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NHL Lockout Update PT 2: Talks To Resume Monday  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

Old thread was archived.

Looks like according to ESPN, the talks are going to resume monday....

But that's just it. So far, it's all just talking and talking, with very little ACTUALLY getting done.

An analyst I saw on ESPN a few days back suggested that the entire 2012/2013 season is going to be scrapped, because there's no way that the Bettman leadership and the NHLPA higher-ups are ever going to agree on anything.

Let's look at some history here- the 04/05 lockout ended in July 05 with a hastily drawn up contract in order to avoid another lockout for 05/06. If that contract wasn't drawn up and if the pressure from the stadium owners, cities, and fans didn't mount as much as it did then, we can probably say that the NHL would still be in the same lockout it was in 2004, and that we would probably have a completely new hockey league.

Seriously, there has got to be changes, but what can happen, and what can we, the fans, do?

In my opinions- one- Bettman has got to go. I know it's not 100% his fault but his leadership is trash.
two- the NHLPA needs a restructuring, and THEY need education on how to actually spend money, and mental training on the value of the dollar. These players are making millions and they're squabbling over percentages!

three- both the NHLPA and Bettman need to realize that fans are first. NOT them. FANS are the reason why they have money in the first place. I wish the two parties would have learned this back in 2004.

Rant over    Your thoughts?


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflykev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6036 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

I think Bettman is just a figurehead to be honest and that even if he was to go, there is no reasoning as to why this same problem will not rear its ugly head in future years.
I am not saying I am on Bettmans side but I do feel he gets more negativity than he is due, especially when you take a look at how awkward the NHLPA has been so far. I dislike Fehr's attitude immensely and also Jeremy Jacobs I feel is not helping things progress.

As I was saying to one of my mates earlier actually, I am surprised at how far into November we have gotten without the NHL cancelling Decembers games; and whilst I am sure they will be cancelled soon I find it interesting how the league has not done so yet - a small ray of hope perhaps?

I think everyone would have been better off if they had taken the pretty decent 50/50 offer set up a little while back however we are now well passed that. Quite frankly now I just want both sides to sign something and I don't care what so I can go back to watching NHL hockey.

Feels that the talent doesn't really care about the game or the fans else this whole mess would have been avoided.

Kev.



The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Looks like according to ESPN, the talks are going to resume monday....

Pretty sad to go to ESPN's NHL page and have the lead article be about a video game!

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
we would probably have a completely new hockey league

As long as you have the same owners making the same silly decisions time and again, the NHL will always be a weak league. The season's too long (they can't even keep the ice frozen in the Stanley Cup), there are too many teams, some of the markets they are in just make no sense at all (so why grant franchises you know are going to fail?) and on and on it goes.

I like hockey a lot, but face it, the current set of owners have pushed it past the breaking point. They just can't discipline themselves.

I read that one of the negotiating points is about who is going to pay for the lockout - what? If you lock someone out, it's all on you!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4065 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

This whole setup seems to be a terrible way to run a professional sport.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

My thoughts? I would tell you what my thoughts on Donald Fehr are, but when I was a child my mother always told me "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
In my opinions- one- Bettman has got to go. I know it's not 100% his fault but his leadership is trash.

If I had to get rid of anyone in the NHL leadership, it would be Bill Daly. He's as much as fault as Bettman is, yet he seems to bring little value to the league, Bettman at least makes people money.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
two- the NHLPA needs a restructuring, and THEY need education on how to actually spend money, and mental training on the value of the dollar. These players are making millions and they're squabbling over percentages!

         But as I've said in every other thread: This union shouldn't even exist.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I like hockey a lot, but face it, the current set of owners have pushed it past the breaking point. They just can't discipline themselves.

I generally agree with that statement, although we can't paint all the owners with the same brush. Some owners are worse than others unfortunately, which I think goes for every sport.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting flykev (Reply 1):
I am not saying I am on Bettmans side but I do feel he gets more negativity than he is due, especially when you take a look at how awkward the NHLPA has been so far.

He is doing the bidding of the owners and that is his job.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Seriously, there has got to be changes, but what can happen, and what can we, the fans, do?

Nothing while the season is going on but when it comes back we don't go.

The biggest change is that both sides should be locked in a room until a deal is reached, they can be fed allowed to use the bathroom etc. but they stay in the NHL offices until this deal is reached.

Also if you are really against the union then get the NHL to bring in replacement players which is what the NFL would have done last year if their lockout lasted into the season and did it this year with the refs. Enough players will cross the picket line if that is done.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 5):
Also if you are really against the union then get the NHL to bring in replacement players which is what the NFL would have done last year if their lockout lasted into the season and did it this year with the refs. Enough players will cross the picket line if that is done.

I'm 100% for this. This million-dollar union nonsense is getting out of hand. Plus I'm sure we would see less players jumping ship to the KHL.

It would also be a great opportunity for some amateur players to get seen.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
As long as you have the same owners making the same silly decisions time and again, the NHL will always be a weak league

Sadly the case  
Quoting moo (Reply 3):
This whole setup seems to be a terrible way to run a professional sport.

Well, sadly, it is the way all pro sports in the US are run, seems like.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 4):
But as I've said in every other thread: This union shouldn't even exist.

Yeah I agree, as I said. I'm not sure how this is going to actually work. it's not about anti-union; the only thing I feasibly see the union being useful for is protecting the players from injury.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 6):
I'm 100% for this. This million-dollar union nonsense is getting out of hand. Plus I'm sure we would see less players jumping ship to the KHL.

It would also be a great opportunity for some amateur players to get seen.

I agree with that proposal, but will it actually happen? Who knows  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Let's look at some history here- the 04/05 lockout ended in July 05 with a hastily drawn up contract in order to avoid another lockout for 05/06.

Sad thing about that strike was that hockey was about to experience a breakthrough in popularity. They still had a television contract with a major network, major league basketball was experiencing labor issues and it seemed they were higher up on the casual fan's interest meter. The work stoppage killed any good buzz they had at the time. This time is different as the national interest level is down for the casual fan.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 5):
Also if you are really against the union then get the NHL to bring in replacement players which is what the NFL would have done last year if their lockout lasted into the season and did it this year with the refs. Enough players will cross the picket line if that is done.

Actually, over the years, I believe I've enjoyed attending minor league games more so that NHL events. Lower prices, easier to find good seats and decent level of play.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6035 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Hopefully they can get something together to salvage the season. Both sides are being incredibly childish and greedy. Somebody should have taught them to share when they were little. I wash hoping to go to a Rangers game in December. Even if they do fix it I'm not sure I want to give my money to a league that has no interests in keeping their fans happy.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
The work stoppage killed any good buzz they had at the time.

Yeah exactly. The buzz from last year's amazing season is again killed, and it's going to cause major financial and emotional strain on a number of small market teams.

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
Actually, over the years, I believe I've enjoyed attending minor league games more so that NHL events. Lower prices, easier to find good seats and decent level of play.

In 08 or 09, i forget when, I went to the Kelly Cup Final game in Cincinnati, and watched the Cyclones win it....all for $20! Front row goal line seats, the action was right in front of me, and the post-game celebration happened right there in front of me. Best dang $20 I ever spent!

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
Both sides are being incredibly childish and greedy.

Agreed, which makes me wonder what kinds of outside intervention could occur in this case, if any.

My idea would be representatives from the Original 6 cities, plus representatives from 6 small market teams' cities, plus one from a medium market or new market, like Winnipeg, for example, sit down with the NHL and the NHLPA and mediate this whole childish mess.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
but what can happen, and what can we, the fans, do?

Not much. That's the problem. We can always boycott the first matches of the season (in the arenas and on TV), to show that we were very unhappy with the lockout. It's not going to change their lives, but it will show them something at least.

Or, as I said previously, we should create the NHLFA in order to have an "official" channel of communication from the fans, be allowed to express our anger or, why not, participate to the negociations.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
there are too many teams

   I'm sure the NHL would do just fine with 2 or 4 teams less. It would make also the league more competitive.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
Both sides are being incredibly childish and greedy

True that. It's become even pathetic.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Seriously, there has got to be changes, but what can happen, and what can we, the fans, do?

The fans will go right back like an abused housewife as if nothing ever happened, shelling out ever more money for the same overpaid players/owners in a monopoly industry, and the cycle will continue



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

As a Canadian, hockey is like religion to me. However, given the serial short-sightedness of both parties in the several labour disputes over the past twenty or so years, I'm near the point where I no longer care. I can watch junior or minor league hockey. I can do other things: symphony, theater, for example. There's always somewhere else to spend your $$$, and both the league and the PA should realise that, since the NHL is still largely gate-driven.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the above.

I presume there was a contract that both parties signed, no?

A lockout is by definition where management refuses to honor the contract, no?

So why is this the player's fault?

If management can't honor a contract they signed, shouldn't they reorganize under bankruptcy laws that exist in both the US and Canada?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
I presume there was a contract that both parties signed, no?

The only contract is the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), which has expired.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
A lockout is by definition where management refuses to honor the contract, no?

Not quite. A lockout is a form of job action (contract or not) whereby the management/firm refuse to admit employees. The idea being that causing this inconvenience will force the membership to accept certain terms in order to broker a favourable deal for management.

The NHLPA isn't going for anything the NHL puts on the table, so the NHL says "no games til you do".

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
So why is this the player's fault?

Because the fact that a union whose membership averages $2 million in pay per year actually exists is a gross injustice to the idea of a union in the first place. Further to that, this union whose membership commands an average wage 50 times that of the average Canadian, actually has the gall to demand more money for doing equal work to what they were doing under the previous contract.

I'm completely oversimplifying here, but that's my general gripe with the PA.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4284 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6031 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 5):
Also if you are really against the union then get the NHL to bring in replacement players which is what the NFL would have done last year if their lockout lasted into the season and did it this year with the refs. Enough players will cross the picket line if that is done.

I doubt it. Didn't happen in baseball in 1994, unlikely to happen in the NHL. And the players crossing the line would be blacklisted in the future.

Remember that the owners locked out the players here. The players offered to continue playing under the previous contract as they worked on a deal. The owners rejected that. So now we're in this mess. Players make way too much, sure. So do owners. But the biggest problem is the boneheaded deals owners give to players. So now they are looking to renege on or restructure multiple contracts that they handed out and now regret. Too bad. If you're an owner and you're in trouble you only have yourself to blame. NHL-quality players are a scarce commodity. But the market is pure capitalism in action: you get to pay a person solely for the quality of work you expect while in a competitive market (29 or so other NHL teams plus potentially KHL or other international leagues entering the bidding).

The way some of the owners and GMs spend their money does make me question their sanity and begs the question of whether they are qualified to run a McDonald's restaurant, much less a multi-million dollar sports franchise.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6017 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
The only contract is the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), which has expired.

Thanks for that explanation and all the others too.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Because the fact that a union whose membership averages $2 million in pay per year actually exists is a gross injustice to the idea of a union in the first place. Further to that, this union whose membership commands an average wage 50 times that of the average Canadian, actually has the gall to demand more money for doing equal work to what they were doing under the previous contract.

That's a pretty strident opinion, which of course you are entitled to.

Mine's different, because I became a sports fan before the era before free agency in any US sport, where players were basically the owner's beotches. Talk of splitting the revenue 50/50 with the players would have been laughable then. Owners controlled every aspect of the player's career from the minor leagues till they retired.

This article doesn't really do him justice, but you might want to read about Marvin Miller and the changes before, during and after his career.

Personally, I feel that power has shifted too much to the players, but as Texan points out, a lot of that is because the owners can't discipline themselves and they decided to fight the players as well as each other rather than come up with a framework that would be best for the sport as a whole.

IMHO the NFL did a great job of creating such a framework, but their owners had the luxury of seeing what Marvin Miller and the MLBPA could achieve to convince them such a framework was needed.

To me the other sports have failed at some of the basic things needed to keep the game competitive, mostly due to owner's greed and the lack the foresight needed to have such a framework. These things include too long a season with too many meaningless games, and too many playoff games (both because owners thought it'd make for some good paydays for them), and too many teams which just weakens the talent base and ends up putting franchises in places that can't support them (also because the owners wanted the franchise fees that new teams pay).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6011 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
A lockout is by definition where management refuses to honor the contract, no?

Yes but in this case the contract did expire on Sept 15th. One has been happening more and more in all CBA negotiations is that both sides are using a strike or lockout as a method of first resort when it usually is that of last resort.

Quoting texan (Reply 16):
I doubt it. Didn't happen in baseball in 1994, unlikely to happen in the NHL. And the players crossing the line would be blacklisted in the future.

That was a strike, the players walked off the job and all agreed to not allow the 1994 season and World Series to happen. In a strike it is far less common for players to cross the line.

Just to say had last year's NFL lockout affected the camps and the season then there would have been replacement players used. It depends on the structure of the league and the NHL owners didn't have a plan for this where I'm sure the NFL did.

Quoting texan (Reply 16):
But the biggest problem is the boneheaded deals owners give to players. So now they are looking to renege on or restructure multiple contracts that they handed out and now regret. Too bad. If you're an owner and you're in trouble you only have yourself to blame.

This is one area I side with the union, they see this as a method to control themselves. It comes down to personal responsibility and if you sign 110 million 13 year contracts I don't have any sympathy for you.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
To me the other sports have failed at some of the basic things needed to keep the game competitive, mostly due to owner's greed and the lack the foresight needed to have such a framework. These things include too long a season with too many meaningless games, and too many playoff games (both because owners thought it'd make for some good paydays for them), and too many teams which just weakens the talent base and ends up putting franchises in places that can't support them (also because the owners wanted the franchise fees that new teams pay).

Regarding the NHL at least 4-6 teams need to fold and two need to move back to Canada. The league cannot support 30 teams and would be best with 24-26 and in a game as physical as hockey the seasons should be dropped to about 70 games. Bonuses here would be teams in markets that can support them, better talent pool and healthier players.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Regarding the NHL at least 4-6 teams need to fold and two need to move back to Canada. The league cannot support 30 teams and would be best with 24-26 and in a game as physical as hockey the seasons should be dropped to about 70 games. Bonuses here would be teams in markets that can support them, better talent pool and healthier players.

Agree totally, however, I can't see any feasible way for this to happen.

Hockey is a great sport to watch, especially live at the stadium. Unfortunately for it, a lot of the flow of the game, and the size, speed and skill of the players does not come out as well on TV as it does live, but it seems cameras are cheap enough now to capture a lot more of the action than was captured in earlier times.

The Stanley Cup finals can be as exiting an event as there is in all sports IMHO, and the ceremony at the end where the cup is awarded is one of the best in sports for its pure emotion, the victors and the vanquished both shaking hands. The act itself a testament to sportsmanship, IMHO.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11766 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

They should not start playing again until they agree that the Canucks WILL win the Cup!!


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6003 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):

Boy I guess this lock out will last longer than expected . We all know the next cup winner will be the Wild  .
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

Go Whale!




Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5970 times:

This is the NHLPA's proposal. Fehr said it was "at the limit of the best they could offer".

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...29/complete-nhlpa-offer-to-the-nhl



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

TSN reporter Darren Dreger's message on Twitter: "Close on rev sharing, but no contract concessions and league remains firm on $211 mil Make Whole. Talks will continue, but may not meet Thur"

RDS reporter Renaud Lavoie confirmed soon after that there will be no talks tomorrow. Actually, no talks are planned at all at this stage.

So, are we moving towards another season cancelled?



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5986 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 23):
This is the NHLPA's proposal. Fehr said it was "at the limit of the best they could offer".

Yikes. The one thing in this whole fiasco I don't understand is the fact that they can pay these players less after they signed a contract. Take for example the Parise and Sutter contracts. Talk about big money. But the owners probably figured they would get to take a good what, 8% off of that? I know it is silly when you are talking about millions and millions but I'm not sure how somebody can sign a legal document and not comply. This whole thing is just nuts and needs to end. The fact that they are so far apart on a number is a terrible sign. I think that article pretty much ended my hope for a season. Unless the owners are in a good mood for the holiday.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 16):
I doubt it. Didn't happen in baseball in 1994, unlikely to happen in the NHL. And the players crossing the line would be blacklisted in the future.

It was mentioned during the last Lockout by one of the owners of the Thrashers, Steve Belkin. He got fined for saying that the owners planned to use replacement players for the 2005-06 season if the NHLPA had not agreed to a new deal before that season. One of the many ways Atlanta Spirit endeared themselves to the NHL during their time owning the Thrashers.

With the minor league players of the AHL, ECHL and CHL represented by a union (Pro Hockey Players Association), there's no way they would play as replacement players. Now players in minor pro leagues like the Southern Professional Hockey League and Federal Hockey League and the semi-pro North American Hockey League in Quebec might since they are players that never really made it to the NHL or even the major minor leagues (ECHL, AHL, CHL) and this would be the only way for them to be in the NHL.

As for contraction, that was mentioned during the previous Lockout and there is no way that the NHLPA would sign off on it since it would be costing them player jobs in the NHL. Some have even mentioned expansion as opposed to contraction to put the NHL at 32 teams and making it easier to realign the divisions and conferences. These two expansion teams would likely be in Canadian markets (The GTA and Quebec City) and would result in a lot of $$$ in the pockets of the NHL owners as rumors are that such an expansion fee would be in the $500 million per team range and there's already an ownership group lined up in Quebec City that has deep pockets to pay such a fee.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5950 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Because the fact that a union whose membership averages $2 million in pay per year actually exists is a gross injustice to the idea of a union in the first place

   As stated above the only viable thing I see them doing is making sure players aren't injured or playing while still not fully recovered. Other than that, it's just greed. And I'm a republican, I hear about "greed" all the time   

Quoting srbmod (Reply 26):

It all just sounds like a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense to me.....to any of the players/owners potentially reading this, stop the monetary bickering, put the discrepancy funds to good use, like, improving the fan experience, and START PLAYING already   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5946 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 26):
As for contraction, that was mentioned during the previous Lockout and there is no way that the NHLPA would sign off on it since it would be costing them player jobs in the NHL. Some have even mentioned expansion as opposed to contraction to put the NHL at 32 teams and making it easier to realign the divisions and conferences. These two expansion teams would likely be in Canadian markets (The GTA and Quebec City) and would result in a lot of $$$ in the pockets of the NHL owners as rumors are that such an expansion fee would be in the $500 million per team range and there's already an ownership group lined up in Quebec City that has deep pockets to pay such a fee.


Further expansion is the last thing the NHL needs:

1) talent pool just not there, including all of Canada, US, and Europe;
2) not enough viable markets.

A contraction to 28 teams would be a good first step. Problem is: who to delete ? From various media articles, it seems between them, Anaheim, Phoenix, Florida, and Islanders are losing around $70M/year. Devils also losing and I believe in bankruptcy. I think with Wang's new agreement with the Barclay Centre, Islanders are no longer a candidate to move to GTA. So delete two of the above and move the other two to Quebec and GTA.

More radical contraction, to 24 teams, would be a tougher nut to crack, but the on-ice product would be much better. I'd like to see Columbus' books, for one.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5925 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 28):
1) talent pool just not there, including all of Canada, US, and Europe;

Well think of it this way: how about expanding the juniors and the college hockey program to CREATE the talent?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
Well think of it this way: how about expanding the juniors and the college hockey program to CREATE the talent?

There will still be a shortage of talent gifted enough to play in the NHL. What needs to happen is reduce the league to 28 teams. 2 conferences of 14 split into 2 divisions of 7. Reduce the season to a 70 game schedule, Play home and away with every team twice, plus an additional home & away within your division. That way the fans will get to see the product they want and with a reduced season no whining from the players about travel AND they shouldn't be coasting not putting effort in during a regular season game.
I watch Junior A hockey on a regular basis, you never see anyone coasting in a Junior game. Where on several occasions I have been at NHL games only to see the "STARS" spend less than 15 minutes on the ice.
The NHL and the NHLPA need to get a grip and clean up their act before they win me back as a fan !

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5889 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
Well think of it this way: how about expanding the juniors and the college hockey program to CREATE the talent?

I think the biggest problem is just the cost. Growing up I used to love watching hockey. My mom was an executive secretary for the whalers so I got to meet a bunch of players, get autographs, etc. But I could never afford to actually play. A lot of sports are expensive equipment wise, and I understand this, but ice team can get crazy expensive. I would have loved to learn but for a standard middle class family it isn't a cheap proposition when baseball, flag football, soccer, etc are $100 for the season. Right now though I think there is plenty of talent. The only problem is they want to be compensated higher than their employers believe they should be. I certainly hope they can fix this, because the kids who can afford it are watching this, and wondering why their heroes are being so greedy.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 32, posted (2 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

"On pretty much every NHLPA conference call with the players in past weeks, there's been some discussion on the potential of decertification as an NHLPA strategic tool." as per Bob McKenzie.

and FYI.

2004-05 season was cancelled Feb. 16. just to give you a milestone of sorts.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 33, posted (2 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5864 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 32):
2004-05 season was cancelled Feb. 16. just to give you a milestone of sorts.

Well as sad as this sounds at least we have some time before this milestone is hit.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (2 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Unsurprisingly, the NHL has now cancelled all games until 14th December, as well as the All-Star game in Columbus.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=646209&navid=DL|NHL|home



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 35, posted (2 years 4 days ago) and read 5845 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 34):
Unsurprisingly, the NHL has now cancelled all games until 14th December, as well as the All-Star game in Columbus.

  

Well this is detrimental for the Jackets program. They only got this thing in the first place because they've been struggling big time since 2009.

Guys, I have very little hope that we're going to get a season off this year. It's best we all just stick to rooting for the A, AA, and AAA teams. Or college hockey.

Go Redhawks  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
It's best we all just stick to rooting for the A, AA, and AAA teams. Or college hockey.

That's what I did. With some friends, we went to see the McGill Redmen vs the Nipissing Lakers last Saturday. For 10 bucks each, we had an excellent hockey game (McGill won 4-3 after being led 3-1 in the third period) in a nice atmosphere. Of course, this is not the NHL level in the Bell Center but you "feel" the game more as you're seating two feet away from the ice  .

It was good hockey and we'll certainly go again!



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Some good news on the lockout front, both parties look like they will agree to let this go to arbitration.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/26...labour-talks-will-resume-this-week



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 38, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 37):
Some good news on the lockout front, both parties look like they will agree to let this go to arbitration.

THIS is something which should have been done months ago, before the lockout even began.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5638 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 38):
THIS is something which should have been done months ago, before the lockout even began.

Well unfortunately both sides were hoping they could get what they wanted without arbitration. It's a step but I won't be excited until they drop the first puck and Bettman is relaxing in his retirement home in the Caribbean.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 40, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 39):
Well unfortunately both sides were hoping they could get what they wanted without arbitration. It's a step but I won't be excited until they drop the first puck and Bettman is relaxing in his retirement home in the Caribbean.

Happy Joining Day anniversary, by the way   

Well both sides are meeting tomorrow, and reportedly, both sides are sick of the whole thing. I hope that's good news.


Some updates here in the valley; the City of Glendale approved a new management plan over Jobing.com arena, a step needed for potential Coyotes buyer to actually buy the Yotes from the NHL.

Someone I know who attended the meeting says that once he buys the Yotes, he will sign a lease to keep them here for at the very least 10 years.

He seems like the type of owner who is a players' owner; a guy who would probably end up being at odds against Bettman in terms of the collective bargaining issues. He apparently also stated if he was an owner at this time, he would probably work to just give the players what they wanted and use mediation to fix the rest of the grievances.

Good news for the Coyotes here, but in all honesty, nothing to cheer for unless we can begin cheering in the arenas



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 41, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 37):
Some good news on the lockout front, both parties look like they will agree to let this go to arbitration.



I believe both sides have agreed to a mediator. Mediation is not binding. It's just a third party trying to help the process. Mediators were used in 2004-05 and look what happened there.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5423 posts, RR: 52
Reply 42, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 41):


I believe both sides have agreed to a mediator. Mediation is not binding. It's just a third party trying to help the process. Mediators were used in 2004-05 and look what happened there.

Largely correct. Mediation and arbitration are both forms of alternative dispute resolution that feature a third party trying to help the process. Mediation is, as you mention, nonbinding and can end in an impasse and a mediator doesn't have to choose a proposal as being the "correct" resolution.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5592 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
Happy Joining Day anniversary, by the way   

Thanks! Can't believe it has been 5 years!

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 41):
I believe both sides have agreed to a mediator. Mediation is not binding. It's just a third party trying to help the process. Mediators were used in 2004-05 and look what happened there.

Bummer, I was hoping for arbitration. It's a step, but whether or not it is in the right direction I'm not sure. It's too bad they're all so money hungry that they won't just get an arbitrator...
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 44, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5526 times:

God damn it:
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/..._lockout_update_nhl_nhlpa_m_1.html
"Meeting with mediators ends with both sides still far apart"

  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5435 times:

Seems that both Bettman and Fehr will NOT be at the meeting, so perhaps room for optimism. One of the owners who will be present is Mark Chipman of Winnipeg. I get the impression he's well thought of.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 45):
Seems that both Bettman and Fehr will NOT be at the meeting, so perhaps room for optimism. One of the owners who will be present is Mark Chipman of Winnipeg. I get the impression he's well thought of.

as per Aaron Ward- "Source,Meeting involving NHL Owners and Players to take place Tuesday with 6 Owners and approximately same number of players"

Jermey Jacobs will be attending as well. Not a big fan of that guy. Other owners... Edwards, Burkle, Chipman, Vinik, Tannenbaum.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8226 posts, RR: 26
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

These people are idiots, the whole lot of them. Millions of dollars for a game boys play, and you'd think nobody on either side ever thought for a moment about where their money comes from. It turns the stomach while demonstrating a galling lack of perspective or responsibility.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

The first thing I am going to say about the lockout is who cares any more? I can't see any thing happening soon. The mediators could not come up with any solutions and the real problem lies with the players getting contracts that are similar to that of other sports yet there is not a US network deal in place that would provide for the increased revenue needed to support the current contracts that are presently in force. The owners, although not having the income from hockey to support these million dollar contracts, keep signing contracts that they can't afford. There are maybe 10 teams that can make money. 15 teams that may or may not make money. 5 teams that should not even exist. Columbus, Tampa, Miami (Florida), Nashville, and Phoenix. The have more empty seats in their arenas then people and they have not been able to be fix the on ice situation. Once they do that and get rid of Bettman, the NHL would be a more prosperous league. Oh yeah, and fixthe game back to the way it use to be back in the 80's when there was actual talent and scoring and not a bunch of testosterone driven blockheads making the game slow and very less appealing.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 48):
The owners, although not having the income from hockey to support these million dollar contracts, keep signing contracts that they can't afford.

Good luck to a owner trying to challenge a player's contract in court. A contract is a contract after all. This whole NHL lock-out is ridiculous and the owners need to suck it up on their boneheaded moves. And those boneheaded moves by the owners are not the players fault....regardless of what sport it is.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5423 posts, RR: 52
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 48):
Tampa, Miami (Florida), Nashville

Are not the problem. Go to a Preds game. Really go to one. They have some of the most passionate fans in the game. Tampa was 2nd in the league for average attendance for a few years after they won their Cup and only mediocrity and poor ownership caused those numbers to suffer. Likewise with Florida - when the team did well last season you saw a nice spike in attendance. Likewise Columbus has awful ownership and Phoenix - well, that's just a charlie foxtrot. If you're wanting to kick teams out of the league for spotty attendance, be sure you kick Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders out for their attendance problems. Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
If you're wanting to kick teams out of the league for spotty attendance, be sure you kick Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders out for their attendance problems. Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.

Huh? All those teams, except for the Islanders, have excellent attendance.  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
Are not the problem. Go to a Preds game. Really go to one. They have some of the most passionate fans in the game. Tampa was 2nd in the league for average attendance for a few years after they won their Cup and only mediocrity and poor ownership caused those numbers to suffer.

My opinion of a successful team is one that can fill the seats when the team sucks, in most sports you can get the fans coming when a team is a contender. There are a handful of teams in the NHL that can do this, in the NFL probably 80% of the teams can do that and I think I am underestimating that number.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 48):
Once they do that and get rid of Bettman, the NHL would be a more prosperous league.

I have said it many times in these thread but I will say it again Bettman, Stern, Goodell and Selig are there to fulfill the wills the of the owners and if the owners like the job that they are doing they aren't going anywhere.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 48):
Oh yeah, and fixthe game back to the way it use to be back in the 80's when there was actual talent and scoring and not a bunch of testosterone driven blockheads making the game slow and very less appealing.

The game isn't the issue. It might be yours being of the age to really remember the golden age of hockey but a successful league has to attract the casual fans along with the die hard ones.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
If you're wanting to kick teams out of the league for spotty attendance, be sure you kick Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders out for their attendance problems. Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.

This isn't the 90's, all the Canadian teams can make money now, they could when they had to pay $1.50 in salaries to ever dollar earned because of the exchange rate then. It is now par and we are just crazy about hockey up here. Winnipeg just came back and there will be a second team in Toronto and one in Quebec before long.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
If you're wanting to kick teams out of the league for spotty attendance, be sure you kick Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders out for their attendance problems

So you want to kick out the 1st (Chicago), 8th (Vancouver), 11th (Pittsburgh) and 12th (Washington) teams in terms of attendance?   

Not to mention that those 4 teams fill 100% of their arena capacity...

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.

And why is that? It still makes more sense to have a team in Quebec City or anywhere in Canada than in Florida or Arizona (sorry PHX787). The fan base is here. When I see the mess in Phoenix, I can't see why it would be worse in QC!!



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5345 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.

I'm not sure you have much exposure to the jets. I like about two hours south of Winnipeg in Grand Forks, ND. Every weekend a ton of Canadians come south and shop down here. You wouldn't believe all the jets license plates, tire covers, apparel etc here on the weekends. I feel like I'm in Winnipeg. Not to mention tickets are a pain to get.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
I have said it many times in these thread but I will say it again Bettman, Stern, Goodell and Selig are there to fulfill the wills the of the owners and if the owners like the job that they are doing they aren't going anywhere.

I can see where you're coming from but Bettman has a few more issues under his belt than any of the other commissioners. 3 lockouts in what? 20 years. That's not a good track record of leadership. I was barely kicking in his first one and the second lock out is a blur so I can't talk much there. But for this one the players are for sure a part of the problem. But Bettman/owners aren't fixing the problem.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 51):
Huh? All those teams, except for the Islanders, have excellent attendance.
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):

PHX as well. Every game I went to at Jobing.com Arean last year was packed to the brim. There are some people really passionate about hockey. Although PHX and Columbus and some other teams have had issues in the past, there's no stopping fans from watching the sport they love. Hockey fans are probably the most enthusiastic of all sports fans, and that includes the Soccer hooligans and Football face-painters.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 54):
I can see where you're coming from but Bettman has a few more issues under his belt than any of the other commissioners. 3 lockouts in what? 20 years. That's not a good track record of leadership. I was barely kicking in his first one and the second lock out is a blur so I can't talk much there. But for this one the players are for sure a part of the problem. But Bettman/owners aren't fixing the problem.
Blue

A lockout is management (the owners) saying unless you abide by what we want we aren't letting you work and we will take the losses on no revenue coming in against not having to pay our players. The players didn't strike and walk out, which to be honest is what I think a lot people think and were willing to play under the last CBA while a new one was negotiated.

The owners are using this tactic to get the players to cave in and they probably will. Regarding Bettman and his leadership if he was pushing a compromise he probably would be fired. He isn't a leader, he is a well paid pawn who does the bidding of 29 very wealthy people or corporations (Phoenix doesn't count).



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 50):
Are not the problem. Go to a Preds game. Really go to one. They have some of the most passionate fans in the game. Tampa was 2nd in the league for average attendance for a few years after they won their Cup and only mediocrity and poor ownership caused those numbers to suffer. Likewise with Florida - when the team did well last season you saw a nice spike in attendance. Likewise Columbus has awful ownership and Phoenix - well, that's just a charlie foxtrot. If you're wanting to kick teams out of the league for spotty attendance, be sure you kick Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders out for their attendance problems. Oh, and relocate Winnipeg and make sure we never put a team in QC again.

I believe that eventually we will see the two Florida teams in QC and maybe Toronto as its second team, and the Islanders move to maybe Cleveland or somewhere in Atlantic Canada. BTW I will never pay to see a hockey game in the NHL.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5423 posts, RR: 52
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5296 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 51):

Huh? All those teams, except for the Islanders, have excellent attendance.

They do now. At various points in their history, however, not so much. Not too long ago, the Pens couldn't draw flies to Melon. The AHL Chicago Wolves outdrew the Blackhawks even though the Wolves had no affiliation with the 'Hawks. Seats were fairly easy to come by at Pacific Coliseum. And the same observers calling for the relocation/contraction of certain franchises now often fool themselves into the intellectual dishonesty that the teams that are now jewels in the League's crown never faced the same obstacles that some current teams do. The point I'm making is that location doesn't matter worth a tinker's damn - it's success on the ice (or at the very least knowing that you'll not see a lineup of scrub eery night get blown out), ownership that's not hostile towards their own fanbase, and a hockey operations staff that is at least somewhat competent.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

as for the current talks between NHL and players:

NHL is trying to postpone Quebec Labor Board meetings in Montreal tomorrow and Fri. If CBA mtngs continue, B.Daly intends on staying in NYC as per Darren Dreger
Owners and players will weave discussions around the NHL's Board mtng. Could go late again. If so, can a deal be more than a few days away? as per Darren Dreger
Both sides feel for the first time in the process the other side is prepared to deal. Hearing there were "gives" from both sides. as per Bob McKenzie



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 59):
NHL is trying to postpone Quebec Labor Board meetings in Montreal tomorrow and Fri. If CBA mtngs continue, B.Daly intends on staying in NYC as per Darren Dreger
Owners and players will weave discussions around the NHL's Board mtng. Could go late again. If so, can a deal be more than a few days away? as per Darren Dreger
Both sides feel for the first time in the process the other side is prepared to deal. Hearing there were "gives" from both sides. as per Bob McKenzie

We're almost there, we're almost there, I can feel it!  



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 60):
We're almost there, we're almost there, I can feel it!

that's what my wife said last night then i had to Bettman her and say sorry...  



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

According to Pierre LeBrun on Twitter: "Needless to say, today is a HUGE day. Either traction brings it to another level or it goes off the rails again. Pivotal day"

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 61):
that's what my wife said last night then i had to Bettman her and say sorry...

 



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 61):
that's what my wife said last night then i had to Bettman her and say sorry...

  

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 59):
Both sides feel for the first time in the process the other side is prepared to deal. Hearing there were "gives" from both sides. as per Bob McKenzie

Jeez it's about time something happens.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 58):
The point I'm making is that location doesn't matter worth a tinker's damn - it's success on the ice (or at the very least knowing that you'll not see a lineup of scrub eery night get blown out),

Then how do you rationalise the Toronto Maple Leafs ? Since they haven't really done anything on the ice since my balls started to drop, they should be relocated by your thinking, perhaps to a hockey hotbed like Jacksonville.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Latest tweet from LeBrun: "There was talk in BOG of possible NHL schedule IF there's a deal. One team exec said 60 games likely too much but 50-plus possible..."

Bettman to address the media in a couple of minutes.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

Ok, so Bettman's press conference was extremely short, to say the least. He just said he was happy with the ongoing talks and that he would take no questions.

Talks will resume shortly. Still no Bettman and Fehr involved.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

i read if a deal was signed on the weekend, training camps start the following Wednesday, season starts Dec. 20th and includes 56 games. Merry Christmas?


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Tweet from Thomas Roost, NHL scout in Europe:

"#NHL #lockout players in Europe get text messages from their NHL-headcoaches to get ready to return. Deal is on the horizon, yesssssss!"

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 67):
Merry Christmas?


  



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5235 times:

nice tweet! i wonder if Bettman will still hand over the cup to the winning captain?


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5423 posts, RR: 52
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 64):
Then how do you rationalise the Toronto Maple Leafs ?

They, along with the Habs, are the exception to the rule, I'd say. For one they have an incredible corporate ticket base (to the point where I often hear Leafs fans griping about never having been able to go to a game thanks to the business suit crowd). For another, though, it's the fact that they're the Toronto Maple Leafs and there's a certain magic attached to the name itself much like historic franchises like the Yankees, Red Sox, Steelers, Packers, and Bears. However, I'd venture that even the Leafs couldn't weather a prolonged (ie generational) ride in the basement. But not every team can be the Leafs - hell, even the Red Wings at one point in their semi-recent history had to draw fans in by raffling off cars after the game.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 69):
nice tweet!

Yes. Hopefully it's accurate. I would doubt that an NHL scout would tweet this without sources, though.

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 69):
i wonder if Bettman will still hand over the cup to the winning captain?

Bettman should actually resign right after an agreement is signed.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 71):
Bettman should actually resign right after an agreement is signed

right after he cashes his cheque. the previous winning team captain should hand over the cup, sort of like the Master
Green Jacket tradition.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 58):
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 70):
However, I'd venture that even the Leafs couldn't weather a prolonged (ie generational) ride in the basement.

In case you missed it, the Buds have not actually won anything since 1967. And, they basically have not been competitive in the past 20 or so years. Although they did finish ahead of the Habs last season.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 70):
But not every team can be the Leafs - hell, even the Red Wings at one point in their semi-recent history had to draw fans in by raffling off cars after the game.

Much of the Red Wings attendance woes in the late 80s/early 90s was more tied to Detroit's economic situation plus street crime.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 58):
The point I'm making is that location doesn't matter worth a tinker's damn - it's success on the ice (or at the very least knowing that you'll not see a lineup of scrub eery night get blown out), ownership that's not hostile towards their own fanbase, and a hockey operations staff that is at least somewhat competent.

  

The Atlanta Thrashers were a great example of this. They were putting together a pretty decent team during the years that Time-Warner owned the team and pieces were falling into place. When they sold the team to Atlanta Spirit, things looked good at first as the new owners really wanted to endear themselves with the fans. Then the 2004-2005 Lockout happened several months after they took over the team. A few weeks after that Lockout was over came the infamous Joe Jackson trade which set in motion the eventual demise of the Thrashers in Atlanta. The legal battles between the owners that went on for 5 years before finally being settled (Atlanta Spirit got Steve Belkin's stake in exchange for the monies he did not pay into the group during the legal battle.) and during that time, the other owners had to contribute more money than they were originally expected due to Steve Belkin not being required to contribute to capital calls during the legal battle. They had also hoped to only own the Thrashers for a short time and sell them to someone else that would have kept them in Atlanta but the legal battle with Belkin prevented that and by the time they got that settled, nobody wanted to buy the Thrashers and keep them here with Atlanta Spirit being their landlord.

Don Waddell should have never been GM as long as he was. Too many bad deals and draft picks that were utter flops (His best trade was the Heatley to Ottawa trade.) People joked that he must have had blackmail photos as in any other market, he would have long since been fired. I think that had Rick Dudley been made GM a season or two earlier (he had been hired as the assistant GM prior to the 2009-2010 season and promoted to GM after that season), Winnipeg may have remained without an NHL team.

Atlanta Spirit burned some bridges with the fans after raising ticket prices after a season in which they missed the playoffs after making them the season before. That's when the fans started to turn and for many, the final straw was when Kovalchuk was traded to New Jersey (I liked the deal, as I knew he wasn't going to re-sign here and he definitely knew before the fans that the team wasn't long for Atlanta.).

There's a little of bitterness and resentment amongst a segment of hockey fans in Atlanta. I haven't attended a hockey game since the next to last Thrashers home game (It was a somber game [as was the very last game] as fans pretty much were resigned to the fact that it was quite likely the end. I remember going to the radio post-game show and being one of about a half dozen folks there and I was the only one to stay the entire post-game show, for which I was thanked by the hosts.). That is also the last time I set foot inside of Philips Arena and I will not set foot in that arena until the current operators of the venue are gone.

Atlanta really was a hockey town at one point. There were occasions in which the Thrashers and the Gwinnett Gladiators of the ECHL would bot have home games and their respective arenas would be close to sold out. We're talking close to 30,000 people watching hockey in Atlanta at the same time. The Gladiators are in their 10th season in the ECHL and have a very stable ownership group as well as front office and coaching staff.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 68):
"#NHL #lockout players in Europe get text messages from their NHL-headcoaches to get ready to return. Deal is on the horizon, yesssssss!"

FINALLY something to smile about!!!!!   

About ready to get my Habs and Yotes gear together  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5201 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Well all the NHL media folks I follow were talking all night like they were about to sign the papers. Apparently not so much. They're going to meet again tomorrow. Though it does sound promising.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 76):
Well all the NHL media folks I follow were talking all night like they were about to sign the papers. Apparently not so much. They're going to meet again tomorrow. Though it does sound promising.

Friend of mine said something should be reached by friday.....hopefully this doesn't end up being like the AI debacle



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5194 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 77):
Friend of mine said something should be reached by friday.....hopefully this doesn't end up being like the AI debacle

Well it sounds like they are bringing Bettman and Fehr back today. Can't wait to hear how they destroyed everything accomplished yesterday.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5164 times:

Fehr just declared that apart from transition issues, both parties have a full agreement on dollars.

Tweet from LeBrun: "Fehr feels both sides should be able to reach a deal given what players have come back with. Feels there's a complete agreement on "dollars""

Are we getting close to a season start?

[Edited 2012-12-06 16:04:00]


"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5155 times:

Ok, forget it, the NHL declined the offer - once more.

This is getting ridiculous for real.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5153 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Bettman and Fehr should go pound sand. They sounded like they had such momentum last night and then they managed to cram their egos in the room and screw it up. I'm giving up on the NHL. Thank God I have my Fighting Sioux to cheer for.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5149 times:

I think it's time to blow up the NHL and start a new league. I'm sure some of the Russian billionaires that own teams in the KHL would be willing to help bankroll it......

In the last two decades, there has been four work stoppages, with the 1992 Player's Strike being the shortest one, lasting a total of 10 days right at the end of the season. That strike is what led to Gary Bettman being brought in Commissioner, which replaced the position of NHL President. When Bettman was hired one of the tasks the owners handed him was maintaining labor peace, which he has failed at miserably. Regardless of the outcome of this lockout, the owners need to show him and deputy commissioner Bill Daly the door. Betmann was from the NBA and probably knew little about hockey when they hired him, presumably because of him working for NBA Commissioner David Stern.

It's time to put a hockey person in charge of the NHL. Find an ex-GM, coach or well-regarded player and have them run the league. Why not promote Shanny to Commissioner?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5143 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 80):
Ok, forget it, the NHL declined the offer - once more.
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 81):
Bettman and Fehr should go pound sand. They sounded like they had such momentum last night and then they managed to cram their egos in the room and screw it up. I'm giving up on the NHL. Thank God I have my Fighting Sioux to cheer for.

                    
COME ON!!!!!!!!

This is outrageous!!!! Bettman needs to go ruin the NBA because we don't need him screwing my favorite sport over even more!!!!

Quoting srbmod (Reply 82):
I think it's time to blow up the NHL and start a new league. I'm sure some of the Russian billionaires that own teams in the KHL would be willing to help bankroll it......

I completely agree, even if it is run by the russian mob. This would be the best solution at this time.

God I hate Bettman now   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineFlyKev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5143 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I live in the hope that when I check NHL.com in the morning as I get up somehow magically everything has been sorted; but as the days go on my expectations of seeing any movement in this matter are diminishing fast.
Its a battle of greed, egos and power and at the end of the day only us the fans lose. We complain now about how we hate the league, the owners, the players and we will not watch any future games but deep down half of us know most of us will return after it is fixed.

Im just hoping now for a 2013/14 season.

Kev.



The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

Ron Burkle: "I believe a deal was within reach. I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."

They were this close to a deal and they all blew it up      



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 81):
They sounded like they had such momentum last night and then they managed to cram their egos in the room and screw it up.

They never should have let Bettman and Fehr back in the room...

Quoting srbmod (Reply 82):
It's time to put a hockey person in charge of the NHL. Find an ex-GM, coach or well-regarded player and have them run the league. Why not promote Shanny to Commissioner?

No disrespect srbmod, but you're way off the mark here. As I try to mention as often as possible, the NHL is a business. The NHL (and every pro sports league for that matter) needs someone who will run the league with their head, not their heart. I'm a fan of Shanny cause the guy has a head on his shoulders, but at the end of the day, he's not a businessman. Further to that, I would have zero confidence in putting a former union member at the helm of management. Frankly, based on what I've seen go on the past few months, most players aren't smart enough to run a poutinerie, let alone a multi-billion dollar business.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5133 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 86):
They never should have let Bettman and Fehr back in the room...

Amazing they could physically enter the room once they're egos had preceded them.         

If only someone could channel Clarence Campbell. Old school, for sure, but could deal with both the owners and the players.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

i've only read what happened last night, but i would like to see the video of Bettman being "livid". Anybody got a link?


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 88):
Anybody got a link?

RDS posted the video on their website: http://www.rds.ca/zone-video/#cat=122&videoID=116995

And the journalists' questions:

http://www.rds.ca/zone-video/#cat=122&videoID=116997
http://www.rds.ca/zone-video/#cat=122&videoID=116996
http://www.rds.ca/zone-video/#cat=122&videoID=116998



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

Thanks for that !!


It baffels my mind.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 86):
No disrespect srbmod, but you're way off the mark here. As I try to mention as often as possible, the NHL is a business.

A business that under its' current leadership is a disappointment. The NHL continues to alienate their fan base with work stoppages that Bettman was tasked with avoiding when he was brought on board as the commission 19 years ago. Three lockouts during his tenure is three too many and while some of this can be laid at the feet of the NHLPA, the league and its' owners are also part of the blame. Remember a few seasons back they had to reopen the CBA in order to address some contracts that appeared to be structured so to circumvent the salary cap hit a team would take on a player.

Gary Bettman has consistently failed to act in the best interest of the NHL as well as the fans and it's time for him to hit the bricks. He actually makes Bud Selig look like Pete Rozelle.......

An ex-player that has also spent time in the management and/or ownership ranks would be the ideal person to be commissioner. They've seen things on both sides of the coin and can use their experiences on both sides to do what is best for all sides. I know that to some there may the be perception of such a Commissioner being a puppet for the players (As opposed to one for the owners like it is in baseball....), but at the end of the day that may be what the NHL needs to do once this lockout is over to curry favor with the fans. There will be those fans that may chose to boycott the NHL entirely until Bettman is gone.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5086 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 91):
Gary Bettman has consistently failed to act in the best interest of the NHL as well as the fans and it's time for him to hit the bricks. He actually makes Bud Selig look like Pete Rozelle.......

Problem is, he practically owns the NHL....can anyone actually remove him?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 91):
An ex-player that has also spent time in the management and/or ownership ranks would be the ideal person to be commissioner

Do u know of anyone who would be able to fill such a role today?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5083 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 89):
RDS posted the video on their website:

Bettman looks to be the definitive "dick with ears"! 



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
Do u know of anyone who would be able to fill such a role today?

Someone like current NHL VP of Hockey and Business Development Brendan Shanahan comes to mind immediately. During the last lockout while still a player, he actually put together a conference in which a number of players, coaches and other influential hockey folks got together to discuss ways to improve the flow and tempo of the game. Some of the recommendations were sent to the NHLPA and the NHL and some of those ideas have been implemented into the NHL.

http://www.foxsportswest.com/06/08/1...an-Su/landing.html?blockID=249423&

He seems to be someone that can work with all sides and get them to work together for the good of the game. He has ruffled a few feathers since replacing Colin Campbell as the NHL's chief disciplinarian, but the fact that he has gone to the lengths to actually record his decision and give an explanation on why the play did or did not violate NHL rules actually removes some of the mystery behind player discipline and suspensions. Such transparency from the front office of a major sports league is unprecedented and perhaps the entire NHL front office needs such transparency.


User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

LeBrun still thinks a deal is possible: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...res-why-were-still-close-to-a-deal

I also agree with his last paragraph:

Quote:
What the players have to figure out for themselves is whether waiting this out longer will help them get more. There’s no question the patience that Fehr has preached to his membership has paid off, the best example being the owners moving from $211 million to $300 million in make-whole. But at some point you have to know when you’ve played this out long enough. I believe that time has come. If I’m a player, I push hard to get back to the table next week and work with the league on its last offer. If the players do that, this lockout ends.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 93):
Bettman looks to be the definitive "dick with ears"!

 bigthumbsup 

[Edited 2012-12-07 15:16:18]


"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 91):
The NHL continues to alienate their fan base

Yet revenues are at record levels?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 91):
Gary Bettman has consistently failed to act in the best interest of the NHL as well as the fans

No question that he hasn't acted in the best interest of the fans...but he has certainly acted in the best interest of the NHL. The NHL is a business, and is doing all he can to make that business as profitable as possible.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 94):
Someone like current NHL VP of Hockey and Business Development Brendan Shanahan comes to mind immediately.

Again, Shanahan isn't a businessman, he's a hockey player. The only reason he holds an executive position in the league is because his only responsibilities in that position are related to what happens on the ice. All the examples you give have to do things he's done for the game, not the business.

The NHL is a business, and needs someone with business experience to run it.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
can anyone actually remove him?

The owners could have his office emptied tomorrow if they really wanted.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
Yet revenues are at record levels?

How much cash has the NHL made this season so far, EXCLUDING merchandise??

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
...but he has certainly acted in the best interest of the NHL.

I disagree. Locking the players out is not the answer. They are making NO money right now. No games played = no revenue being generated. Not only that hurts the NHL and the players, it hurts the local economies that do have the NHL in their towns. So, no, Bettman is actually hurting the NHL more than helping it. By locking out the players, his actions are not showing that he is doing "the best interest of the NHL". Fact.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
The NHL is a business, and needs someone with business experience to run it.

When a business alienate their consumers, it declines as a business until there isn't one anymore. This is more than just the NHL and its players. It has to do, again, with the fan base and the economy for each team's respective city. Again, how much money, excluding merchandise, has the NHL made this season? Zero.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
The owners could have his office emptied tomorrow if they really wanted.

They should have done that long ago. Why they have not done it now is beyond me. The lockout as a whole is really silly, the players should have not been locked out to begin with. They can play while a contract is being negotiated.

I have more respect for MLB than NHL and NFL combined. The last time MLB players walked out or were locked out was 1994. They avoided a lock out last year or the year before to avoid being burned later, which was wise. MLB seems to have more class at the moment......



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5048 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
How much cash has the NHL made this season so far, EXCLUDING merchandise??
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
Again, how much money, excluding merchandise, has the NHL made this season? Zero.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
They are making NO money right now. No games played = no revenue being generated.

You think that the NHL only makes money from game and merchandise revenue?

For starters, merchandise isn't actually controlled by the NHL. They license the NHL and team brands out to manufacturers/distributors who pay a fixed and/or unit fee to the league for its use. Now with that said, merchandise is only a component of licensing revenue. Probably the most lucrative form of licensing for the league is through NHL video games, which are still selling quite well despite the lockout, therefore pocketing the league some nice revenue. Another major form of licensing revenue include media licensing (NHL Network, team channels, purchasing rights to show old games, etc.).

There are other forms of ongoing revenue for the league, but they are too small to be worth mentioning.

Fact of the matter is: the NHL is still making money.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
it hurts the local economies that do have the NHL in their towns

I feel for the little guys that are being hurt in NHL towns, but Bettman and Fehr (**note that I include Donald Fehr**) shouldn't even consider them when negotiating the CBA because they are not a party to it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
"the best interest of the NHL". Fact.

Alright, let's talk facts:

The NHL is a business. Fact.
Under Bettman, the NHL's revenue has increased 750%. Fact.
If Bettman gave in to Fehr's original demands, then NHL would lose hundreds of millions, if not billions, in revenue. Fact.

Facts are based on quantifiable, provable points, not opinions.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
the players should have not been locked out to begin with. They can play while a contract is being negotiated

The player's shouldn't be unionized to begin with. The only contracts should be between the players and their teams. I do agree that they should have continued to play during negotiations, but I don't discount the possibility that the league was preempting a player strike.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
I have more respect for MLB than NHL and NFL combined. The last time MLB players walked out or were locked out was 1994. They avoided a lock out last year or the year before to avoid being burned later, which was wise. MLB seems to have more class at the moment......

I'll admit I don't know much about the MLB. I'm not a big baseball fan. But with that said, I know quite a bit about contract negotiations, and I strongly suspect that when you're dealing with a CBA in which a salary cap is included, it's a whole different monster altogether.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

I wish the host cities and states of these NHL teams, who may be losing millions a week in income, sales and corporate tax revenues and may have give up many millions in tax subsidies for the arenas the teams play in would be at the negotiation table. The taxpayers should not have to subsidise sports teams anyway.

Clearly the players want the 'cut' of revenues of the old contract or not less than 52-53%, the owners want to cut that to less than 50% - much like that issues with the NBA in their recent CBA. Some NHL teams have serious financial problems, especially those in small markets and too few high end/corporate fans to support them (like Buffalo). Any deal must work that out with revenue sharing of big market teams to small market teams, perhaps ditch some too financially weak teams (about 2-4). Any deal must work out preventing stupid overpaying by owners for too few good players.

If this strike continues much longer, the NHL might as well go out of business. Then we all lose.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 98):
There are other forms of ongoing revenue for the league, but they are too small to be worth mentioning.

Please, enlighten me. I'm dying to know.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 98):
The NHL is a business.

We already established that. But how is Bettman doing the best interest of the NHL helping the each citys economy?? It isn't. Cities are losing money in tax revenues and the local businesses are also losing money as well. What are you going to do if your favorite restaurant near the arena went out of business because of the lockout, for starters, along with many others going out of business too? Businesses rely on the NHL, NBA, MLB and NFL to keep their businesses running. FACT. That is one thing you are missing, WestJet747.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
I wish the host cities and states of these NHL teams, who may be losing millions a week in income, sales and corporate tax revenues and may have give up many millions in tax subsidies for the arenas the teams play in would be at the negotiation table.

   Agreed. To add to that, the cities should have the right to sue. This has gone on way too long now, it is pathetic.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
If this strike continues much longer, the NHL might as well go out of business. Then we all lose.

I agree completely.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
The taxpayers should not have to subsidise sports teams anyway.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
perhaps ditch some too financially weak teams (about 2-4)
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
Any deal must work out preventing stupid overpaying by owners for too few good players.

   Agreed on all points.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
If this strike continues much longer, the NHL might as well go out of business.

A cash-rich entity such as the NHL can quite easily last the entire season without a game played. Only if it stretches into next season will they start to sweat.

The unique thing about professional sports is that even though there are highly substitutable operating within the same sphere, brand loyalty remains rock hard. Sure, Tom, Dick, and Harry are bitching on the daily about how this is ruining hockey for them and that it will never be same...but honestly, they'll be back.

The 2004-2005 lockout is an exemplary example. Everybody back then had the exact same gripes as we do in this very thread. They went an entire season with no hockey...and what happened during the first week of games the next season after they reached a deal? The seats were packed and everybody was wetting themselves like a sick dog with excitement.

Bettman knows this, and it's precisely why he feels so free to play hardball with the NHLPA.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
I wish the host cities and states of these NHL teams, who may be losing millions a week in income, sales and corporate tax revenues and may have give up many millions in tax subsidies for the arenas the teams play in would be at the negotiation table.

As I mentioned in the post to AirframeAS: The cities are not a party to the CBA, therefore they have no right to be included in the negotiations. The best they can do is write really angry letters to the owners (which I'm sure they already have).

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 100):
What are you going to do if your favorite restaurant near the arena went out of business because of the lockout, for starters, along with many others going out of business too? Businesses rely on the NHL, NBA, MLB and NFL to keep their businesses running. FACT. That is one thing you are missing, WestJet747.

This is so detached from the core issue that I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing it. But I love economics, so if you, or anyone else, can show me some legitimate proof that establishments/venues are going out of business because of two months without hockey, then I'll continue to discuss it with you.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 100):
the cities should have the right to sue

Sue for what exactly? Unless it is explicitly stated in a contract that the NHL owes games to a city, then they have no legs to stand on legally. As far as I know, no such clause exists because the risk falls on the owners. So with that said, the city might me able to sue the owners, but they certainly can't touch the league or Bettman.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
Problem is, he practically owns the NHL....can anyone actually remove him?

The owners can but they want this so they love him right now.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
No question that he hasn't acted in the best interest of the fans...but he has certainly acted in the best interest of the NHL. The NHL is a business, and is doing all he can to make that business as profitable as possible.

  

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97):
I disagree. Locking the players out is not the answer. They are making NO money right now. No games played = no revenue being generated. Not only that hurts the NHL and the players, it hurts the local economies that do have the NHL in their towns. So, no, Bettman is actually hurting the NHL more than helping it. By locking out the players, his actions are not showing that he is doing "the best interest of the NHL". Fact.

In all the pro-sports today most ownership in among many groups which have revenue coming in anyways and they feel that this is the way that they can make the most money in the next 5-10 years. Furthermore these ownership groups don't care one bit about the economy of their cities if the can squeeze

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 98):
The player's shouldn't be unionized to begin with. The only contracts should be between the players and their teams. I do agree that they should have continued to play during negotiations, but I don't discount the possibility that the league was preempting a player strike.

The biggest reason that North American pro sports are unionized is to protect players being abused by owners and coaches forcing play when they are injured or cutting them when they get hurt. I agree that in this case it shouldn't have any obligations for contracts or whether or not teams should fold.

You are contributing in my thread about Concussions. The reasons that pro-sports have unions is to protect against players being thrown on the street when it happens to them. I would argue that is all they have to protect on, with the amount of money they make those provisions are all they need and let them be paid what the market will demand.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 101):
This is so detached from the core issue that I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing it. But I love economics, so if you, or anyone else, can show me some legitimate proof that establishments/venues are going out of business because of two months without hockey, then I'll continue to discuss it with you.

There have been reports that in Toronto a lot of bars and restaurants near the ACC are reporting lower than normal revenues than previous years especially on Saturday nights. If people are going to go to a game it is very likely that they might want a meal or drink afterwards. These guys might not be going under but they might be reducing the amount of staff they have on or reducing hours, with less staff on hand or reduced hours they make they will spend less.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5014 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 98):

The player's shouldn't be unionized to begin with. The only contracts should be between the players and their teams. I do agree that they should have continued to play during negotiations, but I don't discount the possibility that the league was preempting a player strike.

If it wasn't for the NHLPA, the NHL would likely still have the "reserve clause" which essentially meant that the team that drafted you "owned" you as when your contract was up, you couldn't sign with another team and the only way to play for another team in the NHL was to be traded to it. The first attempt at a players' union in the NHL during the 57-58 season was easily quashed because there were only 6 teams in the league and the owners were pretty strong. One of the players behind the organizing effort was Ted Lindsey who played for the Red Wings. He found himself stripped of his C and traded to the Blackhawks in order to stop the union organizing effort (The Maple Leafs players unanimously supported the union and the Red Wings were the next time to vote so by trading Lindsey, that killed the NHLPA's first attempt.).

The second attempt (and the successful attempt) to establish the NHLPA came just before the NHL expanded to 12 teams. The organizers told the team owners to either recognize the group or they would seek recognition from the Canadian Labour Relations Board. I'm sure that the owners also realized that with the NHL about to double in size that it would be harder to stop the creation of the NHLPA once the 6 new teams were officially part of the NHL.

One thing to note is that not once during the time Alan Eagleson served as executive director of the NHLPA (1967-1991) did the players ever go on strike or get locked out (Probably because he knew that any labor actions that occurred would mean less money for him....). Then again, Eagleson during the 1980s had a pretty cozy relationship with NHL President John Ziegler and Blackhawks owner Bill Wirtz so there were probably a lot of back room deals to keep all sides happy.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
I wish the host cities and states of these NHL teams, who may be losing millions a week in income, sales and corporate tax revenues and may have give up many millions in tax subsidies for the arenas the teams play in would be at the negotiation table

Some NHL cities probably don't give a damn about no hockey despite the economic hits (Here in Atlanta, the Mayor of Atlanta as well as the Governor Of Georgia refused to step in and try to keep the Thrashers here in Atlanta even though it would mean an economic as well as job hit for the city. They stated that it was a private business matter that did not concern state and local government; meanwhile they're both kissing Arthur Blank's backside in regards to building a new stadium for the Falcons.). Heck some team owners may actually make money or loss a lot less money as the result of no NHL season. It does hurt towns in which their NHL team is their only wintertime pro team and while some Canadian markets do have junior teams that also play in their arenas, that doesn't help cover operating costs.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 102):
The biggest reason that North American pro sports are unionized is to protect players being abused by owners and coaches forcing play when they are injured or cutting them when they get hurt. I agree that in this case it shouldn't have any obligations for contracts or whether or not teams should fold.

You are contributing in my thread about Concussions. The reasons that pro-sports have unions is to protect against players being thrown on the street when it happens to them. I would argue that is all they have to protect on, with the amount of money they make those provisions are all they need and let them be paid what the market will demand.
Quoting srbmod (Reply 103):
If it wasn't for the NHLPA

I'm not disputing what either of you are saying. I know that unions were put in place in every pro sport in order to protect the players, and they did a real good job of it. But if we get real here for a moment, the NHLPA of the 21st century is not the NHLPA of the 1960's. The protections they so fought for 50 years ago have been cemented, and the union's focus has since shifted to squeezing pennies from the owners. Unions in North America are really good at pumping a sense of self-entitlement into their membership, and millionaire membership of the NHLPA is no exception.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 102):
These guys might not be going under but they might be reducing the amount of staff they have on or reducing hours, with less staff on hand or reduced hours they make they will spend less.

That's exactly my point. If a bar is going bankrupt from a few months of no hockey, they're probably a poorly managed bar in the first place.

I see from your profile that you live in or around the GTA, so I bet you're familiar with Real Sports Bar down on York St? On game nights you aren't getting in unless you reserve a table a day or so in advance. But despite the lockout, they're still insanely busy because management knows how to create an atmosphere that welcomes more than just sports fans, and draw out more Raptors and Argos fans to make up for the loss of Leafs fans.

I realize that not every sports bar has the luxury of a prime location like RS does, but my point remains about effective management.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 104):
You know what? You sound like Bettman. Maybe you should go work for him.

I prefer to think of myself as someone who sounds like they know a thing or two about how real business works.

But anyway, I wish I worked for Bettman. I'd probably have my student debt paid off by now if I did!



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 102):
If people are going to go to a game it is very likely that they might want a meal or drink afterwards. These guys might not be going under but they might be reducing the amount of staff they have on or reducing hours, with less staff on hand or reduced hours they make they will spend less.

That is exactly what I meant in terms of the economy would dip in each city when the NHL, the NBA, the MLB and the NFL not playing.

But no, as WestJet747 says, the NHL "doesn't care about the economy."



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5003 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 105):
The protections they so fought for 50 years ago have been cemented, and the union's focus has since shifted to squeezing pennies from the owners.

Indeed, but I can't help but go back to the fact that each one of those union contracts was signed by the league (i.e. the union of the owners) and each of those player contracts were signed by an owner subject to league approval.

I'm having a hard time grasping the owner's strategy. They chose to do the lockout. I presume they thought that the players would cave in after going a few weeks without their huge salaries, but there's no evidence of that being the case. Many are playing on the cheap in Europe to keep the cash flow going, which should have been no surprise to the owners. The next thing to do would have been to bring in non-union players, but that didn't happen. Clearly the owners still have costs (management employees, scouts, farm teams, etc) and broken contracts to deal with, and no income. They seem to be totally adrift. I would think that Buttman has some explaining to do, or should be out on his bett err butt.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 99):
Some NHL teams have serious financial problems, especially those in small markets and too few high end/corporate fans to support them (like Buffalo).

Forbes recently estimating that Winnipeg (smallest city, smallest arena) netted about $13M on revenue of around $105-110M. Depends on marketing.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 103):
If it wasn't for the NHLPA, the NHL would likely still have the "reserve clause" which essentially meant that the team that drafted you "owned" you as when your contract was up, you couldn't sign with another team and the only way to play for another team in the NHL was to be traded to it.

One could also argue that the reserve clause was broken when Bobby Hull started playing for the Jets (1.0) in the WHA in 1972-73. IIRC he had to wait about 13-14 games until the court case was settled. Actually wearing a WHA Jets tee right now, with original 72-73 logo (only 1 year). No pants mind you.  



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 106):
But no, as WestJet747 says, the NHL "doesn't care about the economy."

I never said that. I said that the economy plays no part in the CBA negotiations, nor should it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 106):
I'm having a hard time grasping the owner's strategy. They chose to do the lockout. I presume they thought that the players would cave in after going a few weeks without their huge salaries, but there's no evidence of that being the case.

I think you're pretty on point there. The owners must have believed the players would cave within a month, or else I don't think they would have taken this route.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 107):
Forbes recently estimating that Winnipeg (smallest city, smallest arena) netted about $13M on revenue of around $105-110M. Depends on marketing.

Marketing is definitely part of it, but we have to keep in mind that Winnipeg is still in the honeymood period. We'll see what those numbers look like 5 years in, that would be a better indicator.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 107):
No pants mind you.

We aren't fancy here  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 107):
No pants mind you.

We didn't need to know that! 



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4933 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
Hopefully they can get something together to salvage the season. Both sides are being incredibly childish and greedy. Somebody should have taught them to share when they were little. I wash hoping to go to a Rangers game in December. Even if they do fix it I'm not sure I want to give my money to a league that has no interests in keeping their fans happy.
Blue

Obviously they have no interest in keeping their fans happy or they would be playing hockey.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 107):
I'm having a hard time grasping the owner's strategy. They chose to do the lockout. I presume they thought that the players would cave in after going a few weeks without their huge salaries, but there's no evidence of that being the case.

The real problem is that the NHL has no multi-year billion dollar National US network contract like the other sports to bring in the money for the player salaries. They rely heavily on gate receipts, thus the price to see the crap they put on the ice is so high.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
Problem is, he practically owns the NHL....can anyone actually remove him?

The owners love him. He is responsible for the NHL getting into markets that are not traditional hockey markets such as Atlanta, Nashville, and Phoenix.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 96):
Yet revenues are at record levels?

For some teams. Mainly the ones in Canada. Ask the people in Tampa and Miami, maybe Phoenix and Long Island. Although, did I not hear that the Islanders will be moving to Brooklyn to play in the Barclay's Center?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 109):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 107):
No pants mind you.

We didn't need to know that! 

Who wears pants? I am not as well, am in my shorts.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4928 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 110):
The owners love him. He is responsible for the NHL getting into markets that are not traditional hockey markets such as Atlanta, Nashville, and Phoenix.

Yet they almost pulled out of PHX and they left ATL   Not saying I'm not grateful for my Yotes, it's just that it's not maintained well.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 110):
Obviously they have no interest in keeping their fans happy or they would be playing hockey.

Then we should send the NHL a statement and not come back when this gets settled. The owners know the fans will so they can stop the game for more than a season if they like.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 110):
The real problem is that the NHL has no multi-year billion dollar National US network contract like the other sports to bring in the money for the player salaries. They rely heavily on gate receipts, thus the price to see the crap they put on the ice is so high.

They did get a new deal with NBC, its not worth billions but its not a big TV sport compared to the other sports its competes against.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 110):
The owners love him. He is responsible for the NHL getting into markets that are not traditional hockey markets such as Atlanta, Nashville, and Phoenix.

The owners better love him, he represents them.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4914 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 110):
The real problem is that the NHL has no multi-year billion dollar National US network contract like the other sports to bring in the money for the player salaries. They rely heavily on gate receipts, thus the price to see the crap they put on the ice is so high.

They do have a multi-year contract with NBC that, while not on the same level as the NFL, obviously, is not nothing.

What is interesting to me is that some of the league corporate sponsors, such as Molson's, are now starting to ask for their money back for this year. Possibly also revisiting their relationship with the NHL going forward.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

NHL cancels games through to December 30th, Merry Christmas


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 114):
NHL cancels games through to December 30th, Merry Christmas

Did you find an article for that?

Here's some interesting reads:
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/..._lockout_update_gary_bettma_3.html
http://www.masslive.com/bruins/index...latest_impasse_columnist_says.html

Looks like the owners are to blame for the latest negotiation failures.   

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...t-boycott-vent-181440309--nhl.html
Fans want hockey, but also want to boycott hockey....

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...t-your-daily-hockey-fix-for-day-86
Jets player Ron Hainsey is in the hot seat right now:

Quote:
I stress I've never heard it on- or off-the-record from any owner, general manager or negotiator -- but there is a rumbling going around that Hainsey will never again get an NHL contract. (He is an unrestricted free agent next summer.)

When I brought it up to him on Friday morning, he nodded in anticipation of the question. Clearly, he's heard the rumours.

"Do you worry that, after your contract is completed, you'll never play in the NHL again?"

"My wife and I have talked about it," he said. "If I play the way I'm capable of, everything will work out."



Apparently because of his views on the contract negotiations....anyone got more info on his opinions? I don't follow the Jets well. For all I know, the "Jets" are the team that moved here to PHX in 1995   hahaha



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
Jets player Ron Hainsey is in the hot seat right now:

Tell ya' something: here's a guy who's pulling $5.5M every year and had NO goals last year, I think maybe 7 or 8 assists. Talk about egregious. On the ice, a boat anchor.

Maybe he's a good spokesperson for the NHLPA, fine, go get a job with them, just get off the ice. Make some cap room.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
Did you find an article for that?

sorry, forgot to type "expect the...." got that from a few tweets this morning.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 114):
NHL cancels games through to December 30th, Merry Christmas

Not surprising. They previously cancelled up to the 14th, so unless they find an agreement today, the season is not likely to start before early January.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=647344&cmpid=fb

here it is.....



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 117):
sorry, forgot to type "expect the...." got that from a few tweets this morning.
Quoting yooyoo (Reply 119):
here it is.....

And the media world remains quiet about this   Sad to see how poor coverage this is getting. Who gives a damn about basketball at this stage  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

The Declaration of Independance was written and adopted in less than a month; CBA negotiations approaching 3 months - just saying

another tweet the Stats Guy.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

I can't blame the guy, as where would you rather be playing your home games at in the middle of winter, Atlanta or Winnipeg?    Some of the Jets players were not happy about the relocation and perhaps he's one of them (I know Chris Thorburn was pretty critical of the sale and relocation at the time and in the days and weeks prior to the sale he and Eric Boulton were making public appearances as Thrashers players while knowing that the team was about to be sold and relocated.).

With games cancelled through the end of the year, I just don't see a season happening if a deal isn't reached within the next month. While the 1994-95 Lockout ended in early January, the 48 game season extended into early May, which is usually when the playoffs are in full swing. At that time, there were only 26 teams in the NHL as opposed to 30 teams now. That season teams only played within their conference. The best option would probably be to play a 36 game season. All teams would play within their conference and would play 4 games within their division (2 home, 2 away) and 2 games against teams in the other two divisions (1 home, 1 away). Anything beyond that may prove tricky to schedule it so that all teams have an even split between home and away games.

One thing to note is that if the 2012-13 NHL season is cancelled, the Stanley Cup could potentially be awarded, as there was a lawsuit by some Canadian rec-league players during the last lockout that resulted in the Trustees of the Stanley Cup being given the option to award the Cup in the event the NHL were to cancel a season.

http://web.archive.org/web/200712160...nhl/news_story/?ID=153935&hubname=


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
anyone got more info on his opinions?

This article is the best I could find that discusses Hainsey's positions and controversies: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...on-hainsey-the-nhlpas-bad-cop.html

Every union has a Ron Hainsey. If he never plays it again, it won't be because of his outspokenness, it will be this:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 116):
here's a guy who's pulling $5.5M every year and had NO goals last year, I think maybe 7 or 8 assists. Talk about egregious. On the ice, a boat anchor.

  



Flying refined.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 116):

Tell ya' something: here's a guy who's pulling $5.5M every year and had NO goals last year, I think maybe 7 or 8 assists. Talk about egregious. On the ice, a boat anchor.

Since when are blueliners not named Dustin Byfuglien expected to score a decent number of goals? His assist numbers have been in decline the last several seasons (33 in 08-09, 21 in 09-10, 16 in 10-11 and 10 last season). You can thank Don Waddell for that contract.

He's done as an NHLer regardless as he's become a pylon in recent years (as I witnessed first hand the three seasons he was here in Atlanta). He's chirping as he knows that at his age there's not many opportunities left for him and he may end up in Europe for a couple a years before finally hanging up his skates.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 112):
Then we should send the NHL a statement and not come back when this gets settled. The owners know the fans will so they can stop the game for more than a season if they like.

I agree. I have not gone to an NHL game since the last lockout. I would suggest though you have to convince the idiots who support the Maple Leafs to not go, then you will have a boycott, but I bet you, when the NHL gets back to playing hockey, you won't find a seat at the ACC for a Leaf game.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 112):
They did get a new deal with NBC, its not worth billions but its not a big TV sport compared to the other sports its competes against.

Yeah. Have you seen that deal? They show the games on OLN in the States and on Sunday afternoons in only after the All Star Game. Then, comes the play offs, they start to show meaningful games. They only pay the NHL if the ratings are at a certain level.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 116):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
Jets player Ron Hainsey is in the hot seat right now:

Tell ya' something: here's a guy who's pulling $5.5M every year and had NO goals last year, I think maybe 7 or 8 assists. Talk about egregious. On the ice, a boat anchor.

He is a defense man. I don't want my defense man scoring goals when I need him on the point to manage the power play.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 125):
Yeah. Have you seen that deal? They show the games on OLN in the States and on Sunday afternoons in only after the All Star Game. Then, comes the play offs, they start to show meaningful games. They only pay the NHL if the ratings are at a certain level.

OLN? They dropped that name prior to the 2006-07 NHL season and renamed the channel Versus. In the wake of the network's owner Comcast taking over NBCUniversal, the channel was renamed NBC Sports Network at the beginning of this year. They've really improved the channel this year as part of the renaming and rebranding and they are the broadcast network in the US for the NHL for years to come. I wish that they would have more NHL games on the broadcast channel, but historically US broadcast networks have not starting showing NHL games until after the NFL season. NBC is one of the broadcast networks with NFL contracts and until the NFL regular season is over, they cannot show NHL games on Sunday afternoons during the NFL regular season since it would be counterprogramming against the NFL games on Fox and CBS. The new TV deal between NBC Sports and the NHL is a pretty expensive one for NBC Sports, as they will be paying close to $200 million a year for 10 years which is about triple the previous contract. When NBC got the NHL broadcast rights, the original deal was a revenue sharing deal in which the network and the NHL split the ad revenues.

For a number of years, no US broadcast network aired the NHL as it did not garner high ratings and no network (This was the days when it was still just ABC, NBC and CBS.) and in the early 90s, NBC did pickup the NHL All-Star after the game was moved to a more TV sports friendly Sunday afternoon (but even then, not all of their affiliates showed the game the first few years they aired it). Within a few years, ABC was picking up a few games via ESPN and then Fox picked up the NHL for five seasons before ABC took over and NBC got the contract after ABC lowballed the NHL on a new deal.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4849 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 121):
The Declaration of Independance was written and adopted in less than a month; CBA negotiations approaching 3 months - just saying

This is taking forever.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 122):
With games cancelled through the end of the year, I just don't see a season happening if a deal isn't reached within the next month.

Yeah agreed. I'm not expecting much at all.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 123):
Every union has a Ron Hainsey. If he never plays it again, it won't be because of his outspokenness, it will be this:

Is he to blame for some of the indecisiveness?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 121):
The Declaration of Independance was written and adopted in less than a month; CBA negotiations approaching 3 months - just saying

Those guys probably negotiated day and night until they got a deal.

The NHL clearly isn't doing this and trying to stiff arm their leverage for a good few weeks before negotiations began and there were none before the current CBA expired.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 125):
I agree. I have not gone to an NHL game since the last lockout. I would suggest though you have to convince the idiots who support the Maple Leafs to not go, then you will have a boycott, but I bet you, when the NHL gets back to playing hockey, you won't find a seat at the ACC for a Leaf game.

I just don't want to pay for Leaf tickets, considering I can go to Vegas for about the same as a few tickets would cost.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Both sides will meet again on Wednesday, according to different sources. Meeting location unknown at the moment.


"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

you know the season is over when Crosby signs in Europe.   

my brain and not my heart is saying this, but i think they will resolve their issues and a 40+ game schedule will happen. The crap that has developed over the last few weeks and hearing labour negotiations from other facets in life and all the BS that is being said shows me they are close and will get a new CBA done.

BTW, if you find the secret location of tomorrows meeting, you will be designated mediator.  



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

well, somebody found the meeting location.........


CBA meetings between NHL and NHLPA that are to take place at undisclosed location WILL involve a mediator as per Aaron Ward



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4805 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 131):

CBA meetings between NHL and NHLPA that are to take place at undisclosed location WILL involve a mediator as per Aaron Ward

I hear it's at a Tim Horton's located between Toronto and Buffalo.......  

I'm sure that wherever this meeting will be held at, someone will tweet the location rather quickly as some intrepid reporter will trail the vehicle of one of the participants.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4794 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 131):
CBA meetings between NHL and NHLPA that are to take place at undisclosed location WILL involve a mediator as per Aaron Ward

They haven't used mediators before? What about the federal guys from the other week?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

Scot L. Beckenbaugh and John Sweeney (federal mediators) will be used.


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 134):
Scot L. Beckenbaugh and John Sweeney (federal mediators) will be used.

I thought they already used the Feds last week?

I just have no failth in these clowns. I plan to not attend a hockey game for at least two years after this debacle. The owners and players are nothing but greedy and incompetant. They are arguing over a huge pile of money, and the only power us fans have is to deny that money to them. I plan to do my part to keep these stream of stoppages from occurring.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4710 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 135):

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 134):
Scot L. Beckenbaugh and John Sweeney (federal mediators) will be used.

I thought they already used the Feds last week?

I just have no failth in these clowns. I plan to not attend a hockey game for at least two years after this debacle. The owners and players are nothing but greedy and incompetant. They are arguing over a huge pile of money, and the only power us fans have is to deny that money to them. I plan to do my part to keep these stream of stoppages from occurring.

You have to realize that the players have no real world experience in negotiation, they are only in their late teens to their twenties so I think that they have to rely on people who have experience in the art of negotiation. Having mediators come in is the only hope this season has for a short meaningless season and about the same amount of time in playoffs. Otherwise, the NHL is going to be in jeopardy of destroying its self and the history it has had since Lord Stanley brought over a bowl that is now a massive "cup".

I hope you mean it when you say you are not going to any games for 2 years, although, I don't know why you would want to go see these clowns play what amounts to the worst hockey I have seen in my life. I for one hate the way the game is played now. Too much rough stuff and not enough talented players to make the game enjoyable.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 137, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

From Darren Dreger's tweet:

Quote:
Doesn't sound like PA is willing to work with the NHL's 3 main issues. League responded by saying it won't budge. No progress. As you were.

Bettman, please cancel the whole season. Seriously, cancel it! What's the point of all this crap?!

If there is ANY season this year, I really really hope that the arenas will be empty. No one - players or owners - should deserve our money this year. No one.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 138, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4664 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 136):
You have to realize that the players have no real world experience in negotiation, they are only in their late teens to their twenties so I think that they have to rely on people who have experience in the art of negotiation. Having mediators come in is the only hope this season has for a short meaningless season and about the same amount of time in playoffs. Otherwise, the NHL is going to be in jeopardy of destroying its self and the history it has had since Lord Stanley brought over a bowl that is now a massive "cup".

Here's the makeup of the NHLPA Negotiating Committee:

Craig Adams
Adrian Aucoin
Alex Auld
David Backes
Marty Biron
Brad Boyes
Chris Campoli
B.J. Crombeen
Mathieu Darche
Rick DiPietro
Brandon Dubinsky
Ruslan Fedotenko
Alex Goligoski
Ron Hainsey
Scott Hartnell
Jamie Langenbrunner
Manny Malhotra
Steve Montador
Dominic Moore
Brendan Morrison
Douglas Murray
George Parros
Chris Phillips
Cory Schneider
John Tavares
Shea Weber
Kevin Westgarth
Dan Winnik
James Wisniewski
Henrik Zetterberg
Shane Doan



http://www.nhlpa.com/inside-nhlpa/or...ization/negotiating-committee.aspx

Tavares is the youngster of the bunch at 22, but everyone else is in their late 20s to their mid 30s.


User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 139, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4637 times:




"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 140, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 132):
I hear it's at a Tim Horton's located between Toronto and Buffalo.......

Excellent choice. Perhaps all the tasty goodies there will put them in a good mood, and the caffeine will help them bargain till a deal is done.

Much better than a bar room: things would start off OK, but there's no doubt it'd end in an epic brawl!

Perhaps a brothel would be better, so they'd be just as screwed as the fans are! 



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 141, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 141):
Right. The ones with negotiating experience and legal expertise please step forward.

Shane Doan's on that list, who has been through 2 lockouts so far. Good ol Grandpa Coyote should be doing work.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 142, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

decertification is rearing it's ugly head again.


I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 143, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4593 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 135):
I thought they already used the Feds last week?

Mediators technically aren't "Feds" since their decision isn't legally binding. It only gets serious when arbitrators get involved.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 135):
I plan to not attend a hockey game for at least two years

I hope you don't watch any on tv either, because the NHL makes money when you do that too.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 139):

I'm on Bettman's side with this one...but that is hilarious!   

Quoting yooyoo (Reply 142):
decertification is rearing it's ugly head again.


Good. Decertifictation is the only thing that will give the NHLPA's head a shake.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 144, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 143):
Good. Decertifictation is the only thing that will give the NHLPA's head a shake.

Reportedly in full swing:
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/...hl_lockout_update_nhl_files_c.html
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/...hl_lockout_update_nhlpa_to_re.html

(these New Jersey articles are the first ones that pop up via google search and have been quite informative.)



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 145, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4518 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
In my opinions- one- Bettman has got to go. I know it's not 100% his fault but his leadership is trash.
two- the NHLPA needs a restructuring, and THEY need education on how to actually spend money, and mental training on the value of the dollar. These players are making millions and they're squabbling over percentages!

Bettman is a lightning rod, but he's basically playing the (correct) mgmt role of trying to manage down union demands. The NHLPA is just laughable. Indeed, they may be disbanded soon.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
three- both the NHLPA and Bettman need to realize that fans are first.

Fans can take their sports passions elsewhere. If Bettman loses a few fans (temp or permanently) by breaking the NHLPA and increasing profits in the longhaul at the expense of a strike now, then he's done a good management job.

Ironically, Bettman is hated in Canada for different reasons that among American fans. He has always been hostile to Canadian expansion of the NHL by focusing on US expansion. Now that the Cdn $ has increased about 60% in value in the last 10 years, Cdn expansion make sense again.

Overall, I'm on Bettman's side. He's a businessman running a business. He has more to think about than some 22yo goon on stakes making $2M/year.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 146, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Well the fans declared a "disclaimer of interest" a lot earlier than the NHLPA. While we're at it, can we have the NHLPA also declare a "disclaimer of interest" in the shootout?

Even with decertification, there's still a fairly narrow window in which to salvage the season. At this point, if there is an NHL season, teams will be playing within their own conferences much like after the 1994-95 lockout. The only way I could see them having a season if the lockout goes past mid-January is if they do some radical thing like every team in a conference plays each other twice (divisions are scrapped) and the top 8 teams go to the playoffs and the playoffs are played as they normally are.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 147, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
The NHLPA is just laughable. Indeed, they may be disbanded soon.

How my views have indeed changed, yeah I see this as an inevitability.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Fans can take their sports passions elsewhere.

Try telling that to your fellow statesmen in Canada. For a lot of people, hockey is a way of life. For people to have a lack of hockey for the season, it can be devastating. For me in particular, since it's the only sport I am good at playing, when I try to introduce foreign exchange students at my school to this sport to explain myself, they express interest in seeing it in person, then become dejected and disinterested when I tell them BS like this is circling around.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 146):
Even with decertification, there's still a fairly narrow window in which to salvage the season. At this point, if there is an NHL season, teams will be playing within their own conferences much like after the 1994-95 lockout.

I think the Yotes out here already wrote off this season from their financial books and have been focusing on strengthening the farm teams for next year.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 148, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4496 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Fans can take their sports passions elsewhere.

Try telling that to your fellow statesmen in Canada. For a lot of people, hockey is a way of life.

No Canadians are dying from a lack of hockey. Life goes on.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 149, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4487 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
Try telling that to your fellow statesmen in Canada. For a lot of people, hockey is a way of life. For people to have a lack of hockey for the season, it can be devastating. For me in particular, since it's the only sport I am good at playing, when I try to introduce foreign exchange students at my school to this sport to explain myself, they express interest in seeing it in person, then become dejected and disinterested when I tell them BS like this is circling around.

A Canadian here, it really hasn't affected me much if anything at all. There is hockey to watch and without the NHL the minor leagues get a lot more publicity.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Fans can take their sports passions elsewhere. If Bettman loses a few fans (temp or permanently) by breaking the NHLPA and increasing profits in the longhaul at the expense of a strike now, then he's done a good management job.

Correct!!

Just to clarify this isn't a strike, it's a lock-out. IIRC the players were willing to play under the conditions of the old CBA until a new one was negotiatied (something that happens often in the union world) but the owners weren't having it.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 150, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4483 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
Try telling that to your fellow statesmen in Canada. For a lot of people, hockey is a way of life.

I'm thinking the hockey is life belief is more of a stereotype of our northern neighbors than truth. Not to mention if hockey really is life, you find other methods to view it. I know my North Dakota Fighting Sioux mens hockey has been packing in the arena every game night. I even read somewhere we have the highest attendance in North America for hockey of any level. Not to mention there are AHL teams that put on some great games. I've caught the Connecticut Whale and Bridgeport Sound Tigers so far this year. As much as I miss the NHL I'll gladly give my money to people who want it and appreciate it. I wanted to patronize the Rangers this year, but they are just too good for my dollars apparently!
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 151, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4457 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
when I try to introduce foreign exchange students at my school to this sport to explain myself, they express interest in seeing it in person, then become dejected and disinterested when I tell them BS like this is circling around

Funny you mention that. I'm on a team at my business school that helps exchange students get settled here in Canada as well, and I find that a few are pretty disappointed when they can't see a professional hockey game.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 148):
No Canadians are dying from a lack of hockey. Life goes on.

It's easy for us to say that coming from big cities, but in the more remote communities where they don't have junior teams to fall back on, watching NHL hockey down at the local bar is a big deal. In many smaller communities, hockey acts as a sort of social glue during the cold winter months. Of course they aren't suffering horribly from this lockout, but I'm sure they'd be much better off if hockey was still on. But as previously stated, that has no bearing on negotiations.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 152, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 151):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
when I try to introduce foreign exchange students at my school to this sport to explain myself, they express interest in seeing it in person, then become dejected and disinterested when I tell them BS like this is circling around

Funny you mention that. I'm on a team at my business school that helps exchange students get settled here in Canada as well, and I find that a few are pretty disappointed when they can't see a professional hockey game.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 148):
No Canadians are dying from a lack of hockey. Life goes on.

It's easy for us to say that coming from big cities, but in the more remote communities where they don't have junior teams to fall back on, watching NHL hockey down at the local bar is a big deal. In many smaller communities, hockey acts as a sort of social glue during the cold winter months. Of course they aren't suffering horribly from this lockout, but I'm sure they'd be much better off if hockey was still on. But as previously stated, that has no bearing on negotiations.

From what I have seen while I was there, the withdrawal symptoms are far less this year than when they cancelled the season last time. Most people don't seem to miss their weekly dose of "Coaches Corner" and the hockey is hockey is hockey is hockey. The junior ranks are making up for the lack of hockey. Just go down to the local rink and see.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 153, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

https://www.facebook.com/NHL/posts/379871968771687

Games cancelled through Jan. 14.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 154, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4337 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

They should just cancel the season. It's just a tease at this point. I'm sick of hearing "positive" news, only to hear these two knuckleheads (Fehr and Bettman) screw it up.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 155, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 152):
The junior ranks are making up for the lack of hockey. Just go down to the local rink and see.

I was moreso referring to the more remote communities that have little more than a couple house league teams.

But you're definitely right about the junior ranks making up for it. My cousin plays in the NCAA and he says that they've been packing the house every game this season.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 153):
Games cancelled through Jan. 14.

Surprise, surprise...

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 154):
They should just cancel the season. It's just a tease at this point. I'm sick of hearing "positive" news, only to hear these two knuckleheads (Fehr and Bettman) screw it up.

Agreed. They need to just rip the band-aid off and get it over with.

All I'll say is that it's a good thing I bought my dad AHL tickets for Christmas. At least I can count on the Hamilton Bulldogs for some good, consistent hockey.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 156, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4322 times:

http://thefourthpair.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/count-von-gary-2.jpg

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 154):
They should just cancel the season. It's just a tease at this point. I'm sick of hearing "positive" news, only to hear these two knuckleheads (Fehr and Bettman) screw it up.

I concur, as it's more and more obvious that these two clowns are stubborn to the point that neither side is willing to give an inch. The NHLPA reaped what they sowed by hiring Fehr and the NHL owners reaped what they sowed by keeping Gary Von Count Bettman as Commissioner. As someone who lives in a market that lost their NHL team, if the NHL were to never play another game, it would make me happy. If the NHL were to fold, hopefully whatever league that would rise from the ashes would have sense enough to make sure that there are teams in the top 10 media markets in the US and that those teams have committed ownership (as opposed to owners that need to be committed).

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 155):

All I'll say is that it's a good thing I bought my dad AHL tickets for Christmas. At least I can count on the Hamilton Bulldogs for some good, consistent hockey.

We've got an ECHL team here (Gwinnett Gladiators) that draws pretty decently, but so far this season (through 12 home dates), they're down an average of about 200 folks a game from last season, but even at 4900 fans a game, that's still pretty good for an AA league team. During the last NHL lockout, they averaged 6045 fans a game, which was a jump of 1000 fans a game over the previous season. The season after the last lockout, they averaged 5524 fans a game, which isn't too bad of a drop off seeing that some fans opted to stick with going to Gladiator games over Thrashers games.

In NHL markets in which there are junior teams and/or minor league teams, once the lockout is settled, they'll likely see a slight drop in fans, but I think that they may retain a lot of fans as well. The fans seem to be more angry at this lockout than the last one.