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What's Next For The Republican Party?  
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8437 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

It seemed that Republicans where quite surprised at the loss of the election in accordance to their pollsters. Mitt Romney was dealt a land slide electoral victory and yes a plurality of the votes and they lost 8 seats in the House and 2 seats in the Senate.

It seems like some conservative commentators around the block like Bill Kristol are saying raise taxes on the rich, David Frum talked about the "conservative entertainment machine", and Sean Hannity is talking about a "road to citizenship".

Do Republicans have to rethink the way the party is organized? How are they going to expand their base beyond the middle to older age white dude who watches Fox news, listens to Rush and thinks all liberals are the spawn of the Devil.


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
323 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5387 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

Well for one, I think the parts has to admit and recognize that the "Moderate Republican" does exist and is important. Then the party needs to actually start to pander to them instead of the more extreme elements of the party.

For me personally I wish the party would go and focus on the fiscal elements and leave the social elements alone (OK fine keep a few that really seem to define them - absolute gun freedom and abortion seem to be the biggest) but the others... review carefully and dump 'em if they don't absolutely have a fiscal element that demands them.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Well for one, I think the parts has to admit and recognize that the "Moderate Republican" does exist and is important.

It's not so simple. May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I honestly don't think we would've seen a President Bachmann or President Santorum. I don't think it's an issue of whether a candidate is moderate or conservative, I think it matters if they're seen as a strong leader, not whacky/extreme, and true to their values. Having traditional values can put a candidate into the "extreme" category depending on how much they campaign on them, so I don't think that is what the Republicans need.

When we hear the call for a "strong, conservative candidate" I think people are talking about a strong leader who has fiscal conservative views on the economy. When you hear "moderate" Republican, it seems like they either don't care too much about social issues or they aren't too strong on the fiscal beliefs... neither of which are going to generate the votes.

In 2016, I can see a variety of candidates winning... from a "conservative" like Christie to a "moderate" like Huntsman. You can see how these two differ from a Santorum (conservative) or a Romney (moderate.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is a lot more to a candidate than the label "conservative" or "moderate," and the GOP doesn't NEED a conservative or moderate in 2016, they need a STRONG and effective leader. JMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21425 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

McCain's chances went downhill once he attached Palin and her more right-wing ideology to his ticket (not that he had much of a chance anyway, since he had the stigma of being from Bush's party to overcome). And Romney was pretty much Bush incarnate.

Remember also that several tea party favorites who just made it into Congress in the last election were sent packing this time around. That's an indication that moving back to the right isn't the way to go for the GOP.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

Neither were really moderates. Sure, they were moderate compared to Rick Santorum, but they weren't really moderate relative to most Americans. When your solution to illegal immigration is "self deportation" of 12 million people, you are not a moderate. When you call 47% of American's "victims", you are not a moderate.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19300 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
It's not so simple. May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

Yes. Very good point. So let me put this one to you: Do you know how many people I heard saying something like: "I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

I heard it an awful lot. Seriously, the GOP scares a lot of people. I promise you that eliminating all the moderates and just keeping extremists aboard isn't going to win you anything. Do you honestly believe that ANY of the other candidates (leaving Mr. Huntsman aside) would have done better than Mr. Romney in the election? I'd love to have seen a Santorum/Obama election. I think Mr. Obama might have carried a full 80% of the popular vote. With Mrs. Bachmann, maybe 85-90. But even Mr. Gingrich (who is merely "loony" with his Moonbase, rather than stark raving insane) might have done as well as 35% or 40%.

Mr. Romney's loss was less about Mr. Romney and more about his party. I have to agree with the Republicans who say that they lost more than Mr. Obama won. On the other hand, the GOP had better pay careful attention in the House. The popular vote would have handed the Democrats the House. It is only gerrymandering (and something really needs to be done about that on a national level; it's out of hand on both sides) that kept them in the majority. They also lost two seats in the senate.

If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is), then I'd encourage the GOP to keep up doing what they're doing and see where that lands them in 2014 and 2016.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
"I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

      I had a hard time deciding this election, and a major strike against Romney was rewarding the GOP for what I believe was extremely bad behavior. I mean there is the crap which every politician/political party engages in, and then there is the GOP 2010-2012. I voted straight Republican in 2008 and I am ashamed of what they have become.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I think Mr. Obama might have carried a full 80% of the popular vote. With Mrs. Bachmann, maybe 85-90. But even Mr. Gingrich (who is merely "loony" with his Moonbase, rather than stark raving insane) might have done as well as 35% or 40%.

I'd think they'd carry the ~30% of registered Republicans but yeah, I agree, it would have been a landslide. Rick Santorum scared the **** out of me

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is), then I'd encourage the GOP to keep up doing what they're doing and see where that lands them in 2014 and 2016.

I think a lot of it lies in what the TP started out as and what they have become. I loved their overall message in the beginning... smaller government and fiscal responsibility. I'm sure almost everyone agrees with the fiscal responsibility part, and although many would disagree with smaller government, it as at least a rational, respectable position. But now, you are right, the TP is indeed far right and has a strong religious influence. I do see some people identify themselves as TP but could care less about social issues and are strong believers in the fiscal side...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I honestly don't think we would've seen a President Bachmann or President Santorum. I don't think it's an issue of whether a candidate is moderate or conservative, I think it matters if they're seen as a strong leader, not whacky/extreme, and true to their values. Having traditional values can put a candidate into the "extreme" category depending on how much they campaign on them, so I don't think that is what the Republicans need.

When we hear the call for a "strong, conservative candidate" I think people are talking about a strong leader who has fiscal conservative views on the economy. When you hear "moderate" Republican, it seems like they either don't care too much about social issues or they aren't too strong on the fiscal beliefs... neither of which are going to generate the votes.

I agree. I don't like the more socially conservative wing of the GOP.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is)

Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

It is a powerful message, which, when unpolluted by a social agenda, could well lead to victory for conservatives, as Delta said. The left recognized that, and with their minions in the media, launched a concerted campaign to paint the TP as "extremists". They were helped also by much smaller movements which called themselves "Tea Parties" but who completely missed the point and included things like gay marriage into their platforms.

This propaganda campaign succeeded. Nowadays, when pollsters ask about it, the TP has only a 25% or so favorability rating. Part of that blame goes to people like Bachmann, who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it. I remember being at an early TP event where she was invited to speak, and people all around me were appalled at the fact that she was missing the point - The TP was not meant to be a platform for/against social issues. It was to demand that the federal government stop spending us into oblivion - that's it. I was in one of the very first organizational meetings for the TP, even before Obama became president, when the big issue was the Wall Street bailout. We hoped that many Democrats would join us. They're not all stupid. And I blame people like Bachmann for ruining the movement's message and momentum, as well as the media which pointed to her as being characteristic of the TP.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21425 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Part of that blame goes to people like Bachmann, who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it.

Apparently, who hijacked it to such an extent that the Tea Party Express invited her to deliver a national response to Obama's 2011 State of the Union address.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it.

This is the crux of the issue, right here everyone. This is why the TP has such a bad reputation today.

I'm with you Dreadnought, I really value the TP's call for fiscal responsibility. But I really do not care which banner it's under, and right or wrongly, the TP's name is tarnished. It just highlights the disconnect--you may indeed vote for a TP member, not because of the social issues, but you place more importance on the economy. Someone then labels you a Christian extremist because of the social issues tagged along... it ain't fair, but at the same time, you can at least see where they are coming from. It's a very sticky situation.

Well, since this is an aviation site, I'm sure this analogy works: Delta is the GOP and the Song is the TP. It was an interesting idea but it really didn't work out and ended up negative for Delta/the GOP. BUT, when Song was disbanded, parts of it went into the Delta system... maybe the TP will go away and the fiscal responsibility portion will be retained by the GOP.

lol, if that doesn't make sense, don't mind me, I'm very tired



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13012 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

Support reasoned regulations as to the environment, businesses and corporations, especially 'wall street', but do ditch foolish and excessive ones.
Don't support men who have very sexist believes as to women, saying dumb things as to rape and are anti-abortion absolutists.
Moderate views as to Hispanics/Latinos, especially as to immigration, end support of 'papers please ID laws' and assure fair economic opportunity for them.
Stop trying to marginalize Blacks and the poor. Yes, insist on preventing abusive and wasteful spending, but don't go over the top, back off excessive voting ID laws, the gerryminding voting districts to marginalize them and eliminating moderate Affirmative Action rules..
Don't try to destroy public K-12 education. Don't take away or massively cut critical programs including as to collages as they need for survival to assure an advantage of the USA with a well and 'liberal' (open minded) educated workforce and citizenry. Move away from 'teach to the test' and excessive use of testing.
Accept moderately higher taxes on high income persons (at least returning to the pre-Bush 43 rates for those over $250K), higher short-term capital gains tax rates to discourage 'flipping' of stocks, real property, corporations.
Stop scaring Seniors and near future ones as to Social Security and Medicare but support moderate reforms to reduce waste, cut benefits to those getting high value pensions or have considerable cash retirement funds.
Work on problems with 'Obamacare' to improve it, perhaps limit penalties for not having health care coverage especially in using the IRS to enforce it and penalties on employers for not offering HC insurance.
Don't support the most radical loudmouth right-wing voices.
Consider cuts in overall Military spending, especially in costly equipment better designed for 'the last war', spend more on rebuilding our National Guard forces, who have lost huge amounts of equipment in deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and need at home when natural disasters strike (like Sandy). Support withdrawal from Afghanistan ASAP.
Moderate trade policies to bring back some jobs to the USA and prevent any more from leaving.
Knock off anti-union policies but do support pressure on all unions to clean up their internal corruptions and excessive support of bad members - workers.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19300 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I think a lot of it lies in what the TP started out as and what they have become. I loved their overall message in the beginning... smaller government and fiscal responsibility.

It's one thing to say "fiscal responsibility" and it's another thing to push to the brink of default. This is not anything that we have ever run into in the modern USA.

Fiscal responsibility means paying your bills, at the very least. So that does mean that if the taxes are the lowest they've ever been in history, maybe it's time to raise them on the people who are making more money than they ever have in history.

The Tea Party was about GOP rage at Obama and everything he stood for.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

A plurality in the senate? They lost two seats.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

Yeah, I knew you'd say that. So why is it that 100.0% of TPers that I ever met or interacted with (and there were a lot) were anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, and pro-gun? 100.0% No exceptions.

The Communists in China say that they are for liberation and the elimination of money and scarcity. That doesn't make it so. It's not what you SAY you're for; it's what you actually try to do.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
maybe the TP will go away and the fiscal responsibility portion will be retained by the GOP.

The Tea Party came about under very dubious circumstances. Namely the beginnings of the great recession. A single platform item never forms a party. The Tea Party naturally was carved mostly from the GOP which was trying to reclaim some sense of spending control. However it basically had no platform to start with. Taxed Enough Already made no sense when it was the lack of taxes that ruined any sort of "rainy day" fund for weathering the recession.

The Tea Party's sole was already formed from the GOP as they realized after 6-7 years of Bush, that the policies were no closer to paying off the defict. It caught fire under Obama and the sudden siezure of a spending liberal as the ultimate issue. It payed off well in 2010, however in 2012 many saw the Tea Party for what it was. Loud folks whose biggest danger was to the very republic they wanted to uphold with their threats of not raising the debt ceiling. They wanted to cut spending so hard it would cripple the economy. The current fiscal cliff shows that no one wants to cut spending that much and that hard.


From here , the GOP needs to get rid of some of it's very bad characteristics.
1. The Social Agenda (Some of the beliefs are great personal morals, they don't need to be in Government)
2. The Anti Intellectial Agenda (Global Warming, creationism) . Believe what you want to , but don't doubt science with quotes from a book written ages ago.
3. The anti-immigrant stances. There's a reason so many come to the US, and it isn't for the lack of jobs.



Not all of the above needs to be given up, but quite a few would be nice. The alternative is that the GOP goes away or splits up and becomes 2 parties.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Yeah, I knew you'd say that. So why is it that 100.0% of TPers that I ever met or interacted with (and there were a lot) were anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, and pro-gun? 100.0% No exceptions.

And I can truthfully say that your description fits none of the TP'ers I know (and helped organize). One or two at a time, perhaps, but not the neandrathals you describe.

While we are speaking of it, Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf", that it was not a grassroots movement. I can tell you first hand that it was. Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

[Edited 2012-11-12 20:00:34]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6568 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5653 times:
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Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

He won by a bigger margin in that GWB!!

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...resident-now-has-wind-at-his-back/

[Edited 2012-11-12 20:02:24]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf"

But it was astroturf. It was a substitute for the real thing that was supposed to make everyone OK with playing in a "Dome" away from the elements. However it wasn't the real thing, and it was tough and had maintenance issues, and albeit it was good for a storm, on a sunny day people didn't want to be in a Dome. Players didn't like the injuries. The tea party was never a grassroots movement , it was people looking for shelter from the storm the GOP rained down on them



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21425 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

Except that they didn't. This should really blow your mind: depending on how you want to look at the races, Democrats either won more votes for the House than Republicans by a small but not insignificant margine, or they tied. In other words, if you look at the nationwide vote, the country voted for both a Democratic president and a Democratic House of Representatives. And yet the House remains firmly in Republican control - that's gerrymandering for you.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19300 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
And I can truthfully say that your description fits none of the TP'ers I know (and helped organize).

Then maybe you live on an island somewhere in space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Par...e.2C_bigotry_and_public_perception

You can dismiss facts as liberal propaganda, but this is what TPers have done and said. Remember, what you DO AND SAY is important, not what you SAY you do and say.

I guarantee that if a group of Muslim men in traditional garb show up to the next TP rally, they will not get a warm welcome.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
While we are speaking of it, Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf", that it was not a grassroots movement. I can tell you first hand that it was. Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

Are you claiming you personally invented the Tea Party or took part in its invention?   

Ron Paul first used the term in 2007.

And see, this divorce from reality that you exemplify, the inability to take an honest look at yourself and WHY the TP lost this election for the GOP is why you are going to continue to damage the GOP until it becomes irrelevant. I just hope another party shows up to counterbalance the DNC.


User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5653 times:
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Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
2. The Anti Intellectial Agenda (Global Warming, creationism) . Believe what you want to , but don't doubt science with quotes from a book written ages ago.

But the book written ages ago is one of the biggest tools that the GOP use to spread fear among the voters.

Fred


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days ago) and read 5654 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

As Mir points out, this is purely because of gerrymandering of districts. You'll notice in the Senate, where there is no gerrymandering, the Democrats are in the majority.


User currently offlinejet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

The Republicans have, I think, two problems. The first and most important is that their positions on social issues are increasingly out of whack with the population and electorate at large. The second is that their fiscal policy doesn't seem to work as advertised - debt increased greatly under reagan/bush and then again under dubya while income inequality rose. I think these are the two main problems they face.

Add the fact that the cold war is over and nothing catastrophic happened from a terrorist stand point the past four years, they've shown themselves to be obstructionist to anything at odds with their dogma, and they'll take positions on scientific matters at odds with the facts. . . Then at the 'national' . . . .their reason to lead Is not sufficiently compelling, maybe worrying, and possibly frightening (see above posts).

If and when the debt gets under control and greatly reduced then I think their call of 'cut taxes to balance the budget' may once again entice enough votes and gain them the presidential office.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Yes. Very good point. So let me put this one to you: Do you know how many people I heard saying something like: "I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

Agreed, I think most Americans understood that electing Romney meant actually President Eric Cantor as he would have been a rubber stamp for congress and wouldn't stand up to the GOP.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Do you honestly believe that ANY of the other candidates (leaving Mr. Huntsman aside) would have done better than Mr. Romney in the election?

I think Gingrich would have done better (or a colossal failure) depending on how he ran his mouth during the campaign. Basically we know his baggage, he has more of a backbone than Romney did and wouldn't have gone with the "Just Trust me" attitude towards the American people that they didn't buy.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

I call    on that.

If that were the case where the hell were they when Obama's predecessor started two wars while cutting taxes, while starting a prescription drug program that was unfunded.

If Romney would have won and decided to stay the course of short term deficit spending to assist getting this economy back on its feet I bet you would not hear a peep about fiscal discipline from the tea party.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
If that were the case where the hell were they when Obama's predecessor started two wars while cutting taxes, while starting a prescription drug program that was unfunded.

People were indeed upset, but not to the same level. GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's. Also, if you will recall back to September and October of 2008, there were a lot of angry voices from the right protesting against the bailouts - which was the impotus behind the TP.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
If Romney would have won and decided to stay the course of short term deficit spending to assist getting this economy back on its feet I bet you would not hear a peep about fiscal discipline from the tea party.

And I bet you'd be wrong.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
People were indeed upset, but not to the same level. GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's. Also, if you will recall back to September and October of 2008, there were a lot of angry voices from the right protesting against the bailouts - which was the impotus behind the TP.

GW's policies caused the Obama deficits. That is where the logical falacy of the tea party is, they can't do basic finance and accounting.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
25 Dreadnought : GW created all the Federal welfare, unemployment benefits, AIFDC? Federal backing of mortgages, student loans, FICA, Solyndra? Obamaphones? I did not
26 casinterest : [quote=Dreadnought,reply=25]GW created all the Federal welfare, unemployment benefits, AIFDC? Federal backing of mortgages, student loans, FICA, Solyn
27 NBGSkyGod : The problem with the GOP is religion, not just nationally, but in the state/local governments as well. So many of the GOP candidates and agendas are b
28 Post contains links DocLightning : Except they do. And they are directly responsible for Mr. Obama's deficits. As it happens, the deficit is shrinking rapidly. It will shrink more rapi
29 D L X : Did you really just claim to be the founder of the Tea Party?
30 BMI727 : ...so this is your fault. The Republicans need a brown guy for next time. Or even better a brown lady. Exactly what they are isn't so important as lo
31 Post contains images tugger : They may have put forward "moderates" but they then spent a significant amount of time pandering to their more extreme elements trying to convince th
32 Dreadnought : You missed the point entirely, and made my point at the same time. The point was that most of the policies (if not all) that led to the huge deficits
33 FlyPNS1 : Very true, but then why do conservatives blame Obama for the deficits and make him out to be the primary cause? Certainly everybody benefited from th
34 casinterest : You countered your own Claim, I nissed no point. I landed square on the incompetance of the GOP and Tea Party in laying blame for the fiscall mess. G
35 D L X : Sure... because no one would ever see through that. Oh, it's a BROWN guy now... I guess they're not extreme anymore. You need numbers, not just one.
36 BMI727 : Just find someone who isn't white and they'll get more votes than they did before. All they have to do then is appeal to the middle and ignore social
37 mt99 : Bobby Jindal is brown. You think he would have faired any better? That has nothing to do with "whiteness"...
38 Dreadnought : Eight. I did not mention what we called ourselves. Frankly I can't remember, because it kept changing. What was Dick Armey's group's name and why doe
39 BMI727 : Only if he says the right things. The Republicans need to abandon everything to pander to the middle. Tell them what they want to hear. Voters are ge
40 mt99 : So its not about color , then? or is it? you need to make up your mind.. Whats wrong with that? that how you get votes, that how you win elections? D
41 BMI727 : It partly is. They could help themselves out a lot if they'd just stop seeming like the party of old, white guys. Even if they still are.
42 D L X : So you were misleading us when you were talking about your first hand observations saying
43 Dreadnought : I never said that I was there when they made that decision. Just that the groups were already in place and starting to network together.
44 Post contains images bjorn14 : I strongly disagree. Palin gave McCain a shot at winning. Before Palin, McCain was getting crowds of around 10K afterwards he was getting crowds of 5
45 casinterest : Go back and show me the Obama policies that caused 5 trillion. While you are at it, explain how Bush Left a Deficit of 1.2 trillion for the 2009 fisc
46 Mir : And alienated everyone else. That's the GOP's problem. -Mir
47 tugger : It's "the base" that the Republicans are playing to that needs to change. "Firing up" the fringe, the hardcore religious and socially conservative is
48 Post contains links NBGSkyGod : Clearly the GOP is at a crossroads. Recently many of the hardliners have changed their tones and are now focusing more on moderate ideals rather than
49 DeltaMD90 : I read it as he first met with people at Denny's. BREAK. Initial movements were on FB, that's where the name came from. I can see how it ran together
50 blrsea : Bobby Jindal & Haley won in the south because they gave up the religions they were born into and embraced Christianity. I remember reading somewh
51 Post contains links DocLightning : Um... the CBO? The 2009 deficit was about $1.3T It's now about 1.1 That's $200Bn in deficit reduction in three years. Even WITH the GOP refusing to a
52 BMI727 : The Republicans won't help themselves by finding a non-Christian, but they can pick up a ton of votes if they find someone who isn't white. Blacks an
53 DeltaMD90 : I see what you mean about getting a few "free" votes for not having a WASP, but honestly, the GOP has so many other issues I doubt having a black les
54 pu : Huge problem from the outside looking in, that is from a European perspective. There is the world. ...then there is the world as Rupert Murdoch, Shel
55 Ken777 : McCain lost to the Great Recession (as did Romney to a degree) and Palin was sort of a cheerleader who was very killed at handling conservative crowd
56 Post contains images StarAC17 : There is some merit to a lot of their positions and while at the present time Palin gave McCain a shot at winning until she opened her mouth and coul
57 DocLightning : No they aren't. They're liberal on economic and policy issues, including foreign policy. Guess who makes up the grunt troops on the ground? Yeah, the
58 Post contains images NBGSkyGod : This McCain lost in 2008 in a large part because people were tired of George W. Bush and the rich white GOP. Obama offered something completely diffe
59 Post contains links bjorn14 : ...and who would that be since Harry has had a majority for all those four years? Nancy Pelosi had a majority for two of those years too. That was th
60 NBGSkyGod : This is true, however, it's up to Congress to approve and amend the budget as they see fit, and that is where it all falls down. Neither side could a
61 Dreadnought : And.... explain to me why they couldn't simply say, "OK, no new taxes, let's budget with what we have"? You are telling me that because my boss refus
62 casinterest : It's not a joke. It is the responsibility of Government to continue operating even when Congress can't do it's job. The fact that the GOP is held hos
63 Post contains links Revelation : Watch Romney being 'unliked' in real time: http://disappearingromney.com/
64 tugger : Why do you pretend to not understand how Congress works? (I know you actually do and suspect you are just throwing out things to confuse things). A "
65 Post contains links PHLBOS : Here's another opinion piece from Matt Kibbe regarding the Tea Party with respect to last week's election results from Politico: http://www.politico.c
66 bjorn14 : Will you stop calling it Fake News, you're making yourself look like a name calling, bankrupt, knee jerk liberal. Stay classy. oh wait... Good. Now t
67 Dreadnought : It is the responsibility of the government (the executive branch in particular) to operate within the financial parameters dictated by Congress. If C
68 casinterest : I may be name calling but I am correct. Anything they report , you can't trust without corroborating stories from the MSM.
69 Post contains images Ken777 : How could Romney honestly disclose & discuss all the millions he made over the years that were put into "tax effective" program? Not possible. Th
70 Post contains links pu : My research is that no one has this fantasy, thus it is an accusation inaccurate of reality. The deficit is set to decline in 2013 and, assuming the
71 tugger : Sorry but just because I do not agree with every policy and plank of the Republican party does not make me "bad" or a "bad Republican" or a Democrat.
72 Post contains links Dreadnought : And you trust something from MSNBC or CNN without corroberation? Interesting Pew Research study here. MSNBC comes off as the worst of the lot. None o
73 tugger : Actually considering that news organizations are based in and generally depend on urban areas (large cities) for most of their revenue, they were rel
74 casinterest : I will always trust CNN more than I trust MSNBC or FNC ( There that should satisfy Bjorn, he can call ir what he wants, I'll call it what I want).
75 Revelation : Romney succumbed to the attack ads on his position at Bain, starting in the primaries (Gingritch's "King of Bain: When Romney came to Town", ironical
76 Post contains links D L X : Yup, and it's central to the topic of this thread. The GOP is losing because they are forcefully expelling people from the party. This is not a new t
77 Dreadnought : Dude, you need to stop believing everything the white house says. The reason the OMB (i.e. the Obama Administration) says that the deficit will go do
78 pu : Dude? Ok, fair enough, if the Obama proposals are based on optimistic GDP growth, the Republicans main negotiating point going forward is that the de
79 Dreadnought : I have no objection.
80 Post contains links 727LOVER : Electoral votes....the column on left is Rep 1972 520 17 1976 240 297 1980 489 49 1984 525 13 1988 426 111 1992 168 370 1996 159 379 2000 271 266 2004
81 casinterest : Ummm D's won in 76.
82 727LOVER : You missed this:
83 casinterest : Yep. my mistake. Interesting that CO was the tipping state this time. No Ohio as everyone thought.
84 pu : The Republicans haven't had a strong presidential vote performance in 24 years. For the two elections they won since then, they actually lost the pop
85 PHLBOS : Actually history speaks otherwise and I'll give you 2 prominent examples of such. 1. The late Senator Arlen Specter of PA, who died about a month or
86 tugger : Got any more? Two is not enough as there are many other factors involved with their switch and loss. And I am sure that you know that the idea of the
87 PHLBOS : I will give you an example of a Pro-Life Democrat being shunned by the DNC: The late former-Governor of PA, Robert P. Casey Sr. His tough stance on a
88 seb146 : So one guy not speaking at the Democratic National Convention one time 10 years ago? Really? That's all you got?
89 ATCtower : All the bullshit aside, this is exactly why the GOP is having issues. Candidates like Romney alienate the public and preach on a platform that many (
90 venus6971 : Give away phones, hats, and tshirts and promise everything and deliver nothing. Start partying with the Hollywood a-listers. Have Republicans buy the
91 Dreadnought : It worked for the Democrats, so why not?
92 Revelation : I get your point, but I'd point out that it was really the Tea Party who started attacking RINOs. Yes, they were a side effect of the bad economy, bu
93 DeltaMD90 : I disagree with the Democrats on many many issues, but there was more to the election than just "Barack-O-Claus..." Even from the losing side, the GO
94 pu : Part of getting all your news from the Republican entertainment complex is the tragic failure to recognise there are people other than yourselves who
95 Post contains images tugger : I am surprised Dread, that you took the idiot-bait. The Republican's already do all that was mentioned (well the voting element is just stupid flame-
96 Post contains images Revelation : It is the best excuse they can come up with to make themselves feel better. We on the right are the makers, they're the takers, of course they vote f
97 Post contains images Ken777 : When it comes to news I do trust them. But I can separate news programs from opinion shows. And I can look at both and see them bringing in some reas
98 Post contains images zippyjet : 1. Tugger, Right after the election former Mayor Rudy Giuliani said what you stated. He copied off of you 2. McCain and Romney may hve been a bit mod
99 Confuscius : Double down... tell the 47% to self-deport.
100 Mir : Compared to the crap that's come out of the GOP since the election, Romney seems pretty tame. Well, at least he did until he started blaming his loss
101 Post contains links Revelation : Wow, I actually agree with Newt Gingrich on a few things: Gingrich on Romney’s ‘gifts’ comments: ‘It’s nuts’ Seems Newt ain't buying the "
102 seb146 : He probaly was scouting for 2016. Don't get me wrong: his hypocracy on social values will hurt him again, but he will get even farther. Possibly even
103 Pu : In fairness, the Republican argument that helping the rich helps everyone DOES resonate with quite a few people, absurdly (to me) very often hourly-w
104 Ken777 : And a better turn out on the other side could have EASILY doubled that ~3%. Why? And to whom? Romney was simply about making the top 1% of the top 1%
105 Revelation : Indeed, so I still wonder if there's any way for him to ditch his past? He never did seem to do anything to address it. Is it then the best political
106 Pu : The fiscally conservative message has widespread appeal. To everyone. By this I mean that a balanced budget is ideal, less borrowing is better and a
107 D L X : The first problem is that the Republican version of that message comes with nasty side effects: - creationism - transvaginal sonograms - prayer at ev
108 DeltaMD90 : It would also helped if the Republican Party's track record was all about this. Not only did social issues get in their way, but the hypocrisy of wan
109 BMI727 : That's not preference, that's necessity. You'd have to levy something like a 75% tax on all of the wealth controlled by the top 1% to close the defic
110 Revelation : Right, until you try to identify exactly what to cut. I'm having a hard time naming one at the national level who was, both in word and in deed. The
111 rightrudder : What's next? The revaluation of the immigrant viewpoint and communicating compassion. I can arguably say that the election was tipped by the Latino /
112 Ken777 : Spending cuts? Starting with Defense? After two 10+ year wars I think we can make come cuts. But, of course, we are going to need to increase VA spen
113 Post contains images StarAC17 : Own it, admit he made mistakes and that he is sorry for them (even if he isn't). People will give second chances to people all the time, I really wis
114 BMI727 : How much will it really have to increase, when you consider the number of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam veterans that will be dying off? Nor am I. I'm jus
115 StarAC17 : I agree with that 100% but the problem I see with the US defense department is that they are still building things to fight a war like they would hav
116 BMI727 : The thing is that we will need that type of force too. Not as large and some overseas bases can be closed, but there does need to be a conventional f
117 Revelation : Indeed, that's a well known debating technique: introduce something no one intends to do, then show how it can't be done. The logical fallacy raises
118 Ken777 : The problem with Vets from the Bush/Cheney Wars is that they were deployed on a rotation that was far too short when it came to tame back home to reb
119 seb146 : They are starting to get that skin color does not matter. Even if those words come out wrong. Bobby Jindal sounding like a liberal and Ann Coulter ad
120 BMI727 : There is no way that we could get from now to the time of a viable unmanned fighter without something in the middle. I think the next generation will
121 DeltaMD90 : I think the F-22 AND the F-35 are a little much. Haven't dealt with the F-35 myself, but I know it's riddled with problems, and I heard from multiple
122 Post contains links tugger : And here is one of the big problems with the current GOP: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...nswer-about-creationism/?hpt=hp_t2 There are two thin
123 BMI727 : It doesn't suck. It was a plane where the idea came from politicians and bureaucrats who decided that they could build a plane to do everything and b
124 DeltaMD90 : It has run into a ton of problems. The Navy's is behind schedule (some big problem with the arresting cables I think.) The Marines version I think is
125 BMI727 : It has, but I think most of it lies with what the JSF set out to be and do. Looking at what's happened, there really isn't much I could point to and
126 DeltaMD90 : I think the idea was novel but the different branches have such different demands it seemed kinda silly mushing it all together. I mean you have dema
127 D L X : Do you have some numbers to back that up? That was not true during the Clinton years.
128 DocLightning : Certainly, but also the LGBT vote. In fact, the number of LGBT Americans who voted for Mr. Obama is larger than the overall margin by which Mr. Obama
129 Post contains links BMI727 : Not that novel considering it was tried in the 1960s with the F-111. The F-35 has already done better than that. I'd count that as a mistake. If thou
130 DeltaMD90 : That's really sick, actually. I'm sorry you think like that
131 Pu : The Republicans (and the Right worldwide) are always more ideological... while the Democrats (and Left worldwide) are always more pragmatic. In many
132 StarAC17 : That's is what many economists are saying, there is no point in reigning in this deficit in the short term if it means another recession. This is why
133 DocLightning : No it does not. I did not say that one day all the wells will run dry. What I said is that we are going to run out and that we need to prepare for th
134 DeltaMD90 : Lolol It's kinda funny, this would set us up to be strong economically and really improve our national security, something you'd think the Republican
135 DocLightning : You'd think. Until you realize that American oil executives and companies spend a lot of time and money courting GOP politicians. Who do you think is
136 seb146 : But, there are two problems: 1. The price of oil is set by a group of individuals in New York City. 2. Even if the United States pumped all of it's o
137 DeltaMD90 : These are separate issues (and I'd argue that #2 creates jobs and gets money flowing, even if a lot of oil does go out) but still, being careful of e
138 tugger : To be honest, to me neither of those are very large problems. I'll have to dig around for it but I remember reading that energy and its related cost
139 Ken777 : Start with remembering that health care costs are increasing faster than non-medical inflation. That puts the costs of taking care of a young vet is
140 ATCtower : Bear in mind with my replies, I am not a democrat or a republican. Romney may be 'tame' by political commercial views, his core values are at the hear
141 DocLightning : Actually, not true. It's actually somewhat difficult to kill yourself unless you do a gun to the side/front of your head. A lot of suicide attempts g
142 BMI727 : Not really. And you have to understand that even "true" altruism is self-serving. Giving yourself up in some way to perpetuate a group to which you b
143 DeltaMD90 : I agree that politicians should not be trusted in regards to climate change... that's why we should listen to the climatologists. They're all saying
144 StarAC17 : Not entirely, speculation accounts for a lot of the day to day changes in the price but the overall trend in that it is going to go up in price becau
145 Post contains images Revelation : Sure, upgraded F15/F16/F18 would be just fine, except that LM wouldn't be making as much money as they do on F22/F35. Rubio needs to read up on carbo
146 seb146 : Well, yes. But... The right keeps saying that if we can pump our own oil, everything will be fine. But, it won't. The oil is being pumped by private,
147 Post contains links and images Revelation : Lose an election, pump your own gas: Mitt pumps his own gas: how 47% of him!
148 seb146 : I saw this headline somewhere and thought: And the story here is.....? So a guy pumed his gas one time. So what? I am more concerned that members of
149 StarAC17 : I hope they ignore because they make the same case for taxes and jobs. The real reason that a company will hire anyone is because they will profit fr
150 flipdewaf : Imageine the outcry if he had some 47%er doing it for him. I found romney to be a fair and reasonable bloke, I didn't agree with his politics but I c
151 Dreadnought : I dunno. I had something of a 'project' in my family prior to the election to do what I could to persuade our more liberal members to ‘see the ligh
152 D L X : You think that Democrats heightened the reproductive rights issue? You're blaming the wrong people. Todd Akin (legitimate rape) Richard Mourdock (God
153 seb146 : He usually did. Until Sheldon Adelson cut off his funding. Let's not forget, too, that Romney had an elevator for his cars, and hadn't held a job in
154 Ken777 : Yes, simply because of the financial contributions that would be shaping any shift to a Fair Tax to the desires of those wealthy enough to have lobby
155 Revelation : I doubt there'd be an outcry for that. I think people would expect him to have someone driving him and the wife around in one of "Ann's Cadillacs" an
156 Post contains links Dreadnought : I know you probably hate her guts, but Anne Coulter wrote something very good about that subject: http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2012/11/0
157 seb146 : One last thing: The 47% includes seniors and enlisted soldiers. Like the ones fighting for our freedom in Afghanistan and Iraq.
158 BMI727 : ...so your problem is not that FairTax is unfair, just that you think that they'll hack it up? And what makes you think the wealthy will let their ta
159 Post contains images Dreadnought : Now just stop right there. Nobody should be hating a talking head, or a politician. There are many people that I think are stupid, and I have no use
160 BMI727 : ...but brown skinned Muslims are fair game, right? No, Anne Coulter is a useless person who does more harm than good to the Republicans. There are fe
161 Ken777 : Ann is working hard to take the focus away from the position of a lot or Republicans - namely the health of the mother. There are those who believe i
162 BMI727 : ...at which point the wealthy use their clout to get new tax cuts. Too bad liberals aren't as interested in bringing back the Clinton economy as they
163 Mir : Except that having the nation's budget in order means you're more likely to have a job in the future. Whereas if we spend more now so that you can ha
164 BMI727 : A job doing what? If the spending gets cut, the only way to bring it back is bring back the budget problems. And any job is going to be hampered by t
165 seb146 : But, the right wing makes it harder and harder to get out of the bottom. They just assume everyone has money. We don't because we work to pay for thi
166 Post contains links Dreadnought : Have I ever said I hated them. I don't. It sounds like you have some hate issues yourself thought. Projecting your own intensities and emotions on th
167 Mir : Anything. Likely something you'd want to do. Not so. The current spending levels would be fine if the economy were strong. Cut the spending, get the
168 BMI727 : How specifically? How does a billionaire making more money stop you from saving for retirement? How does anyone else's gain hurt you, especially to t
169 Mir : Says the person who wants government spending to be kept steady in order to have a job, and also says: -Mir
170 Dreadnought : Keep missing the point. I just looked at the latest budget numbers. We are spending 2.34 trillion dollars this year on welfare and assistance program
171 Post contains images Ken777 : Look around. Their loopholes are far more important to them than the tax rate. Next in line will be capital gains taxes. Going over the cliff will pu
172 BMI727 : If somebody's going to have to "take one for the team" I don't want it to be me. I recall quite a few new millionaires being minted in the 2004-2008
173 seb146 : Closing good paying jobs that include benefits and replacing them with either no jobs at all or low-wage jobs with no benefits. Those people who had
174 BMI727 : They don't work for you, and they don't work for the government. They are under no obligation to provide X jobs at Y dollars per year salary. Providi
175 Dreadnought : Ah, a fan of the Zero-Sum Principle - a cornerstone of progressive economics. Collectively, all losses and gains sum to zero. Your loss is our gain,
176 Post contains images flipdewaf : huh? What about those are too dumb to even get a minimum wage job? Yes there are jobs that require certain training and skills (like engineering and
177 seb146 : This is what I am talking about: The same people who love greed and profit so much are the same people who kick out the workers and then blame the wo
178 BMI727 : I'm not. Learn to compete or you won't be part of the market. I like being the smartest guy in the room, but not enough to go work at a crappy job wi
179 Pu : True enough, but the alternative on the other end of the spectrum, (which you implicitly embrace) is attractive to a lot of people (especially in the
180 Mir : Giving up a bit now for more down the road is hardly taking one for the team. -Mir
181 BMI727 : That's where it all started to fall apart. The part of the "American Dream" that included working hard faded out and it became something we were all
182 Dreadnought : You omit the little detail that in order to "kick out the workers", they had to hire them in the first place. You seem to forget that part. When was
183 seb146 : And, again, I have no problem with profits. But, when profits and excess of a few are so outrageous that the rest of us trying to get by are being to
184 BMI727 : ...as long as you get your cut, despite having done nothing to earn it. Nope. There are others who will work just as hard and demand less. That's why
185 Post contains links Pu : The basic data are twofold: 1. For around 30 years there has been in the US a polarisation of the labour market, which is to say that previous to thi
186 Dreadnought : I appreciate your doing some research on this. I read through the articles, and one glaring thing struck me. You say that something around 40 years a
187 Pu : All these things have a role in explaining how America came to this point. Isn't free trade a Republican ideological pillar, btw? I bet if you promis
188 Dreadnought : The first Progressive president was a Republican (Roosevelt), and other GOP presidents have been progressive as well, such as Nixon, GWB, Hoover, McC
189 DeltaMD90 : I have a hard time swallowing your logic. I can totally see passing laws to make it easier for the lower incomes to have a shot at the American Dream
190 seb146 : The poor are not owed anything. Except those who had their savings taken away, their health care taken away and their job taken away. No, I am not sa
191 Post contains images Dreadnought : Then why do you keep voting for people who promise handouts and suppress opportunity? Oh God...
192 BMI727 : Exactly. They were not entitled to any of those things. You should save your money and nobody is under any obligation to create a certain number of j
193 seb146 : Massive tax breaks? How are those being paid for? Answer: blame the guy in the White House. In other words: that will be balaced on the backs of the
194 Dreadnought : Everyone repeat: "Not taxing someone is not the same as spending" Repeat a million times or until it sinks in. Then why don't you fight, argue and pr
195 Mir : Doesn't have to be, but in practice it can be. Tax cuts still have to be paid for. And it is entirely possible to have one sector of the population s
196 Dreadnought : No. They. Don't. Government simply needs to limit it's expenditure to roughly what it receives. If it chooses to tax less, that is a revenue reductio
197 Post contains images Pu : According to those ultra-left-wing pinkos at The Heritage Foundation, the data does not reflect your contention. ...actually by 2012 spending as a %
198 Post contains links Dreadnought : Why do you use 2nd hand data when official data is available? http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals Don't trust the numbers after 2012 - b
199 Post contains links and images Pu : They are the same figures for past data; what the Heritage Foundation is calling the 2012 budget is that which begins in 2012, the White House is cal
200 seb146 : Another thing I think the right should give up is the idea of public schools being endoctrination centers. Some of us can not afford elite private sch
201 BMI727 : Not being given something that isn't really yours to start with is not the same as having something taken from you. Way off the mark. The hallmark of
202 Revelation : Right, but this spirit is almost exactly contrary to the US Constitution. You're saying we're all in this for ourselves, the Constitution is more abo
203 Ken777 : What needs to sink in is the reduction of spending in Defense to match reductions in taxes. Without the two Bush/Cheney Wars we might not be facing t
204 Dreadnought : My own calculations. I've been known as a spreadsheet guru for the past 25 years or so, so I take raw data where I can find it, and change assumption
205 Post contains links Dreadnought : You are forgetting that the Constitution also dictated subsidiarity, in the form of Federalism. The smallest societal group must handle problems if a
206 BMI727 : The Constitution is the framework for government, which is a mechanism set up specifically because we cannot accomplish everything for ourselves or v
207 seb146 : Touche. The narrative from the right is public schools need to be de-funded and closed because they are indoctrinating children. The right wants to g
208 Revelation : Fortunately there are plenty of abandoned islands available, so you have the perfect opportunity to be in it all by yourself. Till you do that, you c
209 Ken777 : The challenge is that inflation will erode the value of those funds. Looking at medical costs alone you face a situation where you either move to uni
210 seb146 : Expanding westward fell to government. It wasn't only private enterprise that expanded westward. Private railroads helped. With incentives from the g
211 BMI727 : I want quality public education too, but with one caveat: you have to use it. You want to have a successful career, you go to school. Don't show up l
212 mt99 : I tend to agree with you, but i heard from a teacher this weekend about some of the kids she teaches in high school end up not showing up to school,
213 Dreadnought : Uh, I did that when I was in high school, working at the grocery store. It never caused me to miss school. Excuses excuses...
214 mt99 : Thats because your perfect man. You are Superman. PS. I dont believe you. Can you prove it?
215 Post contains images Revelation : Silly me, working at the local soup kitchen when I should have been out committing capitalism...
216 Dreadnought : You mean you want me to show you time cards from Jumbo Food Mart from the early 80s? LOL Don't believe me if you like, I don't care. And I don't thin
217 mt99 : Yes. Don't forget your grades from school too. His time cards and his grades please... Excuses, excuses... We ask us to believe your stories, yet you
218 seb146 : BMI, you have been very respectful and insightful in your posts. While I don't agree with your opinions, I appreciate your tone. I am quoting you, but
219 BMI727 : That's where personal responsibility has to come in. The parents have to put their foot down and tell their kids to get to school and do their work s
220 DeltaMD90 : I actually really agree with this. The "I'm lazy, give me handouts" stereotype is out there and very much exists (and always will exist) but I believ
221 Darksnowynight : And this is what the right, libertarians, and any of the other crank parties don't seem to understand. This "welfare queen" as mainstream recipient o
222 DeltaMD90 : ??? You just contradicted yourself. And I HAVE been there (that line of thinking) and no, I wasn't trying to fool myself or fool anyone, and I wasn't
223 Ken777 : Look around at today's education programs. Kids who want to become teachers face a mountain of debt from over priced universities, and end up with a
224 Pu : One of the main ways people allign themselves with the political Right is by believing 1. they (or their parents) are successful, and, therefore 2. s
225 Darksnowynight : I doubt that. Read the post, slower, and in it's entirety. The thread asks what's next for the GOP. By this point in it, we have a series of posts th
226 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Well I apologize if I misunderstood you. I was saying that I've been in the line of thinking you mentioned and that I did "really believe" it (read S
227 BMI727 : The government implements programs so we all have to pay for it. They make it everybody's problem. It wouldn't be good for them. But for everyone els
228 Ken777 : As we move away from the election i go more & more to the belief that neither the GOP nor the Tea Party will change much. Most important: there w
229 BMI727 : I don't know, but it's too many. The point is that there are a ton of people screaming for more government benefits and social programs. They complai
230 DeltaMD90 : IDK, I've seen quite a few Republicans voice that they want to compromise. You know and I know that prior to Nov 6th, that would basically be politic
231 seb146 : There are those in private school who do not take advantage of the education system either. Just like there are those in the public education system
232 BMI727 : Same issue. I don't really care where you go to school. If you don't do what you're supposed to do then don't complain when you're stuck as unskilled
233 seb146 : There are plenty. Problem is: those skilled workers have to work at Wal-Mart and collect food stamps because companies are not hiring in areas like c
234 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, BMI727 did graduate from college and is having a tough time getting a job IIRC. Then again, you do live at home still, correct? Not tryin
235 flipdewaf : Take note BMI, hat might be why you don't have a job yet. Bloody hell! That's a great idea, if you force someone to pay a percentage of their earning
236 Ken777 : Just like there are a lot of people at the top of the wealth scale that are quietly lobbying for even more benefits than they already enjoy. And the
237 Dreadnought : Fair enough. Maybe not a requirement - but how about making your potential revenue coming from Social Security being related to how much money you pu
238 BMI727 : Americans won't do that. If two car dealers are selling the same car but one is $1,000 and the other is $10,000, the decision is really easy. But if
239 Ken777 : Or you could call it Social Security. So maybe we need to look at the costs going into US jobs. Start with employer nanny care. That is a huge cost t
240 Post contains images Dreadnought : I know it's one of your favorite subjects, but healthcare is a small part of the cost differential. the main one is the actual salary level. Surely y
241 Darksnowynight : It really doesn't matter if they win or not in '16. Even losing, they can always blame that "damned librul media" again. What will really set them on
242 BMI727 : That would be a considerable change to Social Security, since that would be a real savings and investment scheme, which Social Security is not. With
243 DeltaMD90 : Haven't there been enough posters, some of them with interviewer experience, that consistently tell you that just having a job shows that you actuall
244 Darksnowynight : Doesn't matter. There are people out there who won't work hard for any amount of money. A good deal of them tend to have degrees. We do pay more than
245 Pu : Are you quoting straight from the Republican Party Plan for Privatising Social Security (West Virginia Edition) ? What do you think happens when some
246 BMI727 : If we're talking about making fries, the truth is that I don't care. If the employer doesn't care enough about the job to pay more than minimum wage,
247 Pu : The certainty of being young with textbook knowledge! "Real Investments" require a constant injection of new investment to "remain viable" (produce r
248 DeltaMD90 : Not talking about that. Talking about employment gaps and how those don't look very good. Back on topic, are there enough Republicans on board with s
249 Post contains links Dreadnought : Except the Social Security Trust fund puts its money pretty much in one place only - government T-Bills and government bonds. Basically they are usin
250 Pu : You are only slightly less superficial than the youngster convinced the exact dollars invested at 25 come back to you at 65! ....where does the money
251 BMI727 : Not from the same entity making the initial investment. Yes, they require someone else with capital to come along later and be willing to pay more fo
252 Post contains links Dreadnought : Most of it goes to pay for government employees and buildings. And T-bills will only pay you maybe 0.5% annual return on average. Here is the result
253 Pu : Are you quite effing out of your mind? The MAIN reason, for instance, stocks go up, when they do go up, is because the same exact ~100 million US hou
254 BMI727 : Social Security does not put an asset in the middle. Workers' money goes in and goes right back out to their grandparents. They get paid back by thei
255 Dreadnought : You would not be a member of the Flat Earth Society, would you? Give it up.
256 Pu : (If we're still talking on the same page) my understanding is that ALL the proceeds from all US govt borrowing go into the same gigantic pile as reve
257 Pu : You are to your credit a reliable source for the level of economic "understanding" and regurgitation found in a 1955 economics textbook when America
258 Pu : Yes it does: the asset is the promise of the US government to pay you later... "Investing" in bonds is nothing more than investing in the promise of
259 BMI727 : If you're going to go that route, there's another problem: I can get that myself. Probably even right from this computer. So, why should the governme
260 Pu : Sure, you could get the same promise yourself, from precisely the same investment banks (and their related entities mutual funds, the bond market, et
261 BMI727 : I'm not talking about other investment vehicles, just government bond issues. You can send Social Security money via FICA where the government uses i
262 seb146 : Nope. They will keep re-drawing lines and keeing it Reublican forever and ever. I am going to school. I wanted to study either surveying or architect
263 Ken777 : As that nanny care cost explodes it does become a factor in the hourly costs of labor. There is no way that health care costs can be controlled when
264 BMI727 : Separate out the insurance and death parts of it and fund that via taxes. Then deep six the trust fund. Nobody should do that. Government bonds shoul
265 Ken777 : Doen't really work that way - disability benefits are based on your contributions. When you get your SS Statement each year you'll see where you are
266 flipdewaf : Why? What makes Americans different from anyother people? What makes you think you deserve anything for free? Get off your arse and show the initiati
267 Darksnowynight : I don't know about that. No doubt they'll try it for sure; I hardly think they're above gerrymandering & all. But if you look at how TX voted thi
268 BMI727 : The standard of living and costs here are both higher than in China or any number of other places. It just doesn't seem to be the smartest thing to p
269 seb146 : I just heard the only "liberal" talk radio station in PDX is now sports. Yet, having all those "conservative" talk stations to the one "liberal" stat
270 Dreadnought : Conservatives listen to talk radio, Liberals listen to Lady Gaga - that's all it means.
271 Post contains images helvknight : Not really. It just means that liberals don't live in a bubble.
272 casinterest : I think conservatives only listen to get an idea of where to buy gol, viagra, and security systems. Their isn't really a lot of substance or depth in
273 Pu : I more or less agree! A few years ago we flew to Atlanta and then drove on to Tampa. The liberal Lady Gaga listeners in Atlanta (and their radio stat
274 DeltaMD90 : I know it is a comic, but I think this is kind of what happened (in a much more mild sense.) Most of my conservative friends tell me the same talking
275 seb146 : Yes, some liberals only wanted to read the polls that said Obama had a huge lead. But, *most* liberal national talk radio kept saying "national polls
276 flipdewaf : Not saying you should spend more money, you have already bought your cow now you need to do some graft. Tell me BMI, why should one hire you over som
277 BMI727 : Rush is against everyone who isn't white or male. Probably other things too. At least on women he practices what he preaches, having helped out four
278 DeltaMD90 : Need to diversify my friend. I was in the boat just a short while ago thinking grades were everything... they really aren't. Sports, extra curricular
279 BMI727 : I did do other things in college. As far as managing workloads go, I think I've done more than "the fries are done and the urinal needs to be cleaned
280 Darksnowynight : Great. If you add that to having a job, your application may very well land you an interview. No job worth having ever even asked about mine. I think
281 DeltaMD90 : I really don't know what to tell you. Many people on here, with way more experience than me and you combined times 20, are saying the same thing. You
282 BMI727 : Could he have set the bar a little bit lower? Nobody really cares as long as it's good enough? Why would I ever want to work for someone who's just l
283 DeltaMD90 : Ok, fine, ignore everyone on this board, do it your way (which is obviously not working,) and prove us wrong. I hope in the meantime your parents don
284 BMI727 : The "fast track" is subjective. All I can really do is make sure I'm on the fastest track, which doesn't seem to include McDonalds. I'd be more than
285 DeltaMD90 : You're asking for a job that's above you, obviously, or else you would have been hired. NO. No it does not. You and thousands get 4 year degrees in a
286 BMI727 : All I really want now is a job that isn't below me. Doing that for my own reasons is kinda sleazy even by my standards. It's impressive enough for pl
287 DeltaMD90 : I think your expectations may be a bit too high Nothing wrong with that, people benefit from your charity even if you're doing it for yourself. Hopef
288 cws818 : Apparently you have not been particularly convincing with that argument. Exactly! Or at least volunteer at some organization whose program interests
289 BMI727 : Quite simply a job that I'd consider good now I probably wouldn't consider good in a couple of years. So if I waste, or at least spend, time being a
290 cws818 : You don't have a job now! You don't have a job now! You are, by choice, off of the grid.
291 cws818 : You are spending time unemployed, by choice. Thus, you are paying the price for causing your own problem.
292 BMI727 : That doesn't change my analysis. There's no point working so I can have the job I want now in two years. In two years I should have the job I want in
293 cws818 : Perhaps it should. Yes there is. If you work now, you will have a better chance of obtaining the job you want in two years. And every little girl sho
294 seb146 : The problem with the new economy is: every job is "below" those looking for work. There is no perfect job out there anymore. I have a degree already
295 BMI727 : ...maybe in four years, or six. It's just a way to not lose ground, it isn't catching up. I have no problem starting at the bottom of the ladder and
296 cws818 : I was not being sarcastic! You are obviously an intelligent fellow - you write well, eloquently, and in organized and persuasive fashion. That counts
297 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Well I give up. I wish you luck. No need repeating everything I said. Hopefully you'll either consider what everyone has been saying or get lucky and
298 BMI727 : The problem is that it often becomes a commitment. I've been cautioned against bouncing around too much, although I'd be perfectly happy to do that i
299 flipdewaf : You should stop sitting on the platform for this fastrack waiting for ever faster trains to be built, the slower trains will start pulling into the d
300 DarkSnowyNight : It will eventually be your only track if you keep that up. If by everyone, you mean people who've already paid their dues and have been working a whi
301 seb146 : Look outside your own community as well. You may hate the idea of working 300 miles from where you now live, but that may be what you have to do. It'
302 BMI727 : True, but getting on a slow one now will never allow me to catch up. Well, now being behind the curve I'll have to find some way of getting ahead. No
303 seb146 : Some low wage temp work leads to permanent work. When I get out of school, I am going to register with every temp agency around here because I know i
304 BMI727 : ...it can, but I could handle being underpaid as a temp but I wouldn't deal with being underpaid as a permanent employee. Unless it comes with a sign
305 Ken777 : Quite often employers are impressed by more than grades. Start with the Engineering Profs that are taken out to lunch by recruiters to get some backg
306 BMI727 : I've never heard of that happening. I'm not saying it doesn't happen some places, but the old boys network is not the way it used to. If it did I'd b
307 Ken777 : Are you kidding? A company recruiting from a University year after year and the recruiters are not talking to the Profs? That would not be a bright r
308 BMI727 : I'm not saying it isn't a good idea. Heck if they were doing that I'd probably be better off for it, but all the keyword searches and applicant track
309 seb146 : Welcome to United States of America, 2012!
310 casinterest : Wow , just wow!!!!!!!!!! I tip my hat Seb. The Irony here is thick.
311 BMI727 : How so? I'm willing to work as hard as anyone at a job that helps me get somewhere worth going. But, unless there are other redeeming qualities, I'll
312 casinterest : Yet you are exploiting your parent's generosity while awaiting the worthwhile opportunity ?
313 BMI727 : Sure, but if they begin to feel differently the equation changes. Being unskilled labor sucks in pretty much any society, but rather than propose a s
314 seb146 : ummmm.... not really gonna happen. You sound like my brother who expects to start at the top. I have a degree in broadcasting, but I can't really do
315 BMI727 : I never said I expected to start at the top. I have no problem starting at the bottom of my field, but I have a big problem not being on a decent pat
316 Post contains images DarkSnowyNight : Don't make that assumption. Not only does my company not operate that way, but many others as well. In 2007, I was offered a pretty decent position a
317 flipdewaf : You don't have a field, you have some years of school. yes, much better to be an educated know it all who is too clever to work. Why do you think you
318 seb146 : So, raising the top tax rate to the Clinton era rates is the death knell for the country? We have had rich for decades in this country. All the way b
319 BMI727 : I am. So much that I know that a menial "better than nothing" job wouldn't do much to make me feel better, and quite possibly worse. I've used a lot
320 mt99 : What do you do for health insurance?
321 BMI727 : Oddly enough, Obamacare actually helps in that respect. Since I doubt I'm competing for any jobs that may not exist due to potentially increasing cos
322 mt99 : hmm,, interesting..[Edited 2012-12-04 09:51:51]
323 Post contains images Ken777 : You sound like a Democrat complaining that the minimum wage is way too low, exploiting the worker. And lowering them in the Bush/Cheney Years resulte
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