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CIA Director Petraeus Resigns.  
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7196 posts, RR: 86
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1860 times:
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Nice of him to wait until Obama was re-elected. I don't see why he couldn't have kept his post and got counseling for his affair. Sources expect the President to offer the top spy boss position to Deputy Mike Morrell.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/natio...xtra-Marital-Affair-178159541.html

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
I don't see why he couldn't have kept his post and got counseling for his affair.

Normally, I'd agree, but you really don't want your CIA director involved in something that could be an opportunity for blackmail. Disloyalty is a problem in that position.

A real shame, though.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6534 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Do you think one day the US populace will stop caring about the sex life of their politicians ? I mean caring in a bad way, reading on it in glossy magazines is fine.

A top minister of the French government, Minister of Industrial Renewal Arnaud Montebourg, a media darling and popular candidate in the socialist primary (I voted for him), has been dating prominent TV and print journalist Audrey Pulvar for years, making it to many such magazines. Just yesterday she kissed another journalist to show their support for marriage equality : could you imagine that all situation in the US ?



The red rose is a symbol for socialism.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1861 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
Do you think one day the US populace will stop caring about the sex life of their politicians ?

I would generally agree with you, but in this case, this is the head of the CIA. Do we really want that hanging over his head?

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Disloyalty is a problem in that position.

The other question is who he was having an affair with. Supposing I ever find myself in the position of his wife, I don't know whether forgiveness will be an option (one of these situations you have to be in to really know, I think), but I certainly can't imagine that forgiveness would extend to staying at the same job if that is where the affair began.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6534 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
I would generally agree with you, but in this case, this is the head of the CIA. Do we really want that hanging over his head?

It only hangs because revealing the affair would be damaging.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
The other question is who he was having an affair with

His biographer, apparently. Not a great idea to bang a journalist when you are a nation's top spy.

[Edited 2012-11-09 14:35:30]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1861 times:
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Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
Nice of him to wait until Obama was re-elected. I don't see why he couldn't have kept his post and got counseling for his affair.

You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation?

Seriously?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8190 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

I'm sorry to see him go, but appreciate him waiting until after the election before acting. I also appreciate his service to the nation over many years and hope his personal life can be returned to a better relationship.

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
I don't see why he couldn't have kept his post and got counseling for his affair.

There are positions in government where a security clearance is taken away when things like this happen. Head of the CIA is clearly one of those jobs.

Now I believe it is time to let the guy move into private life. We can have a lot of respect for his service, but now we should leave him and his family alone.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):
Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
Nice of him to wait until Obama was re-elected. I don't see why he couldn't have kept his post and got counseling for his affair.

You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation?

That's what I thought when I first saw the story. An affair is just a convenient excuse for something else, either his own dissatisfaction or the administration's.


User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):
You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation?

Seriously

I'm sure all kinds of batshit crazy right-wingers are working on various crackpot theories as we speak but until we hear, via the usual channels, what they are this story is pretty much all we have to go on.

Petraeus seemed to be well respected across the political spectrum so in that sense it's a pity he has to resign.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Normally, I'd agree, but you really don't want your CIA director involved in something that could be an opportunity for blackmail.

More importantly, he's the director of the CIA and he can't even keep his own affair a secret.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):
You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation?

Yes. There's no reason to start all the conspiracy theories until there's actual evidence.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

I'm pretty sure on the list of "woman the Director of the CIA shouldn't have an affair with" journalist comes right after that "that sweet secretary working at the Chinese embassy".

User currently onlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):

You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation?

Seriously?

And here we go!

The timing is iffy to be sure but I think it was for the best for everyone involved that the announcement happened after the election rather than before- you don't want a politicized CIA or military beyond what we have already. And people have in resigned over nothing more than affairs in the past, so it's not out of the question. But if it is in fact related to his job performance we'll probably know soon enough, there are enough people with an interest in finding the full story and enough people who'd probably be happy to talk about it.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3574 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Somebody has to take the fall for the clusterf**k that is our involvement in Libya. Beyond that, there are far greater considerations when people with top secret clearence are screwing around. It is a well known door for spys.

User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Just curious, is it illegal to have an affair? I know in some countries it is, This is what wikipedia says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery
United States
In the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute books (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan)[51] to a $10 fine (Maryland) to a Class B misdemeanor (New York)[52] to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[53] In the state of South Carolina, the criminal fine for adultery is a fine no greater than $500 and/or imprisonment for no more than one year [South Carolina code 16-15-60], yet the divorce laws codified at South Carolina Code Section 20-3-60(A) deny alimony to the adulterous spouse, which in some cases can cost the adulterous spouse millions of dollars in future income.[54]
In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[14] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[55] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[56]


In Indian law, adultery is defined as sex between a man and a woman without the consent of the woman's husband. The man is prosecutable and can be sentenced for up to five years (even if he himself was unmarried) whereas the married woman cannot be jailed.[46] Men have called the law gender discrimination in that women cannot be prosecuted for adultery[47] and the National Commission of Women has criticized the British era law of being anti-feminist as it treats women as the property of their husbands and has consequentially recommended deletion of the law or reducing it to a civil offense. The Government is yet to act.[48] Extramarital sex without the consent of one's partner can be a valid grounds for monetary penalty on government employees, as ruled by the Central Administrative Tribunal.[49]


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6414 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 8):

You really think he's going to put his wife through this public humiliation to hide something else????



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):
You really think it was an affair that prompted his resignation

Yep, SOS Clinton will be right behind him as wanting to spend more time with her family.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
nd. It is a well known door for spies

She's a journalist, 'nuff said.

The story is that AG Eric Holder knew (via FBI). And that means the White House knew. So why did the Obama Administration let a compromised asset stay (until after the election)?

[Edited 2012-11-09 15:56:24]


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11214 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Normally, I'd agree, but you really don't want your CIA director involved in something that could be an opportunity for blackmail. Disloyalty is a problem in that position.

This is exactly correct, and probably the top reason for the resignation.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
Yep, SOS Clinton will be right behind him as wanting to spend more time with her family.

Clinton had already hinted that she was stepping down as Secy of State at the end of the term, which is quite typical. Few Secretaries of State or Attorneys General have ever stayed for two terms. (Bush43: Powell/Rice, Clinton: Christopher/Albright, Reagan: Haig/Schultz/Baker, Nixon: Rogers/Kissinger)

So yeah... history says this isn't a conspiracy.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
The story is that AG Eric Holder knew (via FBI). And that means the White House knew.

1) Holder is not in the White House
2) The Story is not cited anywhere in your post. Gotta link?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
And that means the White House knew.

Do you have any idea how much information enters the White House every day from various government agencies?

More than can be read by the entire White House staff.

Information provided to the President is only a very small part of that total.

Back during the Iran-Contra Congressional Hearings, Adm Poindexter was asked why he did not tell the President certain specifics about the Regan administration trading with Iran. He said because he wanted the President to be able to deny knowledge of the details.

That happens a lot in major corporations and in government.

If Holder knew, until he had proof positive, he would not tell the President. He might tell the National Security Advisor and leave the decision to tell or not tell the President to him. Holder isn't exactly the President's favorite cabinet secretary these days.

----------------------------------------

Here is something else to thing about - Petraeus would be eligible for about $14,000 per month in retirement pay. A quick internet search says in 1999 the $5,000 per year limit for retired officers employed in civilian federal government positions was removed.

Laws to protect military spouses entitle his wife to take half of his retirement pay if they divorce. He needs to work hard on patching up his marriage. He also probably pays $910 per month for the Survivor Benefit Plan - which allows his wife to receive 55% of his retirement pay if he dies before her. If they divorce, he will not be allowed to cancel that deduction.

So if his marriage breaks up - his wife gets $7,000 per month before taxes and he gets $6,090 per month put pays taxes on $7,000.

[Edited 2012-11-09 16:33:42]

User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 8):

You really think he's going to put his wife through this public humiliation to hide something else????

The Company comes before anyone, or anyone's wife. It is perfectly plausible that it is only an affair however if the White House was happy with him I doubt they'd really let him resign over it and it is a politically expedient and morally righteous way for them to get rid of him if they wanted to. Most likely just a reshuffle after the Benghazi incident which should not have happened.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

... you know how skeptical I am of whether there was a Benghazi cover up, but it does seem kinda suspicious/coincidental that he'd resign now


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1546 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Sad to see him go down like this. He is one of the best generals we have had in a VERY long time. Probably since Eisenhower/Patton/McAurther. Marital or non-marital issues aside, my hat is off to him.


It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12352 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Just read that the CEO-in-waiting for Lockheed Martin just resigned because the process that was screening him for the CEO job discovered he was dipping his pen in the company inkwell. The reports about Petraeus seem to indicate he was boinking his biographer, who wasn't in his chain of command at the time.

I guess this means we need to wait to find out who #3 is.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8190 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
The story is that AG Eric Holder knew (via FBI). And that means the White House knew. So why did the Obama Administration let a compromised asset stay (until after the election)?

One of the news stories was that the FBI was given a "tip" and started an investigation.

I have a feeling that the progress of the FBI investigation was the main factor in everyone else's schedule. Neither Holder nor anyone in the White House was going to touch this bomb while the election was on the table.

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
This is exactly correct, and probably the top reason for the resignation.

The CIA is one of those government agencies that will have a lot of very important rules and regulations. It is the duty of the DIrector to uphold those rules and regulations - not break them.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

What is interesting is that this biographer was being investigated by the FBI for allegations she was trying to get into his confidential e-mail accounts. That brought out the alleged affair. To let someone even get near that is cause to be fired/resigned. Problem with many rich/powerful people is that they usually can get away with affairs and all kinds of bad stuff but in this day of the Internet, Twitter and 'gotcha' media you can't get away with it.

25 seb146 : But, that does not sell. It does not sing. The bottom line is what drives FOX and the right-wing media. Every hour there will be something new and th
26 Mir : Yes. Petraeus has always struck me as an honorable man. If he didn't have an affair, why would he allow his name to be sullied by saying that he had,
27 Maverick623 : As director of the CIA, he should have known that NOTHING stays a secret for long.
28 Post contains images scbriml : And they're off... But it wouldn't be a conspiracy theory if facts were involved. So they could win the election, dummy. It's all part of the liberal
29 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : The woman is not your ordinary journalist/reporter. Here are Paula Kranz' credentials: Paula Broadwell is a research associate at Harvard University
30 Revelation : And apparently worth a roll in the hay. I wonder whose idea it was?
31 Post contains links MadameConcorde : The mistress --> Paula Broadwell Quite nice looking in fact... which the wifey apparently isn't. Look here: Wednesday January 25, 2012 Paula Broad
32 rfields5421 : President Obama has absolutely nothing to gain politically or personally from the resignation. It actually hurts him more than it could possibly help
33 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Why was Obama hiding this Petraeus situation until after the election same as they also hid the US drone attack by Iran?
34 rfields5421 : Have you seen a timeline about when the affair occurred and when the FBI determined there was enough evidence to inform the Attorney General? Have you
35 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : Lt. Col. Ralph Peters On Petraeus: "Timing Is Just Too Perfect" LT. COL. RALPH PETERS: The timing is just too perfect for the Obama administration. J
36 Ken777 : Wich makes it all the more amazing that she participated in the affair. Surely she understood that it would end up in the public view. Emails were th
37 rfields5421 : You need to quote a credible source rather than a Soviet intel specialist who has been wrong, wrong, wrong in his political commentary over the past
38 Ken777 : I'll agree with that, but I believe that there are some situations where the AG will be advised of an investigation that has been started. Not for po
39 Post contains links Ken777 : Just spotted this - a pretty good indication why the FBI got involved in hte first place: [quote The collapse of the dazzling career of CIA Director D
40 Aesma : Director of the CIA and not able to use a random email account and cryptography ?
41 rfields5421 : No. As a senior military officer, and more importantly as Director of the CIA - he would be required to use an e-mail account to which his agency had
42 bjorn14 : Just a hunch, but I think Petraeus was set up because this affair happened in a flash (less than a month). If push ever came to shove in the Benghazi
43 Aesma : Well I'm not saying he should use a random account in general, just that he should have used one with the woman, and of course not on CIA property bu
44 rfields5421 : The classified material agreements I signed while in the US Navy were not on his security clearance level, nor his command level. And they were long
45 rfields5421 : If he has something on the President, they would have done everything possible to cover this up and keep him in office. This resignation does not dis
46 Ken777 : Do we really know how long the actual affair was going on? Do we really care? Let's be blunt - he was caught in an unacceptable situation and it was
47 DeltaMD90 : While I agree we should be staying out of others'/politicians' personal lives, he did use official computers/emails for inappropriate use. If he had
48 Revelation : Indeed, but the core issue isn't his use of e-mail, but the fact that he put himself into a position to be subject to blackmail. I suppose if he was
49 bjorn14 : I think some A.netter's tagline is perfect. "It takes 20 years to build a reputation, 5 minutes to destroy it"
50 Post contains images scbriml : You know, it completely fits in with... Damn, this is going to be a long four years.
51 DeltaMD90 : Hyperactive penises have plagued humanity forever. It's only human. He should take his punishment (as he is now) and move on
52 rfields5421 : Information is surfacing today that the threatening e-mails and the investigation started about June or July. From CNN and FOX - both use the same qu
53 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : I sort of agree with you there, however I don't think this will be going away anytime soon. BTW Second woman identified and named. http://www.smh.com
54 D L X : There are an awful lot of moving parts here. Gonna be hard to demagogue this. Given that, I wonder what Fox News is going to do? Because we know they
55 Flighty : It's too easy to just blame men for everything, though. On a gut level, the lady seems extremely creepy and ambitious, while Petraeus generally prove
56 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : The youtube video where Ms Kranz-Broadwell gives her talk at the U of Colorado symposium has been deleted. Part of it is here. But youtube will be sc
57 Gatorman96 : For some reason, I think that between being the supreme allied commander in Afghanistan and director of the CIA, Petraues wasn't find time to stop by
58 Gatorman96 : Using CIA assets to hide an affair would be SIGNIFICANTLY worse than the affair itself.
59 Revelation : In general, yes, but here we're talking about a West Point grad who rose through the ranks and ended up as a four star general who was in charge of m
60 don : From Jay Leno: The head of the CIA and former General David Petraeus has resigned because of an extramarital affair. So guys, let that be a lesson for
61 Ken777 : Unfortunately the General's Privates were pointed at a married lady, which isn't very bright either. The reality is that Petraeus is a married man -
62 Revelation : Yes. I didn't realize this when I wrote the above. Another dereliction - poor judge of character with regard to his mistresses, although she was/is a
63 Post contains links fxramper : ABC News is reporting Petraeus could face criminal charges and that AG Holder knew about this months a go and failed to disclose. http://abcnews.go.co
64 Post contains links rfields5421 : I disagree with that as some kind of failure or anything unusual or underhanded. From the article you linked: I don't see Holder's name anywhere in t
65 DeltaMD90 : This is sure a mess... I don't really pay attention to mainstream media outlets (for good reason) but are there any crazy conspiracy theories flying a
66 rfields5421 : 1) Petraeus was forced to resign because he had information on Benghazi that would show the President was a liar. To keep him from testifying before
67 DeltaMD90 : I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories, but honestly, I could see this. It's just politics, nothing far-fetched. Of course I'm not gonna accuse any
68 Post contains links seb146 : Wait... what? http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_story.html Eric Cantor (R)-Virginia knew before the election but didn't s
69 bjorn14 : And this same AG said on CNN he found it highly unlikely that the WH didn't know.
70 Revelation : Let's face it, this the kind of stuff the tabloids and the Hollywood producers love. You've got a man in power taken down by his inability to control
71 mbmbos : ...and if they did know? Investigations are usually kept quiet until all the facts are gathered. And if the resignation was delayed until after the e
72 Flighty : Marriage vows count for women like Paula Broadwell just as much as with men like Petraeus. I am not sure why you single out marriage vows as a male r
73 Ken777 : I believe he might have understood that the FBI agent briefing him did so outside the policies of the FBI. At that point any comments he could have m
74 seb146 : Yes, that's true. I just wonder how long it will be before we hear "Cantor was threatened by the Obama administraion." I have zero faith in the right
75 Revelation : As above: so indeed if he was single and she was not, it'd be adulterous and thus a concern. At the time I wrote #59, it was not widely being reporte
76 Post contains links bjorn14 : So if this is ying and yang then you have total faith in the liberal media...tells me all I need to know. Apparently, Petraeus personally went to BEN
77 DeltaMD90 : The reason I (and I think others) are coming down harder on Petraeus is because he's the man with the high profile job and reputation. Had he been a
78 seb146 : No, but the "liberal" media is at least questioning everything instead of just going along with what the doners are telling them. The right-wing medi
79 Post contains links fxramper : It's get's more twisted. DC Park Police had a jogger turn in Broadwell's lost NC driver's license... http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...ll-driver-
80 Post contains images Flighty : LOL, well, if you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense yeah
81 ltbewr : One serious issue this investigation has brought up is how the government can have access with few judicial and constitutional checks as to e-mail acc
82 bjorn14 : Ms. Broadwell is currently a Lt. Col. in the Army Reserve.
83 Revelation : I agree. One account I read said that the FBI did get a warrant to look at the e-mail, but that warrant came from a prosecutor not a judge, which did
84 rfields5421 : A prosecutor obtains a warrant from a judge. The old movie process of police or FBI going directly to the judge doesn't happen any more. The prosecut
85 Post contains links fxramper : I don't always agree with Mr. Krauthammer but he makes a solid point in this article about how the administration wanted to hold the affair over Patra
86 mbmbos : There are no "solid points" in this article. Just conjecture. Very strained, contrived conjecture. I guess we're still trying to find a path toward i
87 DeltaMD90 : I've defended the President many times before in Benghazi threads, but I would not be surprised to see a political aspect in this case. I really woul
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