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CFL Vs LED Advice  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2602 times:

My old thread on the subject is locked/archived, so I'll start a new one.

We just bought a new home. All the lights are incandescent and that has to change immediately. I don't need to rack up those kids of electricity bills.

Now, I'm well aware of the disadvantages to CFL's. Breakable, mercury, less efficient, warm-up time, dimming works poorly.

BUT... before I sink $1,300 into LED lighting that will last me until I'm 50, I want to make a careful decision. It seems to me as if LED lighting technology is rapidly maturing. The new Philips L-prize LED has a CRI of 90 at 2700K and uses 10W for 900 lumens (60W incandescent equivalent). It comes in one power (10W/900 lumen) and the other bulbs of other powers are CRI of 80.

But Philips already has introduced into some markets the "DimTone" LED. This LED is fully dimmable and changes the color temperature as it is dimmed to a richer, warmer light just like an incandescent. If the L-Prize 10W is out, when will that technology be combined with DimTone?

See what I mean? I'm hesitant to buy LED's because I'm worried that they will quickly go obsolete. I'm tempted to wait a few years until the ones with features I like become available.

What are your thoughts?

[Edited 2012-11-20 00:29:09]

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3741 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2602 times:

I know I'd wait.

And I think there's no guarantee that LEDs that you buy today will last you forever either.
LEDs themselves suffer almost no wear, but heat dissipation is their major issue. LEDs are more efficient but actually produce more heat than an equivalent incandescent. The higher the power rating, the better the heat dissipation system must be to ensure a long lasting bulb...

I'm guessing that integrating LED spots in enclosed areas like false ceilings or the like where there is little ventilation is still relatively challenging...

Here's a good article from a good website on the subject:

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/2/5/8



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days ago) and read 2602 times:

It occurs to me that a lot of the fixtures in the house are closed, so I guess we'll get stuck with CFL's for a little while, anyway.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days ago) and read 2602 times:

I too wouldn't invest a lot of money in LED lighting at the moment. I'd replace the incandescents that are used the most with high-quality CFLs with a warm color range. Those really are okay, not perfect but very usable. Then in a few years buy LEDs when the market has stabilized.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7255 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
LEDs themselves suffer almost no wear, but heat dissipation is their major issue.

That's not true LED's dim over time, you can already see it in instilations where a LED has failed and been replaced, the new one will be brighter than the older ones.

Personally I'd wait a while and wait for the prices for LEDs to drop as the technology maturers. What I would do is replace the incandescents with something like the Osram Halolux energy saver lamps, they give the same kind of like as incandescent, are cheaper to run and have amuch longer life, they are also significantly cheaper to buy than good quality CFL's. 60w is reduced to 42w, yet the output is the same and energy consumption reduced with a longer lifetime.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
I'm guessing that integrating LED spots in enclosed areas like false ceilings or the like where there is little ventilation is still relatively challenging...

The new OSRAM LED's are specifically designed for this kind of instillation, so long as they are installed within a box it's not a problem.


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

We have made the switch 3 years ago.... have maybe 3 or 4 CFL's left in the house just because there is nothing available on the LED side. Most of these LED's are in the "daylight" range. No regrets so far and non of them had to be replaced and they works just fine in our cold winters in Canada   They all do loose brightness over time.... I do not pay attention to the watts, lumens is what I look for and compare between all these bulbs. Majority are made by Lights of America...

Cheerios,


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2601 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
That's not true LED's dim over time, you can already see it in instilations where a LED has failed and been replaced

They sure do. My dad sells and services railroad signal equipment and has been selling and servicing LEDs for 11 years and he tells me they do wear out over time. Railroads like them because they are bright, use less energy and last longer than traditional lamps, but they will not last foreever.

LEDs can also have issues with the circuitry that makes it works. The LEDs may be in perfect shape, but a failed circuit still means a failure.

I would also go with the CFLs until the LED technology gets cheaper. CFLs aren't the best, but I made the switch 8 years ago when they were fairly pricey and I have only replaced two inside the house. I have replaced the ones in my porch lights about once a year, I guess they can't take the Michigan winter more than once.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39835 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
All the lights are incandescent and that has to change immediately.


Hang on to them for now. You can install dimmer switches for the moment and turn down the lighting when you don't need that much light.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I'm well aware of the disadvantages to CFL's. Breakable, mercury, less efficient, warm-up time, dimming works poorly.


....and may hurt your dog if they break.
Remember what Congressman Ted Poe said;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv59PJ30WeM

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I'm hesitant to buy LED's because I'm worried that they will quickly go obsolete. I'm tempted to wait a few years until the ones with features I like become available.



Wait a while before something else comes along. The charming vintage Victorian you recently bought really shines and brings out the fine details of your walls, boarders, arches and other ornate details found in home of this era with traditional incandescent light bulbs. You don't want to put in cheap factory lighting (CFLs) in your new home.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5396 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

I've put a couple of LED lights in the kitchen (we also just bought a house, and strange how bulbs seem to be burning out), replacing incandescent. Both the wife and I commented that the light was 'different' We bought Bright White with a 75 watts equivalent.

We're hesitant to experiment with Daylight and Softwhite, due to the cost of experimentation.

I replaced a couple of basement bulbs that are on dimmers with a dimmable LED and they seem to work OK. Those bulb sit right next to incandescents and, except at the dimmest setting, I really can't tell the difference.

We will probably just replace bulbs on an attrition basis.

I will assure you of one thing...CFL's are coming out of this house. The light is just too harsh and the warm-up time (though getting better) is annoying. Three or 4 years ago, I swapped the whole house over to CFL and that was a mistake.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
The charming vintage Victorian you recently bought really shines and brings out the fine details of your walls, boarders, arches and other ornate details found in home of this era with traditional incandescent light bulbs.

I think it would look much better by gaslight.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
It occurs to me that a lot of the fixtures in the house are closed, so I guess we'll get stuck with CFL's for a little while, anyway.

Doc, what do you mean by closed? I haven't found a fixture that won't accept an LED. In fact, I have found that the LED's are closer to mimicking the shape and size of a comparable incandescent than some CFL's are.

[Edited 2012-11-20 08:43:59]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
We just bought a new home. All the lights are incandescent and that has to change immediately. I don't need to rack up those kids of electricity bills.

Incandescent lights are not the huge drain if you turn them off when not in use.

I heard about new 3M bulbs this weekend. They believe they have solved the heat problem by surrounding the led with a cooling liquid. Passively cooled allowing for smaller size bulbs. Fully dimmable. Supposedly Walmart will be carrying them but I could not find them online.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Hang on to them for now. You can install dimmer switches for the moment and turn down the lighting when you don't need that much light.

Dimmer switches are already installed. I can use dimmable CFL's or dimmable LED's.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Wait a while before something else comes along. The charming vintage Victorian you recently bought really shines and brings out the fine details of your walls, boarders, arches and other ornate details found in home of this era with traditional incandescent light bulbs. You don't want to put in cheap factory lighting (CFLs) in your new home.

I think you're used to the CFL's that have the 5000-6000K color temperature. That color of light is horrible and is exactly like cheap factory lighting.

Proper domestic CFL's have a 2700K color temperature and a good CRI. The light quality is indistinguishable from those of an incandescent to the human eye. I'm more concerned about the environmental impact both in the home (if one breaks when it is warm) and also globally (mercury).

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
I heard about new 3M bulbs this weekend. They believe they have solved the heat problem by surrounding the led with a cooling liquid. Passively cooled allowing for smaller size bulbs. Fully dimmable. Supposedly Walmart will be carrying them but I could not find them online.

I've heard about these and the DimTones and it just appears as if they aren't yet available.

For now, I am putting LED's in all open fixtures around the house and I will put dimmable CFL's in the closed fixtures. The closed fixtures (and for that matter the open fixtures) are all completely fugly and eventually (when I have some of that green stuff around), I'd like to replace them with something a bit less "grandma."

[Edited 2012-11-20 11:07:47]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39835 posts, RR: 74
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
I think it would look much better by gaslight.


True but then there is the fire hazard - the dog might knock it over or an earthquake and then his investment is up in smoke.
That wouldn't be good.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I think you're used to the CFL's that have the 5000-6000K color temperature. That color of light is horrible and is exactly like cheap factory lighting.

Proper domestic CFL's have a 2700K color temperature and a good CRI.



I haven't bothered to check. As long as incandescents are on the market, I'll continue to buy them.

Have you considered lava lamps and other inexpensive mood lighting?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
I haven't bothered to check. As long as incandescents are on the market, I'll continue to buy them.

Most of the lighting in our rental house right now is CFL (that I put in). They've more than paid for themselves. The big problem with CFL's as far as light is concerned is the warm-up time. When you turn them on, they come on at less than 30% brightness and then require anywhere from 1-10 minutes to warm up completely.

However, once they are on, they look like incandescents if you can't see the bulb itself.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39835 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
However, once they are on, they look like incandescents if you can't see the bulb itself.

I'm a bulb-snob   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7255 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

Dimmer switches are already installed. I can use dimmable CFL's or dimmable LED's.

Hate to burst your bubble Doc but not all dimmer switches will work with all dimmable LEDS, there's both analogue and digital dimming, they are not interchangeable.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
Hate to burst your bubble Doc but not all dimmer switches will work with all dimmable LEDS, there's both analogue and digital dimming, they are not interchangeable.

Good point. Many dimmers cannot deal with the low wattage of leds.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

CFL has been a failure until MAYBE now.

LED is most likely a failure at this very moment -- bad quality, bad light, production defects and too expensive.

CFLs last a very long time if you never turn them off. This strikes me as an irrelevant and misleading fact. They do die, and regularly.

I use CFLs for the majority of my lighting. i like Cool color temps, not sickly yellowish "warm" lights. GE Reveal is a bit too reddish for me, but it gets close. The goal is something similar to daylight. At least some of us enjoy that.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5396 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
This strikes me as an irrelevant and misleading fact. They do die, and regularly.

I agree. It seems I was changing CFL bulbs more than I expected. I seemed to always be localized around a coiple of fixtures, though. I cleaned the contacts and checked the voltage at the bases, but still 3 or 4 fixtures kept burning those CFL's out.   



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
I agree. It seems I was changing CFL bulbs more than I expected. I seemed to always be localized around a coiple of fixtures, though. I cleaned the contacts and checked the voltage at the bases, but still 3 or 4 fixtures kept burning those CFL's out.   

That's strange, I've been using CFL's for 10 years now and I still have to have a single one die on me. Quite unlike incandescents which you have to replace rather often. The CFL's do lose their full power though. I already replaced one or two because they don't go to full brightness anymore.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

I actually just bit the bullet and bought a bunch of LEDs. I'm leasing an apartment and just renewed the lease for a year, and fully plan on taking these with me when I move. Yes, I did box up all the old incandescent lights to put them back in the fixtures. 

One of the luxuries of being a young, single guy making way too much money is I can start silly projects and have fun. I have started automating my apartment, and have built my own electronics to do that, and all the control mechanisms using computers, I have programmed and built myself.

The next step was to get controllable lighting. I did not want to play around with solid state relays in light switches, so I bit the bullet and bought some LEDs that Philips makes. They only sell them at Apple stores.

http://www.meethue.com/en-US

They aren't cheap: http://store.apple.com/us/product/HA...ps-hue-connected-bulb-starter-pack
And additional bulbs are $60.

They're fun because I can dim them, turn them into any color I want, and adjust the warmth all from my iPhone/iPad/Android. I have also written a custom application so I can control them over a HTTP call... and can then control them over a webpage or a phone prompt.

As for the LEDs themselves, they are bright and well-built. I think the light is just as good as incandescent bulbs - I never liked the CFLs.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 19):
They're fun because I can dim them, turn them into any color I want, and adjust the warmth all from my iPhone/iPad/Android. I have also written a custom application so I can control them over a HTTP call... and can then control them over a webpage or a phone prompt.

The question is how good the CRI is. If the bulb is based on just RGB, then the CRI will be poor.


User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
The question is how good the CRI is. If the bulb is based on just RGB, then the CRI will be poor.

The LEDs inside are not RGB - they are closer to orange, lime-green, and violet. Right now I have them in about half the sockets around the apartment, and the other half are incandescent. I have set the warmth of the LEDs such that they are truly indistinguishable from the incandescent bulbs.

I do have some knock-off LED accent lights as well, which are RGB. I was unhappy with those, as the light was always bright white. The two schemes are definitely different, with different color productions possible with each. The Philips LEDs are more "pastel" - that's the best word I can come up with.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 21):
The LEDs inside are not RGB - they are closer to orange, lime-green, and violet.

Even still, that's going to hit the CRI. Colors that absorb and reflect frequencies between those emitted frequencies will appear very dull.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5506 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

If you are counting on changing out bulbs to "save money," you must leave a lot of lights on a lot of the time!

I have replaced most lights that I use a lot with CFLs, and I know that they use a lot less power (and emit less heat, which in Texas in the summer is a good thing). Nonetheless, I have also found that CFLs fail more frequently than we are told to expect - I have come around to the habit of coding the date of installation to track this; very disappointing.

Also (and this is something we hear little of), CFLs will occasionally fail "noisy" - the electronic circuitry making a huge amount of electrical noise (they are transmitting RF, over the home's wiring). It interferes with radios and remote-control devices. Big pain to troubleshoot the first time I encountered it.

I have great hopes for LED lights, but the cost is just stupid right now, and having watched the price curve, I am confident that they will make a lot more sense economically in a couple of years.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2526 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):

If you are counting on changing out bulbs to "save money," you must leave a lot of lights on a lot of the time!

Well, you save money on a light that lasts 15 years and burns little energy in a setting where energy is expensive.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
Nonetheless, I have also found that CFLs fail more frequently than we are told to expect - I have come around to the habit of coding the date of installation to track this; very disappointing.

There are a number of factors that affect CFL lifetime and one of them is frequency of on/off. Every time you turn a CFL on and off, you shorten its lifespan, much as for an incandescent. For this reason, CFL's are good for lights that will be cycled infrequently and left on for a long time.

I use incandescents for closets and other such spaces where the light will only ever be on for a few seconds at a time. In such a setting, a CFL will age quickly and require "warming up" to get to full brightness and an LED is simply not cost-effective.

I use LED's for open fixtures. They have all of the benefits of CFL's (even better efficiency), last 10-20 years, start instantly, and don't care how often they're turned on and off. Also, most LED bulbs today are dimmable, although the color temperature starts to look odd once they are very dim.

I use CFL's for closed fixtures because LED's currently handle closed fixtures. Fortunately, in my home, most of the closed fixtures are in side rooms (the office, the bedrooms) where they would likely not be turned on and off frequently and will be left on for a long time.

But each technology has its niche.


25 KiwiRob : They do care, same with most electronics, the number of cycles effects them.
26 falstaff : I have had them for 7 or 8 years now and I have only replaced two inside the house. The outdoors ones don't last as long, but neither did standard bu
27 Post contains images swissy : We did a bigger scale test with my wifes poultry barns.... 400 bulbs , the worst ones are the CFL's by far, lighting is controlled by computers, we av
28 DocLightning : Not the diode itself. In fact, LED's last longer when cycled. The underlying solid-state electronics may degrade, but much slower than the diode will
29 KiwiRob : You have to consider the diode and the electronics behind it as one in the same, you can't replace the diode when the circuit board dies. I have no i
30 mham001 : Not even close. Resistors and whatnot can fail for a number of reasons, in fact the big problem leds have is the circuit board getting too hot and th
31 Superfly : DocLightning: Have you considered halogen lights? They may not be as efficient as the CFLs but more efficient than incandescent yet still dimmable and
32 Post contains links Marcus : These look good...don't know about prices but since these are sold in Apple stores they will not be cheap... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQj08SluX
33 Post contains images ALTF4 :
34 Post contains images Flighty : When going for a premium clean look, halogen is perfected technology.
35 DocLightning : Can't use halogens in closed fixtures. Also, halogens still radiate the vast majority of their energy as heat and, while they save about 10-20% on en
36 Post contains images Revelation : I've avoided CFLs because of the warm-up factor. Also the early ones had transformers in them that would hum, which would drive me nuts. I've still g
37 sccutler : Looks like our approach to lighting is consistent, Doc. Good analysis.
38 Post contains images DocLightning : A "closed" fixture is a fixture that is not open to the air. An "open fixture" is open to the air. This is important because LED's generate a fair am
39 zippyjet : Since they are an investment, start gradually. I can vouch for outdoor LED floods I purchased within the past six weeks. I use them on my patio. This
40 Post contains images Superfly : My condo has both halogen and incandescent bulbs. All of the halogen and some of the incandescent bulbs are on dimmers switches. Looks great at night
41 Post contains images KiwiRob : Jesus Doc where the hell do you get this kinda rubbish information. This kind of halogen you can use in any fixture open or closed. Osram Halolux Cla
42 Revelation : I'm really surprised the controlling electronics would degrade with switching. Use of solid state electronics in switching applications is as old as
43 DocLightning : Oh. I've never see those before. Cool! I've done side-by-side comparisons with doubters like you and they've been shocked.
44 KiwiRob : Standard 60w is replaced by a 42w, lights have a design life of 3000 hours and are cheaper than quality CFL's.
45 Post contains images Superfly : Did you stick their wet finger in the socket?
46 mham001 : But are those switches sitting next to the hot led going through heat cycles? A flashing led would only be half hot and might explain where he heard
47 Post contains images DocLightning : Still not doing it for me. I can cut it to 12-14W with a design life of 5-7000 hours and negligible radiated heat. There are about 20 bulbs in the ho
48 Post contains links DocLightning : That's part of it. It takes a while for an LED to reach full heat. Usually a half hour on or so. Here is an example of rapid LED cycling. It's called
49 Superfly : That is amazing and would look even more trippy if you're on something.....
50 DocLightning : I'm sure nobody at Burning Man does drugs. And even on the off chance they did, they would not stand around the Cubitron grinning and laughing like h
51 Post contains images Superfly : Well of course not. It's against the law... Oh boy.
52 Post contains images DocLightning : Jeebus. The man is as bad as I am! I'm glad you understand. We're all very law-abiding. After all, I am an upright, respec(koff!)able, ups(hack!)tand
53 Post contains images Revelation : Did their camp include a 'Jiffy Lube' tent?
54 sccutler : The effective and efficient help by the Burners does not surprise; nothing like a bureaucracy to hinder and delay the delivery of assistance (I had my
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