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Egypt Bans Dissent  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3993 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20451208

Quote:
Egypt's President Mohammed Mursi has issued a declaration banning challenges to his decrees, laws and decisions.

The declaration also says no court can dissolve the constituent assembly, which is drawing up a new constitution.

President Mursi also sacked the chief prosecutor and ordered the retrial of people accused of attacking protesters when ex-President Mubarak held office.

Egyptian opposition leader Mohammed ElBaradei accused Mr Mursi of acting like a "new pharaoh".

So much for democracy and the rule of law in Egypt. Either the people will rise up against him and do a 'Mubarak' on him, or we may be seeing another Iran form up.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1513 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3981 times:

Here we go again...another Arab Spring in a few months?

Marc


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3946 times:

Is Mursi becoming a clone of Mubarak? Looks like it, methinks.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So much for democracy and the rule of law in Egypt. Either the people will rise up against him and do a 'Mubarak' on him, or we may be seeing another Iran form up.

Wow. Just wow. But I'm not surprised.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Here we go again...another Arab Spring in a few months?

I wouldn't be surprised, but they deserve it. Honestly, you know who you're voting for when you vote for them.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
Is Mursi becoming a clone of Mubarak? Looks like it, methinks.

Islamism at it's worst. Or at it's only. Honestly, stop it with these religious ruled government!



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Honestly, stop it with these religious ruled government!

Agreed! I don't understand why religion needs to come into play with everything. Look what happened to the woman who died in Ireland because of a religious rule banning against abortion.

This religious crap really needs to stop. It throws common sense out the window.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Agreed! I don't understand why religion needs to come into play with everything.


Unfortunately, Islam is not just a religion, it is a political movement. When a religion's tenets spell out the rules of life in minute detail, that religion becomes ingrained in all facets of life.

And yes, I know that there are other religions and/or sects that look to control all facets of life, but you don't see Mennonites blowing themselves up.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Islamism at it's worst. Or at it's only

Mubarak was not an Islamist.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):


Unfortunately, Islam is not just a religion, it is a political movement. When a religion's tenets spell out the rules of life in minute detail, that religion becomes ingrained in all facets of life.

And yes, I know that there are other religions and/or sects that look to control all facets of life, but you don't see Mennonites blowing themselves up.

You've refuted your own point. Other religions and/or sects have plenty of political activism and an all-encompassing set of rules about life is something almost all religions have, it just so happens that Islam is in a region that is extremely volatile politically and its current theology is shaped accordingly. There have been periods of religious calm in the Middle East as well as there have been periods of tumult. Furthermore most Islamic nations have only recently been brought onto the world stage and held to standards of modern, global society and as such the institutions that moderate political extremism in the United States and elsewhere are weak or work in favor of the theocratic movements.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
You've refuted your own point. Other religions and/or sects have plenty of political activism and an all-encompassing set of rules about life is something almost all religions have, it just so happens that Islam is in a region that is extremely volatile politically and its current theology is shaped accordingly.

He has not. While other religions have their political adherents and agendas, only Islam explicitly states in its scripture that the church (or mosque) and state should be one and the same, and that any government not run as an Islamic theocracy enforcing religious law as civil and criminal law cannot be legitimate. There is no parallel in any other religion.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
You've refuted your own point.


No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

Islam is as much a political system as it is a religion. You can't really say that about the other major religions of the world.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Mubarak was not an Islamist.


Mubarak was a political animal who used religion when he saw advantage in using religion.

Mursi appears to be religious and is backed by the religious.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Furthermore most Islamic nations have only recently been brought onto the world stage and held to standards of modern, global society and as such the institutions that moderate political extremism in the United States and elsewhere are weak or work in favor of the theocratic movements.


It's a very good point, and I've argued it before. But, it doesn't change the fact that these nations are on the world stage and they make the world more dangerous, not less.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Mubarak was not an Islamist.

I never was talking about Hosni?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
And yes, I know that there are other religions and/or sects that look to control all facets of life, but you don't see Mennonites blowing themselves up.

Precisely. A little religion doesn't hurt, except when you have to ram it down someone's throat.....with the barrel of a rifle.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

fr8mech's point was pretty clear.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinevenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1438 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

How is the new boss? Same as the old boss.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
I never was talking about Hosni?

You were quoting a post that referred to Morsi being "a clone" of Mubarak. Which while it may very well be what comes about, is not a result of Morsi's Islamism, necessarily.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):

No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

Depends on how you define "rarely," and depends on how you define "ruled by." Islam creates the political ideologies, but the outcomes are dependent on way more than that, and degrees of separation between religion and politics vary from country to country (though seem to be way closer than in Europe and the United States.)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):

Mubarak was a political animal who used religion when he saw advantage in using religion.

Mursi appears to be religious and is backed by the religious.

True enough. Doesn't make much of a difference as to quality of governance on its own, though.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):

It's a very good point, and I've argued it before. But, it doesn't change the fact that these nations are on the world stage and they make the world more dangerous, not less.

Some of them certainly do, but I sincerely doubt that that Islam as a faith has much to do with it. The pattern I see in the Arab Spring tumult is that the countries tend to be run in a kind of clan/patronage system where the leader's friends and relatives form a core faction/powerbase and benefit accordingly; it's hard to bring pluralism and self-determination into that without turning lots and lots of people against each other. It's very far from a clear parallel but it reminds me a bit of caudillos in South America. Israel and the United States form a convenient distraction and/or complication and/or excuse.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So much for democracy and the rule of law in Egypt. Either the people will rise up against him and do a 'Mubarak' on him, or we may be seeing another Iran form up.


We all knew it was going to happen. They freely elected themselves another dictator. I wonder if this one will be better. The trouble with a theocracy isn't so much the lack of a moral compass, but rather that the moral compass always points north, even while your holy shock troops are raping and killing.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6900 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting venus6971 (Reply 11):
How is the new boss? Same as the old boss.

Same with post-Gaddafi Libya, will be same for Syria and any other country which has had a civil uprising recently. That is the biggest reason for not getting involved at all in any of these countries. No point endorsing another nutcase to replace the old nutcase. Given that they all seem hellbent on screwing up their own nations, may as well leave them to it with no outside involvement


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

Anyone surprised by this hasn't been paying attention to the Middle East for the last, well,... forever. We are still a long way from any Arab country adopting a real representative government based on the Rule of Law and acceptance of pluralism and respect for human rights. Maybe a nice little kingdom or perhaps a totalitarian theocracy would work out better for the Egyptians.


WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3684 times:

Welcome to the world of an Islamic state

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 14):
Anyone surprised by this hasn't been paying attention to the Middle East for the last, well,... forever.

It's kinda difficult to do that when its the same old crap they pull, but on different day. People get bored of it and just move on.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

This is a bad move indeed but I'm not gonna be so fast to write off Egypt. We can't expect a 1st world democracy out of the blue, hopefully the new Egypt will be a step in the right direction. They have been helping out with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
This is a bad move indeed but I'm not gonna be so fast to write off Egypt.

Exactly. The usual suspects will (or rather, have) of course wail and cry over the supposed creation of another theocracy, but the rest of us are probably going to remember how the Egyptians ousted Mubarak and realise that they haven't lost too much of that fervour:

Quote:
Anti-government protests flare across Egypt

Protesters have spent Friday night in Tahrir Square in the Egyptian capital, Cairo, to show their anger at President Mursi's adoption of sweeping new powers.

More than 100 people have been injured in clashes across Egypt after President Mohammed Mursi passed a decree giving himself almost unchecked power.

However Mr Mursi says he is leading Egypt to "freedom and democracy".



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
Exactly. The usual suspects will (or rather, have) of course wail and cry over the supposed creation of another theocracy, but the rest of us are probably going to remember how the Egyptians ousted Mubarak and realise that they haven't lost too much of that fervour:

Great. So they can elect themselves an other "proper Islamic" dictator again and again. Perhaps, one day, they will realize that their personal idea of "proper Islamic" differs from those of their neighbors enough that maybe it's best that the government not be anyone's idea of "proper Islamic."

Perhaps one day...


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

While Morsi has his supporters much of the opposition on the streets is coming from those who do not want a "proper Islamic" state. They are and have been calling for greater democracy and freedom for all Egyptians. Those are the people we should be encouraging, rather than smugly saying, "I told you so."

Couple of points to remember. Despite the protestations of the judiciary of interference with their independence, the judiciary remains in large part those appointed by Mubarak. They have been trying to block the work of the Constituent Assembly charged with drafting a new constitution. Second, Morsi has reiterated that once the Assembly has finished drafting a constitution it will be put to the vote in a referendum.

It remains to be seen if this will happen, so it may be premature to bemoan the rise of a theocratic dictatorship. The best guarantee against that happening is the continued self-organisation of the people. We might also like to remember that democracy did not just fall into place in Western Countries but arose out of decades of struggle. Why would we expect a perfect democracy in Egypt when the West was willing to prop up a regime in which the real independence of political parties was stifled?

While there is a danger that Morsi may attempt to consolidate his position, I do note that the extension of immunity to members of the Constituent Assembly is similar to the immunity enjoyed by members of parliament in Western Countries. Nor can a judge in the West typically dissolve Parliament.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
only Islam explicitly states in its scripture that the church (or mosque) and state should be one and the same, and that any government not run as an Islamic theocracy enforcing religious law as civil and criminal law cannot be legitimate. There is no parallel in any other religion.

Really? I guess my country isn't Islamic   

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
You can't really say that about the other major religions of the world.

And oh, how many non-Islamic countries still have an official 'state religion' ?

Back to Egypt... the people of Egypt deserve better after all they've been through... but given it has just come out of a long dictatorship... it'll take a while before it all settles down into a proper new direction... but then, Morsi making these laws, are just making it... errr... potentially way skewed! I'll just wait and see...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 21):
Really? I guess my country isn't Islamic

Be happy about that. Most countries bow to the state religion (if they have one), but don't take everything in it fortunately.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 21):
And oh, how many non-Islamic countries still have an official 'state religion' ?

How many of them restrict the rights of those who are not of the state religion, in civil and criminal matters, impose additional taxes on them like the Jizya?

Anyway, The point is not an Islam bash-fest. But we can't fight the problem unless we recognize that the main reason why we have a big problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that there are some pretty radical things in the Quran and Hadiths that encourage it. The same might be said about other religions, but not to the same extent - which is why we don't have as many problems with fundamentalists of those religions.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Perhaps one day...

That describes our own long and painful ways to democracy just perfectly.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
But we can't fight the problem unless we recognize that the main reason why we have a big problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that there are some pretty radical things in the Quran and Hadiths that encourage it. The same might be said about other religions, but not to the same extent - which is why we don't have as many problems with fundamentalists of those religions.

I disagree with the "encourage"... I don't feel encouraged to do whatever they do...
Extent, also, I disagree... I've seen some pretty bad fundamentalists from the faiths here... but one thing we can agree on, they're all pretty damn freaky, and I hope none of them gets into any government!



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
The same might be said about other religions, but not to the same extent - which is why we don't have as many problems with fundamentalists of those religions.

I guarantee you the Bible has at least as many passages that can be taken to promote violent totalitarianism. And do. I give you the Dark Ages. And I will point out that during the Dark Ages, the Mid-East had an open, ecumenical, academic and philosophical culture with technological advances such as the development of the telescope (well, looking glasses) well before Europe invented them.

Meanwhile, Europe had the Catholic Church and the Inquisition.

The Holy Text of any religion is just paper. It is only as power as the people who wield it. The problem right now is that the people of the Mid-East are allowing their religion to govern them, rather than vice-versa. There is nothing inherent to Islam that makes it more prone to lead to dictatorship than Christianity or Judaism. It is the fact that the people in these areas are so willing to bow to authority in general that they allow religion to assume that role.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Egypt is about to go bankrupt should the present situation continue.
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/node/1266716

GOOGLE TRANSLATE
Member of the Board of the Stock Exchange: the market is experiencing its worst period in its history
...
Predicted «reconcile» Egypt announces bankruptcy within 3 months in the case of the continuation of the current situation, without taking serious measures to save the current position.

Sunday's losses on the Egyptian Exchange's EGX30 index are among the biggest since the turbulent days and weeks after the ouster of authoritarian leader Husni Mubarak last year, AP said.
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/25/251743.html

Demonstrators gather for more protests in Tahrir Square in Cairo.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 12
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 21):
And oh, how many non-Islamic countries still have an official 'state religion' ?

Having a official religion is quite different from having a religious government.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Having a official religion is quite different from having a religious government.

There's a difference between governing by Sharia/Fundamentalism and just saying there's a religion in this country.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Egypt crisis: Morsi refuses to back down
Judges say Morsi has failed to end the impasse

13:30 Back on Tahrir, Ahram Online journalist Zeinab El-Guindy reports numbers are increasing, with a diverse cross-section of society protesting against the declaration.
"Leave Morsi" and "Morsi you coward, you agent for the Americans" are the main chants, El-Guindy adds, while anti-Brotherhood banners are being hung over the square.

Egypt’s Islamist President Refuses To Back Down From His Decrees Granting Himself Near Absolute Powers

Huge protest at Tahrir, Cairo. Watch the live feeds:

http://bambuser.com/v/3181978
 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Having a official religion is quite different from having a religious government.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 28):
There's a difference between governing by Sharia/Fundamentalism and just saying there's a religion in this country.

On the surface this may be true, but do not forget that the constitutions of some western countires, nominally democratic, require the head of state to profess a certain religion. These countries tend to be those where no one has the right to a say in choosing the head of state.

In the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, for example, the Queen is head of the Church in England, despite whatever the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish might want.

In Norway the Constitution provides that its values are based on Christian (and humanitarian) values and establishes a State church.

These are but two examples. In both instances the law does more than simply state that there is a religion in this country. They state - in law- that a praticular religion is preferred over any other and establish a state appproved ideology. Now it may be fortunate that the people who administer those states are broad minded. But what if they weren't? The law, as stated, would support their bias. Is this acceptable on a (misguided) belief that people in Western societies are somehow more prgressive and rational than people who live elsewhere?

[Edited 2012-11-27 09:06:57]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 29):
"Leave Morsi" and "Morsi you coward, you agent for the Americans" are the main chants

One might be surprised at this, but I don't recall Obama or anyone in his administration coming out and condemning in any way Morsi's decree. Of course Obama is on record saying that he wishes he did not have an opposition to deal with.

Result: Egyptians are feeling that Obama approves of Morsi's power grab. Good job.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Of course Obama is on record saying that he wishes he did not have an opposition to deal with.

I highly doubt this (harmless) comment has anything to do with it.

And honestly, I was surprised myself to see this chant. I guess anything they hate is just synonymous with America



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3050 times:

Didn't Obama come up with some big money for Mursi and the MB after he got elected in place of Mubarak?

   

Protests are still going strong n Cairo and other cities in Egypt tonight.

Live feed in Arabic: http://www.ontv-live.com/live/



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
Didn't Obama come up with some big money for Mursi and the MB after he got elected in place of Mubarak?

The US (for some strange reason) just gives money to a bunch of countries, including Egypt, so I'm not sure if it's really the President's fault



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
One might be surprised at this, but I don't recall Obama or anyone in his administration coming out and condemning in any way Morsi's decree.

Might have had something to do with Egypt playing mediator between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. Also, a State Department spokesperson did have a few remarks about the matter, although it was more of a really weak discouragement than a condemnation as I recall.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
The US (for some strange reason) just gives money to a bunch of countries, including Egypt, so I'm not sure if it's really the President's fault

One reason that we give money to Egypt is that it was a treaty obligation to do so in 1978- it's one reason why Israel's security concerns have shifted more towards the Palestinian and Lebanese terror groups and other non-state organizations rather than the Arab states that are its direct neighbors. In terms of military suppliers I think Egypt had already been moving out of the strictly Soviet camp by then anyway (though I'm not totally sure about that.) Foreign aid on other matters is a different question and discussion.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Result: Egyptians are feeling that Obama approves of Morsi's power grab. Good job.

Would things have been any different under a different President? We don't know but we can speculate.

The previous administration was fearful of change in Egypt. The last thing they wanted was "democracy" because it may have resulted in a victory for the Islamic Brotherhood. There are plenty who are happy to say "I told you so."

I think it fair to say that Obama wants to ensure the best for America whatever happens just as his predecessor did. Whether that benefits ordinary Egyptians is open to question. but I doubt that you will find a single politician in the US who places the interests of ordinary Egyptians ahead of the interests of the US. If they did, I suspect that you would be the first to condemn them.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
I guess anything they hate is just synonymous with America

During my visits to Alexandria and Cairo I have been privileged to meet people with different views on how Egypt should develop and its relationship with the US. There is no uniform view. Some love the ideal that the US represents while condemning the application of policy in particular instances. Some welcome the ideas of liberalisation while feeling aggrieved at the disdain that is sometimes projected - the arrogant assumption that Western Ideals are intrinsically superior. Some are charitable and suggest such views are based on ignorance and a misunderstanding of how the people of Egypt in particular, and Muslims in general feel. But it is not just Muslims that feel this way. Coptic Christian friends have also expressed disquiet. Others are less charitable, just as you would expect in any country.

Please do not get me wrong and think that I think intolerance to any people is acceptable. I don't. But I am lucky enough to have lived in a number of countries and realise that whatever cultural or historical differences we have, most people want the same things.

The reality is that there is no uniform love or condemnation of the US or any other country. Some may hate. Others may love. But I can only go on what I heard and that is that it is not for others to decide what occurs in Egypt, any more than outsiders should dictate what happens in my country or the US.

[Edited 2012-11-27 12:43:48]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
Didn't Obama come up with some big money for Mursi and the MB after he got elected in place of Mubarak?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
The US (for some strange reason) just gives money to a bunch of countries, including Egypt, so I'm not sure if it's really the President's fault

Well Its something we really shouldn't have given anyway since we're in massive debt   

Morsi is now the new Gaddafi.....of course Gaddafi didn't rule with the Quran but both Morsi and Gaddafi refer to themselves as the "guide of the revolution." Look for Egypt to be a very awkward state to do business with in the next 40 years   



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently onlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 32
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 37):
Morsi is now the new Gaddafi.....of course Gaddafi didn't rule with the Quran but both Morsi and Gaddafi refer to themselves as the "guide of the revolution."

There is no comparison, not yet. In fact, Morsi seems ready to back down partly here over the last day or two and compromise after the protests--which is a huge change from what would have happened earlier.

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...t-protesters-descend-tahrir-square
On Monday night, after a meeting with the supreme judicial authority, the presidency issued a statement clarifying the decree and stating that Morsi would use the new powers only for "sovereign matters", which is presumed to mean anything that relates to national security.

A counter-protest planned by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups was postponed to avoid confrontation with those inflamed by the perceived power grab. Neither of these concessions was enough to stop the protests.


I'm not defending the decrees he attempted to pass, but I am way less pessimistic about the future of Egypt than the vultures circling here waiting to say "I told you so" because of the word "Islam"...

For one, there is an incredible amount of mainly nonviolent protest energy there and I think that bodes extremely well...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Thing to remember is the transition to democracy is usually hard. The US was pretty unstable after the Revolutionary War and we created a whole government that failed. I'm not defending Morsi but I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon and write off Egypt's revolution as a failure... we can't make that determination in real time, we need to wait a couple years and see where they have gone


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Some interesting facts about Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi

Morsi was born in Northern Egypt, and is the eldest brother of five. He recalls riding a donkey to school.

He earned his bachelor's and Master's degree in Engineering from Cairo University in 1978.

Morsi earned his PhD from the University of Southern California, with his dissertation being "High-Temperature Electrical Conductivity and Defect Structure of Donor-Doped Al2O3."

He was an Assistant Professor at California State University, Northridge, from 1982 to 1985.

An expert on precision metal surfaces, he worked at Nasa on the development of space shuttle engines in the early 1980s.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...-morsi-egypts-accidental-president

not your "average politician"

      Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 40):
Morsi earned his PhD from the University of Southern California, with his dissertation being "High-Temperature Electrical Conductivity and Defect Structure of Donor-Doped Al2O3."

I never did get how a scientist can also be a religious fundamentalist. It's as if you have to turn off half of your brain to believe the crap that they spout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20536323

Quote:
In one of its first steps, the constituent assembly voted to keep sharia, or Islamic law, as the main source of legislation.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 40):
not your "average politician"

Yeah, average politicians, even the sleaziest of the bunch, rarely make full blown authoritative moves. It's very wrong, whether he rode a donkey or in a limousine as a kid



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

News breaking:

Egypt's President Mursi fled the presidential Palace via Helicopter.

Morsi has escaped from the back door of the palace once the protesters surrounded his palace. Al Arabiya bureau chief: We learnt an hour ago that Morsi left Presidential Palace and went to his home

There is a huge protest on Tahrir Sq. Protesters sarcastically chanting: "Where is the helicopter? The Egyptian people are here."

Live stream (Reuters)
http://reuters.livestation.com/demo
This looks like a anti-Mursi protest. I am sure there are also pro-Mursi counter-protests.

My two questions are:
1) which side are the police
2) What will the army do?

   Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2572 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 43):
Morsi has escaped from the back door of the palace once the protesters surrounded his palace. Al Arabiya bureau chief: We learnt an hour ago that Morsi left Presidential Palace and went to his home

Well, this is interesting. A second revolution? Perhaps this one will be less bloody.

Dare we hope that the Egyptians are figuring out that a theocratic government is absolutely positively a guaranteed road to dictatorship?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
Well, this is interesting. A second revolution? Perhaps this one will be less bloody.

Dare we hope that the Egyptians are figuring out that a theocratic government is absolutely positively a guaranteed road to dictatorship?

Well I did hear that most democratic revolutions often have to go through several overthrows (and often bloodshed) to finally get a good, stable government. Not sure if that is true, but I wish the best for the Egyptians. I hope you are right



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Apparently that no protest law isnt workibg.

Sad part it mosy open up the coubtry to thar cookoo's from the muslim britherhood to move in



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

News breaking:
04 December 2012, 20:10 Islamist leader to Al-Arabiya: We will declare jihad if anyone infringes on Morsi's legitimacy.
http://www.naharnet.com/

As President Morsi motorcade leaves Palace, protesters chant "Leave!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S4O5tafMzE0

Twitter:
Tahrir Square is full. The presidential palace is under siege. Anti-Morsi demonstrations are taking place in almost every province.
https://twitter.com/3arabawy

Hosni Mubaraq    Egyptian Spring

Mohammed Mursi    Egyptian Winter?

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 46):
Sad part it mosy open up the coubtry to thar cookoo's from the muslim britherhood to move in

Or other extremists. Extremists offer certainty in times of turmoil. Mind you, they can't actually back up their offers, but they can make the offer.

Also, at a time when the functioning portions of the Egyptian government are already overwhelmed at trying to restore and maintain some semblance of order, it's a lot easier for extremists and terrorists to fly in under the radar.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

2035 GMT: Egypt. Alexandria tonight:
http://www.enduringamerica.com/stora...RESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1354653364443

Egypt. Protests - Reuters live feed
http://reuters.livestation.com/demo

What is to come? Civil war? is it that Egypt is fuxed... or is it just some sparse groups?

   Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 20):
Those are the people we should be encouraging, rather than smugly saying, "I told you so."

Except these people are usually docile and when you encourage them to step forward they actually get killed or run to ground, a lot is accomplished by the vocal manority rather than the silent majority.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 36):
I think it fair to say that Obama wants to ensure the best for America whatever happens just as his predecessor did. Whether that benefits ordinary Egyptians is open to question. but I doubt that you will find a single politician in the US who places the interests of ordinary Egyptians ahead of the interests of the US. If they did, I suspect that you would be the first to condemn them.

Is this not why they were elected, this same is true for all politicians, they are elected as servants of their people.
Whichever side of the political fence one resides, when your nation and its interest are threatned everyone stands together, correction, the vast majority.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Morsi and Obama are buddies.

Quote:
"President Obama has been very helpful, very helpful," Morsi told Time Magazine. "And I can say really that his deeds coincide with his intentions."
Morsi, a critical interlocutor with Hamas, spoke repeatedly with Obama as the parties worked to cement the ceasefire in Gaza.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/2...11/morsi-praises-obama-150564.html



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Cairo situation update:

Reuters Tahrir live cam knocked down.

I wonder if Mursi went to work today. He is said to live in his home and gets ferried to the Palace and back by helicopter or motorcade/minivan.

There is another live cam in Arabic - looks like the protests are heating up. Huge amounts of people at the Presidential Palace. It looks huge!
--http://www.livestream.com/ontveglive--

These protests are about two things (simplified)
A presidential decree and the draft constitution.

The advisery body to president Mursi (2) are said to have resigned
Al Arabiya English ‏@AlArabiya_Eng
#BreakingNews: Two of President Mursi’s advisors resign as conditions escalate

Also Advisor to President Morsi, Seif Abdel Fattah, has resigned.
Al Arabiya English ‏@AlArabiya_Eng
#BreakingNews: Three of President Mursi’s advisors resign as conditions escalate in Egypt

Makes three who have now jumped ship.

Reports of 1 woman and 1 man dead in clashes.
Al Arabiya English ‏@AlArabiya_Eng
#BreakingNews: At least two protesters are killed in Egypt amid clashes outside presidential palace

Baradei says 6-month Morsi 'regime' worse than Mubarak's

Twitter:
AP estimates Egyptian protesters 100,000 in Cairo, 10,000 in Alexandria chanting "erhal, erhal," ("leave, leave")

Sirens being heard on the live cam feed - all is very very noisy.

 Wow!       Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

The problem now is with the constitution, written by Morsi's Islamist allies (the overwhelming majority of the non-Islamists walked out of the writing process), which he wants to put to a referendum on December 15. The constitution is seen by many as being tailor-made to entrench the MB's hold on power, and curtail civil and political liberties. It does not reflect the spirit of the revolutionary movement since Jan 25, 2011.
The people who oppose the situation do so on the grounds that it would simply create another Mubarak (heck, even Mubarak didn't rule by decree, as Morsi plans on doing). The MB and their allies, on the other hand, defend the situation saying that Morsi is an elected president/the opposition are atheistic infidels who whore around Tahrir Square etc. They do not defend the constitution itself, because there is nothing to defend.
To contextualize the situation, the MB is nothing more than a glorified soup kitchen who for years have been building networks of schools, hospitals in rural/poor areas. That is why they are so good at mobilizing supporters/voters. Their political/economic performance has been dismal.
For those who are not aware, the only reason Morsi won in the run-off was because the other candidate, Ahmed Shafik was hugely unpopular with so many people (ties to Mubarak regime). So many non-Islamists/seculars/leftists (i.e. people who probably never imagined they would vote for a MB candidate) voted for Morsi to keep Shafik out. Had it been anyone else other than Shafik, Morsi would have lost. To anyone who assumes that democracy in Egypt=inevitable Islamist victory, I would urge them to look at the results for the first stage of the presidential election. The top 3 non-Islamist candidates got 55% of the vote versus the 42% who went for the 2 Islamist candidates (one was Morsi, the other was a 'reformed' middle-ground liberal Islamist).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_presidential_election,_2012


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

This is getting really ugly
Tanks on the streets in Cairo

  

Muslim Brotherhood starting their crackdown.
Witnesses counted at least five tanks and nine armored personnel carriers around the presidency.

 Wow!

State news agency: Egypt army deploys to protect presidency
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294827

 Wow!

Twitter:
At least five confirmed dead, 446 injured in presidential palace clashes
http://twitter.com/EgyIndependent

 Wow!

CAIRO: BLOOD IN THE STREETS, OBAMA SILENT
As the White House remains completely silent on the most recent events in Egypt – the President has not uttered as much as a peep about the Muslim Brotherhood’s thuggery against democratic protesters, raising memories of his spineless behavior during the Iranian uprising of 2009 – violence is breaking out in the streets of Cairo. According to the latest reports, Islamists are battling seculars en masse using rocks and firebombs and shotguns. Already, several top Morsi backers have resigned from his newly-minted dictatorship, fearful of the backlash from the population.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2...-In-The-Streets-White-House-Silent

 Wow!

Five killed, tanks roll into Cairo as anti-Morsi protests crest
Thousands take to streets in most serious clashes since Mubarak was ousted in 2011

Egypt descended into political turmoil on Wednesday over the constitution drafted by Islamist allies of President Mohammed Morsi, with five people killed and nearly 500 wounded as supporters and opponents battled each other with firebombs, rocks and sticks outside the presidential palace.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/five-ki...ured-as-anti-morsi-protests-crest/

 Wow!

Al Arabiya English ‏@AlArabiya_Eng
#BreakingNews: The highest authority in al-Azhar calls on Egypt's Mursi to freeze constitutional declaration

Egypt Independent ‏@EgyIndependent
BREAKING: Republican Guard forces evacuate the area surrounding the presidential palace, ban protests after 3 pm.
also on Jpost: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294880

Live feed from Cairo (arabic)

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 11
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2402 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Like we didn't see this coming!


The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2394 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 53):
To anyone who assumes that democracy in Egypt=inevitable Islamist victory, I would urge them to look at the results for the first stage of the presidential election. The top 3 non-Islamist candidates got 55% of the vote versus the 42% who went for the 2 Islamist candidates (one was Morsi, the other was a 'reformed' middle-ground liberal Islamist).

I remember watching TV on Christmas in 1989 - soon after the fall of the Berlin Wall, we were basically watching Nicolae Ceausescu's fall from power live. Chased out of his palace by the mob after his security forces went over the top trying to quell opposition, he was found, interrogated, and summarily shot. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy...

I find myself wishing for the same thing to happen to Morsi. Unfortunately, as we have seen with countless despots in spite of riots and mayhem (remember Iraq after the first gulf war, or Iran just a couple of years ago when people hoped that the regime was toast?) have an uncanny ability to not only survive but actually strengthen their hold on power.

So Egyption protesters, my prediction is this: If you fail to unseat Morsi, you will see him cling onto power even more tightly, and the Muslim Brotherhood will be solidly in power for the next couple of generations - Iran on the Mediterranean. Or you can string him up, and tell the world "We got rid of Mubarak for a reason, and the MB was not it. Next!"

My best wishes to the Egyptian people. I've spent some time in Egypt, and apart from your proclivity of desperately trying to cheat every foreign tourist you see, I found the country fascinating and the people warm. Good luck and Stout Hearts.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2032 posts, RR: 6
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood are in power at the leisure of the Egyptian military. If the General's decide things are getting out of hand, then they will throw Morsi and his goons to the wolves.


No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 57):

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood are in power at the leisure of the Egyptian military. If the General's decide things are getting out of hand, then they will throw Morsi and his goons to the wolves.

Don't you remember this summer, when Morsi forced all the top military commanders to 'retire' and replaced them with his own supporters?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/13/wo...ry-chiefs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

With all the talk of how Egypt is regressing, I wonder how many have actually read the draft constitution? The document does include some points that might be considered problematic: for example Part One, Article 2 which establishes Islam as the State religion and Sharia as the principal source of legislation. This is tempered by the next article establishing Canon principles as the source of personal status laws, religious affairs, and the selection of their spiritual leaders
 by Christians and Jews. Article 45 states that freedom of thought and opinion shall be guaranteed.

And goes on to say "Every individual has the right to express an opinion and to disseminate it verbally, in writing or illustration, or by any other means of publication and expression." However this is tempered by the preceding Article: Insult or abuse of all religious messengers and prophets shall be prohibited.

In political terms, it limits the term of the President to two terms, establishes two houses of parliament, sets out the procedures for constitutional amendments which must be put to the popular vote at a referendum, allows for the creation of political parties, stating, "No political party shall be formed that discriminates on the basis of gender, origin or religion."

It also contains economic provisions barring nationalisations, the budget, ownership of natural resources and water and so forth. It establishes rights for worker participation and trade unions. It establishes that private property is inviolable and inheritance is safeguarded.

In an Internet forum I obviously can't provide an in-depth article by article analysis. But the document does include many things that would be found in similar documents in the West. But like many such documents they are open to interpretation and many of its provisions have been criticised for being open to abuse. But I will leave others to read it and make an informed judgment for themselves.

An English translation can be found here -
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news...pt-s-draft-constitution-translated

A further article examining some of controversial points can be found here - http://www.egyptindependent.com/news...on-some-controversial-stipulations


User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 59):
With all the talk of how Egypt is regressing, I wonder how many have actually read the draft constitution? The document does include some points that might be considered problematic: for example Part One, Article 2 which establishes Islam as the State religion and Sharia as the principal source of legislation. This is tempered by the next article establishing Canon principles as the source of personal status laws, religious affairs, and the selection of their spiritual leaders
 by Christians and Jews. Article 45 states that freedom of thought and opinion shall be guaranteed.

In the 1923 constitution, Islam was the state religion. In the new 1971 constitution, Islam became a principle source of legislation, and in 1981 Mubarak amended it to make it the principle source. The 1971 was in effect UNTIL Jan 25th, 2011, but had been amended several times (basically Sadat and Mubarak amending stuff to strengthen the presidency, among other things). If you ask my opinion, basically adapting the pre-amendment 1971 version would be a good idea. Another idea, write up a constitution that states the BASIC stuff (that we're a republic, a two-term presidency, elected assembly, guarantee of civil liberties) if getting the leftists/seculars/Copts/Islamists/liberals/neo-liberals to agree on a document is too difficult.

The council tasked with writing the constitution was heavily skewed towards male Islamists, with a few token 'liberals' (i.e. non-Islamists, whatever their creed), and of course, a few women. The process was a disaster, and practically all the non-Islamists walked out at some point. Not everyone was a constitutional expert/knew what a good constitution should look like, hence you have a few bizarre articles that are basically filler.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 60):
Another idea, write up a constitution that states the BASIC stuff

Agreed. I know that it is common in many countries to establish a state religion, even in many European countries, so I suppose it comes down to how narrowly articles are read and enforced.

One issue that I notice is that unlike in Australia, for example, Article 156 states

Quote:
It is prohibited hold a position in the Cabinet in addition to membership in either the House of Representatives or the Shura Council; if a House or Council Member is appointed to government, their place in Parliament is vacated and the provisions of Article 113 of the Constitution are applied.

Under our Constitution it is a requirement that the Prime Minister and Cabinet Ministers must be a member of either the House of Representatives or of the Senate. This is supposed to provide (at least in theory) for direct accountability, both to the Parliament and to the electorate.

Another issue is that civilians can be tried by military courts. If the military is to be subject to the civil power then the civil courts must be superior to military courts, in my opinion. Civilians should be tried in Civil courts as there is no definition provided of what constitutes acts "that harm the Armed Forces".

Also the question of judges not being able to be dismissed. This invites the risk of corruption, so there needs to be specified in law a procedure for removing a judge. The Australian Constitution provides "S.72 (ii.) [Judges]

Quote:
Shall not be removed except by the Governor-General in Council, on an address from both Houses of the Parliament in the same session, praying for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity;

Still, the draft is far more socially advanced than the Constitutions of most Western Countries. Whatever happens I wish the people of Egypt well and hope that they can progress to a state of freedom and democracy based on mutual respect.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

The decree that granted the president powers to declare emergency laws and shield him from judicial oversight at the centre of current protests has been annulled according to media reports.

Vice President Mahmoud Mekki has said that the referendum on the draft constitution is still planned to go ahead on the 15th December.

A spokesman for President Morsi, Selim al-Awa, announced that,

Quote:
if the draft constitution was rejected, a new one would be drawn up by officials elected by the people, rather than ones chosen by parliament as for the current text.[Emphasis added]



But will this be enough to satisfy protesters?

Not for some, it would seem.

Quote:
"We are no longer calling for scrapping the decree and delaying the referendum," Samir Fayez, a Christian protester, said. "We have one demand in five letters: leave."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-0...pt-army-urges-crisis-talks/4417148

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...egypt-mohamed-morsi-cancels-decree


User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

Morsi has not agreed to postpone the referendum. I do wonder what the results will be. The MB have a clear, vested interest in winning this, and furthermore, are very good at mobilizing their people to vote. I've seen it before, during the referendum, the parliamentary elections, and the presidential elections (both rounds). In the name of religion, they have used many people. They have manipulated others by taking advantage of the extreme poverty of some. But so many see through them, and so many people, even if they are dirt-poor, aren't fooled by their soup kitchen act. That's what I wish those outside Egypt could see before they say 'Egypt isn't ready for democracy'.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 62):
But will this be enough to satisfy protesters?

Not for some, it would seem.

Quote:
"We are no longer calling for scrapping the decree and delaying the referendum," Samir Fayez, a Christian protester, said. "We have one demand in five letters: leave."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-0...pt-army-urges-crisis-talks/4417148

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...egypt-mohamed-morsi-cancels-decree

Back in 2011, getting rid of presidents/corrupt bosses/evil politicians by protesting was still a novelty. Now it's not. I do not think this particular crisis will result in Morsi getting overthrown, but I personally believe that in a short while another issue will come up, and he will do something deeply popular, and even more protests will take place. And of course, say it reaches to this point, Morsi has an army of loyal followers-and quite possibly-links to militant Islamist groups, and possibly the assured neutrality/covert support of the army.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 61):
Another issue is that civilians can be tried by military courts. If the military is to be subject to the civil power then the civil courts must be superior to military courts, in my opinion. Civilians should be tried in Civil courts as there is no definition provided of what constitutes acts "that harm the Armed Forces".

Trying civilians in military courts has been a BIG issue, and again, this is something that many people are unhappy about. Not only is the essence wrong, but as with many articles, there are too many loosely defined terms/concepts that will create problems later IF this constitution is implemented.


User currently onlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 32
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

But surely boycotting the referendum is the opposition shooting themselves in the feet. Wouldn't it be much better if they round up the vote and vote it down so a better one is drawn up? If they boycott the election, and it passes, they will basically have to bring down the government and start all over again. That may be what they want, but at a certain point in a democracy, one has to start voting rather than overthrowing every government that you disagree with, no?


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2060 posts, RR: 20
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2152 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Freedom of speech appears to be anethama to the hardline Islamists. I guess we will continue to see more and more incidents of this kind.


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2032 posts, RR: 6
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 58):

Mubarak had a lot of supporters in the military as well, until they got sick of his BS. One thing the Egyptian military has proven over the years is that they consider themselves above the law. Those newly retired Generals are probably still pulling the strings behind the scenes.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 64):

But surely boycotting the referendum is the opposition shooting themselves in the feet. Wouldn't it be much better if they round up the vote and vote it down so a better one is drawn up? If they boycott the election, and it passes, they will basically have to bring down the government and start all over again. That may be what they want, but at a certain point in a democracy, one has to start voting rather than overthrowing every government that you disagree with, no?

Very true. Bad politicians are voted in by good people who don't vote. Another alternative is if the constitutional referendum is passed, then it's adopted, and then a new parliament is voted in which would then have the power to suspend/abrogate the constitution. But obviously voting down the proposed constitution is the easiest route to take.
I'm not looking forward to the referendum-I have finals and time is of the essence. Sure, you can argue 'but this is your country, if you don't go then don't complain' bla bla, but you have to remember I have gone to vote in this or that 5-6 in less than two years. I voted no in a referendum that was utterly pointless, then I voted twice for a parliament that got dissolved, then I voted twice for a president who didn't win (and the election bitterly divided the country).

Quoting TheCol (Reply 66):
Mubarak had a lot of supporters in the military as well, until they got sick of his BS. One thing the Egyptian military has proven over the years is that they consider themselves above the law. Those newly retired Generals are probably still pulling the strings behind the scenes

Some say Mubarak is still the one pulling the strings. Some say the military has an Islamist faction. Others say the military has some sort of complex deal with the MB/Obama/Israel.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10728 posts, RR: 38
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

It is not like Mursi took power by force.

There was an election where voters had a choice between Shafik and Mursi. He is a democratically elected president.

If they want a new president, they must wait until the next election.

They are behaving like uncivilized animals and this can only make things worse. There will be more injured and more dead and Mursi will have to resolve to Martial Law and maybe even absolute power.

Tahrir/Cairo live stream
--http://www.livestream.com/ontveglive--

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 68):
He is a democratically elected president.

If they want a new president, they must wait until the next election.

They are behaving like uncivilized animals and this can only make things worse.

Do you really believe this? Are you serious? Can you not see the power grabs taken by Mursi? Was he democratically elected to behave like a dictator???



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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