Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19700 posts, RR: 56 Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 613 times:
Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter): There was no choice for this lady to do what she wanted/needed to do with her body, her freedom was taken away by others.
Her life as well. Absolutely sickening.
How this can happen in the civilized world is beyond me. Even if you're anti-abortion, even if the case of rape, you'd have to allow for exceptions to be made when the life of the mother is at (as it was here).
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
I don't understand how people can just say things like that and why we don't realize that sometimes, you're either going to have one dead from an abortion or two dead from a lack of.
francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 614 times:
I would have thought that a civilized country, despite its religious driven laws, would still allow provisions in said laws to cater for cases such as this one.
Whether the husband's opinion that she died because of her pregnancy and that an abortion would have killed her is still to be proven, but this story really has a medieval whiff to it...
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1277 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 614 times:
The only halfway logical reason for letting that mother die is that humans should not interfere with their fate.
Accident victims should be left how you found them. Victims of crime should not call the police. It is fate. If you have appendicitis, we'll make an exception.
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3120 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
I would have thought that a civilized country, despite its religious driven laws, would still allow provisions in said laws to cater for cases such as this one.
On paper, there is, supported by a court case, but it lacks specifics. Abortion is illegal unless it is necessary for the life of the mother, so it would appear to be acceptable only in life-or-death situations, but it isn't clearly explained.
To answer a quote from the BBC report, they're not Catholics, they're barbarians. I can't say I know much about Ireland's legal system, but I hope it is similar enough to the UK's for someone to launch a private prosecution for willful murder against the hospital and its staff.
StarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3211 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting flipdewaf (Thread starter): Seems very sad thet in these modern times people and societies can still be so backward.
Religion almost always is.
When something is structured on not being able to question the teachings of a book (the bible) or a imperfect person things like this happen. To move forward we have to question the status quo which religion at the least frowns upon.
Had this happened at a regular hospital no issue would have occurred.
Agreed! This hospital should be shut down completely. They dropped the ball here. The woman's ER doctor and the administrators of that hospital should be thrown in prison for manslaughter, not once but twice!
"This is a Catholic Country", my ass. It makes no difference, Catholic or not. All humans operate & function the same way. Religion should not trump health care. Health care always comes first, religion last.
Good god!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5297 posts, RR: 47 Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Abortion is the topic I reconsider the most, wishing I could change the way I feel. Never seem to, but I at least have some compromises in mind. I don't base my decisions regarding others based off religion... that being said, my views on abortion are considered "extreme..."
HOWEVER, when it comes to life or death of the mother, I am all for abortion (using a humane way to put the baby down.) In my mind, both are lives, so either way a death is going to result... I leave that up to the parents. Also, the mother may need to help take care of existing children, so if I were in that case, I'd choose the abortion over the mother dying
thomil13FRA From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7): Agreed! This hospital should be shut down completely.
Erm, University Hospital Galway, where the whole thing took place, is a vital part of the healthcare system in that part of Ireland. Shutting it down would do more harm than good.
The whole thing is still utterly horrible. The public reaction seems pretty strong here, at least from my limited perspective here in Cork. There was a Vigil held in front of the Opera house, right across the river from my apartment, and apparently there have been protests in Dublin as well, at least according to state broadcaster RTE
Apparently, there will be an official government investigation, but I wouldn't really put my money on that. Health Minister James Reilly seems to be in over his head in his job.
Note: For those out there wondering why I am commenting on an Irish issue while flying a German flag on my profile, I moved to Ireland in August to start my new job, and changing the flag is currently at the very bottom of my priority list.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 9): Erm, University Hospital Galway, where the whole thing took place, is a vital part of the healthcare system in that part of Ireland. Shutting it down would do more harm than good.
Ok then, how about this: Get rid of the doctors and the administrators involved and throw them in prison at the same time change hospital policy on this issue. This is something that could have been prevented and a life saved. But instead, two lives were lost which is unacceptable.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19700 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8): HOWEVER, when it comes to life or death of the mother, I am all for abortion (using a humane way to put the baby down.) In my mind, both are lives, so either way a death is going to result... I leave that up to the parents. Also, the mother may need to help take care of existing children, so if I were in that case, I'd choose the abortion over the mother dying
Now define "coming to the life or death of the mother", legally. This woman clearly died because of complications related to her (failed) pregnancy. Were those complications foreseen at the time the doctors refused to do the abortion? And if not, wouldn't that just mean that the state was putting the life of the mother at risk by refusing her the ability to act on what she felt was going on with her body?
It can get very tricky when you try to legislate medical conditions.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10): Get rid of the doctors and the administrators involved and throw them in prison
Throw people in prison for following the law? It's the law that needs correcting, not the individuals.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 11): Throw people in prison for following the law?
Is it law? (Can some confirm that this is, in fact, law?) They said was that it was a "Catholic Country", but that does not mean it is "law".
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19700 posts, RR: 56 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 616 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12): They said was that it was a "Catholic Country", but that does not mean it is "law".
Irish law does not allow abortion except in cases where the life of the mother is in danger (and as I pointed out in my previous post, that definition is not so easily arrived at).
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
thomil13FRA From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 616 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 11): Throw people in prison for following the law? It's the law that needs correcting, not the individuals.
That's the problem, there IS no law. There was a Supreme Court ruling in 1992 stating that women had a right to an abortion if there was a real and substantial threat to her life. However, the Irish government, according to the information that I could find, never acted on the supreme court ruling. Legislation regarding the regulation of abortion was never passed.
Quote:
An amendment to Ireland's constitution in 1983 states that the embryo, even at the point of conception, is an Irish citizen enjoying the full rights of every man, woman and child living in the republic.
So there is an abortion ban in Ireland because it would be considered murder, at any stage of the pregnancy, or this is at least how I understand it.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 616 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 13): Irish law does not allow abortion except in cases where the life of the mother is in danger
Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 14): That's the problem, there IS no law. There was a Supreme Court ruling in 1992 stating that women had a right to an abortion if there was a real and substantial threat to her life.
Quoting lewis (Reply 15): So there is an abortion ban in Ireland because it would be considered murder, at any stage of the pregnancy, or this is at least how I understand it.
Ok, I'm confused here. Is there a law or not?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
thomil13FRA From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 15): So there is an abortion ban in Ireland because it would be considered murder, at any stage of the pregnancy, or this is at least how I understand it.
If you were to take the 1983 amendment on its own, you would be right. However, the supreme court ruling from 1992, referred to in Irish media as the X Case, established that women had a right to abortion if there was a substantial risk to her life.
So, we basically have a Constitutional Amendment, and a Supreme Court ruling that is entirely contradictory. The only thing that could clear up that mess would be precise legislation, but that hasn't happened yet.
An amendment to Ireland's constitution in 1983 states that the embryo, even at the point of conception, is an Irish citizen enjoying the full rights of every man, woman and child living in the republic.
And there are people within the USA that want this same language in our own laws?
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
An amendment to Ireland's constitution in 1983 states that the embryo, even at the point of conception, is an Irish citizen enjoying the full rights of every man, woman and child living in the republic.
So there is an abortion ban in Ireland because it would be considered murder, at any stage of the pregnancy, or this is at least how I understand it.
Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 18): So, we basically have a Constitutional Amendment, and a Supreme Court ruling that is entirely contradictory. The only thing that could clear up that mess would be precise legislation, but that hasn't happened yet.
Wow. Sounds complicated. How would they deal with that from a legal standpoint? Would they have Certificates of Conception? Would the Date of Conception be used in their documents?
blrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 11): Now define "coming to the life or death of the mother", legally. This woman clearly died because of complications related to her (failed) pregnancy. Were those complications foreseen at the time the doctors refused to do the abortion? And if not, wouldn't that just mean that the state was putting the life of the mother at risk by refusing her the ability to act on what she felt was going on with her body?
Please see this link. Clearly, the doctors knew that the foetus was unsurvivable, but still refused to abort it. It would have probably relieved her pain at the very least. Poor woman, she died in agony due to perverted beliefs of the doctors at that hospital. I hope those doctors experience something similar closer to home, so that they can feel the pain of others!
Quote: ...
“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.
“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.
“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.
“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.
“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”
...
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 15): So there is an abortion ban in Ireland because it would be considered murder, at any stage of the pregnancy, or this is at least how I understand it.
There is a fine line between the health of the mother and the life of the mother. The doctor did not see that the life of the mother was in danger. They told her the pain would go away in a couple of hours. Also if the heart is still beating in the baby they cannot perform the abortion.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19700 posts, RR: 56 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 614 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17): Ok, I'm confused here. Is there a law or not?
My understanding is that abortion is illegal except where the life of the mother is in danger, but I could be wrong about that.
Quoting blrsea (Reply 21): Clearly, the doctors knew that the foetus was unsurvivable, but still refused to abort it.
But that's not the same as the mother's life being in danger.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 22): There is a fine line between the health of the mother and the life of the mother. The doctor did not see that the life of the mother was in danger. They told her the pain would go away in a couple of hours.
Which just goes to show how flawed an abortion ban with exceptions can be.
Here's a way to make it simpler and prevent innocent people from getting caught up in (or killed by) bureaucracy and legalese: just make abortions legal. Problem solved.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 614 times:
How sad for the family of Savita. They have been made the unfortunate victims of other people's perverted sense of priorities. To refuse an abortion that could have saved her life when the foetus was unsurvivable is the height of misogyny. To place a "moral" view higher than the life of an actual person shoes how little the person is valued. Where was the Christian charity of which we hear so much?
These cruel people will no doubt persuade themselves that they are right and the outcome is "unfortunate".
The sad irony is that just two months ago, at a symposium held in Dublin, 140 medical professionals issued a Declaration in which they stated, "As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman."
Unfortunate, indeed.
25 AirframeAS: You know what? I want DocLightning's take on this. What would he have done if he was placed in that situation??? Doc?
26 flyingturtle: Beside that we have obvious double standards, wearing helmets is not playing with fate IMHO. In the same way you can get up and leave home earlier, a
27 Pyrex: Yep. You pro-death? Seems very sad that in these modern times some people still believe the definition of progress is being able to kill babies left
28 blrsea: When the foetus was clearly unsurvivable, they could have terminated it to alleviate the suffering of the mother and probably increase her chances of
29 flipdewaf: no, pro choice. You ever eaten meat? I thought we were discussing foetuses, why are you bringing babies into this? You are stuck in the 1950's then,
30 blrsea: I seriously doubt that. I have no doubt that they will whitewash the whole issue saying that the doctors didn't think the woman's life was in danger
31 mad99: Stupid comment. Obviously the doctors thought things were under control but something terrible happened. My wife's first pregnancy involved bleeding,
32 blrsea: Exactly what did they have under control when according to them, the foetus was clearly not survivable, and the woman was in lot of pain? Control of
33 KiwiRob: Pretty sad but the also she could have gone to England, it a short flight or ferry trip the problem could have been resolved, rather like the thousan
34 blrsea: She wanted the child, but then unfortunately, she suffered a miscarraige. She was admitted to the hospital with severe back pain, when the doctor sai
35 mad99: We'll see what the report says but I'm sure the doctors would have aborted to save her life, its legal. more stupid comments.
36 braybuddy: A very sad situation indeed, and one that was bound to happen, given that successive governments in this country have failed to frame abortion legisla
37 blrsea: Typical response , resorting to name calling and trying to brush away issues when they can't be explained within the narrow religious prism. Didn't e
38 lewis: Yeah it is still a bit fuzzy, I don't get why there is no clear law on this already. By considering the fetus a citizen on conception, what happens i
39 starbuk7: So exactly where in the diagnosis did it say for certain that the fetus was causing that pain?? There seem to be some assumptions being made here. It
40 shamrock350: You're making it sound like the doctors personal beliefs got in the way of their decision, this wasn't the case or at least is very unlikely to be th
41 lewis: Then it is up to the doctors to prove that based on their medical experience they were sure that the woman's life was not threatened at any time beca
42 AirframeAS: Illegal or not. Not only one life was lost, but TWO were lost in this situation. That is not good. I bet that the doctors in Ireland is probably faci
43 Mir: What she deserves better than is to be accused of wanting to kill her baby because she doesn't like the outcome of her own decisions. -Mir
44 mad99: Not if it was done to save her life. We shall see once the inquest is over. agreed
45 AM744: I wonder that myself. I don't agree with the Irish position.
46 AirframeAS: Oh, these doctors are guilty of murder not once but possibly twice!!! They abandoned her and the Hippocratic Oath! Same here. I hope they change the
47 Quokkas: They may have abandoned her but whether they had bound themselves by any oath is open to question. The Hippocratic Oath was replaced in some places b
48 AirframeAS: The doctors clearly failed on that. They never respected anyone in this situation. How is a dead foetus in a mothers womb classified as "unique human
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