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Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?  
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3807 posts, RR: 51
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

I know things have been going up and down for years, but I'm seriously alarmed now. Today rockets hit Tel Aviv for the first time in ages, and it looks like Israel is preparing a massive attack or even invasion of Gaza, mobilizing thousands of troops.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Are we on the eve of the war that we hoped would never erupt, right now?

Soren


All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
320 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Well it's been nearly 4 years since the last excursion to Gaza... Lebanon in Aug 2006, Gaza in Dec 2008, Gaza in Nov 2012 now?

I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides. No excursion into neighbouring lands that end up killing a 13-year old boy and afterwards playing "nobody knows why the amount of incoming rockets went up again, oh let's kill one of their leaders - that will surely calm the situation down". Same goes for the other side too ... no "oh it's boring, let's lob a few rockets to the north and see what happens".

Take two to tango, and two to fight ^^

D.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

I don't know, Israel has been at the brink of war many times. I don't think a few rockets are gonna trigger anything drastic. Not trying to sound insensitive, but just trying to look at the huge picture.

Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
Take two to tango, and two to fight

How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!
  


User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1627 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.




Here are two articles to go along with this thread..


Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2012/11/1...lso-half-a-block-from-fajr-5-site/



Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162130#.UKWM9ofSJ2r



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7076 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

I guess an election is in the offing.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinetz757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2867 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Well both countries are filled with terrorists that hate each other so it's only bound to happen again.


LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Too right, bestwestern. The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

"Kicking off his re-election campaign, Netanyahu focused in his speech on tough measures he had taken to improve security for Israelis, such as building a fence along the border with Egypt’s Sinai, and deploying a missile shield against rockets fired from Gaza.

"Alluding to past threats to attack Iran to stop it from building a nuclear bomb, something Tehran denies, Netanyahu said Israel now had new unspecified “capabilities to act against Iran and its satellites (allied militants in Gaza and Lebanon), capabilities we didn’t have in the past”."


http://www.france24.com/en/20121016-...rity-january-likud-polls-bibi-iran

The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=292035

[Edited 2012-11-15 18:04:29]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinethediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Israelnationalnews - ah that old chestnut of rightwing zionism that even the Israeli government wont give a broadcasting licence to.

Aaron Klein - the person who wrote a book called "The Manchurian President: Barack Obama's Ties to Communists, Socialists and Other Anti-American Extremists"

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

Panem et circenses but at the expense of other human beings.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7171 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides.

This crap is getting old, and I honestly think that it's going to jeopardize many more nations than just Israel. I.e., if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues. At the same time, we cannot back out and let Hamas/Iran bomb the living crap out of innocent people. Nor can we let Israel do that.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?

No, haven't seen that, but its been reported here in OZ. that YouTube took down the video posted by the IDF, as it was flagged inappropriate by many users, and appropriately so, IMHO.

YouTube itself, said that the video breached its terms (see link) and took the video down, however, it appears that someone/body/organization, probably the IDF wanted it back up, so miraculously its back up, funny that  http://www.examiner.com/article/isra...st-banned-then-restored-by-youtube

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Israel has been at the brink of war many times.

And Israelis call Arabs warmongers...... wheres that mirror again ?

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Could you have possibly provided a more biased source  
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

Oh wait, doctored pics. Reminds me of all the BS pics, that got us all involved in Iraq, pleas, let us not go there again !

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Yeah, there's nothing like a war at election time... way to go Bibi

And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn.   

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...acks-on-israel-20121116-29fx8.html

Is it any wonder, that Israel courts over seas political leaders, with sponsored, all expenses paid trips to Israel, just to see the "otherside" of things..... yeah right, lets buy and bribe support if we cant get it the legit way. Shocking.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

I'd like to think so, but I don't have as much faith in the Israeli electorate as you may have. I think they will vote him back in, so on and on it will go unfortunately.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Nor can we let Israel do that.

Agreed, but your Government is as bad as ours when it comes to blindly supporting Israel at the expense of Palestinians, time and time again.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues.

"We are" or "you already have"

[Edited 2012-11-15 19:33:21]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

To be totally honest, Hamas doesn't scare me as much as Syria.. What happens if near the Golan Heights a battle breaks out and more stuff is shot across the DMZ.. I don't see Israel just holding back like they and Turkey so far have, and the UN can only do so much up there.. Could we see Israel invade to intervene? (I'm not saying in the whole Syrian conflict just in the area that is next to the Golan Heights)


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinepellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

I'm feeling a tad gleeful about this.

Israel needs to get it together and play nice in the sandbox. The only thing that makes them realize this is pain in the equivalency that they deal out to the Palestinians.

Just because your big, bad, and bold doesn't mean you deserve the right to live in peace.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

All the signs so far are, thediplomat, that if anything Netanyahu has profited by the attack. I think we have to face the fact that more than half of the Israeli voting public are in favour of frequent 'Gaza-bashing.'

"The cynical view that the two men's decision to suddenly escalate the warfare in Gaza is connected to their political considerations is not unwarranted. Barak especially will be eager to demonstrate to Israeli voters that they still need his steady hands on the security reins - so they had better make sure that his party, Atzmaut, crosses the electoral threshold on January 22. He made sure during their brief joint statement on television tonight to wear his combat gear, a severe black leather jacket.

"Netanyahu has less need of a warlord demonstration since he is all but ensured a third term, but unless something goes spectacularly wrong he also stands to gain. At the very least, none of his rivals will be able to attack over the next few days."


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-...-hurricane-jabari.premium-1.477891

The 'unknown factor' is that Egypt recently (by means of a popular vote) elected a prime minister with Islamist leanings. Up to now Egypt has always provided humanitarian aid and contact with the outside world to the unfortunate Gazans, but has sought also to maintain diplomatic contact with Israel. That may well change soon:-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...-11e2-a30e-5ca76eeec857_story.html

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Israel has nukes and has up to now received 100% political and military support from the USA. In those circumstances, much as I expect Iran to go on 'disapproving' of Israel's behaviour, there is no way it can even think about any direct (i.e. military) involvement over Gaza or any other part of what is left of Palestine. The 'Gaza Strip,' as it used to be called, is little more than a prison camp, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in much the same situation; and even Palestinians living in 'Israel proper' don't have anything like equal rights.

As far as I'm concerned the only solution to the problem is for Israel to end all forms of religious discrimination and work towards the federation of the whole of what we used to call 'Palestine' into a single federated state, with equal rights for all.

But I'll let everyone know if that ever looks like happening. There'll be sure signs of it. For a start, I'm sure I'll see pigs flying over Melbourne the moment Israel (and the USA) ever even LOOK like getting sensible about this bloody (I use the word advisedly) mess.......

[Edited 2012-11-15 22:28:37]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

Quoting swissy (Reply 3):
How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!

yes, but only one of the two lives in the 21st century.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.

That goes for both sides, Flanker.

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Lol- I had to chuckle. It was completely biased drivel.

Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas? As soon as I heard it on the radio I KNEW that this would incite some reaction. You can't go around assassinating members of the Palestinian government (who were elected) without upsetting what was already a very fragile peace.

I can not foresee any peace between Israel and Palestinian- certainly not in my life time, and I'm only 30.
Since the 1940s the two entities have been at war and since then, nothing has changed. Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence. This in turn creates upset, especially with the Israeli settlements mushrooming on what even Israel deemed as Palestinian land. And the Israeli's don't stop the settlements. You know, Israel is not a small country- there is room to build your camp elsewhere.
Why incite upset by illegally setting up home on someone else's land? It's like history repeating itself!



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2473 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5123 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
'Gaza-bashing.'

Seriously??!!!

Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

The amount of illegal settlements built by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of illegal settlements built by Israelis in 2012? You don't need me to quote the exact numbers or?

The amount of target killings of Israeli political figures commited by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of target killings of Palestinian political figures commited by Israelis in 2012? ....

Goes both ways. No matter how biased we all are (and we all carry some bias with us) - the picture is clear - both sides are guilty for the situation, and both sides are continuing the path towards peace (mhm) carrying giant clubs in their hands.

Read a nice article in the JPost today - 5 out of the last 7 general elections in Israel were preceded by military action (either Gaza, Syria or Lebanon).

I can not assess the truthfulness of this article: http://www.timesofisrael.com/jabari-...israeli-who-negotiated-with-hamas/ but if true it could provide some food for thought.

D.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinepellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Netanyahu has to show a big d*** in his hand to counteract the perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression than Republican hard-liners are.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

why did you just change what you originally wrote ?

That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

And now you come out with this drivel

Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

not generalizing the Palestinians, but the Hamas terrorists certainly are, like any other religion driven terrorists.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !

Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!

That is actually quite an evil thing to say. Do you mean wipe the Palestinian nation out ? Like Hiter did to the Jews in the 1940s? Or wipe out a nationally elected government which was elected in a democratic process? I think you should shed some light on that, because if you do mean wipe out a whole nation of people, you are a sick man indeed.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Again, I am really shocked at your aggression here. You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.
Why do you have so much hatred here? I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's. Just imagine is the Cubans came to your town armed with guns and forced you into Canada and said, right, we now declare this our new home. And robbed your homes and shops and made you homeless. Finally relenting, they give you a quarter of your town back to live in but then bombed your power stations and your airport and destroyed any chance of an economy. Then these Cubans decided that it wasn't enough, they actually started building their homes on your part of town until you were left with not much. And when somebody resists and tries to fight back, they bulldoze your homes, with your kids inside and your wife etc. And then fire massive missiles into your part of town. And you are stuck. No one comes to help.

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression

But why do they not care about Israeli aggression directed towards Arabs (i.e the Palestinians or the Lebanese)?



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

Technically these sorts of tit-for-tat exchanges are hard to explain or determine who started them - since in this case "who started it" depends on how far back you look. If you look a week back then it was Hamas who started it - if you look two weeks back then it was Israel who started it - so a definite answer is very hard to find.

Generally speaking this latest clash started between Nov 5th and Nov 8th. On Nov 5th a Palestinian was shot on the Palestinian side of the fence on the border of Gaza and Israel (I've heard reports labelling him having learning difficulties, but with Hamas' PR I wouldn't necessarily believe it). Also on that day an IED exploded injuring 4 Israeli soldiers. On Nov 8th IDF soldiers entered the Gaza Strip after finding several bomb near the border fence - this ultimately resulted in the death of a 13 year old (read also that he might've been 12 years old). Well from Nov 9th on Palestinians stepped up the rocket attacks (also attacking an IDF vehicle on the Israeli side and injuring 4 soldiers (1 critically IIRC)) and the rest is known. Hard to call who started it unless you specify the cutoff date for the "started it" determination.

D.


User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.

But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence and striving for an honest dialogue for peace. Which would benefit both normal Israelis and Palestinians. As it is at the moment only the hawks on both sides are benefitting.

D.


User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Didn't consider that but thinking about it, you may be right. This would have been a major issue before the US Presidentials elections.

D.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence

That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

But as the old proverb says, you cannot live in peace if your neighbour don't let you.

As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Well they've lived on it. There are deeds in Istanbul that proves some of their ownership you know. But even those deeds are invalidated by some courts in a land with a Magen Davd on it's flag. It does however stand in court that a dead person can sell his property to a group of settlers that then proceed to build on the said land.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.

PanHAM, I agree that Hamas is a negative influence on the Palestinians. I do agree with the fact that they've made, are making and will be making mistakes. But I also claim that Israel is not working towards peace (maybe to the uninformed public) but rather towards total annexation of Gaza and the West Bank. Now tell me - with that in mind, how do you suggest the Palestinians fight back to keep their land? Israeli courts do tend to be fair (with some weird decisions as stated in the first paragraph of my reply), but they take money and you need to be allowed to get into Israel (which I'm certain you're aware not all of Palestinians are) to reach said courts. And even if you are successful the IDF may declare the ground in question strategically important and you can forget it (and the settlers move in).

You need to understand these people are losing hope. And when hope is lost you do not chose your methods to fight back. I'm just reading a book about the uprising in Treblinka, and it's worth noting that the uprising happened only when all hope was lost, and when all of the Jews in Treblinka realized what their final destination is. You do fight back in what ever way possible once you lose all hope. This has been repeating itself countless times in human history.

D.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Sorry, PanHAM, that's a crazy statement. Palestine and its cities have existed for over 2,000 years.

Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

A crowd of Europeans, mostly if not all people of the Jewish faith, took most of the place over by military force in the late 1940s, driving out the traditional occupants and taking their homes and land without compensation.

In essence, the Palestinians (who took no part in WW2) were dispossessed and either killed, or mercilessly driven out of their homes and ancestral lands, because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews. And the Western Allies just 'let it happen'........

It was, and remains, a monstrous injustice.

[Edited 2012-11-16 04:03:21]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5351 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish   Which illustrates that there are people of three religions living in Israel and Palestine - 2000 years ago they were of only one faith, but then they've split apart and now they fight who owns the place ... slightly crazy.

D.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 28):
Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

What do you think Europe would be today if German "refugees" from the eastern provinces like Prussia, Silesia etc. would still live in refugee camps? Shooting missiles to Poland?

Don't you realize that these are manipulable masses in the hands of terror lords?

Israel is a fact and Palestinians have to accept that fact. They have to jump over that stick and accept reality. Would be good for them and the whole region. They could finally start participating in the wealth that is generated in Israel. No Palstinian with Israeli citizenship would trade that for Gaza or West Bank,

But as I said, the Hamas and other organisations would lose their business case and some people could not fill their private coffers anymore.

The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 30):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish

Good one, damirc.  

Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Only thing I see resolved at this stage is the claim made months ago and debunked as laughlable by many that there were missiles in Gaza capable of reaching Tel Aviv, however, that is really not important at this point in time.

The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

Its hard when religion is a significant factor in the case to use a religious phrase, but my prayers are with all concerned.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews.

And not just Germans but others in Poland, Lithuania, Croatia, etc.

After WW2 my mother worked with displaced persons, including many who were Jewish. Many could not return to where they can previously lived and could not stay where they were. The vast majority of those who wished to emigrate stated the USA as their first choice. Only a handful had any desire to go to Palestine. But by and large, even countries sympathetic to the plight of Jewish survivors imposed limits on immigration. Sure, they all had problems enough but it was the fact that they were either unable or unwilling to accept large scale Jewish migration that led many refugees to see Palestine as an option and even then the majority did not do so until after the creation of Israel.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".

So why is it that in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, that the majority of the continuing dispossession of Palestinians is taking place. Even in the Negev, where most Israelis would rather not live, the people who have lived their for centuries are being cleared out, ostensibly to provide them with better education, blah, blah. Tell a Palestinian mother who sees her house being bulldozed in front of her children that Israel is her friend when they allow thugs to trample their olive trees while the IDF looks on and will only intervene to protect the "settlers".

Even the most right wing, pro-Israel newspapers in the West have carried reports on these happenings. But at least they are very generous. They will allow for a Two State solution in which all of the West Bank goes to Israel on the grounds of needing "defensible borders" and a Palestinian State is carved out of Jordan. In other words, they are not serious about wanting any two state solution. But a One State solution in which everyone is equal would spell the end of Israel. So what remains? The Gaza Ghetto, Iron Curtains and from there?

For the record, Hamas has on a number of occasions stated that they will agree to a settlement based on the 1967 borders (with some minor land swaps) but on condition that Palestinians have the right of return (something that Jews who haven't even been to Israel have) and that East Jerusalem be the capital of a Palestinian state. Israel has rejected both conditions out of hand.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 32):
Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

I think that you will find many who would disagree with that view, including non-religious Jews. Throughout history, at least in Europe, when Jews converted to Christianity they often continued to be viewed with suspicion as they were still considered as not really being "part of us". The nazis certainly based their hatred on notions of race, describing Jews as "Nichtarier" and "Untermenschen", and not as infidels. And the whole basis of Zionism rests on the identification of Jews as being a "people" and not as followers of a particular religion.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine? Would anyone in the US honestly lift a finger for either side after our experiences in other areas in the region?

Quoting par13del (Reply 33):
The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

   There's nothing new here. Neither side wants to back down, so have at it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine?

Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care. It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants. Plus there is the whole notion that Iran wants to / will nuke the US and Israel is our #1 ally to stop them


And I want to throw something out (that I am sure will get ignored,) NO ONE is defending the Palestinians launching rockets and killing civilians. If anyone condones that, please, tell me. What many are saying is Israel is not perfect, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they have a right to defend themselves but they're going about it the wrong way, Israel should be the better person, etc. There are a plethora of reasons.

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis. Really, does that sound like the truth, or do you think there is a more sensible explanation? If you said the former, well, I've got a tin foil hat for you...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineEDKA From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn

along with many other western governments... you choose to support a terrorist group, thats your call.

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas

no i wasn't. this round was sparked by the missile fired to the army jeep which was patrolling the border and then many misiles were fired into Israel. apparently the Israeli government sent a warning to Hamas, which was ignored, then followed Djabari assassination

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence

and how much of this is Palestinians' own fault?

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.

there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's.

yes they do, but electing and supporting Hamas is not the way to go about it...






I am in the south of Israel as i type this, and i have been in and our of shelters for the last 48 hours. The sirens are constant and there are hundreds of rockets coming in the last couple of days. One exploded close enough to the building i was in for the walls to shake. There are over million people (excluding Tel Aviv area) that are in range of missile strikes... Any country would defend the lives of their citizens, and its only because of the shelters system here, there are not more civilian casualties.

right now i am struggling to find any sympathy for the Palestinians.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10630 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it. Will this go on forever and both sides will keep dragging the world into their conflict forever? After such a long time of unwise beating maybe the right idea is that the outside world turns its back finally to that local conflict if both sides are not becoming any wiser than testosterone-led adolesents.

User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

No, but there were people living there who owned the land that they lived on. They were disposessed and then displaced. History won't help any Palestinian or Israeli tonight when rockets keep on flying.

The map here: http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

D.

[Edited 2012-11-16 10:08:33]

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants.

Hard to do when any and all criticism is switfly neutralized with a "you sound like an antisemite".


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5316 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

PanHam did you ever heard or knew of nomads issuing there own currency or coins?
http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.c.../04/10/currency-of-1927-palestine/



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting na (Reply 39):
Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care.

I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

Newsflash: Missiles and Bombs still hurt and kill people. Israel and Hamas do not play nice: Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Same ol, Same ol.

What I am more concerned with is how and where the long range missiles that Hamas is using are coming from. I think Egypt and Iran are going to have some explaining to do.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5317 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.

Oh I know. I was just poking fun at the fact that if you somewhat disagree with Israel, that makes you a Nazi or something



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1196 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

Yeah yeah, I wonder if they will ever manage to make peace. Everything around there would be so much easier if Jerusalem wasn't so important to three major religions or alternatively if humans weren't so incredibly stupid.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

Didn't actually see this before - sorry, illiterate? Refugee camps - as in camps that are housing people that were made refugees on their own land. Would you call that incorrect?

D.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

It's all perfectly explainable. The American support from Israel has little to do with the Jewish vote or the disproportionately large influence of Jewish Americans on society, business, and politics. It's all the religious right. The support comes from the evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews need to be restored to the Holy Land for Jesus to return. Those are the people rooting for Israel, most Jewish people outside of the right wingers, quite a few of whom probably emigrated anyway, are much more aware of the situation than what the American media provides and do not practice unconditional support for the Israelis.

At this point, I think that the political climate is such that the Israeli government can do whatever they wish with the Palestinians, up to and including extermination, without meaningful consequences and retribution from the international community and have the American right waving pom-poms the whole way.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's all the religious right

I definitely understand that, but they just had their religious arse handed to them in this election, and it only gets worse for them from here on out. I just wonder who is really going to stick their neck out for either side this time. They've become like Lindsay Lohan--sure the first time we were all worried what happened to this cute young actress, but now we don't even flinch when she drives into a pole 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Not 'getting at you,' EDKA, but I find that statement fascinating. I see that you're relatively young, and you are staying in, or live in, Israel. If you really have been 'indoctrinated' into a belief that no place called 'Palestine' ever existed, that explains a lot. Particularly why young Jewish people (who I'm sure are normally no more bloodthirsty than the young people of other religions) often seem so ready to kill Palestinians; they apparently think of the Palestinians as 'interlopers' in a place that, in their minds, belongs to the Jews.

Trying to keep it simple - if you read up in the Old Testament about the Jews fleeing from Egypt to what is now called Israel (from childhood, I've always tended to call it the Holy Land), you'll find that one of the peoples they had to fight and largely drive out, as soon as they arrived in the area, were the 'Philistines.' If you then venture into the New Testament, you'll find that at the time of Christ's execution (in about 33AD., as far as anyone knows) the area was under Roman rule, and they called their colony 'Philistia.' Come to that, any etymologist will tell you that 'Jerusalem' is basically an Arabic word, not a Hebrew one; as, indeed, are most of the town names in what is currently 'Israel.' Moving on to modern times, 'Palestine' at the time of the First World War was a Turkish colony; and after that war, it was occupied by the British under a League of Nations mandate - and they unhesitatingly referred to it throughout that occupation as 'Palestine,' right up to their withdrawal in 1948.

As far as I can see, therefore, the whole of what is now called 'Israel,' from Biblical times right up to the present day, most definitely was, and arguably still IS, 'a country called Palestine'; and it was, and still is, being lived in by people from at least three religions - Muslim, Jewish, and Christian (put them in whatever order you like).

And my personal view is that the only thing that will sort the place out, and eventually end the conflict, will be the adoption of the system of government followed by most if not all civilised countries worldwide; freedom of religion and a secular, democratic government that ensures equal rights for all, regardless of which particular religion they happen to profess and follow.

[Edited 2012-11-16 17:59:56]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 50):
if you read up in the Old Testament about the Jews
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 32):
Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

Genesis 32:28 - Jacob (the grandson of Abraham and "father" of the Jewish nation) was renamed Israel by God (funnily enough for fighting with God.... they still havent learned!!!!)   The Jews thereafter were often known as the children of Israel through the Old Testament. They were referred to as Jews again by the New Testament.

Not that it has anything to do with 2012, but thought you would be interested in that as a history buff and explains why it is such a confused mess over there because the Jewish nation think of themselves as Gods special chosen race - based on his promise to Abraham ~4000 years ago!!!!!  



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 51):
because the Jewish nation think of themselves as Gods special chosen race - based on his promise to Abraham ~4000 years ago!!!!!

Cheers, YVRLTN!

Except that - taking off my history hat and putting on my legal one - I guess we should say 'his alleged promise to Abraham'.........   - there's no 'hard evidence'........

On a more serious note - put like that, it seems utterly crazy for a group of European refugees to start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate, back in 1948 - and to still be doing it, half a century later, on such (non-existent) evidence.

As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

[Edited 2012-11-16 20:04:51]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

Well, I do believe that they do have a right to exist. Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair. But I will admit that I'm afraid that Israel will not exist in a hundred years time if they continue treading on the path that they're on at the moment. And frankly with everything that has happened to the Jews, that would be very bad indeed.

D.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Seriously??!!!

Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

I say take back Gaza, build a wall at the Gaza border with Egypt, and warn that anyone trying to tunnel under, break through, or climb over it, be shot on site without any warnings. It's been seen time and time again that the people in Gaza are not capable of electing a government, so get rid of them all, and let them be Egypt's problem.

Marc (who is scheduled to go to Israel in less then a month)


User currently offlineEDKA From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 50):
Not 'getting at you,' EDKA, but I find that statement fascinating. I see that you're relatively young, and you are staying in, or live in, Israel. If you really have been 'indoctrinated' into a belief that no place called 'Palestine' ever existed, that explains a lot. Particularly why young Jewish people (who I'm sure are normally no more bloodthirsty than the young people of other religions) often seem so ready to kill Palestinians; they apparently think of the Palestinians as 'interlopers' in a place that, in their minds, belongs to the Jews.

Well, to be precise i never said there was "no place called Palestine" - check my original post.

I said that the there was no country called Palestine, and that it correct. The "place" you are referring to, is the "piece of land" that i mentioned in my post, so we are talking about the same thing, in terms of reference to an area.

But if you want to talk about Palestinian identity i am sure that you will agree that there was no such thing 100 years ago. There were either Palestinian Arabs, Jews or Christians who lived in Palestine....And yes, Palestine was just piece of land that belonged to the anyone who conquered it at any given time.


Saying that, i do believe that Palestinians today deserve their own state and place of their own...


User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1627 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

There are reports now that rockets are being fired from Egypt into Israel.


Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5254 times:

Israel wants what the USA has... mil superiority not only within borders, but for a substantial range beyond. Nobody would sit in Mexico and lob rockets into US cities. That would be ridiculously dumb. They would be dead within hours.

The problem is that Israel's moment in history is different. They are not the USA. Obama does not support their hawkish viewpoint at all. It is time for Israel to understand their own situation better. The present attitude of exceptionalism vs. their neighbors is not going to work long term.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13028 posts, RR: 12
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

As is the pattern of wars over the last 50+ years there, you got to know that this new war will drag in the rest of the world. It will mean the price of oil will go up. The Palestinians will lose and have incentive to do terror acts against Israel, Europe and the USA meaning much more intrusive 'security' when flying and in our daily lives. The militant leaders of Israel will have short-term gains in their political positions. One has to believe that Hamas/Hezbollah forces are getting help from Iran and groups in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries and we know Israel gets far too much in their war machine from the USA government and their mainly Christian supporters in the USA.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 54):
I say take back Gaza, build a wall at the Gaza border with Egypt, and warn that anyone trying to tunnel under, break through, or climb over it, be shot on site without any warnings.

Cadet985, I think you should check the relevant arithmetic. The Gaza Strip is roughly 25 miles long, and, on average, about 6 miles wide, giving it a total land area of only about 135 square miles. It looks tiny on the map, and indeed it is tiny. The problem is, though, that its population is around 1.72 million people; almost certainly the highest population density in the world. That's a measure of how many Palestinians have already been driven out of their ancestral homes in the southern part of Palestine by Israeli soldiers and settlers.

So if you are recommending some sort of 'final solution,' driving the population out, the first question you'll have to answer is who is going to do the job of herding them across the nearest border (presumably into Egypt)? The Israeli government appears to be mobilising something over 100,000 soldiers for the forthcoming attack; that won't be nearly enough to do the job.

And even if, by some miracle, the 'driving out' operation succeeded, who would pay for the resettlement of getting on for another two million refugees? Egypt wouldn't be disposed to do it, and you can bet your life that Israel wouldn't either. So one can expect that the long-suffering United States would have to foot most if not all of the bill.

How much are you personally prepared to pay, by way of extra taxes over the next ten years or so, to pay for the consequences of Israel's (only too likely) next venture into the fields of genocide, deprivation, religious prejudice, and oppression?

[Edited 2012-11-17 05:33:36]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

The BBC will be pleased. This will keep them in copy for a long time. I think it's the only news casting service outside Israel that focuses almost exclusively on Israeli affairs above all other news.

Bring on the weeping journalists and the special programmes.

It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past. What's wrong with sitting round tables and sorting problems out?


User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1406 posts, RR: 16
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 61):
The problem is, though, that its population is around 1.72 million people; almost certainly the highest population density in the world

Just to be the devil's advocate I do not think that statement is true as London with a population 8,174,000 and a land area of 607 sq miles has a population density 13,466 per sq mile

Gaza with a population of 1,720,000 and a land area of 135 sq miles has a population density of 12,740 per sq mile

Anyway carry on with the discussion just being picky

littlevc10


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's all perfectly explainable. The American support from Israel has little to do with the Jewish vote or the disproportionately large influence of Jewish Americans on society, business, and politics. It's all the religious right. The support comes from the evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews need to be restored to the Holy Land for Jesus to return.

You are overgeneralizing. I have nothing to do with evangelicals, but I fully support Israel, having spent some time in that part of the world (on the Arab side - I've never been to Israel). I also think that it should be within the 1967 borders, but until the Palestinians show that they can act in a civilized manner, which so far they have not, I have no problem with Israel kicking the snot out of them whenever they start throwing bombs.

Quoting babybus (Reply 62):
It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past.


Wow. Talk about a Kumbayah mentality.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 62):
It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past. What's wrong with sitting round tables and sorting problems out?

Discussions are usually based on arguments and facts. Religions, the core root of this problem, are not.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5237 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
but until the Palestinians show that they can act in a civilized manner, which so far they have not

It may be constructive to look at a map of the area. Israel has, contrary to International Law, not only seized territory but dispossessed the inhabitants, forcing them into an ever decreasing area. They are building so-called security fences that are intended to completely encircle the remaining areas that have not been taken over by "settlers" or for military purposes. Israel is basically creating ghettos, just like Germany created ghettos in Warsaw and other cities. Very civilised behaviour, copied from the best that Europe had to offer. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is an authority in name only, very much like the Judenrat was the Authority in Warsaw, complete with its Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei.

This continuing forceful dispossession is a fact. Of course pro-Israeli media will justify such actions or simply ignore it. Meanwhile the people who are resisting dispossession are denounced as terrorists. Some Western leaders have half-heartedly (for the sake of appearances) appealed to Israel to halt the settlements but Netanyahu has approved their expansion, arguing the need for "living space" - where have I heard that term before? - and going further to reject negotiation on the basis of the 1967 borders as ridiculous because "it fails to accept the realities on the ground."

It seems clear that Israel and its supporters have no desire to see a Palestinian State. Even where the Israelis have discussed the idea (for the sake of appearances) they insist that any State would see Israel retaining control of its airspace and it would be demilitarised. In effect, Israel would continue to keep control. And as long as Israel has superiority of fire-power and the unconditional political and financial support of the United States the situation is unlikely to change. There is absolutely no imperative for Israel to yield anything. They are the stronger party and they know it.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12322 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
On a more serious note - put like that, it seems utterly crazy for a group of European refugees to start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate, back in 1948 - and to still be doing it, half a century later, on such (non-existent) evidence.

Kind of like those English settlers who showed up in America and Australia and decided they should start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

US and Australia too?

Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair.

It pretty much is an intractable problem for now.

Many aspects of the problem have been raised above.

One I didn't see discussed is that no Palestinian leader is going to be able to close a deal either. It's clear that whatever deal is proposed, there will be significant portions of the Palestinian population who think it isn't good enough, and probably with reasonable amounts of justification. It's also clear that the leaders got their jobs by way of their militancy, and if they make a peace deal they will in essence be eliminating their own job. It's hard to get a bunch of people to turn their swords into plowshares.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5236 times:

If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 72):

If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.

At which point you have to shoot it.

Edit: I'm not recommending a course of action - just pointing out that such a simplistic solution (under the excuse of "being civilized") is no such thing.

[Edited 2012-11-17 09:10:35]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, it was sparked because militant organisations from Gaza are firing rockets at Israel for a decade now, you don't see Israel killing Hamas members when the situation is stable.. But on a serious note, no other independent country on planet earth would stay quiet if its territories were constantly bombarded by home made rockets and mortars for over a decade, hell, some would consider this an act of war right away.. Are you kidding me?! Here are simple statistics, since 2001 when Hamas started launching rockets into Israel there were over 12500 attacks on Israel, over twelve thousand rockets launched into Israel, I'm sorry but blaming Israel is complete BS.

Viper911.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 82):
I'm sorry but blaming Israel is complete BS.

Yes, firing rockets at civilians is completely unacceptable. But does that completely absolve the other side of guilt?

There's a little trend going on... both sides are quick to blame the other side and will accept no responsibility for their actions. Does anyone think that is a recipe for success? Does anyone think this situation is completely one sided?

I'm quick to condemn the Palestinians for launching rockets but that does not mean I'll give Israel a free pass on their wrongs...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1936 posts, RR: 32
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

Yes, and any other country would also consider a foreign power assassinating their elected leaders an act of war too, but Israel does this with impunity to Palestinian leaders all the time too. Similarly, most governments would respond to a complete blockade of their country, or building settlements on their land, etc. etc., as acts of war.

Not making any excuses for Hamas rockets, but two sure are tangoing here...

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Oh...my...God. Let me guess, you are one of the first people to complain about Ahmadinejad saying that Israel must be wiped off the map or pushed into the sea, but you'll happily turn around and ask for a different whole people to be wiped out.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 55):
I said that the there was no country called Palestine, and that it correct. The "place" you are referring to, is the "piece of land" that i mentioned in my post, so we are talking about the same thing, in terms of reference to an area.

But if you want to talk about Palestinian identity i am sure that you will agree that there was no such thing 100 years ago. There were either Palestinian Arabs, Jews or Christians who lived in Palestine....And yes, Palestine was just piece of land that belonged to the anyone who conquered it at any given time.

Yes, every modern nation-state was not a country at one point. With 19th century nationalism most ethnic groups starting in Europe got the idea into their heads that they shared a common history/culture and should have their own state. There were tons of revolutions and wars because of this, basically until the present day. Zionism was an outgrowth of this idea, and the flip-side, so was Arab nationalism, and Palestinian nationalism. Objectively, there is no national group that is more "real" than any other, since every nation is formed by self-perception as an "imagined community" (to quote the scholar Benedict Anderson), and most of this imagining is also myth-making, in all cases. Point is, arguments about Palestine not having been a country in the modern sense or about Palestinians not being a real people are non-starters. Either all ethnic nations are nonsense or none are.


Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
I hear the past being used as justification of what Israel should be doing a lot. "Well Israel wanted a peace treaty but all the Arab countries wanted them dead." Besides that being so broad and misleading, I don't think it describes the situation now. Israel is no longer the weak country fighting for survival--they are the dominant force in the reason, and their treatment of the Palestinians is unwarranted IMO

  


Israel also never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Since 2002 the Arab League has had a standing offer on the table for all Arab states to recognize Israel if they withdraw to the 1967 borders and deal with the Right to Return Issue. Rather than engaging with this plan and negotiating about the details (such as making sure the arrangements for right to return are practical and possible), Israel has simply completely ignored it while claiming that all the Arab nations want Israel destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 68):
But on a serious note, no other independent country on planet earth would stay quiet if its territories were constantly bombarded by home made rockets and mortars for over a decade, hell, some would consider this an act of war right away.. Are you kidding me?

Colombia bombed Ecuador a few years ago, I don't remember Ecuador wiping Bogota out of the map.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

"Speaking about the operation in Gaza – dubbed the "Pillar of Defence" – Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai said: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for 40 years."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/w...-israeli-bombs-pound-gaza.19448610

So now we know....... what an idiot for saying that...... 

I've been thinking until now that Israel will shortly launch a ground invasion. But now I'm not so sure. Most of us feel that the current campaign was started in the interests of winning 'election points' by showing how tough the present Israeli government is - and a ground invasion would presumably also please a lot of voters. There'd obviously be initial Israeli casualties, killed and wounded; but not nearly as many as on the Palestinian side - the Israeli public would probably accept that in the short term.

But the question has to be, what happens after that? Israel just doesn't have enough soldiers to occupy the whole of Gaza on any scale, and, in any case, any kind of longterm occupation, even of part of the Strip, would entail a smaller, but continuing, drain of casualties (given that the occupiers would be facing any number of 'irregulars'). And (again given the Israeli lack of numbers in terms of a full-scale occupation) it's also possible (even probable) that there'd still be some rockets coming over?

Bearing in mind that the election is still two months off, if the situation did turn out that way, it's very possible that the 'gloss would wear off' before voting takes place; and Netanyahu and Co. would get the blame for causing a steady stream of people killed or wounded, with no end in sight.........to their political cost.

I'm therefore 'in process' of changing my mind about the likelihood of a ground invasion. Recent press reports suggest that there is increasing talk of a possible ceasefire - and this article appears to suggest that Netanyahu is now in favour of one:-

"Israeli Prime Minister Banjamin Netanyahu told foreign leaders Saturday that he would agree to a ceasefire if Hamas agrees to stop rocket fire from Gaza."

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-war-truce-967/

The signs are also, though, that Hamas isn't keen on one so far. From the same article:-

"Meanwhile, Hamas also has doubts as to the feasibility of a ceasefire. Senior Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzouk told the Maan Palestinian news agency that he does not expect a ceasefire soon. "There are many calls for a truce but it will not be soon," he said."

Just could be that Israel has 'a tiger by the tail.' Can't let go, but having increasing difficulty holding on too.........

What does everyone else think of the shape of any likely 'end-game' from now on?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

Well the Israelis have been talking tough as they call up 75,000 reservists. Avigdor Lieberman warned of a "crushing response" to come.

"The only way we can achieve peace and security is to create real deterrence via a crushing response that will make sure they don't try to test us again," he said. "This isn't an all-out war but an operation with defined goals." If a ground invasion were authorised Israel would have to "see it through," he said. "This wasn't done during Operation Cast Lead [the 22-day war four years ago], which is why we failed to achieve our goal."

We would have to see it through. Cold and serious words that lead one to enquire what is actually meant by that phrase. Shooting anyone who comes out into the open? Wholesale arbitrary arrest and imprisonment?

While some Arab and Turkish diplomats have been trying to broker an agreement, Hamas says that any truce would be dependent on Israel agreeing to lift its long-term blockade of the territory and agree to end its policy of assassinations. Given a determination to "see it through", is it likely that Israel is willing to agree to either, let alone both?

In the meantime, Israel is reported to have carried out 950 air-strikes against Gaza, including a building that houses local Arab media. The building is also used by foreign media such as Germany's ARD, Italy's RAI and Kuwait. I doubt Frau Merkel ever thought of Germany's main broadcaster as being a 'terrorist organisation." Perhaps Israel does not want any hostile images to emerge when/ if it does decide on a full-scale invasion. They say the first victim in war is truth, so there is an imperative to control the flow of information.

[Edited 2012-11-17 22:40:37]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 72):
What does everyone else think of the shape of any likely 'end-game' from now on?

At this point I think it could be the end game if the Israelis want it to be. They could do whatever they wish to the Palestinian people and I doubt anyone would be willing or able to stop them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 47):

Didn't actually see this before - sorry, illiterate? Refugee camps - as in camps that are housing people that were made refugees on their own land. Would you call that incorrect?

Yes. A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

If Germany had not integrated refugees from the eastern parts of Germany , and in the past decades many more ethnic Germans from Russian provinces, we would not have peace in Europe now. i wrote this here one or two days before a headline article appeared in WELT saying exactly that.

If we had been as stubborn and unwilling to accept facts, like some Palestiniaqn hardliners do, who keep the rest of their people as pawns in this game, we could have a situation where East and West Prussians and Silesians shoot missiles form refugee camps to Poland.

Instead, the lesson we have learned after 1945 was to make peace with all neighbours and Europe should play as a role model for the Middle East-.

The first step should be to acknowledge the existance of Israel and do away with all that crap like sending the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

Keeping refugee camps after more than 60 years is a bad joke and falls back on those who maintain this status quo to keep the hate mongering.

Again, I am not blaming all palestinians for that kind of thinking, but they should stand up against those hardliners who keep firing missiles against Israel. No one can blame the Israeli for firing back when the mouse gets violent again.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21490 posts, RR: 56
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 68):
Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, it was sparked because militant organisations from Gaza are firing rockets at Israel for a decade now, you don't see Israel killing Hamas members when the situation is stable..

The situation was as stable as could be expected when Israel assassinated Al-Jabari. In fact, someone who was involved with negotiating a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas has said that there was progress being made on that front when Al-Jabari was killed.

Now the situation is no longer stable.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5226 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
Instead, the lesson we have learned after 1945 was to make peace with all neighbours and Europe should play as a role model for the Middle East-.

Being an occupied and divided country helped. I doubt that the US, Britain and France, let alone the USSR would have tolerated armed refugee camps lobbing missiles into Poland. And which Europe should play the role model? The Velvet Divorce of the Czech and Slovak Two State Model or the more explosive Yugoslav/ Balkan Wars Model?

But back on topic:

Both Hamas and the PLO have previously offered a negotiated settlement with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders (with some land swaps). As pointed out, the right of return is one sticking point despite UN Resolution 194 (unsupported in the Security Council for obvious reasons). This is a point that Israel is unwilling to concede for the simple reason of demographics. A Jewish State in which Jews are no longer the majority is no longer a Jewish State. So Palestinians can not simply move "back to Israel" and integrate.

The question of integration seems straight forward until you look at it. In neighbouring countries refugees faced various restrictions. In Lebanon, for example, Palestinian refugees were confined to certain areas, barred from citizenship, had restrictions on employment and could not travel abroad. In Jordan the situation is more complex and depends on when a person fled to the East Bank or remained in the West Bank (which was part of Jordan from 1950 to 1967). Some are regarded as being Jordanian citizens while others are not and require work permits, can not attend university without permission and so on. So it is easy to say integrate but often there are barriers in the way.

Incidentally, I am not sure what people think of when they use the term "refugee camps". In many instances they are fully functional towns or cities with normal buildings that you might see anywhere else in the region. In 1948 onwards they may have started out as camps with tents and temporary accommodation but over time they have developed into superficially normal places.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
This is a point that Israel is unwilling to concede for the simple reason of demographics. A Jewish State in which Jews are no longer the majority is no longer a Jewish State. So Palestinians can not simply move "back to Israel" and integrate.

Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1196 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days ago) and read 5211 times:

According to news Israelis have now bombed also office building of local news station. Pretty typical from them, trying to kill news reporters so their war crimes wouldn't get so much publicity. I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

I hope all best to Palestinian freedom fighters.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

On the surface it seems so but given the history of persecution that Jewish people have suffered over centuries it is understandable that they would want a place to call their own.

If one accepts the basic premise for the creation of Israel that there was a need for and a right to a Jewish Homeland, then any such homeland would have to maintain a Jewish majority or pursue some sort of state which deprived a potential non-Jewish majority of equal status. In other words, over time a democratic state would cease to be Jewish both in its ethnic and in its religious composition. The Jewish population would become a minority. It is precisely for this reason that Palestinians had to be expelled in the first place. So yes, as the founders of Israel saw Jewish people as a people (nation if you will, not merely adherents of a particular religion) then it does come down to racial or ethnic demographics.

In my view a single state based on the standards that apply in other democratic states - separation of religion and state, universal suffrage and equal rights enjoyed by all citizens - could not be Jewish. Yet the room for a two state solution is diminishing to the point that any Palestinian State based on Gaza and the West Bank would be unviable. This is recognised by those in this forum and in the media who argue that the Palestinian State is or can be formed out of Jordan - ie. don't give up a single grain of sand currently occupied, let alone any water resources.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
The Jewish population would become a minority. It is precisely for this reason that Palestinians had to be expelled in the first place.

Sorry, Quokkas, simply can't accept that. As you say, a complete population with a 2,000-year history (which took no part in WW2 or the Holocaust) being 'expelled' by force - without compensation of any kind. And, still worse, nearly two million of them being walled up in what you can only call a 'concentration camp' - Gaza........

I'm afraid that I see that as a monstrous injustice - a kind of 'second holocaust.' I'm getting on in years now, but I still hope to live long enough to see at least some measure of justice being granted to the unfortunate Palestinians.

And - sorry again - the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism; out of the same box as apartheid or the Nazi 'master-race' concept.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
The situation was as stable as could be expected when Israel assassinated Al-Jabari.

I'm not sure I can accept the occasional daily rocket fired into Israel and the bomb dropped into Gaza as relatively stable, but I must be governed by the fact that I live in a country where such activity does not take place so will not judge based on my circumstances.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

If what is posted below is also accurate, as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
The question of integration seems straight forward until you look at it. In neighbouring countries refugees faced various restrictions. In Lebanon, for example, Palestinian refugees were confined to certain areas, barred from citizenship, had restrictions on employment and could not travel abroad. In Jordan the situation is more complex and depends on when a person fled to the East Bank or remained in the West Bank (which was part of Jordan from 1950 to 1967). Some are regarded as being Jordanian citizens while others are not and require work permits, can not attend university without permission and so on. So it is easy to say integrate but often there are barriers in the way.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
In my view a single state based on the standards that apply in other democratic states - separation of religion and state, universal suffrage and equal rights enjoyed by all citizens - could not be Jewish.

Why sinlge out Jewish, neither side can have a single state. Which non-Christian country in the region allows fully open Christian worship, Lebanon had a civil war a few decades ago and the Christian militias who were supported by Israel have been virtually wiped from the map. In Egypt Coptic Christians are now in a deep struggle, other faiths in the rest of the region are virtually non-existent, so how exactly can you even submit that a single state can work for two separate faiths which are not tolerant of each other?

If your proposal is that religion be removed from the political arena and laws and constitutions are established to protect each individual faith that works well on paper and appeals to those of us the East and West as an ideal solution which placates our sensitivities, now where and how exactly and with which people are you going to implement such a society in the middle east where the entire civilian and military population and legal systems are based on religion?


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism;

Agreed. Please do not misunderstand.

I am not in any way supporting ethnic cleansing or genocide. But what I have described follows the logic of the Zionist argument. A Jewish State can only remain a Jewish State if Jews are in the majority. And if they can't retain that majority by having a higher birthrate or large scale immigration of diaspora Jews, then they are going to apply other means to achieve it. If they don't resort to forcing people to leave and they don't exterminate them, the only other option is to maintain a system of institutionalised discrimination in which non-Jews are second class citizens.

And despite the rhetoric, this is a position that enjoys the support of countries like the US, Britain and Australia. While no one ever asserts the right of Palestinians to defend themselves when their homes are bulldozed and their orchards uprooted, they all affirm Israel's right to defend itself. Further, when Mahmoud Abbas was trying to garner support for Palestine's bid for UN member status, the US insisted that Abbas "recognise Israel as a Jewish State" and still threatened to use its veto.

Even now, when Abbas is about to put forward a new bid - this time for non-member observer status - the US is threatening to cut of aid and Israel is doing the same. Again, leading Western European governments have also indicated that they will oppose the bid. In Israel itself, MK Yariv Levin (Likud), chairman of the Knesset’s House Committee, told reporters last week that he has a bill ready to be submitted for Knesset approval that authorises the complete incorporation of Judea and Samaria (the area we know as the West bank) as parts of Israel if Abbas goes ahead.

So much for peaceful negotiations, diplomacy and civilised behaviour.

[Edited 2012-11-18 04:46:10]

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

I am opposed to discrimination on the grounds of sex; sexual identity or orientation; race, nationality or ethnicity, disability; age; family status; and religion. I am not sure why you would assume criticism of discrimination in one country to infer acceptance of it in another. Deflection, maybe? I listed the discrimination faced by Palestinians in other countries in response to the question of why they did not integrate. Listing overt discrimination is hardly support for it.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Why single out Jewish,

Because it is Israeli and US politicians who insist on that wording. You'll have to ask them why they do.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
now where and how exactly and with which people are you going to implement such a society

I am not in a position to implement anything but the people in those countries themselves must make that choice. We have seen some movements for change against repressive regimes: Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain and of course the present fighting in Syria. It is significant that during the protests that led to Hosni Mubarak's downfall, the response of many who advocated democratic change was fear. To them democracy was something to be introduced gradually by sane and cautious people under the guidance of experts. It wasn't something that was meant to emerge form the streets. People power may have made a nice slogan but it wasn't something that inspired confidence in the corridors of power. I do not pretend that the outcome is perfect, far from it, and it remains to be seen how far changes in a more democratic direction go or whether the outcome will be a step backwards.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10630 posts, RR: 9
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

As long as the Palestinians, or the official Palestinian organisation does not accept the existence of Israel and enforces punishment against anyone violently acting against it there will be no lasting peace and no negotiation breakthrough.

As long a Israel does proceed with its policy of "politicide", meaning doing everything to destroy the founding of a possible Palestinian state, there will be no lasting peace and no negotiation breakthrough.

The Palestinians have the right to form a state as anyone else does, even if before the conflict there never was a united population. These are millions of people, Israel must see they cannot be treated with lesser rights by holding them in semi-captivity forever. Especially Israel shouldnt do to others what in the past was done to the Jews, segregation, humiliation, less rights. And creating reality by just founding settlements in areas occupied for a long time now but reserved for Palestinians by international decision before 1948 is imho a crime. But absolutely nothing works unless the Palestinians positively accept the reality of millions of Israelis never going away. Both sides have to make wide-ranging compromises apparently none is willing to even think about officially. And as long that is the case the rest of the world should not let themelves be dragged into that conflict.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 84):
I am opposed to discrimination on the grounds of sex; sexual identity or orientation; race, nationality or ethnicity, disability; age; family status; and religion. I am not sure why you would assume criticism of discrimination in one country to infer acceptance of it in another.

Re-read Nav20's response to your post, I quoted his response and listed your facts as you stated them, question was not directed to you.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

If what is posted below is also accurate, as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

What was below was your facts on Palestinian integration or lack thereof in the Middle East.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 84):
Because it is Israeli and US politicians who insist on that wording. You'll have to ask them why they do.

Ok, I took the post in general about the situation on the ground and not technicalities of who actually said it.

My point is that the religions in the Middle East which influence or run the relevant governments today are not tolerant of others, they are in most cases not even legal and must be practised underground.
Until that is addressed I do not see any kind of peaceful co-existence without the rule of the gun, whichever side is in charge.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12322 posts, RR: 25
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10630 posts, RR: 9
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...[/quote]

If thats meant funny let me tell you it isnt. Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12322 posts, RR: 25
Reply 88, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5203 times:

Quoting na (Reply 88):
Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.

What kind of test must be passed? It seems no such test is on the books, from what I've been told, so none can apply to be "German" enough to stop being "guest workers" after three generations in Germany.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10630 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5204 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 89):
What kind of test must be passed? It seems no such test is on the books, from what I've been told, so none can apply to be "German" enough to stop being "guest workers" after three generations in Germany.

I do not really understand what you are trying to say here. If you apply for a German citizenship, you have to sign you´re accepting the German constitution, which among other says, simply put, that the law is above the religion. That means, in conflict, the German law is above the Koran. I do not think that every "guest worker" qualifies as a German here. But, thats a minority among a minority. The wife of a neighbour of a friend of mine wears a Burkah. Her husband is a Salafist (and was recently arrested in a razzia but is free again), a radical muslim of a group actively trying to destroy the German constitution. If he is a German citizen by passport, imho he got it by cheating and should be extradited asap.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 90, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting na (Reply 88):
Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...

If thats meant funny let me tell you it isnt. Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.[/quote]

No, I did not even intend to mean that. But your comparison is valid,

The higher the education, the better the integration. Integration is a very personal matter as well and can happen only in a free society. We offer it to everybody but the indvidual must make the move. Can't be forced.

However, here we are comparing the integration of Germans from the eastern part of Germany which was no longer Germany to the west. That sounds silly in today's world, it wasn't in the 50s.

But they blended in, like Palestinians should easily blend in with other Palestinians.

That article in Die Welt I mentioned also did a nice calculation, if Germans would have had the same fertility rate Palestinians in Gaza still have today, we'd number 550 million. That's about what the whole 27 EU members have.

Of course 550 million Germans of which a great number would impverished and even more would be under 20 and could not be employed, would be a nightmare for the rest of the world.

Understandable. But it also gives something to think about. It is intended by the radical leadership. Dictatorships and radical organisaions need these masses to follow their intentions. To keep the soup simmering.

A responsible Palestinian Government would do everything to come to peace with its next door neighbours which would ultimately lead to prosperity. Hamas does he opposite, they want to keep their people as pawns, keep the manipulable, unfree masses.

The changes must be made in the heads of the people, go away from religion, go away from terroir and accept that israelis have the right to live a peaceful life in their state. Firing up to twelve missiles per day in the direction is blatantly dumb. I mean, they got beaten time over time again. What do these "leaders", rather losers, expect?

They will run their heads against the wall over and over again.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 91, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
, go away from religion, go away from terroir and accept that israelis have the right to live a peaceful life in their state.

This could be said for the Israeli side also. And while we're at it - I still don't know what the exact border of Israel looks like. Honest question - is there actually an exact plan to Israel's borders? If so - they need to stick to their own side of the border period. If not - why not?

Quote:
Firing up to twelve missiles per day in the direction is blatantly

So is killing political leaders (like them or not, they're elected representatives of the people).

D.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 92):
So is killing political leaders (like them or not, they're elected representatives of the people).

The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists. I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 93, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

And do you honestly think that will quell the Palestinians and they'll all of the sudden want peace? Really? Why do you think they are like this in the first place?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1196 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists. I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

Hah, a lot of actions of IDF meet definition of terrorism too. This is typical one sided rubbish where military groups in disagreement with US government & It's Middle-Eastern military base Israel are always labeled as terrorists while groups on other side using very same tactics are just normal soldiers.

I hope Israel will lose all the support it still has and Palestinians finally get their own state that belongs to them and Israelis would also become less racist than they are now and accept other religions and cultures within their borders.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5185 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
I hope Israel will lose all the support it still has and Palestinians finally get their own state that belongs to them and Israelis would also become less racist than they are now and accept other religions and cultures within their borders.

Don't count on it. I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance. Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown. Its an object lesson for Hezbollah and Iran.

http://www.thecommentator.com/articl...aza_exposes_our_deepest_prejudices

Quote:
Gaza exposes our deepest prejudices
As dozens are killed in Gaza, what does it tell us about the news media that so little is heard of the other struggles around the region?

by Media Hawk

As the fighting rages on in the Middle East, spare a moment for the civilians who are being murdered en masse.

No, I'm not talking about in Gaza.

Although any civilian deaths are to be mourned, the onus of blame for Gazan lives being lost is on Hamas, a fact lost on media commentators and producers, but illustrated by the graphic (below) quite well

http://www.thecommentator.com/ckeditor_assets/pictures/76/content_a738uiaccaaj-nz_jpg-large.jpeg


What I mean is that we should spare a moment of thought for Syrians and Iranians.

Gaza dominates the news as the death toll this week climbs to 42 - a staggeringly low statistic considering how many hundreds of raids Israel has made. But we continue for some reason, to ignore the tens of thousands being slaughtered in Syria, and the dozens killed in Iran by their respective regimes.

So far, over 37,000 people have been slaughtered by Assad's regime. And while the international community has had some stern words for the regime, we continue to sit back and effectively ignore the tragedy. Even the media is no longer interested.

In Iran this week, there have been around 81 public executions. Barbaric punishments, including the cutting off of fingers, hangings and floggings continue to blight Iran and yet not a word can be heard from the international community.

Yet we continue to lambast Israel for its tireless efforts in defending its Jewish population in the face of terrorist onslaught.

What does that say about us in the West? I would love to believe that it is simply that many people are instinctively pro-Arab, but the silence on Iran doesn't explain that. I would love to believe it was post-colonial guilt, but I fear it goes much deeper.

Regardless of the reasons behind which we hold Israel to an impossible standard, this does not account for the blackout regarding other areas in the world.

I hope we can all agree that no ones lives should be considered more important, simply because they are the cause of international celebrity or NGO campaigns. I look forwarding to hearing accurate and balanced reporting in future. For obvious reasons I won't hold my breath.


As for Hamas, being in biblical territory only makes it more fitting to quote Hosea 8:7:

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 96, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
A Jewish State can only remain a Jewish State if Jews are in the majority. And if they can't retain that majority by having a higher birthrate or large scale immigration of diaspora Jews, then they are going to apply other means to achieve it. If they don't resort to forcing people to leave and they don't exterminate them, the only other option is to maintain a system of institutionalised discrimination in which non-Jews are second class citizens.

Clearly states why the core tenets of "Jewish state" are impossible to uphold with any honor whatsoever. The idea is flawed.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):

The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists

If that's the best we can do, the only solution is to nuke both sides. That way, people who may be accused of "terror" and people who experience "terror" will all be dead.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1196 posts, RR: 3
Reply 97, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
Don't count on it. I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance. Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown. Its an object lesson for Hezbollah and Iran.

Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5182 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 98):
Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.

Israel reacted when Gazans kept firing rockets at ISRAELI CIVILIANS DURING A CEASE FIRE. They just happened to target the Hamas leader. Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror. Palestinians elected a terrorist organization, therefore they condone terrorism against Israel. What is happening in Gaza was just a bubble waiting to burst, Israel was just waiting for the election to be over so they could protect themselves. It's time for Israel to clean house in Gaza once and for all.

I love how the US kills a whole village in pakistan/astan = oops, carry on. Syria murders 15k people = yawn, who cares. Iran kills people daily via public executions = normal. Israel hits a family in Gaza while attempting to prevent their own actual population from being shelled = OMGWTFBBQSTOPTHEPRESS!!


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 99, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Did a bit of reading up and found, among other things, that the original mistake (which arguably led to the still-developing tragedy that is Palestine/Israel) was actually made by the United Nations in 1947. Other mistakes were made by both the US and British Governments of the time, in the lead-up to partition.

Firstly, UN Resolution 181, passed in November 1947, referred to the setting up of "the Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem." So the corrosive mixture of religion, racial intolerance, and politics that has bedevilled the region ever since was in fact started by the UN - by referring to one side of the argument as a race, and the other as a religion.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Pr...eral%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

The second mistake was made by US President Harry Truman. The date for partition to come into force had been set as 15 May 1948. Truman had no time for the more radical Zionists, and definitely had doubts about the whole principle of the partition (as did many of his senior advisers). But, of course, 1948 was an election year and he was under ceaseless pressure from the Jewish Lobby. In the end, he more or less 'washed his hands' over the whole business, ignored the misgivings of many of his senior advisers, and (as this article shows) appears to have signed the relevant document without giving himself time to read it fully (except the title, which he amended by hand):-

"Truman's rapid signing (within 11 minutes) of the document that recognized the 'new state of Israel' (after learning the new state would be called Israel, the words 'Jewish state' were crossed out and the words 'state of Israel' were inserted) angered members at a United Nations meeting on the Trusteeship. The entire U.S. delegation threatened to resign because they had not been properly informed of the announcement and felt ridiculed. Cuban Ambassador Belt, who had three hours earlier engineered the steering of the Trusteeship proposal through a UN committee, also threatened to leave the United Nations, due to what he perceived as U.S. duplicity."

http://www.alternativeinsight.com/1948_Recognition_of_Israel.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4239748,00.html

The third error was made by the British Prime Minister of the time, Clement Attlee. His predecessor, Winston Churchill, had been very much in favour of the Zionist cause; but the British public had decisively thrown Churchill out in 1945, in the closing days of WW2, and elected Attlee instead. Attlee is on record as having had serious doubts about the wisdom of the partition; and at first (being convinced that the partition process would very likely end in a virtual civil war) he tried hard to slow things down, including putting as much pressure as he could on Truman. But Attlee's problem (you could call it his 'weak point,' I suppose) was that he had served through WW1 as a frontline soldier, and been severely wounded. The British Army had been running Palestine after the War under a UN mandate, and had been ceaselessly attacked by militant Zionists like the 'Stern Gang,' suffering heavy casualties. Attlee clearly decided against leaving British soldiers in Palestine, where they would undoubtedly be 'piggy in the middle' between the Zionists and the Palestinians; so he decided, with the full support of his cabinet, that the British Army would commence its withdrawal from Palestine in February 1948, and complete it on 15th.May 1948 - the very day that the UN had ruled that partition would take effect.

Sorry for the long post - but I hope it's of interest.

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:19:29]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 100):
Did a bit of reading up and found, among other things, that the original mistake (which arguably led to the still-developing tragedy that is Palestine/Israel) was actually made by the United Nations in 1947.

Whether or not it is a mistake, whatever happened, happened. It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace. Dwelling on the past isn't going to help anyone, especially the Palestinians who aren't in the best of situations. IMO, the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 101, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
Incidentally, I am not sure what people think of when they use the term "refugee camps".

That in reality, its really "no" better than one.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
In 1948 onwards they may have started out as camps with tents and temporary accommodation but over time they have developed into superficially normal places.

Well Quokkas, I reckon the tents will be back in vogue once the IDF bombs and flattens everything in sight.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

You bet your bottom $ it is. Just plain outright racial prejudice.
The most extraordinary thing from all of this, is that you'd think the Jews would have learned a lesson from past history, apparently not it seems  
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
On the surface it seems so but given the history of persecution that Jewish people have suffered over centuries it is understandable that they would want a place to call their own.

Quokkas, could the same be said about the Jews ?? They know all about persecution etc, but they sure as hell don't mind doing it to others.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
So yes, as the founders of Israel saw Jewish people as a people (nation if you will, not merely adherents of a particular religion) then it does come down to racial or ethnic demographics.

Then it should be stopped, because its wrong, no if's and but's, its just wrong.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
Yet the room for a two state solution is diminishing to the point that any Palestinian State based on Gaza and the West Bank would be unviable.

Could this be because Israel keeps stealing land and building settlements ?
Then its no wonder there's nothing left and its not "viable"


Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
And - sorry again - the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism; out of the same box as apartheid or the Nazi 'master-race' concept.

Well said NAV20 !
As I stated above in a previous post, Israel needs to stand in front of a very large mirror, one that came from Nazi Germany WW11. I find it simply incredible that there are so many parallels between then, and whats happening in Gaza right now.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
And despite the rhetoric, this is a position that enjoys the support of countries like the US, Britain and Australia.

Well I for one, am ashamed that "our" Government falls over itself, when it comes to supporting Israel, in the way it dose, and the same can be said fore the rest of those countries. I wont even mention the US.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
While no one ever asserts the right of Palestinians to defend themselves when their homes are bulldozed and their orchards uprooted, they all affirm Israel's right to defend itself. Further, when Mahmoud Abbas was trying to garner support for Palestine's bid for UN member status, the US insisted that Abbas "recognise Israel as a Jewish State" and still threatened to use its veto.

Then Quokkas, we need to change that, don't you think ?
How about we start up some threads in "support" of the Palestinians then, you can be first cab of the rank.... !
Because this continual blind support of everything Israel dose, compared to, hurdle after hurdle placed before the Palestinians is really starting to ware thin, VERY thin.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

So you want the status quo to continue, with both parties living under the cloud of war, crazy.         

I'd suggest to you that it will impact more on the daily life if the Israelis than it will on the Palestinians, cause they already live daily life in the toilet, so in that way, it will be intriguing to see how Israelis cope ?


Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance.

Look no further than your own yard powerslide.....

http://www.theage.com.au/world/israe...nst-arabs-poll-20121024-2844m.html

Where's that mirror again ?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown.

And Israel is a thief and a bully and they now live with...."Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"

BTW powerslid, if I were you I wouldn't believe ANY pic that comes from the IDF, although I do like the colours they used to colour in the various sites the IDF "claim" to be missile launching pads. They look very much like houses to me

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.

What about this solution powerslide.... What's say Israel gives back all the stolen land that they've blatantly taken over the decades, any hope of that happening soon perhaps ??

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:47:33]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
like Palestinians should easily blend in with other Palestinians

I think you will find that Palestinians have blended in with other Palestinians. What they haven't achieved is an independent state. The division between Hamas and others is over how to achieve an objective. It is significant (and sometimes forgotten) that when Hamas first formed out of the discontent with the PLO's failure to achieve a state, Hamas received funding from Israel who saw Hamas as a useful tool to weaken the influence of the PLO. So perhaps, it is

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
more fitting to quote Hosea 8:7:"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"
Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group.

Sorry, are you referring to the terrorists who founded Israel or the ones who want to achieve a Palestinian state? People like Menachim Begin were de facto terrorists. The British put a price on his head but he was a welcome guest at the White House and, later, Buckingham Palace. Today's terrorist is tomorrow's statesman.

What do we make of people who have been ministers in the Israeli Government who say that Palestinians are a "cancer" and "dark forces" going on to say, "We have to kill them all". "Expel most of the Judea and Samaria Arabs from here. We cannot be with all these Arabs and we cannot give up the land." These are the words of Efraim Eitam. He also threatened Arab members of the Knesset with "One day we will expel you to Gaza from this house and from the national home of the Jewish people." When the Israeli Army used Nidal Abu Muihsein as a human shield, causing his death, Efraim said this was "very moral" and he later criticised the Supreme Courts banning the practice.

This isn't some lone crank. This is a man who was educated at the Royal Military College in Sandhurst, attained the rank of brigadier general and received the Medal of Distinguished Service. A man appointed to ministerial rank even before being elected to the Knesset and who was Netanyahus' special emissary to the so-called Caravan to Democracy.

But he isn't alone. At the 1993 Likud Convention, Ariel Sharon formally proposed that Israel should adopt the Bibiblical Borders concept as its official policy. Again, not a lone crank but a man who went on to become Prime Minister. But what does the Bible actually say?

Genesis 15:18 "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates"

Deuteronomy 11:24 "Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be."

Not much room there for negotiating on the baisis of the 1967 Borders. Perhaps we are fortunate that today the only mention of rivers in connection with defensible borders is the River Jordan.

[Edited 2012-11-18 18:01:49]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 103, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
Israel reacted when Gazans kept firing rockets at ISRAELI CIVILIANS DURING A CEASE FIRE. They just happened to target the Hamas leader. Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror.

Of course what Hamas is doing is wrong. Not arguing that. I'm saying it's a 2 way street and Israel's actions leading up to this are not the best. The Palestinians do in fact have very legitimate gripes even if they are going about it the wrong way

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
It's time for Israel to clean house in Gaza once and for all.

What does this mean???

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
I love how the US kills a whole village in pakistan/astan = oops, carry on.

Um, we definitely take a lot of flak for our civilian casualties as we should. In fact, we may say "oops, carry on" but the locals get PISSED and that leads to anti-American sentiment and is a major contributor to terrorism against us. Kinda like Israel's actions cause a lot of bitter feelings from Muslims (again, NOT condoning rocketing civilians.) And you want to talk about a double standard, watch the news. You get the sad story of an Israeli that had a "notebook sized piece of shrapnel come through the walls into the bedroom." And then you see, scrolling along the bottom of the TV or just a brief mention, that X number of Palestinians died as collateral damage. No one cares. THAT is a double standard my friend.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
Whether or not it is a mistake, whatever happened, happened. It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace. Dwelling on the past isn't going to help anyone, especially the Palestinians who aren't in the best of situations.

         It is not realistic to send all the Jews out. What happened in 1947/48 (can't remember the year) happened a long time ago. Just like it's unrealistic to send all the Americans back to Europe/Africa/Asia/etc and give the US back to the Native Americans. But this goes both ways... Israel needs to know that the past and present are different--they are now the dominant military force (with nukes) and they aren't getting invaded. They definitely now have an upper hand on the Palestinians...

The failures of the Muslims to make peace with Israel IN THE PAST are done. Yes, they may continue to do shady things but NOW having a 2 state option, for example, is viable (it isn't just GTFO Jews, we want ALL of Israel.)

I think you get what I'm saying

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
IMO, the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.

How would beating down the people even more solve anything? They already live in crappy conditions and know that Israel is the top dog militarily.

Powerslide, do you know the complaint of the average Palestinian??? It ain't "death to all Jews, Israelis get out, give us all of Palestine back" you know. Israel is not perfect, and I can say that without being anti-Israel (just as I can disagree with what my dad says and still love him, for example.)

Can the settlement building be justified?

Can the horrible living conditions in Palestine be justified?

Can we look at the media and really say there is a bias AGAINST Israel?

Can we say Israel does NO wrong and Palestinians don't have ANY legitimate complaints?

We can chide the Palestinians for launching rockets, for blowing up nightclubs, for being reluctant for peace in some situations... but we can't operate on a double standard and let Israel do what they want. BOTH sides must be accountable, BOTH sides have done wrong, and BOTH sides are going to need to compromise to fix this. Israel isn't the golden child that can't do no wrong, they have done some bad things themselves that is affecting the peace process.

Edit: sorry it's a long post, please don't just skip over the whole thing, I'm trying to be objective and fair to both sides as possible...

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:51:48]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 104, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5195 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 103):
It is significant (and sometimes forgotten) that when Hamas first formed out of the discontent with the PLO's failure to achieve a state, Hamas received funding from Israel who saw Hamas as a useful tool to weaken the influence of the PLO.

I forget who, but someone likened Hamas to the Israelis using a hammer to kill a mosquito on their forehead.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Powerslide, do you know the complaint of the average Palestinian??? It ain't "death to all Jews, Israelis get out, give us all of Palestine back" you know.

Mostly they'd like to not be second class citizens and be able to live and work without what is effectively apartheid.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Can we look at the media and really say there is a bias AGAINST Israel?

Not in America.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
What does this mean???

It probably means exactly what you think it means. And the Israelis could pull it off without having anyone do anything substantial about it. Perhaps a slap on the wrist or being called to the principal's office, but that's a small price to pay for a final solution to their Palestinian problem, right?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 105, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Perhaps a slap on the wrist or being called to the principal's office

Perhaps the principal is no longer who it used to be.

Do people recall that in a previous round of discussion with Israel, Obama offered a bribe to Netanyahu. He offered additional aid and access to advanced weapons technology not available to other countries if Netanyahu agreed to halt further settlements. Netanyahu's reply was thank you, we'll accept your offer but on condition that you never raise the question of settlements again. The deal fell through. Obama wasn't prepared to be humiliated that much. But equally, the US since has been less insistent on a halt to further settlements.

The relation between Israel and the US has changed. Israel is not a client going cap in hand or needing a protector. It calculates that it will be supported by the US and that the Arab states are not a threat, regardless of what the leaders of those states say for internal consumption.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 106, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 102):
As I stated above in a previous post, Israel needs to stand in front of a very large mirror, one that came from Nazi Germany WW11. I find it simply incredible that there are so many parallels between then, and whats happening in Gaza right now.

Oddly enough, there is in fact an almost exact parallel in relatively recent times - the Warsaw Ghetto. Large numbers of Jews being 'walled up' in a small, confined area; guarded by soldiers, shot if they attempted to escape, and allowed virtually no contact with the outside world. They rebelled in the end, and were 'dealt with' by the German Army:-

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/warsaw.htm

For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 107, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?

It is pretty similar, but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis... we can't give a pass to any side's wrongdoing (I know you weren't trying to do that but if I learned anything from this thread, you have to go out of your way to be ridiculously "fair" to both sides or else you're a zionist or anti-Semite)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7171 posts, RR: 17
Reply 108, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 98):
Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.

   Israel's attack was reactionary to more rocket attacks inside Israeli territory, so your statement is false.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 109, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
It is pretty similar, but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis...

The parallel 'covers' that aspect too, DeltaMD90. The people in the ghetto eventually took up arms and started shooting:-

"However, the remaining Jews knew by now that deportation meant death and chose to resist. A Jewish Fighting Organization, ZOB, had been formed, consisting of 22 groups, each having 20 to 30 men, boys and some women. The group had sent desperate appeals for weapons to anti-Nazi Poles outside the ghetto and were supplied with enough weapons to successfully resist deportation by attacking from rooftops, cellars and attics. As a result, 20 Germans were killed and 50 wounded.

"The Jewish resistance, combined with the severe winter weather and a shortage of trains, prevented the SS from meeting Himmler's February deadline."


Guess it's a case of 'one man's crime is another man's resistance movement.'  

The Free French did the same sort of thing in WW2. No-one says those guys were 'criminals'?

[Edited 2012-11-18 19:12:38]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 110, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 110):
The parallel 'covers' that aspect too, DeltaMD90. The people in the ghetto eventually took up arms and started shooting:-

But mostly not at civilians.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5195 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
Oddly enough, there is in fact an almost exact parallel in relatively recent times - the Warsaw Ghetto. Large numbers of Jews being 'walled up' in a small, confined area; guarded by soldiers, shot if they attempted to escape, and allowed virtually no contact with the outside world. They rebelled in the end, and were 'dealt with' by the German Army:-

I don't really agree. the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians because they are not Jews. The Germans killed them because they were Jews. As mush as it may not look like it the Israelis are not targeting civilians, they are going after Hamas targets. The Israelis are not attempting mass genocide as the Germans did.....Pretty sure the hundreds of press on hand in Gaza puts to rest the idea of no contact with the outside world.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21490 posts, RR: 56
Reply 112, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace.

That statement is not compatible with this one:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation

Israel will not find peace by inflicting pain on Gaza. It will not happen.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Mostly they'd like to not be second class citizens and be able to live and work without what is effectively apartheid.

   The Palestinians want a better life for themselves. They don't care about Israel, other than to be pissed at Israel for the actions that Israel takes, whether justified or not, that make the Palestinian territories a pretty crappy place to be. And if Hamas can give them more order, better working conditions, better pay, more stability, etc., they'll vote for Hamas. It would be illogical for them not to. Why should we expect them to vote the way Israel would want them to vote when they're not Israeli?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 113, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
I don't really agree. the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians

You could sure have fooled me.........

"ISRAELI air strikes overnight killed 31 Palestinians in the bloodiest day so far of its massive air campaign on the Gaza Strip, as diplomatic efforts to broker a truce intensified.

With Egypt at the centre of efforts to broker a ceasefire, Palestinian officials said it was possible a deal would be reached "today or tomorrow."

"But there was no letup in the bloodshed in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, with medics saying women and children accounted for at least 14 of Sunday's 29 killed, among them five babies and toddlers, in Israeli strikes from the air.

"In the day's most lethal raid, at least nine members of the same family -- five of them children -- were among 10 people killed when an Israeli missile destroyed a family home in Gaza City, the health ministry said."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-d...hamas/story-fn7ycml4-1226519281924

Admittedly, they're not actually shooting them - they're bombing them from about 10,000 feet. But that appears to be the only difference?

[Edited 2012-11-18 19:37:48]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 114, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
But mostly not at civilians.

In the latest round of fighting the majority of civilians have been killed as a result of Israeli strikes. Israel justifies this, while saying it is regrettable, on the grounds that Hamas uses people as human shields. They used that argument to justify bombing a building used by Britain's SkyTV - it was a target because it had an antenna which Israel argues was being used to organise attacks and that British journalists were merely human shields. As far as I am aware journalists generally are civilians.

Hamas counters by arguing that all adult Israelis are either in the IDF or reservists and therefore legitimate targets. Besides which, all the people being forcibly displaced by Israeli settlers are civilians.

So each side kills civilians and each has "justifications". When one side does it, it is regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage. When the other side does it, it proof of how inhumane, savage and cowardly they are. It all depends on who is doing the reporting.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 115, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 115):

I am a critic of Israel's actions, but there is a BIG difference between them and what the Nazis did. They at least aren't targeting civilians (it is collateral damage) and the Jews in the ghetto truly did nothing wrong, while the Palestinians at least fired missiles.

I even drew a slight comparison to what the Israelis did and what the Nazis did, but there are notable differences, and I think it's unfair to not point them out.

Neither side are saints and both have their flaws



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 116, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?

If only!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis...

Yes, but there are a fair few Palestinians who are innocent too.Nearly 50% the population of 1.6 million in Gaza, are children, so there a fair few already!

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians because they are not Jews.

Utter Rubbish

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/336788

And there are many more examples!

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
Pretty sure the hundreds of press on hand in Gaza puts to rest the idea of no contact with the outside world.

Oh you mean the ones that were just bombed by the IDF....

And I quote

"The strikes on the media centers hit two high-rise buildings, damaging the top floor offices of the Hamas TV station, Al Aqsa, and a Lebanese-based broadcaster, Al Quds TV, seen as sympathetic to the Islamists.

A Gaza press association said six Palestinian journalists were wounded, including one who lost a leg. Foreign broadcasters, including British, German and Italian TV outlets, also had offices in the high-rises."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
But mostly not at civilians.

Sorry, don't buy it.
There are way to many examples to completely bury that statement.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
They at least aren't targeting civilians (it is collateral damage) and the Jews in the ghetto truly did nothing wrong, while the Palestinians at least fired missiles.

I am not to sure about that DeltaMD90. That is certainly the story we are all feed by the super slick Israeli PR machine of which Mark Regev seems to be maters spokesperson for.
When you have a place the size of Palestine/Gaza or whatever it is you want to call it, and you bomb it, you will always have innocent civilians, the place just isn't big enough for civillians to escape to a safer place, and the Israelis know that FULL WELL.
So to imply that they are not going after civilians is disingenuous to say the least , IMHO

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
Neither side are saints and both have their flaws

But you'd have to agree, its hardly a level playing field now is it ?

[Edited 2012-11-18 20:05:55]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 117, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Yes, but there are a fair few Palestinians who are innocent too.Nearly 50% the population of 1.6 million in Gaza, are children, so there a fair few already!

Yes I know, sorry if I implied otherwise

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
I am not to sure about that DeltaMD90. That is certainly the story we are all feed by the super slick Israeli PR machine of which Mark Regev seems to be maters spokesperson for.

I've seen some shady things, but I don't think they'd intentionally kill civilians. They don't have hearts of gold but I don't think they'd do that (that's pretty sick.) What would be the point anyway? If anything, it hurts Israel in any way you can spin it

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
Neither side are saints and both have their flaws

But you'd have to agree, its hardly a level playing field now is it ?

No it's not, at all. A big problem I see, however, is neither side wants to admit their flaws. I'm not putting a % on "who's fault it really is" because that does no good and really doesn't matter... each side NEEDS to make some serious concessions in order to achieve peace



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 118, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Sorry, don't buy it.
There are way to many examples to completely bury that statement.

I meant in the Warsaw ghetto. That's the difference between that and the Palestinians: the Jews in Warsaw were mostly not shooting at Polish or German civilians.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19369 posts, RR: 58
Reply 119, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 119):
I've seen some shady things, but I don't think they'd intentionally kill civilians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ed_n_2155932.html?utm_hp_ref=world

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods."

The little dirty secret that nobody ever talks about is how a lot of very pro-Israel Jews (call them "Zionists" if you like) will sit around at cocktail parties telling jokes about killing Arab babies. I know this because I have these folks in my family. I want to throttle them and say: "Don't you realize you sound like the very same Nazis that are supposedly the reason we needed Israel in the first place?"

There are huge numbers of right-wing Jews who view Palestinians, and Arabs in general, as being sub-human. They may not be targeting civilians, but the problem with a terror war is that, "In a war like this, there are no civilians." And certainly, I doubt that Ariel Sharon or any of his cabinet will shed one molecule of tear over a dead Palestinian child.

To be sure, the opposite is true, as well. Palestinians view Israelis as plague monsters and baby killers. Perhaps they have earned it or not. I doubt the higher-ranking officials in Hamas care if an Israeli child dies and might even rejoice at the idea of one less soldier for the IDF.

The end result is this: both sides have a hatred of each-other than runs in the blood. I honestly do not believe that the violence will stop until there is complete genocide on one side or the other.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 120, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

Sorry I 'flew off the handle' a bit, guys, but I am a bit of a rarity among A.netters - in that I've been bombed myself in my time.

Mostly it was a matter of sleepless nights in the shelter - but one particular raid - in 1944 - sticks in my memory.

The Germans had stopped sending over big raids by that time, and their activity was limited to 'cloud cover raids' - a few (very brave) aircrew coming over in fast aeroplanes on cloudy days.

My brother and I were playing in the front garden (on our own, both our parents had to travel into London every day). As it happened, there were Italian prisoners mending the road and German prisoners trimming the hedges, both parties guarded by British soldiers.

We all heard aircraft engines. The Italians and British shouted to us to lie down, and two 'effing great' Germans rushed into the garden and crouched over us.

The aeroplane ('big brother' later told me that it was a Messerschmitt 110) roared low over our heads, but there were no bombs. Instead he left us alone, made a tight turn, went back the way he had come, and bombed a military-looking hutted camp just outside the village.

The 'black comedy' of the situation was, of course, that the camp in question was a prison camp full of Germans and Italians.......

Anyway, again, sorry for the 'fit of temper' - but, as it happens, I DO know what it feels like to be bombed, and how the Gazans (and their kids) feel about it - and I wouldn't wish it in anyone.......

And yes, I know that the Gazans are sending rockets over too - but they're only using virtually 'home-made' stuff which isn't accurate and doesn't cause much damage; and very few Israelis have been killed or hurt. The Israelis are using 'the real McCoy' - thousand-pounders and up - and hundreds of Palestinians have already been killed or wounded. It's a totally unequal 'contest'......and I just KNOW how the ordinary innocent Palestinians are feeling, night after night - parents AND kids........

Anyway, rant over, apologies again......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 121, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
Sorry I 'flew off the handle' a bit, guys, but I am a bit of a rarity among A.netters - in that I've been bombed myself in my time.

NAV20, defiantly no need for apologies, at least not from where I stand.

In ALL your posts, not only in this thread about Israel, but previous ones too, you have been nothing buy fair, in your appraisal of the situation going on over there. Your historical knowledge of the ME landscape, especially Israel/Palestine is also to be noted.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
and I wouldn't wish it in anyone.......

Yes, I can only imagine what that must be like......
I have heard many bombing stories from relatives in Holland during the war, funnily enough, most of the damage was done by the Yanks and the Brits trying to get the Germans, which they mostly missed !!



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1137 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Death toll so far for the most recent part of the conflict:
Palestinians/Gazans: 92
Israelis: 4 or 5
Interestingly. The total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel is 26. This is since June 2004.
Israel is using the same 'surgical strikes' which killed 1,200 Lebanese, most of them civilians, in 2006, and the 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, in Gaza in 2008-9.

What I find interesting is all the pro-israeli propaganda coming from the IDF. A few days ago there was a fake image purporting to show that Gazans store their rockets directly under hospitals and they have a widget thingy that counts rocket attacks from Gaza that is massively inaccurate (even by its own numbers).

Gilad Sharon (a former Israel PM's father) wrote an interesting piece in the JP recently. According to him Israel needs to
'flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima - the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.' He also mentioned that ''There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing.'

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.
But as the old proverb says, you cannot live in peace if your neighbour don't let you.

Not much of a democracy when one many elements of one ethnic group don't want the other to have the right to vote. For the record Egypt and Jordan both have elected governments (with Jordan being a constitutional monarchy) and Hamas won municipal elections in Gaza.
http://www.dw.de/israelis-debate-sig...nce-of-apartheid-survey/a-16349215

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp?

You make it sound like moving out of Gaza and around the West Bank is easy for those who live there. This isn't Israel where a substantial component of the population arrived in passenger jets from lands a-far, get paid to live there (or at least have a vast proportion of their living costs covered by various organisations) and where those who live there can move about internally with ease.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 34):
So why is it that in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, that the majority of the continuing dispossession of Palestinians is taking place.

What I find really scary is the settlers who are colonizing the West Bank. Many of them are some of the most extremist and intolerant right wingers about. Many videos (including the one below) will attest to this. I also find it sickening how when Israeli settlements are built, the water supply previously enjoyed by the local Palestinians is often cutoff and diverted to the new settlements. This has the obvious effect of making the Palestinians leave so their land can be claimed by settlers when needed. But because of the WWII Holocaust the world is apparently all ok with this.   
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d95_1182673079
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle.../2009/10/20091026132714361238.html
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/12/1...raelwest-bank-separate-and-unequal

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
and how much of this is Palestinians' own fault?

Palestinians didn't cause the WWII Holocaust. How exactly would you have dealt with boat loads of migrants coming to your shores, conquesting your lands, treating you like a second class citizen, declaring sovereignty and creating a state whose very basis is on one's ethnicity (something out of one's own control)?.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 46):
Everything around there would be so much easier if Jerusalem wasn't so important to three major religions or alternatively if humans weren't so incredibly stupid.

   Additionally (and speaking as a highly puritanical christian) the problem is also based on people believing that a holy book gives them entitlement to a worldly possession/commodity (land). It will never work, even if everyone accepts that holy book as law and truth.   

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

I agree though I doubt things are going to change any time soon, AIPAC and its siblings are too powerful. It would be nice if a few rich mid-east states banded together and formed a lobby group to counter its influence. What I also find very worrying is the rise of various lobby groups, similar to AIPAC, in other parts of the world. I read a column in The Spectator Australia magazine last year where the author was praising the founders of one (can't remember its name) and noting its achievements and effects. Here in New Zealand we have a lobby group that routinely buys up advertising space in the national newspapers (which apparently are too biased against Israel) and reports a hard right-wing Israeli perspective on matters. IMO, its only a matter of time before they start trying to buying up politicians like AIPAC does. Thankfully our electoral system is somewhat more transparent than that of the US, particularly when it comes to donations/money.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 65):
The Israeli government has been willing to go to negotiations with the Palestinians for a long time with no preconditions.

A settlement freeze is hardly an unreasonable precondition. Anyhow, since Rabin's death, Israel has had no interest in peace, just in conquesting more and more of the West Bank so as to make a Palestinian state unviable. Participating in peace talks just gives Israel a prettier face while the aforementioned actions happen.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 34):
Tell a Palestinian mother who sees her house being bulldozed in front of her children that Israel is her friend when they allow thugs to trample their olive trees while the IDF looks on and will only intervene to protect the "settlers".
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
NO ONE is defending the Palestinians launching rockets and killing civilians.
Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
Well, I do believe that they do have a right to exist. Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair.
Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
But I will admit that I'm afraid that Israel will not exist in a hundred years time if they continue treading on the path that they're on at the moment. And frankly with everything that has happened to the Jews, that would be very bad indeed.
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 66):
If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
As you say, a complete population with a 2,000-year history (which took no part in WW2 or the Holocaust) being 'expelled' by force - without compensation of any kind. And, still worse, nearly two million of them being walled up in what you can only call a 'concentration camp' - Gaza........
Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Hah, a lot of actions of IDF meet definition of terrorism too. This is typical one sided rubbish where military groups in disagreement with US government & It's Middle-Eastern military base Israel are always labeled as terrorists while groups on other side using very same tactics are just normal soldiers.
Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
Israel will not find peace by inflicting pain on Gaza. It will not happen.

  

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

   Sadly several international leaders actually believed it.   

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists.

Israelis don't show they want peace when they treat Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank like second class citizens, build settlements in the West Bank and colonize them so as to make the population balance favor Israel (not to mention all the other stuff such as cutting off access and water to Palestinians), blockade Gaza to prevent economic improvement, use White Phosphorus (which the US classifies as a chemical weapon) over civilian neighborhoods (including schools), and use overwhelming force in Gaza and Lebanon which kills scores and scores of civilians.... and then claim that all of this is OK because of the WWII Holocaust. As someone who is mildly Armenian, I find that using a past genocide to justify foreign policy and war to be sickening. A genocide doesn't give a people the right to do what ever the hell they like and to be above international law (and common decency).

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror.

And Palestinians don't? Does the bombing during the night of build up areas/civilian neighborhoods and refugee camps not count as acts of terror?
Personally, I'd like the Palestinians to abandon rockets in favor of a proper air defense system to keep out Israeli F-16s, Herons and other military aircraft. Unfortunately they aren't exactly rolling in cash, so any air defense system would have to be donated.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 122):
In ALL your posts, not only in this thread about Israel, but previous ones too, you have been nothing buy fair, in your appraisal of the situation going on over there. Your historical knowledge of the ME landscape, especially Israel/Palestine is also to be noted.

   Keep up the good work, NAV20. You are on my respected user list for good reason.  



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Let's see..
Palestinians circumvent embargo to get missiles. Launch missiles at Israel. Demand removal of embargo to stop firing missiles.

I have sympathy for those caught up in the tragic undertakings of the under trained and ill prepared Hamas, but it would seem to me that the Embargo is in place for good reason, and the citizens of Palestine would do well to take some anger out on Hamas that continually puts them in more mortal danger.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 124, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 122):
I have heard many bombing stories from relatives in Holland during the war, funnily enough, most of the damage was done by the Yanks and the Brits trying to get the Germans, which they mostly missed !!

Yes, not very accurate. I met my share of people who were involved.

The British flew mostly by night (until late in the War, anyway). They almost never saw their targets clearly; they mostly bombed 'target-markers' - coloured flares dropped by the more skilled crews, the Pathfinders, who flew ahead of the 'bomber stream.' And sometimes visibility was so poor that they couldn't even see the flares, let alone the targets, in which case they 'bombed on ETA' ('Estimated Time of Arrival') - dropped their bombs when the navigator's Swiss watch said that, according to the flightplan, they were over the target. Sounds bad, dropping bombs pretty well at random; but a Lancaster carried up to about 8 tons of bombs, they simply didn't have the fuel to fly all the way back to the UK with a full bombload, so they had to jettison anyway.......

USAAF bombing crews were not trained in night-flying, so they went in daylight. They suffered dreadful losses against the Luftwaffe fighters. To deal with the fighters at all they had to fly in tight formation, of course - which meant that individual aircraft didn't aim their bombs at all, they just watched the formation leader and dropped when he did. That's the origin of the term 'carpet-bombing.'

Thankfully (given that there is no flak, and no Spitfires around!) the Israeli bombers can fly in daylight and aim their bombs carefully. And, of course, they can fix their position exactly by use of GPS etc. The Israeli PR people say that they are bombing specific targets (like the homes of resistance leaders etc.) and, by and large, I believe them. But the problem there is the 'radius of destruction,' 'collateral damage.' I saw the results of that effect often enough during and after the War - a bomb dropped on one house usually wrecked three or four neighbouring ones as well, even in the 1940s; and bombs are much more powerful now.

The 'bottom line' is, however accurate your bombsights are, you simply can't bomb populated built-up areas without killing or maiming large numbers of ordinary people; the vast majority of whom, in this case, will have nothing to do with organisations like Hamas.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 125, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 125):
The 'bottom line' is, however accurate your bombsights are, you simply can't bomb populated built-up areas without killing or maiming large numbers of ordinary people; the vast majority of whom, in this case, will have nothing to do with organisations like Hamas.

Which is why, under the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements, a) belligerents have a duty to base themselves and their activities away from civilian populations as much as possible. Using civilians as human shields while you are shooting from behind them is a war crime. And b) if your enemy hiding behind civilians and you can't get a clear shot at him without also hitting civilians, you can go ahead and take him out.

As far as UN treaties is concerned, when Israel takes out a terrorist commander or a missile battery and civilians get hurt, the atrocity was done by the militants, for not separating themselves away from civilian populations.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 126, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117):
Utter Rubbish

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/336788

And there are many more examples!

From your own article:

"The Associated Press reports that the deadly incident occurred after Palestinian resistance fighters fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli jeep patrolling Israel's border with Gaza. Four Israel Defense Forces (IDF) troops were wounded in the attack, one of them seriously.
Israeli troops then returned tank and machine gun fire into a residential area, killing four young men identified by the New York Times as Ahmed Mustafa Harara, age 17; his cousin Muhammad Osama Harara, also 17; Mattar Abu Alatta, 19; and Ahmed Kamil Dardasawi, 20. The four young men were among many who were gathered in a funeral tent who rushed to help after the first Israel shell struck. They were killed, and many more wounded, when a second round was fired."

The IDF is firing back into an area where they were fired upon. Guess what, if I am a civilian and I see a war going on, how about I stay the hell away from the scene. If HAMAS chooses to fire from residential areas then there will be collateral damage. This a plain and simple fact of war. The Israelis are not lining children up on the streets and executing them (i.e. the warsaw Ghetto). And before you start saying that 1 or 2 soldiers went rouge and did this, yes I am sure that is true. But in an Army of 200k, you will have a few psychos.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9144 posts, RR: 29
Reply 127, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 103):
What they haven't achieved is an independent state. The division between Hamas and others is over how to achieve an objective

they can acknowledge and guarantee the existance of Israel once and forever and then the move is with Israel. The coward Arafat did npot sign the Camp David agreement, had he done so, we might not need to talk abvoiut violenve in the Middle east today.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 123):

Not much of a democracy when one many elements of one ethnic group don't want the other to have the right to vote. For the record Egypt and Jordan both have elected governments (with Jordan being a constitutional monarchy) and Hamas won municipal elections in Gaza.

Israel is a democracy with all checks and balances. Jordan works quite well as a constitutional monarchy and sdeserves respect. If Egypt becomes a real democracy remains to be seen. Calling aza , ruled by hamas, a democracy is a joke. I mean, of course you can get a good vote after killing the key people of the opposition. But that does not make it a democracy.

. .



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 128, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5181 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
The coward Arafat did npot sign the Camp David agreement, had he done so, we might not need to talk abvoiut violenve in the Middle east today.

Do you actually know what he was supposed to give up in that agreement? It was utterly unfair to the Palestinian people and was not acceptable by any Palestinian.

Conditions as offered:
- The state would not have an army with heavy weapons,
- The state would not make alliances with other countries without Israeli approval and would not allow introduction of foreign forces west of the River Jordan.
- Israel would be allowed deploy troops in the Jordan Valley if Israel were to be threatened by invasion from the east.
- Israeli aircraft could overfly Palestinian airspace.
- Israeli would install early warning stations in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley and other areas.
- Palestinians would control border crossings with Jordan and Egypt along with Israeli security observation.
- The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.
- Israel would lease areas in the Jordan Valley or maintain temporary sovereignty over them for up to 25 years.

In regards to refugees:

- Israel would not accept any legal or civilian responsibility for their displacement.
- Israel would allow the return of around 100,000 refugees under “humanitarian” grounds in the form of family reunions and considers such a step as compliance with UN Resolution 194.
- According to one source, the Palestinian State would be limited in the number of refugees it could absorb to half a million refugees according to a fixed timetable. This is not confirmed by other sources and is problematic, since a much larger number of refugees, well over a million, already live in camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
- An international fund would compensate refugees. Israel, the U.S. and Europe are to contribute. According to one source, this fund would also provide compensation to Jews who were forced to leave their possessions in Arab countries when they fled to Israel.

Jerusalem was also divided up in a matter more suitable to the Israelis, Israel would retain the privilege roads within Palestine in emergencies (...).

Very fair and autonomous. Would Israel give the same privileges to the Palestinians in Israel then?

D.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5166 times:

my question is this..in some of the reports im reading about the fighting...they said kids are women are near the media offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or very close by to rocket launching sites. What the hell are they doing there??!! Unless Hamas is purposely putting people there...i dont know. And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Here is a fun one from those lovely journalists at the BBC.....Report first...facts later

http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-...son-tweets-malicious-fauxtography/


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 130):
And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

Well Gaza is a small place with a large population. Not many places to hide, whoever you are unfortunetly ...

Quoting damirc (Reply 129):
- The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.

This is a very important point. Israel is basically controlling the water supply today and no doubt a continuation of this under a deal will not be acceptable to the Palestinians. Not really difficult to understand...


User currently offlinekachum From Belarus, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 120):
The little dirty secret that nobody ever talks about is how a lot of very pro-Israel Jews (call them "Zionists" if you like) will sit around at cocktail parties telling jokes about killing Arab babies. I know this because I have these folks in my family. I want to throttle them and say: "Don't you realize you sound like the very same Nazis that are supposedly the reason we needed Israel in the first place?"

Having been to such cocktail parties myself, I would dare to suggest that this is a pathology, not a norm.

But surely you will agree that the moment the Palestinians stop the violence there will be no more violence over there.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 133, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 127):
From your own article:

Sorry, misunderstood you, therefore posted wrong link.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 112):
As mush as it may not look like it the Israelis are not targeting civilians, they are going after Hamas targets.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 130):
my question is this..in some of the reports im reading about the fighting...they said kids are women are near the media offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or very close by to rocket launching sites. What the hell are they doing there??!! Unless Hamas is purposely putting people there...i dont know. And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

Hamas might be the intended target in Gaza by the IDF, but with a land mass size of only 136sq miles or (360 sq km) it is not t0 difficult to see how lots of innocent victims, will also become targets, only because of where they live, there are no other options like moving away.
So in a way they are going after civilians, and the Israelis know that full well.

Quoting kachum (Reply 133):
But surely you will agree that the moment the Palestinians stop the violence there will be no more violence over there.

I wouldn't be "sure" about that......

Not when this occurs from the Israeli side  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...er-attack-terrorist-us-palestinian



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 134, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 134):
I wouldn't be "sure" about that......

Not when this occurs from the Israeli side  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...er-attack-terrorist-us-palestinian

But you know what the difference is? The Israelis will actually handle this and put Justice to the situation instead of making these thugs heroes and martys and handing out candy at the site of innocent blood being spilled

from the article above:

"Jamal Julani, 17, from East Jerusalem, was admitted to hospital in a critical condition and placed on a respirator in the intensive care unit. A 19-year-old Jewish man was arrested, and further arrests were expected. A police spokesman described the incident as a brawl, and said it had no connection to settlers."


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 135, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Ugh... so many posts here, so many people either blindly defending one side or the other. THAT is why peace is so hard, neither side is owning up to their side's flaws


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 136, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
Ugh... so many posts here, so many people either blindly defending one side or the other.
THAT is why peace is so hard, neither side is owning up to their side's flaws

Unfortunately very true.  I am sorry to say but I feel I need to defend the Palestinians - they are the weaker party in this (and guilty as well as the Israelis, but whether it's 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 or whatever - in the end it's irrelevant) and they do need their viewpoint presented also. Being brought up Roman Catholic (my ancestors on both sides of the family (several generations back though) are Jewish) I do feel somewhat Jewish, I do read lots of Jewish historic books and I do sincerely wish to convert (although it's a whole different thing, if they'd have me ), but even with all that mind I can not blindly agree with what Israel says and does. There - I'm outed now  

D.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 137, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
As it happened, there were Italian prisoners mending the road and German prisoners trimming the hedges, both parties guarded by British soldiers.

Being snippy, the Brits were actually abusing the human rights of their prisoners by having them work on the infrastructure of their enemy??????

Quoting zkojq (Reply 123):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

Sadly several international leaders actually believed it.

Yes, the USA actually bombed the Chinese embassy during the Kosovo campaign, did we ever find out what they were actually trying to destroy in the embassy?

So to be clear, if the out-come of this latest round of violence is that the Palestinians get a state in the West Bank and Gaza, Jerusalem becomes the capital of both nations and Israel is allowed to exist that all will be well between the two sides and Israelis and Palestinians will start working together?

Who on either side will agree to the above, which world army will put troops in the region to ensure that the conditions are abided by, and before we get onto existing treaties, the mother of all agreements in the region is on shakey ground if we take everything coming out of Egypt at face value.


User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2038 posts, RR: 6
Reply 138, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Looks like Hezbollah wants to start another war from their end as well:

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sec...s+south+Lebanon/7570317/story.html

This goes to show that Iran is driving this whole thing. The boom was being lowered on them, and their cronies in Syria are losing ground. This is their Plan B to buy more time.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 139, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 139):
Unfortunately very true.  I am sorry to say but I feel I need to defend the Palestinians

Yeah and ironically I actually support Israel. But I support Palestine as well (I feel that you can support both, you don't need to be a slave to either side.)

And honestly, I can really blame Israel for wanting to go into Palestine.

I know the Palestinians use propaganda, and I was not surprised at all to find out that some of the photos of dead children were from Syria.

Honestly, I don't have a good answer to Israel going into Palestine. All things aside, Hamas is launching rockets into civilian populations... no matter the circumstances, that is inexcusable and I can't chide Israel from wanting to go in.

I think going in would kill many people from both sides... the death toll from the rockets so far is 3 I believe. I can't think of a better solution to stopping the rockets but there may be ones out there. Because going in and killing hundreds (maybe thousands) of Palestinians while losing dozens/hundreds of Israeli troops is hardly optimal, considering their missile defense is working so well and casualties are low.

My main criticism is how Israel is treating the Palestinians outside this conflict. It enrages me to no end when I hear people brush away ALL the wrongs Israel has committed just because "Hamas launched some rockets" or "they launched rockets near a school." OK that is definitely a justification for something, but it hardly justifies the continuous settlement building and treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens.


*** I still haven't got an answer... can anyone hear justify Israel's bad actions (when rockets aren't flying) like settlement building? They've done this for years, so "Hamas doing something bad today" doesn't justify anything. *** Anyone?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinekachum From Belarus, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5148 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
*** I still haven't got an answer... can anyone hear justify Israel's bad actions (when rockets aren't flying) like settlement building? They've done this for years, so "Hamas doing something bad today" doesn't justify anything. *** Anyone?

Ok, I will bite. What is so wrong about settlement building in the area that you won in the defensive war, then offered to give it back right away in exchange for mere peace agreement and was flatly refused? By what standard on this Earth is this wrong?

[Edited 2012-11-19 17:28:23]

[Edited 2012-11-19 17:29:02]

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3622 posts, RR: 5
Reply 141, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5147 times:

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):

The West Bank has never formally been annexed by Israel. It is a piece of land that an occupying force is controlling through military means, against the will of the people that live there. Even if Israel refuses to call it that, it is an occupied territory. You cannot settle occupied territory and displace the existing population. Wherever that has happened it has met international condemnation and for good reason.

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):
By what standard on this Earth is this wrong?

The UN, EU, Arab League (ok a bit biased), International Law. Whether or not some agree with it, the West Bank continues to be occupied territory in the eyes of most nations and international law. The US kind of condemns it, even if it just calls it "unproductive" in peace-talk terms.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 142, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):

Thanks for responding. I will admit that I am not a subject matter expert and any person on this forum has the ability to sway my decision (I'm open to all ideas.)

Can you give more details? Was it as simple as "we'll give you back everything as long as you agree to peace?" No strings attached? Was this a while ago and times have changed?

I cannot speak for right after the wars, but it is my understanding that even to this day (or up until recently) the Israelis have continued to expand and create more settlements. This, IMO, has nothing to do with the situation after the war.

I'll be the first to admit I'm ashamed with the Palestinians' actions at many points in this debacle. But again, we can't use the situations of dozens of years ago to justify modern day actions.

Sorry for being vague, I'm trying my best not to shoot at the hip and make things up just to defend what I "think might be right," but at the same time, I cannot possibly take what you say as the truth without looking into it more and seeing what others have to see. It's harder this way but I feel like I'm not a right wing or left wing drone



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 143, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 144):
The West Bank has never formally been annexed by Israel.

Are you saying that if Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza strip it would be ok to build?


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3622 posts, RR: 5
Reply 144, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 146):

No, my whole point in bringing this up is that by not being annexed, the territory is in legal terms an occupied territory, therefore such settlements go against the Geneva convention, even if Israel doesn't see it that way. Either way, Israel could never annex a territory if the overwhelming majority of the population does not want it, at least not now that the demographics haven't been altered as much as what would be needed.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):

The settllements need to go...thats the main thing. If the Palestinians can some find a way to make sure that the violence wouldnt start up after they got their state, then i think things will be fine. Both sides need to realize that either one of them is gonna pack up and leave so they need to live together!


User currently offlinekachum From Belarus, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5145 times:

In 1967 after the war, Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries. The Arab League responded with The Khartoum resolution: no piece, no recognition. One needs to look at the settlement building in that context, that is how it started.
Also, settlement building does not equal the displacement. In fact, Israel prevented the displacement. The population of the West Bank was about to flee, fully expecting to be massacred - that is what they would do if the things turned out the other way. But Moshe Dayan and company thought 'We are going to show the whole world the example how we will treat these people and we will win their hearts and minds'. So they actually took steps to prevent the population of the West Bank from fleeing to Jordan. Look how well it has worked for them so far


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 147, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
OK that is definitely a justification for something, but it hardly justifies the continuous settlement building and treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens.

Exactly right, IMO, DeltaMD90. I think myself that we are facing something that has never happened before; literally 'a war without end.'

In the case of WW2, that really did just about 'end the day it ended.' There was next to no bitterness between the two sides. Further, there were virtually no attempts at setting up any sort of 'resistance movements' - the Germans (the 'West Germans' anyway) were only too grateful that the US and Britain 'occupied' them so quickly (the alternative being Soviet Russia). Within weeks, urgently-needed food supplies were pouring in, and plans were being made for 'reconstruction' of Germany's ruined economy.

But I think we probably all feel in our hearts that when this latest one-sided 'war' peters out, Israel will make no attempt to provide emergency aid or help with 'reconstruction.' The UN will no doubt do what it can, but that won't amount to much. The Palestinians in Gaza will go on 'living' - if you can call it that - in their ruined enclave, and make the best of a bad job, putting up with a few more ruined buildings which they can't get the resources to repair. And the Israelis will go on maintaining their vice-like grip on Gaza's borders, blockading the place by land and sea, cutting Gaza off from virtually all contact with the outside world.

Thanks to zkojq (Reply 123) we can all expect, also, that the 'slow but steady' forcible annexation of Palestinian land in the rest of the area west of the Jordan will continue too. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't yet watched this video he posted to have a good look at it:-

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d95_1182673079

Until I saw that I've been more or less assuming that the gradual annexation of more and more Palestinian territory on the West Bank was being planned and carried out by the Israeli government and the Army; but that video is convincing proof that it is the ordinary Israelis - many of them, presumably, recent immigrants - who are doing the job of driving out the native population; up to and including physical attacks on Palestinians, including children - while the army looks on and makes no attempt to intervene........

As to how anyone can sort out this mess, starting from here, I must admit that I'm 'fresh out of ideas.' In any other country, the United Nations would probably 'intervene'; but that would require nothing short of deposing the current Israeli government, putting the whole place under military occupation, and spending many years implementing the necessary reforms. Only the United States has the resources necessary to do that - and I can't see Obama (or any future US president) ever authorising anything of the kind.

So it looks as if the 'immolation' of the Palestinian people will just go on and on.......... and all we'll be able to do is watch it on the TV news - and, of course, contribute to the odd thread about it............  



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 723 posts, RR: 7
Reply 148, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
In 1967 after the war, Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries.

Weasel formulation.

Israel was prepared to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria, in return for signed peace treaties. Separate negotiations would then be conducted regarding the future of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and the refugee issue.

D.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7797 posts, RR: 52
Reply 149, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5157 times:

Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
In 1967

Well this is a HUGE red flag. How can we possibly apply what the Palestinians did *45* years ago to today???



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 150, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):
Was it as simple as "we'll give you back everything as long as you agree to peace?" No strings attached? Was this a while ago and times have changed?

If only.
He makes it sound like that....
Israel refused to give back lands unconditionally



Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):
Can you give more details?

A short summation of what occurred in the 67 war

http://www.ourtimelines.com/zsixdaywar.html

And another article about Israeli settlements since the 67 war

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41526

DeltaMD90 you will note, that settlement building has expanded under every Israeli Government since the 67 war, so not good history with the Palestinians there.

[Edited 2012-11-19 18:54:50]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinekachum From Belarus, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 1
Reply 151, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

How can it possibly apply? In every possible way. The same way it applies in any other such conflict in the history. Acts have consequences. Several times Israel was attacked by conventional military force and it gained control of some territory as a result, fair and square. They should just annexed it right there and then in 1967 on the principle of "Don't f..k with me'.
But they didn't and are willing to negotiate, but 'you got to ask me nicely'