they can afford to play to this group either, as we saw in this election. Next election this group is going to be smaller, older, 'deader' and even less relevant.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

Agreed.
.
That big red ocean from the Carolinas to Kansas is probably the most reliable and largest single voting block ... the foundation of Nixon's Southern Strategy which isn't going to change their worldview just because of a lost election, (not their first btw)....and the GOP isn't going to stop pandering to them without major withdrawal symptoms.

Quoting us330 (Reply 4):
party of small government, which is what they were before they got in bed with the religious right.

A lot of these youngsters now mistakenly believe that the likes of Reagan and Nixon mentioned God every 5 minutes or made abortion a national issue like Bush and Rove did, but they didn't, and won peerless landslides in large part because they were fiscal conservatives (and aggressive cold warriors) who kept religion a more quiet matter.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

LBJ gave up the south, and except for Watergate there wouldn't have been another Dem president until Clnton 25 years later.

....Thats why the Republicans will not get too far away from the Southern values IMO. It is still the case that if you win this big red ocean plus maybe 1 or 2 other states, you can win...which doesn't sound THAT hard!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

This is a huge area where Republicans aeen't nearly the natural choice for Hispanics they believe they are: Catholics are very much more into helping the poor (as official policy-not as private initiatives)....and that tired old abortion issue is not materially more attractive to Catholics than anyone else, despite church policy.

Pu


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

The "Christian Right" is far from done. If anything, this loss is going to push many even further right. Think of it as sort of a defense mechanism. The group may be smaller, but it won't lose strength, because some will leave, but some will also become more extreme to "preserve their values and ideals".

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

If this isn't an oversimplification then I don't know what is.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
liberal atheist, as in, an oikophobe that will go out of their own way to justify any religious behavior no matter how barbaric it is just as long as it is not perpetrated by a Christian

Liberals might do it more often, but being an apologist has nothing to do with political affiliation. You'll find them in every party in some form or another.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
And at some point Asians, who still lean Democrat, are going to realize they represent exactly everything the Democratic party has sought to vilify (strong family values

"Strong family values" in the Asian sense and "strong family values" in the right wing sense are not at all the same thing. I'm not sure how you even came to that conclusion.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I'd consider myself more libertarian
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I will always be pro-life

I can certainly appreciate your reasoning for being pro-life...but does that not conflict with your libertarianism?



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7239 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 10):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):

Both of you, despite me disagreeing with some of your views, just earned spots on my Respected Users list. You guys show what true listening in politics means.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
I can certainly appreciate your reasoning for being pro-life...but does that not conflict with your libertarianism?

It can, but I don't let it. That's the beauty if Libertarianism; true libertarians discuss, not bash. If i wanted to have a debate with a fellow Libertarian about the issue of Abortion, I know somehow we can come through with a compromise.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3951 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

I don't think there are enough people to excite in those states any more, and certainly not without upsetting the rest.

Agree. 7 out of the 10 richest counties in the U.S. are in the Washington D.C. metro area. As long as that well keeps running there is no way Virginia will ever vote Republican again. They are the very definition of takers.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
"Strong family values" in the Asian sense and "strong family values" in the right wing sense are not at all the same thing. I'm not sure how you even came to that conclusion.

How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple baby mommas, do you know?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6281 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

The demise of the Christian wacko faction has been rumored and predicted for many years. They, along with the tea party idiots will be around catering being kowtowed to by the republicans for years to come.

[Edited 2012-11-07 17:15:33]


Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

This is the problem with conservatives, they think that making other people believe what they do is imperative.
Abortion has been around for years illegal and legal. Pro-Choice means that is should be the mother's choice to a certain point. It protects those that have been raped, or suffered incest or suffering medical conditions a way to end what they didn't want. Being Pro-life is fine from a personal point of view, but to impose that view on others is just wrong, especially when in many cases, there are reasons for terminating the pregnancy beyond what most can handle.

The real plan to limit abortions should not be to make it illegal. There would be far too many black market abortions. The real solutions are to find ways to help people make the choice of life over abortion.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Is the Christian Right done?

It is not done. It is dwindling though. When it finally is pushed to the sidelines, and abortion and gay marriage bans are not passed as purity tests for elected offices ,the Christian Right will be done.

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
That big red ocean from the Carolinas to Kansas is probably the most reliable and largest single voting block

But that is the wrong belief. North Carolina is teetering on the edge of being a reliable democratic stronghold Nationally. Within the state itself there are issue with ethics that occurred to destroy the state party. However in the next 10 years, NC will be becoming more purple than red. The congressional voting block of gerrymandering is the reason for the 9-4 split in congressional races. (More votes were cast for Democrats than Republicans). The GOP is loosing touch with North Carolina and probably soon it will be Georgia as well.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3278 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple
baby mommas, do you know?

My God you really are judgmental. I can't imagine living with the mentality that you appear to. You attempt to lump everyone into some neat little package, and vilify them for having different beliefs. Why such hate?

I'm far from super-religious, but I'm interested in how you know "for a fact" that all religions are wrong.

Open your eyes to the world around you. It doesn't fit all these preconceived notions you think it does.

I'm liberal. My parents (also liberal) worked hard for their money after obtaining graduate degrees, and are currently in the top 3% of wage-earners in the US. They do not mooch off the system. I worked hard and earned two college degrees, and currently have a job that pays more than the median household income in the US at 24. We don't fit into your notion that liberals are lazy.

You can try to paint a picture of large groups of people into whatever you want them to be, but don't mistake your narcissistic elitism for truth. The world isn't black and white, and attitudes like yours create the ever-growing polarity we see in the US and across the planet.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple baby mommas, do you know?

I have a few in my patient panel, but not many.

The issue is not "family values." They don't think of things in such terms. The issue is one of priorities. Growing up Jewish, we understand these priorities well.

After shelter, food, and medical care are taken care of, the next most important priority in the typical Asian household is education. It is exactly the same in a typical Jewish household. That's why both demographics tend to do so well.

You will go to school. You will get good grades. You will graduate high school. You will go to college. You will study something that will get you employed. You will have a plan for a career as young as high school. In our household, these things were never even discussed; they were assumed. It never even occurred to me that not going to college was an option. In my family, college is what you do after high school just like high school is what you do after middle school.

In my work, I work with a lot of families families and what I have noticed is that whether families are socially liberal and permissive or socially strict and repressive is unimportant. The kids will do what the kids will do behind the parents' backs.

However, if the family demands academic excellence and uses that as the primary metric for success, the kids tend to stay out of drugs, don't become teenage parents, and stay out of trouble with the law. That is because these behaviors are incompatible with academic excellence. The kids are taught from a very young age to delay gratification and that, not Bible-thumping or "Family Values," keeps them out of trouble.

I will also point that in many religious extremist families, whether it is Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, liberal education is actually shunned because it might expose the children to facts and views contrary to doctrine. Can't have them learning evolution or cosmology or history that might contradict the Bible (or whichever book). These children often do very poorly as adults, especially as many of them rebel against their parents' religious beliefs.

[Edited 2012-11-07 17:43:16]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

The bible belt is solid red.

If they give that up, where do they start from?

From here:

Quote:
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
.....
The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom.... I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are?... I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

- Barry Goldwater, (1909–1998), five-term US Senator, Republican Party nominee for President in 1964*, Maj. Gen., US Air Force Reserves, author of The Conscience of a Conservative.

http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2007/12/the-berry-goldw.html



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
7 out of the 10 richest counties in the U.S. are in the Washington D.C. metro area.

This is just patently false.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-...ins-8-10-wealthiest-154837437.html

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
As long as that well keeps running there is no way Virginia will ever vote Republican again.

Virginia's governor is a Republican who lobbied aggressively against cuts in government spending.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
They are the very definition of takers.

However, most of the government spending in Virginia is defense related and those folks lean Republican.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Think of all the mothers in need that could be helped with all the money that goes to the abortion mills at Planned Parenthood.

The vast majority of Planned Parenthood funding does not go to abortions.

I don't think the Christian Right is dead, however their influence will fade to being a minor player....much how the Catholic Church's influence has faded.


25 Pyrex : And how exactly is getting raped a consequence of someone's own decisions? Oh, and what percentage of abortions happen due to rape? Easy. I have this
26 Newark727 : This stuck out amid all the mischaracterizations and broad-based attacks on "liberals" because I just looked at your profile, which says that you are
27 Newark727 : Don't remember ever seeing too many Republicans do that either, to be quite honest. Tax cuts are nothing if not a promise of gratification now rather
28 ltbewr : The Christian right have had their cycles of ups and down since the USA was born. Sometimes they have gone to extremes, like with alcohol and drug pro
29 kaitak : I was actually thinking about that the other day; my father, who is quite conservative, is a member of some Catholic online forums; he would be an Ob
30 Maverick623 : While the Holy See and the Pope have taken that stance, I can assure you the individual community churches in the US are still VERY community oriente
31 DocLightning : Yes, because I internalized that. Also because I decided at a young age that most of the liberal arts were a bunch of fluff that had no practical use
32 DeltaMD90 : Yeah I think the same... I see helping the poor and stuff the most but most of the news faces on the more minor things so many think that's what Cath
33 Post contains links Pyrex : Except it isn't. By none other than that libertarian rag, the Washington Post. http://www.wjla.com/pictures/2012/09...-loudoun-county-va-25978-1804.h
34 zippyjet : They may have lost the battle but they are far from losing any war. One of the sad aspects of religious fanaticism whatever the faith, is that the ex
35 doug_Or : The Latino community is generally pretty religious and socially conservative, is it not? Could a new guard of younger (and lets be honest here, browne
36 doug_Or : Whatwhatwhat?! For the love of god, give them Mississippi! We're keeping New Orleans!
37 Pyrex : Seriously, anthropology didn't count as a liberal arts requirement? It is hardly a hard science... Or, crazy thought, you could have gone into medica
38 Pyrex : I guess - would never call that to myself but it's basically been written on every performance review I have had over the past few years... obviously
39 Mir : Are you suggesting that people who live in rich counties are "takers"? -Mir
40 Pyrex : In the counties in and around D.C. yes. Unless you are seriously suggesting that government spending (broadly - politicians, staffers, bureaucrats, l
41 DocLightning : The extra two years were worth it. There is value to having an education in something other than medicine. For me, I have an M.S. in molecular biolog
42 pellegrine : Christians are done in the US, as are right-wingers...as a political movement. There is nothing for them anymore. Goodbye.
43 DocLightning : Not so fast. They are extremists. They aren't going down quietly. Most will die out and leave a less loony generation in their wake, but some are goi
44 cws818 : "basically" i.e., it has not actually been written on your performance reviews - it is just what you interpret (we often hear what we wish to hear)
45 Revelation : The GOP does have lots of problems. Indeed, demographics are not working in their favor. Also, their view on social issues aren't in favor - note the
46 connies4ever : Depends on the jurisdiction in which you live. In Canada the Supreme Court has ruled that foetuses are not vested in human rights until fully birthed
47 MaverickM11 : I'm not so sure; they have zero leverage. Sure they can make a stink in the primaries to push forth a candidate who will increasingly be unelectable.
48 Revelation : Lots of states with small electoral counts, except for TX. For the GOP to get ahead, they have to find a way to make a big state like CA or NY tip to
49 Post contains images MaverickM11 : And then what? Spend all their time on abortion? I just don't know what they do to turn around their accelerating decline.
50 Revelation : I think there will always be a group who will find the words "pro life" and "family values" appealing. The wise GOP candidate needs to find a way to
51 MaverickM11 : Do they though? What if Mitt Romney, ignoring the primaries, ran on his MA record without changing or backtracking on anything? I think he would have
52 Post contains links AeroWesty : In a lot of ways, so do I. Some quotes: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to
53 seb146 : I can read posts by other right wingers and see their point and reply thoughtfully my own opinion without degrading them. You just start the degridat
54 Post contains links AeroWesty : I can't find the state-by-state allocation graphic I've seen before, but I did run across an interesting article in the New York Times that further d
55 DocLightning : Politically, but... Bingo. And that's what worries me. Taking that whole "onward Christian soldiers" thing a bit too seriously. No, I'm not just para
56 globalflyer : I am a devout Christian however I am growing more and more tired of the growing hypocracy within. I live in the "Bible Belt" and you should see how br
57 AeroWesty : Out of curiosity, what form of violence do you fear in San Francisco? Isolated bombings for whatever reason, revenge attacks upon individuals of sele
58 DocLightning : If it happens (and I honestly hope it doesn't) I would expect either gay bashing attacks (beatings, shootings) or bombings, particularly in the Castr
59 Post contains images Revelation : I guess we'll never know. He did tack to center after the primaries, and excelled at the first debate, but when push came to shove the majority of pe
60 DocLightning : The trouble with religion is that you can use it to justify anything you like and claim it's divine will. The religious extremists often talk about s
61 MaverickM11 : Is that really worse though? I think they have the potential to wreak far more havoc in a position of power than the odd lashing out, though the latt
62 Post contains images fridgmus : I cannot stand the Christian Right and I'm a Republican! What the GOP needs to do is stay the hell away from women's bodies, any Gay agenda (they're A
63 Mir : People who work for the government are not takers. They earn that money through their labor. -Mir
64 Boeing757/767 : Interesting discussion, all. I've always said the religious right (the American Taliban) has hijacked the GOP. We're seeing the effects of that now. F
65 AM744 : That's one of the big problems with right wing extremists. I'm under the impression that some do believe that they enjoy some god given privileges an
66 Aesma : A libertarian wanting to control women's bodies is not a libertarian, sorry. And leaving your country to find a better life somewhere else doesn't se
67 DocLightning : Not some, but all. You have to believe that you are superior to others or you can't be an extremist. It's part of the definition, really. I would arg
68 Post contains images AeroWesty : Why would Mexicans be voting in an American election?
69 zippyjet : Former Mayor Rudy Giuillani said it best last night in an inerview I caught on CNN: I'd like to see our party go more liberarian, smaller government
70 Pyrex : Are you kidding? Being against abortion is the only possible libertarian position. You decided to have unprotected sex despite being fully aware of t
71 Newark727 : I thought libertarianism was about freedom. Freedom to make mistakes, freedom to have sex with who you want, and freedom to control one's own body wi
72 Aesma : Pregnancies happen even when using protection. The innocent fetus is just a fetus, the millions of animals eaten each day in the US have more intelli
73 PlanesNTrains : As a Christian, It's really challenging to get through thread after thread of antiChristian vitriol like is in this thread. I simply cannot relate on
74 seb146 : I am Christian too. And an American. I don't undersand, as an American, why people care what two consenting adults do. If two consenting adults want
75 2707200X : Would I say the US Christian Right is done, no but their influence in American politics has decreased from mid-last-decade after vigorously standing w
76 Pyrex : Libertarianism is about freedom as long as it affects only you and other consenting parties. Once your freedom starts encroaching on someone else's (
77 AM744 : I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking Mexican-Americans with voting rights. Can't really speak for the rest of the Latin American c
78 aloges : Is an embryo a citizen?
79 Revelation : I hope you understand that many Muslim Americans, Hindu Americans, Atheist Americans, Jewish Americans, etc. feel the same way. As Clinton said, we'r
80 PlanesNTrains : I'm curious which comes first for you? That would help me understand the rest of your positions. Fine. Fine. But I'm not talking about the government
81 Maverick623 : Are citizens the only people with any rights?
82 flyingturtle : There's still the problem that if membership is dwindling, religious groups tend to turn into sects, with all that radicalization and stuff. They'll
83 Post contains images flyingturtle : Aliens have rights too. You're implying that an embryo is a person. Therefore, pregnant women should carry a passport for their unborn. And if somebo
84 Revelation : It's not that simple. Shouldn't infertile people be allowed the benefits of marriage? People past child bearing age? IMHO it's more about committing
85 Maverick623 : No, Aloges implied that only citizens have the right to life. And by technical definition, as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg to create a zygote
86 Newark727 : To more people than you might think, yes. A lot of the defense of the legality of unsupervised drone strikes, extraordinary rendition, and other lega
87 DocLightning : You don't have to. See, it's this thing called a "right." This is something "Christians" (and apparently you really haven't quite got Christ's messag
88 aloges : There is no other way to put this, dear moderators: Bullshit! You're twisting my words far beyond their breaking point. Pyrex was calling unborn babi
89 flyingturtle : He asked if embryos were citizen. That's not what I have learned at university. A little experiment: Do not think of embryos, pregnancies, abortion,
90 AKiss20 : What technical definition? You can't possibly throw a statement out there without citing at least 5 different (reputable) sources that show a consens
91 Post contains images Maverick623 : Nor will you find a 6-minute old baby that is capable either. Should we allow the killing of those who can't consent? Science would strongly disagree
92 Post contains images flyingturtle : This has been proposed by some philosophers. But the fact remains that being born alive is the best demarcation line between a person and a not-yet-p
93 Aesma : Did you eat rocks and sand during the dinner, or was it mostly comprised of stuff that would have been living at some point ? How did you feel about
94 aloges : Ever seen a baby during the post-natal exams? They can certainly object to those. Who said anything about killing? An abortion of an embryo would amo
95 PPVRA : There are both pro and anti-abortion libertarians. There are some who find abortion ok, as long as you don't kill the fetus. This latter group tends t
96 SmittyOne : Interesting viewpoints being offered. Might be worth a thought experiment on why are children (born or unborn) protected by the law in the first place
97 aloges : I realise that it's going to sound cheesy, but thank you for a thought-provoking post. In most civilised societies, the protection of human life has
98 pu : The secular argument against killing kids is the secular morality that murder is wrong, that everyone has a right to self-determination, a right to p
99 Aesma : Considering current fertility rates in our advanced societies, and how many people want to adopt, there is clearly no case for after birth killings (s
100 zippyjet : This "sea change" came about due to the proselytizing nature of Christianity through the centuries. The religion reached out to the barbarians (North
101 Maverick623 : The easy way is not necessarily the right way. And BTW, the subject has switched to medical terms, which does not care whether something is easy or h
102 PlanesNTrains : Where did I say tha that they couldn't? Or that only people planning to have children could? Or any other nonsense that you are probably going to com
103 aloges : I certainly agree. Neither a zygote nor an embryo shows that activity, so they are not yet alive.[Edited 2012-11-10 01:48:05]
104 ltbewr : For too many Christians, they believe that ending legal Abortion and not allowing Same Gender Marriage/Civil Unions, they will get into 'Heaven' in th
105 HOONS90 : I don't think anyone is arguing that you don't have the right to vote. It just seems rather tyrannical that the issue of minority rights are being pu
106 Revelation : Hmm, should I start calling you Captain Obvious too? Nah, I'll turn the other cheek. Pot, you are black! Ok, I'll go with: IMHO (yes, in my HUMBLE op
107 SmittyOne : Which I personally believe are the most compelling and sensible justifications for a policy against murder. Don't confuse a secular justification for
108 Post contains images flyingturtle : This is really thought-provoking. One should always go back to the basics and work from there, instead of assuming the validity of today's moral rule
109 PlanesNTrains : I'm curious how you presume to know what I am conscious of? I am not the state. I am not the church. I am a citizen voting. That is not a violation o
110 DeltaMD90 : Hopefully gay marriage will make it to the courts, where it should be, and subjected to the Constitution. I have a good feeling it will be upheld. I'm
111 HOONS90 : If you were more conscious about how your vote affects the rights and freedoms of minorities, you would have not voted against marriage equality. Why
112 Revelation : Yet you seem to be saying by continuously emphasizing your Christianity that your views are based on those of the Church, and from the outside none o
113 Maverick623 : An embryo that shows all the signs of healthy development and growth is not compatible with life? Strange. Which is fine: my point is that even you a
114 DocLightning : Agreed. But you cannot elaborate a secular reason why it shouldn't be extended to same-sex couples. You cannot. I know you cannot because in 100.0% o
115 SmittyOne : Indeed...because then you realize that most of these seemingly black and white issues are a hell of a lot more complicated. Great points, and as I co
116 Post contains links DocLightning : http://instinctmagazine.com/blogs/bl...-the-ballot-again?directory=100011 Apparently the Christian right isn't quite done yet: Bring it on. Go ahead.
117 aloges : I never said that an embryo is incompatible with life. I said that it does not yet show activity that is "consistent and compatible with life", such
118 DocLightning : I don't think so. As long as you are free to opt out, I just don't see the problem. Your body was your property when you are alive. Once you are dead
119 apodino : I am a devout Catholic and as such have very strong Pro-Life views. That being said..I think a big mistake that a lot of people of faith make is that
120 DocLightning : This is factually incorrect. When the reliability of a method of contraception is calculated, it is calculated assuming real-world use. Abstinence is
121 apodino : Ok then...name one woman who didn't have sex and who didn't want to get pregnant who actually got pregnant? Also...are you aware that the Catholic Ch
122 Aesma : The catholic church is opposed to contraception but not to family planning. So they tell you to use the temperature method and silly things like that,
123 apodino : That is a mischaracterization of what the church teaches. The Church does not teach ever married couple should have 10 kids. The church teaches that
124 DocLightning : Which is such a logical fallacy, because there is no difference between using this method to intentionally avoid pregnancy than there is with using O
125 Post contains links DocLightning : Welp, there they go! http://www.philly.com/philly/news/na...igsinaftergaymarriageadvances.html I'm wondering how long it will be before some loud-mout
126 PPVRA : Taking a vote completely fails to take into account Tyranny of the Majority and is thus an inappropriate measure of what justice, let alone morality,
127 SmittyOne : Exactly, it's just preposterous from a logical standpoint. Utter hooey.
128 Aesma : Mary ? I'm sure it is, as long as you don't try to prove it scientifically. Well, not taking a vote will not solve anything either. And if a strong m
129 apodino : No one is imposing anything. Any woman has the right to choose whether or not to get pregnant. We all agree on that. Some people to the right of me a
130 Aesma : When a cold kills you, nature is working perfectly too. I'd rather take my chances with medicine.
131 seb146 : They are equal but separate. When a referendum is on the ballot, I look at it from the point of who is sponsoring it and how it will effect a consent
132 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Single parents do this successfully all the time (though it is harder.) If one parent can do it, why can't two? Even if they are the same sex? Don't
133 Post contains links DocLightning : The Church has a long history of gross inhumanity to man. Why do you suppose it maintained dungeons and instruments of torture? Have you never heard
134 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : At least it will be decided. How do you know that I'm not conscious of the affects of my vote - for anything? It can be rhetorical, because it doesn'
135 SmittyOne : Leave it to religion to obfuscate something as seemingly natural and straightforward as sex by loading it up with so much baggage. These people could
136 HOONS90 : Of course it matters, unless if you're voting just for the heck of it. You think I am presumptuous in saying that you weren't conscious about the aff
137 Revelation : Seems to me that this is the right way to look at it. That's what happened in Massachusetts - the Court decided it was a right, and that was that. I
138 seb146 : I am trying to get you to understand the separation of church and state. I am trying to get you to understand this is a secular nation, not a Christi
139 DocLightning : Right before the bit where you respond to how abstinence is not as effective as the Church would want you think? Or the bit where the church lies abo
140 mariner : To be honest, I wrestle with the idea. I would certainly vote in favour of same-sex marriage - as a right - and perhaps even fight for it, but it isn
141 pu : I stand with you. Morality in the secular world is just an opinion poll. Pu
142 Aesma : Like usual the catholic church has an answer for everything, so they would advise to use condoms in that case, if abstinence is not an option. How th
143 SmittyOne : This is a gross oversimplification that suggests that secular justifications for a moral position are intellectually equivalent to whether someone pr
144 Mir : You really think it's government workers who are making those counties so wealthy? Lobbyists don't work for the government. All the financial sector
145 SmittyOne : Bingo...absolutely. When I was a churchgoer and aspiring true believer I tried to explain this very point to the pastor and other key 'opinion leader
146 pu : Sure, if history begins in 1776, you would be entirely correct. If history begins with the beginning of written thought, no one can say that that the
147 SmittyOne : While I fully agree with you that the US Constitution is a compilation of some of mankind's greatest wisdom as of the date it was written, I'll want
148 Mir : 1787, actually. There is very little religiously derived stuff in the Constitution, actually. Most of it is derived from political thinkers of the ti
149 gemuser : The GREATEST idea and power in the US Constitution is embodied in the first three words: "We the people". That idea is NOT Abrahamic, Egyptian, Greek
150 pu : You two appear to hate "religion" because you are gay, because of some bad experience in church, because of the Republican Party, or, basically, beca
151 seb146 : IMO, it is not the Christians who have gone off messege. It is the right-wing who have taken this issue and blown it all out of proportion. There are
152 Mir : I don't hate religion. I hate it when religions try to dictate to those who aren't members of that religion how they should lead their lives. You sai
153 pu : The most disturbing part of the Republicsn Party IMO is their in-your-face-ownership of Christianity. Jesus gave up worldy possessions and asked his
154 Acheron : You mean like nowadays conservatives like to stiffle stem cell research and related developments or how they mock hybrid cars while repeating the inf
155 seb146 : Yes, but the right-wing argues that only charities (read: churches) should be the only ones helping people. Government (read: us) should do nothing t
156 SmittyOne : Hate is probably the wrong word. I find religion to be incredibly puerile and its results on the thinking performed by otherwise intelligent people t
157 flipdewaf : Having fun in a safe way? Do you give a donation to your church? if you do then you surely are accountable for everything that the church spends its
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