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User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

A friend of mine works for a govt department, this department are having their Christmas party this coming Friday, however they won't be serving traditional Norwegian Christmas food due to complaints from some staff members, these staff members cannot eat the food as it's against their religion. Norwegian Christmas food in this part of the country is generally pork belly/ribbe and lamb. So now 140 or so people will not be able to enjoy a traditional Christmas meal with their co-workers because a couple of religious zealots have objected. I don't think this is fair, if these people have an issue with the food they shouldn't attend.

Ribbe (pork belly)

http://www.aperitif.no/var/aperitif/storage/images/oppskrifter2/kokebok/kjoett/julemaaltidet/steking-av-ribbe/5781572-10-nor-NO/Steking-av-ribbe.jpg

Pinnekjott (salted lamb)

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/55/554/554954/v960_1227260745.jpg

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9776 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3319 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
A friend of mine works for a govt department, this department are having their Christmas party this coming Friday, however they won't be serving traditional Norwegian Christmas food due to complaints from some staff members, these staff members cannot eat the food as it's against their religion. Norwegian Christmas food in this part of the country is generally pork belly/ribbe and lamb. So now 140 or so people will not be able to enjoy a traditional Christmas meal with their co-workers because a couple of religious zealots have objected. I don't think this is fair, if these people have an issue with the food they shouldn't attend.

This sounds more like the reaction was stupid, rather than the original issue.

Why didn't they just provide alternatives to the traditional Christmas food for those who can't eat it?

I see no issue with folks who can't eat certain items requesting that their company provide alternatives at a company-sanctioned party.

Plus, a lot of my extended family are vegetarians, but they're by no means "religious zealots". What if people have allergies to a particular food? Are they "allergic zealots"?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8685 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Who celebrates a CHRISTmas dinner if his or her religion forbids the eating of pork?   


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
This sounds more like the reaction was stupid, rather than the original issue.

head on. It is important to remember that it isn't the food that is important. It is meeting in an environment different from the day to day environment.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Why didn't they just provide alternatives to the traditional Christmas food for those who can't eat it?

A simple solution that has been very successful where I have seen it used. Coming from a restaurant family I have seen it many times and as a vegetarian I have experienced it often enough.

It is all about being smart and remember what it really is about.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Why didn't they just provide alternatives to the traditional Christmas food for those who can't eat it?

To date I've never been to a Norwegian Christmas Party where alternatives to traditional food have been offered, I don't have problem with that, after all it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas Party.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):

To date I've never been to a Norwegian Christmas Party where alternatives to traditional food have been offered, I don't have problem with that, after all it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas Party.

In this day and age, with 140 employees (from Norway no less) you're bound to have a good number of vegetarians anyway. Why not provide some meat-free food as well, and there's a good chance that those who are strict about their diet for religious reasons can eat that too.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9776 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3273 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
To date I've never been to a Norwegian Christmas Party where alternatives to traditional food have been offered

So?

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
Who celebrates a CHRISTmas dinner if his or her religion forbids the eating of pork?

If my employer is holding a Christmas/holiday dinner, why wouldn't I go?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
In this day and age, with 140 employees (from Norway no less) you're bound to have a good number of vegetarians anyway. Why not provide some meat-free food as well, and there's a good chance that those who are strict about their diet for religious reasons can eat that too.

For the vegitarians (I've never met a Norwegian vegetarian BTW) there are the non meat items that come with Norwegian Christmas food. That should be enough to keep them happy.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
So?

So, why should an alternative be offered, it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas meal, Norwegians are very fond of these traditions and don't like anyone messing with them.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8685 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
If my employer is holding a Christmas/holiday dinner, why wouldn't I go?

I can't think of a reason, mostly because you don't seem to follow a strict interpretation of any religion. It is, however, hypocritical to join a celebration of the birth of Christ if you adhere so strictly to another religion that you "have" to spoil other people's Christmas dinner because your religion forbids its main ingredient.

I do agree with you:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
This sounds more like the reaction was stupid, rather than the original issue.

but KiwiRob's relation of the story sounded like the person/people in question didn't lobby for a more diverse buffet, but against the traditional option... or like something with equal consequences happened.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Pork I can understand, but Lamb? I thought all religions could eat lamb. HMMMM

I'm on both sides on this. I can understand why someone would not want to attend a Christmas dinner and be forced to eat food that is against my religion.

GET OVER IT PEOPLE, I'm not trying to convert you to my religion because I want you at party. And if you are that weak about your religion, that you may convert because I served you some food, you do need a new religion.


Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3084 times:
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Those who don't want the traditional pork should get a nice bowl of SODD - or perhaps, sodd off......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodd



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 10):
I'm on both sides on this. I can understand why someone would not want to attend a Christmas dinner and be forced to eat food that is against my religion.


Forced? You're telling me that the Norwegians put on their Viking helmets and will hold down those who object to eating pork and shove it into their mouths?  Wow!

If your religion forbids you from eating pork and pork is the main constituent of a Christmas dinner and/or party, you have the choice to not attend. If you choose to attend, don't be offended by the offerings.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
So, why should an alternative be offered, it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas meal, Norwegians are very fond of these traditions and don't like anyone messing with them.

Ah, but by the same token, the objectors are objecting because of their traditions. And no, not all of them are immigrants.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):

If your religion forbids you from eating pork and pork is the main constituent of a Christmas dinner and/or party, you have the choice to not attend. If you choose to attend, don't be offended by the offerings.

I can agree with that. However, I like to make as many people as happy as possible. Throw in a side table of offerings that anyone can eat... like some vegetarian and non-pork dishes. Everyone gets to eat and be happy. Being stubborn about stubbornness breeds more stubbornness, and it comes back around until we have yet another holy war.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I can agree with that. However, I like to make as many people as happy as possible. Throw in a side table of offerings that anyone can eat... like some vegetarian and non-pork dishes. Everyone gets to eat and be happy. Being stubborn about stubbornness breeds more stubbornness, and it comes back around until we have yet another holy war.


We love to entertain. And we have a couple of friends that are Muslim. When we have a bunch of people over, we offer a variety of meals, including pork. No one makes a fuss, we all just eat and have a good time. The Muslims don't eat the pork. Easy.

The OP's situation is different. The protesting group isn't looking for an accommodation, they're looking for capitulation...and it appears they've won. And, that is wrong.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):

The OP's situation is different. The protesting group isn't looking for an accommodation, they're looking for capitulation...and it appears they've won. And, that is wrong.

I saw nothing to suggest they wanted "capitulation".

I'm not familiar with Norwegian HR types, but American HR departments have a tendency to staff insecure types of people. It's very possible that the workers in question complained about not having non-kosher food at the party, and in response (either out of real fear of a lawsuit or just a tactic to generate bad publicity against them) decided that there was to be NO pork at the party.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
It's very possible that the workers in question complained about not having non-kosher food at the party, and in response (either out of real fear of a lawsuit or just a tactic to generate bad publicity against them) decided that there was to be NO pork at the party.

Same result. A couple of forceful folks push over the HR folks. My guess, and it is a guess, is that pork would not have been tolerated and a bigger stink made.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
The OP's situation is different. The protesting group isn't looking for an accommodation, they're looking for capitulation...and it appears they've won. And, that is wrong.

Yes, well, then again, any and all information we have about the incident is from said threadstarter himself, who made very clear what he thinks of Muslim eating habits in a recently deleted post.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Same result.

But how do you fix it, if you don't care who's to blame?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
A couple of forceful folks push over the HR folks

Trust me, when it comes to "minority issues" it don't take much force to push them over (right or wrong).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
My guess, and it is a guess, is that pork would not have been tolerated and a bigger stink made.

No offense, but that just shows your prejudice. There is not NEARLY enough information in any post to make that guess.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
who made very clear what he thinks of Muslim eating habits in a recently deleted post.

Not just muslim, jewish as well, in this day and age the way meat is slaughtered for these religious groups is disgusting, we have rules for the humane treatment of animals, so no reason why religion should negate these rules.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
Trust me, when it comes to "minority issues" it don't take much force to push them over (right or wrong).


I deal with HR all the time. You're right, it doesn't take much, but we all know that groups take advantage of that mindset.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
There is not NEARLY enough information in any post to make that guess.


You're right. There isn't enough information, but I'll stand by my guess. It's not prejudice, it's stereotyping based on observations. And yes, we all stereotype, whether you want to believe it or not.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
But how do you fix it, if you don't care who's to blame?


I actually do care. Problem is, that we have a group that is more than willing to exert pressure and impose their belief system on the majority around them and you have another group (HR, in this case) that bow to this pressure. Of course, that's assuming that the OP's rendition of the facts is correct.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Not just muslim, jewish as well, in this day and age the way meat is slaughtered for these religious groups is disgusting, we have rules for the humane treatment of animals, so no reason why religion should negate these rules.


I disagree. I won't speak for other nations, but, here in the US, we do need to allow religious groups their core beliefs. I don't necessarily agree with the methods, but they are their methods and they can be traced back to the origins of the religions.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
I disagree. I won't speak for other nations, but, here in the US, we do need to allow religious groups their core beliefs.

Have you ever been to a freezing works and watched beasts slaughtered, I have, I went with an uncle who was a butcher, animals killed with a captive bolt die quickly, animals with their throats slit die in pain and make a lot of noise, the killing chain workers do not like it when killing animals for hallil and kosher meat.

I do not see why civiliased people should be allowed to treat killing animals with such distain for the purposes of religion, we are supposed to be better than this.

We can allow immigrants and religions folk their core beliefs up to a certain point, we should not have to change our behavior to accommodate them.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
A friend of mine works for a govt department, this department are having their Christmas party this coming Friday, however they won't be serving traditional Norwegian Christmas food due to complaints from some staff members, these staff members cannot eat the food as it's against their religion. Norwegian Christmas food in this part of the country is generally pork belly/ribbe and lamb. So now 140 or so people will not be able to enjoy a traditional Christmas meal with their co-workers because a couple of religious zealots have objected. I don't think this is fair, if these people have an issue with the food they shouldn't attend.

The problem here isn't pork...it's that the leadership of a diverse organization is throwing a "Christmas Party" in the first place. Is that going to be held before or after their "Celebration of Being White", or the "Gays Only Retreat"?

This whole issue could have been averted with a little bit of common sense...ie throw a 'Holiday Party' and ask for feedback on the menu. Then non-Christians could identify the fact that they can't eat the main course and request an alternative.

Mutual respect. Problem solved. Ironic that I (the damned atheist) needed to point out something so obvious.

Edit:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
The OP's situation is different. The protesting group isn't looking for an accommodation, they're looking for capitulation...and it appears they've won. And, that is wrong.

This may be true, but people get like this when they feel marginalized for being different on something as elemental as religious belief. If they felt like they were valued they'd probably offer to bring a food to share from their tradition.

Just because an action seeks to accommodate something other than the default majority worldview (in this case Christianity), doesn't make it a cynical concession to political correctness. Sometimes it's just the right thing to do.



[Edited 2012-11-22 05:28:50]

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
It is, however, hypocritical to join a celebration of the birth of Christ if you adhere so strictly to another religion that you "have" to spoil other people's Christmas dinner because your religion forbids its main ingredient.

The real hypocrisy is throwing a "Christmas" party in the workplace when not all of the employees are Christians.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 23):
The real hypocrisy is throwing a "Christmas" party in the workplace when not all of the employees are Christians.

When the vast and I mean vast majority (apparently only 4 people in the entire 140 weren't ethnic Norwegian) why should any accommodation be made. My company is having it's Christmas party next week, there will be 300 hundred odd people going, we have over 20 different nationalities working here and I guarantee all the food with be ethnic Norwegian christmas food, after all we chose to move here so we should expect to follow the local traditions. I don't expect to see NZ style Christmas food on the table, I can't see why anyone else should either.

I'd feel fairly confident that if I was going to a Hanuka party all the food there would be jewish and kosher, would any efforts be made to satisfy my tastes and dislike of how kosher meat is killed, I doubt it.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
The problem here isn't pork...it's that the leadership of a diverse organization is throwing a "Christmas Party" in the first place. Is that going to be held before or after their "Celebration of Being White", or the "Gays Only Retreat"?
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 23):
The real hypocrisy is throwing a "Christmas" party in the workplace when not all of the employees are Christians.

So I guess the non-Christians shouldn't get days off for Christmas then, eh?

Like you, I'm an atheist, but even I believe that we shouldn't make concessions for everyone, it's just not realistic. Christmas has become more than a religious holiday, it's become a national holiday in many places, and it shouldn't be changed because a few outsiders don't like it. This will sound awful xenophobic of me, but if a very small minority moves to a country and doesn't like the way things are done, they should either adapt, have to make their own concessions, or go somewhere else that caters to their ideals. Do you think I'm going to go to India and raise a stink about not getting to enjoy a nice steak? The onus shouldn't be on the home country to bow down to the various minorities.

It reminds of in high school when they started calling the massive tree in our school's foyer a "festive bush" (yes, they really called it that) instead of "Christmas tree", because my school had a high proportion of ESL (English as a Second Language) students who weren't Christian. It's ridiculous because nothing physically or symbolically about the tree changed, they literally just changed the name, which was apparently good enough for some people.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
This may be true, but people get like this when they feel marginalized for being different on something as elemental as religious belief.
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):

The problem here isn't pork...it's that the leadership of a diverse organization is throwing a "Christmas Party" in the first place. Is that going to be held before or after their "Celebration of Being White", or the "Gays Only Retreat"?

This whole issue could have been averted with a little bit of common sense...ie throw a 'Holiday Party' and ask for feedback on the menu. Then non-Christians could identify the fact that they can't eat the main course and request an alternative.

Seriously, if you're that bothered by the word "Christmas"... well...




"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):
Seriously, if you're that bothered by the word "Christmas"... well...

I've got no problem with Christmas...other than the fact that I've got to put the damned tree up again tomorrow (seems like we just took it down).

What bothers me is when a majority assume that their beliefs or traditions are (or should be) the default for everyone, and get nasty whenever someone suggests a more inclusive approach.

I couldn't care less what some Norwegian government department does, but I contend that they could have avoided this entire mess by not viewing small efforts to make different people feel welcome as 'concessions' in the first place. This silly pork debacle isn't about the food, it's about the 'tude.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 27):
What bothers me is when a majority assume that their beliefs or traditions are (or should be) the default for everyone, and get nasty whenever someone suggests a more inclusive approach.

I call BS. If I go to Germany and Beer and pork offend me, it's up to me to leave. If find women in skimpy bikinis offensive, don't go to the Riviera.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):

I call BS. If I go to Germany and Beer and pork offend me, it's up to me to leave. If find women in skimpy bikinis offensive, don't go to the Riviera.

No shit, Sherlock. Who in their right mind would disagree with these obvious and largely superficial examples?

Unfortunately, what I was discussing before you parachuted in is a substantially different issue - how EMPLOYERS ought to deal with ethnic or religious diversity in their workforce.

I stand by what I said...if you think it's smart for employers to throw "Christmas" parties when they know damned well that some of their employees are not Christians, or to begrudge the cultural variations in their workforce instead of seeing them as opportunities to share and grow, then best of luck to you.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
Unfortunately, what I was discussing before you parachuted in is a substantially different issue - how EMPLOYERS ought to deal with ethnic or religious diversity in their workforce.

Within reason, that's how much.

If you are in a predominantly Christian country, it is perfectly fine to have a Christmas party, with a Christmas tree and a manger scene if you like.

If you are in a Nordic country (many of which have pork as a significant part of their diet), it is perfectly fine to serve pork.

As far as the people who are not Christian, or do not eat pork, you make sure there are alternatives on the menu, and that they are welcome to join in the Christmas party if they like.

But if they insist of being offended at what we celebrate and what we eat, and insist on making a fuss about it, I would volunteer to be the first one to kick them out the door.

[Edited 2012-11-22 12:51:35]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
If you are in a predominantly Christian country, it is perfectly fine to have a Christmas party, with a Christmas tree and a manger scene if you like.

Rhetorical question - what percentage of your workforce needs to be non-Christian before you decide to call it a 'holiday party' and invite people to contribute items from their cultures?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
If you are in a Nordic country (many of which have pork as a significant part of their diet), it is perfectly fine to serve pork.

Yum!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
As far as the people who are not Christian, or do not eat pork, you make sure there are alternatives on the menu

Ding! We have a winner!

Do you suppose that is what happened in this case?


User currently offlinenickh From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2745 times:
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This thread about political correctness (stupidity) reminds me of a lawsuit, filed about a decade (or more) ago by a group of Hindu Vegetarians, against McDonald's Restaurants.

Evidently, these people were eating at a McDonald's (we'll get to the absurdity of that fact alone, in just a second) and they felt that McDonald's mis-represented themselves by letting them believe that their French Fries were vegetarian. Apparently, at that time, McDonald's used to cook their fries in Lard (Pork Fat) and that did not sit well with these vegetarians.

They won the lawsuit and as far as I know, Mickey D's now only uses vegetable oils for their deep frying.

The ABSURDITY of this is WHY were these people dining there in the first place? McDonald's is not exactly known for being a bastion of veggie food. Could they not have packed some vacuum sealed veggie sticks (carrots, c thelery) which do not require refrigeration (assuming that they were on a trip somewhere and McDonald's was the only available restaurant.

Then also, there was that (in)famous case about the granny who spilled hot McDonald's coffee on her crotch, burned herself and then sued [and won] the case for $12-Million. It's COFFEE you dumb witch! It is SUPPOSED to be hot!! Cupholders! Learn to use them! So as a result, MCD now serves coffee at a reduced temperature.

[SIGH]. Too much stupidity in this world.

-Nick



"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2710 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 31):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
As far as the people who are not Christian, or do not eat pork, you make sure there are alternatives on the menu

Ding! We have a winner!

Do you suppose that is what happened in this case?

If that had been the case, there would have been no thread.

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
they won't be serving traditional Norwegian Christmas food due to complaints from some staff members, these staff members cannot eat the food as it's against their religion. Norwegian Christmas food in this part of the country is generally pork belly/ribbe and lamb. So now 140 or so people will not be able to enjoy a traditional Christmas meal with their co-workers because a couple of religious zealots have objected.

They not only objected to having to eat pork (which I can understand), but objected to having to tolerate anyone else around them eating pork either.

It sounds like it is those people who need a lesson in tolerance and diversity training, not their Norwegian hosts.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting nickh (Reply 32):
The ABSURDITY of this is WHY were these people dining there in the first place? McDonald's is not exactly known for being a bastion of veggie food.

Because McD said it was vegetarian.

Quoting nickh (Reply 32):
Then also, there was that (in)famous case about the granny who spilled hot McDonald's coffee on her crotch, burned herself and then sued [and won] the case for $12-Million. It's COFFEE you dumb witch! It is SUPPOSED to be hot!!

Dumb witch??? You should spend a few moments gathering facts. Then you will learn that the coffee that, as you say, is supposed to be hot wasn't, it was scalding hot. At the time they had already had some 700 cases and paid some 500 kUSD in compensation.

Then this case was picked up and abused by people wanting tort reform.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1344 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 31):

Rhetorical question - what percentage of your workforce needs to be non-Christian before you decide to call it a 'holiday party' and invite people to contribute items from their cultures?

Anything above zero.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 27):

I couldn't care less what some Norwegian government department does, but I contend that they could have avoided this entire mess by not viewing small efforts to make different people feel welcome as 'concessions' in the first place.

Right. They could have avoided this mess simply by being more respectful and inclusive. Perhaps that is somewhat ironic.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):
Seriously, if you're that bothered by the word "Christmas"... well...

That's a popular and poorly contrived strawman argument. Not getting your way at every single juncture does not equate to persecution.

Quoting nickh (Reply 32):

Then also, there was that (in)famous case about the granny who spilled hot McDonald's coffee on her crotch, burned herself and then sued [and won] the case for $12-Million. It's COFFEE you dumb witch! It is SUPPOSED to be hot!! Cupholders! Learn to use them! So as a result, MCD now serves coffee at a reduced temperature.

Way off topic, but I cannot even begin to tell you how many things in this statement are just flat-out wrong.

Please feel free to research this if you'd like (listed as Liebeck v McDonalds). The truth there is that McDonalds was indeed quite far beyond incredibly negligent in the way they handled this. In fact, they were offered several opportunities to pay for the medical costs associated with this incident (Mrs Liebeck suffered third degree burns across her pelvic region.) Additionally, product liability came into play as this coffee was actually served far above the temperature it was advertised to be, and improperly secured in the first place. Neither you nor anyone else would have had anyway of knowing this, prior to skin contact. But they did, or should have, hence the verdict.

It may also interest you to know that this was a comparative liability decision, so Liebeck's own negligence in spilling it was taken into account. There was also never a $12 mio award. It was 2.7, + 160,000; ultimately reduced to less than $600,000 all together.

This was not a frivolous suit, and the initial verdict is generally recognized in the legal community as having a rock solid basis in law.

I only go off on this tangent as it is pricelessly astounding how many people still believe what can only be described as utter bullshit on this one. I generally believe in limiting excess judgments, FYI, but this case is not even remotely in that category.

Just to illustrate not only how much people don't know about that case, but how much misinformation they believe, see if you can answer this. Was Mrs Liebeck (as is commonly believed) actually driving when she got burned?



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
They not only objected to having to eat pork (which I can understand), but objected to having to tolerate anyone else around them eating pork either.

To be fair, we don't know that to be true from what little KiwiRob told us.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
It sounds like it is those people who need a lesson in tolerance and diversity training, not their Norwegian hosts.

Their NORWEGIAN hosts? The folks who brought up the pork issue were also Norwegians, weren't they? Government employees?


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
Anything above zero.

So, if even one person, in an organization, is not Christian, the organization must accomadate that person during a Christmas party? Utter rubbish.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1344 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):

So, if even one person, in an organization, is not Christian, the organization must accomadate that person during a Christmas party?

Yes. And what's hard to understand about that? No one's saying they can't have christian food too. They just need to accommodate their minorities too.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Very Incosiderate on the part of the hosts and the non-chtistian guests, for not providing alternate dishes and for forcing the menu to be changed, it would be better for the non-christians not to attend such events, than force their views on others a suggestion to provide alternatives is ok but to fuss and force changes is not.

Would I as a muslim attend, YES! would not take offense to the stuff being served, would only eat salads and similar things, would not request menu change, would suggest alternate dishes for non-christians if they dont provide it no problem.

Would I like it to be called Holiday instead of Christmas to accomadate non-christians, NEVER!

Also if it were a muslim Eid get together and non-muslims were invited, depending on the company and its thinking you could have it all or nothing.

Quoting nickh (Reply 32):

Not all Hindus are vegetarian alot of them do eat poultry, game, fish and lamb but dont touch beef because cows are considered sacred and prok because pigs are impure ,however the secular ones even eat those.

[Edited 2012-11-22 19:58:16]

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

The trouble I have with this discussion is that all sorts of assumptions are being made on the basis of very flimsy facts. We have hearsay evidence of something that may or may not have happened.

We are told that due to complaints a decision was made. What we are not told is how the complaints were framed. What words were exchanged between the parties? Was there an outright threat to refuse to attend and lodge a claim for discrimination or was there a request for a broader menu? Was any effort made to provide such a menu? Was the original menu a set menu that the caterers were unwilling to change unless additional payment was made. So many questions but so few answers.

I don't think that the problem necessarily was that the party is a Christmas Party. If that were the case the question of the menu wouldn't be an issue at all. Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but they do recognise Jesus/ Isa as a prophet and have no objection to commemorating his birth as such.

I really don't see what is the problem with trying to be inclusive and why people ask "even if one person... should an accommodation be made?" If this is actually a Christmas Party, rather than simply an excuse to pig-out (or in this instance a desire to pig-in) then it might be useful to remember the bit about loving your neighbour as oneself.

Many people (of all faiths) believe that faith is sufficient to make them a true believer, but remember 1 Corinthians 13:2 - "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity1, I am nothing."

What is charity? It is love of God and for ones fellow human beings. It is not about putting 5NOK in a collection plate or donating second-hand clothes to an Opshop. It involves compassion and treating people as one would like to be treated. Anything else is pretty mean-spirited and un-Christian and I don't even pretend to be a Christian.

One irony in all this is that Jesus himself probably followed Mosaic law when it came to diet and food preparation. Yet in order to spread his word the founders of Christianity were willing to accommodate those who didn't. Even the Qur'an recognises that God or Allah made allowances for Christians. If God/ Allah can make allowances, surely mere mortals can.

Note 1: Many versions of the bible substitute the word love for charity.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

^ True, it could all have happened in jovial manner for all we know, with funny sarcasm and what not, and has been twisted into another thing here.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6130 posts, RR: 30
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2617 times:
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I have worked at a very big energy, multinational conglomerate based in Houston. We had operations in many, many countries, with different cultures, religious backgrounds and business ways. Our main Holiday parties were held at Houston´s Museum of Natural History.

If you think that in such a company you can throw a "Holiday" party without offering things in the menu that cater to all beliefs and cultures where you are present as a company and as an employer, then you probably are living in a different century.

This company even gave us TWO personal days a year to use to our discretion for our own religious purposes.

If you want to become a big multinational player, then, too bad, you will have to change your ways, even sofar as if you throw a party at the company´s homebase, it´s going to be a bit more complicated than your average "happy birthday" gig.

It´s not even a question of good manners, but it is a question of sound business practice.

I´m surprised by this thread. The Norwegians are very nice, accomodating people and I´m surprised no other menu choices were offered. Then again, as said before, we can only go by the OP´s assertions which given my experience, seem pretty biased.



MGGS
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1330 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
I don't think this is fair, if these people have an issue with the food they shouldn't attend.

In my opinion, I think it's fair...and certainly not the big deal some are making it out to be. Chances are this is the only time during the year when the employer/office/department does something celebratory for its staff...wouldn't you want the event to be as inclusive as possible so that 100% of the employees can enjoy? It's not like the employer is saying that folks cannot enjoy their traditional food outside of work (and if Norway is like Germany, there'll be plenty of traditional food at the Christmas markets). What the employer is saying is that, since this is our only chance of saying thanks to all of its staff, then lets make it so that everyone can participate and enjoy. It's not a matter of offending or not offending, rather simply a matter of making a decision that is fair for everyone.

One aspect that seems forgotten is the fact that the employer is a government department. Chances are the budget for this holiday party is not substantial and most likely they had to select only one vendor to cater the whole party. Maybe the vendor that could offer the "traditional" fare can't supply non-traditional dishes so they had to go with a vendor that offers more variety but nothing traditional.

Rant/
On a side note, as a non religious person, I find the whole topic of the "Christian" holidays rather confusing. Here I am, in the USA, in the midst of the "Christian" traditions and holidays while said "Christians" are doing all they can to commercialize both Thanksgiving and Christmas to the point that the meaning behind these "holy" days is lost. Sorry but from my point of view the "attack" on Christmas is not coming from other faiths or non-religious folks...it's coming from the "Christians" themselves who'd rather spend more time shopping for crap they don't really need than actually being thankful, enjoying time with their family, and giving thanks for all the crap they already have.
//Rant Over


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days ago) and read 2570 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 36):
The folks who brought up the pork issue were also Norwegians, weren't they?

No they were immigrants.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2596 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2540 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
after all we chose to move here so we should expect to follow the local traditions.

  

If only all immigrant minority groups thought like that rather than expect the majority to bend over backwards for them ...

I'm a migrant to Australia myself, and am part of an ethnic minority here, but I would absolutely not expect anyone to treat me any differently to everyone else. I try my best to adapt to the cultures and traditions of my adopted country (as well as language).

I think the world would be a more peaceful place if everyone lived in harmony, regardless of ethnicity or culture. Cultural diversity is great, so long as it is not used as a source of conflict. I think the message to all immigrants should be to blend in and accept local cultures and traditions, rather than expect others to bend over backwards to accommodate their differences.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's heritage and celebrating their own culture. But when that celebration clashes with members of a different heritage and culture, it becomes a problem, and I believe that the solution should not result in one having to bend over backwards to accommodate the other. One of my friends is a vegetarian, and when I have dinner parties, I will try to accommodate him by having a vegetarian option on the menu, but what I will not do is to strike meat off the menu altogether.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
It reminds of in high school when they started calling the massive tree in our school's foyer a "festive bush" (yes, they really called it that) instead of "Christmas tree", because my school had a high proportion of ESL (English as a Second Language) students who weren't Christian.


If that's not political correctness gone mad, I don't know what is ...

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):

  

It would seem that Western society is being forced to bend over backwards to accommodate the minority groups at the expense of their own culture (I wouldn't even go into beliefs as not everyone that celebrates Christmas is a Christian). And I think that's a shame.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
how EMPLOYERS ought to deal with ethnic or religious diversity in their workforce.

My answer is that they shouldn't. Why can't everyone, regardless of ethnicity, gender, culture or religion, be treated the same?

An invitation to a Christmas party is not by default discrimination against non-Christians, nor the serving of pork by default discrimination against Muslims (or anyone else that do not eat pork). As I understand it from the OP, the invitation to the Christmas party wasn't limited to Christians only, it was open to the entire workforce to attend - to which they had the option to decline.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1344 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
It reminds of in high school when they started calling the massive tree in our school's foyer a "festive bush" (yes, they really called it that) instead of "Christmas tree", because my school had a high proportion of ESL (English as a Second Language) students who weren't Christian.


If that's not political correctness gone mad, I don't know what is ...

True enough. The only thing that should ever be termed "festive bush" better be attached to the kind of women Superfly digs.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Just noticed that lamb was on offe rwhich is ok with all so the issue must have been kosher or halal doubt if it was vegan.

User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 43):
while said "Christians" are doing all they can to commercialize both Thanksgiving and Christmas to the point that the meaning behind these "holy" days is lost.

Aehm. SInce when, exactly, is Thanksgiving a Christian holiday?



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
My answer is that they shouldn't. Why can't everyone, regardless of ethnicity, gender, culture or religion, be treated the same?

An invitation to a Christmas party is not by default discrimination against non-Christians, nor the serving of pork by default discrimination against Muslims (or anyone else that do not eat pork). As I understand it from the OP, the invitation to the Christmas party wasn't limited to Christians only, it was open to the entire workforce to attend - to which they had the option to decline.

How exactly does the management of a government office inviting their employees to a party commemorating a specific religious faith constitute "treating everyone the same"? That action clearly and officially favors the Christians. Again I ask - at what percentage of non-Christians in the organization do you think the employer should expand the theme of the party beyond Christianity? What is your rational basis for that number?

As for your second paragraph, I disagree. Saying "You're welcome to join us" to non-Christians who are ostensibly already part of the "us" by virtue of being an employee sends a negative message loud and clear. That is why smart organizations (private or gov't) go out of their way to make everyone feel welcome by doing the inclusive things we've already talked about.

If they had done that from the outset in this case, my bet is that pork would be on the menu and people wouldn't be whining about how unfair it is that these immigrants ruined the party for the 'real' Norwegians.

[Edited 2012-11-23 06:35:28]

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
I'm a migrant to Australia myself, and am part of an ethnic minority here, but I would absolutely not expect anyone to treat me any differently to everyone else. I try my best to adapt to the cultures and traditions of my adopted country (as well as language).

Which is great, but in the long run the majority culture will change over time due to the 'spices' added to it by immigrants - which is also a good thing.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
It would seem that Western society is being forced to bend over backwards to accommodate the minority groups at the expense of their own culture (I wouldn't even go into beliefs as not everyone that celebrates Christmas is a Christian). And I think that's a shame.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes 'bending over backwards' for people...but to me it is the idea that there isn't room on the table for more than one culture that is the real shame.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2596 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2439 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 49):
How exactly does the management of a government office inviting their employees to a party commemorating a specific religious faith constitute "treating everyone the same"?

Because everyone is invited. The invitation isn't open only to persons of a specific gender, religion, or ethnic background. Just because Christmas is seen by some as a Christian celebration doesn't mean that non-Christians are not invited or otherwise not permitted to attend.

Besides, when have Christmas parties been overtly religious? It's about the food, drink, and good times these days - as well as presents.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 49):
That action clearly and officially favors the Christians. Again I ask - at what percentage of non-Christians in the organization do you think the employer should expand the theme of the party beyond Christianity?

At no time should a Christmas party be anything other than a Christmas party. Some employers may choose to hold a Christmas party for employees as reward for a year's hard work, and that party would be open to everyone. If some people choose not to attend, fine. If some people choose to be offended by it ... diddums.



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User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 53):
Because everyone is invited. The invitation isn't open only to persons of a specific gender, religion, or ethnic background. Just because Christmas is seen by some as a Christian celebration doesn't mean that non-Christians are not invited or otherwise not permitted to attend.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 53):
At no time should a Christmas party be anything other than a Christmas party. Some employers may choose to hold a Christmas party for employees as reward for a year's hard work, and that party would be open to everyone. If some people choose not to attend, fine. If some people choose to be offended by it ... diddums.

So your position is that when government offices - who theoretically consist of and work for a population that is free to be Christian or not - throw officially sponsored "Christmas parties" they are not deliberately favoring one religion over the others because everyone is "equally" invited?

I don't agree with that logic.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 53):

Besides, when have Christmas parties been overtly religious? It's about the food, drink, and good times these days - as well as presents.

Agreed, so WTF all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over making the minimal effort required to call it a "holiday party" and include other traditions?

[Edited 2012-11-23 08:19:45]

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2276 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 50):
which is also a good thing.

Depends on which side of the debate you are on.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days ago) and read 2273 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 50):
Which is great, but in the long run the majority culture will change over time due to the 'spices' added to it by immigrants - which is also a good thing.

I'm sure that's what we told the Native Americans at the time.

  



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2596 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2255 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 52):
So your position is that when government offices - who theoretically consist of and work for a population that is free to be Christian or not - throw officially sponsored "Christmas parties" they are not deliberately favoring one religion over the others because everyone is "equally" invited?

Correct.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 52):
Agreed, so WTF all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over making the minimal effort required to call it a "holiday party" and include other traditions?

Because it isn't just any old holiday party, it's the Christmas holiday party, and each country has its own traditions as to what's being served at that party. They shouldn't have to change it for anyone. Join in, or not. It's each person's individual choice.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 55):

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 52):
So your position is that when government offices - who theoretically consist of and work for a population that is free to be Christian or not - throw officially sponsored "Christmas parties" they are not deliberately favoring one religion over the others because everyone is "equally" invited?

Correct.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 52):
Agreed, so WTF all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over making the minimal effort required to call it a "holiday party" and include other traditions?

Because it isn't just any old holiday party, it's the Christmas holiday party, and each country has its own traditions as to what's being served at that party. They shouldn't have to change it for anyone. Join in, or not. It's each person's individual choice.

Fair enough, I disagree with this but appreciate your willingness to articulate your position sensibly.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12388 posts, RR: 47
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2187 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
It is, however, hypocritical to join a celebration of the birth of Christ if you adhere so strictly to another religion that you "have" to spoil other people's Christmas dinner because your religion forbids its main ingredient.

Seriously, I've yet to attend any work Christmas event that has anything to do with religion.

I'm an atheist but I'll be enjoying Christmas with my family. Religion will have nothing to do with it.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):

Seriously, I've yet to attend any work Christmas event that has anything to do with religion.

Same here, it's all about the booze, the food and the off chance that you might get your end away, it's just a shame that in this instance some ffffd'up religious types screwed the food part up for everyone. The odd thing (heard this yesterday) is last year the same people were happy to attend and ate what they could, guess who isn't going to be much liked around the office for the next year or so, nice way to fit in.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2146 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
So now 140 or so people will not be able to enjoy a traditional Christmas meal with their co-workers because a couple of religious zealots have objected. I don't think this is fair, if these people have an issue with the food they shouldn't attend.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
To date I've never been to a Norwegian Christmas Party where alternatives to traditional food have been offered, I don't have problem with that, after all it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas Party.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
So, why should an alternative be offered, it's a traditional Norwegian Christmas meal, Norwegians are very fond of these traditions and don't like anyone messing with them.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Not just muslim, jewish as well, in this day and age the way meat is slaughtered for these religious groups is disgusting, we have rules for the humane treatment of animals, so no reason why religion should negate these rules.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 21):

We can allow immigrants and religions folk their core beliefs up to a certain point, we should not have to change our behavior to accommodate them.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 44):
No they were immigrants.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
Depends on which side of the debate you are on.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
Same here, it's all about the booze, the food and the off chance that you might get your end away, it's just a shame that in this instance some ffffd'up religious types screwed the food part up for everyone. The odd thing (heard this yesterday) is last year the same people were happy to attend and ate what they could, guess who isn't going to be much liked around the office for the next year or so, nice way to fit in.

Sounds to me Rob that your real issue is the larger one of Muslim immigration to Norway. Perhaps you should just start a thread about that.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
it's all about the booze, the food and the off chance that you might get your end away

No it is not. It is meeting in a different environment.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3836 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Sounds strange to me. I work at a government run office and here there are offerings in adittional to the tradittional Norwegian christmas foods for those who are of a different relegion . Usually turkey and / or chicken. Those who are vegetarian get the green stuff or / and fish ( usually salmon ).

If it's true, then it's a bad managment desicion. This thing could have been solved very easely without depriving anyone of their christmas traditions.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
Sounds to me Rob that your real issue is the larger one of Muslim immigration to Norway. Perhaps you should just start a thread about that.

Since I'm not Norwegian why should I care who immigrates to Norway, I just think that anyone immigrating anywhere should forget about what their life was like where they came from, if they want to keep living that lifestyle why the bloody hell did they move in the first place.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 62):
if they want to keep living that lifestyle why the bloody hell did they move in the first place.

In case you haven't heard, the rest of the world is not as safe as Norway is.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 28
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 39):
Very Incosiderate on the part of the hosts and the non-chtistian guests, for not providing alternate dishes and for forcing the menu to be changed,

Eating pork is a big part of my culture. Someone telling me that such an important part of my culture somehow involves the consumption of a "dirty". "sick" and "diseased" meat is offensive. And yet somehow this offense to my culture goes on unpunished all the time. How would you react if I got invited to a feast in Pakistan and for some reason started saying the food was sick or diseased and refused to eat?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
In case you haven't heard, the rest of the world is not as safe as Norway is.

That's fine but when they move they need to adjust, the problem is many don't, they expect their hosts to accept them as they are.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1990 times:
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Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
the rest of the world is not as safe as Norway is.

No it isn't, Not as safe as Australia, USA, UK and many other places yet many hundreds of thousands of migrants move from those unsafe places to the healthier more prosperous and importantly safer places.
What happens when they get there... they seem hell bent on making their new home into the intolerant backward society they left behind.
Doesn't make any sense to me!



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User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 66):
What happens when they get there... they seem hell bent on making their new home into the intolerant backward society they left behind.

And make life worse for the unfortunate original inhabitants of the countries who are forced to accept them. The west should no longer accept refugees, it would be much better spending the money which we waste trying to integrate these ingrates on fixing where they came from.


User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 64):
Eating pork is a big part of my culture. Someone telling me that such an important part of my culture somehow involves the consumption of a "dirty". "sick" and "diseased" meat is offensive. And yet somehow this offense to my culture goes on unpunished all the time. How would you react if I got invited to a feast in Pakistan and for some reason started saying the food was sick or diseased and refused to eat?

Well, after spending half of the evening reading the first 64 replies.........I finally come to one I can "relate to"; I eat pork; pork chops, pork "this & that", but especially HAM! Yummy, yummy ! I LOVE ham ! I bought a ham just before Thanksgiving, and we took it with us to Miss Arlie's sons house in Illinois when we went up there Wednesday; as John and his wife both had to work on Thursday, (Thanksgiving day), John took us out to eat a FABLOUS turkey dinner Thursday evening; when they both came home from work on Friday evening, Miss A had cooked up a great HAM dinner, with potatoes "au gratin" ? ( sliced, and baked in oven with lots of cheese on them) everyone again, loved that meal; Saturday we returned home, and Miss A brought the remaining ham back home; I had ham again Saturday, and again on Sunday; by today, I was down to one measly ham sandwich, (and a bunch of fat and scraps for the front porch dogs) (Steamer and Blackie); so I told Miss A........ when I'm in Terre Haute tomorrow getting 2 sixteen ft pieces of 2" angle iron, I'm gonna stop by Wal Mart and pick up........another HAM ! Now......as you can probably tell, I really LOVE ham ! (been eating it for, lets see here,............in 3 more weeks.........80 years now; so all of that "nonsense" about pork being "dirty"......."unclean"........etc. etc. etc., you know what that is ? It's "somebodies" "opinion"..........(an opinion which A. they may be entitled to; and B. one to which I don't necessarily agree) The larger point being, we didn't find it necessary to get into a huge "Pi***ng contest" about whether it's "cool" to eat ham.)

If this LONG thread "proves" anything, it's that people on Non-Aviation forum just LOVE to argue with each other ! ( and we EVEN had that LONG dissertation about "hot coffee spilled on little old ladies crotch" ( ouch !!! )

Everyone has seen that "Big Blue Marble" photograph of planet Earth, taken from the I.S.S. right ? ............every time I see it, I stare at it for about 10 minutes, all the time thinking (to myself), "who'd ever guess that "down there" are over six BILLION people, and that five billion, nine hundred and ninety nine million, nine hundred and ninety nine thousand of "them" don't "agree" with the "rest of them" !

Then I wonder (to my self again)..........."I wonder why I spent all that time reading all of those arguments" ?


[quote=stealthz,reply=66]No it isn't, Not as safe as Australia, USA, UK and many other places yet many hundreds of thousands of migrants move from those unsafe places to the healthier more prosperous and importantly safer places.
What happens when they get there... they seem hell bent on making their new home into the intolerant backward society they left behind.
Doesn't make any sense to me!

I've been thinking the same thing for years now, Stealthz !

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 67):
And make life worse for the unfortunate original inhabitants of the countries who are forced to accept them. The west should no longer accept refugees, it would be much better spending the money which we waste trying to integrate these ingrates on fixing where they came from.

Lol ! Been thinking about that too, Rob !

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 64):

Your post makes no sense as I said it was wrong on part of the NON-christians to impose their views and have the menu chnaged, you can eat pork all you like but if you invite others keep food suitable for them too, its ethics and courtesy, in this case it was probaly muslims, it could have been vegatarians or jews, but maybe it would not be an issue then.

If you invite me to dinner and there is nothing I can eat, is that not inconsiderate?

BTW secular muslims would serve you booze and maybe even pork at their parties in their muslim countries, restaurants in atleast one Gulf state I think Bahrain are allowed to sell dishes containing pork and booze too is available in a few others openly keeping in mind YOUR tastes, the booze ofcourse even their own drink at times, but inn Dubai locals cannot buy it is what I have heard, so if true again castering to need of expat community really.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 66):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 67):

I also dont understand why your countries allow in such people, ask your governments, what are they thinking.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

I again raise the question of a reliable independent witness to what actually transpired. So far we have the unsubstantiated claim, based on hearsay, without any evidence, that decent upstanding people were deprived of their rights to enjoy a pig out as they chose. If the claims are true, then I agree, people should be free to enjoy a piss-up and pig-out in any way they choose, if it is a private event and the participants are paying for it.

The problem is that we are presented with a government department that is supposed to include all citizens and not just those who want to get pissed, possibly screw that dish in accounts and stuff their faces. If people want to do that I have no complaint whatsoever as long as they do not expect state or the tax payer to cover the bill.

At no point in this thread has it been made clear that those who choose to attend would pay the bill and at no point has it been made clear that any offer was made to include a menu suitable to all. The possibly intended inference has been that a minority has imposed its will on a majority. That inference may be true, but at no stage have we been presented with any evidence to support the allegation.

I do not deny that it may be true. But I admit surprise that not even a link from the gutter press has been offered as substantiation.

Until reliable independent verification is offered I will put this down to an urban myth.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 1766 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 70):


Until reliable independent verification is offered I will put this down to an urban myth.

My friend isn't a member of a.net, I very much doubt he intends to join just to say what I have already said.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 49):
How exactly does the management of a government office inviting their employees to a party commemorating a specific religious faith constitute "treating everyone the same"?

Because everyone is invited and free to join as long as they want to. If it is anything like the place I work, the company also has small events for Diwali, Hanukkah. I also remember getting an email about Eid, which correctly had a "Happy Eid" subject line and not "Happy Holidays" or such BS. Do I feel offended? Of course not, and I am free to attend any of the above and snack on traditional food made for the occasion. If I do not like the food or cannot eat the food, I will either not sample it or not go at all. Why can't the same be done for Christmas? You don't celebrate Christmas, do not attend or have the salad or whatever your religion allows you to eat.

In today's workplaces, people are trying to include colleagues of different faiths to their religious festivities, it gives people a chance to get to know their colleagues' traditions, its not something that is bad or should be avoided, it should be encouraged! I consider myself more of an atheist, but I don't go raining on other people's parades and I will still call the winter holiday Christmas, because this is what it is. I do not see any non-Christian celebrations being re-branded for the sake of not offending non-believers, they are actually encouraged. Why can't the same apply for Christmas?


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 71):
My friend isn't a member of a.net, I very much doubt he intends to join just to say what I have already said.

If such a case happened, or is alleged to have have happened in Australia or Britain, for example, you could bet your life savings that it would be reported in the media. Whatever views we may have of the yellow press, they would report it, whether it was true or not, simply because it sells papers.
You know that, I know that. It does not require A.net membership to know that or for any one else who is a member to provide a link.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2596 posts, RR: 5
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 1706 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 70):
So far we have the unsubstantiated claim, based on hearsay, without any evidence,

I agree that there has yet to be any evidence apart from the word of an a.netter's friend that this incident occurred as described. But I would consider that if what has been reported is true, then it's an outrage, regardless of whether the individual participants had to pay for it or if it was paid for by the government department in question.

Where I used to work, the employer would foot the bill for an annual Christmas party. Whether that's true of all organisations or not, I don't know. But I also fail to understand why, if the employer did in fact pay for the party, that it has any effect on the issue at hand. I believe the issue here is not necessarily about food, but the greater issue of the majority suborinating their culture and traditions in fear of offending the minority.



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User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 28
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 69):
if you invite others keep food suitable for them too, its ethics and courtesy,

I do not eat Halal meat - find the way the animals are slaughtered disgusting. So you are saying if I go to a home in Pakistan and someone offers me some lamb, it is OK for me to ask for some lamb killed in a more humane way?



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User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12388 posts, RR: 47
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 1691 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 52):
So your position is that when government offices - who theoretically consist of and work for a population that is free to be Christian or not - throw officially sponsored "Christmas parties" they are not deliberately favoring one religion over the others because everyone is "equally" invited?

I don't agree with that logic.

The only failure here is the totally incorrect assumption that an office "Christmas Party" is a religious event. It's clearly not. It's just an office party that happens to take place somewhere around Christmas.   

I've lived and worked in the Middle East for years. All the Muslims in our offices were always more than happy to join the Christmas parties and even happier to be given two days off work at Christmas. Offended they most certainly weren't.

Seriously, this whole PC issue is complete and utter bollocks.



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User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
I do not eat Halal meat - find the way the animals are slaughtered disgusting. So you are saying if I go to a home in Pakistan and someone offers me some lamb, it is OK for me to ask for some lamb killed in a more humane way?

Maybe not, but if you worked for me (I actually am in charge of a government function of about 150 people) I would know if you had a problem with Halal or whatever else (and make sure we had an alternative) because I'd ask for feedback on the menu in advance. And I would call it a 'holiday party' even though I don't even believe in anything holy myself and couldn't care less if it were called Christmas or Kwanzaa (or the pagan winter festival that it probably is in reality)..simply because I don't want anyone to feel left out and I don't have time to throw a bunch of different parties.

If that makes me some kind of a sellout or pussy in some of your eyes, I can live with it.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 28
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 77):
Maybe not, but if you worked for me (I actually am in charge of a government function of about 150 people) I would know if you had a problem with Halal or whatever else (and make sure we had an alternative) because I'd ask for feedback on the menu in advance

Fat chance. If I told someone at my workplace I do not eat Halal (or Kosher meat - same principle) I would likely be referred to HR for investigation into potential bigotry and get into serious trouble.



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User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):

Fat chance. If I told someone at my workplace I do not eat Halal (or Kosher meat - same principle) I would likely be referred to HR for investigation into potential bigotry and get into serious trouble.

I'm sorry to hear that!


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
So you are saying if I go to a home in Pakistan and someone offers me some lamb, it is OK for me to ask for some lamb killed in a more humane way?

Not at all, but I must commend you for the attempt to try and twist the argument in your favour with that illogical analogy, your hosts will just wonder because its nothing like the halal / forbidden thing being dealt with in this thread, you will more than likely be attending parties of the liberal westernised elite and even they will laugh it off as a joke.

Maybe the non-muslims in Pakistan have their own abbatoirs but I really doubt if they use humane methods there either.

Again I would like to say here IF true what the non-christians did was NOT right, they had the choice of not attending or just eating whatever else they could nibble on, however the not so rigid ones would have had the lamb that was part of the menu as well no matter how it was dealt / cooked and even had the booze.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
it is OK for me to ask for some lamb killed in a more humane way?

At least you are honest enough to accept that killing animals is not humane per se. It is all a question of degree. Typically in Western Countries animals are required to be stunned before killing. There is no guarantee that the animal is rendered unconscious on the first attempt and it sometimes requires several goes of the stun gun, during which time the animal is conscious of the harm it is suffering. Yet a professional shochet will render the animal dead within two seconds. What is more cruel? Speedy death by shechita or repeated stunning before killing?

Is it safe for me to assume, given your insistence on the humane treatment of animals and despite your support of local cultural norms, that you have always opposed bull-fighting? If you are opposed then I commend you on your consistency. While there is a difference between Spanish and Portuguese bull-fighting, in both instances the animal is tormented to entertain the crowd and ultimately killed. Those Spaniards who support the tradition are at least honest enough to enjoy the spectacle of death in public while the Portuguese enjoy killing the animal out of sight. I am not sure whether one approach is more humane than the other. I doubt the bull cares and if he did his views are discounted.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 28
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 81):

Is it safe for me to assume, given your insistence on the humane treatment of animals and despite your support of local cultural norms, that you have always opposed bull-fighting?

Not only have I always been opposed but I am actually ashamed that my country is associated with such barbaric acts. Oh, and I don't (not in this instance, not ever) support "local cultural norms" for the heck of it. I have a t-shirt with an image of a bull-fight and a slogan underneath it that encapsulates my philosophy n life: "Tradition - just because you have always done it doesn't mean it is not incredibly stupid."

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 81):
while the Portuguese enjoy killing the animal out of sight

Most Portuguese don't, but unfortunately there is a small minority (culturally more attuned to Spain in many instances) that does, and the rest of us just haven't found a way to stop them from doing it.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 81):
I am not sure whether one approach is more humane than the other.

It is not.



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User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12214 posts, RR: 35
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1399 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
The problem here isn't pork...it's that the leadership of a diverse organization is throwing a "Christmas Party" in the first place. Is that going to be held before or after their "Celebration of Being White", or the "Gays Only Retreat"?
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 31):
Rhetorical question - what percentage of your workforce needs to be non-Christian before you decide to call it a 'holiday party' and invite people to contribute items from their cultures?

Norway is a Constitutional Christian country. Different place, different norms from what you're used to here.

Quoting cmf (Reply 60):
No it is not. It is meeting in a different environment.

You've obviously never been to a Norwegian Christmas party  



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