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Detroit Rising  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

About three years ago, I came to Detroit, where I was born and raised, to give a presentation on my field of expertise at a symposium for the public. During that trip in Autumn 2009, I was shocked and appalled to see the state of the city and its surrounds. It seemed as if there was an air of death and decay everywhere I looked.

At age 19, when I left, I knew that Detroit was a decrepit and dying metro area, but I had no idea how bad it would get. In 2008, when the bottom fell out of the local economy and the auto industry, the city was devastated. I had come back to visit in the aftermath of that catastrophic event to a husk of a city. People wore dark clothes. Businesses were boarded up. Restaurants and bars were empty. It was so sad to see this place that had hit rock bottom. Having said that, once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one direction to go.

I came back this time because my mom's home sold after five years on the market and it was time to empty it out. I have known from the initial planning of this trip that it may well be my last time here. I leave tomorrow morning.

The entire city seems different than three years ago. People are dressed well. Bars and restaurants are full of young people who seem to have money to spend. Heads are held high. New stores are opening in vacant stalls in strip malls. There are "Help Wanted" signs up. Houses appear maintained and the streets (at least in the suburbs) are clean. The streets are full of shiny new cars made by American manufacturers. There is even some construction.

Living where I live in SF, we barely felt the recession and so the recovery has similarly been hard to detect. But when I compare the Detroit Metro Area in 2009 vs. the Detroit Metro Area in 2012, the recovery is plain to see. Detroit is investing in technology. She is diversifying her economy, rather than putting all her eggs in one basket. Enormous houses in nice neighborhoods can be had for next to nothing and young professionals are snapping them up.

What do you think, locals? Are things looking up? What changes do you see coming? I see some slow integration of mass transit, helping to improve density and reduce small (SE Michigan rapid rail. Possible Detroit-Chicago HSR proposal.). I see various high-tech and service industries being attracted to the area by low property prices and costs of living. I'm not sure that anyone living today will see Detroit reach the heights it did in the 1950's and 1960's, but from where I'm standing, Detroit is rising.

And that makes me glad.  

86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

The brilliance of market corrections.

When prices for houses are extraordinarily low, labour costs are low and businesses move in, I can imagine a great deal of people who can telecommute would be attracted to Detroit. Econ101; after a shock the economy will return back to equilibrium. The cheap housing looks like it'll be around for a while, just having a look at trulia, it's phenomenal what you can get in Detroit for tiny sums, enormous mansions a few miles from the city for the price of a small apartment in most other big cities in the world.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

I hope you're correct about Detroit but I also hope my favorite hole-in-the-wall joints remain as well.
Detroit has lots of Greenspace, affordable housing, government funding for public schools, heavily unionized and those big evil companies are no longer spewing out carbon like they were 50 years ago.
Sounds like a utopia right?

I still like Detroit and I had a great time there will Falstaff a few years ago.
Here is my trip report about the place.


Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW)
www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/148353/


I like L.J.'s Lounge.  
...
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit2009054.jpg


Here is a nice fixer-upper in Brush Park.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit51.jpg



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

You could probably get a great "deal" on a mansion out in the jungle too, if any become vacant there; the problem is, not that many people want to live in a jungle !


On the other hand, if they ever build that crazy new suspension bridge across the Detroit River, I'll definitely have to drive up and take some pictures of it.


Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2818 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3271 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I hope the city does rebound. When it all fell apart in 2008 it was a sad time. But hopefully with GM and Ford rebounding they can get people employed again and the city booming. Though from my understanding they have to start cleaning up the streets a bit. Though if people have jobs I'm sure that would help enormously.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 days ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4):
When it all fell apart in 2008

What on earth are you talking about?
The city started falling apart after the 1967 riots.
Some areas were rotting even before then. The city's peak population was in 1950. That's 62 years ago.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 3):
Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

Dearborn has it's serious issues too. The place looks like Bagdad. Then there is Inkster which is also another craphole.

[Edited 2012-11-18 03:13:59]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 3):
Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

It's true, and I'm not sure if Flint will ever recover from being a ghost town in our lifetimes. Whatever the new Detroit is going to be, it's not going to be a massive industrial center again because the accidents of history that made it that the first time aren't set up to play out the same way again.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
And that makes me glad.  

Me, too, my brother and his family lived in Ann Arbor for awhile, great little town been there a couple of times and loved it, Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time. There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Doc, there are many positive changes happening in the area. I think the Sate and local governments have finally realized that diversification is the key to success. Home values in the area continue to climb and in my area of Northville-Novi there are virtually no houses to be had. The same can be said for the North Woodward ave corridor. The greatest changes though are seen in Downtown Detroit. New projects are being announced on a weekly basis. Dan Gilbert's vision of what Detroit can be are starting to take hold. Apartment occupancy rates are near 100%. The recently rehabbed Broderick tower opened last week to 100% occupancy. The Madison, next to the Broderick, is set to reopen in 2013 and is already near capacity. Chrysler has moved some employees to the Dime building which was renamed "Chrysler Place", in their honor. Companies continue to more downtown which is starting to fill the commercial space. The largest Buffalo wild wings in the country opens next month in the Greektown area. The Grand Prix is back on Belle Isle. The Detroit Historical museum reopened last night after a year long remodel. Yes, there are many encouraging signs of progress happening in the area,however there is a long way to go. Downtown Detroit is pretty safe, but the neighborhoods of Detroit are a whole other story. Being in my late 50's and knowing what Detroit and the area once was, I hope to see this area return to its former glory before I die. I'm posting a few links that show some of the positive things going on and some of the not so good that needs to change. Sorry to hear you may never return so a couple of the links will help you keep informed if you so desire.


The Broderick Click the veiws section and then North South East or West
http://www.brodericktower.com/

Some of the good and bad
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Detroi...com/109210839112636?ref=ts&fref=ts

Alot of the good and bad
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/atdasd_headlines.php

Sorry Fly but your fixer-upper in Brush Park was torn down last week but this one made it
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Some history on the buildings of Detroit
http://www.historicdetroit.org/buildings/


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
my brother and his family lived in Ann Arbor for awhile, great little town been there a couple of times


I visited there. Nice town but is only a college town.

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
loved it, Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time.


My thoughts exactly.

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.



I hope the railway building stays put and is refurbished. That is a gorgeous building.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Sorry Fly but your fixer-upper in Brush Park was torn down last week but this one made it


Wow, sorry to hear about that. Those homes are over 100 years old.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Being in my late 50's and knowing what Detroit and the area once was,


Would like to hear some of your stories.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Northville-Novi


How is the Wixom area now?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
How is the Wixom area now?



You would be hard pressed to find a decent house from Novi-Northville all the way out to Brighton. The housing stock is pretty thin right now in these areas,the foreclosure stock is gone.Ford Wixom plant started coming down a month ago. North Woodward real estate from Royal Oak to Bloomfield Hills is also on fire. And who would have ever thought, but to get something in Downtown Detroit means going on a waiting list. Hundreds of Engineering jobs are just begging to be filled. Chrysler just announced 1250 new assembly jobs spread over three plants starting immediately. Then there's companies like this helping to revitalize Detroit http://semichiganstartup.com/companies/detroitventurepartners.aspx Next up for Dan Gilbert,Roger Penske and a few others is this http://www.m-1rail.com/about/. As I said before, theres a lot of great things starting to happen, but we still have a long way to go


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 735 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

I gave a presentation at GM in 2008 and stayed at the tall Marriott in their complex. The drive from the airport was an eye-opener, but when me and my boss asked the hotel staff for a place we could walk to for drinks and dinner, they said "no way" and assigned us a junior bellboy to escort us in his car, and I think we ended up over by the casino (?)


Every country has its problems, and bigger countries have bigger problems. I find it hard to believe that the majority of Americans would choose to fix other countries (with aid or war) if the majority of Americans could see Detroit first hand.

Also, much like a self-deceptive person is never effective, I don't think America can be effective overseas while it is dishonest with itself (or deliberately ignorant) about the state of affairs on the home front: it just doesn't work. Places that have been VERY down but later recover can be interesting, so good luck to Detroit!




Pu


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

I went back to the house for the last time this morning. The "SOLD" sign is now up. I stood in my room and soaked in the view over the lake where the geese and swans chase each-other. I looked into my bathroom mirror where I watched myself grow from age 3 to 19 and I saw a man looking back at me. I'm proud of him and who he became.

I paced every empty room in that house and took the memories, but not photos. The nostalgia came, but perhaps not as strongly as I expected. Perhaps it's because, even as a kid, I never quite felt at home in Detroit. I then walked out the front door (I usually would have used the side) and closed it behind me. My last tie to Southeastern Michigan was cut.

On Friday, we got confirmation from the agents and lenders: we are officially home-owners on a new house in Oakland. We move in six days (he says calmly). My family, my friends, and my career are all in the Bay Area. My present and future are here. This is my home now. I've never felt more at home in any other place.

About two hours later, N3751B, a DL 738 climbed off DTW's 22R and turned right. As the aircraft climbed into the west, I found myself moving in my own direction: forward.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
On Friday, we got confirmation from the agents and lenders: we are officially home-owners on a new house in Oakland.

You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.

Been to Oakland lately?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Been to Oakland lately?

Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.   



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.

It's a good place to invest. It, like Detroit, is rising.

Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
It's a good place to invest. It, like Detroit, is rising.

Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.

While parts of Oakland are loathsome, other parts are fantastic.

I enjoyed your reflections on your childhood home. Congratulations on the new house and the positive outook!

My parents still live in my childhood home in a town which has changed for the worse since I left. I find it hard to go back.


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1629 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

I live in Ann Arbor but over the last year or so I have been heading into Detroit a lot more than in the past. Back in September I drove around through the burned out and abandoned neighborhoods, around Belle Isle, hit downtown, sat in front of the train station and found myself at the corner of Michigan and Trumbull but it wasn't like the last time I was there, only the flagpole and infield remain. I took a lot of pictures. A lot of what I saw was humbling to me, it is amazing to see what has become of what was such a majestic city. There is a buzz though, something is different about it. There is a mysterious draw to it for me and I will continue to go down there to find things to do. Of course the waffle fries with Hoffman's cheddar and smoked chicken wings at Slows BBQ might be part of my urge to go down there...

I fly all over the continent and see a lot of cities in the process but it's always nice coming home to the Motor City. Detroit has a long way to go but I think it's at least bottomed out and is slowly heading in the right direction.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Ford Wixom plant started coming down a month ago.

Oh no! Why?
Most of my favorite cars were made there. I thought Ford was going to use that facility as their new 'Green-tec' research facility.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Bloomfield Hills is also on fire.

I like that area.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Hundreds of Engineering jobs are just begging to be filled. Chrysler just announced 1250 new assembly jobs spread over three plants starting immediately.

That's great news!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.

  

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.

     

DocLightning is hard! Don't mess with him because he is from Detroit.   
Parts of Oakland is coming up.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
I thought Ford was going to use that facility as their new 'Green-tec' research facility.

They might just mean letting weeds grow over everything.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Parts of Oakland is coming up.

The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dRWgVo0FHE



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

"Gentrification."


User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
North Woodward real estate from Royal Oak to Bloomfield Hills is also on fire

I was grew up in Royal Oak and still own a home there. The best thing to happen to Royal Oak (other than me living there of course    ) was when I-696 between I-75 and Telegraph was finally completed. Royal Oak took off after that and the property values skyrocketed. There are now lofts in the downtown area that go for $250K. Not bad for a city that, at one time was the "Mayberry" of SE Michigan.

I am proud to say I patrolled the streets of Detroit for many years of my LE career prior to moving to Southern CA (just got tired of the shitty MI weather, aside from Fall of course). Coleman Young was good and bad for the city but what Kwame did is unforgivable (not to mention criminal). And now the PD is having a hard time finding a Chief and command officers who can keep their johnson's in their drawers. Thanks to them, the taxpayers will, once again have to get out their checkbooks once all the sexual harassment suits are settled. They're rumors that Councilman Gary Brown may be the next Chief. A little background on Gary; he is one of the first Kwamme whistle blowers and was promptly fired for it. That turned out to be costly for the city as he netted over $8 million in a whistle blower lawsuit. If that happens, and Gary does get the nod for chief, it'll be bitter-sweet. He's one of, if not the only council member who has a lick of sense.

I go back and visit a few times a year and always make a point to hit Greek Town (actually, it's Greek Street) and depending on the time of year I take in either a Tigers or a Wings game (how 'bout those Tigers this year, eh Doc?). And a visit to Greenfield Village in neighboring Dearborn is always a must. Time permitting, I hook up with a buddy or two who are still with DPD and ride a tour with them. Some things haven't changed but, as Doc has correctly pointed out, the City is definitely on a road to recovery. It was too bad Detroit 187 didn't survive but, truth be told, the show's title alone didn't do much for the city's reputation. Speaking of "187", I had the opportunity to meet Michael Imperioli during one of my trips back and he is genuinely a nice guy. When he learned I was a former Detroit cop, he insisted on taking me to dinner at a restaurant of my choice. That was an easy decision to make and we had a nice dinner and some excellent conversation at Mario's at 2nd and Willis. Growing up with a first generation Italian for a dad, Mario's was the only Italian restaurant he said that came anywhere close to the meals his dad would make in the old country.

Now, if only the NHL and the Player's Association will pull their heads out of their greedy asses so I can take in a game at The Joe when I go back in March!


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

"Gentrification."

Today in Oakland, you can buy an arugula at a Whole Foods -yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
"Gentrification."

Sometimes it don't work so hot.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 22):
Not bad for a city that, at one time was the "Mayberry" of SE Michigan.

Is that "Mayberry" as in being a nice, quiet place to live with a small town feel? Or is that "Mayberry" as in not having any black people?

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 22):
It was too bad Detroit 187 didn't survive but, truth be told, the show's title alone didn't do much for the city's reputation.

Isn't "187" only murder in California? It's like showing Rescue 911 in countries where 911 isn't the emergency number or Canadians "taking the fifth," despite their fifth amendment being something about building a bridge.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Is that "Mayberry" as in being a nice, quiet place to live with a small town feel? Or is that "Mayberry" as in not having any black people?

Not sure how to take this question but my answer is, a nice quiet place to live with a small town feel.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Isn't "187" only murder in California? It's like showing Rescue 911 in countries where 911 isn't the emergency number or Canadians "taking the fifth," despite their fifth amendment being something about building a bridge.

Technically speaking, 187 might only be the P.C. for murder in California (sorry, I'm not up on the penal codes of all 50 states) but I think I am correct in assuming that when someone hears or sees "187" in the title of a cop show, they associate it with murder.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Sometimes it don't work so hot.

And in a place like Oakland, it works beautifully. Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 25):
Technically speaking, 187 might only be the P.C. for murder in California (sorry, I'm not up on the penal codes of all 50 states)

Upon further review, it appears that murder is something else in Michigan. Whatever 187 actually is probably isn't more interesting than homicide.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And in a place like Oakland, it works beautifully. Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.

St. Louis has been trying it for a while and it seems to not work. The suburbs are just too pleasant.

At least in Oakland Bubb Rubb will save you the trouble of getting an alarm clock. Oakland is probably doomed to being the Gary of the Bay Area.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.

Higher prices of homes do not raise income levels. It just attracts wealthier people that already have money.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
St. Louis has been trying it for a while and it seems to not work. The suburbs are just too pleasant.

OK. I'm getting tired of it. You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert. Seriously, know when not to post, dude. How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

Unlike St. Louis, Oakland is right next San Francisco and is in the Bay Area, which includes Silicon Valley, Stanford, and Berkeley. The tech industry is booming right now, which means that there will be a lot of young professionals entering the housing market. As this occurs, much as in Detroit right now, the lower-income, more run-down areas tend to get bought out by development firms that spruce up, or "flip" the houses and rehabilitate entire neighborhoods. They can sell these houses at ~300% of the purchase price. Right now the real estate market in Oakland is such that you can expect to bid at least 10% over the asking price on a given house. In other words, it's a seller's market.

Gentrification is the name of the game in the SF Bay Area. Areas that used to be very run-down and dangerous, such as the Mission District and East Palo Alto are now seeing rapid rises in property values and massive demographic shifts away from low-income minority residents to young professionals. Gentrification only works in periods of local economic expansion. St. Louis is primarily built around agriculture, which is a relatively stable industry in the long term (mouths need to be fed; there isn't a huge amount of long-term growth in agriculture, but there is long-term stability). Because of this, St. Louis has a very poor chance of being able to gentrify anything.

The flipside of gentrification is that while it is locally a boon, it causes problems because lower-income working poor tend to get pushed to the outskirts and this makes it more difficult for them to commute to their jobs.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
Higher prices of homes do not raise income levels. It just attracts wealthier people that already have money.

That's what I mean. It raises the median income level by replacing low-income people with high-income people.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert.

I've been there, several years ago. Never felt the need to go back. The areas north and south of San Francisco are much nicer. I actually rather like San Franciso, despite the hippies and/or homeless. The hippies that retired and got jobs make it a nice place to be. But, considering the costs and taxes, I'd put it in the same category as a lot of Europe in that it's a place I like to visit but would probably hate to live in.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

And miss the chance to take a cheap shot at Oakland? Not a chance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Because of this, St. Louis has a very poor chance of being able to gentrify anything.

Nobody told the people who are continually trying to do it. Of course it looks damn good if you're coming from East St. Louis.   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
The flipside of gentrification is that while it is locally a boon, it causes problems because lower-income working poor tend to get pushed to the outskirts and this makes it more difficult for them to commute to their jobs.

That tends to cause less of a problem than things like mixed income housing or rent controls. And there's the underlying idea of mixed income housing that poor people should probably find offensive. At least, I don't think I'd need wealthier people to be role models.

Either way I'd never want to live in a refurbished factory in freshly rehabilitated ghetto. It's much nicer where there are Walmarts, freeways, and space for everyone's Hummer.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time. There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.

Yeah that's always been why Detroit's story troubles me so. I've never been there (outside of the DTW terminal anyway) but I've always heard about its awesome Art Deco archimatecture and have liked a lot of the photos I've seen, especially of the Guardian Building.

I also kinda want to see the Dossin Great Lakes Museum out on Belle Isle.

At the same time, Detroit's modern reputation being what it is, even I, a die-hard travel fan, can't see myself taking a leisure trip to ...ummm... Detroit.   

Maybe I'll end up driving through on the way to Hamilton, Ontario or someplace...



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
They can sell these houses at ~300%

I have a friend who lives in Oakland, near a lake. She's bought and sold a few homes in this area and has done vary well for herself. From her house you can take the metro into san fran city centre and if i remember it only takes about 20-30 min.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
OK. I'm getting tired of it. You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert. Seriously, know when not to post, dude. How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

AMEN.         

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):

Either way I'd never want to live in a refurbished factory in freshly rehabilitated ghetto. It's much nicer where there are Walmarts, freeways, and space for everyone's Hummer.

Great. Enjoy Modesto.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

At least in Oakland Bubb Rubb will save you the trouble of getting an alarm clock. Oakland is probably doomed to being the Gary of the Bay Area.

That's such a ridiculous comparison it hardly merits discussion. Oakland is a big city. It has 400,000 people and a large city limits extending from way up to Berkeley and down to the airport. It's own airport, and sports teams, etc etc. It's big and diverse. It's like Los Angeles in that regard, it contains all types. Some parts are crap, some parts are decent/up and coming with nice old bungalows, and some parts are rich and beautiful and always have been. And i'd bet you'd give your left nut to live in some neighborhoods like Montclair and you'd still have an Oakland address. You're trying to base all these comments on handy caricature in your mind but its become very obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Congrats on the new digs, Doc.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

Sorry BMI727 but I have to disagree with you on this one.
DocLightning is correct on this one. Oakland has some magnificent areas and believe it or not, the neighborhood I grew up in Gary, Indiana (Miller Beach) has homes going for more than $300,000.
Oakland is not at all the craphole you're making it out to be. There are parts that are crap and their downtown is a joke but areas such as Oakland Hills, Rockridge and Montclair are beautiful with many well maintained old homes, lots of trees with great views of the Bay Area.
Now if you're just hanging out on the hoe-stroll near the Edgewater motel then yes, the place is a dump.

The Gary of the Bay Area would be Richmond, California (not to be confused with the district in San Francisco)

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
Great. Enjoy Modesto.

Cheap shot.
There are some charming suburbs that have character and plenty of space to park a Hummer or even better, a 1960s Cadillac convertible.  
I like Walnut Creek. They have vast neighborhoods with Brady Bunch styled Eichler homes, plenty of space, hiking, bicycle trails, Mount Diablo and BART access.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
That's what I mean. It raises the median income level by replacing low-income people with high-income people.

You sound like a Republican.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

You sound like a Republican.

They complain about it in DC, too. When disadvantaged, ghetto neighborhoods are surrounded by enormous wealth, the basic pressure of the money & short commute time eventually squeeze out the residents of the ghetto. Typically there is fabulous housing stock just waiting to be rehabbed. Former residents leave for suburbs. Due to the gentrified property taxes, if nothing else.

I don't know if this happens in Detroit, or ever will. If the car industry keeps kicking ass, Detroit might do well. It is a stylish challenge for today's landscape architects and urban planners.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
Great. Enjoy Modesto.

I've never been there, but I don't see any problems with Modesto.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
And i'd bet you'd give your left nut to live in some neighborhoods like Montclair and you'd still have an Oakland address.

Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
There are parts that are crap and their downtown is a joke but areas such as Oakland Hills, Rockridge and Montclair are beautiful with many well maintained old homes, lots of trees with great views of the Bay Area.

To be fair, most cities have that. The difference between cities is in the proportions.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
You sound like a Republican.

Perhaps not as Republican as those who favor mixed income housing so that rich people can set an example for others. That comes off as demeaning to me.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Today in Oakland, you can buy an arugula at a Whole Foods -yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.

Not to mention what you can buy in Oaksterdam...   



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13699 posts, RR: 61
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3367 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.

San Jose?   



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

I do find it interesting that DocLightning is moving to the neighborhood were the original Black Panthers started in the 1960s. Would be cool to see Doc raise his fist and grow out a huge Afro!   
I suspect Doc will be inviting Angela Davis over for the house-warming party.
Power to the people!  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.


Sausalito I can understand but Fremont?   
The only thing I like going to there is the Pick & Pull wrecking yard.
Other than that, it's just a boring community with an abandoned Solyndra plant.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
They complain about it in DC, too. When disadvantaged, ghetto neighborhoods are surrounded by enormous wealth, the basic pressure of the money & short commute time eventually squeeze out the residents of the ghetto. Typically there is fabulous housing stock just waiting to be rehabbed. Former residents leave for suburbs. Due to the gentrified property taxes, if nothing else.


I totally understand. I just find it amusing that cities that like to 'think' of themselves as liberal & tolerant suddenly become greedy capitalist when it comes to their own property.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Not to mention what you can buy in Oaksterdam...


  
LOL!
Awesome!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
To be fair, most cities have that. The difference between cities is in the proportions.


Modesto and Fremont doesn't.
There are vast areas of Oakland that are very nice - mostly up in the hills.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1970 posts, RR: 32
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.

LOL. Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb. What draws you there? Taco Bell franchises?

[Edited 2012-11-19 20:30:02]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb. What draws you there?

It struck me as a nice suburban place with space and people who mostly have some money. Maybe I only saw the nice parts.

It could be that I only saw the nice parts, but I like strip malls and as long as there's one Chipotle then the Mexican fast food is cool with me. (I could survive with Qdoba even though it isn't as good)



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
LOL. Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb.


I wouldn't call Fremont "run-down" either. It's just a bland suburb.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
It struck me as a nice suburban place with space and people who mostly have some money. Maybe I only saw the nice parts.



Sure you were in Fremont? Next time you're in the Bay Area, visit the Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill area as well as San Ramon & Pleasanton. It's suburbia but with character and friendly people.
Cities on the Peninsula such as Palo Alto didn't make my list because it feels very pompous and stuck up. Perhaps having Stanford and all of those tec-geeks is the reason.  


As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in. They can have a negative impact on existing statewide gun, alcohol and car registration laws. I would hate to see the great state of Michigan go the way of California.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in. They can have a negative impact on existing statewide gun, alcohol and car registration laws. I would hate to see the great state of Michigan go the way of California.

CA is the worlds 5th largest economy. I imagine MI would be OK with that status, instead of its current decaying rust belt status.

Geeky or not, tech is one area that our country excels at. Manufacturing can almost all be done cheaper elsewhere, natural resources is a finite self-limiting game, healthcare is a zero sum game, etc. Tech is one area where wealth is routinely being created.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
CA is the worlds 5th largest economy.



Not anymore. California slipped to the 10th largest economy in the world.
http://sdrostra.com/?p=13567

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
Geeky or not, tech is one area that our country excels at. Manufacturing can almost all be done cheaper elsewhere, natural resources is a finite self-limiting game, healthcare is a zero sum game, etc. Tech is one area where wealth is routinely being created.



Not discounting the merits of the tech industry. What I should have said is that I don't want Michigan to turn in to a nanny-state like so many other 'blue' states. The state of Nevada used to be a libertarian leaning, wild-west state but has turned in to regulated, bureaucratic nanny-state thanks to all the Californians that's moved there within the last 20 years.
Michigan still has lots of outdoors-men, hunters, gun owners and the highest number of registered boat owners. Many of the urban hipsters in the tec-industry may not understand this culture and may want to change the entire state to suit their ideals.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

I've sometimes worked in Oakland since the mid 80's. Plenty after the fire. I also had friends who moved to Oakland from San Jose thinking all those beautiful old houses would be gentrified. They scurried back to San Jose the first time one of them got mugged.

Oakland is hole and it always will be. Even Jerry Brown, the great liberal savior could do little for Oakland. I know plenty like to point to the hills as a redeeming grace and almost justifiably so - until the flatlands violence spills over and crosses Hwy 13. And speaking of old Oakland/Berkely money, have you seen those rich folks? They look totally inbred and in dire need of sunshine. I guess thats what happens when you don't dare cross the boundaries of your neighborhood.
Oakland will always be the region's Newark.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
What I should have said is that I don't want Michigan to turn in to a nanny-state like so many other 'blue' states.

You may or may not get your wish with MI because one of its native sons showed the country what naked capitalism looks like, and even with a soft economy and a promise to extend tax cuts he lost.

However, there are plenty of solid red states out there to choose from, to a large degree due to one thing the GOP is quite good at, which is gerrymandering.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Michigan still has lots of outdoors-men, hunters, gun owners and the highest number of registered boat owners.

Head off to Texas. The place is still run by older white right wingers so you'll be fine.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

At least they are tearing down some of those old burned out and decrepit abandoned homes near downtown. That's a good thing.

I think Detroit is a good example of what happens when you have massive corruption in city government.

If they make the state an "employment at will" state maybe more companies would consider Michigan again.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
And speaking of old Oakland/Berkely money, have you seen those rich folks? They look totally inbred and in dire need of sunshine.


Agreed!
Probably because of that Mormon Temple up there in the hill.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
You may or may not get your wish with MI because one of its native sons showed the country what naked capitalism looks like, and even with a soft economy and a promise to extend tax cuts he lost.


He doesn't represent the Michigan I was talking about.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Head off to Texas.



I've done even better - Thailand.
Texas without the Holy-rollers.  
Quoting type-rated (Reply 47):
I think Detroit is a good example of what happens when you have massive corruption in city government.



To be fair, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles are corrupt as well.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1390 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

Gentrification is the name of the game in the SF Bay Area. Areas that used to be very run-down and dangerous, such as the Mission District and East Palo Alto are now seeing rapid rises in property values and massive demographic shifts away from low-income minority residents to young professionals.

Torrance & San Pedro have done much the same down here. Though in Torrance' case, that might have a lot to do with putting Rolling Hills within city limits now.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
But, considering the costs and taxes, I'd put it in the same category as a lot of Europe in that it's a place I like to visit but would probably hate to live in.

Why would you hate to live somewhere just because of taxes? You could always get a job or something.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):

Nobody told the people who are continually trying to do it. Of course it looks damn good if you're coming from East St. Louis.

So does West Hell.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
I like Walnut Creek. They have vast neighborhoods with Brady Bunch styled Eichler homes, plenty of space, hiking, bicycle trails, Mount Diablo and BART access.

I've always really loved that 70s contempo look for housing. The neighborhood I grew up in over in Rockville was like that. Our house had a real natural feel to it that's really hard to dupe any other way.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
-yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.

Flughh... Four cans of 211 should be the legal lifetime limit. That stuff is awful.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):

As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in

Actually, that would be kind of cool too. I spend a lot of time writing about futuristic dystopic landscapes. Detroit (or Deet-Row-It if you're Gordon Lightfoot) was until recently a favorite well of mine. I've been out there almost every summer of my childhood, and a bunch of times over the last few years (a lot of family in St. Claire Shores area). The transformation has been fascinating from an observational standpoint.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Head off to Texas. The place is still run by older white right wingers so you'll be fine.

For now. TX will go blue, I'll wager good money I mean, by the 2020 Election Cycle.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
They have vast neighborhoods with Brady Bunch styled Eichler homes,

Interesting. I've kind of described my home to others as "Brady Bunch styled". It's got lots of angles, a main room with lots of open space, a funky-cut cathedral window, and a big staircase with a large natural wood railing.

Mine doesn't get as fancy as:



but has many of these characterstics:

Quote:

Eichler homes are from a branch of Modernist architecture that has come to be known as "California Modern," and typically feature glass walls, post-and-beam construction, and open floorplans in a style indebted to Frank Lloyd Wright and Mies van der Rohe. Eichler Homes exteriors featured flat and/or low-sloping A-Framed roofs, vertical 2-inch pattern wood siding, and spartan facades with clean geometric lines. One of Eichler's signature concepts was to "Bring the Outside In," achieved via skylights and floor-to-ceiling glass windows with glass transoms looking out on protected and private outdoor rooms, patios, atriums, gardens, and swimming pools. Also of note is that most Eichler homes feature few, if any, front-facing (that is, street-facing) windows, with those that do exist being either small ceiling level windows or small rectangular windows with frosted glass which is contrary to most other architectural designs which have almost all front rooms featuring large windows.

The interiors had numerous unorthodox and innovative features including: exposed post-and-beam construction; tongue and groove decking for the ceilings following the roofline; concrete slab floors with integral radiant heating; lauan ( Philippine mahogany ) paneling; sliding doors for rooms, closets, and cabinets; and a standard second bathroom located in the master bedroom. Later models introduced the famous Eichler entry atriums, an open-air enclosed entrance foyer designed to further advance the Eichler concept of integrating outdoor and indoor spaces.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Eichler

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
I've done even better - Thailand.
Texas without the Holy-rollers.

  

A trip to Thailand is on my bucket list.

Hope to find a good excuse to go there in the next year or two.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
To be fair, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles are corrupt as well.

But that doesn't make it right. Under the original Dailey administration in Chicago it was known as "Chicago, the city that works".

And none of the cities you mentioned have fallen apart to the level that Detroit has.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 51):
And none of the cities you mentioned have fallen apart to the level that Detroit has.

That's because none of those cities relied on manufacturing as heavily as Detroit. They also didn't have Coleman Young basically telling whites to " Hit Eight Mile"


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
That's because none of those cities relied on manufacturing as heavily as Detroit. They also didn't have Coleman Young basically telling whites to " Hit Eight Mile"

Yes. Detroit learned a very, very bitter lesson about putting all your eggs in one basket. Had they harbored multiple industries, like Chicago, this wouldn't have happened.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 51):
And none of the cities you mentioned have fallen apart to the level that Detroit has.

I guess you weren't around in the 1970s when NYC was within one day of being bankrupt:

Quote:

The city neared bankruptcy during the administration of Mayor Abraham Beame but avoided that fate with the aid of a large federal loan. A statement by Mayor Beame was drafted and ready to be released on October 17, 1975, if the teachers' union did not invest $150 million from its pension funds in city securities. "I have been advised by the comptroller that the City of New York has insufficient cash on hand to meet debt obligations due today," the statement said. "This constitutes the default that we have struggled to avoid."[8] The Beame statement was never distributed because Albert Shanker, the teachers' union president, finally furnished $150 million from the union's pension fund to buy Municipal Assistance Corporation bonds. Two weeks later, President Gerald R. Ford angered many New Yorkers by refusing to grant the city a bailout, a decision famously summarized by the New York Daily News headline "Ford to City: Drop Dead."

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...City_%281946%E2%80%931977%29#1970s

NYC back then was arguably as much a sh*thole as Detroit is now.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 49):
I've always really loved that 70s contempo look for housing. The neighborhood I grew up in over in Rockville was like that. Our house had a real natural feel to it that's really hard to dupe any other way.

If I move back to the States, I'd buy a home of that vintage.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 49):
Flughh... Four cans of 211 should be the legal lifetime limit. That stuff is awful.

Haha! I'm guilty of enjoying those beers in the past.  
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 49):
I've been out there almost every summer of my childhood, and a bunch of times over the last few years (a lot of family in St. Claire Shores area).

Nice area. I drove through there on my visit in 2009.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 49):
The transformation has been fascinating from an observational standpoint.

Agreed. I feel the same way about my hometown of Gary, Indiana.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 50):
Interesting. I've kind of described my home to others as "Brady Bunch styled". It's got lots of angles, a main room with lots of open space, a funky-cut cathedral window, and a big staircase with a large natural wood railing.

Nice!  
When are you going to host a retro party?
I can bring the Cold Duck.   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 50):
A trip to Thailand is on my bucket list.

Hope to find a good excuse to go there in the next year or two.

Come on out. You don't need an excuse.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 51):
But that doesn't make it right. Under the original Dailey administration in Chicago it was known as "Chicago, the city that works".

I don't mind some level of corruption as long as the trains & buses run on time, trash is picked up and parking fees are low or non-existant.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):
NYC back then was arguably as much a sh*thole as Detroit is now.

New York looked cool in the movies from that era. Back then, the city had grit.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 5
Reply 56, posted (2 years 21 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I'm not sure that anyone living today will see Detroit reach the heights it did in the 1950's and 1960's, but from where I'm standing, Detroit is rising.

I'm so pleased that you found Detroit to be improving. In an ideal world, it would replicate its near neighbour Toronto, with all the success and aspiration that enjoys.

Detroit is very similar to many large industrial UK cities, which is why it interests me. Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, Birmingham and to a certain extent London and New York all went down at the same post industrial time, although obviously Detroit went further than most, and it's heartening to think it might one day achieve some of its former glory.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 57, posted (2 years 20 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 55):
New York looked cool in the movies from that era. Back then, the city had grit.

Yeah, I get it. There definitely was a gritty aspect to NYC back then, one that still isn't too far under the covers today.

Major issue was crime, which was out of control in those days.

I suppose the crime issue made going to NYC more of a thrill, but one that drove many away.

I had a relative come back home from a Yankees game with half his pants: a mugger wanted his wallet so bad that he yanked on his back pocket, and ended up ripping off his left pant leg.

(Brits: substitute "trouser" for "pants" in the above...)



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 58, posted (2 years 18 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 55):
I don't mind some level of corruption as long as the trains & buses run on time, trash is picked up and parking fees are low or non-existant.

I think that's just what everyone wants.

I remember in Chicago in the 60's with the original Mayor Dailey your alderman would come around and visit your house and say something like "Hey, you look like you need a new garbage can. Vote for Dailey" and the next day you'd look in your alley and sure enough there may be two new garbage cans there. Corrupt as all hell, but it worked very well for Chicago.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 59, posted (2 years 18 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 57):
There definitely was a gritty aspect to NYC back then, one that still isn't too far under the covers today.


True. You still get that in parts of Brooklyn. I liked the Caribbean flavor of the Flatbush section. Plenty of hole-in-the-wall eating joints open till 4:00AM but my favorite were the illegal taxis.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 57):
I suppose the crime issue made going to NYC more of a thrill, but one that drove many away.


Understood. It wasn't always glamorous like in the movies.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 57):
I had a relative come back home from a Yankees game with half his pants: a mugger wanted his wallet so bad that he yanked on his back pocket, and ended up ripping off his left pant leg.



That is scary and hilarious at the same time. I've had relatives similarly attacked on the south-side of Chicago.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 60, posted (2 years 17 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 58):
I think that's just what everyone wants.

Indeed. In my home town the mayor was corrupt as heck, and was known to receive cash in brown envelopes from any contractor wanting business from the town, and no one cared because he wasn't skimming too much, and the town government functioned quite well.

The man got caught out in a sting operation, and after he did his jail time, he got re-elected.

Echos of Marion Barry, but as I said, in our case the town was run well.

[quote=Superfly,reply=59]Understood. It wasn't always glamorous like in the movies. [/quote

Indeed. Sorry your relatives got mugged.

A lot of the crime was related to the cocaine fad of the time. That too looked cool on 'Saturday Night Fever' till you found out your best friend was robbing homes to keep his coke binges going. Heroin was even worse. I understand all of that stuff is still going on (one relative was a big user but thankfully has been clean 2 years now) but it is not as "out there" as it was in the 70s.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1390 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 55):
Haha! I'm guilty of enjoying those beers in the past.  

They certainly get the job done. But that taste... man alive. This broad I like to hangout with lately says that the can should say "From zero to dead-cat-eating Hobo in 30 seconds. Or no money back!"

Quoting Superfly (Reply 55):

If I move back to the States, I'd buy a home of that vintage.

Yeah. Good luck though. I recently tried to purchase the house I grew up in, but it was so extensively remodeled and by now overpriced as to just not be worth it. I looked around and it turns out that that has happened to much of the neighborhood as well.

There's some places out here in this corner of the country I'm looking at, but again, they seem to want a ton of cash and they're mostly remodeled to the point of pointlessness. Don't they know that you can still get fully modern & gimickized appliances in Avocado too? Not quite fashionable again, but we can make it so, lol.

Sometimes I think it would be better to just find the one (and likely only) crap-house in this neighborhood (I live in RPV, CA now), bulldoze it, and make a "new" one. But even for that one, I'd have to steal a lot more airplanes to make that happen. So, back to square one.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 59):

True. You still get that in parts of Brooklyn. I liked the Caribbean flavor of the Flatbush section. Plenty of hole-in-the-wall eating joints open till 4:00AM but my favorite were the illegal taxis.

Man, illegal taxis. My cousin, someone she swears is famous and I all had the ride of our lives about a year ago in one of those, though it was more of a Queens thing than Bkln.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):

The man got caught out in a sting operation, and after he did his jail time, he got re-elected.

Echos of Marion Barry, but as I said, in our case the town was run well.

I remember this well. In DC at the time, we referred to that term as his "Victory Lap."



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 62, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2996 times:

Seems their football team found several creative ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory today...


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 63, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2942 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):
A lot of the crime was related to the cocaine fad of the time. That too looked cool on 'Saturday Night Fever' till you found out your best friend was robbing homes to keep his coke binges going.


The cocaine scenes were not my favorite parts of that movie. I thought it was funny how they all took turns having sex in the back seat of their Chevrolet Impala. The White Castle's scene makes me hungry every time.
Plenty of those in Detroit and that was the first place I ate when I visited in 2009.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 61):
They certainly get the job done.


I like to call it a very 'efficient' beer.  
At only a $1.99, you get 40oz of 8.1% alcohol beer that really packs a punch.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 61):
Yeah. Good luck though. I recently tried to purchase the house I grew up in, but it was so extensively remodeled and by now overpriced as to just not be worth it. I looked around and it turns out that that has happened to much of the neighborhood as well.




There is always that 1 house on the street with a really old person that rarely comes outside that lives in one that hasn't been remodelled.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 61):
Don't they know that you can still get fully modern & gimickized appliances in Avocado too?


Many are sold in vintage stores in hipster parts of town.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 61):
(I live in RPV, CA now),



Nice!
I've gone airborne driving on Palos Verdes Drive at that dip in the road at Portuguese Bend.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 61):
Man, illegal taxis. My cousin, someone she swears is famous and I all had the ride of our lives about a year ago in one of those, though it was more of a Queens thing than Bkln.



I rode in the ones that go up & down Utica ave. They came in handy when you didn't want to stand around waiting for a bus. I don't remember the drivers being reckless or anything. It was just a bunch of random people piling in to a car (usually a Crown Victoria or Grand Marquis). The part of Brooklyn my friends stays in isn't near any subway line.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1390 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63):

Nice!
I've gone airborne driving on Palos Verdes Drive at that dip in the road at Portuguese Bend.

Yeah, right by that sign that says "Shifting Ground, next .8mi", right? I'm usually going the other way there, with Catalina out the PAX side window. Man, I thought I was going to wipe out the 1st time I drove down that thing. It's only about a 20ft drop (I think), but man, is that steep.

Anyway, yeah, I'm rapidly becoming infatuated with the whole area. It doesn't have quite the scene that Pasadena did, but I have to admit that that broad I spend time with a lot is right when she calls it a "Poor Man's Malibu." We have a decent amount of retro stuff around, but so far, I've been driving a lot to see the shows I like (Like freakin' all the way out to Pomona to see Birthday Massacre last week).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63):

I like to call it a very 'efficient' beer.  
At only a $1.99, you get 40oz of 8.1% alcohol beer that really packs a punch.

If by punch, you mean "kick to the face from a startled meth-addicted donkey", then yeah, that's about right. Unfortunately, that also applies to the aftertaste. If it makes you feel any better, the aforementioned broad thinks I'm a total wuss b/c I don't drink things that were brewed in a septic tank, 
Quoting Superfly (Reply 63):
They came in handy when you didn't want to stand around waiting for a bus. I don't remember the drivers being reckless or anything. It was just a bunch of random people piling in to a car (usually a Crown Victoria or Grand Marquis). The part of Brooklyn my friends stays in isn't near any subway line.

Do they ever. You just want to be careful not to get pulled over when riding in one. We knew that was going to be a long night when the guy says "Shit. Warrants. Ass!", right as we got lit up from behind. I think we saw near every street in Bkln & Queens over the next 40 mins.

When I was a good deal younger, I used to Slug rides to work a lot that way. Where I grew up near DC, we had a thing kind of like that, but we usually only had to flip the driver a few bucks for gas and be ok with getting out "near" our final destination.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 65, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
Seems their football team found several creative ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory today...

And Suh was up to his old tricks. Gave new definition to "sacking" the quarterback. The guy has no business in professional sports. After yesterday's kick, if the league has any "balls", it'll severely fine and suspend both Suh and Schwartz. It's apparent the coach condones that style of play.

The best part of the game was Kid Rock performing his new song, "Detroit Michigan".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewqP5JL2icw


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 65):
And Suh was up to his old tricks. Gave new definition to "sacking" the quarterback

Be fair here now. The ref's officiating Detroit football games don't call a player as being down when his knee touches. He's only down when his knee touches and then you kick him in the balls.

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:16:41]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 67, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 64):
Yeah, right by that sign that says "Shifting Ground, next .8mi", right? I'm usually going the other way there, with Catalina out the PAX side window.


  
That was it!
I was driving in the same direction as you. It caught me by surprise but it was fun.
So of course I made a U-turn and went back to do it all over again. 
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 64):
It doesn't have quite the scene that Pasadena did



I don't like Pasadena anymore. I enjoyed living my teen-aged years there (I graduated from Pasadena HIgh School in 1991). Today when I go back, the city has seem to shift in two polar opposite directions. You have new wealthy yuppies along with the old money that has always been there but the rough 'ghetto' areas seem to be expanding and becoming more hostile. There was still a middle-class when I lived there (1984-1991).

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 64):
"Poor Man's Malibu."


There is nothing "poor" about Palos Verdes. That is a very expensive area and I like more than Malibu.
Palos Verdes seems a lot more livable and you don't have the constant mudslide issues of Malibu.
Malibu is too dependant on 1 road - Pacific Coast Highway which is heavily travelled. Worst of all, in Malibu you have all of those gawd damn Hollywood types!   
All I need is about $4million and I'd buy a house in your neighborhood.  
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 64):
(Like freakin' all the way out to Pomona


I met a guy yesterday at from Pomona at my friend's restaurant Thanksgiving party here in Bangkok.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 64):
If by punch, you mean "kick to the face from a startled meth-addicted donkey", then yeah, that's about right. Unfortunately, that also applies to the aftertaste. If it makes you feel any better, the aforementioned broad thinks I'm a total wuss b/c I don't drink things that were brewed in a septic tank,


It came in handy when I was a struggling college student in the 1990s. I often cooked at home and those Steel Reserves were great with my bacon double cheeseburgers and french fries.
My cheap meal was chili over rice with Tabasco sauce with a bottle of Steel Reserve to chase it down.
I also made my own homemade tortilla chips in my deep friar. That along with my homemade salsa and re-fried beens with a bottle of Steel Reserve.
It sure as hell beat TV dinners or Ramen noodles. I ate & drank well as a struggling college student.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 68, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63):
There is always that 1 house on the street with a really old person that rarely comes outside that lives in one that hasn't been remodelled.

Yeah, that'll prolly be my house, 30 years from now!  

I like it too much to remodel it, and I'm not too likely to change my mind.

Actually there's a 3 season porch on the south end of the house that may become a jacuzzi room or something, but I won't change the lines of the house.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63):
The cocaine scenes were not my favorite parts of that movie.

I agree, but they weren't too far off what was going on at the time. Unfortunately the popularity of the movie helped popularize cocaine, which as above lead to a lot of crime and other unfortunate behavior on the part of many.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 66):
The ref's officiating Detroit football games don't call a player as being down when his knee touches. He's only down when his knee touches and then you kick him in the balls.

LOL! Yep, that's the way they roll in Detroit.

Luckily, the NY Jets stunk far worse than Detroit, and will be the "butt" of many jokes today!

Video of Mark Sanchez Fumbles After Getting Floored By His Lineman's Butt

What a disaster the NY Jets were last night!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 69, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):
Yeah, that'll prolly be my house, 30 years from now!


So I guess you'll remain indoors posting on Airliners.net as an old man.   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):
Unfortunately the popularity of the movie helped popularize cocaine, which as above lead to a lot of crime and other unfortunate behavior on the part of many.


Cocaine was popular before that movie came out. Saturday Night Fever came out in late 1977. Many of the Blacksploitation films shot in New York were made around 1972-74.
Superfly (not me) was a cocaine pusher.
BTW, was there any Blacksploitation films from this era shot in Detroit.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
BTW, was there any Blacksploitation films from this era shot in Detroit.

Detroit 9000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy8T34aMxhs

[Edited 2012-11-23 09:43:19]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 71, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 70):
Detroit 9000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy8T3...aMxhs



Thanks!
Now THAT looks like my kind of movie.  
Bad acting, car chase scenes, nudity, funky guitar track playing in the background, pimps with big hats, corrupt police, corrupt politicians - a recipe for an excellent movie. I hope theres some North Central DC-9s and CV-560 scenes at DTW.
The cityscape of Detroit at that time didn't look bad at all even though it was already in decline.
Detroit at that time was the murder capital of the US. Eventually my hometown of Gary, Indiana would wear that title for 11 years until it's population fell below 100,000 just two years ago.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Fly if you've got a half hour to kill then take a look at this http://vimeo.com/5337314
All too real to a twelve year old kid at the time. Nice gun battle at around the 24 minute mark. This is when the decline of Detroit really took off.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 73, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 72):
Fly if you've got a half hour to kill then take a look at this http://vimeo.com/5337314
All too real to a twelve year old kid at the time. Nice gun battle at around the 24 minute mark. This is when the decline of Detroit really took off.



Thanks. I've just downloaded it.
That is the image most people still have of Detroit. That is a city that still hasn't comeback yet. The Renaissance Center has done little in terms of revitalizing the city. It's ironic that the best view of Detroit is from Windsor, Canada.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 74, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 72):
Fly if you've got a half hour to kill then take a look at this http://vimeo.com/5337314

Hadn't seen that tape before. Thanks for sharing. I was 6 years old at the time the riots occurred and my dad, who wasn't known for his IQ, took my slightly older brother and I downtown to see the riots first hand. It was during the day, of course as there were strict curfews in place and I remember asking my dad how come there were "army men" walking around. We lived about four miles north of the 8 Mile border and I remember seeing military helicopters fly over our house several times a day (I didn't know it at the time but I assume they were going to and from Selfridge Air Base). The two reporters in the film, Jim Herrington and Ken Thomas were well known local ABC newsman and I think Herrington is still with Channel 7. Also, a bit ironic seeing Mitt's father, MI Governor George Romney in the film. I found it odd that he and an entourage of only three or four seemed to be touring the streets of Detroit in their vehicle unescorted.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

My Father owned a Lumber yard in the city and shut down for the week of the riot. We lived a couple miles outside the city limits and in our city they were running four man scout cars who heavily patrolled the main arteries out of Detroit. Dad had a shotgun in the bedroom at night and a fire extinguisher by the front door. He got a call on Monday from the Detroit police to tell him the alarm was going off at the yard. He went down with my oldest brother who was home on leave from the army to check things out(he also took the shotgun).The Police met him there and told him to just leave the alarm off because if they were going to burn it, the alarm wasn't going to help. Thankfully the trouble stayed a couple miles away to the Northeast. On Tuesday Dad took the family over to his friends house to go swimming. His friend lived at the Lodge and Eight mile across the street from the Eight mile Armory. Looking to the Southeast, you could see nothing but black smoke billowing everywhere.Sometime in the late afternoon the gates opened on the Armory and out rolled a long line of police cars,jeeps,APC's with 50 cals,M-60 tanks(yes tanks) and truckloads of National guardsmen (pretty much what you see in the video) who then proceeded east on Eight mile towards Woodward Ave. There were a number of staging areas along Eight mile including the Eight mile Armory, the State fair grounds, the Light Guard Armory and a couple of others. The Detroit Fire Department would also stage their equipment at these locations as rest and recuperation centers and rotate crews in and out.The Salvation Army was also present to provide food and drink to all personnel. The one thing that sticks out about 67 is that it was more of a civil disturbance than a riot. It wasn't Black against White. It was Black and White against the system.Whites were out looting a burning along with the Blacks. The final nail in the coffin for Detroit happened six years later with the Election of Coleman Young as Mayor. The divisions that he widened between the whites and blacks and also between the city and suburbs linger on to this day.BTW, did you catch the price of gas at the time? $0.28.9. Oh those were the days.

[Edited 2012-11-24 12:52:51]

User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 76, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 72):
Fly if you've got a half hour to kill then take a look at this http://vimeo.com/5337314

Interesting shots of Gov Romney.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 75):
The one thing that sticks out about 67 is that it was more of a civil disturbance than a riot. It wasn't Black against White. It was Black and White against the system.Whites were out looting a burning along with the Blacks.

That video did not represent that, in fact the reporter and the people he interviewed on the streets said the opposite.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 76):
That video did not represent that, in fact the reporter and the people he interviewed on the streets said the opposite.

You could fill volumes with the truths that are never told. I have lived here all my life, I think I would know a little more then outsiders. However here's a link with more pictures and stories from people who saw it first hand also. Sixth picture down tells the story.

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/85676.html

This picture tells the real story too.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 77):
You could fill volumes with the truths that are never told. I have lived here all my life, I think I would know a little more then outsiders. However here's a link with more pictures and stories from people who saw it first hand also. Sixth picture down tells the story.

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/85676.html

This picture tells the real story too.

I give you that some whites looted and there were opportunities for arson. That is petty theft and arson, not "standing up to the man" as you implied.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 79, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 78):

I give you that some whites looted and there were opportunities for arson. That is petty theft and arson, not "standing up to the man" as you implied.



Obviously you didn't read through all of the posts on the link I provided, so again don't try and tell me what this was or wasn't. This happened on the planet before you were born,I lived through it. Over 900 Whites were arrested for looting and other offenses. Here's the link to the first part of what I linked above. http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/85964.html?1233694687 Take the time to read all of the posts from the people who were there,it's very enlightening for those too young or from out of the area. I've got a Black guy that works for me who's 65 years old, he took part in the riots , stood shoulder to shoulder with whites and looted ,then stoned the cops and National Guard.One term you will never,ever hear people in this area say when referring to 67 is "Race Riot",it's only referred to as "the riot of 67" or the "67 riot".That's the problem with History books and Newspapers, they don't tell the whole truth.It's a well known fact in these parts that the final body count was grossly under estimated, but you won't read that in any history books either.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 80, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 79):
Obviously you didn't read through all of the posts on the link I provided, so again don't try and tell me what this was or wasn't. This happened on the planet before you were born,I lived through it. Over 900 Whites were arrested for looting and other offenses. Here's the link to the first part of what I linked above. http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/85964.html?1233694687 Take the time to read all of the posts from the people who were there,it's very enlightening for those too young or from out of the area. I've got a Black guy that works for me who's 65 years old, he took part in the riots , stood shoulder to shoulder with whites and looted ,then stoned the cops and National Guard.One term you will never,ever hear people in this area say when referring to 67 is "Race Riot",it's only referred to as "the riot of 67" or the "67 riot".That's the problem with History books and Newspapers, they don't tell the whole truth.It's a well known fact in these parts that the final body count was grossly under estimated, but you won't read that in any history books either.

I did read every one of those posts. Im sorry but your links are nothing but littered with heavy racial implications, as are the links your link provides. At least one witness on your link does indeed use "race riot" while several talk about white participation on the first day before evolving into more. Others write about being targeted as whites (I'm sure that went both ways). What else can "black owned" imply other than white owned businesses were (hopefully) the targets? There are several innocent white civilian deaths at the hands of blacks as well. And you ignore the Detroit reporter walking the streets saying the same things.

That a small percentage of whites were involved with crimes does not negate that. Trying to whitewash it, so to speak, is nothing but revisionist history. No, I was not in Detroit at that time but in a predominantly black neighborhood in another northern city.

[Edited 2012-11-24 20:16:55]

User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 81, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Seems like all the tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer money thrown at that money pit had a somewhat positive effect for the time being, before they manage to screw it all up again, hum? You're welcome.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1390 posts, RR: 3
Reply 82, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 81):

Seems like all the tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer money thrown at that money pit had a somewhat positive effect for the time being, before they manage to screw it all up again, hum? You're welcome.

I'd ask what you think they should have done, but I think I have a good enough idea already...

Disasters happen. New Orleans had it's Katrina, the state of Florida has had numerous run-ins with disastrous WX of its own, SF had the Loma Prita quake, & on and on... Pitching in to keep a city from turning into a catastrophe is what the Feds are there for. As a US taxpayer, I don't mind at all that we did what we did to keep the forces of entropy from devouring Detroit. Seriously, if we're not going to do everything in our power to rescue a city in desperate need, why even have a Government at all? It's not a for-profit enterprise.

After the trillions we spent "fixing" Iraq & Afghanistan, a few billion to prop up a Domestic Employer and revitalize a real, american city, right here at home, is the very least we can do.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 80):
That a small percentage of whites were involved with crimes does not negate that. Trying to whitewash it, so to speak, is nothing but revisionist history. No, I was not in Detroit at that time but in a predominantly black neighborhood in another northern city.



OK, I surrender. You didn't live here,probably have never been here, but continue to believe you know more about it than me because you read it in a History book. You win.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 84, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 82):

So you are actually comparing natural disasters, such as hurricanes and earthquakes, with man (union)-made destruction such as what happened to Detroit?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 85, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 83):
OK, I surrender. You didn't live here,probably have never been here, but continue to believe you know more about it than me because you read it in a History book. You win.

You're wasting your breath, er time.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Dearborn has it's serious issues too. The place looks like Bagdad.

You mean that literally with all the Arabic businesses and Arabic population? What kind of issues? No they aren't going to start a Holy war with Southfield and West Bloomfield. Last time I was through Dearborn it was well kept up and didn't look like a war zone. I went to school in Dearborn back in late 90s early 2000s and for the most part it was pretty nice at least on the west end. It has been a while since I was over on the east end of Dearborn.


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