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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Saw this on some independent news websites-

We all know the stock market tanked the last few says. But this is one thing I did not expect:

Apparently 45 companies have announced layoffs. Preemptive moves to avoid suffering major losses in an Obama economy.

Sources:
Boeing
http://twitchy.com/2012/11/08/layoff...usinesses-in-announcing-mass-cuts/
http://twitchy.com/2012/11/08/forwar...ness-owners-on-twitter-doing-same/
http://michellemalkin.com/2012/10/31/obamas-layoff-bomb/

You can read about it anywhere, really. Do a google search.

Obamacare will destroy small businesses AND corporations alike. The very organizations needed to hire people to get our economy back on track, they're laying off.

Thoughts?


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
135 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
We all know the stock market tanked the last few says.

Buy on the rumor, sell on the news!! Jeez, that's an age-old adage.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4378 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Why is it that whenver the stock market takes a dive, Obama gets blamed?

Then when it rockets, he gets nothing.

I'm not saying he deserves credit for the success of the stock market, but he certainly doesn't deserve blame for it. One thing can't be disputed: he hasn't hindered the stock market, it has soared during his term.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently onlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Obamacare will destroy small businesses AND corporations alike.

You mean that wasn't already happening before Obamacare?

I agree we need to remove the burden of healthcare costs from our employers. But I think we need to do that by passing that burden onto the government, like every other modern democracy manages to do for less money and with better results for the majority of their citizens. Those who have the money to afford better care are still free to buy additional insurance, but basic and emergency care should be a right for every citizen (without costing them their life savings or ripping off the hospital by not paying). This of course would mean a new healthcare tax of sorts, but that would just make up for not having to pay premiums to insurance companies. The net result would ideally be a reduction in costs per person, closer to the levels you see in countries that have single payer systems.

So while Obamacare is far from perfect, it does get some of the necessary steps towards single payer out of the way, like the individual mandate.

[Edited 2012-11-08 20:45:41]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

Nobody is saying that the whole thing is rotten. There are some good parts of it. But there are bad parts as well and when taken as a package, I think the bad outweighs the good.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 3):
I agree we need to remove the burden of healthcare costs from our employers. But I think we need to do that by passing that burden onto the government, like every other modern democracy manages to do for less money and with better results for the majority of their citizens.

The ones where the government pays for everything tend to be far less satisfactory than others, in terms of quality of care, survival rates, wait times etc.

The best system I personally know of is Switzerland's. They have universal coverage, and it's 100% private (insurance-wise). They don't have anything like Medicare or Medicaid. The key is that their universal mandate is geared for catastrophic or big-ticket illnesses, and not the kitchen-sink coverage mandated by Obamacare.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

I will agree that parts of Obamacare are quite needed, and I'd say about 90% of Americans would support those parts, but most of Obamacare, particularly the tax and mandate, is absolutely feared by small business owners. My cousin's restaurant, for example, may have to severely cut back, because he can't afford to buy everyone insurance, and REALLY cannot afford an excess tax.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The key is that their universal mandate is geared for catastrophic or big-ticket illnesses, and not the kitchen-sink coverage mandated by Obamacare.

I honestly wouldn't mind an option where I paid full whack for office visits, then had catastrophic, preventative care and prescriptions at a reasonable co-pay. I'm not even sick and if I paid retail, my Rx bill would over $1,000 per month.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I honestly wouldn't mind an option where I paid full whack for office visits, then had catastrophic, preventative care and prescriptions at a reasonable co-pay

That's essentially the Swiss system, although you are free to upgrade to more comprehensive coverage if you want. By the way, their system places 100% of the responsibility on the individual. Employers don't have any responsibility for healthcare, although they will often negotiate preferential rates for their employees.

What I find really stupid in the American system (and Obamacare does nothing to change it) is that if I am happy with the coverage from my current insurer - I know them, they know me etc, and I change jobs, I am basically required to change to my new employer's provider.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Apparently 45 companies have announced layoffs. Preemptive moves to avoid suffering major losses in an Obama economy.

Sequestration was no secret. It's literally written into the law, so there's nothing in the election that affected it, other than being covered up in the media by election stories and the administration not wanting contractors to send out their notices in the lead up to potential cuts. So this should surprise literally nobody, and there's not a thing Romney could have done about it if he'd won. It's a matter of a poorly written law and the fact that nobody noticed because we were all too wrapped up in the election.

Secondly, you can't blame Obama for Boeing closing facilities in California. They've kind of been on the way out for a while now, mostly due to California being the way that it is. Some of that will be moving to Oklahoma City or other places.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3064 times:
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There really is a lot of agreement between Democrats and Republicans on Healthcare issues. Democrats just see the benefits of Obamacare outweighing the costs, and Republicans the opposite. Either way you look at it, it's good that we are having the discussion. I don't think either side believes that Obamacare is perfect or that changes don't need to be made. Republicans have some legitimate concerns about what Obamacare will do to small businesses, but I have faith that if certain provisions cause problems, then changes will be made to solve them. It's not like Obamacare is set in stone and can't be changed. Hell, isn't the reason it's taking so long to implement all of it so that they can discover and solve problems beforehand?

It's a shame the rhetoric gets so heated and slows the progress, but I think we're on the right track.


User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
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Quoting kngkyle (Reply 9):
but I have faith that if certain provisions cause problems, then changes will be made to solve them. It's not like Obamacare is set in stone and can't be changed. Hell, isn't the reason it's taking so long to implement all of it so that they can discover and solve problems beforehand?

The problem I have is though is the mentality that we'll figure out the problems after it is passed. I was raised to not half a** something and that is what these lawmakers did. The bill should have been thoroughly reviewed before passing it. The bill is huge! We need healthcare reform, anybody who is against it because they think the system is fine is insane. But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

***MODS- Due to computer error, I made a typo in the name of the thread. "Taking" should be "Tanking." Please excuse the error.***

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Secondly, you can't blame Obama for Boeing closing facilities in California. They've kind of been on the way out for a while now, mostly due to California being the way that it is. Some of that will be moving to Oklahoma City or other places.

Well I think everyone can agree that Cali is in the dumps, but other states' companies are having major qualms about Obamacare indeed.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
The bill should have been thoroughly reviewed before passing it. The bill is huge! We need healthcare reform, anybody who is against it because they think the system is fine is insane. But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?
Blue

Exactly. It was passed without much review, and once it passed, people began to get really sensative with any sort of debate about it's repealing and replacing.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?

Something about the perfect being the enemy of the good. The health care bill gets a lot of flak for lack of cost control in a bipartisan sort of manner and a lot of flak from the left for losing the public option which was one way of potentially accomplishing that (would it have? can't really say right now.) Meanwhile as it was gathering steam it started gaining a ton of unequivocal opposition from the nascent tea party tailored for media coverage and it must have seemed like the longer Congress waited, the worse the result would be- the 2010 elections say that might have been a good call.

I seem to have blocked most of the debate about it from my memory but I think President Obama went up a blind alley in trying to pay for it with a "Cadillac plan" tax as that makes it seem like less of a nation-wide responsibility and also seems a bit counterproductive in its focus as it raises money for providing care by making the care that everyone would realistically want access to cost more. There was an editorial talking about how health care isn't like buying a car. The choice is between treating your condition, or not- no in-between "used car" in that situation. (This is also why I'm suspicious of market-centric counter-proposals, though.)

I think one big problem with our health care system is that employers are involved at all, it seems to have evolved from a particular set of circumstances (widespread and steady employment) that has been becoming more obsolete for a while, and when times get rough it may concentrate risk (you don't want to lose your job and your healthcare at the same time, I don't think it happens as often as it used to but still) and raise labor costs. I'm not completely sure how best to reduce their exposure and transfer it to some other organization without going the full single-payer route though, and while I'm perfectly cool with that, I know a heck of a lot of people aren't and I'm willing to accept that if the alternatives can produce a better system. (Personally, I don't understand the argument that the top-shelf high-dollar clinics wouldn't happen anymore, but the anecdotes about time to receive care seem to be somewhat well supported?)


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Why is it that whenver the stock market takes a dive, Obama gets blamed?

Why is it whenever unemployment goes up, Bush gets blamed? Take responsibility for the good, but its someone else's problem when things don't go to plan.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5449 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

The bad news: Hours will be cut to avoid paying for employees insurance.
The good news: More people will have jobs to make up for the reduced hours of others.
The bad news: No one will make enough to live on, so dependence on govt support will continue.
The good news: The more people need the govt, the more power govt has.

I'm not sure if politicians realize the impact that the healthcare act will have on small businesses. Those business owners are smart people who personally invested their lives to build something. They will figure out a way to mitigate the healthcare plan, but unfortunately it will come out of the hide of the employees - that's just how it's set up. That, or they may fail.

There's a lot of talk about the 1%, and I think Harry Reid puts small business in the 3% group. By making the business community somewhat of the bad guy or lucky guy or whatever ("you didn't build that"), I believe we have created a self-fulfilling anti-business mindset amongst many people. How that can be a good thing is beyond me, but that's how it seems to be going from my perspective.

Pay an extra $500/month for healthcare for low/lower wage employees with limited skills? Those days will end for a great many people, and they are precisely the ones that need to be working as much as possible to support their families. I think we will have a lot of really healthy but desperately poor people, and an even larger percentage paying no net federal income taxes (or getting thousands of dollars more back then they ever paid in).

So then we have more pressure on business to pay more in taxes, the rest of the wage earners will pay more in taxes, the government teet grows ever more voluminous, and the cycle continues.

I think Obama inherited a horrible situation. I think both the Dems and the Republicans have put us here. I think Obamas economic policies are doing little to actually fix the problem - that we've seen growth is to be expected. I don't know exactly how to fix it all, but demonizing the rich and burdening small business makes for a successful election but IMHO opinion does little to actually fix what's broken. That includes ramming through a health care bill in a manner that would serve as a great example for pushing through tax reform and budget cuts, but oh we'll......

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Here many companies announced layoffs after the elections because they didn't want the news to influence the outcome (since a supposedly business friendly president was seeking reelection). It has nothing to do with who actually won.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Please don't flame me if I am completely wrong but I thought that;

1) The Boeing cuts had to do with the fact that they were re-structuring their defense arm and not so much the Obama economy, and the majority of them were in the administrative part of the defense arm (although I guess this could be attributed to Obama wanting to cut military spending)
2) The fiscal cliff being a much more looming problem than the implementation of Obamacare. An non-partisan group said that if the fiscal cliff happened that we would end up in a recession anyway, no matter what happened in the election.

I could very well be wrong.. But that was more the feel I was getting when I saw that the stock market wasn't doing so hot.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
most of Obamacare, particularly the tax and mandate, is absolutely feared by small business owners.

This is the main reason why I am against Obamacare. It's also most feared by individuals, especially to those who work part time and go to school. This is a part of the package that really needs to be thrown out. We are not ready for such a mandate. A jobs package needs to come first before mandating health care. If there are no jobs, then how will this be paid for?!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5449 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

If you have 4 employees working about 35 hours a week, it is very possible that you will look to hire a new employee and reduce the existing employees hours. Personally, I will gauge it based partly on performance and life circumstance, but I can guarantee that every business needs to find a way to mitigate the increased financial burden, and one of those ways is to reduce hours.

I believe the city of Seattle also now has a law mandating paid personal days off for employees at companies employing at least five full time individuals within the city. Again, regardless of the benefits or merits of such a law, the downside is that employers will be encouraged to reduce hours to both avoid the law or to mitigate it by having extra staff available to fill in for the employees missing work. So once more, there might be more people employed but all employees will likely be working less as those hours need to be spread around a larger pool of staff.

These are all challenges for small businesses. The difference between a small business and the government that mandates these things is that the small business cannot just continue losing money - they will either figure out a way to mitigate the new costs or they will fold.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Some of the layoffs were just a protest that $400 million sent to Karl Rove and a couple billion spent elsewhere were unfairly NOT able to buy the election.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing...ts-gdp-outperform-under-democrats/

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):

Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it

Most of the Republicans I have seen posting on this board, and on Capitol Hill, are entirely concerned with WHO makes a policy proposal versus the predicted results of the policy by non-partisan sources. The placebo effect applies in politics as well: Obama ideas will always fail, regardless of provable evidence to the contrary.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The best system I personally know of is Switzerland's

For the purposes of comparison to the USA, there are essentially NO poor people in Switzerland. No immigrants. No high school dropouts. No habitual criminals. ( For comparison purposes, only. )

America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.



Pu


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21522 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
This is a part of the package that really needs to be thrown out. We are not ready for such a mandate.

The mandate is how the whole thing is paid for. So it's not a good idea to take it out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 19):
America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.

  

Also when they passed Medicare in 1965 they said it would cost $80 B in 10 years, it ended up costing $365 B for those 10 years and still counting. If you think America will do a great job with health care, I have 2 words for you "VA Hospitals" They can't even take care of sick servicemen & women let alone your Grandma.

My big fear is the the Medical Device Tax (that helps pay for Obamacare ) will stymie research in that area and cost us innovations that could have saved lives but then again dead people don't need medical care.

Also see:

www.dailyjobcuts.com

Employers were waiting to see if there would be a change and when there wasn't they saw more of the same and they started wielding the axe.

[Edited 2012-11-11 17:45:40]

Actually, America will see an astounding growth in small businesses as they try to get to the 49-employee level and 29-hour work week.


[Edited 2012-11-11 17:48:37]

[Edited 2012-11-11 17:49:53]


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 19):
America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.

I think you mean "homogeneous" when talking about those societies, but you're 100% right.

We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when people wish America was more like europe. We simply cannot be europe! And especially now with Europe in massive debt, we don't want that kind of government, and a lot of employers are saying that may come from a second term Obama regime.

Even with or without Mr. Obama in office, we still have the stagnation of government, with Dems in senate and Reps in house. Depending on who makes the best case to the American people, we will see a shift in congressional control in 2014...hopefully, back to the right, because so far, the left's ideas have lead us to more unemployment.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
because so far, the left's ideas have lead us to more unemployment.

I think you are reading your graphs upside down again.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when

You could stop your sentence right here. This is all the Right has going for it. Fear and blame. For all it's talk about the liberals, the most destructive policies and action have occurred under the GOP.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21522 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
Even with or without Mr. Obama in office, we still have the stagnation of government, with Dems in senate and Reps in house.

You make it sound like having split control of Congress is a bad thing. It shouldn't be - if the two parties could actually try to help out the country rather than deciding that their primary objective should be to try and evict the current resident of the White House, then perhaps we could get some action going. And hopefully the beating the GOP took in the election will help them see that the people aren't buying what they've been selling, and get them to change their ways.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 Ken777 : No it won't, If some small business owners don't want to keep going then there will be others who will step in, perform the work and hire the people.
26 AirframeAS : How exactly is it being paid for if an individual doesn't have employment with the mandate? Jobs need to come first and foremost. Same logic applies
27 Post contains images flood : We also know the new reports from Europe on their bleak economic outlook didn't help. So why didn't you link to any? Instead, you linked to the blog
28 PlanesNTrains : You make it sound like magic. When you add costs to doing business, that changes the financial equation for that business. If that happens, the busin
29 bjorn14 : That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)
30 casinterest : I find that laughable since the GOP with it's wars and tax cuts got us into the deficit we are in now. FYI, the 2012 deficit of 1.1 trillion is 100 b
31 Post contains images PHX787 : Well it's created stagnation. Both sides of congress haven't done crap in the last 2 years and it's mostly because of the media scaring the liberals
32 Newark727 : Hold on just a second. The GOP is just as happy to exploit benefit programs for the elderly as the Democrats are- just look at the Tea Party saying "
33 cws818 : That is irrational, because, as you say: We won't be Europe. Who has convinced you otherwise?
34 flood : Did you even bother to read my reply? Indeed.
35 DocLightning : Show me jobs loss at any point in the last 36 months. I don't mean people getting laid off, I mean jobs numbers. People get laid off all the time, ev
36 flipdewaf : It probably should have read"Angry right winger tries to apportion blame as he struggles to come to terms with the choice of his nation" Maybe the li
37 SmittyOne : If you genuinely believed the things you've posted on here about Jesus, why would you even care about money? Wouldn't you be happy to give as much of
38 bjorn14 : The difference is that I decide who to give my money to. Liberals want to decide for me who my money should go to. And trust me I give plenty of it a
39 aloges : So you want to become other people's God by blessing them. Interesting.
40 Mir : Death panels. That is all. -Mir
41 bjorn14 : Not at all, I try to give money as anonymously as possible.
42 aloges : A blessing is an act of God, just as you said: and the most you can do is wish His blessings onto someone else. Hence, this: shows quite clearly that
43 flipdewaf : But broadcast it to the world on the internet? Nice!
44 casinterest : Both parties do it, but in the case of the GOP and it's Fake News network, more scare and featr and misinformation get spread to the masses. Especial
45 SmittyOne : I'm not looking to jab you about what you do with your money - if you give a lot of it away, then good for you. If you don't, then good for you. My p
46 bjorn14 : OTOH, if I didn't help ppl you would then call me a hypocrite because of my faith/values. You can't have it both ways. "Woe to those who call good ev
47 aloges : I use that word very sparingly and have no recollection of discussing your faith with you (brief exchanges do not count). So no, I would most certain
48 Ken777 : Actually I was thinking competition. We had a grocery store near us shut down a few months ago - they simply couldn't compete. This was long before t
49 Post contains links PHX787 : Well, liberals trying to convince me that socialism is actually good Which actually exist, or will exist under obamacare http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/o
50 DeltaMD90 : I think a lot of frustration results in seeing one's money getting WASTED. No one can argue there is waste. Also, many people want to help the poor i
51 Post contains images tugger : You mean just shaking the tree? You can both shake the tree and yes money does grow on trees. Just ask apple farmers (and many others). The whole thi
52 PHX787 : And how does this relate to my argument of total socialism? I understand some things are ok and actually necessary, but should not be abused to the p
53 lewis : In Europe, even the most socialist of the countries do not work under total socialism. Correct, though abuse will be present even if the country is n
54 cws818 : Go buy some crutches on the free market. After all, you are the one crusading against "socialism" - put your money where your mouth is.
55 tugger : Sorry, didn't see any argument against "total socialism" (which I have to ask: What the heck is "total" socialism?), you had only said: which gives n
56 PHX787 : Any amount of "socialism" needs to be monitored so it doesn't go haywire.
57 Geezer : After only reading the first 4 or 5 posts, (more important things to do today), it's funny you should mention that ! I ran across this earlier today.
58 Mir : They don't, and they won't. Healthcare is a commodity, and any commodity is going to be rationed in a capitalist economy. Is it not rationing when yo
59 cmf : Everything needs to be monitored so it doesn't go haywire. One thing to look out for is when people call for not doing something that is positive bec
60 bjorn14 : That argument is a disingenuos one, it's like telling him not to eat the meal he paid for. At some level they will, whether it be subtle or overt. If
61 flipdewaf : "It is our choices… that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities" Albus Dumbledore:Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Not sure wha
62 starbuk7 : Funny how people talk here and group so many people into categories. You blast the GOP for this and that, you blast Christians for this or that, you
63 casinterest : This is irrelevant to the point I am making about the GOP and it's Fake News Network. You are trying to equate a soup kitchen and Charity with the do
64 starbuk7 : Sure they do, and they DO NOT include health care and welfare. Believe it or not those two items are not listed in the constitution as being provided
65 PHX787 : You completely contradicted your earlier arguments. If healthcare is a commodity, it SHOULD NOT be controlled by the government. If a private health
66 casinterest : But the states have a problem in that hey can't run budget deficits, so taking these items on in the states doesn't make sense without the Federal go
67 starbuk7 : Who exactly do you think I am referring to, I pay FEDERAL taxes and they have not gone down. I have the numbers to prove it. Everyone who is able to
68 AirframeAS : No they have not. They have either been kind of steady or is going up.
69 Mir : Sounds like the sort of decision a private insurance company would be making as well. Perfectly solvent insurance companies refuse to cover certain p
70 casinterest : FICA is Federal, and it has gone down. Working at what? When we had the recession, employers stopped paying people to work. Social Security and Medic
71 AirframeAS : Mine has gone nowhere but UP. That also has gone up as well. And I'm not married at all with zero kids. My entire withholding taxes from my paycheck
72 casinterest : And you are comparing FICA and Fed, and no salary increase? That is your withholding ,and not your final tax. If you changed your claims on the W-4 a
73 tugger : OK, so what amount of "monitored socialism" do you find acceptable? At least we know that some level of socialism is acceptable to you (but it of cou
74 Maverick623 : The stock market has not "tanked". It suffered a slight loss, which is COMPLETELY NORMAL FOR A STOCK MARKET. OOOOHHHH. 45 whole companies (out of the
75 AirframeAS : Yup.
76 casinterest : So in the past 4 years (even the last year not withstanding inflation ), your taxes are up? If that is the case you need to go discuss it with the fi
77 AirframeAS : I'm not talking about the last four years. I'm talking about 2011 and 2012 comparison.
78 casinterest : See what happens when you jump in the middle and change the parameters around. Either way, the only thing that has changed in 2011 and 2012 has nothi
79 AirframeAS : I'm not jumping parameters around. I was never ever talking about the last 4 years. YOU DID. Not me. I was taking specifically comparing 2011 and 201
80 casinterest : I don't , but it isn't because tax rates went up. So don't try to claim otherwise.
81 AirframeAS : So are you saying my paychecks are lying to me? Seriously? Time to move on, Casinterest..... I know what my paychecks are. You don't. Move on.
82 casinterest : Paychecks only reflect withholding, not your final tax bill, but I can tell that debating the difference is past the depth of the tax discussion that
83 par13del : Ah no, some states do, others have chosen to pass balance budget amendments because they recognize and accept the negative effects of running deficit
84 Newark727 : The other thing that happens though, whether a balanced budget is forcing the cuts or a general lack of cash is forcing the cuts, is that you stop be
85 par13del : Well money is not really the problem is it, it is rumoured that the USA at the Federal and State level spend more money on education than most other
86 bjorn14 : Curious that they waited until after the election. Good thing your company wasn't on that list.
87 Post contains links and images SmittyOne : I don't have "the" solution, but a good start would be to leave the religious mumbo-jumbo out of politics, and stop dragging us down rabbit holes on
88 Newark727 : And other, poorly managed cities, municipalities, and states are either bankrupt or nearly so. Like I was trying to say, it's not so much an inabilit
89 par13del : I may accept the financial aspect but surely you don't believe that the Fed is devoid of idealogical principal? Deficit spending has been on a contin
90 PHX787 : Usually it's just a procedure that is either voluntary, such as a breast enhancement procedure.
91 Post contains images SmittyOne : It occurs to me that what we really need are Breast Panels to ensure consistent quality in this area
92 Post contains links bjorn14 : Hostess (maker of Twinkies, DingDongs) might liquidate their business on 11/16 costing 18K jobs. http://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/art...cision-expecte
93 Post contains images Mir : Pfff, not even a nuclear war can get rid of those things. Of course, if you read the article you'll see that it has nothing to do with any government
94 Post contains images SmittyOne : That's Michelle's fault
95 Dreadnought : Nobody is. It's the Union which is the problem here. The company is already under bankruptcy protection. The company’s delivery drivers are Teamste
96 flipdewaf : The only thing more upsetting to some republicans than a black man in the white house is that maybe a woman wears the trousers!
97 Mir : Posting it in the thread about how companies might have to lay people off under Obama isn't trying to pin it on Obama? -Mir
98 aloges : Sad, but true to an extent - the "birther" nonsense is built on avoiding racial terms and slurs through calling Obama a Kenyan.
99 Dreadnought : It's broadly related, but nothing in the post or related articles pinned it on Obama in any way. You just blew up your own logic. Not that i buy into
100 bjorn14 : And when someone is legit in opposing Obama's policies, everyone SCREAMS they are a racist. Thus immunizing him ftom ANY criticsm.
101 flipdewaf : I'm not sure I have seen that to be honest, do you mean like Ali G used to say? Fred
102 DeltaMD90 : Actually I've seen it a lot too. Just go into a thread, there will be a discussion of his policies, and then someone will say "blah blah blah, some p
103 Mir : It's not at all related. The strike didn't happen because Obama won the election. Hostess's business model isn't failing because Obama won the electi
104 Dreadnought : On that we agree. I said it's broadly related because it is a post-election layoff scenario, but in this case it is more of a coincidence than anythi
105 tugger : Dreadnought, just curious but why can't you simply say:"in this case it is only coincidence and nothing else.". Why even the intimation that there is
106 Dreadnought : I'm not a lawyer. Stop being so picky.
107 tugger : Come on Dread, you are very smart and very capable and well spoken, and you have "picked at" others for similar things. You and I both know and under
108 Post contains images StarAC17 : IIRC the mandate for a small business to have health care to their staff only takes effect if that company has more than 50 full time employees. The
109 Post contains images aloges : How so? It was known and repeatedly proven that Barack Obama is a natural-born American. I dimly recall that McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone
110 Dreadnought : No, the difference boiled down to McCain being born of 2 American parents on an overseas military base, which in the past the Courts have allowed to
111 charlienorth : What the hell kind of dumb shit statement is that???? Your are showing prejudice and ignorance with crap like that
112 flipdewaf : LOL, it called taking the piss and it only makes I funnier to see people biting. Have I touched a nerve? Fred
113 Post contains links aloges : You might well be eligible: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html "Military cover" doesn't seem to be a requirement. Because
114 Dreadnought : Citizenship in general has nothing to do with "Natural Born Citizen". Naturalized citizens can't become president. The office of President is the onl
115 StarAC17 : IIRC the requirements to be a natural born citizen is if you have an American parent even if overseas. McCain has a bigger case for this because his
116 Post contains links and images aloges : Did you even read beyond the headline? Seriously... it's right there! How so? I said nothing of the kind. All I was talking about was the scrutiny th
117 Pu : Why doesn't the crowd who thinks America has healthcare capitalism right now get this point? America largely already has "socialised medicine," that'
118 StarAC17 : That is the biggest reason healthcare in the US is more expensive than other first world countries that spend about half the cost and get better aggr
119 Maverick623 : If you are eligible for citizenship at birth, you are a natural-born citizen. Military or other official "cover" is not required. Since you claim to
120 Dreadnought : First of all, the Supreme Court has never clearly decided this issue. The U.S. State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual states that "it has never be
121 PHX787 : Guys, this has turned into a huge debate about what the legality of citizenship is. If you want to keep this thread open, let's stay on topic....and s
122 bjorn14 : And now F/T is classed as 29 hours...the new Obama math. He wasn't even born in the PCZ, he was born at the local hospital in ONX about 1.5k fron the
123 Mir : If that's true, then Michelle Bachmann should not have been running for president. But she was. So I'm not sure that's really correct. -Mir
124 bjorn14 : She was natural born she acquired her Swiss citizenship through her husband which she has renounced.
125 Geezer : Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs Excuse me ! See that ? That's what this discussion is SUPPOSED to be about. This is NOT a "how to" about
126 cmf : So you want government to stay out of companies but employers should be free to dictate the employees lives....
127 Pu : The government kills people legally in Hobby Lobby's home state of Oklahoma (and most others where it operates, especially Texas), the government has
128 Geezer : As for......"So you want government to stay out of companies".........Absolutely, positively ! That is just exactly what I want ! (And I'll tell you
129 cws818 : How do you know that? Are you sure?
130 Geezer : Let me get this straight........."the government kills people legally in Oklahoma (and Texas)" ; and what exactly does "100K of Iraqis and Afghanis,
131 FlyDeltaJets : It's a very nice gesture but it doesnt make good business sense. I think that he could help his business by not letting the busiest buisness day go u
132 PHX787 : I have relatives who work for the insurance companies, and I also have some experience with surgeries before. A relative of mine wanted a nose job. S
133 seb146 : The market tanked with little to no regulation under Bush, but that was Obama's fault, somehow. Yet, the market made a come back with regulations und
134 cmf : Then you have not read history. Look back at history. It wasn't very good when government left companies (mostly) alone. No-one who understands busin
135 iowaman : I feel we all can agree this thread has ran its course and is now a back and forth argument and off-topic discussion. It is probably best to archive t
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